The Ramsey Show - App - Don’t Be So Desperate That You Make a Stupid Decision (Hour 1)

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author, and author of the brand new book that just came out this week, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. He's my co-host today. You jump in, we'll talk about your life and your money. It's a free call, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Emily starts this hour in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Hi, Emily. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up in your world? So I just graduated college and got my bachelor's. I am currently not in any debt, but I'm about to go into about $250,000 worth and I won't be able to pay it off or start paying it off right away either. So I'm very,

very terrified over it. I was just hoping for some advice on how I can limit the debt hopefully and how I can pay it off as quickly as possible what pray tell are you doing I got accepted into medical school okay which one um Michigan State mm-hmm theird program yep what kind of scores did you have on all that mcat stuff where how where were you ranked um i was above average of course it wasn't the highest score but all right it wasn't bad but it was pretty darn good and and and my guess is is that Michigan State is a pretty nice little brand name program, and you should be proud of that. I'm going to jump in and say the way to lessen this debt is to think about going to a medical school that doesn't cost as much,

because I can tell you who doesn't care about where you went to med school, and that's your patient. I have never once asked my doctors where they went to school and what their GPA was. I probably should, but I'm just telling you what's reality. Make sense? Yes. So have you looked into less brand name schools and see what they actually cost? And then have you looked at, based on your above average performance on the MCAT, could you get a huge, huge chunk of that paid for? Have you looked at, based on your above-average performance on the MCAT, could you get a huge, huge chunk of that paid for?

Have you looked into that? Yes. This is actually, from my understanding, the cheapest medical school in Michigan, I believe. And on top of that, I've been offered a $20,000 renewable scholarship. So that'll take it down about from the $250,000 to about $200,000. Yeah, you won't really feel that, trust me. So why are we staying in Michigan? This is where family is, and then the program that I applied to medical school

only allowed me to choose from schools in Michigan. Okay. But it is possible, and you're aware that there are other medical schools that cost a whole lot less and could probably give you a whole lot more scholarship. You're aware of that? Yes. All right. That's reality. You do not have to go to Michigan State Medical School.

Right. That's reality. You do not have to go to Michigan State Medical School. Right. Well, you asked. I know. There's really no other answer, honestly, because you said, how do I limit this? Because you are going to be facing, and walk this out for people who are thinking about this, because you've actually done the homework, I think. How many years are we talking about before you start to make anything resembling decent money after med school? After four years of medical school, I'll have anywhere from three to six years of residency, depending on what I go

into. And you're making what in residency? 50k. Very, very little. Exactly. So that's your reality. You're choosing a name brand school to be close to family, and you're exchanging in that decision years and years and years of barely keeping your nose above water. I'm not trying to be depressing, but this is the decision. I mean, yeah. So bottom line is I don't really care where the school is or where your family is. If I'm you, I'm going to go someplace that I can severely change these numbers and not just be, oh, I'm so happy I got accepted to med school.

I will pay you anything because you like me. And that's what usually happens not accusing you that emily but i'm just saying because med school is so hard to get in that when you do get accepted it is such affirmation that you go well those people like me so i should really give them all my life yeah my whole life for the next decade yeah um i yeah i i just think you it's very wise to rethink this where you go to law school where you go to med school changes the numbers dramatically that's right dramatically and there are good doctors and good lawyers that come out of virtually any school that teaches law or medicine there are very few hack situations like almost

none uh and so we used to have a thing here in nashville that was called ymca um nashville law and you it was night school on armory drive to go be a lawyer no way and you could go be a lawyer not doing night school and uh it was pretty much blue collar methodology right you just work all day and then you go down there to law school at night and it took it took two years longer but you could pay for it as you went that's right and um then i actually had a guy that graduated from that law school um that represented me one time and he absolutely mopped the floor with the other guy i mean he destroyed the other side and so um but i guess something about that whole blue collar

process set him up to be a to be a fabulous litigator so um but yeah that's that's the thing so you emily you know you just need to to think through and not follow the path of affirmation and follow the path of least resistance because it ends up being the path of greatest resistance if you're not careful. That's what we're trying to point out to you. That's right. And so we want you to live your dream, hon. We don't want you to live a nightmare. Yeah. And we talked to too many people on the other side of this coin.

