The Ramsey Show - App - Is It Worth $100k To Go Back to Law School? (Hour 3)

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

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Thank you. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studio, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where Americans hang out to have a conversation about life. We'll talk about money. We'll talk about your relationships, mental health, emotional health. We'll talk about your job, your work. Are you on purpose?

We'll talk about it all. We'll talk about you. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. 888-825-5225. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by Dr. John Deloney, and we are taking your calls this hour. John, we were just talking during the break, fascinating with all these people wanting to move and change jobs, the great resignation. You were talking about fight or flight, big, big warning sign.

Don't jump just because you feel or you're thinking and you're stressed out and you're going, ah, I need change. Slow down, you say. Yeah, so when you're faced with chaos you're faced with fear you're faced with when your alarms start ringing that you're not safe you don't know what's coming and there's some we're running on ancient operating systems up top right and so it's our brains are gonna try to fight something and we've seen that for the last 24 36 months everybody yelling at each other and screaming and hollering and whatever and then you're gonna run from it you're gonna

flee and so if you're sitting in your job right now and you're thinking i gotta get out of here i gotta go i gotta go i don't have any other plans i've got fifty thousand dollars to loan debt but i just got i can't be here if you're in an abusive situation, absolutely, you've got to go. If you think that simply moving is going to solve this, I want everyone to remember that wherever you go, you go with you. That's right.

And then the next, you're going to freeze is that state of, I'm frozen, right? Well, that sounded dumb. Like, freeze is frozen, right? That was stupid. That was redundant,

but it's this, it's taking all of your feelings and what you, and just shutting it down. So your body just says, Hey, we're going into neutral here because we can't handle this. And that's next. So everybody slow down,

slow down. And that's what I love. What you teach, get clear about what you're looking for. Go towards something, not away from something. That's it. And be clear about what you're looking for go towards something not away from something that's it and be clear about what you're looking for where you want to go i think the last 24 months has shaken our snow globe collectively and individually relationally everything now it's a

good moment in history to ask who do i want to be what i want to be yes right but don't make the jump the change without purpose being in the equation. Use it on purpose. Before you jump off the dock. You know what you say. Before you jump off the dock, make sure there's a boat there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, jumping is overrated.

It's kind of fun. It's fun. For fun. But, I mean, not big, big, big life changes. There's a cost. Yeah. So let's be careful. We can walk into it.

My point is we've romanticized the big, I'm leaving, you know, the Jerry Maguire moment. Who's coming with me? He's got the goldfish. Let's not do that. All right, let's get to your calls. Randy joins us in Roanoke, Virginia. Randy, how can we help? Hey, how are you guys?

We're having a blast. I'm doing great. So I own a couple of small businesses, and I still work a full-time job. And me and my wife have talked about it and we have come to the conclusion that it's time for me to jump ship and do um my thing and i called to get one extra opinion but it sounds like i'm going to get two so uh i may be quiet on this one this is what this is this is his world yeah so sounds like you guys have decided and you just want uh two opinions we'll give them to you so what are you concerned about sounds like

you've decided to jump but you're going all right i just want to make sure this isn't wacky so what are you afraid of well i you know i've got i've got uh my retirement set i'm 49 years old i've got uh about 550 000 in a raw 401k nice uh we've saved about 200 000 cash nice and everything we own is paid for um and so you're a millionaire brother uh yes sir um and i i can replace my income uh probably uh probably% to 50% higher than what I make at my job. But I am leaving $80,000 behind. So there's a figure of am I really doing the right thing? And I've been able for 10 years to do this. So should I really leave? Okay's just explain one number to me what do you mean when you say you're leaving 80 000 behind

you mean the difference between what you're making now with these side businesses versus what your day job's paying you is that what you mean yes yes sir i i don't even think this is a mat normally to me it's always a math number. When I get this call on the Ken Coleman Show, somebody will say, Ken, when's the time to leave? I'll go, when the math is right. When you can move full-time into your business and the budget's stable. We're not struggling.

