The Ramsey Show - App - Discussing Non-Negotiables in Relationships (Hour 1)

Episode Date: January 5, 2024

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🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth,

do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I am your host, Jade Warshaw. I am joined by fellow co-host, author, host of The Rachel Cruze Show, my host host or co-host today, Rachel Cruze. Rachel, it's been a little minute since we've been on here together. I know. Since before 2023.

That's right. It was last year. That's crazy. But give us a call. The number is 888-825-5225. We'd be honored to take your call in this new year. So let's go straight to the phone lines where we've got Donovan in Atlanta, Georgia. What's going on, Donovan? Hey, so I have probably $50,000 in student

debt and another six or seven in consumer debt split between a credit card and like a small car payment that we needed. And I'm looking to go to grad school for clinical mental health counseling. But obviously, I don't want to go further into student debt to do that. So how would you recommend I do that while also doing the baby steps and trying to get out of debt? Well, I do think that the first thought here is, is going to grad school going to have the return on investment that you're looking for? Because it doesn't always. So that'd be the first thing that I'm thinking about. And then two, yeah, you don't want to continue to go into debt. You already have $50,000 in student loan debt. So if you decide that it does return on investment,

what would it look like for you to pay your way and what does it actually cost? Okay. Yeah. So yeah. Donovan, how old are you? I'm 24 and I have a child and a wife. Okay. Wonderful. And what are you doing now for work? I work at a local college and like it gives me free rent. But are you able to do the grad school program there and get a discount? I am, but it's not accredited. So it would be it would be very low ROI. OK, getting to a different one.

I hear you. What is the change in like salary wise and like option wise? How does that change for you getting your graduate degree? I think it would double my potential earning, but also I would pay the grad program would probably be equal to the amount that I would get a raise for, which is what it would be about 30,000 of a raise if I got my degree and I would make 30,000 more dollars. And how long is the program? Like how long would it take you to go through that? About two and a half years.

Okay. And how much are you making now, Donovan? $30,000, but I don't pay any rent. Okay. And your wife, does she make anything? Is she working? $26,000. Okay, so $30,000 and $60,000.

Okay. So yeah, y'all are about 56,000. Okay. Donovan, here's my advice. I feel like sometimes the advice, I just know you're not going to like it. I feel like that's going to be it. Honestly, if I was in your situation

and I had a wife, I had a kid, I had a dream out there, for you it is to go to grad school. For some people it's to start their own business. You can fill in the blank on what that is. To me, you have to take care of the necessary things financially and start on, we always say, the firm financial foundation where financially you are not in a shaky place. But when you have debt, Donovan, you're in a shaky place. You owe someone something. If something were to happen, you have to pay this debt back. But when you don't owe anyone anything, there is

a level of freedom there. There's less stress. There's options. You don't feel this debt back. But when you don't owe anyone anything, there is a level of freedom there. There's a less stress. There's options. You don't feel this urgency that, oh my gosh, I have to do this, this, and this. And that starts to limit your options just mentally. So if I were you, I would work really hard. I would be working nights. I would work some weekends.

I'd have your wife pick up an extra. I mean, I would do whatever you could to get rid of this $56,000, which is going to take a lot, but you don't have rent. There's some expenses you don't have, but it may take a year or two to do that. And then I would save up some money on the side to be saving for, to be able to cash flow grad school. Because what's going to happen, Donovan'm telling you you're just 26 okay and i or 24 and i know it feels like i know what i want to do i need to keep pressing forward in this but when you just have some patience and you and you wait even if it's even if it's three years okay and i know that's not that is not fun but you get to be 27 year old donovan and you're either saying get me this degree.

I know this is exactly what I want to do. I have the money for it. I'm not putting myself in a bad place financially to do it. We're doing it wise, in a wise way. And I start this path, and I make 30 grand more. It all happens, and it's great. Or 27-year-old Donovan wakes up, and he's like, golly, things are shifting. We have another baby on the way.

We actually want to move back home. Like, you know what I mean? Like things start happening in life that may cause you to make different decisions. And so if I were you, I think that I think the safest, wisest route is to slow down, get this debt paid off and then save up and go through grad school. Listen, I'm right. I'm right there with you. I don't think that you're going to effectively because he said he was trying to do the baby steps. And I don't think you can effectively do both because we're talking about a lot of money, $30,000, $15,000 a year. That's what you would have been putting towards the baby steps.

