The Ramsey Show - App - Don’t Sweep Your Debt Under the Rug! (Hour 2)

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Pods Moving and Storage Studios, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Walsh, our Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. The phone number here is 888-825-5225. Tim is in Boston. Hey, Tim, what's up?

Hi, Dave. I'm 37 with a wife and three young boys. Two years ago, I received a terminal cancer diagnosis. Oh, my. Thankfully, I had a term life insurance policy in place. I'm wondering, would it ever make sense to convert my term policy to a whole life policy? Trying to understand all the angles.

Wow. I'm sorry you're going through that how you doing thank you i'm alive and um i uh and throwing everything i can at it and so far i've been you know um in uncharted territory is what my doctors say. Prognosis can be pretty grim. But I'm trying some experimental treatments overseas and with some collaboration here in Boston. I have some great hospitals. I'm getting great care. But I do have part of my question revolves around paying for some out-of-pocket expenses.

So my term policy being converted to whole life is related to tapping into some of that sooner, Lord willing, if it continues to work. But there's no category of remission for my type of cancer. Okay. All right, what is the rest of your money situation? Yeah, we're doing well. I am on disability. And thankfully, thanks in large part to education I received through

your teaching. I also had, um, long-term disability with a, uh, you know, private plan in addition to the term life that covered some of the gap. Um, and I now sort of my job is domestic and enabling my wife to work. So she now is a full-time athletic director. So, you know, we probably take in. How much, so you've got the income covered. How much of a nest egg is there? a, um, you know, around 300 something, 300 K in my, um, 403 B. And how much, how much debt do you have? We have no consumer debt. How much do you owe on your mortgage? How much is the mortgage? We probably have around 500,000. What's your wife making?

She makes around $70,000. Okay, and what's the term policy? How much? $2 million death benefit. Okay. Yep. And how much longer is left on the term? Yeah, so I have Northwestern Mutual's 80, so I have plenty of runway with, you know, if I continue to renew it, I'll have until, you know, I pass or I'm 80.

Oh, okay. So it's renewable until you're 80 years old. But does it go up every year, or how often does it go up? It goes up, but it really isn't. I mean, since I'm so young, it's not going to go up anytime soon. All right. So here's the thing. Converting term life insurance to whole life life insurance does not make you money.

It costs you money. Yeah. Okay. It's not a good savings program. And it's going to go up considerably um in general now i mean i don't know within the northwestern mutual their term insurance is high to start with but you're stuck with it you got it now if you so but in general term is about five percent as expensive five dollars per hundred thousand as as whole life and whole life builds up a savings but you don't need an extra expense right now to build up a

savings inside of an insurance policy so converting this to whole life doesn't do anything for you and are you referring to the premium yeah yeah so um, uh, it gets maybe even to the more of the heart of my question. If I had a waiver on that premium, which would be the disability waiver. Yeah. Yeah. Would that change the dynamic? I don't think you can convert to a whole life and the way of your apply because the whole life is, is 20 times more expensive yeah so i think that's one of the things my financial advisor brought to my attention is we put a retainer on through my disability that would cover about a 35 000 annual premium yeah well if they're paying it because of this but i i gotta tell you i'm pretty suspect of that because your financial advisor is not a financial advisor.

Your financial advisor is a Northwest Mutual life insurance salesman. Sure. That's who they are. And I mean, you've got the term policy. I certainly don't want to do anything that screws that up. And the premium is being paid today. And so by the disability rider, correct? Correct, yeah.

Because you've been declared disabled. Tim, I'm not going to mess with it. Okay. I'm not. Because I have had so many bad experiences with these companies over the years that they don't follow through on things, and everything's not what they say it is, and it changes in the middle of the dadgum thing.

And right now what I've got is you're describing to me that you're going to be in heaven and your wife is going to have $2 million plus $300,000 and she's got a $500,000 mortgage. Your wife and kids are, your wife and boys are in financially and going to be in really good shape. That's what you're describing to me right now. And I just don't want to mess with that. No, I don't. I'm trying to understand all the angles. And I, if I didn't see, I mean, we reviewed the contract the other day, and it very clearly states that Northwestern Mutual will pay the annual premium for the conversion every year. For how long?

I mean, for... Until you're 85? Yeah, I mean... I tell you, you need to have an attorney look at this before you do it. I just don't trust them. I'm sorry. I've just dealt with that industry for so long. And I don't think your personal agent would necessarily mislead you.

