The Ramsey Show - App - Is It Possible To Start a Business Debt-Free? (Hour 1)

Episode Date: August 16, 2022

Dave Ramsey & Ken Coleman discuss: Starting a debt-free business, Disagreeing about what to do with a property, Preparing financially to switch careers,   Want a plan for your money? Find out where to start: https://bit.ly/3nInETX Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3GxiXm6

I'm from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. Ken Coleman, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality, host of the Ken Coleman Show, is my co-host today. We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. So you've got questions about your life, your career, your money, we're here to help. Open phones, 888-825-5225. Caleb is in Charlotte, North Carolina to start this hour off.

Hi, Caleb. How are you? Good, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. My pleasure. How can we help? So I'm in the middle, or I guess I should say the beginning stages of starting a business. And I'm wondering if it is the best idea to take any profit and put it straight back into the business so I can keep doing it debt-free? Or would it be better to take the profit and pay off personal debt, which would be,

because right now we're in the kind of the middle stages of baby step two on our personal debt. I currently have a full-time job, which is in addition to the business, so the business is separate. Okay. And so you can get out of debt on your full-time job. Are you married? Yes. Does your wife work outside the home? No, my wife is a stay-at-home mom. So what do you make in the day job? About $140,000. Good for you. Okay. How much debt have you got right now we're probably around 18 000 okay yeah stop your whining and get out of debt really seriously 140 over 18 knock it out dude well that's a new it was a big jump recently so okay good i'm messing with you because you the bottom line is your numbers are fabulous you got a big old shovel and a small hole.

So let's just knock out that 18, and that's the good news. Now you've got the side business, and you can afford to take all the side business and pour your money back in out of that. We're not borrowing money for business ever. You will insure your failure if you do for multiple reasons. Especially in a small business situation. I mean, this is throwing off a lot of cash. What is the expense that you're thinking about that you'd have to cash flow versus going to debt? Well, it's not.

So it's going to be a baseball training facility. I will be leasing the building, so i won't be in debt for for that um it'll just be equipment and how fast or how much equipment i want to start out with versus you know just kind of growing a little more organically yeah organically stick with organic man it's just you don't want to stress yourself out and this i'm guessing is the dream is this something you eventually want to step into full-time or you want to keep it on the side? Eventually, I would like it to be full-time. Baseball is kind of my background.

It has been for a long time, and the job I'm in right now I love. But it may not be more than a 10-year thing. So eventually, I would like it to be able to support my family full-time. Sure. Well, good. Then organic is the way to go or else that dream could become a nightmare. Dave's right. You just don't need debt on this. And you're so close to being debt free. Here's a couple things, Caleb, we teach in Entree Leadership on this.

When you grow a business with actual cash, you purchase different things at a different speed than you do when you use other people's money you're more careful about what you buy and you're more careful about what you pay for what you buy because it's like real money you know and that's there's a reality to that uh the second thing that happens is you it forces you to grow to make your purchases slower and you're going to be learning about the business you're going to be learning about the business you're going to get what we always laughingly call learnings uh which are mistakes that leave scars and you're going to you know you're going to learn stuff that would tell you not to purchase something that you might have if you'd gone ahead of the learning and the cash holds you back and

kind of keeps you by dealing with only cash it keeps you from going ahead of what what you've got to learn yet and so you don't make us you don't you don't and then the third thing is when we borrow let me just here's the deal i've been doing this business for 30 plus years 90 of my ideas suck about and this is a world-class nationally known brand and all of that all the 10 million people that have gone through financial peace University 22 million people listen to this all of that impact is because of about 10% of our ideas the other 90 90% of our ideas, we survived them because they were stupid. And the problem is when you're going for your walk in the morning or you're running the morning or you're sitting on the back porch with a cup of coffee, all your ideas are brilliant.

And when you put them out there in the real world, you just determine that they're not. And when you borrow money into the wrong thing thing you magnify the size of the mistake because you do stupid on steroids and so when you use cash it causes you to go at the speed of your learning it you'll learn you'll make better purchases and more careful purchases and you don't magnify your mistakes because there's 100 of the time you're going to make mistakes it's brilliant and one thing to add to that caleb cash increases your innovation because if you're borrowing money you go i'm going to buy this equipment this equipment because everybody else does it and when you got to go cash you go how do i teach the baseball swing

or how do i do this without a bunch of fancy equipment it really does increase your innovation because when you don't have cat when you don't have the cash but you still want to grow it you go how can i do this the least expensive way and the imagination takes over and that's what leads to innovation craig rochelle talks about this so that i was going to mention him the limited resources when you realize your resources are limited, and everybody's resources are limited, but the borrowing takes away that effect temporarily, but the limited resource forces the creativity.

