The Ramsey Show - App - Debt Holds You Back From Opportunity (Hour 2)

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

Career, Home Selling, Debt As heard on this episode: Sign Up for a FREE trial of Ramsey+ TODAY: https://bit.ly/3rZTUAx Tools to get you started:  Debt Calculator: https://bit.ly/2Q64HME Insurance Coverage Checkup: https://bit.ly/3sXwUn5 Complete Guide to Budgeting: https://bit.ly/3utmVXi Check out more Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3fHhbVE

We'll be right back. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show, where we help you live your best life by being healthy, relational, successful, professional, and peaceful financially. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, George Campbell. We are here for you this hour, 888-825-5225, 888-825-5225. It's a free call. And we're going to meet you where you are and give you a hope-filled plan of what you need to do next to get where you want to be.

Let's get it started in Salt Lake City, Utah. Brett joins us there. Brett, how can we help? Hey, what's up, guys? I'm 34, married with five kids. I'm a high school auto shop teacher, and I have a pretty good thing going. I've been doing it for six years.

My wife and I are getting on the same page financially, finally. We've been paying off a lot of debt, and I have some retirement starting. It feels great. Uh, but my wife has moved all around and she lived in the South. She wants to get back to the South. Too many Mormons in Utah. She wants to get out. I've lived here my whole life. I've lived here my, I've lived here my whole life, and so I'm a little timid. We have a mortgage and a HELOC. So the HELOC is the sore spot.

And the kicker is we have five kids, but we don't have our basement finished. So she needs more room for the kids, and she says, hey, if you get a teaching job in the South, you could sell the house. We owe about $180,000 plus $53,000 on the HELOC. We can sell the house for $550,000, $560,000, and buy something cheaper in the South. And have more space for the kids, trade our life here for a life there, Sell the house. Brett, I think your wife's making a lot of sense. What's the holdup? Are you just scared?

What do you want George and I to say? I think your wife's got a really nice pitch. No, listen. I know, but I've got a good gig here. I get, you know, the teacher job is great. Love the kids. My work contributes 10% to my 401K. And before I got this job, I had no savings.

I was terrible with money. So we've got 10% going to 401k. That's free money. That's part of my compensation. It doesn't come out of my salary, household income. I make 72. She makes about 10 doing eyelash extensions and coaching gymnastics. I'm just scared to leave my good thing because I'm afraid,

and I've looked into other states, they're not going to have as good a retirement and the pay won't be quite as good. So you've looked at specific southern locations that she's kind of said, I'd be willing to go here. You looked at teacher salaries. She said Texas to North Carolina, the traditional south. I've been looking, and, you know, more stuff's going to pop up. Right, and so, and again, just to clarify, you haven't found a location in any of those states,

whatever the range is, where you're making $75,000 and you've got a good 401k? No. Everything on Indeed is showing $55,000, and then you have to pay into the state retirement. It's not a, you know, you can't get into a 401k. But I don't think this is a, I think you called with presenting kind of a money slash employment work question. Well, I think this is a relationship issue. Before we get to the HELOC, we're going to address the money and the work stuff. That's what you've presented.

I think this is a relationship issue. How big of a deal is it to the wife to get out of Utah? I just need to know. It may not be that big of a deal. How big of a deal is it? It's a major deal. She lives in Georgia, Louisiana. She wants the kids.

She thinks the South is great. We've traveled the South. I think life is a little slower, a little simpler. Hey, look, we couldn't afford to buy our house now. The market has gone so crazy. Right. All right, so here's why I asked the question. If it's not going to go away, if she's not going to keep bringing this up,

then you're going to have to get realistic about what a move looks like and how you're going to make the money you want to make. You're going to have to really consider that. I mean, you could put her off on this and go, hey, I don't know. But, I mean, that's the key issue. No, I'm open to it. I'm open to it. Okay.

I just don't feel like we'll have it. You know, I'm painting my picture with the Dave Ramsey, saving that 401K, hit the roth right do all these things and i'm finally starting to see some traction and i'm just scared that i've got it too good i think you have a false narrative i i think you need some more facts i know you've done some research and i'm not doubting you but i think there's a false narrative that you can't make the money you make now and also find a really great investment strategy whether it's through the school system are you doing it yourself george yeah speak to the, I think he's hung up on that 401k and I understand why.