Oh, man. I mean, I think Dave of the dentist that we feature so prominently in our award-winning documentary, you can get it on Amazon or wherever, Borrowed Future. But I just remember, I can feel it right now. The very first time I watched it, our entire staff watched that dentist talk about the debt that he had. He had a million dollars. A million dollars. And it was soul- soul crushing for me as a

consumer as a surgeon yeah and and so dave what's happened he got out he did get out of it and it is by the way but what we're actually trying to do here emily is keep you from getting in the middle of that and dave there's a false choice in society right now and i'm not trying to demonize med schools or higher ed but there's a false choice. And folks, you just heard Emily walk through it. The false choice is follow the emotion, as Dave said, of affirmation. And let's be honest, it's impressive to be a doctor. Doctors are still one of the most respected positions in society. We get it. But we are told to follow the emotion of the accomplishment of the affirmation and not exercise logic. And I just walked her

through, listen, I'm as dumb as a doorpost compared to med students. That's just basic logic. And we don't tell kids there are med schools that would die to have Emily join them this fall. She doesn't even look because it's not even considered an option. It's not her fault. It's what society has done here. So anyway, food for thought. Yeah. Something to think about. That's what we're here for, to mess with you. It's our job.

This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Isaac's in Sacramento, California. Hi, Isaac. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, guys. It's an honor to talk to you.

You too. How can I help? Well, I feel like I'm going to be paying quite a bit of stupid talks here with this question. So my wife and I, we took out a home equity sharing agreement with one of these companies, and we had good intentions. We wanted to pay off some higher interest debt, and that all got paid off. But now I'm staring at this agreement, and now that it's been a little while, I'm looking at it, and it's just becoming more and more daunting. So basically, they gave us an upfront cash investment of about $62,000, and any time between now and about 30 years from now, we can choose to square up with them, but they get the $62,000 plus 40% of the appreciation from, of my house, from the time

we signed, there was an appraisal to, uh, 40% of the equity between the time we signed and the time that we settled. And we have that time. So I'm just wondering. So if you did that now, how much would that be today? Well, we'd have to get an appraisal, but approximately, yeah, maybe probably around $100,000. Okay. So this makes a payday lender look like a sweet deal it really does um you sold your soul

to the devil yeah and so hopefully people hear this call and just never do any home equity sharing agreement of any kind yeah how long ago did you do this about eight months so that makes it even worse so you make a hundred $100,000 return on a $60,000 investment in eight months, and we don't call that highway robbery in California? Hmm. Interesting. Hmm. Okay.

Yes, sir. I am. I don't have an answer for you. I mean, obviously, the sooner you take care of this, the better. The less it's going to cost you. I might call them and beg for mercy. Like, if I get you a check now for the 60, what is the minimum you would take on top of the 60? I mean, double your money, that'd be a deal, right?

For them and for you. I mean, if it only costs you 100% interest and not 200% interest, that's a pretty good deal. So just by talking to them compared to what you've got right so um i i as far as i know what you've done is perfectly legal um in terms of you know is there some kind of a basis to go at them no i think you just signed up for a really ugly trip and are getting to take it um so the only thing i can think of is you know first off is try to talk them down and then go refinance and take care of it immediately. And then second off, if you can't do that, um, you know, you've got to end the cost as

quickly as possible because every day you screw around with this in California, in Sacramento, your house is going up in value. And every time it goes up in value, $1,000, they get $400. I'm just curious. What did you do with the $60,000? He paid off the debts. Oh, I see. He paid off his debts.

Oh, he paid off debts. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so in reality, we just made our situation worse. So you were just so stressed out and freaked out that you just didn't look at this is that what happened i mean you had to close you had to be you had to willingly close your eyes to how bad this was for some reason what what do you think that was i think it was just seeing the debt and then seeing you know seeing how long it would take

and then you know kind of because i was working hard to pay off the debt which then seeing, you know, seeing how long it would take. And then, you know, kind of get, cause I was working hard to pay off the debt, which is perfectly fine. Like what you had to run these numbers. Right. And I just figured I'd let it, I'd let it grow until I was ready to, I was ready to sell my house. And then just, you know, the, the values weren't going to go up. And it was a lot, there was a lot of little things and I don't, I'm not justifying. No, I'm not either.