And do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. And something tells me, you know, you say, hey, I have the ability to double my income. It's $30,000. You and your wife together can make fifty that's a thousand extra dollars a month between the two of you if you make an extra thousand and she makes an extra thousand that's twelve thousand a month between the two of you put that i mean you're almost there does that make sense like

you can literally do that with any of these side hustles which is not going to be forever donovan and again and that advice would be if somebody called and which is not going to be forever donovan and again and that advice would be if somebody called and they wanted to go and be a photographer full-time and travel the world i would say i would clean this up first get some money to be able to cash flow that dream like it's it's one of those things that just has to be in the right order and what happens on a minute when it's not in the right order we get the call at 27 year old donovan and there's a you know something happens and and your wife has to stay home you don't have the money you're in the middle of grad school you want to be able to

finish but you can't you have all this other consumer debt like it starts to just really really intensify and if you can just slow down and have some options i just think that that's the wisest way that's a really good point and sorry donovan we're we're like overloading you but the other i mean you're good i love it theovan we're we're like overloading you but the other i mean you're good i love it the more we talk about it the more things just keep raising themselves in my mind as like a possible thought and there's another part to this where when you've got a lot of you know you're juggling a lot of things you got a lot of balls in the air you do feel the stress to to complete it because it's a lot right if you if you try going to school

and you're doing this debt thing at some point you're going to hit a fatigue whether it's a mental fatigue or financial fatigue and then the option of debt feels even more enticing because it's like this is a quick fix if we can hey we're just going to take out 10,000 in student loans and then we'll be able to pay like that starts whispering to you and I really don't want that. And Donovan, if you have, oh sorry Jade. No, that's okay. I was done. And if you have, you know, a credible job at a college now, I would look at the option and would be totally okay if you guys found another college you could work for that has a grad program that is credible and you could go that way and get a discount and maybe speed this up more. So maybe it's even a change of job because you're in a great, you know, line of line of work to be able to get some kind of perk when

it comes to higher education. So I would even do that. See if the if the school will pay for it. If you and your wife move in, Dr. John Deloney, they did that. They lived in the dorms. Yes. And he went through school and all. I mean, that's what they did. And so I would look at some other options that could fast forward this plan, too, for you, Donovan. But slow and steady, it's always the way to go. I know that's right. And take advantage of the fact that he's not paying rent. Like, that's great. That's the biggest line item on everybody's budget.

So to be able to take that money and quickly, you know, put it towards a debt snowball. Come on, somebody. Love it. Donovan, you're making the right move this is the ramsey show this is the ramsey show my hope my name today is jade warshaw joined by rachel cruz the phone lines are open so give us a call the number is triple eight eight two five five two two five the name changed sometimes change man, it must be because my mind is not it right in this moment. We're here.

It's Friday. We've been on Christmas break, man. I know. It's been a hard one to gear back up towards. And let's be honest, we had a tax meeting before this. We did. Tax meeting. So my mind is like waking up.

All right. Let's go to the phone lines, Rachel, because I need a call right now. Let's go to Caitlin. She's in New York, New York. What's going on in your world, Caitlin? Hi. Great to be talking to you. I have an interesting question.

I'm looking for guidance in how to approach moving to the next step with someone I'm in a relationship with. And they're maybe not on the same page with me financially. We're very happy, but I'm sensing that there's a lot of guilt and embarrassment around their finances. What he has divulged is not the best news. And so, you know, I'm personally not where I would like to be financially, but I'm very actively working towards my goals. My question is, you know, what advice do you have in approaching him in the right way, but also like still getting the information that I need to know, which is like, can he change his habits? Does he actually want to? I love this conversation. So what is the

information? Like, has he told you his numbers? As far as like, what he earns his debt? Like, has he been open to that extent? Yes, not, not very, you know, enthusiastically, I guess I could say. Um, again, like I think there's a lot of, um, maybe, you know, embarrassment or just sort of, um, not, not super enthusiastic to share what, what he has so far, but yes. And I think that's normal by the way. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, that, it was interesting. I was the one to first come forward and say like, Hey, I, you know, we've been together for so long. I'd like to move to the next step. But like, I'm almost three years.

Oh. So, yeah. And, you know, I would love to move to the next step and move in with him or, you know, move our lives forward in that way. And I have personally, you know, a lot of debt and student loans. And so I wanted to be upfront with him with like what my situation is and what I'm working towards. But I didn't get the same amount of information from him. So I figured it maybe wasn't good. And after some, you know, follow up conversations, that is that is correct.