Sure. Well, there's free money there, but here's the thing. You've got a lot going on. You've got a pile of debt to clean up. Are you investing past the 10% or is that it? I've been doing a few hundred a month and I've been doing a few hundred in the Roth. Okay. Well, currently you're following Brett's plan because our plan says you're pausing all investing while we get rid of the debt and you have a fully funded emergency fund. Do you guys have an emergency fund? Uh, no, we just have the thousand. We're still on baby step two. So to your point, my question is, should I'm, I'm worried about losing out on the compound interest if I stop investments to pay off this $53,000 HELOC. If I go crazy at it, it's going to take me six years, eight, seven years.

If you were worried about compound interest, you would have been investing when you were 22. And so let's not be worried about that right now. Let's be worried about cleaning up the debt because then you're not going to be investing 10% plus $100. You're going to be investing 15, and you're going to be investing for your kid's college and have all that money for those five sweet kids of yours to go to college debt-free and for you to pay off your house rent. They're on their own for college. Oh, they're on their own.

Hey, there you go. I'm just trying to retire my wife and I. Well, dude, I'm trying to put you on a path. I'm just trying to retire my wife and I. All right, so clarification. No, I'm listening. Is the HELOC the only debt? Do you have credit cards, car payment, nothing else? Nothing. Nothing. That's what I thought. Is the HELOC the only debt? Correct. Do you have credit cards, car payment, nothing else?

Nothing. Nothing. That's what I thought. So the HELOC is the only debt. And we've dug ourself out of that, so you know. What do you mean you dug yourself out? Well, you haven't. Well, you mean you had more.

I'm saying we've recently come to this spot where we have paid off. We got rid of the car with the payment. We've come here. We're doing better. We've got the HELOC and the mortgage left. That's it. Yeah, okay. He's worked his way down to the HELOC. Sure look yeah my wife wants more space for the kids I listen no

dude let me just tell you something right now your wife wants out of Utah the more space for the kids is a secondary I know listen dude I've been married almost 24 years I think you got more homework to do you can invest invest if you sell the house. George, here's where I'm going on the financial piece. I already got the math. If he sells the house and they have a really huge, they pay off the HELOC, pay off the house, they've got a huge down payment in a house in the southeast. You'll have $300K even after closing. A huge down payment. And you can get caught up on the investment strategy, whether or not the school's got a great plan or not.

Am I right, George? Yes. You need to be investing 15% of your income. I don't want you relying on one certain employer for your retirement plan. You need to be doing this out of your own budget. I get that. And so you'll get, I love the free money. It's a great plan. And the truth is cost of living in the South may be a lot cheaper than where you're at. So that 72, making 55, 60 might feel just the same because of cost of living, especially when you have a $300,000 down payment and now your mortgage is real small, if one at all.

Now you feel like you're rich. Yeah, listen, you've got to do your research, man. The South has got all kinds of great places to live. Hey, I moved to the South from the North, and I'll tell you, game changer. He's not going back, folks. I'm here. What's a Boston boy who loves the Southeast? That's right.

Sell. Move to the South. That's right. Sell. Move to the South. Happy wife. Happy life. No debt. Investing. I'm excited for him. I'm actually excited.

Yeah. I'm telling you right now. More research is needed. Stop coming up with excuses to keep that 401k. That is not the big time play. All right. Good stuff, George. Thank you for the call breath

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started today. That's ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax. All right, Jess is up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Jess, how can we help? Hi, how are you guys doing today? We're having a blast. What are you doing? Oh, Lord, my mind's just racing. Good. I just wanted to try and source through kind of a shortish, long-termish goal that I have, my husband and I have, and I want to, I need help in having a plan of when or roundabouts I can quit my job. My husband might be, well, more than likely is getting a promotion here that's going to be replacing my income. Wow.

We are on baby step six right now. Good for you. And thank you. We have a mortgage balance right now of $274,000 and have 1.3 in investments. Wow. We don't want to pull and pay like a capital gains tax on there to pay off the mortgage. We feel, and a lot of it was inherited by his father who's passed away years ago, but we feel like his dad would want us to work to pay off the house rather than just, you know, here you go, pay off the house.

