The Ramsey Show - App - Don't Fall for the SBA Loan "Forgiveness" (Hour 1)

Episode Date: April 7, 2020

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is still dumb, cash is still king, and the paid-off home mortgage has still taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. Joining me this day on the show, answering your questions, Chris Hogan, Ramsey personality, two times best-selling, number one best-selling author, and host of the Chris Hogan podcast, which is vastly popular. He's here along with me to answer your questions. The phone number is 888-825-5225.

So Chris, that opener, cash is king, debt is dumb, the paid off home mortgages, almost 30 years ago we wrote that and have been doing it. Never more true today. We should change and have a special, like some real dramatic music and go, the coronavirus special edition of the dave ramsey show but we're just not that way around here so no you know you know i don't have a pandemic no and we don't panic and you know the reality is is you know i'm i'm awfully curious and you're at some point today i want you to tell me the story of how you came up with that saying. Because as you hear it right now, as people are really waking up, and I think we are seeing an awakening right now in the midst of this,

where people are starting to go, you know something? That old Dave, he might have been on to something. There's some really funny stuff people making fun of me out there right now. It's really, really funny. Making fun of you? Yeah, because it's like he was right all along, and he's he's gloating or he's uh saying i told you so i'm not but it's just it's still funny right it's you know unless you just don't have a sense of humor which i do i mean even if it's making fun of me it's funny i don't care who you are

but the uh uh there's tons of it floating around because it is this this is uh i don't know when a brand has been as validated by an event as the ramsey brand being validated by all this and it's not that we're telling you i told you so because crap man i mean chris has done stupid and i've done even more stupid than he's done i've got a phd in dumb we're never here to shame you or condemn you uh we will bust your chops if you're headed towards stupid and bounded and determined to keep going that way. You won't like us if you want to keep going that way and want us to endorse your stupid because we love you and we want you to win. That's right.

And so, but, and you know that you just keep driving off into the land of stupid. Winning is not happening over there. But it is a wake-up call for some folks, and it's a validation for the others that have been doing things like staying out of debt, building an emergency fund, investing only for the long haul, and riding the wave, riding the roller coaster. And, you know, it's stuff we've talked about so much that it's like, and inside this building is so normalized that we don't even think about it anymore. Yeah. No. But if you are not thinking about it, you are in a mess right now. You really are.

It's a part of our DNA. You know, we not only hear it and teach it, but we live it. And so the thing that I love to see, Dave, is taking people on my show, the Chris Hogan show, people telling me, you know, all this craziness going on, I'm okay. I'm breathing easy. And, you know, that's so contrast to what I hear from outside, the people that are yet to come to us. But I think we're going to have an opportunity to reach people, Dave, on a way that is heart connected. And I've heard you tell that, you know know people can want change but when you go through some stuff when you finally get scraped up enough and you go you know what this

ain't working yep that dr phil moment how's it working for you yeah it's not no it's not how's how's that attitude how's that yolo you know ramsey know, Ramsey, you're just no fun. You're such a boomer meme. You know, Ramsey, you're no fun. YOLO, baby. And right now, it doesn't look like all that. Right now, it looks like the three little pigs with the, if you know the story, with the little pig in the brick house instead of the one that was in the straw and the sticks. And the big bad wolf's out there huffing and puffing. He does not have coronavirus. He's blowing stuff down.

That's exactly right. And you know, Dave, what I'm not hearing about right now is any kind of daggone airline miles. I'm not hearing about credit card points. Yeah. No, you're not. You know why? Because all of those programs, the problem is, is here in the next about 15 to 16 days, they're going to start calling.

You know what else is kind of quiet? I mean, it's not completely shut up, but it's pretty quiet. Ramsey, you don't know what you're talking about. There is good debt. And right now, it doesn't feel like it, does it? No, it sure doesn't. And we've been telling people all along, the only good debt is one that's not theirs, paid off. That's right.

And the borrower is slave to the lender and by the way that's true of these stupid sba loans that they're putting out there that they're promising forgiveness on do you really want the dmv of small business to be your master i mean do you really want that how dumb you know you're just asking for crap in your life. Dave Ramsey, those are grants. They're not grants. They're loans with forgiveness provisions that have more loopholes than an IRS tax code. It's unbelievable.