So what he has shared is like his income. OK. He has he's taken out a loan on his 401k. That was one thing that was like a bit concerning to me. And then, you know, in terms of saving. How recently did he take out that loan? I believe a few years ago, within the last five years okay so what I'm getting at what I'm getting at is I think you do have to be delicate with this conversation because I mean you've got your own financial mess over here that you admit like listen I've got debt I've got a mess to clean up and so he does too so when you bring up that conversation it's almost like you've got to be it is surrounded by like fear and shame

and guilt and all of those things so it's almost like you being very forthcoming with what you've got to be, it is surrounded by like fear and shame and guilt and all of those things. So it's almost like you being very forthcoming with what you've done and I did this and here's what my plan is going forward. And I'd probably start asking questions around his philosophy with money and with debt. And you can kind of open that with like, listen, I don't have to tell you, I have this debt and I've just kind of, I think I done with debt like I don't think I'm going to borrow money anymore I've started listening to I don't you know I don't know how much you guys share as far as what you're into and podcasts and things like that but I think it'd be hard to be dating someone that you've been with for three years and they don't kind of have a bead on what your you know what

your interests are whether it be hobbies or finance or whatever. So it seems like it could be pretty organic to bring up the conversation of, hey, you know that podcast I've been listening to? I'm really starting to get into it and maybe asking him more generalized money philosophy questions first, as opposed to what do you plan on doing with this 401k loan kind of thing? Does that make sense yeah and caitlin i would always and i always want to know someone's um motivation behind why they did what they did because for some people and we find this all the time doing what we do you know there's just there is a lot of just ignorance people don't know and so it's like oh this is an option to take out a

loan i mean i guess like they've never even heard of another way how to live. And so there is something to be said about once they have some information, kind of what Jade's saying, then be able to say, OK, so what does this look like now? Because the truth is, I'm like, I mean, Caitlin, I would still be in a relationship with somebody if they had student loan debt. But the key is that they want out and they don't want debt to be part of their life it's a value system thing do you know what i'm saying so like to me it's you know winston like when we when we were dating he like had a credit card and his philosophy was like oh i'm gonna use all the rents and all the utilities on the credit card and then and i'm like well i i can't like i literally can I literally can't. I can't do that.

It's not allowed. And to him, he was like, okay, so my philosophy shifts to we just pay cash and we don't have a credit score and we don't need a credit score. And okay, like it all just kind of made sense. Does that make sense? And I know we were young and you're probably way more set in your ways, Caitlin, and so is your boyfriend. But the point is, it is a value system conversation at that point.

What do we value? And out of your value system is where money becomes a tool. Because money is just a tool. It's just a tool to live your life. And you want to be able to live your life in a pretty similar way. Or you're going to continue to. Or you will butt heads if you guys continue a relationship and open up the store. So for me, that would be my number one.

And I think the empathy route like what jade is saying is so true because you're not perfect caitlin i'm not perfect jade's not perfect none of us are but i think the key is like hey you know and maybe he is probably feeling a lot of guilt and shame and the truth is caitlin he's probably not happy with where he is financially right so then it's like okay so we have to do something different and do you want to do this together not combining money but hey should we start this journey? We each have our own debt snowball. What does this look like to become free?

And talk about your why, Caitlin. Why do you want to be debt free? Is debt, are you losing sleep at night? Is it stressful? Do you have to stay in a job you hate because of it? It's those kind of conversations to have. It's not just like what Jade said, the 401k loan. There's so much under that too. To be clearlin um and rachel i think you would agree with this

these are this is a series of conversations over time um maybe some relationships you can have that one conversation it's like all right we we it's settled but i mean i can tell you with sam and i these conversations were months and like depending on the level of guilt that's there or shame these are conversations that you're just looking for um a little bit of forward movement with each with each conversation like hey he seemed a little bit more open this time or hey he seemed like he divulged a little bit more this time when i brought it up he didn't go you know like you're looking for that little um those little steps forward that you're like okay their mind is open and I can see that he's trying his best but if you're seeing um no forward movement if it truly doesn't look like like look he's not interested I bring this up and every time