I just don't trust the industry. You follow me? I'm not suggesting that your guy is a bad guy necessarily. But that is some crappy insurance with a crappy company. And right now I got $2 million for your wife and boys, and I sure don't want to screw that up in order to get, you know, to take your premium way up and then pay it. If they're going to pay the premium and it puts some cash value in your hands

that you can use to help fight this cancer, and you can get an attorney to convince you that that's true, I can't argue against that. I'm just very cynical working with these people. So until you've had an attorney review this contract and you get some outside counsel outside of a life insurance agent, I wouldn't do it. But if you do that and you come

to the same conclusion, I won't argue with you. This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Walsh, all Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-525. Mitch is in Washington, D.C. I'm Mitch. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Thanks for having me. How y'all doing today? Better than we deserve. What's up? So my wife and I recently went under contract on a house, and we're excited, but it's two people that have pretty much adhered to a debt-free lifestyle. We're nervous about taking out a mortgage on the property. We know real estate's a great investment, but we're nervous to take out a chunk of our savings for

the cash to a close and even more nervous about the monthly payment on the mortgage. Should I press ahead and take on that debt or hit pause and rethink things? Well, it depends on what's giving you pause about this. Is it because the payment is a big portion of your income every month? I mean, what percentage of your income is it tapping into every month? So my wife and I do, we do about $215,000 a year between the two of us and the house. The mortgage is going to get the house sold for $775,000. We're putting 5% down. So it's going to be a big check.

More than 25% of your take-home pay? Probably. That might be why you're feeling this. Because at the end of the day, right, when you have your mortgage, you want to feel good about it, right? You want to know, okay, I can pay the mortgage. I also have plenty of spread here to do everything else that I need to do. Because let's just break down the numbers here. Okay, most people, they're wanting to put 10%, some sort of giving, right? At some point, you're going to want to put 15% aside for your investing and then you've got this 25% mortgage payment. You're already at 50%. So if that mortgage payment creeps in, you know, 30, 40%, you're going to start feeling that pinch very quickly. And my guess is that's probably where you're at.

How much money you got in savings? Between the two of us, about $90,000. Okay. And you're putting most of that down? We're putting about $56,000 of it down and keeping a little bit left over just for a rainy day. Okay. And you have no other debt? No, zero debt, except for student student loans but i haven't paid on those since the pandemic and i'm a federal employee so they're going to be forgiven soon anyway no they're not there's not a program to forgive student loans that's actually working what do you mean who

told you your loan i thought if you were if you were a federal employee after a number of years of federal service they actually forgave your balance of your loan i think it's 10 or 15 years of federal service yeah it's 10 years and so so far 97 percent of the people that have made application for that have not gotten their forgiveness we literally ran the numbers me and some folks who work here in research department ran the numbers on that yesterday. It's 1.97%. Of the people that apply actually get forgiveness. I hate to say it, but that's where it's at.

How much is your student loan debt? It's probably $80,000 to $100,000 between the two of us. Okay. All right. Well, you have signed a contract, and so you're in this deal unless you are not approved for the mortgage. So you will keep your word. I never tell people to break their word. But if we were to coach you before you got into all of this, we would tell you to become debt-free, student loans and everything, before you purchased into all of this, we would tell you to become debt-free student loans and everything before you

purchased a home. A government plan to forgive your student loans is statistically irrational. It doesn't occur. And so we want you to clear, I would want you to as a method of best method of building the best possible life with the most wealth is to clear all debt, including student loans, as soon as possible. Have an emergency fund plus a down payment. So you would not be in a position to buy a home today if you had come to us before you were under contract.

Now that you're under contract, make sure that the home is a 15-year mortgage that is no more than 25% of your take-home pay. And take-home pay being not after 401k but just after taxes after taxes and um and are you putting money into your 401ks right now yes yes okay you would in your situation if you go ahead and close on the house or if you don't stop that temporarily until you get these student loans cleared because the best thing you can do for your future is to clear these student loans as soon as possible and then let's keep the home payment on a 15-year fixed where it's no more than a fourth of your take-home pay after taxes not after health insurance not after a car payment coming out

for the credit union not after 401K and all that, but just after taxes, what's your take-home pay, and is your payment going to be more than that? And so, yeah, that's how we would tell you to do it, using what we call the baby steps, which has helped more people get out of debt and become wealthy than any other system so far right now in America. Certainly more than 1.6% of the people that attempted.