Well, I tell people grants don't have interest rates. Okay? They just don't. Grants don't have payment terms. That's exactly right. And so people, don't fall for that. Please don't grants don't have payment terms that's exactly right and so people don't fall for that please don't fall for that uh the last thing you need to do is add more pressure to your already packed plate how would you like for the government to be telling your church how

to operate oh does that does that not give you just a little bit of a chill it should it really should i mean think about who's in congress it looks like the island of misfit toys up there Does that not give you just a little bit of a chill? It should. It really should. I mean, think about who's in Congress. It looks like the Island of Misfit Toys up there. I mean, and you really, you want those guys dictating how your church operates after you gave them a, took a loan from them. Wait a minute. Churches aren't eligible for these loans, are they?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. That I did not know. Yeah. And you talk about a dadgum cesspool of danger right there man that's a problem that's a really bad idea boys and girls now there is a provision that is not alone and is not an sba and that is you can put off paying your payroll taxes

you the the portion that the employer pays of the payroll taxes does not have to be paid this year and instead can be repaid over the next two years. We will be doing that here. Right. Because we're conserving cash because the more cash we conserve, the higher the probability no one loses their job at Ramsey during this downturn. And so we're doing everything we can to preserve cash, and it's working so far. I mean, we've got 1,000 employees. Can you imagine not paying the payroll taxes this year, what that will do to cash?

It's pretty substantial. And so it really does, and that's not a loan. That's not a loan. It's just simply a delay in the payment that's legal. And so we'll do that here, and I want you guys that have small businesses to take advantage of that. And, but, you know, a lot of this stuff that's popping up is stuff you don't need. And, you know, the payday lenders have dadgum ads running about how they're your friend. They were never your friend.

I mean, they're no more your friend than a stupid timeshare. That's right. I can't think of anything worse than a dadgum timeshare. Jerry House tweeted a while ago. He goes, I think I'm going to take all my money out of the market and put dadgum timeshare. Jerry House tweeted a while ago. He goes, I think I'm going to take all my money out of the market and put it in timeshares. That's like the dumbest possible series of things you could do. People need to be smart, too, because the payday lenders now have turned into revolving lending instead of installment loans.

Yeah. People, it's still dangerous and sneaky. It's still 800% interest. That's right. That's a dumb idea.. It's still 800% interest. That's right. That's a dumb idea. Absolutely. So here's the thing. The things that were smart before this are smart during it and will be smart after it.

Smart didn't change. Common sense didn't change. But desperation starts to make stuff look like it's okay and it's not okay. We're going to walk through it with you today. Chris Hogan, right here on the Dave Ramsey Show. Folks, I love telling you about well-made, well-thought-out products. Today, I'm talking about Grip6 belts. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of traditional belts.

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Grip 6 is determined to help build and modernize american manufacturing to learn more and get this month's dave ramsey special visit grip6.com that's grip6.com summer of 1992 almost 30 years ago i printed up the self-published took them to a printer first book that i had ever done called financial Peace. It was pitiful. The look on it was horrible. The grammar was atrocious. The cover was bad. And I went with my proud new ugly baby. You know, nobody's baby is ugly then, right?

So my baby was ugly, but I didn't know it because it was my baby. And I took it, and I was speaking at this place with an overhead projector and when i finished i ran to the back of the book table because it was just me i was doing everything and uh i'll never forget a lady picked up the book and she said i love that talk on common sense and she said why isn't this taught in the schools? And since that day, for 30 years, I have heard that everywhere I go. And the good news is, many years ago, probably 15 or 20 years ago, we started a high school curriculum that's now called Foundations in Personal Finance, and it's now taught in 48% of the high schools in America. We've had literally over 5 million high school students graduate from that curriculum. And so since that lady suggested that, that turns out a pretty good suggestion.

Yeah, it was. But we all kind of resonate with that because, you know, why wasn't I taught how to budget in school? Why wasn't I taught, you know, stay away from credit cards in school? Why wasn't I taught how to budget in school? Why wasn't I taught, you know, stay away from credit cards in school? Why wasn't I taught to save money in school? Why wasn't I taught what a mutual fund is and how to invest in school? This is Financial Literacy Month in the middle of April. If you didn't know, it is Financial Literacy Month.

