The Ramsey Show - App - Ditch Debt Quickly so You Can Build Wealth Slowly

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Ken Coleman, number one best-selling author and host of The Ken Coleman Show here at Ramsey, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Right before we turn on the microphones, Ken and I were just discussing a fabulous appearance he just did on Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs has a podcast that's a long-form interview podcast.

Mike and I have been friends a long, long time, and I've done it a couple times. And Ken was just a guest on there, and I think it posted and i've listened i listened to it all the way through um it's an hour and 40 minutes of you two guys having way too much fun but it's very informative a great discussion if you haven't uh checked out mike's podcast we recommend that you do especially this week with ken being on there it was incredible ken great job thank you brenda is in tampa florida to start off this hour. Hi, Brenda. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hello. Thank you for having me.

Sure. What's up? So my husband and I have been listening or found you in December last year, and we started the EveryDollar app. And we have gotten an offer already of like $36,000 000 in debt but we still have way more to go and we have around 255 000 in debt still and we were wondering um like to accelerate it a little bit if we should sell our house it does it is 275 APR on our house, but just to see what your opinion was. Okay. The $250,000 in debt, does that include your mortgage? It does not. Okay. What's it on? Student loans?

It's student loan, solar panel, one car, credit cards, and a pool loan. Yeah, we did very bad mistakes, but we're learning from our bad habits. What do you owe on the car? The car, $35,000. Okay. And what's your household income? We bring home around $9,500 500 a month do you like your house okay we do we have two well it has nice solar panels in a pool we know that

yeah yeah so yeah okay um if i'm in your shoes i'm not selling the house except as a worst case scenario. If you get completely stuck, you have a pretty good income. I would sell my car. And we did sell one of our cars. Yeah, the $35,000 one would go too before I sold my house. Yeah, yeah. That's what, a $1,200 a month car payment? Actually, no, $760. no 760 okay you got a good rate on that too then okay good yeah but either way i'm i i would be rid of that that's 35 000

of the 250 you've already made 36 000 progress and of course every time we get rid of a payment it increases the the speed of your progress because you have more money freed up to attack the rest of the debts, working the debt snowball, right? Yes, yes. It is upside down, like almost 15 grand. How many times did you go out to eat last month? Quite a few. We did sit down a lot less. Yeah.

So that needs to be zero. You don't need to see the inside of a restaurant unless you're working there. And you don't need to be on vacation. You call me about to sell your house because you're desperate about your debt, and yet you're going out to eat every night. That's got to stop, girlfriend. Not every night. You've got to stop.

It's got to stop. Going out to eat is entertainment. It is not nutrition. Okay. You need to get on a beans and rice, scorched earth budget where your family thinks you've joined a cult. You need to go crazy before you talk about selling your house. Because you've got a good situation with this house, and if you walk away from it because you won't curb in your other appetites, that would be a wrong set of choices. Yeah. The advice I would give here is I would get EveryDollar, which is

our amazing budgeting app, and get control of your budget within the parameter that Dave just gave you. And here's the number you got to come to. I wrote down, you said you're bringing home $9,500 per month. I would be looking to get the largest amount of money possible out of that $9,500 per month. I would be looking to get the largest amount of money possible out of that $9,500 that you're putting towards debt per month. And I'm just making this up, but start to think in terms of could we put $3,000 a month towards debt? That's $36,000 a year. That's just out of your current income. It needs to be more. I know, but I'm saying you got to build up to what can I put in and you've got to put the max amount in and it doesn't feel then so large and insurmountable to where she's trying to go let's get the house yeah and get a lump sum and

say no over the next two years or three years we can knock this out but we have to do this per month so Brenda another way of saying it is the only thing on the list of things you gave me that was smart was the house everything else was dumb and so we don't want to lose the one smart thing for the dumb things without having pulled out all the stops to save the house as if your life depended on it yeah and so four thousand dollars a month five thousand dollars a month extra jobs no vacations no eating out no nothing nothing just eat pay the lights keep the water on work all the time and pay your bills and you'll get out of debt so fast it'll blow your mind how fast you can do this but it's going to still take three hard years of doing that

and sell the stupid car and sell everything else that's in sight. Sell so much stuff the kids think they're next. The dog on eBay and the cat on Craigslist. I mean, move some stuff. You kind of got to get in that mindset where nothing matters. And once you've done that for two years, if you run out of steam and you go, I can't do this anymore, this worse than i hate i hate this house now all this stuff i've had to do for it but you know you got pool you got solar panels both of which are going to bring squat when you get ready to resell this

thing you're going to get burned again if you resell it so if i'm you hon i'm gonna roll up my sleeves and go after this with a vengeance. And that's what changes everything. Absolutely. It's that mindset to go, I can actually do this, but I've got to have a plan. And that's why, again, the budget to understand how much money you've been spending. I love that immediately you went right to a very practical, how many times did you eat out last month? It's that idea of getting control of how much money we actually have to throw at this problem. Then it doesn't become insurmountable. Yeah. This is doable. Very. But because the great news is you've got a pretty decent shovel. You got a really big hole, but you got a pretty decent

shovel there. Can you resell solar panels? No. Like reselling a computer. That's what I thought. As soon as you plug it in, it's obsolete. The technology is moving so fast on them. I've always wondered that. Five-year-old solar panels are what is known as dumpster food. Because of the quality of the technology today versus five years ago. Same as an old computer. It's the same thing. And so that's why they're junk.

Solar panels are great if you can get about a five-year break even and if you pay cash for them, but not going into debt for them. Because you've got to make your money back in five years, because at the end of the five years, they're going to be worthless. They're going to be in the way. And, I mean, they'll still continue to produce something, but in terms of the value added to your house, nah, not at all. This is The Ramsey Show.

Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Amanda is in Knoxville. Hi, Amanda. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave and Ken. Thank you for taking my call.

Sure. I need your advice. My husband and I are exhausted. So trying to figure out if maybe starting a business or working from home may be a better option for us. We have about $89,000 in debt and I work full-time and I have an hour drive to work every day. And my husband works full-time, but he works a night shift from 10 at night till six in the morning. And we have two children. My oldest has started kindergarten. So we had

help with drop off and pick up with my mother-in-law, but she has had some health issues and she can't drive right now. So that's putting on me doing the bedtime routine and the drop-offs in the morning and my husband waking up early to pick her up from school. So we're just exhausted. I don't know if that would be a good option for us, considering the amount of debt we have. What do you make?

I make $57,000, but I'm set to get a raise starting October 1. Okay. What do you do? And I'm not too sure about my husband. I'm an account stable. Okay. And what's your husband do? He works in a manufacturing plant.

He drives a forklift. Okay. What would be the business that you two would start? I'm presuming you guys have kicked around some ideas if you ask us that. Well, it would be me. I have some experience in grant writing, and I was thought about doing that as a side hustle. But then I'm thinking, well, maybe a business, a full-time business might be a better option so that I can take care of the kids.

It's only a better option. It's only a better option. I don't know what grant writers make. I presume that you know, but it's only a better option if you're making the exact same amount of money or more with absolute opportunity to grow that. Other than that, you're just going to have to press through. This is a tough season of life. You've got debt to pay off. Well, the other thing is you could just change jobs. Yeah.

Or you don't have an hour commute. An hour commute in Knoxville is unusual. Knoxville is not that big. I live outside of Knoxville. I'm more towards North Carolina, but Knoxville is my closest city. I have 30 minutes to the closest town. I actually, and that's if I go straight to work, it's an hour drive. I have to drop off one child at my mother's 30 minutes away and then to work and drop my mother off at work

because she can't drive right now. So I'm actually, I want to have my morning commute and then pick up my one daughter on the way home. I was born in East Tennessee. Honey, what city are you in? Our address is Hartford. Yeah, okay. That's where the rafting companies are.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well, the job that your husband has is replaceable in a day position, not an overnight, because he doesn't make a ton of money. Your job is replaceable. If you found something there that even if it paid less, and you got two hours a day back, you could do grant writing as a side hustle. Yeah.

Okay. But driving in an hour is part of what the problem is. You're burning two hours a day just to go make $57,000. And what you're telling me is that that's not worth it. And him working overnight just to make, what's he making, $25? Close to that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And there's no reason to do night shift to make $25.

You can make $25 at Target. And get him back on a day clock, you on a day clock that helps cut your commute down that helps but jumping out and just declaring i am now in small business in a time in a small town in the hills of east tennessee suddenly and give up my you're the major breadwinner in the place, give up the biggest share of your income and hope it works out. No, I'm not going to tell you to do that. But I am with you that something has to change. Another thing that could change, and this is really painful, but you could move.

Because you're basically driving into Knoxville is what you're telling me. Severe County, yes. Yeah yeah what would keep you from moving i heard your response to that as an it's not an option why is that not an option it's family land um that's great it's a little hard to chew that up and eat it and And right now you're having trouble eating, and you're completely exhausted, ready to just throw yourself off of a career cliff and hope you hit a pad on the bottom. No. So I think you guys got to put a whole bunch of anything's on the table

until it's not. Him changing to a day job you all moving halfway between so you get some things back are you changing jobs to something there in your town but um you know like you said what you the life that you've built you didn't build it has happened to you by default and it's tearing your butt up and you've got to change. So you've, you've identified something's got to give. And so my suggestion is that you decide what's going to give and that it's wise, meaning that you just quit a $57,000 a year job because I'm worn out and go get and open up a job hoping you make, and you end up making nothing.

No open up a small business. No, that I would not recommend that to anyone. I would recommend you start your small business as a side hustle, but you don't have any time to do that right now in this current situation. Yeah, it's fascinating to me, and not picking on Amanda at all, because I've seen this so many times, this idea that proximity to family or some type of family land or some benefit that I perceive as a benefit tied to my

family as one of the key reasons why my life is otherwise miserable is so backwards. And you've got to get to a point where you go, what must be true for my life to be better? And then you stop thinking, well, I have to figure it out in the terms of I got to be in your family or I got to live on this family land. Everything is on the table when you're this tired. I agree. It's quality of life. Bill is in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Hi, Bill. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. I really appreciate it. Sure. What's up? Got a quick question.

