The Ramsey Show - App - How Do I Dissolve a LLC With an Ex-Friend? (Hour 2)

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I am Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman. Ramsey personality and host of the Ken Coleman Show is my co-host today as we take your calls about your life and about your money. Open phones here at 888-825-5225.

That's 888-825-5225. James is in Nashville to start off this hour. Hi, James. How are you? Pretty good, Dave. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? So my wife and I actually got married back here in October, actually in Nashville, right on the border under the pedestrian bridge. But that obviously equals joint finances now. So my wife went to occupational therapy school, and she's a pretty big student loaned from that. So her student loans are around $177,000. Obviously, with the Biden plan right now, there's no interest accruing their public

loans until September 30th, as of now. At that time, so before September 30th, we would have the ability to pay them off in lump sum, so just pay them off in cash. So I'm just wondering if that's the best thing for us to do. We would be able to build up an emergency fund pretty quickly, so we'd be okay, but it's a lot of our non-qualified assets going towards the student loans. So just looking for your perspective around this. Wow. Well, congratulations on the marriage.

Thank you. Where did all these assets come from? Where did this money come from? Pretty fortunate, pretty blessed. I work in the financial industry. I have a pretty decent income, and I've been investing since I was about 16 years old. So just over time, able to build them up. And we also have a decent amount in our qualified retirement asset,

our Roth 401 and a Roth IRA as well. How old are you guys? I am 27. My wife just turned 26. Wow. And what's your household income? Household would probably be for this year, let's just call it 300, conservatively, 300 grand.

You guys are killing it. That's what I smelled. Good. I'm so proud of y'all. Well done. Appreciate that. Fabulous, fabulous income. Okay, so let's kind of play these two things out.

One is you wait until September, and then you pay it off. Two is you pay it off today, correct? Correct, yep. Okay. And so the difference is what you would earn on the money between now and september correct exactly opportunity cost of capital exactly exactly i got the same degree you do and so um the uh i mean we're talking about depending on how it's invested, what, six months?

And so, six, eight thousand bucks. Right. Okay. Right. All right. So, all of the data that we have on building wealth is based, the people that have built wealth have followed a set of principles steady, and they haven't found shortcuts. And the thing that, the way you and I are trained academically,

our mind leads us to, my wife calls it scheming and scamming. We're always trying to figure out an angle because we know so much math. It's the curse of the math nerd. We know so much math so we have an advantage, but we know so much math we can get caught up in the analysis and almost get paralysis of the analysis instead of just going forward and driving the car correctly. Does that make any sense to you? It does make sense. It does make sense.

And I should have expanded on the question, too, because we're looking at opportunity cost of capital now, but we're in this weird time where there's no interest accruing on these public loans given COVID. I know. But the rate is high. So it's 8% when it does turn back on. So you would pay it off. It's like someone that makes $50,000 a year has a $10,000 furniture bill, 90 days, same as cash. Do we wait 90 days and play the float, or do we just pay it off?

Right. Or, and I'm sorry if I misspoke, do we refinance, which is probably a big no. Yeah, it would be a big no. We're not keeping this around. Because, again, there's no data that says I got rich because I kept refinancing my student loan debt. There's just no one that's ever done that in the history of mankind. It runs around in our math brains because our math brains. So here's what I end up doing.

If I run the numbers down like we just did and all of my gyrations make $8,000 and you make $300 a year, that's telling me that I'm working too hard at this situation. And I need to just go with the smart, common sense principle because the actual math doesn't amount to squat. If you made $50,000 a year and it amounted to right if you made fifty thousand dollars a year and it amounted to fifty thousand then we'd have to talk about well do we screw around with this a little bit you know but this is eight thousand dollars which honestly you could have made that while we were talking about it right right i guess it's a psychological factor exactly i built up this non-qualified nest exactly and i can pay off these loans, but then a lot of that non-qualified nest egg goes away.

Every bit of intellect tells you you've got to pay them off by the day that first interest is due. So our only real discussion is now to September. You know that part. You've already made that decision, and you can argue yourself down off that ledge. I don't have to do that. So you can do whatever you want to do. I have had a good benefit of breaking my math nerd self over into grandma's common sense and going, I'm getting this crap out of my life while I can. I got this beautiful woman, and when I look at her, I don't want to see student loans.