For folks listening, I'm trying to get inside the headspace of someone who's so desperate that they don't look at a deal that's this bad and go forward. Because I always talk about on here, man, that the dumbest things I've ever done in my life was when I was desperate. Right after I get desperate i get stupid and um so that's kind of you know and i've done i can i can look back and tell you about 10 different things times where i get freaked out i get put in a corner i get i can't move and so i do something desperate and i get stupid and it's just not a good plan so anyway uh aside from that for your for you tactically um it's very unpleasant but you're in a very unpleasant scenario so best case is you talk them down and you go get some money right now and pay them out talk them down to 100 return on their money in eight months that's a

sweet deal for them and compared to the terms you've currently got it's a sweet deal for you right yes i mean that if you call me up and i was in this deal and offered that i'd be thinking about it if i was the other side of this and so that's you know have them think about it um then if you can't do that then you either refinance and buy them out today and end this because you've got that option or sell the house and get out of it and that's your most painful of the three staying in the property and letting this thing continue to tick letting this bomb continue to tick in your closet nope not doing that you're going to wake up 10 years

from now and your whole life is going to be screwed so meanwhile you could have been owning a house that you owned and so forth so yeah you need to clean this up in the next six months by talking them out of it, refinancing or selling one of those three. And if you can come up with another idea, I'd be willing to listen. I just don't know what it is. That's the first one that comes to me. So shared appreciation mortgages, SAMs came out in the 80s. They showed up in the 80s and to to to try to get a lower interest rate

because rates were so high in the 80s you know we were in 12 14 in the early 80s 18 for a few minutes real estate market and in order to get a decent rate and come down like to a 10 or a 9 instead of getting the your your money as the mortgage maker on the interest rate only we could you could also participate in the mortgage shared appreciation mortgages and actually fha came out with a program that underwrote sam's now they weren't as um onerous as this guy's boy that's a mess he got into i was gonna say do you think this meets the criteria of predatory lending from an from a legality standpoint no from a moral standpoint a hundred percent right yeah yeah a hundred percent yeah when you're making usurious amounts of return um you know but again they didn't the company did not mislead isaac that's

correct that's he walked into this straight up with his eyes open and just said sign me up for stupid you know and i've done that so i'm not picking on isaac and he's beating himself up enough without me beating him up that's not the point but the um yeah it's definitely predatory. I mean, but so is payday lender at 800%. That's true. On a $200 cash advance. That's true. To poor people. Yeah.

But it's legal in most states. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's absolute scum. It's a horrible product. Yeah. And how do you sleep at night doing that to somebody? You know, no. I mean, they're basically stealing equity out of his

home no no you steal it they they well okay he gave it to him i'm saying conceptually though the deal works out for them yeah yeah oh it's it's unbelievable i mean they're they're they they said we'll give you 60 000 bucks and you can't get it anywhere else and uh because you're broke and in debt and your credit's bad and everything else and here you are desperate and you know you just have to sign over you know three of your children and we're going to put them in the safe and feed them through the door until you come back and get i mean that's what we're doing here it's hands-on gretel right so oh man some of you people need to look up hands-on gretel you don't know who that is it'll be good for you to read a good so true oh my goodness. The chicken bone

and the whole thing. Look it up, people. Look it up. This is the Ramsey Show. Well, your graduate just spent more than 4,300 hours in class. We're guessing no one taught them how to handle money. could be wrong but unless they were in a school where they were teaching the ramsey curriculum which a lot of high schools are teaching it thank you but um you know probably they got nothing so you got graduations everywhere right now from college from high school you got weddings everywhere right now and uh man we got a couple of really good

ideas for you the total money makeover is celebrating its 20th year we're going to be announcing that formally soon and we're just under 10 million of these have been sold and of course it's on sale for you graduates at ramsey solutions.com be sure and check it out george camel's book is probably better for a graduate because it's more relatable because George has got the millennial snark down to a freaking science. And so you will love this. I loved it because I love the millennial snark. So Breaking Free from Broke, The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress. Check it out.