My wife and I bought a spec house last year that was about 40% finished when we purchased it. And so we had the opportunity to make changes and add things with signed change orders with the builder. And we ended up adding about 250K to the price as far as what we paid. And then when we closed in December and the sale was recorded, it was recorded as the original sale price and didn't include any of the change orders we did. So I'm just wondering, is that accurate, or can it include the change orders that we did? Why would you want them included? In most states, you record the deed based on the sale price, and that's going to increase your closing costs. Well, I guess the reason was just when we paid cash for the house,

and so I was thinking at some point if we sell it, it would look better that we purchased it for XML as opposed to XML minus $250,000 minus 250k no no doesn't affect sale price at all what affects sale price when you get ready to sell it is the actual value of the house which includes the 250k worth of stuff so when you get ready to list it five years from now you're going to say this is so many square feet and by the way we added all of these things to it when we bought it five years ago and so it's a it's a top of the market uh appliances or top of the market flooring or whatever it is you you put in that increase those things and so make sure you're considering that when we decide what we're going to list it for and also you let the appraiser know at that time, but what you paid for it or what the tax rolls show has nothing to do with the actual value. I mean, case in point would be if you bought it at foreclosure

for 50% of value, that doesn't keep it from being valuable. It's still worth 100%, even though you bought it at 50% at a deal. And in this case, it just recorded. No, it doesn't affect anything at all. I wouldn't worry about it. Not a bit. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, you guys. Health insurance costs are only moving one way, and that way isn't down.

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It's a great thing. It's just hit a bunch of bestseller things this week, as a matter of fact. Very cool. Hey, the average interest rate for a 15-year mortgage dropped from 6 to 5.6 this week. And the average this week, I'm sorry, fell to 5.6 this week uh and the average this week i'm sorry fell to 5.15 the lowest we've seen since february of 23 so uh almost 20 some odd months now since we've seen an interest rate that low so if you purchase a 423 000 house with a 20 down payment on a 15-year. The interest rate change is the difference now of about $3,000, $4,000 a year is what it would save you. So yeah, if you're financially ready, if you're out of debt, you have your down payment ready and you have your emergency fund in

place, we're huge on the real estate market. And this is the time to do it. It's also a great time to sell because there's a shortage of inventory. So it's kind of a weird market in that way, but you need a good, strong real estate agent in your corner that knows what the flip they're doing, high-protein, high-octane. So go to ramseysolutions.com slash agent, and you can find the real estate agent that's Ramsey-trusted that we have vetted in your area.

So there we go. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Nicole is in Jacksonville. Hi, Nicole. How are you? Good. How are you? Better than I deserve.

What's up? Okay. So me and my husband are about to bring a baby into the world in january next year and congratulations thank you he's had this credit card um with his mom um that he's been having for like the past basically a year and a half but um she basically has, joint ownership of his, like, account and stuff like that because he's in the military. So, like, when he first got in, he was like, oh, well, you're going to oversee everything. Just make sure, like, my bills are paid and stuff like that. But she opened up her credit card, and she's running up, like, $14,000 spent.

And every time I try to talk to him about it like hey like what's going on with this like um you know is she gonna take care of it now that we're bringing a baby into the world i'm concerned and like every time she'll ask him about it like she completely like it's angry or upset and cries because she has lupus and she has like a lot of medical bills too so we're not really sure how long have you been married we've been married for a year and a half and what does he make what does he make and what do you make um he makes like 55 000 a year and me i'm a student so i'm still in school and everything so i work part time how old are you two i'm 22 and he's 23 okay so yeah and here's the thing here's the thing stop you don't have a mother-in-law problem. You have a husband problem. Okay?

So hubby has got to decide now that there's a new woman in his life that's not his mother. In the old days, people would say things like, when you get married, you leave your parents and cleave to your spouse leave and cleave we called it okay and there's a boundary drawn there's a new household has been established a year and a half ago now it has a baby entering it okay and we're not going to blame any of this on the baby we're going to blame all of this on your husband the day you all got married it was his job as a man to separate all of his accounts from his mother this is very boyish not manly behavior yes that he's engaging in

and so uh you if i'm in your shoes i'm gonna sit down very calmly and i don't care if his mom cries i'm sorry and i don't care i'm sorry she has lupus but the reason she's crying is because she's ashamed and because it works on her little boy so we're gonna have to help your husband run down to walmart and pick a backbone. They're on aisle three. And then he's going to walk in there very calmly and gently and say, Mom, now that I'm married and I have my own family, we're not going to have any more joint accounts. So everything is being closed today. And you're going to reopen your own accounts, Mom. And you need to pay this $14,000 you ran up on this credit card.

Okay? And if she doesn't, you'll have to because it's got your husband's name on it. This is a mistake that he has made, and it may cost him and you $14,000 because I got a feeling this woman's not going to pay this. Don't you? Yeah. Yeah. And you're not to be involved at all.

You'll become the wicked daughter-in-law. It'll be all your fault because this woman is a travel agent for guilt trips. Okay. Yeah. Every time I try to talk to her about it. Nope, nope, nope. No, don't you ever try to like talk to her about it. Nope, nope, nope. No, don't you ever say a word to her about this again. But your husband, he needs to throw his shoulders back and become a man.

Today. Today. This is weak and fearful behavior. He needs to become courageous, bold, gentle with his mom. There's no reason to be mean to her. He's the one entered into this arrangement, but it does need to be very thorough and complete immediately. It's absurd that a man that is married and has a baby on the way

has joint accounts with his mommy that's ridiculous okay you can play this back for him if you want he needs to square yeah he needs to square his shoulders and walk in there i don't want him to be unkind to his mom but it was his duty the week before you got married to separate everything when my kids were getting married we sat down two weeks before i transferred every single mutual fund that was theirs every single checking account or piece of savings that was theirs completely out of our name and if they went and did something stupid with it the next day that's on them because they're now what's known as grown-up adults and so i'm it's not my job anymore to manage them

they are now free agents they're grown people and you don't you don't even have to get married to do that but that happened to be the when we made sure that everything was final because i did not want to be interfering with my in-law my daughter's in-law son's-in-law just like nicole situation this is happening more and more yeah i i the the emotional umbilical cord needs to be cut and this is the reason why is because the lupus she's my mom she did this she's done that and you cannot think rationally when you were thinking emotionally you cannot have a rational thought at the same time that you have an emotional thought and this tie together he's never going to act rational until the clear cut has happened and i really would recommend that he watched this so that he realizes you're not the

bad person and and you don't be pissed if somebody be pissed at me it's like a spiritual gift i have i'm fine with that yeah cut the cord there's entire reddit pages devoted to doing that so you can and comment sections of everything by the way this is only going to get worse i want the young man every every day this is going to get worse every day this goes on and we're not even going to blame this on the baby oh no not the baby this is something should have been done before there was a baby well i'll tell you it's the big baby i'm blaming it on the big baby not the baby in the womb the baby who has yet to mature yeah uh and by the way mom enabled this so there's enough blame to go around able it she

manipulated she wanted it she likes this he was a mama's boy to go to the military and say, mom, pay my bills. Yep. Yep. I'm not blaming that all on him. Yep. We got to let these kids fly, folks. Kick them out of the nest. That's what the birds do. That's, um, this is a national problem to your point. It's a real problem. It's a real problem. This is The Ramsey Show. There's a time in your life and in the baby steps for renting, but you don't want to do it forever because when you rent, you're still paying for a mortgage, just somebody else's. Plus, rent means instability in your budget because it always goes up, never down. So when you're ready to buy, make sure you work with a mortgage partner you can rely on, Churchill Mortgage. Churchill is Ramsey trusted to help you make the move from renting

to home ownership wisely. Churchill understands that when you buy a home the Ramsey way, your mortgage payment will be a consistent, manageable part of your monthly budget. Plus, when your home is paid off, that was your largest expense. Now it's extra money in your pocket and an asset towards turning you into a baby steps millionaire. So get started on the American dream of home ownership today at churchhillmortgage.com. That's churchhillmAccess.org. Equal housing lender. 1749 Mallory Lane, Suite 100.

Brentwood, Tennessee 37027. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Today's Ramsey Network app question comes from the Ramsey Network app, obviously. If you don't know what that is, you can download that app for free and you get this entire show every day on video and audio. So you can turn into a podcast or a video watch, whatever you want. The last segment of this show every day is available only on the Ramsey Network app. So be sure and do that. And you can do stuff like ask a question there, which is what happened here.

Taryn sent us a question, Ken. My husband and I just had a healthy baby girl in July and are transitioning out of stork mode and back into gazelle intensity. In preparation for the hospital bills, we were maxing out our HSA and have used nearly all of that money on covering those bills. I'm nervous to stop contributing to the HSA and having no funds for a medical emergency to at least cover our deductible. Can you please ease my worries and explain why HSA contributions should also stop? Because all savings stops when you're in gazelle intensity mode.

That's why. Medical, car repair, everything. We're walking out on the $1,000 tight wire, and we're going to get in attack mode and clean this stuff up. But you do need to finish up whatever you're doing through the HSA with the medical bills, and I didn't get any problem with that with this particular set of medical bills. But the HSA is an emergency fund only for a medical emergency. It doesn't cover other emergencies.

And so it's like a part-time emergency fund, a partial emergency fund, and we don't fund that until we get to baby step three. And so, no, I would not do that. Now, the exception, no, there's not an exception. I just would not do that. I'm trying to think through. No, nope, nope, simple, simple. Jacob is in louisville kentucky hi jacob welcome to the ramsey show hi dave hi ken ken uh how are y'all doing better than we deserve what's up

all right so my wife and i we have a long-term goal to purchase some land outside of louisville and to build a cabin on it and just make that our full time home. Makes it close to church and keeps us away from, honestly, the city, which we so desperately want. But we're trying to see how we can financially do that. We found some land we like. We have a price on it. We know how much the house would be to build on it. But I just don't know if we're in a financial spot to do it.'s the total package land and cabin right now sure yeah so land is 80 000 i think i can get them down to 70 but you know we'll say 80 um and then house is 330 okay so let's call it 400 okay do you. Okay, do you own a home currently?