it's like you know okay you know but does that make sense it may not be something that you get done in two date night dinners you know what I'm saying for sure and definitely I haven't been met with like a resistance to talk about it and it's progressing so that's like really great to hear that it is something that has to take time I just wanted to like hear your perspective because I'm only still understanding how much of like the psychology of my behaviors has led me to this and exactly what you just said of like, it's a value conversation where I just want to make sure I ask the right questions and we have the right conversations to like, make sure we're on the same page. Like we do look at money the

same way. And you know, if we were to move forward with making financial decisions together, like, do we have the right tools to kind of explore like what our thoughts are together? Yes. Yeah. And Caitlin just, and know this too, because I'm such the spender in our marriage. My husband's the saver. Winston has like four spreadsheets in Excel and every dollar he has all this stuff and I don't even though I do this for a living he is way more of that nerd so also hear me say he there there may be a sense of him that is just naturally a free spirit and that is who he is too like I don't want everyone to think that everyone has to be obsessed with

money and can't wait to talk about 401ks all the time and it's so exciting about the new tax code like like that that may not be exciting to everyone and that's okay too. So I think it's, it's the bigger value system that together in a relationship, we are moving in the same direction with our lives. And you could plug in, you know, family, you could plug in spirituality, you can plug in all this stuff. And it's just a healthy, balanced relationship and money is a piece of that. I love that. It is important though, to know when you hit your non-negotiable mark. Let me just throw that out there. This is The Ramsey Show. All right, everybody, you're listening to The Ramsey Show. I'm your co-host, Jade Warshaw, joined by Rachel Cruz. And during the break, we were talking about non-negotiables. And so many of us

face this, whether you are dating someone and, you know, you have to bring up those conversations, Rachel, about money, about, you know, religious views, possibly political views. Like there's all these tough conversations to have. And when do you know when you're dating somebody, when you get to that point, that's like, okay, this is, I've hit my point, right? Like we talked to somebody who was in a relationship for three years and it's like, okay, maybe now's the time to start looking at this, talking about this. But it's hard to know, especially if you might see a little bit of progress and you're like, yes, this is progress.

Maybe we're going on the right direction. But what would you say, is let's let's let's call out some red flags of if you see this this might be pump the brakes money wise money I was like I don't know if I'm not a marriage therapist I don't know no I'm talking about finances yes um I would say I always pump the brakes with people that feel like they have all the answers. Like when it's this idea that like, I don't have any more learning to do. Oh, like I'm kind of just stuck in my, this is it. I'm good.

And you're like, you don't want to grow or stretch or like hear something different. Like to me in life right now, that feels so prideful. So with money and we get this call a lot with people that as we're talking about non-negotiables so i guess there's a little bit on the other side of this but this idea that you know we we talk and they're like well you know he just tells me like he didn't want to talk about it he's not gonna talk about it or she doesn't she won't even she won't even enter the discussion i'm like that's exhausting like that's exhausting so you can have your non-negotiables but be but be humble about it it's the spirit that you bring to it um well let me be devil's advocate

because there's somebody listening in their car and they're like listen i'm the one who my spouse keeps talking to me about ramsey this ramsey that and whenever i try to tell her my views on why i want to keep my mortgage payment and invest it instead, she's so closed minded. Like she doesn't want to hear. She feels like she's found this plan and that's it. Like there's no like let's talk about it from that point of view. So if I'm her, I would be like, OK, so talk me through that.

Let's run some numbers. Let's look. Let's have a conversation. Right. Not just you telling him, well, this is what it is. It's what you should be doing. Preachy mentality. Yeah. Being willing to listen. look let's have a conversation right not just you telling him well this is what it is this is what you should be doing preachy mentality um yeah being willing to listen very much so and ask questions and ask questions be curious like that whole spirit as a person i think is really

important but when you're so closed off and you don't even want a conversation that to me is the big that's exhausting like you know that would be a red flag for me i think they won't even they won't even talk about it they avoid it you know all the stuff and you're just like oh man yeah i think that's a red flag i think if you're talking about the future like say you're dating and you're talking about okay like when we get married you know what are your views on combining money that like maybe they maybe they've been very open about their money up until this point and you're like like, yes, everything's going good. But then when you start thinking about, OK, when we get married, how is this going to work?