That's correct. And it forces you to get scrappy. And you scratch a new claw, and scrappy always wins. And some of the more shameful errors we have made at ramsey were when we got a little bit fat and we had a little bit of cash we had a little bit of room and we just went well what is my there and then all of a sudden you you lose that scrappiness you lose that creativity you lose uh you know forcing to learn the techniques blocking and tackling goes to the side and we think we're too good for it.

And, you know, and you're looking for an easy button, and there's just not a freaking easy button. That's right. So you're really doing a good thing here, Caleb. You're really doing a good thing. Yeah, you've got a great situation with a great day job to pay off your debts and to continue building your finances, and 100% of the profits on that business can go back into that business. Grow it organically. Grow at the speed of cash you know we built this building uh three years ago

four years ago whatever it was uh the only thing the newspaper actually got right because they never get anything right on me um they make up crap when they want to. But anyway, Ramsey is building the building at the speed of cash. Yeah. And that was the headline. Oh, good. And after you got past the headline, nothing in the article was accurate. But, you know, like it never is, right? But that's why you're an accurate headline.

But, I mean, that's it. That's all they got. That's what I told the little guy. We're building the building at the speed of cash. In other words, if we run out of cash, we're going to stop building. There you go. This is the Ramsey Show. សូវាប់ពីបានប់ពីបានប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពី ken coleman number one best-selling author host of the ken coleman show where we talk about career and job is my co-host today open phone is 888-825-5225.

Nikki is in Wichita, Kansas. Hi, Nikki, what's up? Hi, Dave. Not a lot. How are you today? Better than I deserve. How can we help? Good.

I'm calling because my husband and I, we own two houses. Well, right now we have a mortgage on one, and one is supposed to be our rental property. We haven't been wants to rent it. And I have a lot of conflict. So we've been trying to follow your steps since we got married, since before we got married. And he's the one who introduced me to you. And so we paid off all of our debt after we got married, and we are still debt-free, praise God. But I know that I've listened on your show before, and we've been partially through Financial Peace University,

and we've gotten some advice from some of our church friends, and renting this house doesn't seem like the right thing to do right now, and I really don't know what to do. It's caused a lot of conflict. It's like the main conflict in our marriage, and I'm just calling you to see what you would advise me to do okay um well uh i hear him whining in the background he was always always my dream, and you're a dream killer. That's what I'm hearing.

Because the way you were shamed into your sentence structure, I heard shame coming out. I know it's always his dream, and I don't want to kill his dream, which means he's been telling you that you're a dream killer. And let me just tell you, when you kill somebody's nightmare, you're not a dream killer. You're a nightmare killer and you know if somebody's doing something stupid and you tell them not to do it you're not a dream killer that's an act of love and so your disagreement is based in love here it's not based in the fact that um little boy can't get what he wants um so

let's not start there at all i'm not gonna i'm not gonna dignify that with an answer but um but what what let's just back up a minute i think the two of you need to sit down with a marriage counselor and pan back because basically he signed you up for a series a way of handling money that was proven that would be the shortest distance to wealth and generosity and then once he signed you up for that he changed horses and decided i want to live my dream i want a rental house with that and um so he's the one that changed the deal here so somebody has to kind of help you guys navigate through the mediation of him changing the direction because you didn't change anything he said hey let's do this dave ramsey stuff and then he goes

well i don't really want to do it anymore am i missing something no i don't think so okay and you sound awfully tired fatigued and beat down by a stupid rental house discussion. It's just a house. Yeah. Okay. I will mention also that it's been in his family. So he has had his family let him know that they would rather him not sell it. Well, then they ought to buy it yeah i agree

you know and it's okay there's so many guilt trips in the i mean you guys you guys are good travel agent for guilt trips around there him his family it's like a modus operandi so you the two of you need to decide what is best for the two of you if it includes keeping this house and paying it off very very quickly that's okay if it includes keeping this house and staying deeply in debt because my family shamed me into it and my husband shamed me into it this is toxic as crud this house is paid off um we completely own this house we don't own any money the one you're talking about renting right right you got debt on the other house yes the house that we live in we bought in 2020 oh and you but you bought you borrowed money on it because you didn't sell the other one right yeah so that so effectively you borrowed