What is your income? What will it be? He's going to replace your salary with his promotion. So what's the new number going to be, income-wise, both of you together? So right now we're making about $81,000 a year. And then he probably will bid in for about $120,000 a year in salary. So what will be the combined income when he gets the promotion um if we were to combine we'd be at probably about um well he'd be at like 120 i'd be so about 160 if we combined

all of it yeah yeah good i just wanted to know all right so let's just move us forward now to this i love the way you described it short short-termish, long-termish goal. I think we're talking about a dream here. What's the dream for you? What is it? I want to stop working. I am fed up with my industry. It's very hostile, and especially with COVID, I had to shut my business down last year just because COVID stuff and also just, it was a smart move

to do before, you know, all the inflation and the rent increases in my area have just gone through the roof. Are you doing this now? Or you shut it down and reopened it? What do you do? No, so I'm a massage therapist. So I closed down my business and then I've been working in a higher end, like kind of a spa area. And it's just been, it's been very hostile and that's how it's been throughout my whole career. I've been doing this 20 years. I'm sorry about that. Yeah. So is the dream to just quit and go home or to quit and go do something else? Well, that's kind of what my husband and I have talked about. He's like, Hey, you know, if I get this job, you could just potentially quit and then dabble in things to try and figure

out what it is that you'd like to do. But I'm kind of feeling like, you know, maybe if I just take a couple of years off and just kind of be a at home wife all the time. We don't have kids. But part of me feels like, well, am I wrong in thinking that I should take some time off and then just figure out what I want to do? No, no, no. And it sounds like your husband doesn't think that's wrong either. He's actually even saying, do it and dabble. You're going, I just don't want to do anything for two years.

That might change you might get home six months later and go i'm ready for some dabbling but the reality is there's nothing wrong with what you're doing and financially you guys are in such great shape that with his increase in income and if you decide to dabble down the line you guys can easily pay this house off so is that why you called permission to leave? Yes. It is granted. First of all, you didn't need it. George granted George. I think we grant her permission. Yeah. The reason why we teach the baby steps is not because we're obsessed with money. It's because it gives us freedom and options and meaning. And that's exactly what you guys get to experience. Now I would still have a goal to pay

off this house quickly. Maybe say, Hey, we're going to put $60,000 on the house every year, and we're going to pay this thing off in less than five years. That's an awesome goal. So I would stay the course on that and not lose focus on finishing out these baby steps so you can live and give like no one else. But the idea of her being able to do that and go home and figure it out and find that dream of hers, whether that's staying home or going back to work eventually, that's amazing. Most people don't have that kind of flexibility. Yeah. So Jess, are you hearing what George is saying? He's absolutely right.

Because you're not, even though you're going to potentially for a season, whatever it looks like, not make any money, your husband's promotion is replacing that. So you guys should be able to continue keeping on marching towards paying that house off and honoring what you said your husband's father's wishes are. Do you understand that? So we keep moving forward on the baby steps. Get to baby step seven. Right. Yeah. I just want to make sure that I'm not being selfish by saying I just don't want to work right now. No, wait, no. But see, that's not what you're saying. I'm so glad you brought that up. You are not saying, Jess, I'm just not going to work right now. What you're saying is I've been in a toxic environment for 20 years.

That's what you said earlier in the call. You are in such a great financial position because of the fact that you and your husband have walked the baby steps out, and you're in a season where you need that break. How good is it right i mean what good is it jess to be in baby step six moving towards baby step seven get into baby step seven and be absolutely burned out that's not fun at all no nor is it necessary right and the thing that i'm so close that it's, do I just suffer through it? No. Because that was the other thought, is working until the house gets paid off.

No, okay, okay. All right, so I'm glad you brought this up. How much money, again, do you make as a massage therapist? I'm about, it depends, but let's just say this year I made $42,000. Okay, great. For the year. What if you take two, three months, you fill in the blank. I don't care.

We get out of the toxic situation. We get some rest. We get healthy. Your head gets clear. And now you can begin to go, well, what could I do? No pressure for a long-term career commitment here. But what could I do using your husband's word, dabbling, and actually make $20,000 or $25,000 or $40,000? For heaven's sakes, you've got companies like Target and Amazon and Walmart, just to name a few, Best Buy, that are paying $15 to $20 an hour.

No pressure, no toxicity. I'm not saying you go to work for those places. I'm saying what if you dabbled and you did speed up paying off the house, but it wasn't a long-term commitment, it wasn't anything other than I'm just helping out, pay off the debt a little bit faster, but I still have time to think and dream. Isn't that possible, Jess? Yeah, it is possible. Then consider that.