It was number one bestseller. It's on sale right now for graduates. And Ken Coleman's book. Oh, maybe we need to go into work that we're wired to do uh do the get clear assessment which almost a hundred thousand people have taken at the uh ramsey solutions.com website and used it to figure out what they need to do who they are where they're going and ken the book took off it did a great kickoff this week yeah when you buy this book,

it is the guide on how to read the assessment that comes with it. You've got to code for it. Yeah, it's essentially about a 40-minute read, and it's me coaching you through your actual results. So once you know what you're good at, what you enjoy doing, and results that you care about, how do you now ideate and select an actual professional path to where you can become like the net worth millionaires that we studied that love their work and they're crushing it? So this is a coaching manual that really comes with the assessment. So it's a fun tool.

Self-awareness is a superpower. That's what I've learned about successful people. Yep. Don't you wish you got some of this kind of stuff at graduation instead of whatever it was that you got? I don't even remember now. I don't either. I think I got a tie from my grandfather.

Someone gave me a very important item. I'll tell you what it was. A gold cross pin. Remember cross pins? Let me tell you. Of course I do. Those were big. My dad used to write with those.

Before the Mont Blanc craze. That's correct. If you were cool, you had a cross pin and a cross pencil. You put it in your highly starched pocket. Right there in your highly starched pocket. This lady knows what we're talking about. But you got to be old to know that. That's true.

Not that lady, but the other people got to be old to know that. Yeah, you aren't old, ma'am. We are. Not that. That's like you go back and look at the early Dave before the Mont Blanc was in that same starched pocket to prove that I knew something. The two cross pins were in there. That was my greatest wish.

Did you have a gold and a silver? No, I just had the gold. Just the gold. That's all I had was the gold. Big deal. My dad got me one. I thought that I had arrived. I'm pretty much an adult now.

Yeah. Pretty much. I got a cross pin. I'm ready to write stuff now. So, ramsaysolutions.com slash store. No pins will be sold. That's correct. Only books. Check it out. Kim pins will be sold. That's correct.

Only books. Check it out. Kim is with us. Kim is in Chicago. Hey, Kim. How are you? Hi, you guys. Doing well.

Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? Well, my husband and I, thankfully, thanks to you guys, paid $180,000 in debt earlier this year. So we're super excited. Wow. Way to go. Yeah.

Yeah. So it was $110,000 in student loans and $70,000 in car loans. Man, you knocked it. Way to go, kiddo. I bet you feel like free. We feel really good. Thank you. Yes. Yes.

Thanks to you guys. I mean, we followed the baby steps. We got really intentional and had three babies along the way, but we did it. Very good. Good for you. So how can we help today? Well, now I'm in baby steps four, five, and six. I have a mortgage of 390 and I'm saving for kids college and also our retirement.

So I'm doing 15% on my 401k. And my question is, my husband's a police officer and he is on a, he's going to receive a pension, which is 75% of his income at retirement. And he does not have a 401k there. So I'm trying to figure out how do I fund his 15% for retirement. Okay. It's our 15%. So we add up our total household income and we need to get 15% in retirement somewhere. So we do not have a 401k at his place to work with. We have one at your place to work with. And you have two Roth IRAs you could do as well.

So another $6,000 each there. And so if you maxed out your 401k and you maxed out $12,000 worth of two Roth IRAs, would that equal 15% of your household income? Well, my household is 210. Okay. So you need about $30,000 going in. You're going to get close. You're not quite going to be there.

But you're probably just going to max your 401K and max two Roths. And that's about as close as you can get, unless you've got some self-employed income anywhere, do you? I do not no okay all right yeah i think you're probably limited to that he does not even have a 403b at the police department yeah i just asked them that to look into it a little bit more he um he said he was not aware of anything like that but i'm gonna check in a little bit more because i i've heard of the um of that one but most of them have deferred most of them have a deferred comp 457 and or a 403b in addition to pension and both of those would work i would rather use your 401k and max it out and then do two roths and if that