money to keep the other one yeah yeah what will the other one sell for um the rental yes uh well it's appraised at 4545,000. $45,000? Yeah. Well, this is a fine piece of property. It's really small. It's like a little one-bedroom, one-bathroom house. Most people call me with car payments bigger than this. And y'all are arguing about a dump of a house oh lord what's the rent

on that i can't imagine it's rid of it it's a piece of trash there's no question listen 20 years from now are you gonna be glad you own this as an investment no it's not gonna get better it already sucks no i don't want this piece of real estate no no no no no no no no if you want to keep it as a is there land with it no there's not there's not any land value no it's a tiny it's it's a tiny house on a big lot yeah Yeah. And it's very, very old and very dumpy. Yeah. It's $45,000, girl. This tells us everything we need to know. Okay, so here's the deal.

I don't care, but here's the thing. The question you all have to ask yourself as a couple, other people outside your marriage do not get a vote in this including me you call me for my advice i'll give you my advice but i don't even get a vote okay you guys got to decide what you're going to do and the question you need to do is the two of you as a husband and wife need to pan back and say 10 years from now 20 years from now which of these decisions are we going to be glad we did i can can promise you, having owned over 2,000 pieces of real estate in my life, that dealing with the tenant you're going to deal with in a $45,000 house for the next 20 years is

not going to add value to your life. This is going to be a total pain in the butt and all for nothing financially. The only possible reason to consider keeping this house is it's been in the family. And it's a $45,000 keepsake. But even then, listen, this is one of those things he needs to let go of. And so, yeah, you need to sit down with a marriage counselor because the pain in your voice has nothing to do with his property. It has to do with his family injecting themselves into your all's life. It has to do with your husband changing horses in the middle of the dadgum stream

and saying, well, you know, I'm, you know. But, yeah, take the $45,000, pay it down on your mortgage, and then start working to get your mortgage off. That's what Dave and Sharon Ramsey would do, even if the little house had been in her family or my family. And even if our little families didn't like it, we would still go check it out. If you want to keep it, it's only 45 grand. Run yourself down to the credit union. Write me a check. I'll hand you the deed. Yeah. And I think the marriage counseling

is the key here. This thing has become way bigger than it needs to be. It's just not worth it. It's not causing a ton of financial stress other than the upkeep. So I think there's two sides to this. I think, Dave, you're absolutely right, but I also don't think it needs to cause this much stress for her either. It's not like it's burdening them in any way. You sound exhausted. It does.

It seems like this thing has gotten huge, and it's a little teeny tiny house that, quite frankly, they don't owe anything on. I would do the same thing, and I'd take the 45 now. Like today, I'd take it and put do the same thing and i'd take the 45 now like today i'd take it yeah and put it on the house i'd take 35 just get rid of the problem it's it's not a blessing it's a curse yeah yeah and so it's it's gonna be a long yeah there's a reason you can't rent it hello so yeah i i think there's the the fatigue is not about the house it's not

about the finances it's about your husband changing horses in the middle of the stream saying we were going to do this now i decided i want to and it's about all this interference and argument over really nothing it's not worth it this is the Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author of Paycheck Purpose, is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage. Josh and Ashley are with us. Hey, guys, how are you? We're doing great, Dave. How are you doing?

Better than we deserve, brother. Welcome. Where do you guys live? We're from Burgistown, Pennsylvania, which is right outside of Pittsburgh. Awesome. Very cool. So how much debt have you guys paid off? We had $147,500 that we paid off.

Love it. How long did this take you? It took us nine years. Wow. All right. And your range of income during that time? With overtime and bonuses, we started in the 80s, and now we're between 100 and 150. Okay.