Okay, thank you. You bet, but you need to leave. Okay, the only massage is you're doing it for the hubs. And that may be debatable, George. I like that plan, though. That's not a bad idea. I like it for him. I'm trying to help him out a little bit.

But if your wife is a masseuse and been over 20 years, is that the last thing she wants to do? If you're a chef professionally, you don't get home and go, I'd love to cook a big meal right now. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm getting at. I don't want to assume anything. But it's a great question. Oh, man. So that's what I'm getting at. I don't want to assume anything. Yeah, you know. But it's a great question. Oh, man. And that's what I love

about the Baby Steps. It prepares you for something like this where you go, we can do this. We have the margin. Not even think twice about it. Yeah.

Baby Step 6, going to pay the house off whether she works or not. It's going to happen soon. Really great stuff. Jess, thank you so much for the call. Yeah, you need to get healthy.

Get free of that toxicity and then move forward. All right, George, you're not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. This is the Ramsey Show. Yeah, you need to get healthy. Get free of that toxicity and then move forward. Alright, George, you're not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. This is the Ramsey Show. Don't you go anywhere. Welcome back, America. You've joined the conversation here on the Ramsey Show. We're talking about your money. We're talking about your work. We're talking about your relationships.

They're all intertwined, and we want to help you win in all of those areas. I'm Ken Colemanman joined by my colleague george camel we're here with you this hour 888-825-5225 is the phone number to jump in 888-825-5225 if you were with us on our last segment jess called in and she was you know wrestling with this idea that they're on baby step six, only $274,000 left to pay off the house, and then moving to baby step seven. She's been in a toxic massage therapist kind of environment for 20 years. Husband's about ready to get a promotion, which would then equal what she's making now. And she called and said, I want to quit.

My husband's supporting me quitting. I'm burned out, essentially. Ken, George, can I, you know, can I get permission? And she didn't need our permission. And she really addressed the fact that she felt selfish for wanting to just not work. George, thoughts on that? So, Ken, I've been on the internet, as millennials tend to be. Now, wait a second. You imply that us Xers or anybody older, like we don't know what the internets are.

Ken, I go deeper, man. I'm on TikTok. I'm on Reddit. I'm in places you don't want to be. Well, this is true. You understand? Let's be very clear. And I stumbled upon this subreddit, which is like a category on Reddit.

Yeah, you just blew my mind. Called Anti-Work. And I immediately thought of you, Ken. Anti-work? Yes. What does that refer to? It's all the rage right now. Here's a Forbes headline.

The anti-work movement is a sign something's rotten in the workplace. And here's what it is. It's got over a million people that are subscribed to this subreddit. Oh, my gosh. And here's what they want. The group describes itself as being for those who want to end work or who are curious about ending work, who want more information on anti-work ideas and help with work-related struggles. And Gen Z is especially hot on this idea.

Sure they are. They want to get the most out of a work-free life. They want more information on this. They want personal help in their own jobs, work-related struggles. So it's a lot of the stuff that you address, but there's a large section of these these people who just go i don't think we should have to work at all as a society because you're already in this rabbit hole i'm not processing this real time yeah how do they address or what are they asking uh as it relates to well we got to have a place to live let's just take the four walls from ramsey solutions world you know we got to eat. We've got to have a place to live.

We've got to have those utilities and, oh, there's that transportation and, well, all that other stuff. How do they go about getting that stuff? As with many half-baked ideas on the internet, I don't think they've thought this one all the way through. They just have the problem. They don't necessarily have the solution. And the problem is there's corruption and there's all these strikes out there.

That's true. There's a lot of corruption in the workplace. How about awful leaders that allow toxic cultures? Exactly. And gossip and devaluing people. And low wages. There's all these things that they're against. All right.

So let me just tell you what I think about the work-free concept. It depends on how you look at work to be able to understand how vital work is. If you only see work as a J-O-B that has a certain amount of hours and duties attached to it that then supplies me money to be able to get all these other things, this is how this kind of nonsense develops. Because they go, ugh, my parents griped about their work my whole life, the environment, the experience they come from. They see all the corporate greed, and who knows what all is influencing this. But what happens is if your mindset of work is,

well, why should I have to do something I don't enjoy for somebody who's a jerk, who treats me like I'm a piece of crap, all to be able to eat and sleep in a nice, comfortable bed and watch Netflix? This is injustice! You just summed up the entire subreddit, I'm pretty sure. There it is. But let's stay here. We started the same premise.

