The Ramsey Show - App - I’m Begging You Not To Do This (Hour 2)

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and host of the Dr. John Deloney Show on the Ramsey Networks. He's my co-host today. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Dave is with us in Cincinnati. Hi, Dave. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi, Dave and John. I'm a longtime listener, and it's an honor to talk to both of you guys today. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can we help? I am at this season of life. I'm looking at 63 years old and looking at retiring here in the next couple of months. And I'm doing a global assessment of my finances.

I'm currently, after slugging it out for all my career, I'm currently under management, professional management with one of the big name outfits. They're managing about $5.6 million at a 1% fee. And when I look at the next 25 years, as I begin retirement, that comes up to a substantial amount of future fees that I'd be looking at probably, you know, in excess of 1.4 million in fees, not including the time value of money, and was wondering how does somebody like me, who needs about $75,000 a year to pay my bills, if I wanted to become self-managed or go into some kind of a flat fee management scheme, how does one depart from being fully managed and look at making a serious transition into becoming either semi-managed or self-managed?

And is that even a wise thing to consider, you know, at this point in the game for me? Yeah, I think it's a wise thing to consider. And I think you may be able to find that other firms, 1% is fairly standard, but at your level with $5 million under management, it should have started to be, the fee should have been on a gradient. It shouldn't stay at 1%. And so you might want to shop and, say, go to one of our SmartVestor pros. A lot of those use a 1% management fee program,

but ask them if any of them have a gradient based on scale. Because at some point, you know, you start asking the question, if I'm going to buy a series of mutual funds and I'm never going to touch them, or almost never touch them, I'm not sure exactly why I'm under management at the point that i'm 5.6 million now if you're 560 000 you should stay there because you probably need the guidance and you probably need the other stuff but you've proven to be an excellent investor someone who sticks it out doesn't jump ship every time there's bad news on the nightly news report which is every night um there's a reason to get out because the world is coming to an end and you

didn't fall for any of that and so you know you've stuck with it and done a great job investing congratulations so yeah i mean i would investigate some other structures out there i don't think there's anything i don't think you're being and you didn't present it this way uh but i'll say it out loud i don't think you're being ripped, but is there a more efficient way to handle it with this much money? Possibly, yeah. Maybe there's a portion of it you leave under management if you like these guys, and there's a portion you pull and say, I'm going to just put this in these six mutual funds and I'm going to forget it.

And, you know, we'll look at it once a year, you know. And so the vast majority of the SmartVestor Pros that we endorse and the people in the industry have moved to the 1% model under the new fiduciary rules that are out. It puts them at too much risk to do it the other way. I don't have my personal under that. With my SmartVestor Pro, I've just my personal under that, uh, with my smart investor pro, I've just got it under a, I mean, I buy your shares and they get paid and that's all. And then it sits there. And so they get paid on the front and they're done. Um, but, uh, but most of those guys have moved all of their client base into a 1%. So I'm not shocked to hear you're there,

but yeah, I think you're, I think you're asking good questions, and you're asking them with the right kind of heart. And so this is a good time where you're making some assessments, and I'd go to the firm you're with and say, you know, based on the fact I'm over the $5 million mark, is there not some gradient on this fee that maybe you all forgot to apply? Hello, wink, wink. Or talk to the SmartV mr pros and see if any of them do i don't know if that's out there but i know for instance if you're uh have a certain

amount with a certain mutual fund they no longer charge any fees there's break points with the mutual fund companies to where there's no fees charged no commissions charged and so on and so and you're definitely at those break points so most of them go most of it goes away at about a million dollars with them so yeah i think i'd ask the question um of your current folks unless you're dissatisfied with them and then there's no need to ask the question and i'd check smart investor pro at ramsey solutions.com and talk to a couple of those guys and gals and see if they have anything to offer and maybe you do a portion of it again and you take a portion of it and self-manage all self-manages is you're not gonna screw with it that's that's the trick the problem people have when they

self-manage at the beginning of their investing lives is they jump on and off and if you jump on and off the roller coaster that's who gets hurt ride the dadgum ride and you'll be okay these people you know and you need somebody to talk when you're early in the game emotionally you need someone to talk you off the ledge and so it's worth every penny and generally they they earn their one percent other ways as well so um you know it's it's not a bad plan what's the fiduciary responsibility what is that what's that shift well um under the obama administration they push this stuff through um and it's it's bogus in my mind but it's still become the regs um that uh fiduciary technically means that you do,

