The Ramsey Show - App - Forgiveness Is More Satisfying Than Revenge (Hour 2)

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality and number one best-selling author. Also, my daughter is my co-host today here on the air. Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.

You jump in. We'll talk about your life and your money. Nathan is in Pittsburgh. Hi, Nathan. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. Hey, Rachel. Thanks for having me. Sure. What's up? So I started listening to your show after I graduated college. My manager told me to look you guys up and start listening to some of the content. Fortunately, I was able to work at parts stores through college so i graduated with

no student loans um i'm right now i'm on baby step six i'm single i don't have kids so i'm not worried about baby step five um i currently have 12 months in the emergency fund. I lost both my parents, so I don't really have a fallback plan if something major goes wrong. My question is, once I get the house paid off, which I have about $64,000 left to pay off. Wow. to pay off wow when do you start i guess enjoying life and how much do you look towards like the retirement and saving that way because i feel like right now all i'm doing is okay are you putting the 15 away for your baby step four? Yes. I have 15 going tomorrow. We're all far away. Okay, good.

And what do you make a year? Right now I make about 70 a year. Okay. And you're how old again? 25. Okay. Wow, you have done a wonderful job, Nathan. Congratulations.

You should already be enjoying life. When you're at Baby Steps 456, you let your foot off the gas. You're not gazelle intense. And you begin to budget some enjoyment items in there while you continue to be intentional about some of your other financial goals. But there's no reason at all that you shouldn't, you know, upgrade a car with cash or go on a trip if you can find a place that's open and that kind of stuff. And, you know, you know, I think I think you need to give yourself permission. I don't know. Why? Why have you stayed so intense, do you think? Well, well growing up my family never really had money so it's kind of just that mentality i saved since i can remember so did they talk about

money or was there stress or what was the deal uh there was a lot of stress so my parents they never really had money um it was kind of just like a work all the time but like a sort like a sore subject at your house yeah so they always taught me to save from a young age and i guess that kind of just stuck with me even though they didn't yeah well they tried but they got into debt and a failed business. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I feel like a lot of your caution, Nathan, is not ending up back like how you were right. Or how your parents were,

you want to do something different and that fear of going backwards is it's scary to you, I would say. But I think that you've put yourself in a great position and I think you'll find, I mean, you have 12 months of an emergency fund set aside, which is double what we recommend. But I can just tell out of the safety and the cautiousness in your voice that that feels good.

And then you're going to have to realize, though, that no amount of money ultimately is going to bring you that security. Like there's things to be wise about. We talk about it on here all the time that, you know, you need your emergency funds. You need to be saving for the future and retirement, all of it. But once you start down the path that money is ultimately going to be my security, I mean, we meet people that are worth multi-million dollars and they still can be frugal because they're so freaked out of going back to where they were. And we don't want you

to live like that at all. So I think you've been wise. I think you've done everything through the baby steps. And Nathan, I think you're going to be great. I think you're gonna be fine. I think that there's a little bit of breathing room you need in your life and in your spirit and your emotions to enjoy some of this money and practice spending. I think for some people it is hard to spend, but I would say put an amount of money in the budget to say, I have to spend this because you're going to. Yeah, that practice is good. That's a really good idea. And also add generosity to your budget. Yeah. If you will learn to spend on purpose, and it doesn't have to be a lot, but just go,

this amount of money is just for pure enjoyment. This amount of money is for pure generosity. I'm going to give this away to somebody, to something that's hurting somebody out there. Plenty of hurting folks out there right now. Then those two things will loosen you up a little bit and move you away from the fear that comes out of your family background. And everybody's got a family background that affects their spending. You talk about that in the new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money. And so which of the four types of households was he from then?

Yeah, he sounds like the anxious money classroom. A lot of stress, but not a lot of verbal communication around it. And it's a real thing. I mean, like literally how you grow up. A kid can feel the stress in the air. And if you guys are not talking about it, but the stress is there, then that's the anxious money classroom. And if you grew up in that, it, but the stress is there, then that's the anxious money classroom. And if you grew up in that, then you're going to have a tendency to do this. A lot of our money behaviors come from, they don't have to, but they can come from how

you were brought up and the type of household you grew up in. Was it a secure environment? Was it an anxious environment? Was it verbal or was it closed down environment was it an anxious environment was it verbal or was it closed down verbally but the stress was in the air which is what you're smelling there on that one yeah yeah and you cover that and know yourself know your money right yeah digging in and understanding and i like that he even pinpointed back to yeah this is this is where my fear comes from because that is one of the financial fears is i don't want to end up like my parents and i'm going to do everything in my in my control to not go back and they passed away yeah so he doesn't have a safety net at 25 that's right nobody can run back to so he's got that extra emergency fund so security is

all over this discussion absolutely it's all over it so very very self-aware Nathan you've done a great job with money but you've also done a great job of identifying that it is now time to enjoy some of it. Not go hog wild. We're not going crazy. We're not going all the way back over to the other side of the spectrum, but this is the right thing to do. Hang on. I'm going to have Kelly pick up, and we're going to get you signed up for a copy of Rachel's brand-new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money. It comes out in January, so don't expect it before then.

But we're going to give you a copy because you need to read through it because it's exactly the antidote for what you're facing is to know yourself. And, you know, you talk about scarcity versus abundance. You talk about nerd versus free spirit. You talk about saver versus spender. You talk about the fears that people face with money all of those things affect the money how you guys have how every one of us handle money yeah it's it's a powerful thing when you have the self-awareness of understanding the why why am I doing these things why are my habits the way they are you can change them and implement good habits

here you go that's good stuff This is the Dave Ramsey Show. you've worked hard to make your business successful blood sweat tears and prayers because as a business owner you are the secret sauce and your company is only as strong as you are. So what happens if a key ingredient is missing? And what if that ingredient is your health, resulting in expensive medical bills? Christian Healthcare Ministries, or CHM, presents health cost sharing. It's different from insurance in that Christians help other Christians to meet their medical expenses. Various programs are available depending on your needs and budget. As a Better Business Bureau accredited charity, CHM has helped its members successfully share over $5 billion

in each other's medical bills for nearly 40 years. Various programs are available depending on your needs and budget. Learn how CHM has served small business owners just like you by visiting chministries.org slash budget. chministries.org slash budget. That's chministries.org slash budget. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality number one best-selling author is my co-host today here on the air this is the Dave Ramsey show on the line is one of our bestest of friends a lady we love dearly miss Lisa Turkhurstst. Hi, Lisa. How are you? Hi, Dave.

Great. Thank you so much. Absolutely. So glad to have you. Lisa is the president of Proverbs 31 Ministries and author of three New York Times bestselling books, including It's Not Supposed to Be This Way. Her new book is Forgiving What You Can't Forget. Lisa and I and Rachel have shared the stage many times in lots of different conferences over the years.

This lady is brilliant. She is a wonderful teacher, wonderful speaker, and obviously a world-class writer as well. So welcome. It's so good to have you. How's your year been? Thank you. Well, like everyone else, unexpected. I think that's the best way to say

2020 unexpected that's a nice way of saying it we around here we call it the dumpster fire year the year of the dumpster fire so the whole stinking thing is a mess it's just a mess my counselor and i i agree my counselor and i were talking the other day and he said 2020 has kind of been like draining the lake and everybody's forced to see what's really there what busyness has has always been able to cover up 2020 has ripped away busyness and now we're really really forced to see what we're facing expose what is true yeah one of the greatest covers on a book i think i ever saw was your last book it's not supposed to be this way because it confuses everybody by being upside down of course it's not supposed to be this way life is upside down and you talk about in that book something that you and i have talked about offline but never on the air and you've

you've told this story many times publicly but uh just not here on the air uh about your husband's you devote divulge your husband's betrayal. And then you had to work through the whole idea of forgiveness and forgetting something that hurtful. How do you do that? Well, I think it's impossible to forget. And so that's why I think a lot of people have this notion that the Bible says forgive and forget, that actually that's not a biblical principle. You can very much learn to forgive even before the memories, you know, even while the memories

are still painful. And Dave, I think the biggest lesson that I learned is when talking about forgiveness, you cannot start with just the command to forgive. I think we have to start with people's pain. And what helped me the most is the day that my counselor asked me if I wanted to heal from this. And I said, yes. And he said, well, then today's a great day to forgive. And I just thought, you're crazy, maybe even high, because how in the world could today be a good day to start working on forgiveness when I'm not done hurting yet?

And the other person hasn't said they're sorry. They haven't acknowledged what I've been through. And he said, okay, then I'll acknowledge it. And so he handed me this stack of three-by-five cards and just told me, write down all that's caused you so much pain in this situation. And I had about 40 cards, three by five cards written down, you know, all my pain. And then he looked at me and he said, the best thing someone could say, he said, I believe you and what happened to you shouldn't have happened, Lisa. And I guess, Dave, I want to say that to somebody today on the air, if you've been deeply wounded and you've

never had that moment where they said that they're sorry, I want to say to you, I'll bear witness to your pain. I'm so sorry for what happened. But friend, you deserve to stop suffering because of what other people have done to you. And forgiveness really is the only way to sever that source of suffering. So good, Lisa. You're one of my favorite people because even the way you verbalize really hard situations, it makes it feel doable. Like the hope even and how you vocalize it. I'm like, yes, because you even talk about how forgiveness is even more satisfying than

revenge. And I think we live in a world where revenge feels so good for people to get what we feel like they deserve. But you say forgiveness actually is more satisfying. Well, it is because forgiveness is the only step towards something good. And bitterness, even though it feels like when we hold on to bitterness and resentment, that it kind of protects us. Have you ever had that feeling like if I'm resentful toward that person that I can hold them at arm's length and they'll learn their lesson eventually? But what I started to realize is that that bitterness and those resentments, they were turning me into someone I didn't want to be. And, you know, really, bitterness doesn't just want to be a feeling.

It wants to be your whole feeling. It wants to take over every part of you and then leak out from you. And I just think it's time to trade all that unnecessary drama for an upgrade. And I truly, I don't say this lightly because I know that when you say the word forgiveness, people attach it to the deepest hurt imaginable. But when somebody dares to forgive in this world where fists slam fists and people talk so harshly toward other people and everybody has opinions that are just so dogmatic, when someone dares to display the humble but full of powerful strength, act of forgiveness, it stops all and people notice. And it is rare and it's beautiful. So I think one of the times, for me,

some of the reasons that folks struggle with the idea, and it's thrown around Christianity all the time, the whole concept of forgiveness, is they struggle with forgiveness being the same thing as reconciliation. You can forgive someone and still decide not to have them in your life, right? That's right. Forgiveness and reconciliation don't always come as a package deal. God says that forgiveness is a command, but reconciliation

is very dependent. And honestly, Dave, I didn't understand that forever. And that was one of the big hindrances that were really holding me back from forgiving. But when I finally understood that I can forgive and I can put up boundaries to emotionally and physically protect myself, then forgiveness became a lot more doable. And we have to remember, boundaries aren't to shove another person away. They're to help hold me together. And honestly, I think that's why Jesus was able to say to us, forgive 70 times 7. Jesus didn't mean for us to be abused over and over and over. I believe that Jesus taught, create enough emotional space between

you and them so that there's safety there, that from afar, you can forgive somebody 70 times 7, because they're not going to pummel you with devastation and put you in an unhealthy place. That's a great point, because I feel like it gives you, in a sense, if I'm wrong here, Lisa, but it gives you a level of health and control over the situation so that you can forgive, right? Because if you let an abusive type person or relationship in your life constantly and there is no boundary, then yeah, you are being run over all day, every day, all the time,

and you almost don't even have the strength to forgive at that point. But when you have a healthy boundary up to say, hey, here's where this is going to stop, I'm able then to forgive you. That's right. And that was really important in my story as well. I mean, I think what people don't realize is my husband and I, we were separated for two and a half years. And though that was really, really hard, it was necessary because of all the dynamics that we were dealing with. I felt like I was becoming more and more unhealthy because I kept trying to rescue

the situation. I kept like he would crawl up on the train tracks. I would see the train coming and I would crawl up trying to drag him off. And one day I realized the train is still barreling toward us. And if I keep crawling up on these tracks and trying to drag him off, eventually the train is going to run over us both. And I had to do the hardest thing I've ever done. And that is release him to his choices. And honestly, if Art were on the interview today, he would say that was the very thing that finally woke him up.

And that's the day his life started to turn around is when I let go. Powerful. Powerful. The book is Forgiving What You Can't. It'll be another number. Forgiving What You Can't Forget. I left off a word. I'm sorry.

Thanks, Rachel. And Lisa Turkhurst is our guest. Lisa, thank you for stopping by. Thank you so much, Dave, Rachel. I love both of you. You too, darling. Thank the world of you. You are an incredible, incredible intellect, incredible speaker, communicator, thought leader. We're just honored to call you a friend. Proverbs 31 Ministries, check it out.

Check out Forgiving What You Can't Forget, Lisa Turkhurst. You will not regret getting anything she's written, but certainly this new one. This is The Dave Ramsey personality is my co-host this hour. Open phones at 888-825-5225. If you haven't heard, we're giving away cash all season long for Christmas. We have our second Ramsey Christmas giveaway winner. Congratulations to Lindsey from Mississippi. You just won $500. Our team will be in touch and get that to you and you can enter to win the ramsey christmas giveaway daily to

increase your chances of winning one of our weekly five hundred dollar gift prizes or a five thousand dollar grand prize of course no purchase necessary just go to daveramsey.com slash giveaway right now Right now to enter. Plus, for the next 24 hours only, we are giving away a special deal to our listeners. Use the code RACHEL at checkout to get the Love Your Life, Not Theirs audiobook for free, delivered instantly with a purchase of Rachel Cruz's new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money, which will come out in January. This deal is for today only. Use the code RACHEL at checkout and, of course, enter to win some cash and save some serious money on your Christmas shopping today at DaveRamsey.com slash giveaway.

Again, no purchase necessary. Our question of the day comes from blinds.com. Find out for yourself why blinds.com is the number one online retailer of custom window coverings, free samples, free shipping, and with new promos they run every month, you save even more. Use the promo code Ramsey. Rachel, our question. Yeah, today's question comes from Martin in California. He said, I started the debt-free journey before I got married. My then-fiance knew I was on this journey, but never gave me her true thoughts about it. We've been married four months now, and I still can't get her on board with paying off debt, with budgeting and being a teammate on this journey. I signed up for FPU, but she refuses to watch the

lessons with me. She also does not accept the unity of marriage. She still continues on about what's hers is hers and what's mine is mine. I feel like I can't win with money as long as I'm with her. Would you recommend marriage counseling or is there another way to get her on board with our debt-free journey? Oh man, Martin, you're getting this early on in marriage. Yeah, this is a hard one. I mean, my first question, I would have so many questions for her of asking her not in a, you know, major conflict type way, but ask her, hey, why? Ask her the why. Why does she not want to do this? What about this makes her uncomfortable? What about this does she not like? I mean, going in and asking more of the questions of understanding what really is preventing her from being on the same team. And if you guys get to a point that you cannot get on the same team after you both have had multiple conversations, and again, you're kind of digging into more under the surface, then yeah.

I mean, I think bringing in a third party is always smart. You tried FPU, but if she refuses to watch it, she refuses to watch it. But yeah, I mean, marriage counseling, I would start having those red lights are going to start flashing though, Martin, because money fights and money problems, they are one of the leading causes of divorce. And the fact that she is not on the same page with you worries me a lot. And so I would kind of get down and figure out what is she fearful of? Why is she choosing not to do this? And then for the betterment of your marriage, yeah, I definitely

would recommend marriage counseling. Indeed, marriage counseling, for sure. No question about it. You needed pre-marriage counseling, and you should have discovered all of this ahead of time. Any of you out there listening, this is what you want to avoid. The data on marriage, there's lots of data. Everybody talks about 50% of the marriages end in divorce. No, they really don't. That includes people who get married at 16 years old after becoming pregnant in high school. Okay?

Well, yeah, you're going to have to struggle with that one. Statistically, that's a marriage that's not got a shot. Now, some people make it, thank goodness, but that one's a real that one. Statistically, that's a marriage that's not got a shot. Now, some people make it, thank goodness, but that one's a real tough one, okay? And, you know, listen, if you make, if your household income is over $70,000 a year, you have a four-year education, your parents are married, you dated for six months or more prior to getting married, and less than five years, by the way, you... Have a religious affiliation. You are in agreement on your religious affiliation, and you have one.

Your percentage chance of divorce is very, very low. It drops down under 10 percent then but so you know but the problem is you guys obviously did not get into in this particular case enough pre-marriage counseling you didn't know each other uh because she has something that's driving this i don't know whether it's fear or anger but she's obst And, man, that is an uncomfortable life you have in your future, living with an obstinate spouse. And so, yeah, you need marriage counseling. But this is the reason, young people, that you date for a little while.

You have a very intentional, old-fashioned word, courting process where you are discovering everything about the other person. You're doing pre-marriage counseling prior to getting married because it increases your probability of a successful marriage, and it decreases the pain that young Martin is getting ready to go through. Yeah, and some of the things that, you know, you just listed out are not in your control as a person. You can't control if your parents have stayed married or not. You can't control certain things. What you can control, though, is to see the data point of marriage.

And there's like the four main reasons why people get divorced and the four main causes of fights. And it's what is it? It's money. It's sex. It's in-laws and raising kids. And that's like the big points of tension. So if those are the four big red flags. It's actually religion, not sex. But, yeah being it doesn't matter so you put five in

there if you want i read multiple lists with different with different things and sometimes and sometimes the money thing is like number five it doesn't make the top four on so i mean like it's there's a range though of things that have conflict with the marriage so if those are red flags and all of that raise them up and just say, hey, we need, I mean, all of you dating and engaged, dig into these areas before you get married for sure. But Martin, yeah, I mean, I would for sure. You need, because again, this isn't just a money problem. This is a fact that she doesn't want to play on the same team. And that worries me more than just that she won't budget or get out of debt with you. There's something even more. So marriage counseling for sure. Get a good one and stick with you. There's something even more. So marriage counseling, for sure. Get a good one and stick

with it. Yeah. I mean, having disagreements is one thing in a young marriage like that. Being obstinate is another and belligerent. And the verbiage that you're using is indicating that's where she is. So that's pretty scary stuff. Allie is with us in Canada. Hi, Allie. How are you? I'm great. Thanks. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Thanks for taking my call. So I am self-employed.

I own four small businesses. And just with a lot of the circumstances of what's been going on with, you know, COVID and certain industries being required to close, my question is kind of related to my businesses and my career. So my four businesses are in the health and fitness industry. So I own two small gyms. Yeah. Yes. I would have never said that before, but now I do. So yeah, two gyms and a martial arts school. And then I have one online fitness and nutrition coaching company, and I run them with my family, my parents and my husband. And we were doing really, really well. We've been running them for the past 10 years. We started my first one when I was 21 and kind of had built on them for the past 10 years.

And then we got closed in March. So we couldn't run our gyms and we couldn't run our martial arts studio. So my husband and I were on baby step two. We paid off, I think, $30,000 between November and March. And then we had to pause just because we weren't drawing income anymore. Sure. And so now that we've been reopened for a couple months, there are kind of some risks of being closed down again.

And so since since our first closure, him and I have both gotten hired by a American online fitness and nutrition company just because we realized kind of the importance of diversifying our income a little bit. Amen. Just kind of being where we're at. But I guess my question is, how do we navigate whether we, you know, double down and try and pivot our businesses that we've been, you know, at for a decade? Or at what point do we look at these careers that we've chosen that formerly I kind of thought we're really secure. Nobody could tell me how hard I could or couldn't work. I'll tell you what. Hold on for a second.

When we come back from this break, we'll try to help you with this because it's a question that deserves more than 10 seconds answer to anyway. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Allie is in Canada. She has a fitness center and a martial arts center that they've had and invested their careers in for a decade plus. And they finally got reopened after COVID, and now there's noise that they may be closed down again. She's trying to figure out how to navigate this ridiculous world that we live in and keep her business alive.

And her heart's breaking a little bit because her old career has been poured into this. Is that a fair summary of what you told me so far? Yeah, super fair. Yeah. Well, you know, I share your frustration. I've gone past the point. I have made a commitment to God to be kind to people who I don't agree with on these issues, and it's been very hard because some of these people are absolutely misbehaving.

The way they're treating each other, the number of times I've been screeched at for not wearing a mask by some idiot in a store, the number of times that I go into a business and the business abuses me as a customer, I'm tired of it it i'm really getting weary the number of times that the government of canada or the government of the united states or the state of tennessee or the city of nashville is denying our freedom to operate uh when the data is now in on this thing it has gotten out out of hand. So I share your frustration. I'm getting angry enough.

I'm getting ready to start a freaking crusade against these people. But it's gotten out of hand. You know, the amount of totalitarianism where the governments are just walking in and wholesale shutting down our freaking lives and taking them from us has gotten out of hand. Yeah, that's what it feels like. So I'm with you, but I don't know how to help you because they're going to do it, it looks like. And so you and I are faced with, when they do that stuff, with trying to abide by their ridiculous decisions,

and they are ridiculous based on the data that's in, or go to jail, you know. And, of course, half our customers are cuckoo for coconuts. And so, and the other half are mad at the other half. And so it's just, it's weird. It's just a weird thing to navigate so i i think the problem we're facing is the same thing we faced when there was violence in some of the major cities and the major cities were shut down in america over uh the racial

issues that in an unpredictable environment, business cannot exist. When we cannot predict order, and the only thing we can predict is chaos, then business can't function, and it shuts down the economics of the situation. It affects more lives than the violence affects or than COVID affects. A lot more lives in a lot more negative ways so i think that you just have you know what we're doing is we're just having to navigate and we're staying right on the bleeding cutting edge of what is allowed uh and pushing the boundaries on what is allowed and uh if i'm in your shoes that's what i'm doing but the problem is you still are not going to be

able to if they come in and just say all gyms are shut down then you're just straight up going to jail if you open up again so you've got to turn around then and um uh try to find online ways to deliver uh you know zoom workouts or uh some kind of a digital curriculum delivery of some kind where you still use your passion for people's fitness and you still use your knowledge base, but you're just delivering it in a different way. And we'll just pray God that it's a temporary thing that you have to do that, that for the rest of our lives these governments are not going to – they're we know they're not going to meddle at this level because there's a bunch there's going to be a freaking revolution if they continue to do this

because people have had it it's not going to go on a lot longer i mean they most people are not sheep and uh they're just not going to do it a lot longer. So I don't know what the boiling point will be on this, but I don't predict a decade of it. I can tell you that. That we don't have workout facilities and we don't have gyms and we don't have martial arts for a decade? I don't think so. Yeah, and I think it's part, too, Allie, that you and you guys have already done that. You've shifted, you said, to work for an online company. But I'm like, where are the things that you have to get creative, right?

I mean, like even part of our business was just turned upside down with live events and so now we're having to get creative of what that looks like of how to do events like like it's just it takes a different part of your brain my kids were part of this like little sports class thing that's in our area and it's so sweet and great but they had to shut down due to covid but then they ended up starting this whole new department of it. Let's reiterate that. They had to shut down because of government regulation. It's not because of COVID.

I'm sorry. Okay, well. Because the health departments are over the top, lost their dadgum minds. That's why. It's the Dave Ramsey show. You, yes, correct me. But what I'm saying is that they, and then all of our schools got shut down this spring. But then they created a whole, like, recess department where the coaches would come to neighborhoods where these pods were of homeschooled kids now and, like, have recess. And they would charge for the session.

So, like, just the creative ways that companies who have been shut down through government regulations because of COVID covid 19 that yeah you're just getting you have to get creative i'm like it's the only way to make money or just or or completely having to ditch the industry and just get a job that's there which sucks like i don't want you to do that alley but what the way we've gone at it is in our business is this we've had entire segments of the business that just disappeared live events is 98 gone okay gone. Okay. And we used to do, uh, 60 or 80 of these things a year. And so I've got an entire department of people that don't have a job. I've had to redeploy them inside the business otherwise so that I didn't have to fire them because of it. And, uh, so we lost that. So what can we do? Well, we can do live streams of events and put them out there.

They don't make any revenue to amount to anything, but we're doing them. I mean, we're making a little bit of money, but more than anything, we're just helping people, which we figured out a long time ago if we can do that. So, you know, we're pivoting on that. But we're not pivoting on that with the idea that live events will never come back. We're pivoting on that with the idea that for now i have to tolerate this crap and uh my customers won't come and i got venues that are you know the health department and you know 62 policemen with tactical gear will come in and bust us because we're all

within six feet of each other or some kind of crap like that. And so, you know, it's just ridiculous. And so I've got to tolerate this for a while and do something different for a while, and that's what you've got to do. So what you do need to ascertain is if you really start to believe, and this is Henry Cloud's book, Necessary Endings, anytime you're in a career, you're in a business, you're in a situation where you start to believe that you have lost hope that it will ever return. And this isn't being hysterical or emotional. It's, you know, with critical thinking skills, you're looking at the landscape.

I don't think this is ever going to go back. Let me give you an example of that, okay? Blockbuster should have pivoted permanently because they should have lost hope that people weren't going to rent vhs tapes from them they didn't and so they went broke because they didn't pivot and netflix pivoted well netflix went from mailing dvds to an online but it was still it was essentially the same business. But one didn't lose hope, and one did. And so they changed permanently who they are.

And now Netflix is a major operation because of that, and Blockbusters is a memory. So you've got to look at that and say, permanently, what have I got to change? That the landscape has permanently changed how much of this covid landscape do you believe is permanent and you know i was gonna you know i don't believe it's permanent because i i think it's you know the the it's not you know 20 of the population did not die two million people did not die. You know, one thing we do know is that you don't have to learn much about math to get a medical degree. We have figured that out, that medical people don't do math well.

That's a permanent thing that I now know that I didn't know before this. And so, you know, we do have a lot of data on this to look at it and to use some dadgum common sense. God, that aggravates me because the problem is lives all over America are like hers. They're being turned upside down on this. And it's got to stop. This hysteria has got to stop. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, it's Kelly, associate producer and phone screener for the Dave Ramsey Show.

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