Right, but that's where they're coming at this. As opposed to, wait a second, what if my work was focused on something that I was really, really good at, thus there's going to be efficiency or proficiency and excellence, and it was something that I really enjoyed doing. You think of anybody, have you ever seen an artist or a musician or anybody that's ever enjoyed anything they do? And you're doing something that you really love and it produces a result that you also can go,

I care about this. Oh, and I'm making plenty of this thing called money that allows me to again have all those other things. And I see that at the end thing called money that allows me to, again, have all those other things. And I see that at the end of all of that work, whatever it is, is an actual contribution that makes the world a little bit better. If you see work that way, then you don't subscribe to these kind of rabbit holes. That's exactly right. So that's my definition of work is the secondary. If you're new to me and what I do at Ramsey Solutions, that's the whole deal.

We were created to contribute. You either agree with that or disagree. I mean, there is no middle ground, George. Yeah. You either think I'm nuts, which is fine. Join the club. Or you go, that makes sense, Ken. But if we see work as this other nonsense that it's like, oh, well, let's just remove the whole money thing.

Let's just make everything free. If your premise is work is evil, then we've got the wrong premise. But let me just say something that might be a little bit shocking and jarring for some people. Let's assume that there was no need for work as it relates to job and a paycheck. Let's just assume universal, everybody gets everything. How long does it take for a human to wake up on that day and realize, I've got no meaning in my life. I've got food.

I've got air conditioning, heat. I've got 700 thread count sheets. I've got all the cable, all the internets, all the things, all of the pleasure. But I don't have any meaning because I haven't done anything. You know, one of the most grotesque tortures that we've ever seen in the history of the world was not physical beatings and things of that nature. All those are horrible.

But one of the most torturous techniques that dictators and evil people have done is meaningless work i've read accounts of prisoners who their job was to wake up one day and move a pile of heavy rocks from one side of the prison camp to the other victor frankl in search of meaning he survived this. Torturous work because it was meaningless to move one pile of rocks from one side of the camp to the other. There's zero value in that. And that was the torture. And thus the great Viktor Frankl, the power of writing things down and envisioning and dreaming, what would he do? In search of meaning.

I mean, go look it up. Do your homework on it. I think you need to start a new subreddit called pro work i am pro work i am pro well ken this i mean if you wanted more of this obviously you all can listen to the ken coleman show where ken is talking about these ideas every day but man i wish i could give every single one of those subscribers a copy of your book paycheck to purpose from paycheck to purpose where you show them that it's way more than just a paycheck yeah i. That you can have meaning. Yeah.

What I'd like them to do is go to work and then pay for it. Boom. There we go. Instead of me giving it to them. It's 20 bucks. I mean. Come on. Come on.

I mean, mama needs a new pair of shoes, George. There you go. So this is a nonsensical idea. And here's the deal. What we do have to understand as this tribe of people that you work so hard. See, we're talking to people who work hard. People who are willing to work hard to get out of debt, to fulfill a dream.

And, you know, that caller, Jess, she had a couple of ideas. We didn't have time to get into her ideas. But if she quits that massage therapy job, she gets healthy. Because she and her husband walk the baby steps out, they're financially free. When she's at home getting healthy and recuperating, what is is her head and heart they're healthy now and they get in alignment and she's going to begin to dream what could i do yeah to make the world or my zip code a better place see you separate politics religion geography it doesn't matter you you

move all of that out and and you bring humans together. The one thing, if there's any one thing that we share, is that we want to, or the two things, we want to be loved, and then we want to make a difference. Absolutely. And here's another article that says it this way. The anti-work message Gen Z spreads on social teaches us that we do not have to subject ourselves

to overworked schedules and insufficient pay just to survive. Well, that's true. They got that part right. They're halfway right. You don't have to work for a crappy leader in a crappy company. I'll give you that. There's another way. There's hope.

Oh, my God. That's why we show up every day. Yeah. I mean, listen, we're going to talk about this. I think James Childs gave us a green light Friday. I think we're together here on the Ramsey Show. We're back. We're talking about unbelievable job titles and what people make.

There's more opportunity than you could possibly imagine. So you don't have to work at a crappy company for a crappy leader. We'll help you. We're not anti-work. We are pro-meaning. How's that? Ooh, George. That's good.

