The Ramsey Show - App - Is Higher Education Worth the Cost? (Hour 3)

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Kristina Ellis & Dr. John Delony answer your questions and discuss:   Getting momentum back after pausing the baby steps, "Is higher education worth the debt?", "I feel underpaid and not sure what the issue is", The mental health effects of student loans. Have a question for the show? Call 888-825-5225 Weekdays from 2-5pm ET Want a plan for your money? Find out where to start: https://bit.ly/3nInETX Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3GxiXm6 Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Pod's Moving and Storage Studio, it's The Ramsey Show, where America hangs out to have a conversation about your life and your money. I'm your host, Ramsey Personality, Christina Ellis, joined by my co-host, Ramsey Personality, and good friend, Dr. John Deloney. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. First up, we've got Christina calling from Salem, Oregon. Hey, Christina, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you guys for having me. Hey, thanks for calling. How can we help? Hey, my husband and I are on baby step two currently, and we have had to pause for about

two years now and just start paying back again. But we're kind of like feeling a lack of motivation here. Just need some tips to kind of like kick back into gear and get a little intense again. Tell us about the pause. What happened? So I had a baby last October or October 2021 who was stillborn.

I'm so sorry. Yeah. So we initially thought we could just go straight back and start paying off debt, you know, a couple of months after, but we decided to try for a baby again. So I currently have a four month old now who was also born October of 2022. And I just started work back again now, so we kind of like have just started after that whole like emotional roller coaster, kind of started getting back into gear again. Yeah. Did you ever spend some time just being sad, just grieving? um i feel like a little bit but getting pregnant pretty quickly after losing our first i kind of just put it all on hold what was your what was your first name um georgia georgia beautiful

beautiful my niece's name georgia it's beautiful um here's the thing about grief it It will, it'll catch up with you and it demands that you honor it. And this, that feeling of lack of motivation, another word is apathy. Another word is like your body's just kind of bringing everything down. There's not a lot of color. Like, why are we doing this? And that's often, it's often a tree that grows out of unacknowledged grief. And sometimes that can be as simple as you and your husband writing Georgia a letter. Tell her how much you miss her. Tell her about the new brother or sister that she's never going to get to meet and that you're sad and you think about her.

And it could be a small ceremony that youall have a year later or two years later or it can be as you go see a counselor and do some real trauma healing. What you just experienced the last 18 months of your life is really heavy, right? Yeah. And then probably the fear you felt rattling your body as you were getting closer to your due date with the baby you're holding right now, that was a scary time, wasn't it? Yeah, for sure. So your body's wearing all this stuff.

And then you look at it and you're like, all right, let's get gazelle intense. And it's like, how about you leave? Because we're not getting gazelle nothing. We're sitting right here on the couch. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot.

Y'all have been through hell and back. And sometimes it's important just to stop and acknowledge it. Christina, do you have a counselor? Not currently. We listen to John's show a lot. Oh, that's not always helpful, right? I would recommend, especially being in this season of being postpartum, having all this grief and trauma, walking through that with someone. Because there's just naturally for any mother who's just had a baby, there's a lot of hormones, there's a lot of things happening. And then you actually have a really huge trauma to sort through.

So I would want to do that with a professional who can really speak to where you are now and just the past, the past two years. That's a lot. So I'm going to, let's take that trauma and I'm going to move it over just a little bit. We're not going to knock it off the table. I'm just going to move it over just a little bit. Okay. When somebody tells me they don't feel motivated and they have, but they have some goals they want to reach. What I want to communicate to everybody listening is that motivation is a fleeting mistress. She comes and goes and comes and goes. And if I only worked out in the morning when I felt like it, I would not be very healthy. Okay. So I don't rely on motivation to do much of anything. I'm not always motivated to be a kind husband, but I'm still going to be kind. And I'm not always motivated to be a kind husband But i'm still going to be kind and i'm not always motivated to go had the other night when I was