Well, here's the thing. When he took out this, when he made an offer on this house, we don't know if he planned on getting a 15-year or a 30-year. I sure hope he planned on a 15-year. He's going to be up a creek without a paddle. Well, I mean, it probably doesn't state that in the contract. It just says to be approved for financing. Yeah, that's true.

And if you're not approved for financing because you say, I will only do a 15-year, then you would be out of the deal. Oh, well, there you go. And then you would write a check and pay off your student loans that day. A little poll. And you would rent for a little while longer until you get yourself in a position to actually purchase. See, this is the problem, folks.

It gets us just so angry around here. We can't breathe because we love you guys and we want you to win. And when you believe lies about your money that cost you decades of your life, it disturbs

us because we want you to win. And here's one of these lies just very casually as if as if it was just a stated known fact oh well they'll get forgiven i don't have to worry about those student loans they're forgiven and and then you come to find out they're not and it's a lot of them too 1.6 percent of people get to the 10-year mark under that program are actually getting forgiveness. And then there's the new 30-year program, which is going to end up being worse, only you will be 20 years further in, too. Meantime, you've sat on this egg and sat on this egg and sat on this egg,

and when it hatches, it's a monster. A monster. In the egg. It wasn't a goose. it's a monster. A monster. In the egg. It wasn't a goose. It was a monster. No goose laying any golden eggs in there. It was a rotten egg. A little goonie comes out.

It's so true. And you know, that's... It just infuriates me that the government has continued to spread this crap and that people, these hope stealers on the internet has continued to spread this crap and that people on these hope stealers on the internet continue to spread this crap to and people believe it and when you believe it when you believe a lie and you act on a lie it always causes you to stub your toe have a bloody nose and a black eye it always causes that oh bless his heart i'm so sorry for him yeah that's that's tough i was talking to a today. This is a guy that doesn't like debt. Right. I was talking to a reporter today and I said to him,

I said, everybody's complaining about the interest rates in the housing market. Oh, it's so hard to buy a house today, da, da, da, da, da. But these are the same people, Dave, who are fine with and doing what this guy's doing. I only have $80,000 to $100,000 debt. I'm fine with keeping that there. I'm like, if you don't see how that's affecting your ability to purchase a home and have peace about it, this is all related. Even if the forgiveness is hanging out, the only way the forgiveness, if it did happen, is if you continue to make the payments.

So that's what's putting a squeeze on the dadgum budget. It's a $100,000 student loan. That's why you're feeling pinch on the dadgum budget. It's $100,000 student loan. Yeah. That's why you're feeling pinched. You're exactly right. But even if you're one of these people who says, oh, I'm going to get the lowest payment possible, you're going to tell me that you're going to move into a brand new $775,000 house and that $100,000 of student loans isn't going to strangle you with its presence every night? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a goonie. There's a little monster in that egg, a little goonie. It's like when we've all been there, right? You know somebody's coming over to the house and your house is a mess. Oh, my parents-in-law, my mother-in-law's coming over. So you slide everything in the closet real quick. How come it's always the in-laws with you?

Look, I don't know, Dave. I maybe shouldn't make a metaphor where in-laws are the same as student loans. But you shove it all into the closet and you think it's clean, but you know what's really in that closet. And you know it's got to get dealt with. And there's a lumpy rug. It's because somebody swept something under the rug. That's right. The old metaphor is true.

And thus, there's a lump. Some of you got lumpy rugs. This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Walsh, our Ramsey personality, is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage. John is with us. Hey, John, how are you? Doing great, Dave. Thanks for having me. Honored to have you, sir. Where do you live? Amarillo, Texas. Well, welcome to Nashville. All the way here to do a debt-free scream. How much did you pay off? $83,000. How long did this take? Just 17 months. Wow. And your range of income during that time? 120 to 150 good for you

what do you do for a living i am a traveling occupational therapist oh very good good for you what kind of debt was the 83 000 all student loans you killed it that's what i'm talking about it's kind of odd we just took a call from a guy with 80 000 in student loans it was going to be magically forgiven okay john's be magically forgiven. Okay. John's were magically forgiven when he paid them. Turns out you can honestly just pay them yourself. Look at that. Way to go.

Who knew? Way to go, man. I'm proud of you. Congratulations. The taxpayers of America, thank you. Yes. Very good. Very good.

Good stuff. All right. So you just got out of school? Yep. That's right. So you just got out of school? Yep, that's right. And so you got your occupational therapy degree, passed the boards, and boom, you're off to and you catch the travel, which is the highest paid possibility. That's right. That's right.