Tweet that. George. Tweet that. George with the mic drop. No one's going to tweet that. No, not at all. It wasn't that good, but I wanted you to feel good. Thank you.

All right, don't move. Quick break, and we come right back. This is The Ramsey Show continues. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me in studio as my co-host, and we are here to help you out. 888-825-5225. 888-825-5225.

Blinds.com. 100% satisfaction guarantee means even if you mismeasure, 825-5225. Blinds.com. 100%. Satisfaction guarantee means even if you mismeasure, and I have and would, or pick the wrong color, they'll remake your blinds for free. You get free samples, free shipping, and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more. Use the promo code Ramsey to get the best deal. Today's question comes from Catherine in Florida.

She asks, I've been working in the mortgage field since 2007. I burned out in 2017 and went to work for a non-profit housing counseling agency. We were able to adjust the budget and stay on our path to become debt-free. In 2020, I returned to the mortgage industry. I'm more successful now than I ever thought possible and I'm on pace to make over $85,000 this year. I love my customers, and I feel like this is my passion, but the corporate culture has me yearning to return to the non-profit sector, even if I would only make $38,000 a year with minimal growth potential. We owe $267,000 on our home, and I have $40,000 in student loan debt. We're 40 years old with four kids. My husband makes $40,000 a year.

We don't have enough in retirement savings, and that scares me too. What advice would you give about my career path? All right, I love this question. And, Catherine, I think what I see here is your heart. And if you're not careful, your heart's going to try to talk your head out of being smart. And usually I see it's the other way around, George, where people's heads will try to talk their heart out of doing something. And so here's what I mean. You're not burned out anymore.

You're healthy. You're back in the mortgage industry. And you know this is your passion. But you're talking about the corporate culture. And the corporate culture is very different, I certainly understand that, than what you experienced when you were in the nonprofit world.

But the reality is, you have some big-time financial responsibilities and obligations, and you've got some more work to do. So I want you to stay where you are, and you're going to deal with the corporate culture. You're going to change your mindset to, you know what, I love the other environment better. I can get there eventually.

You're only 40 years of age. So I think you do two things. First, I told you to stay where you are, keep making good money, keep moving up, keep walking out the baby steps. But how can you volunteer? Keep making good money. Keep moving up. Keep walking out the baby steps. But how can you volunteer? How can you spend a little bit of time, let you determine what that looks like each month, in that nonprofit world, giving of yourself,

investing in that environment, and getting a little bit of a taste of that and keep that heart full while you're doing the corporate mortgage gig. That's what I want you to do. And then with the eye and the mindset that in the future when we're totally debt-free, when I can take an income hit because I've planned for it and my life now being debt-free is adjusted to the point that this is gravy anyway, then we could go full-time into that non-profit world. So I think it's perspective and i think it's patience yeah and i'll give you some math to support that right now according to what you told us you guys make 125 combined and you have 40 000 in student loan debt so like ken said i'm

sticking this out and i'm paying off this 40 000 and under a year with that income as fast as possible and then when you make the switch, when that happens, you would go down to about 78 if that's a path you want to pursue. But at that point, you're at baby step six and you're working on paying off the house, so I would continue to have that as a goal. And like Ken was mentioning, maybe there's some mix and maybe you could find another environment that isn't nonprofit

where you do feel like it's fulfilling. Because what you're telling me here is it's corporate culture. This is the issue here is the corporate culture. Who knows what that means? It could mean a thousand things. But you're telling me there's not a mortgage company that has a good culture? I mean, our friend's down here at Churchill Mortgage. Oh, sure.

Great place to work. Yeah, I think what we're hearing in that is that the nonprofit experience she's had before, the nonprofit housing is the way I think she addressed it. And that is, yes, nonprofit housing counseling agency. She is delineating between, well, if I'm the mortgage insurer here, I'm helping people who can afford it, hopefully, get a house. They're part of the kind of natural American dream. When I was over here, we were helping people who never dreamed of a home

and what it did for them was such an unbelievable life change. And so there's just much more heart engagement there. Still both great. And so that's what's going on there. It is some corporate culture, but it's more the impact and the stories

really are affecting their heart more over here. And that's why I'm saying do something over there. You can still help and volunteer. Maybe even get a part-time job over there. Who cares? But you've got to stay the course, as you said. There's a theme in today's show. Debt holds you back from opportunity.