doesn't get there then i would use a 403b or a 457, one of the two. They'd be my last choice, though, to get to the whole 15%. But the point is we're dealing with 210 times 0.15, so we're $31,000. We're trying to get $31,000 into something. That's the point. And that's so between those two. And it doesn't matter whose name it's in because you have marital rights to your uh 401k of your spouse um whether you know in other words if there's a divorce that you know that's

an asset that's laying there that gets divided up so if it's all in your name it doesn't matter uh like the big 401k load up i'm talking about here so but the point is just take your household income 15 going into something for retirement and the best thing out there folks for those of you listening is a match you want to do that first the second best thing is roth the best thing of all is roth with a match okay but match roth traditional so match beats roth beats traditional it's rock paper scissors except there's only one way to win okay match beats roth beats traditional and if you just go down that path then you can do and so the 403b and 457 would fall in the heading of traditional because they're tax deferred

like a traditional ira or traditional 401k same same mess there same pot ball of pile of fish hooks uh dane danon danon is with us in morgantown west virginia is it danon is that correct yes it's danon sir sure how can i help absolutely uh so i have about seventy four thousand dollars worth of debt sixty of which is my house uh at the end of the year i'll have have my car paid off, which is the other 14, and then I'm getting a $20,000 bonus from the military. Not for sure if I should use that on buying a new house or just throw all of it at my current house. What's the bonus for?

The military. It's my reenlistment bonus. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. Thanks for serving. What branch do you serve in the navy sir okay cool good for you uh all right how long you been serving

uh about six years okay so you maybe you may have landed there and gonna stay there huh in in that location are they gonna move you uh so no i'm reserves i live out of morgantown west virginia oh okay i do like travel like four times a year with the military gotcha it's reserves okay all right that part i didn't catch okay that makes more sense then because you're uh and 100 then i'm throwing that at the house so you're in baby steps for what we call four five and six you have an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses? I have roughly like two right now. I'm currently throwing into it.

Well, when you get the car paid off, let's beef up that emergency fund. Okay? And so a fully funded emergency fund and debt-free but the house leaves you in baby steps four, five, and six. And now you're starting to attack that way, and you just throw the money at the house at that point let's just get this house paid off you only owe 60 grand way to go man you're killing it good job this is the ramsey show ken coleman ramsey personality is my co-host today thank you for joining us america if you like the show, you could help us.

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Hey, spread the word. We appreciate it very much. We know that we were the fourth show in history on Apple Podcasts to have a billion downloads. That was a year and a half ago. Joe Rogan was one of the first and was one of the NPRs and then us. And now we're at a billion and a half downloads where you get about a billion minutes watched on YouTube every 35 minutes. It's crazy. I mean, it's nuts.

I need to call my mom real quick. These billions and billions of you, I mean, the number of hours and minutes consumed by you guys out there is crazy. Thank you so much. So we know you're there, and we know you're spreading the word because the numbers are growing. So thank you, and continue to share the show and spread the word and subscribe and follow and all that kind of stuff. It does help us because it changes the algorithms and pushes the show forward to other people to see it. Lauren is in New York City. Hi, Lauren.

How are you? Hi. Good afternoon, Dave. Afternoon. How can I help? So I am at a point where I am drowning in credit card debt. I have about $70,000 in credit card debt currently, and I can't really stop the bleeding. It's all due to attorney fees. You paid $75,000 in attorney's fees? Also moving, I was in a situation where I was married and my husband was an alcoholic and substance abuser and I had to get out of that situation. So what did you spend to move? I'm in Westchester, so it was about $9,000 to move between broker fees.

So you spent $60,000 on lawyer fees? Yes. For what? I've had to fight tooth and nail for my child. It's been a very challenging court case. At this point, the court has ruled he cannot have access to my nine-year-old daughter. But it's been contempt orders and violation, not on my part, on his. And also, there's an attorney guardian ad litem as well. So I'm paying both of the attorneys. It's just been a very harrowing experience that we are thankfully going to come to the end of soon by the end of the year.

Okay. So the bleeding is stopping then. It will towards the end of the year. I'm so sorry. What do you make? What's your income? I make $90,000 a year, and I'm in a very expensive area that I'm not legally allowed to leave. I am currently working at a nonprofit organization, and I can make more money. I have a doctorate in physical therapy, but I am tied to my job for the next two and a half years because I have extensive student loans totaling in the amount of $260,000.