And they also cover some of your food and lodging. They cover everything. So you just throw even more money at this. So you just went on the road, said, I'm going to be a gypsy. I'm going to knock this out. Yep. You got it. Proud of you, man. Well done. Well done. Was it worth that extra struggle? Absolutely. Absolutely. When I first started or when I first finished the school, I did interview for a regular job, you know, like a regular working in a hospital. And it was pretty much half the income.

Wow. And I looked at the numbers and I said, that's not going to work for me. So I went the traveling route. Wow. Good for you. How much longer will you do travel? Will you come off the road now that you got this done?

Well, my plan is actually to continue for two to three more years so I can complete three and 3B and then pay cash for a house. Hey, that's awesome. Look at you, man. That's fun. I kind of want to get in your head a little bit

because you go to school, you're like, okay, I know I've got this debt coming up. What made you look at this and say, I've got to take responsibility for this. I've got to pay it off. Why did you not jump on the forgiveness bandwagon, jump on all this, I don't really have to pay it bandwagon? Why are you different?

I need to understand that. Well, I think it goes back to, I can't call myself necessarily a financial peace baby, but I grew up in a house, my parents actually led Crown Financial Ministries when I was growing up. Oh, yeah, Larry Burkett, sure. And so I was familiar with debt is dumb, cash is king. But

when I was going through my bachelor's and then I decided to pursue a master's, I didn't have a plan on how to pay for it. I was focused on getting into school. And then the time came and I was like, oh, what is there to do? You've got Pell grants, scholarships, financial aid. When you fill out the FAFSA or the financial aid they use terms like assistance and um fail to mention this is a loan so i fill out everything and then at the end it's like oh here's your agreement here's your interest rate oh can you just sign and then so i was like okay well i guess i gotta sign you know that's the only way because i didn't have a plan for it. You didn't have the information about that.

But by the time you got out, you had a plan. It's called travel. That's right. That's right. And then there was that thing. Now, are you going to any cool places when you travel or just places that nobody wants to go to? Well, I wanted to go to the places that paid the most.

There you go. And that's the places nobody wants to go to okay yeah good for you so nothing fancy then no not really nothing nothing cool like i got to go to this and i got to do that no we're working we're working okay good for you well done how's it feel feels great feels amazing um actually i had so i paid off off all my last payment the day after my 28th birthday. And then two weeks later, my vehicle caught fire. Of course it did. Yeah. To celebrate. Yeah. But as I was standing on the side of the road and I actually work in home healthcare, so I drive to see my clients. And so I'm standing on the side of the road waiting for the tow truck and it's hot out

and i i'm okay it's fine like i'll be okay peace nothing to worry about insurance i'm sure they covered the vehicle right and on top of that we've got some money and we don't have any debt so we'll just get into the car all right good for you man well done amazing i i'm just so what do you tell the person i mean you said you paid it off a couple of days after your 28th birthday what do you tell the person who's listening who's 38 and they've got 83 000 in student loans what do you say to them don't wait you know george camel always says what's the best day to plant a tree? And it's 25 years ago. And then the next best day is today.

So just start now. Like, you know, you can wait around for Washington and the politicians will change, you know, but you can just start yourself. The lies don't change much, but the politicians change. Yeah. So don't wait. Just, you know, you're in charge of your future. Go for it. Come on. I love it. John, this is great, man. I'm so happy for you. You're a hero, man. I'm so proud of you. All right. Now, what do you tell people the key

to getting out of debt is? You're someone who actually did it. You paid off $83,000 in 17 months. What's the key? Well, you need the budget, obviously, and I use every dollar and it's wonderful. It makes things so easy. But the budget also gives you peace because you have your groceries, your gas, everything's covered. So if you know you've got the money for it, you don't have to stress. You can just focus on paying off the debt. But more importantly, one of the things I learned, because I did do a little side hustling, delivered packages for Amazon, and these side hustles, they help you stay in the game.

If you work your nine to five and then you go home on the weekends, we're constantly bombarded with advertisements and consumerism and everybody's trying to get your money. Well, if you go to work, not only are you not spending money, but you're also earning money. So you get like a double-edged sword when it comes to the side hustle.

It distracts me from spending when I work more. Are you sure you're in occupational therapy and not in finance? Because you're talking the talk. You nailed it. You nailed it, man. Well done. That's beautiful. Very cool.