Because my thoughts are that we would combine our money and kind of have our goals together. And if they're saying, oh, really? Because I've worked really hard for my savings. And that for me would be tough, would be tough. And a non-negotiable. I think it's a non-negotiable, but there's part, I'm not gonna lie, there's part of me that wonders

if there could be a journey there over time. Yep, yep. So these are tough conversations, but I would urge people to start having them early. If there's one thing that I can say that I kind of feel like I learned in my marriage is we didn't talk about that dating. Like, yes, our dating time was very fun and not a lot of like we I mean, we talked about

heavy stuff, but somehow the financial stuff just wasn't really in there. And then after the fact, it was like, oh, wait a minute. Luckily, there were certain things that we just naturally aligned on. Thank goodness. Yeah. But yeah, have those conversations. Yeah. And I would say debt would

be one of those i mean it would be really tough to marry somebody and they're like hey i want to go you know five hundred thousand dollars in debt to do real estate and i'll be like oh no i can't do that i can't do that yes it's like that would stress that would be because then you live as the spouse in the stressful state 24 7 you know yeah an investment i'm saying not just primarily but it's like I because I see these people on Instagram TikTok and they're all about real estate leverage to their eyeballs yes and I just watched that I'm like oh my gosh that would be so hard that would be a tough that would be a tough marriage for me that is because on the one

hand and I mean even if it's not real estate even if it's just one person like I have this business goal or this aspiration I want to open a restaurant, whatever it is. But their viewpoint is I go into debt to do this. And if you're the spouse who says, hey, I don't feel comfortable with debt. I don't like debt. And they view that as you're not supporting my dream or you're not, you know what I'm saying? Like, you don't believe in me. You don't believe this is going to work and we'll be able to pay it off. That right there. That's a very tough conversation to have. Yes. No, don't believe this is going to work and we'll be able to pay it off. That right there. Yeah, that's a very tough conversation. Yes. Yeah.

Don't get me wrong. I still stand my ground because I feel like I'm not like, can we do it over time? Is there a way to not leverage debt? Yes. Yes. Oh, goodness. All good. It's hard.

It's hard. And good stuff. All right. Let's go to the phone lines where we've got Anna in Houston, Texas. What's going on, Anna? Anna. Hello. How are you guys doing? Doing good. How are you? Sorry, I said your, Texas. What's going on, Anna? Anna? Hello. How are you guys doing? Doing good. How are you? Sorry I said your name wrong. It's Anna, right? You're okay.

It is Anna. So I have a question and I'm hoping that y'all can kind of help me out because I've been thinking about it for a little while. I am expecting to get a raise here soon within the next maybe two months at work. And it's about, I'm hoping like $20,000 extra a year. I'm not certain, though, if I should save that amount every year or use it to pay off my student loan debt. That's awesome. Yeah, I have about $65,000 of student loan debt that I just accrued here recently going back to school to get my master's. And it's just me and my kids.

I don't get child support. How many kids? And I have three. Okay. One, my son is 19 though now. And so he wants to go to school. That's a whole nother situation and needing a little bit of money for that. Yeah.

But I guess my question is just, should I save that extra 20 a year for me and my kids just like for security type stuff or should I just use it all to pay off this student loan debt because I don't want it to go from 65 to 200,000 dollars. Of course and that's a great way of thinking. Number one congratulations on the raise that's excellent. So if you're kind of new to the Ramsey show, we teach everything kind of through a series of baby steps, right? There's these seven baby steps that you can take that build on each other to ultimately get you to this place of financial peace, right? And so the advice that I'm going to give you is based on that. So the first thing that we want to kind of create this secure platform for you is you just

need a thousand dollars saved, right? So if you can just out of that $20,000 raise or out of your bank account or whatever you have of money now, if you can just set a thousand dollars aside and just, okay, I've got that there. And then the second baby step is, yeah, you pay off your debt because when you pay off debt, you're eliminating that risk. You're eliminating that financial uncertainty that's in your life. And that that's usually the point of stress that people feel is, oh, my gosh, I've got to make these payments or these debt collectors are calling me or my payment is due. Right. That's usually the source of stress that people feel when it relates to their money. So in your case, I would say if you've got this extra money, congratulations,

let's put it to whatever baby step you're on so that you can keep going in the right direction to get to that ultimate financial piece. And it sounds like in your case, you would be on baby step two where you are paying off the debt. Ana, how much do you make in your job now? So I make about $4,000 a month. It's about $60,000 a year. Okay. And then with the $20,000 will come, so that'll be about $80,000? Mm-hmm. Okay, great. And I already, I have the emergency fund, and I even have about $30,000 in a CD account that I put up whenever I sold my house last year. So I have that saved. That's great. It's going to make you nervous, but I would put that towards your debt and that will take a huge chunk out of this debt. And you're going to make great money. I mean, you're going to make 80 grand. So you'll have $35,000 left. I mean, you could pay this off in 18, 24 months.