And I'm in public service loan forgiveness. And I only pay for 14 months. So after that, my loans will be forgiven. Plus, they're very flexible. I have a daughter with special needs. So I'm really kind of stuck at that amount right now, making that $90,000. So the way it stands right now, I'm basically barely making my bills at this point. And I do not receive any type of child support or anything like that.

And I'm just making the bare minimum on the credit card payments. And so I'm trying to figure out when this is all said and done, and I can, you know, go and I can't touch anything right now. Is there any financial settlement that you're going to get from the divorce? No, no, there's absolutely nothing. I'll be lucky if I get child support at this point. I'm not going to bank on anything at this point. If you could, I understand the limitations based on the loan forgiveness, but could you practice physical therapy today, just theoretically on paper, with your current qualifications? that requires a lot of my time, and if I had to pay for child care,

plus finding a provider that would be able to provide that child care, I'm kind of in a very difficult situation. So no family support or friends in Westchester at all that could help out? No, no. My family is from Florida. I don't have any family here. Okay. So here's what's going to happen. Something's going to explode

because you have painted a picture that says, I'm stuck in the corner and everything around me is wet paint and I can't move. And yet you're going to get your feet, you're going to get paint on your feet. Something's going to give. This is not sustainable. That's why you called us. So I don't know what it is that's going to give uh but something's going to happen here

and it's not going to be pretty uh you're going to have another set of problems and anxiety-ridden mess following this anxiety-ridden mess of a divorce because you painted yourself into this corner of i don't have any choices i don't have any choices you better make some because what you're telling me isn't sustainable and you know it's not sustainable so you need to get your lawyer that's so dadgum expensive to go before the court and get you out of westchester county and you need to forget the stupid loan forgiveness because you're probably not going to get it and you need to go make about two hundred thousand dollars a year and get your freaking life back or something i don't know what it is but something's got to change

because everything that we bring up, everything we talk to you and ask you about is a trap. I'm trapped. I'm trapped. I'm trapped. I'm trapped. That was the answer to every one of your questions. I don't have any choices.

I don't have any choices. And yet the math is not working. So math will not give you a pass. Math does not believe in grace. Math does not believe in grace. Math does not believe in mercy. It's going to come for you. And it already is, and you're feeling it, and that's why you're calling. So I'm not trying to scare you, but your process by all the stress you've been through

and all the damage you've been through it has made you believe that you are trapped and don't have choices and i'm challenging that you do have choices and you better make some you better change something here because you're not going to get help from him i'm betting that the student loan forgiveness doesn't work because such a low percentage of those actually do go through and you may have sacrificed a great income for a lousy income um and i don't think you're trapped there i think if you go before the judge and go your honor i don't make enough money to live in westchester i can't live here help me out here where can i go what can you tell me what to do and you go before the judge with that plead and

then you go okay now how am i going to work with a special needs child and give them proper care and also be able to feed them and house them and and so uh you can't the math that you've given me doesn't work doesn't continue it's something's going to come up short and it's going to choose you if you don't choose it that's what i'm saying so you're not stuck but um but you do have a very difficult situation and um part of it is um you're my heart's breaking for you honey because my i hear your language it's as if you have been abused in this relationship so if you were in a domestic violence situation one of the things the abuser convinces the person of is that they don't have any choices in that they're stuck you can't leave you can't afford to live without me

so you have to stay and let me be a let and be my punching bag and so that's one of the lies they tell and then you start to believe that lie yourself now you broke free of this guy but your language of i'm stuck i'm stuck i'm stuck i'm stuck is breaking my heart because it still sounds like he still owns you and i want you free from him and free from this trap and free from all this i wish i had a magic wand i could just say that there's an instant thing here but the one thing i will tell you is you got to make some different choices. This is not, it's not working for you, hon. You know, she can find people that can help take care of the child, but she's the only one that can feed the child. And so for that reason, I would drive this home. I would be getting into physical therapy and making the most money possible. That gives you more options.

I'm stuck in a nonprofit making no money in the most expensive county in freaking New York area, except possibly Manhattan. This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you.