Proud of you, man. So who's this cheerleading crew you brought with you? My brother and his wife and my parents as well other family members couldn't make it but they're watching yeah and sharing you know so you had a good good you had good support good background absolutely lots of people cheering you on going yes yes yes clean it up clean it up you can do it you can do it that's very good how'd you get connected to ramsey well growing up when i was even younger uh dad used to listen to talk radio,

and there's that guy with that accent yelling at people to pay off their debt. I don't know who that is. I just always knew Ramsey was just kind of like the name in the household. Everybody knew when you graduated, you got the total money makeover, or when you got married,

that's what my parents would give as gifts to other people so i like your parents that's good good stuff so great hey we got the live and give box for you it's the baby steps millionaires book which is your next step for sure you're heading that way congratulations sir you're a very sharp young man you're a hero you took control of your life it's got the Total Money Makeover book, which apparently your family gives away all the time, so you'll be able to do that. And the Financial Peace University, a membership to that. Go through it or give it away, whatever

you want to. It's all for you to live and to give. And thanks for making the trip all the way in to do this debt-free scream. We appreciate you. You're an inspiration, sir. Very, very well done. John from Amarillo, Texas. $83,000 paid off in 17 months making 120 to 150 count it down let's hear a debt-free scream three two one i'm dead that's how they do it in texas boys and girls i like it i like it a lot yes very well done so when you work more you don't spend as much because you don't have time to sit and doom

scroll amazon that's a fact doom scroll influencers trying to peddle you crap you don't need. You don't have a chance to. Let me tell you, there's a direct correlation between the amount of time you spend on the internet and the amount of money you spend. Idle time is the devil's workshop. Good. That's it. Internet time is the devil's workshop. The advertiser's workshop. It's the advertiser's workshop for sure advertisers workshop it's the advertisers

workshop they're going to get you the longer you're on there the more likely you that's a lot of hooks in this pond fish just saying this is the ramsey show jade walsh all ramsey personality is my co-host today you heard that debt-free screamer john talk about how important the budget is and he was using the every dollar budget uh jade and rachel and george camel are all doing budgeting webinars that are free teaching you how to budget, how to handle an irregular income, how to do actually integrate the baby steps into your budget, how to get ready for Christmas, how to get ready for October 1st if you've got a student loan. All of these things are going to be covered in these budgeting webinars. If you want to register for one of them, they're free. You interact with them. Jade answers questions. Rachel answers questions. George, whoever's doing it, you can

figure that out. You just go to everydollar.com slash budgeting. And you did one yesterday. I did. I did one yesterday. We had over 5,000 signups. It was incredible. Wow. Very good. Yeah. Some of these have had 5,000 and 10,000 signups. And again, it's completely free. It's us helping you, showing you the EveryDollarBudget app, how it works. And man, be sure you check it out. Yeah. And let me just, because I think sometimes, Dave, we say the word budget and people have this thing in their mind of what it is.

But I don't think people understand all the features that are part of this. This idea that you can plan your paychecks, you can literally go in and schedule when you want to make payments, when you want to spend the money that's designated. The paycheck planning tool for inside the month is a big, it actually makes it work. It's amazing. To me, that's one of the missing pieces. And then there's the financial roadmap, which I think anybody who's listened to this show and it's like, okay, I know I'm supposed to pay off my debt but if i pay off my debt

at what point will i be able to save my emergency fund and then at what point can i buy home it calculates all that for you all of it it'll project your net worth it'll project when you could be a millionaire it'll project when you'll have your down payment saved come on you guys need this yeah but it's also going to project and kick your butt that's right and make you do this stuff too so there's that part so be sure and check it out free webinars every dollar.com slash budgeting jade's doing them rachel cruz is doing them george camel's doing them and like i said jade had one yesterday 5 000 folks hers two weeks ago was 10 000 that's right so i jump in there you can be part of this we interact with you we answer questions the questions pop up y'all work them into the talk right that's right oh yeah we hear

directly from you guys so jump on it marnie is in salt lake city if i push the right button that is uh there's marnie hi marnie how are you hi dave and jade thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So I recently graduated law school. Good for you. And I, I'm single. I'm a full-time single mom and I have two kids and I'm 40 and don't have a house. So we're just been renting. And so I have some money that I've been saving. It's been set aside to buy a house. But I'm wondering, because now that we're finally here, it felt like it would never come, but I'm wondering if I really want to do my own practice. And so I'm wondering if it's okay to take money from my savings to start my own practice instead of getting a regular nine-to-five job.

As a lawyer, you passed your bar? I'm still waiting to find out, so I don't know yet. And you got out of law school with no student loan debt? Correct. Okay. Any debt at all? No. How much money is in this pile? About $64,000.