Yeah. And honestly, when that CD matures, I'd probably put that on the debt too and knock it out. $65,000. I would do that. And then once the debt is gone, I'd save back up that money. And I just keep it on a high yield to where it's like very liquid. But yeah, listen, I'm proud of you. I think that you're doing all the right things.

You've got good instincts and good intuitions. Yes, you're doing great. Taking great care of your family. This is The Ramsey Show. You're listening to The Ramsey Show. Give us a call. The number is 888-825-5225. And we would love to hear from you. It's a new year. You probably have goals. You probably have questions. And Rachel, we are here to answer those. We have a live stream coming up, guys. January 11th.

That's a Thursday night, okay? It's at 7 p.m. It's completely free. Yes. All right? It's going to be myself, Rachel Cruz, John Deloney, George Camel, and the GOAT, Dave Ramsey. We're all going to be there. And we're going to be myself, Rachel Cruz, John Deloney, George Camel, and the GOAT, Dave

Ramsey. We're all going to be there. And we're going to be teaching you how to break the money cycle. All right. We're breaking this toxic cycle. It's actually called Break the Cycle Livestream. But it's our biggest one yet, Jade. Yes.

The registration is crazy. Yes. Over 200,000 people have registered. So yeah, come join us. We just had a meeting about it yesterday. Yes, that's right. And it's going to be really great, you guys. We're going to talk a lot about navigating money anxiety, bad money habits that keep

you stuck, some practical tips on what to do to start this new year off. So I hope you join us. Not to mention, if you register, you get entered to win $1,000. And we're doing 10 separate winners. So there's a good chance that you could win $1,000. And that's some nice money. That's just a sign up. You know?

All day. All day. Give me some free money all day. I know, that's right. All right, let's go straight to the phone lines with Joey in Washington, D.C. What's going on, Joey? Hey, how are you all doing? Doing good.

So I'm looking for some advice. So I'm looking to kind of invest and save money as I'm an 18 year old going into trying to pay cash for college, as well as trying to get more, I guess, better paying jobs. And they're just kind of like where I should start and where I should look as far as investing goes. So do you have money, Joey, for college? Yes. So I actually, this is like I'm starting my first semester in college. And so I've paid cash for this semester upcoming as well as having a part-time job. Okay.

Which is kind of what I need to do because I really don't want to go into debt. Yeah. kind of what I need to do to continue because I really don't want to go into debt. And so it's kind of what I need to do to stay out of debt and be able to kind of set myself up. Yeah. Well, it's a great question. Well, in your stage, Joey, I probably would not advise investing right now. If I were you, I would just open up a high yield savings account and I would put as much cash in there as possible and get through college making sure that you can cash flow it because what I don't want to happen is you go and open up you know a Vanguard account put some money in and the market goes down and you need cash for school and it's not there and you're like oh geez you know I lost some of that money and so you want

to be able to when you invest it's a really long-term play. So for something big, a big expense like college, I would want you to go through it completely and just know, hey, I have money. I'm able to cash flow this. And then when you graduate and you get a job, I would build up an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses. And then I would look to invest. And when you're investing, you want to do 15% of your income into retirement. And so that's, you know, for your 401k at work, for the job you'll get when you graduate to your Roth IRA, open that up. So yeah, I would honestly not advise you to invest right now just because college is such a big expense. I want to make sure you get through it debt free.

Okay, so I should not be like even into retirement anything like that i shouldn't be worrying about that till like kind of after i get out of college and i graduate college yeah and what's hard joey is i'm like you you know and we even show a graph here at ramsey that says if you're 18 and you start investing what it can be because compound interest is it's an amazing thing but i don't again want your money stuck in an investment if you really do need it for college so this idea that if you just wait four years it's not going to be the end of the world at all. Like you will be, you will be fine starting to invest in retirement at 22 years old. You will be plenty fine. You will, you will retire a millionaire. Everything will be fine. But I would, again,

make sure that you get through college debt free. But I appreciate the call and just the thought process, Joey, of that because investing is so important for our future, but also not going into debt is as important. So 100%. Awesome. Thank you for the call, Joey. Well, let's keep it going and let's go to Kat in Los Angeles. What's going on, Kat? Hi there. Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you? Doing good. How can we help today? My question is about tithing. My husband and I have been married for 26 years, and we've tithed 10% since day one.

Like, that's never been a problem for us. I think the problem part, if anything, has been, like, the 10% saving. Like, we've never done that. But we own our own business business and we're the only two employees. And for the past few years, we decided we should tie the 10% off of our gross income from our business. And we've definitely done that at the expense of putting money into savings, which I, I so, I love giving, I think it's important. But the last few years after COVID, we lost some clients. We, you know, we're making way less than our usual income. And so basically now we're looking at our budget for 2024 and we really want to live the way that God wants us to live. And I mean, we've always tried, like I said, but, but we're wondering,

like, would it be wrong to tie the 10% in our personal income rather than our business income? Listen, I really, really want to do the wrong thing. I sort of feel like talking about it. We're the same. We're like, hold up, hold up. You feel too much guilt. Breathe, Kat. You're good.

You are good. You're fine. Okay, you're fine. First off, you're giving, which puts you in a very small category. And you're giving 10%, which is good. I mean, obviously, if you're a Christian person listening and you're giving 10% which is good I mean I mean obviously if you're a Christian person listening you're used to that kind of talk it's like okay yeah I give my tithe right you're not a Christian person listening that's what a lot of Christian people practice is they give 10% to their local church and um when you were telling your story I

was like oh that sounds like me and Sam you know we when we first started our business we were the only employees and I will be honest like for us uh at the stage in our life, we wanted to give that extra and we gave 10% of the gross of our business. And I mean, you can't out give God. And so we saw the fruit from that. But as we continued on and things changed, we were like, okay, like we, we now give, uh, 10% of our gross payroll, like what we take of the business, like what we take home, just like anybody else would, right? Like if you work for Walgreens, you get your check and you tithe off of what you receive and the gross amount of what you receive typically. And I don't even want to get like Rachel too funky fresh on the grosser the net.

It's like, just give. I think the point of all of this, and I think the heart behind why God has instructed that, why he encourages giving, is because what it does to us. Like giving, what that does is it opens our hands. It moves us on the spectrum from being selfish, just thinking about ourselves, to selfless, looking up for others and others' needs.

When we give and what we give to is really important because it's transforming a community or a place or an organization. That's the heart behind it. That's the motivation. It's not this tit for tat, gross or net, business or product. That's not why God wants us to give. It's not that legalistic.

It's not that granular. It is the position and the posture of our hearts. And that's what he's looking for because he knows when we give, that selflessness starts to occur and you have a richer life. I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about you have a richer relationship with your spouse because as you're giving, you're becoming selfless and you become more of that in your marriage as a parent as a friend as an employee i mean like it affects you as an entire human being when giving is a part of a habit of your life so agree that's what that's my philosophy of why god

has called us to that um and and it's a beautiful thing and it's something that regardless if you are you know a a person that is spiritual or in the evangelical, you know, Christian space or not giving, regardless of where you land spiritually, we always encourage because that will do that whether you believe in a God or not. Yeah. So for Kat, I really I appreciate your diligence and wanting to do the right thing, like you said. But I think you are doing the right thing. Yeah. I think it's the posture of your heart. So I would not get bent out of shape and i do think kat you will feel

something from the holy spirit that may say tie the ties on your business and be obedient to that but he also may say you're okay and what we teach is tithing on on the income you bring in like what jade is saying so that's where we always advise people give on your income but he may he called you know he might encourage you to do something else yeah we gave you know a hundred dollars to the sonic guy because i just feel like we you feel like yeah so like you can't mess this up pat yeah that's right that's right you can't mess it up if you feel the only way you can mess it up is if you start doing things out of obligation or you feel contention or you feel like god loves a cheerful giver. There's something in it of that joy. So I

don't, yeah, we don't want to rob you of that. I like that conversation. I appreciate you though. I really do. That's a good one. I think a lot of people feel that and you can get very, like you said, granular is a great way. You're like looking, oh my gosh, I was 10 cents short. You know, like what's this going to mean when I get to the pearly gates? Nothing. I mean, come on now. Guys, this has been such a great hour. Thanks for your calls. We'll be here next hour.

Give us a call. This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you.