And the faster you can get out of debt, the faster you can get through these baby steps, the more opportunity you have. Can I edit that, Frank? Please. Debt delays our dreams. Ooh, that's good. That's a Ken Coleman quote right there. That is one people will tweet.

You think so? Yeah, that's way more tweetable. All right. Okay, very nice. We'll see. Who's even on Twitter even more? Who knows? It's like a tree falling in the middle of the woods.

That's true. Yeah, there you go. Just bots these days. All right, let's go to Andrew in Lexington, Kentucky. Andrew, how can we help? Hey, thanks for taking my call. You bet. My wife, Kristen, and I have been working the baby steps.

We've been on baby step two since the beginning of 2020. We've paid off, worked together and paid off a little over $70,000 so far. Good job. Have about $60,000 remaining. So my wife is a teacher. She works in the school system and she wants to get out of the school system.

We had a little baby in July. Congratulations. So she wants to be home with him. Thank you. Thank you. So she wants to be out of that job and also be home with him, which I totally support. Without her income, I kind of project that July, by the time she's done with her job, we'll have $42,000 left on the debt. My question is, we have about, I think we could probably get $100,000 out of our home,

our current home. We could sell our home, pay off all my student loan debt, have a $20,000 emergency fund, and then have about a $35,000 head start towards baby step 3B. And then our plan would be to rent for a year and save up to purchase another home. And I guess I'm just wondering if that plan gives us a lot of freedom, kind of like you've been talking about. Yeah. George, what do you think?

I mean, I love this plan. A lot of people just aren't willing to sell. And as long as you guys are willing to be patient and rent-free here, which all indicators point to yes here, then I love this plan. I do too. Yeah. Now, if you're going to go turn around and try to buy something tomorrow, you're going to find yourself in a tizzy in this market.

But let me ask you this. What's your household income? About $126,000. $126,000. And you guys paid off $70,000 in two years making $126,000, correct? Yes. Yeah. And you got $60,000 left. Right. So if you stayed the course, it would be less than two years to go. Yeah. But you want her to be able to stay home when she has the baby? Right, right. Got it. He's six months old now. At the end of the school year, she'd love to stay home with him. Okay. And I totally support that. And she's still working right now? She is currently, yes. Okay. Would there be harm in her staying maybe a year longer in the workforce before staying home?

It's kind of been a bad situation just between she has a tough job. She's working special education with students with moderate to severe disabilities. It really takes a toll on you. And her heart is just to be home with him, which I want her to be able to do. Well, George, the way I look at this, Andrew, I'm seeing one year difference. So there's a lot of moving around, pain in the butt, you know, extra expenses to sell a house, pack it all up, move to an apartment, right? And it saves you a year, you know, versus you doing what you can while she's at home, maybe you pick up a second job.

I like where you're going, George. There's a couple options here. But he's willing to make the sacrifices, and to that I say touche. Let's do this thing. I would do it. Andrew, if you want to know what I'd do with your scenario, I'd do it because the baby's six months old. The baby doesn't know.

You could be in an apartment for a year if you needed to extend it a year and a half or two years. You get a two-bedroom apartment. It's no big deal, and you guys can keep saving up. I like the move. You're leapfrogging the baby steps and a half or two years. You get a two-bedroom apartment. It's no big deal. And you guys can keep saving up. I like the move. You're leapfrogging the baby steps and doing it the right way. I like the fast-forward button.

Most people are just not willing to do it, Andrew. So I applaud you for being willing to do whatever it takes to put your family in a great position. I say do it, Andrew. You guys are young. Baby's not going to know anything. He doesn't care. Right? It's fantastic.

The baby doesn't care. That's the key here. He doesn't care. Right? It's fantastic. The baby doesn't care. That's the key here. He doesn't. He'll go wherever. He's a baby. Yeah, put him in the car seat. He doesn't know. He doesn't know how big the room is or if it's an apartment or a house. All right, great stuff.

Hey, thank you, George. I want to say thank you to our team in the control booth for making the show happen. I want to thank you, America. This is your show. It is The Ramsey Show. Hey, it's Kelly, associate producer and phone screener for The Ramsey Show. If you would like to do your debt-free scream live on the show, make sure you visit theramseyshow.com and register. We would love for you to come to Nashville and tell Dave your story.