Yes. And what is it worth? It's worth $225,000. Okay, is it paid for? I have $150,000 left on the mortgage. Okay, so you get $70,000 from that if you sell it as a down payment on your cabin and land of $400,000. So you would take out a mortgage of $330,000 in that case. Am I right? Yes.

Okay. And what's your household income? Collectively around $150,000. Okay. So can you take out a $330,000 15-year fixed rate mortgage at 5% today and it be about a fourth of your take-home pay? I don't think you can can you uh no no i don't think so that's we're thinking and tell me if i'm being dumb which i

probably am uh to purchase the land pay it off and then sell our home no it doesn't change anything no you can just save up the money to buy land and then sell your home. It's the same exact thing. Are you out of debt other than the house? We have a car loan that's going to go away here in the next week. It'll be done. Then you need to build your emergency fund, and then you need to be putting 15% away for retirement

and start saving for land. But you're not ready to do this deal today you can't afford it gotcha we have 30 already saved up does that change anything on there or well where's your emergency fund we have about 20,000 mutual funds and 30,000 in savings okay all right so how much of your50,000 should be your emergency fund? Which that would cover what in all of that? Three to six months of expenses. Okay.

$20,000. Okay. All right. And so you've got $30,000 then to put between the two things. You'd cash out the mutual fund. You have $30,000 to put towards it. So now instead of $70,000, we're putting down $100,000. When your down payment is enough that your house payment becomes a fourth of your take-home pay,

we're fine with that. And then you go get a construction loan that buys the land and builds the cabin. You may need to rent for a little while while you're doing that and get your house sold. You may have to move twice to make this work, but you've got to get that mortgage amount down to where your house payment's no more than a fourth of your take-home pay on a 15-year fixed. And so your take-home pay is what, $8,000, $9,000? Yes. Okay.

If we call it $10,000, you can take a $2,500 house payment as an example, right? Okay, right. And I don't think that's going to support a $330,000 mortgage, but as you save more money, you're going to get in a position to do that. So it may be this particular piece of land gets away. But if you go buy the land now and finance it, you're going to slow down the speed at which you pull this off because you've got more debt then to support while you're trying to do all this savings so

be careful that you don't do your dreams jacob in such a way that they become a nightmare and so let's just slow down you'll get there or let's change the house plan build less house on this land or let's change the construction process and not where it doesn't cost as much. I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about building on this acreage, but, you know, I think you went shopping for a house or for a piece of land before you were ready, and now you've got land fever. Yeah, I remember getting land fever when we first moved here.

It's dangerous to keep going and looking at land when you're not ready. Just wait until you're ready. There you got land fever yeah i remember getting land fever when we first moved here it's dangerous to keep going and looking at land when you're not ready just wait till you're ready there you go it's hard acknowledge that that's hard chris is in tampa hi chris welcome to the ramsey show hey guys thanks for taking my call sure what's up um so i have uh two homes uh one is a rental and one is my primary. The rental has become more than I want to deal with in my life. So much for passive income, right? And I've decided to sell it. And I guess my question is, I have a financial advisor I work with who's done really well for me throughout my life, and he thinks that it would be in my best interest to take the proceeds from the rental and invest the money.

The proceeds will probably be about $150,000-ish. But I feel like I should take the money and put it in, pay down my primary mortgage. You are right. Your financial advisor is wrong. And why do you say that? Because as we studied millionaires, 10,000 of them in the largest study a millionaire has ever done, we found that they had two primary things that made them wealthy. Steadily investing in their retirement plans like 401ks

and good mutual funds okay and getting their home paid off the typical millionaire that we run into say they had a million and a half million eight net worth something like that the first stage of millionaire status they're sitting on a four or five six hundred thousand dollar paid for house and they got four or five six hundred thousand bucks in their in their 401k very very few of them became millionaires by investing with their financial advisor while keeping debt on their home because it's essentially from a balance sheet perspective what you stumbled into with your direction chris is that it's as if you've borrowed on your home to invest, and you would never do that. Correct. Yeah, because by not paying it down and instead investing,

it has the exact same mathematical effect as having borrowed on your home in order to invest, and that would be ludicrous from a risk management standpoint because now you're putting your home at risk to play footsie with something your advisor wants to do. No thank you. Yeah. Okay, cool. I wanted to hear what you guys thought. I had a feeling you were going to say that. Yeah, I'm fairly predictable. I've been saying the same thing over and over and over again for a long time. My pastor told me that they go, you say the same thing over and over. I said, so do you. Right. Well played. That's a great point.

For 30 years. Yeah. It's very predictable. But it turns out that the data actually backs up this idea of being debt-free is one of the key elements of building wealth. That's right. It's undisputable. There we go. It's called data.

Yeah. It's a fact. Those whole fact things. Facts get in the way of all this feelings. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Elliot is going to start this hour off in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Hey, Elliot, what's up? Hey, how are you guys doing? Better than we deserve. How can we help?

Well, thank you guys for what you do. My parents became millionaires just following your guys' plan. I'm calling because my brother-in-law, he's a little younger than me. He's 24. He's a pretty successful guy, crazy hard worker, but he's starting to get caught up in a peer-to-peer lending program that unfortunately another family friend is talking him into. I know I can't, you know, just kind of be like, this is stupid and ended at that. Do you guys have any advice? How do I talk to him about this? Because he's trying to make sure it's legit, but he's also just keeps getting further into it. So, well, I mean, the only way you can convince someone is, um, is to the extent of the quality of your relationship with them. So if you have a deeper relationship with him than this

family friend, then you've got the ability to get between them. But if you have a casual relationship with him, that's about equal to the family friend, you're probably not going to be successful at this. In order to hold someone accountable and smack them in the back of the head, you have to get your arm around their shoulder. Yeah, that's fair. It starts with a hug. So, I mean, those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still. I've had very

little luck in my life answering questions that people didn't ask he he has asked oh oh good which is cool and i've he called you and asked you about this yeah he was talking with me about it and i was like there's a lot of red flags going up, man. And so he's just been sending me things about it, and I've been— Is he trying to sell you in joining it? No, I think he's just trying to sell himself and kind of prove he can out-discuss me on it. Well, now you've got him in a good spot. Well, that's okay, then. That's good. Yeah, so I think that, you know, your best shot for persuasion is in person, in private.

You don't want to embarrass him in front of your sister that he's married to, I think, or your wife is his sister. I don't know, whichever it is that he's brother-in-law. But, yeah, so no embarrassment. This is not going to be over a dinner with the gals. And you start, but basically what I would do is not call him stupid what what i found is that that um the stuff that i did when i that was really stupid when i was 24 came from trying to find a shortcut i was trying to find a way to get rich quick and it's very humorous to think about that

loaning money to broke people broke that loaning money to broke people, broke people loaning money to broke people is going to cause you to get wealthy. That's what peer-to-peer lending is. It's even funnier than that because he's borrowing to lend to the peer-to-peer, but he's also, like, really successful for his age. Like, I think he could easily retire in, like, 10, 20 years if he wanted to. Yeah, but he's not successful in this. He's successful because he's ambitious and a hard worker and and he looked over here and went oh i'm this may look on the outside like it doesn't work but i'm smart enough i can do this that's what i

did and that's how i lost my butt yeah ellie i i jump in real quick to say i think since he's opened the door to you and your first response was red flags, I think you got to go back, just as Dave said, one-on-one and say, hey, I've done my research. And let me tell you what the data says that the risks are. And I would, in this case, play to the natural real fear to the actual high risk situation. This is not a manipulation. This stuff is really, really risky. Start talking about the psychological and the relationship stuff. Start talking about it's not an actual good investment strategy compared to, and start showing like the Ramsey, you know, go to our website. It's basically loaning money to people no one else will loan money to.

Yeah, you got to make the case. But make the case. It's kind of dumb. But it's got to be data-based, right? man this is risky here's why and the other thing i would do is i would appeal to him to say okay what you know let's study wealthy people how many of them used shortcuts to get there they really don't they use their innate uh work ethic and uh go-getter mentality in, I think, Elliot, that your brother-in-law's secret sauce is him, not that he hasn't found the right thing to accelerate it yet. He's the secret sauce. I want him to hear from you that you think he's amazing

and that this is a total waste. It would be a waste of his time. He's got the ability to go far and go fast if he stays away from things like this because of who he is. So you've got this admiration of him until he lost his mind on this one thing, right? Yeah, pretty much. I'm looking at him like, man, you've been doing so well up to this point. I would say that over and over and over again.

His secret sauce is him he's the secret sauce it's not that he needs to find some you know the multi-level people all go you need to find a vehicle no you don't you're the vehicle you know i need to find i need to find a system no you don't you're the system live on lesson you make and save money work your butt off that's the system and that's the one that the wealthy people use i don't go oh i found a bitcoin there we look at that it made it easy oh i found an algorithm where i can do lotto tickets no you didn't okay and so i mean this is what get rich quick is based on. That's right. It is based on desperation or greed. Yeah. Yeah. And it always, in either case requires a level of pride and pride is what comes right before you fall. I did every one of these stupid, but things, every part of

my story of losing everything in my twenties is because of those exact things. Because I thought I could do nothing down, flip real estate and get away with it because I was so smart. And everyone that does that eventually goes completely freaking broke. Um, all the guys that did it when I did it are all either out of the business or they paid off their debt one of the two they either went broke doing nothing down flip this house before there

was chip and joanna they weren't even born yet okay and so this but it's this stuff has been around forever but it's it's all rooted in desperation or greed in your brother-in-law's case it's greed that's right not not filthy greed like horrible, nasty person greed. Just like I think I can do this because I'm smarter than the average cat. The rules don't apply to me because I'm smart and I work hard and I'm ahead of the game. There's something about all of these things that I want to make sure the audience catches what Dave said earlier. Every shortcut that exists always requires you to suspend common sense. And the reason it does is because you feel like it's that emotional,

I figured out the hack, and I'm going to short-circuit the system. And so your emotion takes over. So the law of gravity doesn't apply to me. Exactly. That's emotion-based. Flap your arms, boy. You're about to hit the sidewalk. Law of gravity applies. Boomap your arms, boy. You're about to hit the sidewalk.