For god, I ran by the store to get something for valentine's at a wild like i'm not motivated But i'm still going to do it because it's right And so when you and your husband decide hey, we're getting back on this wagon We're going for it. And I think I think now's a great time. Y'all need some little wins together I think waiting for motivation It isn't the right path. I think making some choices that we're going to be disciplined, whether we feel it or not, we're going to live like this. We're going to follow these baby steps to the letter. We're not going to deviate off them at all. You're going to wake up in two or

three months from a fog and you're going to realize y'all made some serious progress and then progress begets motivation. It gets exciting again. You realize you're going to realize you all made some serious progress and then progress begets motivation. It gets exciting again. You realize you're on an adventure and suddenly you get that extra gas that you didn't even know was in the tank. How does that sound? That sounds pretty good. Sounds like what we're going to have to do. How much debt do you guys have?

When we started, we had 102. We started in April of 2020, right after COVID basically started. And we paid off about $50,000 in a year. Wow. Way to go. So y'all know Gazelle Intense. Y'all know it. Yeah, we were really scorched earth.

And then throughout pregnancy and all that stuff, we kind of paid off little chunks here and there when we weren't saving for a baby, basically. So now we're at $43,000, I think. Okay. And what's your income? Last year, I believe it was $90,000. Okay. I feel so encouraged that you've done this before. This is not new to you. You're not at the very bottom of the mountain. And I think right now it feels like you're just stuck in a valley. And it's like, I think the more maybe you have a vision session with your husband, you kind of map out, you know, how long you think this is going to take alongside

getting counseling alongside doing all these steps. But but, you know, having a clear vision, I think this season just feels like the trenches. And I think if you see like in a year to a year and a half, we're going to be totally out of this. And by getting out of this debt, I'm going to feel more freedom to spend more time with my baby. Maybe you have a career, like whatever it is, it's like if there's a vision at the end of it, I think you'll feel like that naturally also produces some motivation. That's right. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to send you Financial Peace University, the updated version. And it's got all new videos. We reshot them all. They even let me and George do one. So we're going to send it to you. And I know y'all probably already been through it, but I want y'all to get re-energized again. Okay. So I want you and your husband to go through them again, watch them again, get that feeling back. Y'all have been scorched earth before. You did it. And you did 50,000 that time. You didn't even have that far to to go this time you got 43 and then you're holding this beautiful why as to why we're going to do this and you're going to look up in 18 months and this whole thing's going to be over okay i'm so proud of you man that's so please please take care of yourself too you got is that a promise

yep awesome thank you so so much for the call. We'll be right back. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Up next, we have Mackenzie calling from Chattanooga, Tennessee. Hey, Mackenzie, welcome to the show. Hey, y'all. How are y'all doing today? We're doing well. How can we help? Okay, so I'm going to be graduating in December with a degree in business administration with a major in management.

I have completely put myself through school, but have accumulated about $1,500 of educational debt, but that should be completely paid off in the summer. All that said, I'm pretty confident in my GPA and standing that I'm going to get accepted into MBA school. So I have kind of like two questions in one. Do you think it would be wise to pursue this higher education and do you think it's worth it? And also take out $20,000 to $25,000 if I'm debt-free. How old are you? 21. I'll let Christina answer this philosophically. I'll tell you one of the last universities I worked for actually moved the MBA program. You actually had to leave school and go work in the work world for a couple of years before you came back because a lot of these NBA theories and economic ideals make no sense. I mean,

you can pass the test out of a textbook, but there's no real world application. So I would ask you, why in the world would you, why do you feel like you need to get an NBA right now at 21 instead of getting out there in the business world and cutting your teeth and seeing how this whole thing actually works in real life? Well, I'm working right now in an office and I really enjoy it. But also, I think more so just the credentials of it and a resume builder. You know, it's kind of been pushed on me to go to MBA school from like, you know, professors. So, you know, it's just something I thought I needed to pursue. And I would tell you, professors, they all went and did that. And then they went and got their PhDs and they came back. And so that's their track. And I, and I

mean, I've got a bunch of graduate degrees too. What I'm telling you is you, you absolutely are not in a place where I can, I can fathom you needing that credential at this moment. If I'm hiring and I've hired, I can't count how many people I've hired in my career. I don't even know a lot. I would, man, I would much rather hire a 28 year old with a ton of experience than a 22 year old with an MBA. Okay. Okay. I've seen that a lot and I'm curious. Okay. So you said it's $20,000. Is that a year or for the whole program? That's for the whole program. It's completely online. And like I said, I would be like working simultaneously while going to school. So I would do that like at night. So is that $20,000 like, is that what you factored after your income?