It is not the coronavirus month. It is Financial Literacy Month. And we didn't change it either. It's a nationally recognized month to talk about the importance of understanding how money works, and again, Foundations in Personal Finance is taught in high schools. We have a middle school curriculum, a college curriculum that has been taught all over America and is continuing to be taught all over America, and what we're doing during Financial Literacy Month, all of us right now are admiring and clapping for

and virtual high-fiving all of our health care workers. We appreciate them, but I'll tell you who else we appreciate, and that's teachers. We are celebrating teachers in the middle of all this craziness. Schools are closed. And I got gotta tell you parents that are homeschooling that weren't set up to homeschool they have a whole new appreciation oh for teachers yes they most certainly do they have a deep appreciation for all the teachers do you had a room full of eight-year-olds it's like trying to nail jello to a tree baby i mean it's

just like yeah teachers have a whole new place in some of these parents' hearts. I think they will not be complaining so much. They will be much more supportive and appreciative. And, you know, when you look back on your life, for me, coaches and teachers and pastors, these are the people that have transformed my life, speaking into it. I know that's true of you. Absolutely it is, Dave. I'm so grateful for them that cared enough to push me uh even when i didn't want to be pushed yeah yeah and i i mean i there's a blog out there we put out there on the stuff and you need to read it on my third grade teacher

it's a wonderful true story um how she taught me to read and uh now I've had multiple New York Times bestselling. Do you remember her name? Oh, absolutely. I actually talked to her. She came to the opening of the building, and I talked to her last summer. After I wrote the blog, I reconnected. The first time it came out last fall, I reconnected with her. No way.

And so about a year ago, fall. And then so she came to the grand opening of the building that we did back in the summer, and we connected up and actually had lunch before that. And so reconnected with her. She's a sweet lady, and she's a miracle worker. I mean, she taught me to read. I didn't know how to read when I went in the third grade. And now I've written seven New York Times bestselling books, so multiple bestsellers.

So, you know, these teachers, they need to be celebrated. It's absolutely incredible. It is. And so, you know, what we're doing is we are trying to be a blessing to the teachers, and we want to say thank you with our Teacher Appreciation Giveaway. Now, the giveaway is sponsored by the folks at Jackson Charitable Foundation who have come along beside us on financial literacy in general, but certainly in Financial Literacy Month,

and they sponsored not only the incredible prizes for the teachers, a $5,000 cash giveaway and several $1,000 gift cards, but they also sponsor the curriculum in multiple schools across America. Danielle Robinson is the Executive Director of the Jackson Charitable Foundation. Danielle, we just wanted to have you on and say thank you for your partnership. Thank you for sharing our heart on what it means to teach young people this information. Well, good afternoon, Dave and Chris. Thanks for having me back on the show.

It is so much fun to talk with you about the success we're seeing students have learning how money really works. It is a lot of fun. And, you know, you've been teamed up. Well, you guys have been teamed up with us for several years now. And so you and I have gotten to talk many times. And certainly our teams, your team and our team have interacted hours on end on how to best get this information out. Why did Jackson Charitable decide financial literacy for high schools, financial literacy for middle schools was so important?

You know, our mission is to increase financial education across the country. We saw a need and a way to really help. We know that money behaviors are rooted in childhood experiences, so helping students from the youngest ages understand how money really works is critical. Yeah, it really is a big deal because I think we can all look back and go, well, I was raised in a house that did and fill in the blank, right? They were either really tight with money or they were big spenders or they were ridiculously good with money or ridiculously not good with money.

And that writes a signature on your brain, doesn't it? It sure does. Whatever we learn as kids, good or bad, that's what we think is normal. And so our foundation believes we give young people the best opportunity to succeed when we show them all the choices we each have with money. And that's why Jackson Charitable Foundation has invested in such a big way with you all and also in our signature program for elementary school students, Teaching Money Smart Kids. Yeah, Teaching Money Smart Kids is a great elementary school program, without a doubt,

and well, you guys are, you know, we were friends before we knew each other, because we shared so much in common, and our values are so aligned, and you as the executive director, you're all CEO over at Jackson National. The whole process has been just incredible. And when we look back 15, 20 years from now, we're going to see a huge number of students' lives who were changed because of your all's involvement with this. And we just want to say thank you very much, and thank you for helping us with the Teacher Appreciation Giveaway. Teachers are so important.