And you're 40 years old? Yes. My age scares me because I only have about, so in addition to that, I only have about $17,000. You're talking to a 63-year-old. Your age doesn't scare me well i mean it makes me nervous not having a lot for retirement not having a home like you're amazing i mean you're a single mom just graduated from high school from law school and passed the bar oh my gosh look at you you're no debt i'm and at 40 years old you you know you're like a superhero um do you know oh go ahead i i i love people going in business for themselves i've been in business for myself my whole life so i love the

entrepreneurial aspect of this um and for some reason i'm kind of wanting you to take a job for a little bit and just kind of i think i want you to learn how to be a lawyer before you open a law practice and law school doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer it teaches you how to it teaches you how to pass tests about the law and there's a difference when you actually go into a courtroom and then what versus when you did a mock trial in law school there's a difference when you actually sit down with someone and they look at you and say, I want to get a divorce, and you're my gal that's going to do it. And you're actually dealing with, and you've got to put a restraining order

because this guy's beating me. When you really have that happen and you're actually being a lawyer, that's different than, and you're running a business, which you've never done before too, that's different than what you've done so far. So far you've learned how to take tests about the law. i think i want you to learn how to be a lawyer before you want to learn how to be a lawyer and run a business at the same time but i i maybe i'm being too conservative well i was planning on um hiring like a law coach for part of like so they have business and then

like coaches that will help you oh yeah i mean you know you can have a you can have a personal trainer but until you actually do the exercises you haven't done the exercises and if you go work for a law firm you're going to get the benefit of that just by look working at the law firm you're going to learn how to like dave said you're going to learn how to do this you're not going to have to pay somebody to teach you best practices because you're going to learn that i'm fine if you do it but the problem you're going to have if you open the business and i'm 50 50 because i love the idea of the opening of businesses you have to learn how to business run a business and you have to learn how to practice law all at the same time and 64 000 is not much cushion you need to make some money and you can go make you know what 80 100 000 bucks

out of the gate right now working for somebody and just start stacking some more cash and learning how the law and and watch how they're running their business at that law firm because running a law firm is running a business. You know, you still have to pay people. You still have to, you know, if you've got a receptionist, you have to withhold taxes. Yeah. You've still got to manage the banking. You've got to do all these things while you practice law.

It's a totally different skill set. Yeah. And so, you know, either one is okay. But I'm just giving you a warning that it's not going to be all skittles and rainbow. You've got two more hills to climb, and you have to learn how to run the business. I'm going to send you a copy of the Entree Leadership book, our number one bestseller on how we run this business. It's our playbook, and the Entree Leadership materials are how to run a business stuff. I do that podcast every week as well, and you can tune in and listen to that but it's um that's

about running a business a small business and a law of a small law firm is a small business so uh yeah if you're gonna do it plug in plan on learning two skill sets that you don't have yet being a lawyer is different than graduating from law school and running a business is different than being a lawyer so those are two additional skill sets and it's just it's scaring me a little bit for you i i you've worked so hard i want you to have some prosperity there's just no i can't see a downside to working even just a couple of years at a firm. Yeah, except if you lose the power of the dream and you get stuck in the rut. Or you get lulled to sleep. Well, a true business owner would not get lulled to sleep.

A true business owner would be like, I can't take this. I've got to go. I got to get get out here i got to do my thing i got i mean i might say i might make that argument no that's true that's true but it's yeah either one is okay if you're gonna go the the open the firm i'm telling you these are it's more of an uphill climb than I think you anticipate. So I'm just warning you, you're signing on for another tough run. And you've been through enough tough runs for a while to suit me. So it's okay to work somewhere for three years and then open your firm. You'll only be 43. And shut up about being old.

There's part of that, too. If she were to go into business for herself, that's not her immediately going out, renting an office space, immediately going out. Got to, because you've got to get money coming in. Well, I mean, can she run it out of her? Is there a cheaper way? No, you're not with a law firm. You have to have a commercial location. It's not.

That's even, look, that's even more checks. $64,000 is going to go fast. Yeah, that's even more 64 000 bucks is gonna go fast that's even more checks on the other side of the box for me gotta go fast this is the ramsey show Hey, what's up, guys? It's Jade. If you love the show and want a deeper dive on your money journey, we have a weekly newsletter that gives you trending and helpful articles and tips on following the Ramsey way. Just go to ramseysolutions.com today to sign up for our newsletter. Again, that's ramseysolutions.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter.