The Ramsey Show - App - DAVE RANT: The Student Loan Program Is an Epic Failure! (Hour 3)

Episode Date: December 5, 2019

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us, America. This is your show. We appreciate you calling in. Phone number is 888-825-5225. Greg starts off this hour in Missouri. Hey, Greg. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show.

Hey, Dave. Thanks so much for taking the call. It's a super honor to talk to you. You too, sir. What's up? Hey, thanks. I am calling. I've got four kids, and kid number four is a freshman in college, and we have modeled avoiding debt and all those things. And she's done very, very well, and she's doing a community college thing right now, so she's got three, two years of college. And then one of the local nursing schools here in Kansas City,

if you'll agree to work for them for three years and possibly changing to two years, you go to nursing school for free. So she is set up for going to college completely free. However, she went to a really small little Christian school, lots of friends, and she doesn't have as many friends now in the community college environment. And there's not tons of kids at church because, you know, most of them are off to college. And so she's definitely suffering from, you know, just being lonely and wanting friends and things like that. So she has got it in her head that she can go to Columbia, to Mizzou, go to their junior college and take one class at the university and then, you know, do the dorm thing and all that, but by going to one class and then do the junior college thing. But it's still going to cost more than $9,000 a year. And so if she did

it for the next three semesters,'s you know a minimum 15 18 thousand dollars trying to convince her it's not a good idea and um i'm kind of hoping to maybe uh that you could help uh give me something to chat with her about this evening to try to maybe put this out of her head and i understand completely why she wants to do it but um trying to find some wisdom on how to convince her it's not a good idea. And where's the money coming from? Well, that's it. She wants to borrow the money, and we're like,

well, she knows how we feel about it. But the other thing is she said, well, Dad, I'm going to get a job. I'm going to start at $48,000. I'll be able to pay that off. And I'm like, really? And we're just going round and round and just trying to do it, you know, in a godly way and not to beat her up and not to, you know, I just want to win her heart and get her to understand that that's just not the way to do it. Yeah. If it was my daughter, I guess I would just tell her I was really sad that she felt like she had to spend $15,000 of borrowed money to get a friend.

Well, that's a good thought, too, actually. That's sad. It's sad that her social life has degraded that far, that she's willing to spend $15,000 for some friends. Yeah, well, I understand the whole dorm environment. I know why she wants to do it, but I just don't. But, I mean, this has nothing to do with education. You want to spend $15,000 to go to college camp.

That's it. You're right. It's like you want to go to summer camp to get a friend, and you want to spend $15,000 to do it. And, honey, I've got to tell you, as your as your dad i love you and i just think that's stupid i just i just really i mean i i i affirm why you want to do it i understand that you want social connections i get all of that but that that method of solving your social issue i mean you can for fifteen thousand dollars you you can rent an apartment and just drive up there and hang out.

Yeah. She's gone on the weekends to visit some friends, and we're like, let's just keep doing that for the next three semesters. Yeah. And, honey, I've got to tell you, you've grown up in a house where we don't borrow money, and there's some other stuff we don't do in this house. And as for me in my house, this is how we behave and you know that that's not new

to you and um this is not something that we're going to endorse and the reason we're not going to endorse it is the same reason we don't endorse you doing drugs the same reason we don't endorse you sleeping around all over the place is it's not good for you that's good Dave yeah because I love you and um I'm I'm you know my kids when they went to school it was like guys the way you get to go to college free is I'm paying for it and since I'm paying for it um it's Dave's rules and Dave's rules are you know we're not sleeping around we don't do drugs uh we're going to church and uh we're walking a righteous clean life we're gonna have fun i want you to have fun i want you to have friends i want you to have all that we're not we're not sticks in the mud or anything like

that remsies like to party we're hillbillies but but we're not gonna we're not gonna get ourselves in trouble we're not gonna be out getting you know ended up in the dadgum jail drunk or something i mean we're just not gonna this stuff. It's not how we behave. And by not doing that, that is your job. And I'm going to pay you for that job, meaning you get to go to school free. I'm paying for it. And you cease to do that, I'm going to cease to write these checks. And I'm going to cease to support you emotionally.

I'm going to cease to support you spiritually. You're, you know, because I'm doing, and I'm doing all of that for you spiritually you're you know because i'm doing and i'm doing all of that for you i get nothing out of this exactly except the satisfaction of being a dad but i mean i get nothing out of this otherwise yeah so i i think you just got to sit down and talk about this is what is good for you and what are we really solving for here what's the real issue? She's probably not got it in her head the way you're describing it. And if she ever saw it that way, she'd realize how kind of silly it is.

I'm spending $15,000 for friends. Yeah, that's really it. And it's not going to be worth it down the road when she's still paying on it 10 years from now. It's not going to be worth it down the road when she's still paying on it 10 years from now. It's not going to be worth it ever. There's never a situation in your life where you spend $15,000 for friends. Yeah, that's good. At no stage of life in no place would you do that ever. At any age.

Yeah, that's right. You know, there's not when you're 82, not when you're 22, not when you're 37 with two kids. There's not a time when you spend $15,000, especially going into debt for it, to have friends, to have a social life. That's a false dichotomy. It's a false set of logic. And once you get it laid out there and you go, honey, I get it. Okay, you're empathizing with her, but we're not going to sympathize with her. We're not going to join her in her delusionary decision-making here.

Right. But I get you're being a, you know, you got a soft heart as a dad. You understand your daughter wants to have connectivity, and, you know, and you guys are probably in a small town or a smaller area there, and a lot of her buddies went off. But, I mean, I had one that said, hey, all my buddies are going to Mississippi, and I said, that's great.

You're not. Well, it's $14,000 more a year to go to Mississippi from Tennessee than it is to go to Tennessee. They're both Southeastern Conference schools. Neither one of them are playing much football. So, I mean, it's just both good educations, right? And so we had this discussion. I'm like, so, you know, who's going to pay the other $14,000?

Not me. And if you think you're going to go into debt and borrow it, then that means you're not going to get any of the other money because I'm not going to participate and you're crazy because you're crazy is going to bring pain to your future life. Your decision-making skills are wrong. You don't go to a college chasing a boy you don't go to a college chasing a friend you don't go to a college because your buddies in high school are going there you go to a college to get an education not to have the college experience the college

experience is a byproduct of being on the campus but you don't pay 15 00015,000 for friends. It's a good discussion. Thanks for calling in. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. I just love it when companies we work with make it a point to be outrageously generous, especially during the holiday season. Once again this year, Zander Insurance will donate 25% of all sales from their ID Theft Protection Plan in December to Operation Homefront, a very special organization that provides emergency financial assistance and housing to our wounded veterans and their families. To date, Zander has raised and donated over $300,000 with your help. That's amazing. And if you don't have ID theft protection, there's no better time to get it.

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25% of the student loans are in default. Do you know why? Because you and I are idiots. We, the taxpayers, have allowed our moronic Congress and federal government to become the largest lender of consumer debt in America today, and we have guaranteed these loans. You and I have guaranteed them, the taxpayers. The federal government has guaranteed the loans,

and if they're not repaid we pick up the bill and 25 of them are in default do you know why because 18 year olds want to move onto a college campus and go 15000 in debt to have friends. And you and I are making that loan, because Congress continues this plague on America of this firehose is open of money loaned to 18-year-olds with absolutely no guidelines. You can take out a student loan while you're in college and go buy a car with the money. You can move on to a campus when you have a perfectly good free education available to you in your local community college and nursing program,

and go $15,000 in debt, and then it doesn't work out because you got married and there was a car wreck and you had to take care of him, your child is ill and you had to take care of them, and so that job you thought you were going to do that was going to justify this debt is gone because you used an 18-year-old, 17-year-old brain to make the decision to borrow money to go get friends. This is why we have an epics problem in America. This is why we have a plague in America.

And I'm not mad at that dad he's doing a good job of working with that little daughter of his and he's trying to convince her and persuade her and that's what we all do with children as they grow if you want them to grow up and leave they have to have critical thinking skills so they don't live in your basement till they're 40 and they develop critical thinking skills by discussing it with them and persuading them rather than just making them do stuff. If you just make them do stuff, you raise Stepford children who don't have any skills at all on how to live a life.

But when you teach them how to live life and why to live life, like he's doing with her, he's doing an excellent job with that. But this idea that you and I are continuing to make these loans, and this is the decision-making profile. A young lady called me from South Carolina. She wants to go to Mississippi to school from South Carolina. Now, South Carolina's got in-state tuition, $8,000 a year, or it's $11,000 a year, I'm sorry.