Way to go, guys. Very good job. All right. And what kind of debt was the $148,000? It was our house. Hey, look at it, weird people. Wow. No payments in the world how's that feel it feels great i can't imagine how old are you two i'm 33 i'm 34 all right and you have a paid for house that's right what's the house worth we bought it was worth 150 and it's hard

to say what it's worth now okay but you bought it like nine years ago yeah so it's probably worth four or five hundred it's definitely up a few bucks at this point so definitely okay you don't even care because you're not selling it that's right all right good way to go you guys way to go so tell us what do you guys do for a living i'm an operation supervisor for a midstream natural gas company i'm'm a mom and a wife. I love it. Very good. Good for you guys. Household executive. I like it. That works for me. I knew you were going to say that. So the 148,009 years, tell us how this all got started. How'd you get introduced to this whole Ramsey stuff? So before I was an operations supervisor i was a instrument electrical technician and i was on my way to a call out and i was scrolling through channels and you were on the college

station and that was the beginning of everything okay so you heard us squawking about this on the radio that's right and you said uh wait a minute maybe i could pay this off yep so bought the books and then uh not too long after that we went and did fpu oh wow okay all right so actually you just were along for the ride or you did you uh push back against this or was it all your idea and he's just making it like it is it was not my idea no i am the free spirit okay um but i am the first one to cut off my credit card ah ah she wins that contest yeah there you go okay I'll show you so when he comes home and he starts talking about Dave and the show and all this stuff and he paints the picture what do you think it's gonna do for you guys how quickly did you jump on

board at least from okay this makes sense to all right I'm to be the first one to cut the card? I don't know. I think at first I was, even after I cut the card, I was kind of really frustrated with him over the whole budget thing. I can remember our first two budget meetings I cried. Oh, wow. Was it the process that made you cry or the taskmaster there beside you? The taskmaster. Uh-oh.

Is that me? Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Honest to a flaw. There we go. process that made you cry or the taskmaster there beside you the test mess oh oh oh oh oh too much truth i like it i love it that's fun that's fun because that that the first budget committee meetings are emotionally they're gut-wrenching because you're a you're having to look at all your stuff and it's like like, man, did we screw up some stuff? And, man, have we got some opportunity to go win here? And then you've got to start going, man, we've got to cut back, and I've got to watch this, and it's all your fault. And, man, you can have some of the biggest fights of your entire marriage in those first two budget meetings. And that's a very real thing.

That's a very real thing. So you guys push through. Here you are nine years later. And boom, house is paid for. Was it worth it? It was totally worth it. Yes. Will you go back in debt? No, that's not the plan at all.

My favorite part, I think, is the peace part. The financial peace part. I think that's my favorite part. You do kind of relax in a place you didn't even realize was hurting. You know, and you go, wow, I didn't realize I was carrying around 300 pounds until I set it down. You said one time that some people have a security organ, and I tell him all the time I have a security organ. Absolutely.

It's very real. And financial peace, two words that don't go together, like airline service. It's pretty incredible. Well, I'm proud of you guys. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? The budget was huge. But it was a crazy ride through the end.

The last year was just pretty wild. We started off on a pretty paved surface. We had just had baby number four. And then I got promoted and I finished my bachelor's degree. All right. And I work for an awesome company. We say we because it's a package deal. But we had just taken six weeks of paternity leave, paid for.

So very cool stuff. What did you get your degree in? Engineering management. Oh, wow. Very good. But we came back off of paternity leave, and we found out that Ashley had stage four cancer. Oh, my.

Oh, no. So we didn't even do a budget for about four months while we were working through the early stages of that. But we had been so disciplined and used to doing it that we knew what we could spend. We had an emergency fund. We had our family, our friends, our church, and our work family taking care of us and supporting us. And we were able to keep on going. And then things started turning around there and then very unexpectedly we uh lost my dad in january so wow it's a tough run on the end there you're

right so how you doing now actually i'm good um i will forever always have treatment um but it was actually i say this and people kind of look at me weird but like it was actually, I say this and people kind of look at me weird, but like it was actually really cool. There was a period of time where I didn't get out of bed. Would you say like six weeks? Thereabouts. But I never thought that I would get to be where I'm at now. I'm kind of back to where, maybe not necessarily back to where I was before, but close to back to what I was before. Wow.

Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's a great recovery. Yeah. Praise God. Good stuff. Okay. Really cool.

I like the end of this story better. Yeah. And so to tout the plan, if you really want to test your financial game plan, get cancer and see where you're at on the other side. Yeah. So that'll check everything out for sure. Wow. Well, what an incredible story, you two. You're amazing.