Law of gravity applies. Boom. Put your helmet on. There's going to be a little print right there on the sidewalk. I know, man. That's exactly what I did. You know? I understood intellectually the dangers of leverage. But I thought I could beat it.

That's the classic example. Flap your dadgum arms and hit the sidewalk. That's it, man. The law of gravity does not apply to me. Mm-hmm. This is The Ramsey Show. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get ten different answers.

Economic growth or a recession. Business taxes will go up or down. AI will help us work or it will replace us all. But there's no such thing as a crystal ball. That's why more than 40,000 businesses have future-proofed themselves with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud enterprise resource planning system. Ramsey Solutions uses NetSuite and you should too. Whether your company's earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. With one unified business management suite, there's only one source

of truth for the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. NetSuite's real-time insights and forecasting help you see into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can spend less time looking backward and more time focusing on what's next. And speaking of what's next, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. It's free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today, number one bestselling author. The best way to make the most of your money is by doing it on purpose.

Most people don't win with their money because we can your money is by doing it on purpose most people don't win with their money because we can't get them to do it on purpose if you will simply make the money that you have behave and go towards your goals you will start hitting your goals but most people kind of wander along half asleep and then wake up at retirement going oh man oh man hope the government which is well known for its ability to handle money, will take care of me. Bad idea. You need a plan. A plan monthly is called a budget. The best budgeting app on the planet is called EveryDollar because you give every dollar an assignment. Every dollar of your life is put to work. Download the EveryDollar budgeting app for free in the App Store.

Tens of millions of people, not exaggerating, are using this app now. Yeah, and you're not. What's up? EveryDollar. It's free in the App Store or Google Play. Check it out. And, of course, you can click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or a podcast. We'll take you straight in there.

Josh is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Josh. How are you? I'm anxious, Dave. How are you? Oh, okay. Better than I deserve. What's up? Well, my wife is a contract worker. She's doing HR recruiting, and the contract that she's with is slowing down dramatically to the point where signs are on the walls that she may be losing her job in the next

month or two. We are pushing hard to get out of debt, have a medical loan from earlier this year that we are hoping to be paid off by the end of this year. But our concern is with the proposed incoming doom on the horizon, should we forego hitting debt hard to switch to, oh, no, we need to start saving for a few months. What I can't tell here is you gave a lot of metaphors and dramatic things, but no one has ever said anything to her about this other than she's observing things around her and feels like this is coming to a close. I think she needs to go in and get some actual input from the leadership team. So the leadership team has told them that with the

way things are slowing down, they don't know how much longer their contract is going to be valid for. But I would have another follow-up question to that. Okay. So how long is the current contract going to last? In other words, is this a reset or whoever's paying that contract can close that contract out at any time? I just get really detailed on that. But real quick, Josh, I would immediately, if I was in your situation and it was my wife in her situation, I would have her immediately looking for a replacement work. I wouldn't necessarily pause on the debt elimination. I'd get real aggressive to have some options out there while having this conversation. Let me tell you this. If this is bad enough that you need to stop

all progress in your financial plan and pile up cash because she's going to lose her job, then she needs to go get another job yeah right now is it that bad it's it's starting to see that uh they did a massive and you are hedging all over this year you sound like a worrier i can't tell if you're worrying or if this is really happening starting to no it's not it either is this bad enough that she's ready to quit her job and go get another one it's bad enough that we ended up going to urgent care due to stress-related illnesses yesterday okay then happen to this situation yeah then don't stand around wait on this to happen to you be proactive yes stop everything start piling up cash and put her in a

an aggressive job hunt she needs a new job in two weeks. And then she needs to quit and take the new job. No discussing this. This is hard, cold break. These people have said, we're about to poop on you, so dodge the poop. Okay? Fair enough. I mean, get get after it they told you what's they told you it's coming dodge i'm telling you when i hear about a storm coming i start to make adjustments to the storm we don't go well it could hit us it may not like if it's dangerous

this is dangerous financially address it get out in front of it ken and i are the two guys standing in the front yard watching the tornado keep that in mind that is true i that was the right that's both of us all right just just keep in mind that's how you're talking i am ready but i'm waiting till the last i can still get out of the way yeah right ole right i never worry about dave and where the storm is coming because I know he's watching. No, right where he is. I'm going to be walking right straight into it. Jennifer is in New York.

Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Hi, Ken. I love you guys. I'm hoping that you can help me with an issue. My husband and I would like to purchase a one-acre lot of land, but it's currently owned by a dissolved LLC.

And there is an $87,000 tax lien on it owned by the town, which exceeds the value of the land, which is most likely between 30 to 50,000. I have reached out to a couple of lawyers and they have let me know this is beyond their scope. They've never seen, like, a weird situation like this. And I thought, who better to help me than the two. You can't get a clear title unless the tax lien is cleared. So unless the town will accept a value, appraised value, you're about to overpay for this piece of ground. No thank you. Right.

So I do. Is this in New York State? This is in New Jersey. In New Jersey, okay. Some states, I don't know about New Jersey, sell tax liens to individuals. They auction them off, and you buy them not for the amount of the tax lien, but less than the amount of the tax lien, and then you can take that tax lien and foreclose on the property and have clear title. So if Jersey sells tax liens, Tennessee does not.

If you were in Tennessee, you would have to go into the city municipality, go in to talk to the, if it's a small town, the mayor, if it's otherwise you talk to the tax assessor and say, you have more owed on this property than it is worth. When you foreclose, you're not going to get all of the tax stuff out of this. Can we negotiate down to actual appraisal? And then you got to figure out why the current people that gave up and walked away would bother to sign because they're not going to get anything out of this right so i don't think you're getting this piece of land probably it's probably a whole lot more trouble than it's worth sounds to me like but it's worth poking around and learning about i guess if

you if you're interested in it quick research says says you can do it in the tax. It does allow for it in New Jersey. I don't know what the process is, but you can do it. You can buy a tax lien. They do allow that. Okay. Well, talk to the city and find out what you do to buy that tax lien. If you buy the tax lien, then you foreclose on the tax lien.

The former owner would have to pay you $87,000. You paid $60,000 for it, okay? And they would have to pay you $87,000. You paid 60 for it, okay? And they would have to pay you $87,000 to stop your foreclosure. Now, the other thing you need to learn about then, Jennifer, and if you want to keep typing in there, Ken, you can, does this have a right of redemption? Some tax liens have a two-year right of redemption. So you could go through all this foreclose, and they can come back any time during that two years or one year or whatever the right of redemption is and redeem it. Okay, the owner of a property or legally interested party

may redeem at any time as long as foreclosure has not begun. Okay, that's not a right of redemption then. That just stops the foreclosure, okay? But after foreclosure, some of them have an additional, and you need to make sure of that. So what I would talk to, Jennifer, is if you're going to go buy the tax lien, before you do that, talk to a title company about what it's going to take for you to get clean title and buy title insurance. Okay.

Okay? But my guess is if you can buy the $87,000, what's the property worth? It's probably only worth $30,000 to $50,000. Why are you interested in it? Yeah. So it is a lot that is directly next to our property. Oh, okay. It was from a builder who actually built our house on one acre, and then he, I think, went bankrupt during the process,

sold off a bunch of the land to the town but they must have had an oversight and not realized that this piece of land didn't transfer to the town so we're trying to purchase this perfect yeah i would go in and try to buy the tax lien for less than the value of the property and then do the foreclosure or if the builder will just sign it over to you as a favor and waive any rights of redemption, you can have clear title tomorrow. But you don't want to pay 87 for 30. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, you guys.

I'm not a fan of the big banks, and you probably already know which ones I mean. But I do like credit unions because they're nonprofit organizations that focus on their members. And I'm proud to endorse Fairwinds Credit Union because they share the Ramsey mission of helping people get out of debt and live generously. In fact, they design products to help keep you from going into debt in the first place. Fairwinds has been in business for over 75 years, and they serve hundreds of thousands of members worldwide. You can feel secure because your deposits are federally insured by the NCUA up to $250,000. It's easy to join, and Fairwinds partners with more than 5,000 credit union locations around the country.

So you can bank in person wherever you live. But if you prefer the online experience, you can log on to Fairwinds and do anything you could do at a physical location. So go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey to learn more. And while you're there, look at the combined checking and savings account bundle they created just for Ramsey fans to help you take control of your finances. That's fairwinds, F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host. We invite you to stop by and hang out in the Ramsey Solutions lobby anytime you want. We do this show from 1 to 4 Central Time every day. And we can come in and sit down for free.

We've got homemade chocolate chip cookies and coffee. It's all on us. It smells like Mama's Kitchen in here sit down for free. We've got homemade chocolate chip cookies and coffee. It's all on us. Smells like Mama's Kitchen in here, not corporate America. And we've usually got 50 to a couple hundred folks sitting around watching us do the show, and they can hear the show and all that. Also, in the lobby, we have a little stage that we call the debt-free stage. On the debt-free stage is Quincy. Hi, Quincy.

How are you? Good. How are you, Mr. Ramsey? How are you, Mr. Coleman? Good. Better than we deserve, sir. Where do you live? I live in St. Hi, Quincy. How are you? Good. How are you, Mr. Ramsey? How are you, Mr. Coleman? Good. Better than we deserve, sir. Where do you live? I live in St. Louis, Missouri. Very cool. Well, welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you paid off, Quincy? Paid off $55,000. Good for you. How long did that take?