We're not scared out of our minds because we know it's risky. It's just the right time. I think that time is already here, and I think you know that. I don't think you're doing anything wrong by leaving the day job. No, I do not. I think that financially, you're in great shape. You have no debt anywhere in your life, and you're going to make a big chunk of what you're already making, and you have enough to live on. I would ask you this. How long do you think, and this is an estimate I know, but how long would you estimate before you replace that $80,000

because you're going full-time into your own business? Yeah, I thought you said you're going to be making more over time. I will be making more than I make. I would suspect that my businesses will probably do 20% to 30% more immediately, which is me just being there and being involved with them on a day-to-day basis. So it's a no-brainer. So this isn't a math problem. This is a security blanket pacifier question.

Yeah. Yeah, you're probably right. You're scared of a monster under the bed that doesn't exist. Randy, do you need a hug? Yeah, well. Randy, I will give you a hug. Actually, you know what I think Randy needs? I think he needs a high five.

You do, man. Randy's crushed it. Randy, you're debt free. You're a millionaire. You're a Baby Steps millionaire. You have built these businesses up on your own. I mean, dude, you're where everybody wants to be. Walk today.

You get to say, take this job and shove it, and I'm going to go make more money. Yes. So what do you need from us? You already know this. Validation. I really like what I do, but there are opportunities outside of that to do the works. And I think I called on the right day because, you know, there are things that I would like to do. I just needed somebody else to say, yeah,

you guys are going in the right direction because there's all kinds of ministry opportunities that we can pursue without having this leash on. There is no move you can make, staying or going, that's not going to have a risk to it. Yep. And so whenever I look at risk, I look at what am I anchored to, what am I chained to, and what is the potential catastrophe here? And you owe nobody anything.

Yes. You've got half a million dollars in tax-free retirement income. You have a paid-for house. So you're chained to essentially nothing. And then you've got a $200,000 cushion, plus already established businesses that are going to go up 15-30% the day you walk in the door.

There is no catastrophe. Bye, Felicia. Dude. Bye! You called for encouragement? We're trying to guilt you into this, man. Hang up the phone. Call your wife. Tell her you're coming home to give her a big smooch and a big hug. And we're going to dinner.

We're going to dinner. And today's the day I resign and step into the future I have been planning and working so hard for. You're a freaking rock star, Randy. Thanks, Randy. Randy. Everybody wants to be like you when they grow up. Embrace it, my man. This is the Ramsey Show.

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That's why I've used and recommended them for over 20 years. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282. So I don't have to keep talking about these sad stories. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, joined by my colleague and fellow Ramsey personality, Dr. John Deloney. We are part of the Ramsey Network. He is the host of The Dr. John Deloney Show, a popular podcast and YouTube show. And I'm host of The Ken Coleman Show. I'm not going to say that my own show is popular, but go check out both shows.

We do believe deeply in what we do we do we believe we can help you so we're both thrilled to be here it just occurred to me james was like i gotta say that nice about my pal but i'm not gonna say that about my own show i'm john deloney hosting a moderately successful i host a very popular wildly outrageously popular show popular show. You know, it's just like, come on. Anyway, we're thrilled to be together as we sit here today and take your calls, 888-825-5225. Hey, find out for yourself why Blinds.com is the number one online retailer of custom window coverings. You get free samples, free shipping,

and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more. Use the promo code RAMSEsey to get the best deal all right today's question comes from robert in arizona robert says i'm an engineer and i earn about a hundred and ten thousand dollars a year i'm married with three kids and we live close to our parents we are debt free except for our mortgage my employer recently implemented some policies that have very anti-biblical stances, which has made me look for another job. Every company in my field is following the same pattern,

so staying in the industry isn't an option. There is a ministry that I really admire, and just for fun, I sent my resume to them because it's been a dream of mine to work there. They offered me a position. However, we'd have to move away from family to a new state state and my salary would be reduced by $45,000 a year. Should I leave my career and family for this opportunity? All right. So I love these blinds.com questions because they're always like a giant onion and we have no recourse. We get to invent the backstory.

Yeah. We get to try to figure out what the back and forth would be. I don't think that this is your only option, and so I start there. Sounds like to me that, Robert, you've made the decision. There is no turning back. There's no situation by which you're going to stay in this particular company. I would challenge you to look industry-wide and see if the positions that your company's adopting truly are industry-wide. So let's at least do some homework. Let's know that we know that we know. Now, having said that, I think, John, when I hear this question, I see that there's a very clear ending for him, and he's going, okay, it's time to move on.