That's exactly right. And they make so much money, as he said in his own words. We can build up that emergency fund so quickly. But, Dave, this is where we get to the politicalization of psychology, you know, where we say, oh, well, they might pay them off. They might forgive them. They might kick the can. There's no program where they're forgiving them. Well, not any that have been proposed yet. Not yet.

For $177,000 for people that make $300,000. Right. They've only been for up to $50,000 for people who don't make money. That's right. But the politicians say things like – If you're an evil rich person making $300,000, you're screwed by the Democrats.300,000. Right. They've only been for up to $50,000 for people who don't make money. That's right. But the politicians say things like... But if you're an evil rich person making $300,000, you're screwed by the Democrats. Oh, yeah. So it's just better to get it out of the way and not hope that something happens.

You know, just get it out of the way. Knock it out. And I get it. It's a straight psychology play. Yeah. Because he's made good money. He's been really smart. It's also painful cutting a check for $177,000, too.

Well, it's like I have a 0% interest loan on my car. You know, I don't, but I'm saying people call that question. Why would I pay that off? Because it's not going to be 0% when you're done. If you keep screwing around with this, you're going to end up getting hammered one way or another with these people. And, oh, by the way, it's not 0% because the only reason you get 0% on the car lot is if you pay full sticker price, and only idiots do that. You never pay full sticker price for a car, ever, unless you're trying to get a 0% loan. So by translation, it's not 0% because you paid a premium for the car.

Back that out as your interest rate. This is how things work in the real world, y'all. Okay, so, you know, it's like, you know, I think if I could just refinance my credit cards and get them from 18 down to 14, I could really be able to break through this thing. Sure, 4% on $10,000 is $400. You can't buy a biscuit, dude, for the amount of math gyration you're screwing around with. It's just, and that's, if you back it down into real nominal dollars, folks, when you're looking at these things like we did with him. Like James, because James is a very smart guy, obviously. And dumb people don't make $300 usually. And so, usually. But, yeah, I mean, he's, and if you're not careful, you get in your own way.

You step on yourself. So, pay it off is what I'd do today. By close of business, I'd be debt free. That's what I would do if I woke up of business, I'd be debt free. That's what I would do if I woke up in your shoes. This is the Ramsey Show. Ever wonder how to save more money or pay off debt fast? What about the right way to invest? Listen, I've been there asking the same questions with no idea where to turn for answers. But here's the good news. You don't have to keep searching for answers.

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Get started today with a free trial of Ramsey Plus at RamseySolutions.com slash Ramsey Plus. That's RamseySolutions.com slash Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Our question of the day comes from blinds.com. They have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. It means even if you mismeasure or you pick the wrong color, I've done these things, they'll remake your window blinds for free. This is a great company.

You get free samples, free shipping, and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more. Blinds.com. Use the promo code RAMSY to get the best deal. Today's question comes from Sam in Texas. I'm a school teacher, and my wife and I are on Baby Step 2. I'm very dissatisfied with my teaching environment, and I'm looking to get out of the profession.

I feel called to go into ministry, but I am not willing to go into more debt to pay for it. Which is more important, paying off debt or getting out of a toxic environment? Well, Sam, that's a false choice. You can get out of debt and get out of baby step two and keep walking the baby steps and also get out of a toxic environment. But the way you do it is the key. So I think sometimes when people feel as though they are in a toxic environment, and toxic environment is one of those general terms here. We have to look at, am I in an abusive situation where I am emotionally very, very unhealthy and unstable or physically?

Outside of that, it's one of those situations when you are in debt and you are walking out the baby steps. We have to change that mindset sometimes and say, okay, until I can get out of this toxic teaching environment into a better teaching environment or into a day job that will allow me to get out of debt and then save up the money for any qualification necessary to move into ministry, then I'm going to put up with it. And so it's not an either or. Continue to pay off debt.