36 months. Good for you. And your range of income during that three years? $24,000 to $85,000. Good for you. What do you do for living? I'm a business consultant. Good. Very good. All right. What kind of debt was the $55,000? It was a rental property and two cars. You paid off a rental property for $55,000? I did. Sounds like a fine piece of property. So the rental property, I had $11,000 left on it. And the two vehicles, I had a truck, which was worth $15,000 at the time. More than the rental property. More than the rental property. And then I had my Cadillac, which I had just purchased at the beginning of that year.

When I started my debt-free journey, that was around $29,000. Okay so what's the story what happened how'd you run into Ramsey and what made you decide to clean all of this up in just 36 months because you leaned in man congratulations. Thank you I appreciate it so before I even knew a financial peace university or Ramsey solutions we were on the same page and I didn't even know it before. In high school, I had a negative experience with debt, with credit cards. And so when I moved out of my mom's house, that's when all of that came to light. And paying off those two credit cards that I had no control over at the time, it really frustrated me. And so I started learning about finances and APR and interest rates right out of high school, entering into college. And then I didn't like college. So

I had, thankfully I had got a scholarship. I gave that back and I decided to join the military to just give me some stability until I decided to do what I wanted to do next. And so when I joined the military, they sent me to El Paso, Texas. And the home church that I found in El Paso offers FPU. And so I learned more about Ramsey Solutions and learned more about financial literacy when I started FPU. And from there, I mean, my coordinator, Mr. Carlos and his wife, Mr. Carlos is with us today, but they were spiritual mentors. They were financial accountability partners to me. And they led me through, they led me through the course and I learned so much more. So what branch of the military? Army. And how old were you when you landed in El Paso?

I was 20. Wow. 20. Thanks for serving our country. Yes, thank you. And thank you, God, for setting a mentor like Mr. Carlos right on a 20-year-old young dude in the Army. Completely changed the trajectory of your life, didn't they? Most definitely.

Yeah, that church. Way to go. What church is this? Hope City Community Church in El Pas definitely yeah that church way to go what church is this hope city community church in el paso texas way to go hope city you're living out your name baby you just laid out and you laid out hope right here and did it that's exactly what's supposed to happen that's exactly right wow you love somebody enough to get all up in their life and help them change the whole trajectory of everything and because you're looking at stuff that they're bringing you going, Oh man, Oh man,

I can just see what I can see it happening. We want it. Most definitely. Yes, sir. Man, I love this. That's powerful.

That's powerful, dude. You got a debt to pay back to young guys later on. You got to be Mr. Carlos the rest of your life man you this is awesome i love it i love it too so what was uh what was the most difficult adjustment after you so you're watching fpu you're engaged in the class and here you are young guy uh in the military probably surrounded by a lot of other young guys with the first time they've ever had any money in their

pocket most definitely what was the the big challenge for you to begin to adjust your lifestyle after you learned all this? Well, it wasn't much of adapting to the principles because these are all godly principles, and I grew up in the church. So that part I understood, and I was very excited for. What I really needed to adjust with was making sure that I stayed focused, speaking that there were young people around me and even older people around me. We're talking sergeants or, you know, sergeant first class, sergeant majors that are stunting, so to speak.

Like they have everything together. And me sitting over here eating on beans and rice. And when I found out what moonlighting was, I became a travel CNA. I got that certification while I was in the military, and I got the document signed by my commander. And because of that, I was able to work overnight shifts, which were, you know, that helped. And that's what allowed me to be able to go full force with, you know, paying off my vehicle at the time. It jumped my income up as

well as, you know, when I started my business after I got out the military. And so I... So you're how old now? I'm 25. How's it feel to be free, man? Oh, it feels, it feels great. You kind of feel so empowered empowered you gotta feel like you got muscle well it's not just that mr remsey but it's more so i have a responsibility to pass it forward yeah that's what i yeah i've already called that out yes sir yeah but i'm

just saying you you're you're incredible i'm so proud of you well done what a sharp young dude man glory to god yeah amen glory to god Mr. Carlos and that church, man. That's good stuff right there. That's the way it's supposed to be. So you got a young private out there left home for the first time, doesn't know squat. He's listening to us right now. What do you tell him? Well, I would tell that private specifically to live below their means and to make sure that they understand who

they are. And if they don't know who they are, focus on who they are and whose they are, because that ultimately will help them not have to feel that pressure and that burden of living like everyone else. Yeah, because it's not worth it. Shoot, you nailed it right there. One of the things we find among people that are able to build wealth and you discovered it and are walking in it and you just gave that same advice back is that you have to lose the need to impress others. Yes, sir. When you quit caring what other people think, building wealth becomes very easy because you really need to spend almost no time on Instagram. Very true. because you don't care what anybody thinks you're not posting look at me look at me look at me because you don't care

what people think just i'm on beans and rice i'm gonna get my overnight i'm gonna get my cna i'm gonna jack this to 84 000 a year i'm gonna get done here in 36 months mic drop man you're incredible very cool very coolat, neat story. I love it, Quincy. Very, very well done. All right. So that advice, you would just teach them to, yeah, that's good advice. Very good advice.

What am I missing? Nothing. I just think if you were going to share for people what it feels like now on the other side of this, you're about ready to do your debt-free scream. In about 20 seconds, what does it feel like now as you're looking at your future? It feels bright is such an understatement. I was purposeful before, but it's even more empowering. And it feels like that I'm creating a legacy and breaking generational curses like never before. Is the American dream live and well to you? It is live and well.

Yeah. Wow. Thanks again for your service. Proud of you. Way to go to that church and to Mr. Carlos. And that's just beautiful. By the way, he's here, right? Is that Mr. Carlos?

This is Mr. Carlos. And then this right here is Mr. Allen. Mr. Allen, thankfully, was able to make it because he lives here in Franklin, Tennessee. But he's the one that sold me my first house at 19 years old. Oh, wow. Oh, very cool. That's fun. Good, good.

Way to go. All right, Quincy from St. Louis, $55,000 paid off. What a great story. In 36 months, making $24,000 to $85,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. I a debt-free scream three two one i'm debt-free that is what you call transformation he will not go back he will not well done this is the ramsey show i've been doing this show for over 30 years and some of the saddest calls

I've taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible. People that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills in the am I going to eat next week? Yeah. In the middle of all that grief. Like it's just, it is, it's terrible. And so life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You

just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here. You got to say it out loud and you got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com. Today's question of the day is brought to you by Y-Refi. 93% of undergraduate private student loans are co-signed.

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That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Andre in Indiana. I'm being managed out of my job at my current employer. When I realized what was happening, I got ahead of it and have turned in my resignation, so I won't have a termination on my employment record. I have several interviews lined up, and I'm not worried about finding another position. My question is, how should I approach obtaining a letter of reference from my current employer

should I need it? Well, you're going to approach it now before you leave the building, number one. Number two, you're going to approach it with some gratitude and humility and just say, hey, I appreciate this opportunity to be here. And I would love if you feel comfortable being a reference for me and give me a reference letter upon request. Are you comfortable with that? It's just a man-to-man conversation or man-to-woman conversation. And that's about all you can do there.

Hopefully you've left well. We don't know what the situation here is, but I'm such a proponent for people leaving well. Even if you feel like you're not supposed to be there anymore, even if you feel like you've got some tension, you feel like maybe it wasn't the best situation for you, leaving well and not burning that bridge is always the right way to go because you have to assume that any future employer is going to call your past employer. And so humility and gratitude and class would be the three ingredients in the ask. And, by the way, with every remaining second you have at that place before you leave, act with class.

Yeah, smile, act with class, do everything. So most employers, Andre, do not give references on formers because of the liability. And so we don't. If someone calls here, the only thing we'll confirm is that they worked here between this date and that date. And that's the only thing we'll tell you. We won't say whether they're awesome. I didn't realize that. That's good for me to know.

I did not. I've heard of that. I didn't know that. Because we don't want to get sued. Right. Because we referred them or told somebody, you know, this guy, he wasn't good. Right. And then you turn around, you get all this other stuff on you.

So, yeah, we just, and that's not that unusual in the employment market. We've learned. When we're trying to check references the uh it's tough to get people to actually um give you a reference i want to sidestep ken i want you to coach for a second here and i want to join you in it um let's pretend that andre i'm going to make up something for andre i don't know anything about him so this is all pretend sure okay let's pretend he's 26 and this is his second job and he says i'm being managed out of my job now if you were working at ramsey we don't manage people out of a job we do manage them if they're not competent. We're going to talk to you about it and help you work on your competence.