Or is that like total cost of the program and you're going to have additional income? That is just the complete cost of the program itself. That's not factoring in what I'll make after graduation or anything like that. And how long is this program? About a year and a half. It's just like an executive MBA. So I'm just, I'm wondering, why can't you cash flow this? Well, you know, I have completely worked to put myself through school,

so I don't have like tons of savings built up. Right. So I, you know, every time it's time to pay my tuition, that takes the savings or something. So I haven't really built up a savings for it. And I also know myself, and it would be tough for me to go back to school once I've stopped. Right.

Okay, so 21. I don't buy that. You're a gangster, dude. You scratched and clawed your whole way through this. Here's what I think. I think you really feel insecure about yourself in the work world. And you feel like this is going to be like a cape of some sort or a shield of some sort against that insecurity. And what I'm here to promise you is it's going to elevate it.

It will make it exponential. Okay. But I'm also thinking, okay, so if it's $21,000 for the whole program, the program is a year and a half, that's about $7,000 a semester. Is that correct? I would think so. Yes, ma'am. I think you can make $7,000 a semester, especially if you're out getting experience, if you're working. You said this is a nighttime program, so you can work full-time. Yes. As soon as I graduate in December, I'll go full time. And I would probably start the program that same the following semester. Well, it's like I know that you have

been hustling to graduate with, you know, a small amount of debt, you know, you're gonna be able to pay it off by the summer, you're probably feeling a bit tired. And I think you kind of have two directions right now, you can go get a job, like john said, and and just start in the real world and then get your MBA in the future. Or, I mean, we're not talking about $40,000 a semester. We're talking about $7,000. And if you're getting a, you know, the average paying job after graduation, like you should, if you still live like a college student, be able to pay for this as you go. I didn't think about that. Is this a private school? Like, don't give me the name of the university, but is this a reputable program?

I've never heard of an executive MBA priced at $25,000. I would not say it's a very well-known school. Okay. A well-known MBA program. It's brand new. Is it even accredited yes it is i'm just telling you i oh man i'm gonna get myself i i go there do it yes i mean you you can definitely pay for this christine is right if you're gonna man i'm gonna get myself in all kind of trouble with everybody

if you're gonna get an nba i would rather see you have a bunch of work experience, have somebody at your job come in and tap you on the shoulder and say, we're going to pay for this thing and we want you to go to Yale or we want you to go to Duke or we want you to go to UT Knoxville. I want you to go to a really reputable program. We're going to help you pay on this. Or they come and say, you are leadership material and the only path forward for you here is an MBA. Here's an opportunity. And by that time, you're making enough money that you can just cash flow this thing. And it's going to be uncomfortable for a year, but you're going to make it work.

I can't wrap my head around to where it makes sense for you right now. That's good. It feels like it's a little bit, you know, a checkmark. Like you've been told by your professors that you need this checkmark in order to be more successful. And I just don't. It's not true. Right. And I'll tell you this. It's not true. Right. And I'll tell you this, go to grad school. Don't, and this is for everybody listening,

don't go to grad school for a check mark. Go to grad school to learn something that is going to help you. And whether it's taking care of people, whether it is learning a trade, whether you're going to like, you know, be a nurse practitioner and you're going back to your master's, whatever, or there's a direct ROI on it, go back to learn something. Don't go in it to just get a check mark, man, because it just doesn't pay off for itself in any ways. And I'm not even somebody who's an all,

like every degree has to ROI. I'm not even that guy. I'm more philosophical. I love higher ed. But man, it won't even pay off in your soul. You won't walk away thinking I learned something. You'll think I gave you $25,000, you gave me a certificate, and we high-fived, and then we moved on with our lives.

It's just not the exchange that you want. I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that. How does that feel to you? I get it. I really do. And honestly, it would be a really big stress just to go straight from college to grad school. So I enjoy my job.

I actually love my job right now, so that kind of gives me a little bit of relief to think about it. You know, I do have time, you know. You've got so much time. Hey, you know what I want you to practice for the next six months? Rest. You haven't done that in four or five or six or seven years. What if you just went to work and worked really really hard and you read books and you hung out with people and you what if you did that that would be amazing i love the joy in your voice and this is coming from you know a former

dean of higher education this is somebody who's been in the education world. And so it's like, we give you that permission. And you've got two people with graduate degrees. We've both been there. Okay. And we're both telling you, just take a break for a minute. I think you are going to get a graduate degree one day and I'm going to cheer you on. I want you to send us a graduation photo when you walk across that stage. I think that's in your future. I just doesn't, I can't make it make sense right now. If you're my sister or you're my close friend or you're a daughter of one of my buddies,

I would be telling you this exact same thing. Mackenzie, go forth in peace. Rest assured that you will be fine without the check mark. Hold on. I'm always telling 20-year-olds, don't rest. That's your season to grind like crazy. Yes. And also, I know I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth,

but I was reading between the lines here. This is a young woman who has clawed and scratched and worked like crazy to not owe any debt, and she has figured out a way to double major, get out of school. She got herself a job, and I want her to exhale for a minute because I want her to also learn how to be at peace because I've got, there's too many CEOs out there that know one, they know one speed and that's a thousand miles an hour and they're, they're falling over dead, right? And they're burning their teams out. And so I want people who know how to work really hard

and who know how to rest well too. We need both of those things in the work world right now. That's so good. We'll be right back. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Next up, we have Caleb calling from Mobile, Alabama. Hey, Caleb, welcome to the show. Hey, guys. How's it going? Hey, we're doing well. How are you? Doing great. Doing great. How can we help? Okay. So I had a bit of a question just thinking through and trying to self-assess a problem that I've seen in myself, and I kind of wanted y'all's input on it. Let's go. All right, so I've worked three different jobs.

I'm 23 years old. I worked a small job out of high school for a year, and then I worked three years for a tech company, and now I'm currently working for a construction company that I worked at for about a year and a half now. In all of these different positions, I found myself at different points through the job. I'm really excited when I start working for the new company, but then at some point along the path of that employment, whether it be something that happens with the job or just the amount of workload that I have, I start to feel resentment toward my boss and feel like I'm not getting valued or paid enough. And there's different things and different components of that

with each of the different jobs that I've worked. And I'm kind of just trying to self-assess, is that a problem that is with me that I'm seeing this, you know, through every single job that I've had? I'm finding that I have this these same feelings toward my employer. And I'm trying to like, is this something that I need to fix or is this actually something that's valid and justified? I just want to pause real quick and say at 23 years old, the fact that you have stopped and said there are all these issues and I'm going to stop and self-assess, I'm really proud of you, Caleb. Because a lot of people your age would be just projecting out,

it's my boss's fault. And they would just be pointing fingers and not even stop to take a minute. So just the fact that you picked up the phone and you called, I'm really proud of that. Yeah. Good for you, man. So just track the pattern in your own life. Did this happen with your professors? Was it always the professor's fault that they changed the deadline on you and you got to be, cause you got screwed and the umpire, man,

if they had just called the game, right. Is that the kind of the story of your life? I think so. I've never gone to college. So that, that could be the story along the lines with just like different areas that of my life that I've worked with that.

Is life just constantly coming to get you? Honestly, no, I'm very excited about life and like I'm actually currently pursuing like training in another, um, another course to take another job in tech again. Um,

so I don't think I have like a life's always out to get me kind of mentality. Everyone does to some extent. Well, that's fantastic. That gives me some great data to work with. Here's what I had to wrestle with. And Christina, hop in here. Caleb, I'm very, very similar. In fact, I had a good mentor friend of mine sit me down

after like my third or fourth job and i was job hopping every couple years and here was here was my narrative i would start the job i would do really well at it i would have some issues like i always do and because i wasn't settled inside myself i didn't have a i didn't have a good sense of purpose. I didn't really know why I was doing this job other than a paycheck, or I wanted people to think I was special. I was waiting for my dad to call and tell me how proud of him he was. Whatever the thing I was waiting for, it never came. That's just not how life works. And I then started finding people to blame, or as Brene Brown says, whatever you go looking for in the world, you're sure to find. I started seeking out places where I was getting screwed, where it could have been like this. They never even asked my opinion. Forget the 40 other times they asked

my opinion that day. They didn't ask me on that one. And that's bull crap. I'm going to go find it where they, you see what I'm saying? So I went looking for it, but all of that was me trying to place my self-esteem at the foot of my job. And that's not a workplace's job to prop me up. Does that make sense? That makes very, very good sense. And I think you hit the nail on the head that it's the reason I'm so excited when I start this new job because I'm like, it's this new family of people that I get to work with.

And I'm really excited that I get the skills that I bring to the table. And then those feelings just slowly wane as I work at the company. And just, you know, it doesn't fulfill me like I thought it was going toward it did in the beginning. So Caleb, you left, you left high school, and you didn't go to college, correct? That's correct. What was your vision when you left high school? Like, what was the decision process when you went to get that first job? Like what kind of thought went into it? So I worked in tech. I kind of ran a small business on my own. I did live sound audio engineering. So not what, not what did you do, but like how did you make the decision to get that specific job? Okay. Yeah. So I made the decision based on, it was a nonprofit Christian ministry that I was working for, and just they offered me a job directly, and like you're not really landing at like the career that you want, that you don't really have a vision for where you want to go? Like, where do you want to be in 10 years in your career?

What are you what is what is, you know, 33 year old Caleb doing? For sure. For sure. So I believe I've identified that. I love tech. I love the three years that I worked for that company. And I'm currently training to go into cybersecurity and information technology. I'm taking courses and stuff like that. But that is kind of my passion.

I have a real passion for that. Just with my life circumstances, that's why I left the job that I was at. And it was a bad environment as well. So I want you to do the next layer, which I think is harder. Okay. So you've identified you have a passion for cybersecurity. This is John Deloney's opinion. Nobody else is at Ramsey Solutions.

Okay. I think following your passion can sometimes be awful advice because I'm really passionate about things I'm good at and I'm really good at things that I practice. And for most of us, especially when we're in our teens and twenties, we practice things that were made to practice. And when we keep jumping job to job, the job, looking for a feeling, looking to feel passionate about it, we're never going to get there because we're never going to be super good at the thing because we're always moving around and we don't just put in that awful four five seven

nine years of grindy work becoming really good at this trade whatever if the trade is cyber security the trade is being a police officer the trade is whatever you wake up and you're like i'm really good at my job and then there's a there's a you be you go deeper like the roots start growing deep does that make sense that does make sense and so And so here's what I want you, the exercise, not so much 33 year old Caleb, like, okay, you've got this job, you're cybersecurity. Tell us how that feels. Because you're going to have a crummy boss, you're going to have an idiot that keeps taking the food out of the fridge, or you're going to be working from home all by yourself, you're gonna be lonely as all get out. You may or may not be married, and you may not have two or three kids running around making your life bananas and also bringing you more joy

than you know what to do with. So what are you going to feel? What is this going to feel like? It's going to feel really interesting because, and I'm very passionate about those things because cybersecurity in and of itself is just something that I've always had a passion for defending and helping companies to overcome their security risk and stuff like that. I don't know if that's- So you're going to find peace by reaching out, helping a company solve some of their problems. Exactly right. Yes, sir. And that peace is going to override when you have an employee, I mean, a company that doesn't pay you when you've got deadlines that you've got to meet and you've got to miss Christmas Eve because you're working.

All those things are going to come, and they're going to be frustrating, but it's going to be worth it because you're working towards a purpose. You're working to help somebody else solve their problem, and that brings you peace and joy, right? Exactly right. I think I understand exactly what you're trying to say. Find the thing that makes it worth all the pain. There you go.

That's so good. Thank y'all so much for the help. I really appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Thanks for calling. Gosh, that's, oh, that's powerful. And that's, John, you hit the nail on the head. That was good.

So, yeah, I don't know. Here's all I know. I know I chased titles and I chased money and I chased credentials and I chased little fancy plaques. And you've heard me say this a million times, but every time I get a plaque, every time I'd get a raise, I went with me and I wasn't okay with me. And it wasn't until I almost melted the whole thing down that I realized I got to be okay with me. And then I'm free to move about the country, right? Then you're free to whatever job comes. That's fine. Right.

Well, in almost any job, there's going to be challenges. A hundred percent of jobs can be challenges. Yeah. That's just part of it. But if you're okay, then you can deal with them. That's right. We'll be right back. This is The Ramsey Show.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day is John 10.10. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came so that you would have life and have it abundantly. Our quote comes from Maya Angelou. My mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor, and some style. I love that. Get it, girl. All right. Hey, listen, if you haven't heard christina this is pretty rad on tuesday we announced the marriage and money the money and marriage event is back with me and rachel cruz and a whole gang it's going to be even wilder than ever before and this time it's going to be a whole weekend so join rachel cruz and me right here in nashville for money and marriage getaway in october that will have you and your and your spouse feeling more aligned and connected than ever before. The Money in Marriage getaway is designed

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This is your shot. Go to ramsaysolutions.com slash events. Get your money and marriage tickets for you and your spouse. And maybe she'll forgive you. That's so good. That's going to be such an awesome event. All right. I wanted to hit on this.

We're coming up on the February 28th Supreme Court decision, or I guess trial, for the Student Loan Forgiveness Program. And so you can already kind of feel the tension rising. You can feel all the media outlets starting to talk about it. And people are, you've been seeing all these articles about anxiety around student loans and people being confused

and not knowing what's going to happen. And I came across one article that was really interesting. I wanted to talk to you about it. And it says that majority of student loan borrowers link mental health issues to their debt. I'm like, that is huge. And especially right now with all of this limbo, I can't even imagine like what that's got to feel like to be sitting on top of all this and just not knowing what's going to happen next. So this article says most student loan borrowers will struggle to pay their loan debts and more than half say the amount of debt they owe is putting a strain on their mental health.

A survey from the online education program ELVTR found that 54% of student loan borrowers experience mental health challenges due to the amount of debt they owe. 56% of those whose mental health is affected by students' loans say they've experienced anxiety, while about a third said that they suffered from depression because of student loans. The survey also found that student borrowers are putting off major life events due to debt, including starting a family, purchasing a home, and traveling. Yeah, it's a mess. It's an absolute mess. And when I think about the phrase mental health, I got all kinds of issues with all kinds of phrases. But are deciding where I work. They're deciding what jobs I take or don't take. They're deciding where I live. They're deciding whether I start that small business, not me. And so, linking back, yeah,

that's going to cause your body to sound some alarms. You're not running the show. Somebody else is running your life, right? If I think about one of my famous psychologists who I just love, Erwin Yalom, in existential psychology, this idea, this death anxiety, like there's an end coming. If you have been someone paying back student loans over the last three or four or five years in this constant, well, maybe, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe, and this looming thing coming at you. And if you owe 50 or 60 or 75 grand, we've been telling you for years, for the last couple of years, pay it off while there's no interest, pay it off while they keep punning, but millions and millions have not. They know that if this thing gets struck down, that they're going to be faced with a 75 or $80 or $80,000 bill. And just that sense of foreboding, that's mental health, right? I mean, that's going to bury you in a day

or that's going to just constantly keep the back of your mind churning all day, every day. If you want to get married, if you want to start a family, if you want to buy a house and you can't because you've got this $200,000 chain around your neck, right? All of those things play into this sense of, am I safe? Do I have, am I connected to people? And do I have autonomy? And student loans in many cases

take all three of those things away from you. So I'm talking to all these people. I've been talking about this for months. And then just literally last night, I talked to somebody who was like, you know, I want to pay off my debt. We had an FPU class and somebody was like, I want to pay off my debt. But the decision on student loan forgiveness is coming up. So should I just wait? Should I hold off? And I think that we're in this season

where everybody kind of feels like they're in the holding pattern, right? They're like, it's so close, but yet it's so far away, like you said. So what would you say to the person who is feeling anxiety and feeling depression? How do they ride out this next few months of complete uncertainty? I mean, this sounds so cliche at this point, but really you got to sit down and decide what you can control and what you can't. And I made the decision, me and my wife did, both of us grew up with not a lot of money. And we also didn't have any understanding. Our parents didn't have insights into how student loans work. You just signed that

paper and you got to go to college. And then both of us went to grad school. And then both of us went to, kept going to grad school. And so we both, I mean, we ended up with a combined six figures of student loan debt, a lot. So you've been there. You have literally felt those feelings. I couldn't breathe. Walked around my house and my wife's asleep has no idea how bad things are because i'm keeping it from her i mean was that linked to your mental health oh my gosh yes it was the first time in my life i felt um i'm not in control of what happens next and it was paralyzing yeah and i didn't have this i didn't i mean i was dishonest my wife. I didn't tell her how bad it was. I all, it was, it was, it was catastrophic, but I made the choice at the end of the day. It was an integrity issue for me. I told somebody, whoever this, this faceless,

nameless somebody is, if you give me money to go to college, I'll pay you back. And I signed my name on that paper. I was 18 years old. I didn't know what I was saying, but I signed my name. And so it was a big deal to me to work. I mean, we worked three or four jobs. Like I said, we sold our house, moved into an apartment in a residence hall. We figured it out. We drove. Yeah.

We're still driving old, right? We've made sacrifice after sacrifice after sacrifice far beyond my salary. We were making more money than the life we were living because we were still paying stuff back but it's for me it's provided a great deal of um peace because i i told you i pay you back and i paid you back so okay you're in that moment where it's like you're struggling with anxiety link to student loans and then obviously something clicked and y'all got the it's a tiny tiny step towards a solution. Not waiting for some maybe dragon or some maybe angel to swoop in and solve my problem. Because it's just not.

And if you look at all the fine print, it continues to, the sign-off continues to reduce. It's like, well, I'm going to wipe all your student loans away. Then maybe $25,000, then maybe $10,000 for a very select few borrowers and maybe and some like some of my buddies who are professors like they got a letter in the mail you have no more loans like it just went away that was awesome and i've got others who are just waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting i i just made the choice in our home i can't continue to live with this existential anxiety like this is waiting what's coming? I'm going to start taking action. And I think that's so big. We've been saying it throughout this whole debacle of pause being extended and being extended and being

extended. You've got to control what you can control. And right now, I think this next season is going to be kind of wild and people need to buckle up and get ready for a lot of back and forth with the government and student loan forgiveness, a lot of confusion and kind of feeling like chaos. But look at your situation. Look at your finances and what can you control? Start working to pay these off,

even if it feels crazy and you're waiting. Just take control and start tackling these now. All right. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. Thanks to Austin, Ben, James,

Zach and Andrew in the booth and to you, America, for listening. We'll be back soon. around your money journey, we have a weekly newsletter that gives you trending and helpful articles and tips on following the Ramsey way. Just go to ramseysolutions.com today to sign up for our newsletter. Again, that's ramseysolutions.com to sign up for our weekly newsletter.