Do not, for any reason, put off the baby steps because you're not happy in your work. What we want to look at is, why am I unhappy? And I have many teachers, Dave, that will call the Ken Coleman Show, and when I dig into it, we find that it's not necessarily the teaching, it's the particular environment. So if we can get in a healthier environment, great. But until you're able to get qualified for ministry, you've got to work the day job. You've got to work the baby steps. And then ministry is still going to be there.

The ability to get qualified to do ministry will still be there. And even though your heart longs to get there, there are times where we do what we have to do to be able to do what we want to do later. It's not an either-or. I'd be willing to bet that part of sam's calling to ministry is teaching i absolutely agree he's going to teach in a church environment or a ministry he's not he's not burned out on teaching no he's just looking for a different way to be a teacher the paperwork the bureaucracy the lack of a control in the classroom i hear this the helicopter parents oh cray cray parents you're

driving teachers out of the classroom because you're bozos wacky curriculum is another lack of discipline in the schools dadgum inmates are running the asylum that's right that's exactly teachers want to leave i don't blame you i don't blame you in those situations. I get it. So here's what you do. The emotion has built up. You can read it between the lines. It's seeping in here. The word choice, the word order, everything in there says I'm really over this.

Yeah, ready to walk. Yeah, and you got to hold back on that and say I'm going to do this in a wise and mature way, unless you have some kind of an ethical situation that you're calling toxic. I will wager to say what you have is a highly unpleasant environment. I'm not sure toxic is not – It's an overused word these days. Everything's toxic to something somebody doesn't like anymore. Right. I don't like it.

That bubble gum's toxic. You know, I don't like this. I don't like anything. It's toxic. It's toxic. And that's the second time you and I've heard in two weeks toxic work environment when I question whether the actual is really toxic rather than just highly unpleasant. That's right. Well, he says right here, I'm very dissatisfied with my teaching environment.

Yeah. And, you know, and then it's toxic later but the teaching i mean your boss is a jerk that i don't know if you call that i don't know if i call that toxic no it's not it's it's undesirable yes and i know am i going to quit dadgum right yeah eventually as soon as i can find a place to go that's right we want to step into something else so it might be a two-step procedure you might step into a different different teaching role so you can finish up getting out of debt and work on your ministry creds, whatever credentials are required in your particular denomination. Some denominations don't have required credentials. You just have to declare yourself, I are a preacher.

And then you are one. And that's other denominations are very strict about a doctorate and other things in theology. Obviously training is never a bad thing, theology included. But it is not table stakes unless you've chosen a particular denomination that says it is. That's correct. I know I've got friends of mine that went into ministry, Dave. They went into a non-pastoral where they didn't have to have the certain MDiv or whatever would be for preaching and ordained and all that, but they got in and they were on a church staff, and then

the church actually paid for some of their education. Churches will do that, and it's not a guarantee. It's not something you walk around asking for, but there are ways to get there. And I think what happens when someone is really unhappy, you start to go, oh! Is this a case where you use the proximity principle, too? Yeah, absolutely. While you're teaching, you go ahead and start being an irreplaceable lay person at a local congregation to the point they hire you in? That's right.

Hey, I'll start teaching a new class. I'll teach two new classes. I know four different church administrators that are in the administration side of ministry that came out of corporate America, and the first thing they did before they became full-time staff members was they were virtually full-time lay volunteers handling all this stuff. And the church goes, we can't do it without these guys. And then they go, look, I'm going to tell Target or whoever, bye-bye. I'm not going to work for them anymore.

I'm going to go work for the church. And so they made a transition that way by getting in proximity. That's exactly right. And that's how we build that bridge to where we move the undesirable work environment and we replace it. By the way, we never miss a paycheck. We never miss a debt snowball payment. That's how you do it.

But sometimes it's the stress. I don't think I can do it anymore. Yes, you can. It may be that you need to fix the environment. But it's easier to do it if you can see the end of the tunnel. No question. You go, I'm going to take these three steps and then I'll be out of here versus I feel trapped here. That's exactly right.

Trapped here adds stress. That's right. And in this situation, he's going, I've got to go to school to get into ministry. No, not necessarily. Not to necessarily get in and make those connections. Then the additional schooling, well, we're going to do that when we can cash flow it. Yeah, good stuff. Linda's in Anaheim, California.

Hi, Linda. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hello, Mr. Ramsey. Thank you so much for taking my call. It is a true honor to speak with you today. You too. I am happy to report I am an everyday millionaire effective March of this year. Way to go. I'm very happy to share that with you. I'm six payments away from finishing off the mortgage

and it's a true blessing. Wow. Yes, thank you, thank you. The reason why I'm calling is I need some advice. I am soon parting ways with an ex-business be a business partner, ex-business partner. And we have an LLC. We have an investment property in a different state that she, that I propose to sell. She wishes to buy me out. So my question is, what is the fair, I want to be, you know, first and foremost fair. What is the, how do I calculate my share of this? Do you, you know, is it the appraised value minus the loan divided by two no or is it you wouldn't net that no you would be the appraised

value minus about 15 for expenses if you sold it through a real estate agent you'd have closing costs and other things and so i would take 85 of appraisal minus the loan divided by two. Okay. That's what I figured. I wanted to be fair on that. That's very fair, because that's about all you would net. By the way, 15% might be a little rich on expenses, but you're also not going to get asking price usually.

In this market, you might get more than asking price, depending on what it is. But most real estate deals don't sell for asking price over the scope of your life. So, like, I've got that actually in our estate plan. If one of our kids wants to buy, we've got a bunch of real estate. If one of the kids wants to buy one of the other ones out and they want to sell out, they need to do it at 85% of appraisal. Because that covers all the expenses and then it's clear. You know, if we turned it into money, that's all it would be.

By the time you negotiate down and you pay some expenses to sell it, that's all the net money is going to be there. So that's the calculation I use. This is the Ramsey Show. We'll be right back. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, David and Pam are with us. Hey, guys. How are you? Hey, Dave. Great. Welcome, welcome.

Where do you guys live? Pennsylvania. All right. Cool. What part of Pennsylvania? Wellsville, Pennsylvania. All right. What's that near?

South of Harrisburg. Harrisburg area. Okay, cool. Well, welcome to Nashville. Good to have you. And all the way down here to do a debt-free scream. How much have you paid off? We've paid off $178,000 in 22 months. Good for you guys. Well done. And your range of income during that time? We started at $220,000 and ended at $229,000. Wow. What do y'all do for a living? I'm an executive director at a long-term care facility.

And I'm a nurse practitioner. Awesome. Two great careers. Well done. What kind of debt was this? $178,000. Paid off the house. Oh, look at the weird people.

Awesomeness. How old are you guys? I'm 55. I'll soon be 54. There you go. Good. Very good. And a paid-for house.

Right. Whoop, whoop, whoop. What's the house worth? $380,000 to $400,000. Wow. How fun is that? It's great. When did you pay it off?

What day? April 9th. So actually, today would be the first day we didn't have to write a mortgage check. How's it feel? Great. Awesome. I think it's still sort of settling in. It a little surreal isn't it yes oh very cool well congratulations so you decided to get after that mortgage two years ago you did what what got you guys on fire well i think it started when uh we were church and they were advertising for a financial piece

they were going to teach and i never heard of the program before. I'd never heard of your name. And I asked Pam, I said, well, you know, what's Dave Ramsey? What's this program about? And she says, I think it's something to do with budgeting. We thought, well, we don't have a problem with budgeting. We pay our bills on time. Sure. So we didn't think much of it.

We didn't sign up for the course. And six days later, I was at work having lunch with some colleagues. And someone at the table, she said that, you know, she's a nurse anesthetist, her husband's a surgeon. She said, you know, we make really good money, but we're broke. So I've been reading this book, Total Money Mocha by Dave Ramsey. I thought, well, that's my son. I've heard your name twice in a seven-day period.

So I went home and looked up the baby steps, read through those. And to me, it made sense. And I was telling Pam at the time and we watched some debt-free screens we watched some of the uh podcast and uh i tell you just really it's like we need to do this i'm not sure why we weren't uh doing this you know decades ago yeah yeah well you make great money and so yeah but you weren't broke broke i mean you weren't not like your friend but but you uh but you did, I can knock off the house. This is doable. Yes. Yeah. It's kind of that light bulb moment a little bit. Did you end up going

through financial peace after all? We did it later just online with ourselves. We were actually on baby step three when we first found out about you. And so immediately got on that. We got set up with a budget and started actually, I guess you had mentioned, you get a raise when you actually start getting rid of things you don't really need in your budget. We got rid of DirecTV. We took that money and put it towards the house. I had a whole life insurance policy. We got rid of that. We got rid of the credit cards and met up with a smart investor pro, Scott Robb out of York, PA, who had a 403B. He called everything in.

Yeah. And, you know, initially we thought, you know, we looked at the numbers. It's like, you know, I think we could pay this off in three years. And you mentioned it in your show before where you'll say something like, you know, I think you'll pay, you know, 24 months. But I think if you really get on fire, you can do it less than that. And we just started putting everything into it. And the pandemic helped it somewhat because we didn't eat out for like a year yeah um and we took all that extra money and yes we pretty much in sylvania so that's uh we just put everything towards the house

wow did you work extra hours did you guys double down there or just really tighten everything? She worked a lot of extra hours, but she salaried so. With the pandemic and health care and all. Right, of course. Both of you had, I mean, nursing home, wow, what a stressful year. It's been a bad year. And nurse practitioner as well. I mean, stressful year. You just said practitioner?

Yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so both of you were in the, I mean, you're on the firing lines for sure. Wow. And still just said, okay, we're knocking this out. I like it. So good, you guys. Well done.

You're rock stars, man. Such heroes. I'm so proud of you. Well done. Well done. So what advice do you have to that 52-year-old dink professional couple out there, double income, no kids, or no kids at home anyway? And they just need to lean in and do it i mean i mean what what what what is the steps what are the main things to get out of that i think work as a team you have to be a team you have to set a goal and just write a plan and go for it yeah and i think um one of the things that

just through the years, you know, it's like, how much do you invest? You know, am I going to be ready for retirement? And it kind of gave us that reassurance when we actually finally linked up with a smart investor pro to look at where we're at, what we need to do to, you know, for our plans for retirement, you know, how to switch things from traditional IRA over to Roth,

doing all those things to kind of now to plan for the future. You dial it in. Every little thing. Dial every knob. Yeah. And with no payments at all, I mean, and a decade out at least until retirement, your choice, of course. But, I mean, you're going to be multimillionaires. That's so cool.

Because, I mean, this great income and not a payment in the world. Yeah. I love it. Well done. Well done. Well done. So who were your biggest cheerleaders? One another, for sure.

And our daughters. We have two granddaughters. And our son-in-laws. And we have seven wonderful grandchildren. Hey! There they are. And that was part of our why. That's our son-in-laws, and we have seven wonderful grandchildren. There they are. And that was part of our why. That's our why.

Not just paying everything off, but, you know, that we could increase our giving, increase our investing, and those sorts of things. But also, you know, what can we do? We talked about all the time, you know, we want to help out with the grandkids' schooling and things like that. So now we're in a position where we can do those things. Yeah, you can just write a check. It's not a thing. I feel so good. I'm so proud of you guys.

Well done, well done. Excellent, excellent stuff. Yeah, you know, I'm hearing a little bit of legacy. I'm hearing that obviously for the grandkids, everybody gets that. But I'm just curious, giving outside of the family, do you guys have been able to have those dream conversations and some things, some fingerprints you guys can leave behind? Not

yet. This is our first month where we actually have the extra income, so to speak, because there's not a mortgage, other than tithing, which is what we do now. We do give to missions. That's true. But other than that, we haven't really come up with

what we want to do. What's the first big other than that, we haven't really come up with what we want to do. What's the first big thing you're going to buy to celebrate? Probably a car for her. She has 300,000 miles and had to go to AutoZone this morning

and get some parts to get us back to PA. That's awesome. Yeah, you need to buy her a car. You need to buy the woman a car. As soon as you get back, just write a check and get her a nice car.

I love it. Well done, you guys. If you live like no one else, later you get back, just write a check and get her a nice car, dadgummit. I love it. Well done, you guys. If you live like no one else, later you get to live and give like no one else. I'm so proud of you guys. All right, it's David and Pam from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania area. $178,000 paid off, 22 months, making $220,000 to $229,000. Count it down.

Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt-free! Yeah! Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! I love it! Man, that is awesomeness right there. How powerful.

Powerful. And David's showing off a little voice there. He went up a couple octaves. He showed some real baritone there. I don't know if he sings at church or not, but that was better than a scream, man. Way to go. It's just so fun to see that, isn't it? They're just so light and so exciting to see what they're going to be able to do as a couple.

They've got so much legacy to build. So fun. Yeah. And here's the thing. Maybe you don't pay off your house in 22 months. Maybe you do it in eight years because maybe you don't make $220,000. But your house will still be paid off when you do that. Yeah.

And so you can still take from this debt-free scream that sense of freedom and peace that you felt on them. You're right. It's a sense of they're light. They seem light, don't they? Yes, very much so. Versus heavy. Yeah. There's no dark cloud.

Today is the first day without the payment. No house. That's crazy fun. Payment. No house payment. What if you did that? Why don't you do that? I think you should do that. Why don't you do that? I think you should do that. No house payment. This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you. Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

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Text INSURANCE to 33789. Patty is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi, Patty. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hello, Mr. Ramsey. How are you doing today? Better than I deserve. What's up? So, I have a What Would Dave Do question for you. Our family is on baby step number seven.

We paid off our home late last year. Excellent. And the plan was to buy an investment property this year. But as you know, the real estate market is crazy hot right now and people are paying thousands of dollars over asking. So we are wondering if we should continue investing in mutual funds for now until the market cools down or should we jump onto the bandwagon now because the prices are only going to go up for the next few years? Yeah. I do not buy real estate unless I buy it at a good deal,

and a good deal means considerably less than market value, period. Yeah. I just don't. There are no good deals right now. Well, that's not quite true, but it's really close to true. It's very, very difficult, nigh impossible to find one. And so, no, I would not write a check for more than an appraisal to buy a piece of real estate as an investment, for sure. So what I would end up doing were I in your shoes is I would just park that money.

And I park mine in just an S&P 500 fund, an index fund. It's going to follow the market exactly. Whatever the stock market does is what it's going to do. And then when I decide to buy a piece of real estate, I just use the money in that fund. That's my little real estate savings fund. Yeah. Now, and so what that does is it doesn't prohibit you from continuing to look. You just don't buy unless you found something.

And we all know it's going to be very difficult to find something right now. It's not like you're going to find something every week at a good deal. It's very difficult. So if you want to just set yourself on the sidelines, because too dead gum much work to find a deal right now, I don't blame you. That's fine. And when the market softens up a little, that's fine. Or if somebody just put out a feeler with several real estate agents,

look, if you get somebody that's in trouble and you run across something, I can write a check and we can close in 24 hours. If you find that somebody's in a pinch and they need to get out, but I will not be doing that for anything except for a bargain. Okay. And just put your couple real estate agents on notice, and they can kind of be watching for you. And if they see something, a lot of them don't necessarily – they see deals they don't have the money to buy.

And so if they got somebody like you in their back pocket, they can pick up the phone and call you. And that's a way to not be completely sidelined. I mean, you don't have to just declare the market completely impossible. You can declare it very difficult. Right. And that's really what it is i'm not out shopping for real estate right now for two reasons one is the market's too difficult it's not worth the effort two is we're in the process of developing the piece of ground that this that ramsey's on and we're getting ready to break ground on a conference center

that's 35 million dollars and that's going to take all of my real estate investment money. So I can't be out buying other property right now. Yeah, these pieces of concrete I'm sticking on this piece of land out here are pretty serious. But that's, you know, so in other words, we're developing property, but for business purposes as well as real estate investment purposes. Hayden is with us. Hayden's in Lynchburg, Virginia, no less. Hey, Hayden, how are you? Good, Dave.

How are you doing? Great. How can Ken and I help? So I'm 15 years old, and, you know, it's about time for me just to start considering, you know, what I can do with my life. And I feel like I'm being called into ministry, but I don't want to end up going to school and having a bunch of college debt and not being able to afford to live comfortably. So I'm wondering if I should maybe go into a trade. I'm good at working with my hands,

so go into a trade, save the money, and then go to school for ministry after I have the money saved up. Yeah, certainly not a bad plan, Hayden. But at 15, I'm just curious how much time you spent with people that are in ministry. Have you talked to other men that are in ministry in different ministry positions? Not really. Of course, I'm very involved in church. I love going. But I haven't really spent a lot of time speaking to anybody that's in ministry.

Good. Let me ask you this. Do you have a vision right now, and how clear is it? What does that ministry position look like? I know you're only 15, but fast forward 10 years. What are you doing? Well, I would like to be out of college and be either associate pastor or youth pastor at a church. Sure.

So here's what I want you to do. You're only 15, and that's great that you have a real sense of calling or at least a tugging towards ministry. So what you want to do is if you go to church, and I'm assuming you do, you want to spend some time with coffee with your youth pastor. Have him connect you with other pastors in the area and really get an understanding of what all is involved day to day. And I think one of two things is going to happen. As you spend more time really talking about what does a life in ministry look like,

and you can ask questions, if they'll tell you, about what a salary range looks like, your heart is going to either say yes or no to that. But if you are feeling this tug towards ministering, the only thing that's concerning you is money, then that's something that you're going to have to really look at because I'm just going to tell you, moving into ministry for money, that's never going to satisfy you. And you're 15, and that's okay.

So I love that you're thinking about it. But that's what I want you to do. Really see what your heart's telling you. Would you get really clear on what a full-time ministry position consists of? And I'm talking to ask these pastors, what's your worst day like? What's the hardest part about ministry? What do you love the most about ministry? You need to know that.

Now, let me address your money question. I absolutely have no problem. If you can make good money in the trades, and you come out of high school, and I'd start looking for some jobs in the summer working for the trades. They need help like crazy. And a sharp 15-year-old who can do the job can make good money. But I love that plan of going in

and using your talent in the trades to make some really good money to pay for college and seminary. I absolutely love that plan, because you can cash flow your way through it. Yeah, I already have about $3,500 in an investment account and mutual funds. So, you know, I'm trying to build that up, you know, hopefully over the summer. Good.

Like you said, I have some connections to people who own their own construction company. So maybe getting out there, throwing a bunch of money into that mutual fund and hopefully building that up. Yeah, absolutely. And again, I'm fine with a gap year. Between the next couple years and a gap year, how much money can you make in the trades? You can make really, really good money. I love that.

Anthony O'Neill wrote a book called Debt-Free Degree, and you can actually do this. You don't have to go into debt at all. So don't assume at 15, well, I don't want to go into debt. Great. But make that a conviction statement, not a, well, I really don't want to have to. You do not have to go into debt to go to school, to go into ministry. I do not know what the percentage of youth pastors in America

that have theological degrees, seminary degrees are, but I would guess it to be well below 50%. That's correct. Yeah, four-year degree. I would guess it to be well below 50%. That's correct. Yeah, four-year degree. I would guess. Again, that would depend on your denominational background and which area, which kind of church you want to go into and so forth and how you're serving.

And, you know, so there's nothing to say. And by the way, the average church size in america is 85 and the typical pastor in america in is bivocational meaning they have a trade job and they're ministering on the weekends so you can actually move in that direction too um if you wanted to as a possible way to flesh this out and over time you're going to be able to make the determination whether this is a call to ministry or just you are in love with Jesus and you want to help people meet him.

And by the way, they can be the same thing and they can be done in a whole lot of different settings. So whether it's a call to full-time vocational ministry, it may or may not be there. You'll see as you get a little bit. I'm glad that you're being called that way. This is the Ramsey show. Hey, it's Kelly associate producer and phone screener for the Ramsey show.

If you would like to do your debt free scream live on the show, make sure you visit the Ramsey show.com and register. We would love for you to come to Nashville and tell Dave your story.