We do manage you and talk to you about it and create uncomfortable conversations if you're not handling your relationships with others inside the building well, if you're being a twerp okay and so um being the being the potential employer of someone in this situation uh i i wouldn't take the position i'm being managed out yeah unless you've got a pure political situation going on it i mean just because someone tells you to suck it up, buttercup, and get better, that is not being managed out. That's correct. So if I were coaching Andre, I would ask a lot of detailed questions. What does that actually mean? And to the best of my ability, be able to discern, well, you're not being managed out, or maybe you are. Now, what it's going to look like

in this case, if we're assuming what he's saying is that someone is basically being um uh making you as uncomfortable as possible not in a way of leading you for growth uh and having an uncomfortable conversation with your growth in mind but actually being a turd to you to get you to quit because they don't want to fire you does that happen it does yeah but in this case that this case, that's bad leadership. So I would be asking enough questions to find out what's really going on. And to your point, if they are holding you to a standard that they hired you to keep, you aren't being managed out. You're being held accountable for what they're paying you for. So I would be diving into what's really going on and then coaching from there. And in many cases, and I'm going to say this. Just because you're uncomfortable. That's right. Doesn't mean

you're being managed out. That's correct. Or held to a standard. Right. And so what we've got to determine, we're seeing this a lot with the younger generation, accountability is really, really hard. We had one a while back that just couldn't seem to get to work on time wander in an hour late and we say you know well you're creating stress by yeah that's kind of like what we do here we create stress for you you need to be here on time if that's stressful just suck it up i mean that's a i know i'm sorry about your anxiety get your butt to work on time okay this is what we do and so uh and that's about how it would sound i mean we might be a little kinder than that but you know it's a pretty simple thing

we open the building at a certain time and you need to be here by then yeah you have to reframe that it's not creating stress right they say i'm not creating stress but it's like anyone that ever told me i'm not perfect in the apple of my mother's eye now is managing me out exactly that's or creating a bunch of crap that's what i'm saying yeah okay so now there's two possibilities you're you're being that i'm not saying that andre is but if you be careful when you're using a phrase like i'm being managed out you are taking the position of victim and you might not be the victim that's right that's what i'm saying you might be you might be the victim you might not be the victim. That's right. That's what I'm saying. You might be the victim. You might be a bunch of political junk, and they're moving the chess pieces around,

trying to knock you over and get you out because they don't want you there, and they don't have the backbone to just fire you. Right. You know, the metaphor I would use here, Dave, is are you being coached or are you being mistreated? There you go. And a coach, and I usually return to sports because I grew up playing sports. Discomfort does not mean you you being mistreated there you go and a coach and i i usually return to sports because i grew up playing sports discomfort does not mean you're being mistreated yeah you know i watch these nfl training camps these are millionaires and the coach is pulling them off

off the field and they are coaching them up they're getting out those little microsoft pads on the sideline and they're showing these young quarterbacks that are franchise quarterbacks here's what you did wrong on this interception that's not mistreating that kid that is coaching that kid on what they expect of them because they're paying them millions of dollars a year and the same metaphor holds true in the workplace is your leader coaching you are they or are they mistreating you yeah that's true there's a wide exactly what i'm saying exactly what i'm saying because we spent a lot of time and money to hire you yeah get you in here that's that's right and so we're not going to manage anybody out um yeah it costs you more to replace them exactly we're going to try to help you make it that's

exactly right but that may involve discomfort and it should it usually doing something you've never done before or something you suck at and you got to get better is discomfort it's not comfortable it's outside your comfort zone a quarterback feels really uncomfortable when he runs off the field after throwing an interception because there's 75 000 people that are mad at him and his head coach but guess guess what? That's the price of admission. That is the ticket to the B and E. So step it up. So again, I think that's a good clarification.

Are you being coached? And if you are, expect discomfort because that's what's called growth. That's right. And you're moving up and in. If you're being mistreated, then you're being managed out. But either one of those could fall under this phrase. I don't like the phrase is what i'm saying it feels very victim i felt the same thing when i saw it you know yeah and it but it could be that he's just he might be the victim of some toxic politics

it very well could be mistreated that happens all the time there's no question they're bad spineless leaders will do stuff like that that's passive aggressive rather than just fire somebody that's right so you don't have that trouble here we're going to tell you this is what we're doing if it doesn't work we're going to tell you it didn't work we don't we're not scared we're not afraid and we're not mean and we're not unkind so hey guys for all of you listening to the show on youtube or the podcast it it's about to end. You can get the entire show, including the next segment, on the Ramsey Network app, which is free. Download it in the App Store or Google Play. You can go out the full video or audio podcast production, either one of the whole thing, but certainly the last segment every day. So click in the show notes and check it out.

We'd love to have you join us. The Ramsey Network app in the App Store. The whole thing's free. We're not charging a thing for this. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. The phone number here with your free call for your free question is 888-825-5225. The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Jennifer is with us in Annapolis, Maryland. Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi. Thanks so much, Dave.

I've been following you guys for a few months now, and I think you guys have some really great stuff that you can offer. Thank you. My husband and I are in a very stable financial position and we really don't have any debt aside from a rental property and our primary mortgage. And I think I've got him on board with the plan of hammering through paying off the rental property and which there's not much left on it as well as hammering through our mortgage. But he asked me a question and I didn't really have an answer to it. And that's why I'm calling. So we recently, five years ago, we built a house on the water. It is our dream home and we are thrilled to be here. And we had wanted to put a pier in. And after paying for the house, our cash reserves were, you know, pretty much allocated to that. And we

went back and forth on whether or not to build the pier. And we ended up taking a HELOC out on our property to build the pier. And our main reason for doing that was because we have young children here and we want them to enjoy the water. We moved to the water for that reason. And, you know, with your philosophy of paying cash for everything, we could have saved up in two or three years and paid for that in cash. What does a pier cost? This one was about $70,000. What do you guys make? So we have a combined income of about 550

why would it take two or three years it should take two or three months yeah i agree with you i think the way we allocate our money we probably put away 25 percent into retirement currently and well you don't do what we teach education and well correct and so that's why we're trying to we're trying to kind of shift gears but so but you completely made up a falsified fairy tale about in your mind about how long it takes to pay save up for this pier so that you could justify the heloc you make 550 000 if you want to do something that's $70,000, you should be able to figure out a way to do that.

Yes, I don't disagree with that. Like I said, we did this prior to listening to you. No, I mean, that's just, but that's not, okay. So his question was what then? So his question is, you know, he said, Jen, we would miss out on those three years of creating those memories with our kids, and we don't get those years back.

And my answer is bull crap. Okay. No, you wouldn't. You chose to put your $550,000 towards something other than the pier, so the pier was not that important important or if it is so important because we're going to miss out on those three years of memories with our children then you find the 70 grand out of your 550 and you do it in 20 seconds okay if it's really a priority yeah so here's what happened here's what really happened okay what really happened, okay? What really happened was you financed not the peer,

but you financed the continued 25% of your income going into retirement. Because if you just cut that back, if you just cut that back for 20 seconds, you could have bought the peer. Yeah, that's true. But you just did all these mental gymnastics and blamed the children yeah no i mean we loved having it it's been great no i want you i've got a dock that has two master crafts sitting in it i'm walking down there tonight i'm going down there i'm gonna hit the button that boat's gonna drop in the water and and Dave's going to be skiing tonight. So I'm with you on the peer, okay?

I'm not against peers. Dave's not anti-peer, okay? That's not the point. The point is that you guys have the money. You've just allocated it, and don't allocate it in such a way that you end up financing other things accidentally. And so, yeah, you're not missing out on any opportunities with 550 000 income you're choosing things differently everyone has a finite amount of money you guys have an incredible income and you're obviously very bright people i'm picking on you because it's kind of

it's a fun it's a fun conversation because it's so representative of the way human nature works and that's why it's so great but um but yeah you guys you can do whatever you want to do but you might not be able to do something else that you were trying to do at the same time yeah and that's where i think you know it's been my challenge with him of hey we need to make sure we're set with retirement you know you make too much money to not be able to retire properly. Exactly. You know, we've paid off two properties, and we're working on the third.

So if I were in your old shit, here's what we do. We do a lot of the things you preach. Yeah, we move from when we get to baby step four, five, and six, which is retirement, kids, college, and paying off the house, and that's where you are. You're working those three things right now. You move from intensity to intentionality. Okay?

And we say put 15% of your income towards retirement, not 25. And the balance of the money that we can find in our budget is for living well and for getting the home paid off early. In this case, the home and the rental paid off early. And you're going to be able to do all of that with this income. But I'm going to reduce your retirement savings by 10%, which is $55,000 a year, and I'm going to throw that or some of that towards life and that or some of that towards peers and so forth

and towards opportunities. And then the rest of it's going on the mortgages. And let's get those mortgages cleaned up. Because when you guys have zero mortgages, you're going to have so much money. It's unbelievable. You're not even that old. What do you all do for a living? You're awesome.

I work in nonprofit and my husband works in television production. Excellent. Well, you guys, you're doing works in television production. Ah, excellent. Well, you guys, you're doing great. I'm so proud of you. I mean, you're making a lot of money. I appreciate it. And the good news is, I mean, we're having fun with the idea, and I've been picking on you.

But overall, let me tell you, you're being very intentional, very thoughtful, both of you. You're asking good questions. You're moving around. But just challenge yourself that there's not a rationalization for debt because it sets you back on your overall goal. Your overall goal is financial freedom. I'm going to be zero debt and a big pile of money when I get to retirement. I make too much.

I don't want to make this kind of money and end up broke, you said. And I agree with you. That's a beautiful sentiment. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You just have to get to a point where you've got to get rational when you've got these emotional purchases. you said and i agree with you that's a beautiful sentiment yeah i couldn't agree more i think you just have to get to a point where you've got to get rational when you've got these emotional purchases and so you've got to pull yourself back okay can we still enjoy the water in this lake front property for the next three years if that's what it was going to take three years i know but

i'm saying you start playing out their their narrative and you got to poke holes in your own narrative because an emotional narrative is not rational. You can get in the water without a pier. No, yeah, but... You can. You can enjoy the water without the pier. They don't have to forgo the pier. I agree. But that's where you start. Let's say it's another couple and they want to take their kids to

Disneyland. They don't want to miss out on that opportunity. And they're going to spend $20,000 on airline tickets and a week there and ridiculous tickets, okay? And they go, okay, we're going to miss out on the opportunity to enjoy our children at Disney World when they're young. No, you're not. No, you're not. You're missing out on the opportunity for something else because you pay cash for that.

That's exactly right. This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Guys, time is running out to book your cabin on our live like no one else cruise. If your baby steps for or beyond, like we were talking about with the last caller, you're in a position now to enjoy some of the money, intentional versus intense. And if you want to mark that milestone that you've gotten this far you're debt free but the house and you're working in retirement kids college and paying off the house or maybe your baby step seven and beyond we'd love to have

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You get to see world-class content, which is us. All the Ramsey personalities will be doing stuff there. And, of course, we've got Stephen Curtis Chapman. Multiple Dove Awards, multiple Grammy Awards will be with us. We've got Dina Carter, famous country artist, member of Strawberry Wine. She'll be with us. We've got several excellent world-class comedians are going to be with us, and it's going to be a great thing.

And apparently Ken Coleman is conducting his own pickleball clinic. That's right. And so if you want to come. In tournaments. Watch Ken's professional pickleball skills. Yeah, there's a guy in the lobby already. He's gunning for me. He's like, I'm coming.

I want a match. I said, I'm in. I want this. Yeah, so there we go. You can be by the pool, or you can be at the pickleball court, or you can be in the spa. All the Ramsey personalities, including me and my wife, Sharon, will be there the pool, or you can be at the pickleball court, or you can be in the spa. All the Ramsey personalities, including me and my wife Sharon, will be there the entire week. Book your cabin at ramseysolutions.com slash cruise. If you don't get it done pretty quick, you're going to experience what's known as FOMO,

because you will have missed out. There we go. Ben is in Chicago. Hey, Ben, what's up? Hi, Dave. Thank you very much. I am 20 years old. I am a junior in college, and I'm faced with the decision where to go with my career. I am pursuing a degree in law enforcement. I run cross-country and track on a full-ride scholarship, so I have no debt at

all. But I also am the general manager of a small ice cream shop, and I will soon become a partial owner. So I could franchise with my business partner and start other businesses, or I could pursue my real, I guess, career that I'm focusing on in college. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts about what I should do with that. So why did you choose to pursue law enforcement? So I have a real passion for helping people and for saving people. And I think that if I can make a positive impact in my area, then I will be doing a net good. And I also think there's a negative stigma about a lot of law, about a lot of law enforcement. And somebody like me could make a big difference. Okay, great. Now, if you had not been approached for ownership and then the franchisee vision

associated with this ice cream shop, would you be calling us today asking about this? Probably not. It all happened just so fast. It started with becoming a general manager and then just like falling in love with running the store and loving the operations. And I really like doing it on a daily basis. Okay. Well, the reason I framed it that way is because 70% of Americans, according to new data, want to be self-employed, but only 6% are. And one of the reasons for that massive gap is because it's really freaking hard to be a successful solopreneur and then move into hiring a team. And so it's very attractive for a lot of reasons. I do like the fact that you enjoy running the shop, but what you're going to

have to do at this point is you're going to have to get really gut level honest. And I think it might be a great exercise to do a good old fashioned pro and con and look at both fields and play it out and go, what are the pros? What are the cons? And in that con list, I would be looking at the risk because I can tell you, my friend, I know a lot of franchisees who have crashed and burned. I've been privileged through my work here at Ramsey. And before I came here to work very closely with Chick-fil-A and their top leadership and how they choose franchisees and they call them operators and how that works. And it's a very, very difficult path. I'm not trying to discourage you from it. I want to make sure as a junior in

college that you see all of the potential risk, all of the potential backbreaking work, and not just get excited about, ooh, I get to own something, and ooh, I can scale. Because everybody's kind of got a little bit of affinity for that dream of working for themselves. And I think that I can't tell you which one to choose. I think you've got to do the homework and you've got to be really gut level honest about where you're going to be five years, 10 years, and 15 years from now about the service part and the missional part about being a law enforcement officer versus this intriguing opportunity to be self-employed.

Yeah. Right. Dave, what are your thoughts on that? I think he needs to take your career, get clear assessment. I agree. We'll give that to you, the Find the Work You're Wired to Do book, Christian. It'll include the assessment. And just a real quick follow-up on this.

If your purpose statement aligns more with the law enforcement, I'd follow that. If it aligns more with this entrepreneurial opportunity and the part that you enjoy about running this ice cream shop, I would listen to that. And it's a great qualifier to go, this is what I do best. This is what I enjoy doing most. And these are the results that I care deeply about. Be a great tool to check it out. But I would also spend time with other people who aren't in this opportunity, Dave. Like, I don't want him talking to the person who's going, hey, we should franchise or we should do this. I want him talking to somebody who runs an ice cream shop and been doing it for 15, 20 years.

I want him hanging out with some law enforcement officers that really love the beat. Because that's where we remove our emotion about what our perfect vision and ideal vision is for the work. I've got this picture in my head. We see the good, the bad, the ugly. It may or may not be accurate. The profitability and the probability of success for the ice cream store would be much greater if you said we're going to open 20 of them right over time rather than franchise them franchise you take pennies on the dollar and you spend your time herding cats the franchisees they're called and um it's a being a franchisor is a very difficult business it's way different

than running an ice cream store hold whole third set of skills here that are so we got law enforcement we got being a franchisor and we got running an ice cream store three different skill sets yeah and so i'm i'm going to recommend you avoid the franchise or just part of this discussion do i want to be in the ice cream business yeah the retail ice cream business and we can talk about franchising later because I can tell you that, you know, it's just, it's the, the regulation on it and the stuff, it makes it dadgum near impossible. All right.

Sam is in Salt Lake City. Hey, Sam, right quick. What's up? Sam. Hi. Sorry. That's okay. How can we help?

So I am planning to exit a two-year relationship. At one point we were engaged, and we broke off that engagement after we couldn't agree on a prenup. So that's kind of where I'm at. And your question is what, hun? What's that? What's your question? So my question is, how do I financially prepare to leave? Do you have a job? Not currently. I had a job for the first year okay i think you need an income i think so too yeah today like three jobs okay are you living with him okay yeah okay so you need an income so that you can get an apartment

okay uh unless you're gonna move back home for a little bit. Hopefully not. Okay. Is there a toxic situation there, or could you land there for a short term? For, like, immediate, yes, but not for months on end. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you landed there for four weeks while you got a job and got the money together to get an apartment, you could leave this weekend. Yeah.

And I think you need to. I hear a lot of pain in your voice, hon, and fear in your voice. I think you've been controlled and manipulated for a long time. That's what I smell. So I think you need to go home, go get you a job, set you up a new life, and get away from this character. It's time. That's just what I'm smelling.

I might be wrong. Sometimes I am. Just ask my wife. This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Matt is in Syracuse, New York. Hi, Matt.

What's your question? Hey, to keep it short for you, basically I'm calling for some advice. I'm kind of stuck in a job. I've been in this job for four years. I started the job with one kid, and I recently just had another baby girl. Her name is Stacy. And I'm calling just to, I kind of want out of this job, but I'm scared to leave it because, I mean,

obviously I have to support two kids, and I just don't really know what to do. What do you make? Last year I made about $65,000, close to $70,000. So if you had a job, somebody made you a job offer making $150,000, you wouldn't be afraid? No. So all we need is a good job offer. Oh, I'm sorry. What was that?

If someone offered you a job making $150,000 a year, you would have zero fear? Correct. You would not be stuck? No. So is your fear you don't know what to go to next or you don't think you're qualified to do anything else other than what you've been doing what's the fire you're stuck well i guess i mean i really just don't know my options like i know i could go i i started college i dropped out after a year and a half because i guess it just it didn't feel like it was for me. But I know if I went back now to college, I know I could do it,

especially for my kids, but I just don't know. You don't have the time and, dare I say, the money right now. My question is what have you been doing? How would you describe your work? Well, I work for a delivery service, which is a really good job. I mean, I get a pension. I got a 401k. What do you do?

What do I do? I deliver. You're a driver. So you're driving a truck or a van or a car delivering? Yes, I drive the truck and deliver for this company. Okay. I just think you have a confidence problem, and the confidence is based on not a lot of choices that come to the top of your mind.

And that just freezes everybody. So I want you to give yourself a break. What's really going on is you don't know what your options are. And at the end of this call, when we put you on hold, I want Christian to give you my new book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. I want you to take about 18 to 20 minutes and take the Get Clear assessment. And it's going to spit out a lot of good information for you. But it's going to give you a high-level job description. But I just want to ask you, I want you to suspend disbelief.

I want you to suspend all of your fear and doubt. And I want you to tell me, because a guy who doesn't like his job as much as you do, you've had a lot of time to think while you're driving around. I know because I've coached a lot of people who have your similar experience. What would you do tomorrow, Matt, if you didn't have to commit to it for the next 20, 30 years and you knew you couldn't fail? It was just, I'm going to try something different. And don't worry about whether you're qualified or not. It's automatic that you're qualified.

What would you try, knowing what you do well? I guess maybe something in sales. Great. Great. Something like that. I got maybe something in sales. Great. Great. Something like that. I got great news for you. You can make way more than $70,000 in a sales job where you've got a good service or a good product that you can sell.

And so you need to start looking at the marketplace and who's hiring salespeople. Because here's what I also know about sales jobs. They usually come with some training. My issue is, sorry. What's your issue? No, I want to hear sorry what's your issue no i want to hear what's your issue the company um right now i'm considered i'm considered part-time but i work full-time hours because my job is based off of seniority and so i don't get full-time until somebody either gets fired or somebody retires what does that have to do with what we're talking about?

What does that have to do with you finding a better gig? Because once I get full-time, then I'll be making the full-time drivers get about $120,000 to $130,000 a year. I understand. That's what's been holding me on. You don't want to be a full-time driver. You started the call saying you didn't like the job. I know. So what does it matter what they mean all i hear is the thought my father in the back of my head because every time i try to talk to my family about this they're like you got to

stay you got great okay stop stop for a second they don't get a vote it's not your dad's call if you do what your dad wants you to do you're going to resent your dad in your old age what do you want to do i guess i have to figure that out no i think you have an idea wants to be in sale do you want to be in sales is that why you gave us that answer you would love selling something i mean i have i have like side things i do like i sell on ebay and i sell on mercari and stuff like that i mean i would love to do something along those lines full time, but it hasn't really just taken off. Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's not do the side thing. Let's go find an actual product or service in your area that you can get excited about. Yeah. So whether it's a car or lawnmowers or technology systems or medical devices,

the key to winning in sales is to sell something that you actually can get excited about. You believe in it. So you're serving people. So that you see a connection to, I just sold something that I actually think makes people's lives better or businesses' lives better. And I think that's your homework assignment. What are things that you could get excited about selling? Forget if they're hiring or not. You've got to get some real clear clues because once you start going, oh, I could get excited about selling this, this, and this, now we begin to see it out

there in the workforce. And I'm going to tell you something, in this job economy right now, if you can find an organization that's looking for good salespeople and you're willing to show up and go, let me tell you something, I'm really good with people and I will learn everything that you teach me. I'll learn it faster than everybody else. And I'll work my absolute butt off. If you believe what you're saying and you can say that, uh, you're going to get hired and you've got an opportunity, uh, to make really good money. Yeah. I'm better than you're making, and even better than the full-time. So here's the thing you need to do.

Regardless of what your dad's voice in the back of your head, regardless of the quality of the company you work for, because I think we know who it is, and they're a great company. And I know guys that have been driving for them for 20, 25 years, and they've made a lot of money in their lives. It's a quality job. That's right.

But it's not for you. So how old are you? I just turned 24. Okay. So if we said, all right, Matt, the 44-year-old Matt wants to talk to the 24-year-old Matt, and he wants to tell him, yay, you did a good job by staying, or yay, you did a good job by changing

and looking at a sales gig. That answered your question, didn't it? Yeah, definitely. I'd rather have him tell me that you found something else. My grandpa worked for Alcoa Aluminum for 38 years. He was one of my favorite men that has ever lived. I love my grandpa like nobody's business. He took that job after losing a business in the Great Depression,

and he would never leave that job because it was steady and it was predictable. The week that I sold my millionth book, my grandmother and I were talking, and she said, honey, when are you going to get a real job? Yeah. And she's just sweet as she could be. She was just afraid for me that it wasn't going to work out. Yeah. You know?

And so I love my granny granny but she don't get a vote okay and my kids got to eat just fine and i took care of my babies and took care of my wife it worked out okay we got financial peace you know what i'm saying so that that's the thing man and so your family can mean well and they can be they think they're looking out for your best interest, and they love you, and be wrong. That's exactly right. I can't tell you how many people fall prey to their family member's fears. Their family projects their fears onto them, and they believe it because of the influence.

When are you going to get a real job, honey? Still waiting. You still don honey? Yeah. Still waiting. You still don't have one. Still waiting. Still unemployed. Still unemployed. Your job position doesn't exist on any job boards. There's no such thing as what I do.

It's like when I meet somebody out in the wild, and they're like, what do you do? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know where to start. I can't tell you all the stuff I do. It's just, you know. So that's fun, man. You're going to do great, Matt.

Hang on. We're going to give you as our gift the book, Finding the Work You're Wired to Do with the Get Clear Assessment in it as all for free because we want to see the 44-year-old Matt smiling back at the 24-year-old Matt. This is The Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day is Proverbs 19, 23. The fear of the Lord leads to life.

Then one rests content, untouched by trouble. Babe Ruth said, never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game. There we go. David is in Kansas City. Hi, David. How are you? I'm, David. How are you? I'm doing okay. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I forgot to say the thing. Sorry, Dave. It's okay. It's all good.

My contractor has passed the end date of our contract by about five months. We're wondering, or we're going to fire him. We're wanting to know if we should take a dispute to forced arbitration that's detailed out in the contract agreement. Okay, why is he five months over? A long list of constant excuses is the best I can say to be concise. Currently, he's not able to make it out because his truck isn't working. And he hasn't been out in about two and a half weeks. He goes through spaces of coming out for a period of time and then... Okay, so how much is left to finish?

Pretty much the whole project. Oh have you paid him i brought up so the contractual terms were eight thousand dollars for materials and removal of a project of a retaining wall uh five thousand dollars in labor at the uh pending the end of the project a couple weeks ago, he said he was going to have to ask us for money again. I looked at the state of the wall and went, okay, we'll have to talk about it, thinking this is nowhere near the end of completion based on his schedule, and he hasn't been out since. Okay, so you gave him $8,000 up front. Yes. And those materials000 up front? Yes. And where, and those

materials are on site? Yes. Okay, so you got the materials and he's done basically none of the labor? For the most part. I mean, the wall's been removed. A lot of the cutting and the rounding of the wall has been done. I brought out another contractor to assess

the situation when we were considering firing. The new contractor, who kind of fixes other people's mistakes, says that the materials that we have are the wrong type of material for the job. If he were to redo it today, he'd have to completely start over because the base that was laid for the wall is now eroded away and there's grass growing through it. So basically the job has to be redone from start to finish. What is it you're trying to build? What was that?

What is it you're building? We're building a retaining wall for our house. Okay. So this is all just a retaining wall. So the total project cost is what? $13,000. Okay. All right.

And so far you've lost $8,000. Okay. All right. And so far you've lost $8,000 on this. That and the house is shifting because we haven't had a wall for five months and it was through rainy season. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. Well, the difference in you and me is that about five months ago I would have already fired him.

Like the third time he didn't show up. I've been told that by everyone. What? I've been told that by everyone. Yeah. Okay. And so part of this is now on you. Like the third time he didn't show up. I've been told that by everyone. What? I've been told that by everyone. Yeah. Okay. And so part of this is now on you.

No, you don't need to go to arbitration with a broke guy that doesn't show up. You just need on a little tiny $15,000 job, you just need to fire his butt and get somebody in there to fix your wall. Okay. And the fact that you haven't dealt with this sooner costs you some money. Probably a lot of the $8,000. Some of the materials maybe can be returned for a refund, or maybe you can find a different contractor than the one you've been talking to who can actually use the materials you originally bought,

and you won't lose the whole thing. Right. But this is really not rocket science. Okay? They need to show up and start moving things. And the day they don't, I'm going to get a call the next day. They're going to get a call the third day.

They're going to get fired. Okay. I just built a house, a home with a builder, a professional custom home builder. And my agreement with him was we're going to stay on budget, on schedule, and by the plan. And guess what? We talked every week about it.

And guess what? We came in two and a half months before the schedule, and we came in on budget. I was not a butt to him one time, but every time the street was full of cars because people were there crawling over it like an anthill, I sent him a picture from my phone. I said, I love you. I like this. Do more of it. And he knew from day one that if he didn't have people there

that I was going to be asking why because I don't do things that don't happen on schedule. Trains run on time, baby. So you've got to get real proactive in the middle of this. But no amount of arbitration is going to make a guy who won't work and says he has a broken truck go work so you're wasting your time there you need you spent way too much brain calories on this guy he's just gone he's gone he gets no more money and whatever he's done you just that you can't use you lost

because you didn't manage the project well and so yeah you got you man you just gotta get all over this and get somebody in there and get the stinking get some shovels on this and get it fixed now like your like your house is going to fall in if you don't do it matters yeah don't pay the full fee on something up front just never do that i'll pay for materials. That's what he did. He paid for materials, but now the other guy's saying he can't use them. Which I call, I don't know about that.

I'd challenge that one. Yeah. Needs to be done from the- But you got a broke guy, and you can hit a broke guy with a hammer, and he doesn't spit money. Okay? I mean, you hit a brick, and it won't bleed. Okay?

So you just beat the snot out of this guy and you're going to have nothing except snot. That's all you're going to have. So it just don't do it. Just move on with your life and learn your lesson and go, I put, I chose poorly. I didn't push. I wasn't proactive. I didn't hold people accountable.

And so whatever money I lose, I'll take the bait. I'll call it my fault because the instant you discovered this guy was not going to do this, he should have been gone. So that's what, and I happened, that's happened to me when I was young. I did stuff like this, but that's how I got to be so freaking hardcore. Because I'm just like, I got no tolerance for this. Trains run on time, baby. Show up.

Show up. It's like come to work on time, work while you're at work and stuff. This is not hard. It's like come to work on time. Work while you're at work and stuff. This is not hard. It's anxiety producing. No, you should have some anxiety then. You should come to work and work while you're at work. Don't check your freaking Facebook account. This is accountability.

This is what we're doing. You know, it's not anxiety producing. But this guy, this guy's been doing this for a long time and getting away with it. And you just need to let him go. You chose poorly. There we go is that ab or ob i don't know ab deal ab deal i guess i guess i'll go with that and they're shaking their head in the booth ab deal in oklahoma city how are you ab deal i'm doing good dave how y'all doing good did i mess it up is it ab or ob oh you got it i feel okay ab deal cool how can i help yeah so i just had a question so me and my wife we started baby steps

and we're on step two now and uh our biggest debt we got is a solar and we're that guy put us on a 25-year plan, and the total amount of debt is $34,000. But you don't have to pay it off for 25 years. You can pay it off tomorrow. Right, right. What's the interest rate? It's about 4%. Oh, that's not bad.

Okay. My question was, should I take out a loan? No. To pay it all off? No, you have a loan. Yeah, exactly. But it's a 25-year, and then like... No, no, it's not a 25 yeah exactly but it's a 25 year and then like no no it's not a 25 year it's a 34 000 if you hand them 34 000 a day you know what they'll do smile they're done so then it became a one minute loan not a 25 year loan there's no prepayment penalty on this puppy

okay there's no advantage in refinancing it because you're gonna end up with a higher than four percent rate right so just put it in your debt snowball how much other debt have you got we got about that's the biggest one the rest is like 15 000 total so 50 grand gets you out of debt what's your household income together last year we made about $111,000. Okay. No eating out, no vacations, beans and rice, rice and beans, working together with the spouse, extra side jobs, and making $111,000, you pay off $50,000 in 18 months to two years.

Total focus. And everything's gone. That's how you're going to do this. Hang on. I'll send you a copy of the book, The Total Money Makeover. It's how we've shown 10 million people to do just what I told you how to do. So hang on. We'll try to help you with that.

Ken, good show today. Thank you, sir. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus. Thank you. Bye.