They've got in-state tuition at Clemson's $14,000 a year, and she wants to go to Mississippi, and out-of-state tuition is $20,000 a year. So she's going to pay $6,000 more a year than she would pay at Clemson, $9,000 more a year than she would pay at South Carolina. And you know why she wanted to go to Mississippi instead of to South Carolina? It was in-state tuition. And go in debt to do it, by the way. The houses in the town are pretty.

On what planet would a banker lend someone money that thinks like that? No planet except planet Congress. No planet would a banker that has half of two brain cells to rub together and says, you want to go into debt because the houses look pretty, instead of going to school at home and paying cash for it. These are not people you loan money to if you are a wise lender. And yet you and I have done it 1.6 trillion times as taxpayers. The federally insured student loan program is an absolute

epic failure. It is destroying people's lives because we're financing stupidity at a rate that is blinding. And I'm not talking about financing education. We're financing stupidity

the houses are pretty or i want friends is financing stupidity and you and i are doing it because your congress continues to make these loans and some of the left-winger dingers are out there running around going we need to forgive all the student loans and none of them are talking about stopping making them how can you talk about forgiving them while you're still making them that's intellectual dishonesty that's political hogwash guys this thing is a mess. It's an absolute mess. And it's going to cause economic problems eventually. Because eventually, I mean, you have a 25% default rate.

You understand, if you're running a business and your job was to be a lender, and you had a 25% default rate on one of your product lines, you would shut that sucker down and call it a failure. But you know what the Department of Education is talking about? We're going to separate the largest lender. DeVos came out this week, said we're going to talk about separating the lending section from the rest of the Department of Education because the lending section is one of the largest consumer lenders in the world today. Why?

Because we want to lend to little Sally because the houses are pretty. And we're just dumber than a rock we are because you keep voting the morons in that keep this program in place. And none of you have called your congressman and said, stop this. You can start calling them today. Call your senator. It looks to me like they need some distractions up there. They ain't got nothing to do. So, seriously, they need to stop this.

This is asinine, you guys. You will loan $145,000 without any collateral to an 18-year-old on the hope that as an art major, they're going to get a job and pay this crap back. You and I are stupid. We are horrible bankers. This is what socialism does. This is what stuff does. It says, this is how you work. how life works the government takes it over it'll all be better this is the dmv running a bank that's what you got here it's absolutely asinine and it's one of the largest banks in the world and it's got a 25 default rate and you and i with our taxpayer dollars and the debt they borrow in our name up there

are paying for this misbehavior guys really it's just stupid you want to know more am i starting to tickle your anger bone yeah well you need to get in touch with your senator and your congressman tell them to do something worthwhile stop this crap pull plug. It is time to end the federally insured student loan program. It is an epic failure. It is a plague on America. Well, let's tell them children won't get to go to school. Yes, they will. They can do a thing called get a job.

The average in-state tuition is $8,000 a year, $10,000 a year. That's $833 a month. You can make $1,000 a year. $10,000 a year. That's $833 a month. You can make $1,500 a month delivering pizzas. Shut up and go to work and go to school. Gripe at me. Tell me you can't go to school. You don't live in the real world. Yes, I do.

I live in a world where we use mathematics and arithmetic, which is something you learn when you go to school. Stop this stuff, guys. Check out this podcast, Borrowed Future. There's eight episodes on our website. Borrowed Future. It will blow your mind how predatory this industry is. It's out of control. Matthew and Ashley in Dallas, Texas are on the line with their debt-free scream.

Merry Christmas, guys. How y'all doing? Hey, Jay. Merry Christmas. Cool. How much you guys paid off? $75,000. How long did this take? 18 months. Good for you guys. Well done. And your range of income during that time?

We were starting at $90,000 and we are up to $120,000. Good for you. And what do you guys do for a living? I'm a forecast analyst at one of the largest travel companies. And I'm a contract administrator. Okay. Very cool. What kind of debt was the $75,000? Two credit cards, two loans, car loans, and two student loans. Just kind of normal then? Yeah, bobbing along. I hear you, man. And how old are you two?

I'm 29. 29. And how long have you been married? For about two and a half years now. Okay. So just after getting married, you kind of look down at the budget 18 months ago when you say uh this something needs to change tell me your story what happened so actually um about about three years ago i was listening to a lot of like

financial podcasts and i was i was uh eager to start investing into the stock market. And I would, every month I would look at my budget and I would, you know, end up with just a couple bucks. So I really didn't have any money to invest. So I ran into your podcast, you know, under financial podcasts and everything you're, as soon as I, you know, started listening to the podcast everything clicked everything was making sense and we just had too much payments too much money was going out so um so i screenshot uh like a all your baby all the baby steps of my wife that day and i told her we need to get on this plan. So when I came home, I was fired up.

I was ready to go. I was 110% all the way in. And she was kind of on the fence, like, I don't know, because we still had our money separated. You know, we were still, we weren't fully doing the Dave plan. And a couple months went by. You know, I was trying to get her on board, and I bought her the Total Money Makeover book so she could listen to it in her car

on the way to work. And the day after she listened to it, she was fully on board. There we go. Game on. You just needed the rest of the information, didn't you, Ashley? Yeah, especially with divorce being one of the main reasons for divorce being money problems. I figured we need to, you know, tackle this head on, like early in our marriage, so that we won't have a problem with that going forward. That makes sense. So when you're listening to the audio book in your car what was it that caused the switch to flip when you heard that you went yeah we need to do this was it talking about divorce or talking about something else uh changing the family tree um being able to do for our kids that things that

we didn't have for ourselves growing up so yeah just being able to live life yeah you just you needed a good why didn't you you needed a reason to do this bigger than just getting out of debt yes why are we going to sacrifice why would we go through all this trouble and once you've got a why you can do almost anything right exactly true yeah well done. Yeah. Well done, you guys. Well done. So what do you tell people? I'm sorry? I said we appreciate your guidance.

Now that you've done this, what do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? I say dedication, communication, and discipline. And I say it's mind over matter. Just being happy with what you have, sticking to the budget, and going all the way in. Yeah. No Dave-ish. I love it. Yeah, you've got to completely do the plan or you're not going to get the results. Yeah.

That's right. Well done, guys. Very proud of y'all. Congratulations. Who were your biggest cheerleaders outside the two of you? Just us. Honestly, we had a lot of people saying, y'all are crazy. That's not going to work.

You're always going to be in debt. Everybody knows that. Yeah. Not everybody. Not everybody. Well done, you guys. Very, very proud of you. We've got a copy of Chris Hogan's Everyday Millionaire's book for you.

That's the next chapter in your story. It's a number one bestseller, how anyone can become a millionaire, and you're going to be one. That's your next chapter. You're head on. How old are you two again? You're 29? Yes. Oh, yeah.

You are on your way. Rocking it. Well done, well done, well done. All right, Matthew and Ashley, Dallas, Texas, $75,000 paid off in 18 months, making $90,000 to $120,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. All right. Three, two, one.

We're debt-free! Yeah! Yeah! Ha, ha, one, we're dead free! Yeah! Change your family tree. I love it. That'll cause you to do stuff right there. There's something about a lot of couples, they start really bearing down and really actually doing the baby steps when they have their first child.

Because when you have that first child and you bring it home, it's like a wake-up call, like, this just got real. We are now like grown-up people because we have the little people. We are no longer the little people. And it just, man, it gives you that. There's a nobility to being a mommy and a daddy that makes you go, I think I need to do this adult thing differently. That's very cool.

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the promo code while you're there to get a better deal it's always a magic word ramsey deborah's in california with our question they have a contribute to a 401k at work there's no match should i continue with the 401k or just invest in growth stock mutual funds? Well, you always want to have your investing in baby step four, 15% going into retirement, into some kind of a retirement program. Now, inside your 401k, there should be growth stock mutual funds. Inside your Roth IRA, there should be gross stock mutual funds. But I would not invest in mutual funds until you've maxed out everything else outside of a retirement account. So I would do it inside the 401k.

If you've got good options there to pick, or you can do Roth IRAs if you prefer, since you don't have a match. I probably would do Roth before I did a non-matching traditional 401k, even if the options were great. Now, your 401k may be able to do a Roth. And if you've got a 401k that's a Roth with good options, that's a fine place to put it. No problem there. It's the equivalent of a Roth IRA that has fine options. We suggest you always invest in four types of mutual funds. And I personally do this in my

personal 401k i don't tell you to do stuff i'm not personally doing and i put a fourth of my investing in growth a fourth in growth and income a fourth in aggressive growth a fourth in international and i'm always looking for long track records that have a great rate of return and that have beat the S&P, the Standard & Poor's 500 Index, which is the bellwether, the baseline of the stock market. And so you need to outperform the market with your mutual fund selections, and not all mutual funds outperform the market with your mutual fund selections and not all mutual funds outperform the market as a matter of fact over half of them don't so you need to pick carefully growth growth and income aggressive growth and international and if you want to sit

down with someone to help you do that we are not in the investment business at ramsey solutions but because for 30 years i've been on the radio talking about this a bazillion of you have asked with someone to help you do that. We are not in the investment business at Ramsey Solutions. But because for 30 years I've been on the radio talking about this, a bazillion of you have asked me about it. We put together a network of investment professionals. We call them SmartVestor Pros that we have done due diligence on. We have vetted them. We feel great about endorsing them. And they're going to give you advice very similar to what you hear here on this show, not contradictory to my advice.

And so you can click on SmartVestor at DaveRamsey.com. It'll drop down a list of the pros in your area. You pick which one you want. Sit down. They'll have the heart of a teacher. You'll learn, and you can start your investing. You can learn about those four types. You can learn how to pick a fund.

They'll help you do all of that. But you learn. Don't put money in stuff because I said to. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day, 2 Timothy 1.7 For God gave us a spirit not of fear, but of power and love and self-control. Winston Churchill says, Success is not final, failure is not not fatal it is the courage to continue the counts Merry Christmas America welcome to the Dave Ramsey show open phones at 888-825-5225

this is common sense for your dollars and cents giving you the same advice your grandmother would only we keep our teeth in. Brian is with us in Missouri. Hey, Brian, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, thank you. I was just curious about whether I should go ahead and completely turn off all my 401k entries, for lack of a better word, when I start my debt snowball January 1. Yes, sir.

Or my step one. Yes, sir. That's what we teach. You know why? Even at 56. You know why? Why? For more money?

No. Because what you focus on is what you win at. Okay. Are you married? Yes, sir. You had to turn off the old girlfriends in order to turn her on yeah you got to turn off the 401k in order to get that in order to get out of debt what you focus on is what you went at it's a temporary thing it's very short term. How much debt have you got? $44,000.

Well, not unsecured, but $39,000 unsecured and $3,400 in a vehicle loan. Okay. That's all. That's $44,000 to pay off. And what's your household income, sir? I think $88,000. I make $42,000, $41,000 an hour, somewhere in there. Good for you.

Okay. And so making $88,000, how fast do you pay off $44,000? I'm hoping 18 months or less. Yeah, 18 to 2 years is what I'm thinking. And that's how much you're going to miss out on putting money in your 401K. But here's the payback. When you don't have any payments but a house payment and you get ready to load that 401k up it's game on baby you can go to 15 not even think about it but when you try to do two things at once keep dating the old girlfriend and still get engaged it just doesn't work

all right what you focus on is what works and that's the only reason i do it it's mathematically incorrect but it works because personal finance is 80 behavior you gotta lean on this debt to extract it from your life you can wander into debt but you cannot wander out it is an and it is an act of extreme visceral intentionality you have to get pissed off and say, I'm done. I'm not living like this anymore. And that's what you've done. You've done the math. You've laid it out.

And so we tell folks to temporarily, temporarily, temporarily, 18 months worth, stop your 401K while you knock this baby out. You're right on track, man. Hey, thank you for calling. It's a good question. Lee is in Florida. Hi, Lee. How are you on track, man. Hey, thank you for calling. It's a good question. Lee is in Florida. Hi, Lee. How are you? Hi, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. How can I help? Well, I've been teaching my son your program since he was about

nine. He recently joined the Navy. He already had baby step three taken care of before going to boot camp. And during boot camp, he immediately started his 15% as Roth TSP and had saved up enough for a $3,000 short car. Wow. He was thinking fun. He was doing really, really well. But that freedom happened as soon as he got out of boot camp. He's been spending like Congress on random purchases like video games.