They are. And I hear from schools across the country who are using this program consistently say two things. Teachers say first that their students love this class and second that they see positive changes in the ways their students are behaving with money. I think it's amazing. It's pretty cool. I mean, I remember classes that I took and I couldn't figure out how they applied in real life. Well, Dave, I've yet to use the Pythagorean theorem. Okay?

Yeah, yeah. Danielle, I've not used it at all. But I can tell you, in my home ec class in seventh grade, our teacher taught us how to balance a checkbook and also how to sew on a button. And how to make homemade biscuits. Well, they didn't teach me that, Dave. That's a size-ism thing. Danielle, don't listen to Dave. But just, I'm grateful.

And I'm going to tell you, as I'm talking to young people that come to visit or that come to our events, to hear them talk about foundations. They have confidence in this money stuff, Danielle. And you guys have done an amazing job making it available to them. I mean, it's true, Danielle. And you guys have done an amazing job making it available to them. I mean, it's true, Chris. Today, only 17 states across the country require a course that includes some personal finance to graduate high school. And yet, we've had requests to sponsor foundations and personal finance in all 50 states. Teachers request this program. Yeah, they request it, not because they're required to teach it, but because they know how vital it is for their students in the long run. Well, thank you again, Danielle. We appreciate you guys at Jackson Charitable Foundation coming

alongside us for not only getting the curriculum into the high schools in many cases, but also this teacher appreciation giveaway, a grand prize of $5,000. Teachers, go to DaveRamsey.com slash teacher. Giveaway ends April 30th. Of course, there's no purchase necessary. We just want to say salute to you teachers. We love you. The good ones are the best. We love you.

Thank you. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. In today's world, technology and innovation are crucial for any company's success. But the primary focus should always be on you and meeting your needs. That's why you get the best of both with Zander Insurance and their term life plans. Zander uses time-saving technology like over-the-phone applications, voice or electronic signature, text message updates, electronic policy delivery, and even plans with no medical exams to speed up the process of getting you the protection your family needs. One of the reasons I've endorsed Zander for 20 years is they never skimp on service. They are committed to serving you, whether you want to do business online or need that personal

touch. You pick your path. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282. Zander will guide you through the whole thing, keep it simple, and find you the best rates. That's Zander.com or 800-356-4282. Joining me this hour and all day long on the show today, Chris Hogan, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author. Marissa is with us in Oregon. Hi, Marissa. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. How can Chris and I help? Hi, Dave and Chris. Thanks so much for taking my call. Sure. My question for you is, I'm wondering if now is the right time for us to be starting our baby step four for saving for retirement. My husband and I just finished baby step three and we have six months of expenses saved. But we are also expecting our first baby next month, which be working on baby step four but just a little bit

nervous with all of the financial uncertainty just going on in the world right now yeah what does uh what's your husband do for a living um he does product marketing for a software company okay how unstable is his job um his work is is pretty stable so So, I mean, you've got a 95% chance that he's going to come out of this unscathed. Yeah, I would say so. Okay. What about you? Are you working, and will you go back to work after the baby? I am currently working. I work as an accounting manager for a nonprofit, and things are fine for me right now. Obviously, I'm planning to take maternity leave starting next month,

and I do plan to go back to work more part-time once my maternity leave is over in August. Okay. Chris, two thoughts occur to me. Number one is the baby's coming in a month, so no big deal to wait a month, but there's actually no deal to wait a month. But there's actually no reason to wait a month. I agree. Because the income's stable.

Yep. You've got your three to six months. So either one's okay with me. Yeah, I agree with you, Dave. I mean, looking at this, you've got an opportunity to jumpstart and get started on your future or wait a month. I'm with you. I see no reason to wait. You've got stability and you've got income, which means to me you've got opportunity yeah the markets are

down i mean the dow's off about 20 plus or minus a little bit more than 20 right now from where it was on the high and the money that you put in if you go and start now is going to be the money that grows the most you know as it as it comes back so i kind of think of it as the stock market's on sale right now and you're missing the sale but it's okay if you do it's not the end of the world it's not going to mean you don't retire a millionaire it's not going to mean you've done something stupid it's not going to mean whatever so if you tap the brakes and skip one month until baby comes and then you feel more comfortable with the, you know, Corona being more in our rearview mirror than it is now. And, you know, so you've, you know, all the outside worries are starting to go away. Baby's home.

That worries behind us. And excitement is there. And it's all positive. And, you know, you get all that and then you start your investments. There's no harm in that. Oh, by the way, if you start them and you want to stop them in a couple months you could do that too you know but uh you know it's not the end of the world either way there's you know it's kind of the difference of if you want to get real hardcore mathematics i would start because there's no reason not to if i want

to give myself a little grace and uh a little emotional space i've got a baby on the way and i'll just feel better if i just throw that money and build up my emergency fund to seven months instead of six and then maybe start after the baby comes home that's okay too if you told me you were going to wait eight months i wouldn't know and dave if she said that they were up to their eyebrows in debt oh we wouldn't do it at all. And didn't have an emergency fund. That's different. That is totally different.

You wouldn't be a baby step forward. That's right. But you would be piling up money to be able to protect yourself. So, Marissa, great job to you and your husband getting out of debt and building up that emergency fund. That would be a great feeling right now. Yes, it is. Baby coming in the middle of all this. There's so much weight out there.

So much craziness out there, and then they can have this perfect moment in their lives. And enjoy that baby. Yeah, as it should be. That's exactly right. As it should be. Jeff is with us. Jeff's in Washington.

Hi, Jeff. How are you? Hi, I'm good. Hi, David. Chris, my mother passed away last month. I'm sorry. Thank you. And we're doing the best to help my dad.

So he's about to receive $150,000 in life insurance. And his only income is Social Security and a small pension. And he has $16,000 in credit card debt and a $90,000 mortgage. And two questions. Should he pay off all that debt? So that's $106,000, leaving him with $44,000 mortgage. And two questions. Should he pay off all that debt, so that's $106,000, leaving him with $44,000? And what would you say to someone counseling him to pay off the credit cards but keep the mortgage to have more of a cushion sitting there? Yeah, I hesitate for him to be, you know, down to $44,000, even though I do want this house paid off.

So I'm okay if you don't pay off the mortgage, but I'm also okay if you do. Let me tell you, either way, here's what's got to happen. He has been, they have been, of course, your mom's been ill, so we'll cut him some slack. But going forward, he cannot cut himself any slack on this. He has got to live on his income and he hasn't been we know that because there's no savings and there's credit card debt right he's really started to turn things around though in the last two years and so i've tried to help a lot how much has he paid off in debt in the last two years?

He has paid off. This is somewhat of a guess, but I think he's made some headway in the realm of $5,000 to $7,000 that he's paid off on a very small income. Okay. All right. Good. Well, what I would do as a first step is pay off the credit cards, cut them up, and make sure that budget's super tight, meaning there's no wiggle room. He cannot go back in debt again. He's not got a second chance at this.

And then I would set that money in an investment with a SmartVestor Pro, and let's watch it for a couple of years. At any point you want to pay the mortgage off, you can reach in there and do it. But you can't undo that because you don't have the income to qualify for a new mortgage. So I would start with that as step one. But then he has to pay the house payment and all his other expenses out of his income. And if he's done what you're talking about, he probably can do that. And this should give him a little more wiggle room because he gets rid of the stupid credit card burden and really the guilt that they represent for him from when he misbehaved. I don't know, Chris, what are you seeing?

Yeah. And I'll tell you, Jeff, the most important thing is he's got to not only shut down these credit cards, but he's got to understand this money cannot be wasted, right? I mean, as you start to look, this came from your mom's passing. So it's very important to be intentional with this money. And if he won't listen to you, you need to get him with a financial coach. Without a doubt, he needs to talk to a counselor and process his emotions. But the last thing he needs to do is go on a shopping spree to try to medicate for the loss of his spouse. And so he needs some people around him. And, Jeff, you're always going to be his son no matter how old you are.

And so don't hesitate to reach out to get him the guidance he needs. It sounds like he, you know, Jeff's convinced he's been turning it around. And I'm going with that. That's a good thing. But yeah, sit down with one of our coaches. You can get those online at DaveRamsey.com to do the investing. Sit down with one of the SmartVestor pros. They don't work for us. Neither of them work for us. We just recommend both and you can get some coaching. But I think as a step one, I'd pay off the credit cards and then you may come back in a couple of years and want that mortgage paid off. Ultimately, I want it paid off. But but I really hate to be down to forty four thousand dollars to your name. That makes me swallow hard like gulp. Yeah. Really, really tough. Hey, thanks for the call man and thanks for being

there for your dad and walking with him through this and i'm sorry about the loss of your mom open phones at 888-825-5225 chris a hundred dollars a month invested from age 25 to age 65 is 1 million 176 thousand dollars which means which means $200,000 is $2,050,000 is $500,000. And so if you're out there and you're 32 years old, you're 25 years old, you're listening to this, take a note from Jeff's dad. You do not want to be 70 years old and having the only money to your entire name being a life insurance policy from the passing of your wife.

And so you have one, and it's not even a big policy. You have one shot to try to stretch those dollars as far as you can stretch them when 50 bucks a month would have been a half a million for most of you. A hundred would have been a million for most of you. In your 401ks, your Roth IRAs, plus or minus a match, plus or minus market performance. That's right. But, dude, there's, you know, the everyday millionaire book that Chris wrote tells you that you can do this stuff, and you need to. Right now.

Right now. Yeah. Very good. Good point. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. Business leaders make your life easier with FreshBooks. Whether you're starting a business or you've been at it a long time, FreshBooks is one of the smartest decisions you'll make this year. FreshBooks is an accounting software designed for people like you

that lets you do the things like automate your invoicing and your online payments so you get more time to work on your business. Try FreshBooks for 30 days free at freshbooks.com slash Dave Ramsey. Thank you for joining us, America. Chris Hogan, Ramsey Personality, joins me this hour to answer your questions. Tim's in Minnesota. Tim, your question for Chris and I. Yeah, hi. So I am just out of college, and I'm going to be debt-free from student loans on Friday.

I'll be making my last payment. On Good Friday. Yep, on Good Friday. Look at you, man. Way to go. Yep. What's your degree in? I actually didn't finish school. I left school about halfway through, and I decided to go to work in public works.

So I got my first full-time job and just started tackling my student loans that I had and just been making $1,000 payments each paycheck, and I will be having them paid off on Friday. Love it. Well, congratulations. How can we help today? So just curious what my next step is going to be after I've paid off all of my student loan debt. You have no other debt?

No other debt. Okay. Well, Tim, you are sitting in a beautiful spot, young man. Proud of you for being focused and attacking the debt. As soon as you get that done, you know, that $1,000 that you told me you've been paying toward that debt, I want you to shift that and now start to build up a fully funded emergency fund. I want you to have a cushion in life like you've never had before. And so you're building that up and you continue to do that.

And then once you have that done, then you're going to shift into what I call the legacy steps. Like this is where you're going to now start to invest 15% of your household income and start to get super intentional about your future. Are you living at home? I am. Yep. I live with my parents still. Okay. When do you plan to move out? I'd love to move out in the next six months to a year. Perfect. Okay. Try to do a mock-up budget of what rent and utilities and food might look like when you move out. And your next step is to save three to six months of expenses after you move out. And so if your expenses after you move out are $2,500, three months would be $7,500,

six months would be $15,000. Okay? And so you need to get that, and then you save up some extra money beyond that to cover your moving expenses, including deposits for utilities and deposit on the apartment or the rental house and that kind of stuff. And, yeah, you're probably out of there before Christmas and set up and operating. And then you'll move into the legacy steps like Chris was talking about. We call it baby step four after the emergency fund is in place, and that's when you start and you're investing in good Roth IRAs, in good mutual funds in the Roth IRAs is where I would start. If you've got a 401k at work with a match, you would do that first and do everything in Roth and in good mutual funds. Now, Dave, that's a good call out about doing that mock budget because because young people they don't have an understanding

of what the utilities will cost uh the security deposit to rent you know so that's yes that's absolutely true yeah it does i mean you can do it it's not to be perfect but i and you know probably 2500 is not far off that's right you know i don't know what he's making and what he'll be spending on rent and try to keep your rent at about a fourth of your take-home pay, Tim, and that'll keep you from getting too much rent. Sometimes when people rent the very first thing they're ever going to rent, they rent something too nice. Yes.

I did that when I came out of college. Sharon and I rented a three-bedroom, and it was just the two of us. We just needed the Taj Mahal. I don't know. I mean, it really wasn't that nice a place, and it was just the two of us we just needed the taj mahal i don't know i mean we were just i mean and you know it really wasn't that nice a place but it was it was double what i should have been paying right because i should have just rented a one-bedroom apartment start off our life you know but we just thought oh no we can do this and we can afford it and we actually could

afford it but that didn't mean you need to throw it away on rent for bedrooms that there's no people to stay in you know and it's just like that, I mean, there's no point in it. It was just silly. Matthew in Missouri. Hey, Matthew, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hello, Mr. Ramsey. I've been listening to you for about four months now, and you've changed my life so far. I appreciate it.

You changed your life. I'm proud of you. How can we help? Well, I'm in significant debt. I haven't even been able to start the baby steps, still trying to get the four walls going. And I recently, less than two months ago, left an employer making $6,000 more a year, and I'm wondering if I should go back to that employer just to try to get out of debt a little faster.

Why did you leave? The driving distance, it was anywhere from 30 minutes to 45 minutes each direction. So the $500 a month minus the extra gas is not a pure $6,000 raise by the time you pick up the extra gas bill and wear and tear on the car, right? That's correct. And then there's also a 1% tax to work in that city, in the city of Kansas City. They add a 1% additional tax. What do you do for a living?

I'm an associate architect, so I'm not yet licensed. When will you be licensed? It'll be probably at least a year from now. It takes about six exams, a couple months each to study, $250 per exam. What are you making now? $50,000 now, and I was making $56,000. And I'm also doing DoorDash in the evenings, weekends, making roughly $20,000 there.

How detailed is your written budget? It's pretty darn detailed. I've been down to the penny. I was guessing an architect would have it detailed. I was just thinking, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hey, I think you stay where you are.

I think you left for a lot of reasons that I wouldn't go back for, and I think it's just going to be you're not going to make huge leaps forward until you get that architectural license. And so, you know, if you make some progress in the next 12 but it goes into overdrive after that that still gives me a light at the end of the tunnel if i'm you now if you told me this is what you're going to do for the next 20 years we got to stop and think about that okay but you've got a plan to substantially increase your income i mean your income will go up dramatically, you know, within a short period of time of passing all those exams, getting the license, won't it?

That's correct. There are going to be a lot of bumps in the road. I have some court expenses coming up for child custody reasons. And that's part of my debt snowball as well as credit cards and car loan. And then I'm paying child support on top of that. So just to get out of this hole, it's probably going to be a year of court fees and whatnot before I can even start working on the debt.

Yeah, Chris, I think you still, I don't see the, if you told me you could make $20,000 more, I'd think about it. But by the time you pay the extra gas, I don't think you're making enough progress here. I think you just got a pretty rocky year ahead of you for multiple reasons you're describing without a lot of progress and i don't think six thousand dollars changes that does it no i mean i did the math and with the wear and tear mileage i may be profiting three thousand dollars yeah and you know I think you can do DoorDash or other stuff and pick up all kinds of side stuff and go from there. Yeah. And Matthew, I would tell you this, buddy, you're going through a lot. I think it's really important that you are. I appreciate you reaching out to talk about it. The most dangerous thing you could do is isolate right now. And I need

you to get out and get some other guys around you, get plugged into a church, and talk about this stuff. Walking through those kinds of life changes are tough. But once you realize you're never alone with the right people around you, it can give you the courage to push through. You're walking through a little bit of a desert right now in this upcoming year. But as you said, you want to keep your head up and understand what it is you're moving toward. You getting this licensing, as Dave was saying, is going to open up some doors. But I need you to really tap in and understand what you're feeling right now. It might be good to journal and to talk about it as you look at this and you understand the threat that this debt is bringing around you right now.

It ain't your friend. All it does is take. It doesn't care about your health. It doesn't care about your family. Debt just takes. And so you want to see family debt just takes and so you want to see it for what it is so you never ever forget it as you move forward yeah and add to that all the emotions of a uh a child custody battle it's just uh and the financial drain of that isn't

you got a tough year ahead of you dude and um chris is right get some guys around you to walk with you hold your hand hold your arms up and you through it, and push you through, and call you out, because it's a lonely game you're playing right there. And I'm with him on that. I think I would get some fellowship going. Hey, thank you for the call, sir. We'll call back any time if we can help. That puts this hour of the Dave Ramsey Show in the books. In the middle of these uncertain times, Ramsey Solutions wants to give you some hope.

For the very first time ever, we're giving you Financial Peace University free for 14 days. Go to DaveRamsey.com slash hope so you can watch from home.