if I'm a fiduciary for your money, I do what is best for you, not what's best for me. That's what fiduciary technically means. And you could be a fiduciary regardless of how you're paid. You just have to do what's right for the customer, not what's right for your home pocketbook. You know, look out for the customer first. So a real estate agent that gets paid a commission is technically a fiduciary but they have a conflict of interest

because they're getting paid a commission so in the investing world the obama administration pushed these regs through that said that anyone who's paid a commission is not a fiduciary but if you're paid a one if you so if you're paid a commission you know five and three quarter percent on a mutual fund, that's a straight commission on the A share, and then that's it. You never get paid again, but they manage your money for you, and that's how the old smart investor pros all ran it back in the day. But if you do that now, you're liable if they want to sue you for something.

If you want to get rid of the liability, if you're one of the investment brokers, you put all the customers in a one percent and you call yourself a fiduciary were there instances of individual investors um who funneled their clients into these packages that had bigger returns for them that might not have been the best product or what was the... Well, that was always the auspices that no one who's paid a commission can do the right thing for the customer.

That's the absurdity. But that's stupid because... That's absurd. If I'm getting paid a commission, I want to continue to do right by you so I can keep your business. Yeah, but they... You know, again, it's the Obama administration

and it was just... It was bullcrap. Yeah. It was supposedly in the name of the consumer, but it really... Well, now the consumer's going to lose more money over the long haul. Hello. That's how that works. Wow. Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

So they actually... We're helping the consumer. We're going to make sure that they get charged more. That's really what it came down to. So, yeah, and that's what Dave is discovering right here. Exactly. This is The Ramsey Show. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Thanks for joining us. We could use your help. If you want to help us, uh, we would appreciate it. You can help us simply by subscribing to the show. Click subscribe. If you're a YouTube person, if you click follow,

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We know you're out there sharing and leaving those five-star reviews. All that stuff helps everything in these algorithms, and we appreciate it. Cesar is in Mobile, Alabama. Hi, Cesar. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hello, Dave. this is caesar i wanted to ask you guys if i want to buy an investment property with my uncle who's on disability i currently already own a home and i got that house for 156 000 at 6.25% APR. My mortgage on that is about 1200. Um, I mean, $1,200 per month. I have two tenants that live there, so they're paying off my mortgage. I have about $13,000

in my savings account and I have no car payment and I'm giving about 10% of my payment into a Roth RIA. Okay. And what do you make? I make about $4,000. And where do you live? If you rented out the house, do you live in the house with a roommate? Yeah, I live in the house. It's like a roommate sort of deal.

How old are you? I live with my girlfriend. I'm 20 years old. Okay. And why do you want to buy an investment property? So I want to buy an investment property because I saw that, you know, being a landlord is really not as hard as I thought it was. I have the credit for it, and I believe that, you know, that's what I want to do with my life, just buying homes, either flipping them and renting them out.

You know, I have a home, actually, that is $300,000. I will, me and my uncle, um, who are splitting everything in the home, um, is about, we're going to split everything, the down payment, like absolutely everything in the home. It's the house is worth about $300,000. We're getting about 7% APR and we will be doing an FHA loan on that. The thing is that my uncle doesn't live in the state so I would be in charge of maintaining the property and we would go essentially half C's on the... And you need your uncle involved. Why? So I need my uncle involved because because I just got this loan from this VA loan about six months ago, and they're not letting me get another mortgage payment. Okay.

Because you're too broke to buy a property. That's why they're not letting you do that. Okay. So the bank is telling you not to do this and you're figured out the way to beat that is to use an uncle and do it anyway yes yes sir okay um well caesar i've got just a moment with you to try to offset all of the bullcrap you've been reading on the internet about real estate and I don't know if I'll be able to accomplish the goal of offsetting all of that.

I will tell you that when I graduated from college at 22 years old I bought my first property by the time I was 26. I had over four million dollars worth of real estate with a million dollar net worth doing exactly what you're talking about. I had co-signers. I had banks that I had talked into loaning me money. I was flipping houses and, um, with no money and you got no money and I was buying property basically with no money. And so I was leveraged up to my eyeballs.

One of the banks got scared and got sold to another bank and they looked down and said, there's a kid in his 20s that owes us over a million dollars and they called the notes on the flips that I was doing. They were 90-day notes and they called the flip notes. It was a million two. I had 90 days to come up with a million two i spent the next two and a half years of my life losing everything i owned getting sued getting foreclosed

on and finally with a brand new baby a toddler and a marriage hanging on by a thread i was bankrupt that's my story okay that guy that did that now owns me several hundred million dollars worth of real estate i recovered in my 30s and 40s and 50s i'm sitting in one building that's worth over 600 million right now and it's debt free okay so just to give you an idea that this can be done but i never borrowed money again, and I never took on another cosigner because those two things caused me tremendous trouble. And everybody that I knew that did the type of real estate deals that you're doing, all of my friends in that business were broke too.

The only ones that survived were the ones that got out of debt. And you, sir, are walking straight into a razor. And I'm going to beg you not to buy this house. I want you to own real estate, and I want you to be good at it later. I want you to take your time and pay cash for the next little property you buy. And I think between now and 30 years old, you probably are going to have several properties that you could pay cash for without your uncle and without 7% APR. And just because you can manage three roommates doesn't mean you know how to manage tenants yet. That's a bit of a leap. They're a little different. And I've managed tenants for 40 years. Believe me,

I know. And the idea that the tenant is paying for your house is internet crap because you're paying for your house and you've got some tenants. You will find out that the tenant is not paying for your house when one of them doesn't pay. That's when you'll discover that real estate is not passive at all. It's very active. So I love real estate. I own a bunch of it. I'd love for you to own a bunch of it, but I'd also love for you to avoid a nightmare. And I don't know if there's any chance that I talked you out of it because you were completely in. It almost sounds like you've already done the deal and then call me back to bless it. And I'm not going to. If you did that

deal, I wish you didn't because you set yourself up for problems. You set your uncle up for problems. You set up relationships for problems. You're living on the edge and you don't even know it. You don't even feel it. You don't, you don't, you've not assessed the risk that you're under correctly. You've taken on way more risk than your heart is grasping plea or you're about to please don't just take your time every time i read the book the tortoise and the hare the tortoise wins so be the tortoise that's about all i got john yeah and again if that doesn't give you pause then nothing's going to give you a pause um you mentioned this um at the very end there this is a surefire way to

implode family relationships as well yeah because it's not going to work out it won't work out number one and the husband the uncle's on disability for god's sakes and he's in another state he's got and so when this doesn't work out to help his little nephew out but the uncle's brother his dad's gonna call and say you need to do this and grandmother's gonna call and mom's gonna call and now you're not gonna be able to go to thanksgiving you're not gonna be able to go to christmas everyone always enters into these things only considering the upside and nobody understands the risk profile man spend spend your life studying risk and that's where you'll man that's what that the fulcrum always has to has to equilibria i used to say it wrong it's got it there's always another side of the fulcrum let me say it that way

yeah and nobody takes that into consideration when you get starry-eyed, man. Yeah. Go take a cold shower, son. You got house fever. Yeah. Slow your butt down. That's what I would tell you. Yeah. You made the mistake of calling and asking for my opinion, which I'm 100% of the time going to give you.

I'm an expert on my opinion. And I love you. And so I'm going to tell you the truth. This is The Ramsey Show. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Buffalo, New York is next.

Hicks is on the line. Hi, Hicks. How are you? Hey, Jay. How's it going? Better than I deserve. What's up in your world? Dave, I got a question for you, Dave.

I hope you can help me out here. I've been trying to decide which way to go here. Okay, recently retired. I had a medical condition that forced me to retire. Had to take a cut in pay. I owe $90,000 on a $240,000 house. It'll be paid off in seven years. I own my car. I own my

truck. The question is this. Having some health issues, I'm thinking about moving. My wife's been helping me. And now she's pregnant. She needs help. I'm thinking about sending her out to her relatives in another state,

and I'm saying, well, if she go out there, who's going to help me? So I'm thinking about relocating, selling the house, and I'm trying to decide, should I keep the house, wait for her to get back in three to four months, sell the house, go out there, and I'm kind of stuck here because I'm trying to get help here, and if I don't... How old are you?