He's blown through his car fund, now part of another sinking fund. How do I get my child to understand he's spending his future because he's not slowing down um it's one of the most difficult stages of parenting when your children become adults because sadly stupid is not illegal. And using your mom voice on a young man who just completed boot camp after he's been listening to a drill sergeant, he can't even hear you. True. He can't even hear you. So he was taught all of this at home, correct?

Correct. Well well through your programs we started with the fpu junior and then the homeschool curriculum and then when we facilitated fpu at our local military chapel he was always with us and so you guys are in the military too you're in the military too his dad was or is his dad is a chief yes okay i i would uh uh do y'all are you anywhere near him geographically uh same state different bases he's about perfect i think six hours away perfect uh during the holidays the chief needs to sit down with the newly uh graduated boot camp kid and discuss with him not father to son but chief in the military to stupid young military guy and put his arm around him and say don't be stupid because we work with military all over the world and i'll

tell you this every just about every base when you leave the base on each side of the road for the next two miles is every stupid human trick can be done i mean money and otherwise it's like it's like dumb dumb dumb dumb stupid stupid stupid all the way down the road i mean as soon as you come out of the base it's like a like a carnival of stupidity and and these young guys are down there it's their first paycheck and they're and they're feeling pretty jacked up because they've just come through and their bodies are in better shape than they've ever been and uh they they feel bulletproof and uh they walk out and they just go right down the stupid gauntlet and so you really have to prepare but i gotta tell you i i do not be an unusual young man that's gonna listen to his mommy in this scenario

but i bet the chief i bet the chief could put the little burr head in the headlock and get his attention okay am i wrong i don't know he's set to spend her i'm just that's not like a mom i'm talking about how to get through his thick little head okay and it's it's the chief he listen you know why he's in the military because his dad's his hero right okay i hope so well i mean if he hated dad, he likely wouldn't have gone to the military. You're right. So I'm guessing he admires his father. Yes, sir.

Which is a wonderful thing. Not many people have that in this world today. Good dads are very, very valuable. And so dad can walk down and have not a dad son discussion, but say, listen, as chief, I have watched a bunch of you little burr heads come out of boot camp and just completely destroy the next five years of your life because you act like you're in Congress and you're spending. And he does not need to quote you one time, leave you out of the conversation. I'm sorry, but you don't have much power anymore in this conversation. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

No, absolutely not. I'm trying to think like a bullheaded, stubborn 18-year-old because I was one. Long time ago, but I was one. You know? And so I'm trying to think who can get through to that guy because he's got testosterone pumping right now coming out of boot camp like never before in his life. it through to that guy because he's got testosterone pumping right now coming out of boot camp like never before in his life he's square shoulder strutting around you know you hear me i do i do

yeah and and mom voice ain't gonna cut through that i don't think i might be wrong i'm just thinking like a guy here it's not working i've tried several times as an accountability partner to talk to him and and he just he, okay, Mom, okay, Mom. But then the next thing I know, he's spending it again. I'm on his bank account from when he was 17. I can see the purchases, and he's just spending, and he's not listening. Yeah. So during the holidays, Chief just has a cup of coffee with him in person

and says, I've seen this all my life in the military. Don't be one of the stupid ones. You know better. We taught you at home. Don't be one of the stupid ones. Now, be a man, and man make manly decisions, and that's the ability to delay pleasure for a greater good. And in soldiering, that's what you're doing,

and in saving, that's what you're doing. You're delaying pleasure for a greater good. It is an indication of emotional maturity. Manhood is not how square your shoulders are, boy. Okay? And he can walk them through that. I got a feeling Chief's got those same kind of words inside of him. I can tell by the way this whole family structure's gone down.

That's what I'm looking at. Proud of you guys. Tell Chief thanks for his service. Tell your son thanks for his service. We love both of them. That puts this hour of the Dave Ramsey Show in the books. Our thanks to James Childs, our producer Kelly Daniel, our producer, associate producer

and phone screener. I am Dave Ramsey, your host and we'll be back before you know it. In the meantime remember there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus. Hey, it's Kelly, associate producer and phone screener for The Dave Ramsey Show. If you would like to do your debt-free scream live on the show, make sure you visit DaveRamsey.com slash show and register. We would love for you to come to Nashville and tell Dave your story.