We're proud of you. Well done. Well done. Excellent, excellent job. All right, bring the kiddos up. We've got a copy of Baby Steps Millionaires for you, How Ordinary People Built Extraordinary Wealth and How You Can Too. And, of course, that'll be the next chapter in you guys' story.

We've also got an additional membership for one year at Financial Peace University. Maybe give that away since you've been through it. I don't care. Go back through it. Good for us either way. And Total Money Makeover is there for you to give away as well. So all those gifts. What are your kids' names and ages?

Go ahead, Ann. I'm Hannah, and I'm nine. Oh, we can't hear them. You're going to have to tell us this is hannah she's nine this is caleb he's five lc she's seven and levi's 18 months all right very good all right josh and ashley and the gang from pennsylvania i love it 148 000 paid off in nine years, making $80,000 to $150,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two.

Ready? One, two, three. We're debt-free! Woo! Some help in the countdown. Yeah, little Levi had another idea there another idea there's like wait a second i want to say something i got something to say yeah well done well i'll tell you what life is going to happen to you anyway that's the truth so you might as well be on a plan to prosper while you're doing

it and to put yourself in a position to uh not have to worry about money while you're fighting stage four oh my god i mean that's amazing she came back from that really true that's pretty strong peace allows you to focus on what you need to to persevere but when you got money problems and then life throws the extra problems at you it only compounds and this is a wonderful example of that that's exactly right that's how it works i mean this idea that you know it's that forrest gump thing one less thing to worry about it's true it's uh you got to really have a whole way a whole different way of viewing this stuff and um this freedom gives you every bit of that proud of those guys they're heroes man family

took control of their life nine years the struggle goes on, but they're 100% debt-free, house and everything, and the other side of a cancer fight. Wow. This is the Ramsey Show. Teksting av Nicolai Winther Ken Coleman, number one best-selling author and host of The Ken Coleman Show. Ramsey Personalities, my co-host today. You know, every time you hear someone do their debt-free scream, it's because at some point they said, Enough! I'm not living like this anymore. I've had it!

You have to have that moment where you say, That's it. Enough! And when you get mad like that, that's when you're getting ready to change your life inflation stupid credit cards gas prices it's killing you and you it may be your time right now to rise up and say enough you know you have to decide to control what you can control and that's you your behavior you have the power to control and change your future. Financial Peace University is where we've shown 10 million people how to do that. And it's a proven step-by-step plan.

And you want to get out of debt, get on a budget, build wealth, be outrageously generous, learn about investing. It's the class you should have taken in high school, but you didn't. So now it's time to be sick and tired of being sick and tired. Say, that's it. I've had enough. I'm done. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash enough.

RamseySolutions.com slash enough and get yourself into Financial Peace University. Bill is with us. Bill is in San Antonio, except that's not the line. There it is. Bill's in San Antonio, except that's not the line. There it is. Bill's in San Antonio. Hey, Bill, how are you? Better than I deserve, sir. How are you?

Just the same. How can we help? Okay, so to keep it short, I am 28. I'm a software developer with a household income of about $5,000 a month. My wife is 25 and is a full-time grad student. We are on baby step three, so we're completely debt-free. However, we are currently cash-flowing my wife's final year of grad school, so we don't have that much saved.

Here's my question. I'd like to go back to school myself and change careers, however, to a career that would pay significantly less money than I'm currently earning. I'd like to pursue pastoral ministry. It is a passion and a calling I felt for over a decade, and I've been deeply involved in local church since throughout the time. However, I'm very deeply concerned with how I'd support a wife and any future kids we might have on a pastor's salary. So how do I prepare financially to be a minister with a family? Lots of pastors I know make $60,000 and more.

Yeah. I think you've created a... I'm worried, like... What are you worried about specifically? How much, how limited we would be whether we'd be able to uh pay for home or for our kids uh college expenses in the future um if we're only making 60 or something close to that you're making 60 now you said you make 5 000 a month right but we don't have any kids right now, and we don't. And we're only renting.

We don't have significant expenses right now. Well, Bill, let me give you a real-life scenario here. I just, over the weekend, was back in the Hampton Roads, Virginia area, visiting my mom and dad for my brother's daughter's wedding and just reveling in the living room late on Saturday night with my mom and dad for my brother's daughter's wedding and just reveling in the living room late on Saturday night with my mom and dad about 47 years of ministry. My dad recently retired. He never made more than $40,000 a year. My brother and I both went to college. My mom and dad have paid their house off. It's been paid off for 20 years. It's a false narrative that you can't raise kids and help send your kids to college by being a pastor.

And my dad pastored small churches. So, you know, your income ability in multiple positions within ministry, multiple, okay, can easily make 60. And I think Dave can make the case that you can do everything you want to do for your family with your family making $60,000. I'm just giving you a real-life scenario. That's really helpful. Yeah, I know that the compensation could be extremely variable.

I talked to one pastor who was making as little as $30,000 or $35,000. Okay, hold on. What was his scenario? What was his situation? He was a full-time pastor in philadelphia of how big of a church that i don't know i can guarantee is very small so you're choosing the extreme edge here uh to kind of validate your fear and if i could just challenge you uh this is what you feel called to and if and i'm not going to question that but if you believe that you're called to ministry then you also believe that god will provide what you need and at some point you're going to have to

uh choose faith over fear you know this you can preach on it absolutely and um yeah and two other pieces of information 80 of people in um in america today that are pastors are bivocational they work two jobs and so your days of uh being a software engineer are probably not over um i know lots and lots of pastors uh financial peace university has been taught over 50 000 churches now so we've got an intimate look at the finances of the pastors the finances of the churches for three decades now and the vast majority of them make over $60,000 a year in a church of reasonable size. But if you're going to pastor 45 people or 100 people, you're not going to make any money.

But if you're going to grow a church and have a ministry that has some impact on a larger number of people than that, then you're going to get yourself in a position reasonably to make a decent income. And anytime you want to add to it, then you can just, you know, pick up some software development stuff, some software engineering stuff, and you've got that skill set. The second thing I would add to this is education is always, not always, education in your chosen field that is applicable continued personal growth

is always a good idea and so a pastor who continues to study doctrine theology greek hebrew and so on uh is a good idea throughout the rest of your life uh but there are many movements within the evangelical circles that do not require a degree at all to pastor. I know many, many pastors of substantial churches who are great theologians who never darken the door of a seminary except to go speak to them occasionally. And so the requirement to have a seminary degree in order to be a pastor is simply not there in the marketplace that you're in. Is it preferable that you're knowledgeable? You bet. I would add to that.

I think you ought to go to Israel and actually see where the Bible happened and walk around on those spots before you preach a sermon. It would really change the whole world for you. I did, I did that late in my faith walk and it changed everything in the way I read and saw the Bible and the way I teach the Bible. And so, yeah, you know, there's a lot to the whole thing of gathering up information and knowledge in your faith. But the requirement of an expensive seminary degree to make $35,000 a year is simply not real. That's not true. So you can start pastoring now, and you can add your formal education as you go along

and you know if you pick up an extra 40,000 bucks on top of your current income and start pastoring now bivocationally then start adding some classes in grow your ministry over time you're making 60 100 it's not that unusual at all you're ministering to 500 or a thousand people not that unusual at all and uh that's you know that there's a whole lot of need for that in america today and uh for men and women that do that kind of thing so um and yes seminary is a good idea i'm not trashing education i don't do that but but you know one of the things you talk about ken is is it a requirement to enter the space and the answer is no here. It's not. And realistically,

you know, you need to be thinking about what is my entry point, because there's lots of different ways you could go. I will tell you, unless you have a specific heart to plant a church, meaning to start a church from scratch, which let me just tell you, that is the hardest thing in the world to do. Let me just tell you, it is. My dad did it twice. But you may serve yourself well by getting in on a staff and learning ministry from a terrific leader above you and taking your time to move up. So a lot of this right now needs to be, where do you see yourself 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the line in ministry? Is it a parachurch organization, which is just as much ministry as a traditional church?

These are the questions I'd like you to figure out right now by hanging out with people that are doing ministry in those roles, and then you'll get verification on where you want to go and then the best way to get there. Yeah, if you could get on staff somewhere now, you could contract your software engineering and work as a full-time job. I think that's a great idea. Working as a full-time job. That'd be very possible. A lot of options there, dude. A lot of options. A lot of ways to get at it.

Thanks for being a listener. Thanks for calling in. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, folks. Ken Coleman here. Did you know The Ramsey Show is one of the most popular podcasts in the world? Get your daily dose of advice on life and money. Check out all of our shows from The Ramsey Network wherever you listen to podcasts.