I am 64. And you have a baby on the way? Yes. Okay. How old is your wife? 37. Okay. Cool.

All right. And what's the nature of your health problem, sir? It has to do with muscle condition, rare disorder. They're trying to figure it out as they go along. Okay. So six months, eight months from today, where do you all want to be living with your new baby? Preferably in a house that we can afford.

This one, but I'm thinking about going to another state. Why? Thinking about just because there's relatives and help out there. Okay. So you've got family in another area, and that's attractive. What area is that? Out in California. other area and that's attractive what area is that uh out in california that's closer to uh i want to say riverside closer to riverside

well it's a wee bit different price market than buffalo new york brother uh yeah i figured that yeah i think the monthly storage rates are about 390 000 yeah uh yeah i don't i don't think if you want to do something affordable and your income was just cut and your health is failing and you have a brand new baby on the way probably the california real estate market is not going to be friendly to you my friend i'd be getting my kansas on hicks yeah i'd be looking at it yeah west texas that's right some some place that's affordable and um and or stay where you are you don't have friends and family there yeah i do feel like a lot of people busy yeah they're busy in california too what does that mean yeah that they're busy people don't want to help you uh they help us as they can yeah are you are you specific in your help request

uh yeah um i got some help and then i told them what's going on i've been uh with the doctors back and forth it came on so suddenly i really didn't have a chance to catch my breath too much i was uh uh they say it's rare and they don't see it that much and they're doing all these different things to try to help me. Does your wife work outside the home, sir? She did until she got further along in her pregnancy. Yeah, okay. Because it sounds like you all are going to need her income to come back after the baby comes.

Is that fair? Yep, that's exactly what we've been talking about. Exactly, yeah. So that's why I'm at, Dave. I don't have a magic wand. If you told me a bunch of friends and family were in an affordable market, I would be all for this. You're talking about moving to one of the more expensive areas in the world.

Okay. And so, you know, Riverside is just not cheap, man, and it's not, you know, your mind's going to be blown what it'll take to buy a house like you've got right now there. And so it's just not transferable. I think the help you would gain is going to be far offset by the increased cost. And I don't think it's going to be worth it. So if you have a different location with some family that is an affordable location, maybe the move makes sense. But I think you guys have got to continue to talk through where you want to be that you can afford to live and prosper with the current situation you find yourself in.

A new baby, 37-year-old wife that's working. You've got a muscular disorder of some kind. And you're trying to, you know, where do I want to be living in that situation for this next chapter of my life that I can afford? And I think if you make a visit out to the California market that you're talking about, I think you're going to discover quickly that that's not affordable to you with what you're describing to me. So I might be wrong.

You might. There may be something I don't know. So you could go look at it. It doesn't cost that much to go look. But I'm going to have a plan B. If we don't go there, what are we going to do? And then under that situation, I'll go look. But don't tell me you were forced to move to an area you can't afford

because you're not forced. You just got to make some different choices there in Buffalo. Man, I'm sorry. I wish I had a magic wand that could make all this go away, and I don't. There's not a good answer to that bad situation, folks. There's just some answers. We can just kind of walk with you and think with you while you're facing these things. But there's not a you know

there's not a simple thing you just go do that it's not this this is there's a lot going on here and all we can do is just sit here and be a sounding board with you and bounce those ideas back at you and see if they sound crazy when they come back at you crossing that yes and just a quick note if if you were reaching out and everyone sounds busy, everyone's got quote-unquote stuff going on, it doesn't work every time, but often people will send a text message to some friends and say, hey, I've got some health struggles or I've got some challenges. I'd love to get together for some coffee. Well, man, now people are wondering, well, who's on this text thread? How many people? It's like, I'm just going to wait. And then nobody responds. It's different when you say,

hey, Dave, I've been really struggling. Is there a chance that you and I can get together tomorrow at 10 o'clock? I'm going to get coffee. I'm buying. I'd love it if you met me there. That's a specific request that I want to meet with you. I want to talk to you. And people are much more likely to respond to that and to respond affirmatively, like I'll be there or I can't make that one, but I can do this date at noon. And so instead of just throwing these vague grenade balloons that just kind of loft out over, be specific, be at risk. Some people saying, I can't show up for you. Yeah got i i listen i need to ride the doctor tomorrow can you help me can you pick me up at seven o'clock yeah that's right i got

i got a doctor's appointment today can be specific yeah yeah that boom people will say yes or no yes or no that's right and by the way you got to be okay with her no if they're busy that's okay but at least that's right but you're more likely to get it i can't do that but i could but i can get you know cousin judy to Judy to come do it. I got $10. I got your Uber tomorrow. Great. I'll cover your Uber.

Yes, sir. That's it. That's it. That's the way you work it. Yeah, very specific in the thing. Because when I hear, I've got a friend in the hospital right this second. And when I'm, you know, I'm talking to her husband back and forth. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, what can we do to help?

How can we help you? I mean, how can we serve you? You want to share and make you dinner to share and make your dinner i mean can we come over do you want no no okay i start having to suggest and of course that's okay i don't mind that i'm not complaining but i'm saying that's a close friend if it's just this vague kind of yeah kind of out there and even then sometimes when it's kind of that vague i'll say me and sheila bringing dinner tomorrow we're going to be there at six o'clock if that doesn't work for you got to let me know yeah and then then sometimes they'll go all right thank god yeah and then sometimes they'll say well we got four other dinners tomorrow night's not a good day but i'm going to be specific that's exactly what sharon did

yeah that's exactly how that works good that's a good call out good call out so hicks the people that are busy around you you might get um more help if you're specific, is John's point, if you're there in Buffalo. This is The Ramsey Show. Thanks for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Patrick's in Fort Worth. Hi, Patrick.

How are you? I'm doing good, Dave. Good. How can I help? Hey, I've got a question. I've got a question. I've got a patent pending on a mobile application, and I'm wanting to raise funds to get my MVP off the ground, right?

And I've had a friend of mine offer, and, and offered to give me a loan to do this, but I've been listening to you since I was 12 years old. Um, lost everything last year in a divorce, literally everything. Um, and I'm wanting to go back up, but I don't want to give up my entire, my entire percentage of my company and getting with a traditional investor, and I really don't have access to traditional investors. So I'm just kind of curious because it's kind of hard to crowdfund

with a patent pending also. So I'm just kind of curious what you might have on that. Okay. So remind me again what the patent is on is on okay it's on a mobile application a mobile application like a phone application phone app like a an app for your phone and why do you have to have a patent for a phone app well it's just it's just something new that is uh well i mean it's a i mean you're going to put it in the apple store and you're going to put it in the google play store and people are going

to download it onto their phone right right so this is a new and novel idea that nobody has ever put into play before i mean you don't need a patent for that is it a copyright you don't need a patent for that no no he told me I couldn't copyright it, but basically it would make it to where somebody else couldn't redo that app. They couldn't make another, you know, because you can patent. I've started the process to patent a process in the app. Okay, so how much are you spending to get the patent pending? So that's already, I've already paid that.

Oh, okay, so you're done. I've already paid that. Okay, so why do you need money to launch something in the Apple Store? It doesn't cost anything. Well, in order to get the actual application built, the MVP, the minimum viable product, and to build that. Oh, you've not built the app yet? No. You're patent pending the idea or the technology?

No, the technology is not done. It's not. Okay, are you not a programmer? You're not an engineer? I'm not. Okay, are you not a programmer? You're not an engineer? I'm not. No, no. I've been a mom since I was 16 years old.

I bought my first business at 24. I bought and sold several different businesses. I mean, I've, but I lost everything last year, and I'm just starting over. Okay, so all you need is the engineering done. Right. You need a software engineer, right? Mm-hmm. So what's it going to cost to turn this idea into an app? The lowest quote I've got is around $24,000 to $35,000.

Okay. You know, we've built a bunch of apps here. We've got apps all in the store. I mean, I've put them up, taken them down. We've got a little thing called the EveryDollar app that we've got a lot more than that invested in, obviously, but we've also got, you know, tens of millions of people in it and all that.

But even out of the gate, we had more than that in it. So I'm just trying to think how we would do it, because I don't borrow money and I don't bring in outside investors. You know that. You said you've been listening. I don't want to give up. I wouldn't do it.

What I would do. I mean, he even told me he would give it to me at 5%, but I don't want to take a loan. No, don't take money from me for anything. No, what part of no? You've been listening to us. You knew I was going to tell you not to do any of this. What's your panic?

Like, what's the, you feel panicked? Are you about to get beat to market or something? If you hold a patent, can't you exhale and go earn $30,000? Well, the thing is, yes, I have probably eight to nine months left of the status. My lawyer, he wants to do a non-provisional, which is potentially going to be 20 years protected, right? My uncle was an engineer, not in mobile stuff, but that's how he made his money. He invented one of the largest crash compactors in the United States. I've run by the seat of my pants in business.

What do you, yeah, I know, I can um what what do you um do you have a job yeah i'm a truck driver so i've always i've got my cdl and i've i've bought and sold three different semi trucks but i lost i lost almost four hundred thousand dollars income last year during the divorce and i was paying three thousand dollars a month in child support and it just ate me alive um I did have $15,000 in debt in that but I okay let me stop you all right here's there's something in this situation that smells to high heaven of desperation like you you sound so desperate you called it an application when you're talking to us. And it's not, it's a phone app for God's sakes. This is not rocket search.

Right. And so, and you sound so in a hurry and so chaotic and so desperate. And all of those things tell me you're getting ready to do something really stupid. Because every time I get that sound in my voice, like a beagle chasing a rabbit, that's about the time I'm about to do something dumb. And I can hear it on you. I'm just being honest with you all right so what i would tell you what i would tell you to do is this i would tell you slow your butt down take a breath okay that's what i'm going to tell you to do and then if you want to proceed with this the only idea that comes to mind structurally on how to pull this off is to find a good software engineer and tell them you will pay them double their rate out of the proceeds

and so if this thing is really a big deal okay you know it's $24,000 worth of stuff. I'm going to pay you $48,000. The first 48,000 that we make on this, I'm going to pay you out and I'm going to pay you double and then they're done. And the problem is as soon as you'd get the thing up and here, here's what I'll teach you about apps. They're not one and done. You can't ship it and forget it. 100% of apps that go out that are successful are constantly being worked on and iterated. The negative thing about digital is you have to constantly work on it. The great thing about digital is you get to constantly make it better. So you're not frozen.

When I print a book, it's either good or bad. I'm stuck with it. It's on the shelf for the next 40 years. It's a printed book. When I put something out in the digital world, I can change it tomorrow and I can change it the next day and I can change it the next day and make it better as I go along, and I will.

And so the EveryDollar budgeting app does not even resemble the app that was launched under the name EveryDollar originally. It has iterated and upgraded, iterated and upgraded, iterated and upgraded almost every other week for years. And so your software engineering costs have just begun, my friend, if this is actually going to work and be successful your patent stuff is probably early and tremendous overkill um you know the number of times that people steal something on an apple store is just not that big it doesn't happen much except the chinese deal and stuff right and and duplicating it but mean, I'm talking about the number of times that someone just comes in and scarfs up an idea because you didn't have it patented.

So, you know, I'm pretty sure none of the budgeting apps out there that are the top budgeting apps are patented, just to give you an idea. And of course, here's the other thing. As soon as you patent it, you're going to iterate it and change it. So then you've got to update the dadgum page. Yeah, this is an – I don't know. Yeah, I do know.

I would slow down, breathe. If you want to involve a software engineer and pay them $1.5 or pay them $2.0, what they're worth, but they only get paid out of the proceeds, and if there are never any proceeds, they get nothing. If it never works, they put in their money for nothing. If they want to join the venture for some extra money, that might be a way to draw somebody in.

But the other thing you could do is you just could go make some money, like John said, and then just write somebody a check to have the first round of software engineering done. But be prepared. As soon as you start making a little money, you're going to spend most of that back into new software engineering because you're going to upgrade and iterate.

Upgrade and iterate. You do not ship it and forget it in the digital world, my friend. This is the Ramsey Show. Thank you. Bye.