I can't work here anymore because of values issues. Yeah. Okay? But just because you are enamored with with admire this ministry in another state that has a job that pays you significantly less money doesn't mean it's the only escape hatch right and so i want to see you pursue other opportunities um and and if you can quickly because i know this offers there uh see what else is out there at least. You may not have offers, but let's just see what's out there. Here's my concern.

This is a massive cut in pay. Included in this massive cut in pay and income is leaving your family. Those are two big hits, John. There's some emotional and mental stuff that goes with those two changes in lifestyle. It's enough to leave and cleave. That has its own issues, right?

But then we're going to all of a sudden almost cut our salary in half. Can I tell you that if you could do it, do it. Yeah. But I just want to see other options first. Ken, you take these calls all the time. And I know during the break I was reading this, and I missed this when I read it during the break. How often does somebody have a dream job somewhere or what they think is a dream job?

They're in their engineering job, their actuarial job, their accounting job, their management job, and they have this other lighthouse on a hill somewhere. somewhere yep it's real easy to begin to backfill and demonize and weaponize little things to make them bigger to give myself permission to go does that make sense totally does that happen happens a lot here's why he's got this values disconnect with his current company so he finds this ministry which looks like to your point a shining city on a hill. Like he says, I've just really admired them forever, and it's my dream. And he thinks it's Shangri-La, right? But wait a second. What do I teach?

Well, great that you like that, and you think they're great, is the position that you're looking at in your sweet spot. Do you have the talent to pull it off? Does it allow you to use your talent? Does 80% of the job include work that you really get juiced about does the job the results that that particular job produce results that matter deeply to you if it's not yes on all three of those things guess what that ministry that you fell in love with that you donated to or you watch on television can become a place of misery in about six weeks so to your point just because you admire it and it aligns with your values

doesn't mean it's a great place to work well i see this with relationships when somebody's when people's marriage is in a tough spot we've all been there and then that person at work starts paying attention to you oh it's easy to go wait wait a minute, that's what I'm missing here. And it's not only that, it's because she, man, it's not reality. Anytime I'm going to make a values-based thing,

whether it's anti-biblical, anti-whatever, anti-fill in the blank. You and I are talking about, man, I'm always going to sit down with somebody that I trust, a mentor, and say, am I seeing this right?

And in my life, 99% of the time, they've said, Tony, you're an idiot. No. You're not seeing that right at all, right? Yeah. But anyway, I'd sit down and talk to somebody before I packed up and moved across the country. Robert, here's the deal. RamseySolutions.com. We've got the Get Clear Career Assessment.

John, we created it for this reason. Yeah. It's going to measure talent, passion, mission. 15-minute online assessment. Here's what happens. You get a purpose statement. And the purpose statement is going to allow you to look at mission. 15-minute online assessment. Here's what happens. You get a purpose statement. And the purpose statement is going to allow you to look at opportunities like this and truly vet it. Because is it on purpose or not?

Because just because you like it doesn't mean that that's something that you were created to do. So I'm going to throw this back at him and go, all right, you're dropping in biblical values. I'm going to tell you something. I believe you were created to fill a unique role if this job doesn't allow you to fill that unique role use the god-given talent to do work that god just fires your soul up about because you just love it and it creates results that matter deeply if it doesn't do that then don't do it i don't care how awesome you love it yeah and and it just doesn't matter go towards something yeah go towards something we've been talking about it's been a theme yeah go towards something. Yeah. Go towards something. We've been talking about this.

It's been a theme. Yeah, go towards something. Don't run from. Yeah, go towards, man. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, let's get to it. 888-825-5225. Let's go to Tony in Orlando, Florida.

Tony, how can we help? Greetings, gentlemen. Greetings. How are you? I am well. Great. How can we help? So I left my job about the end of May.

I'm working part-time, barely making ends meet, but I have no idea what I want to do. I have nothing whatsoever in sight. So looking for a full-time salary position has been extremely difficult. Yeah. And I was just curious if there's anything out there, any assessments or anything that can at least give me some focus on what I want to do. Okay, so, Tony, let's address the immediate.

Okay. When we put you on hold in a minute, we're going to get you my Get Clear Career Assessment. We'll get you a link and a code, and it's our gift to you. I want you to take it, and it's going to help you see yourself as you've never seen yourself before. It's going to give you all kinds of ideas, okay? And then there'll be some follow-up to where I can help you with that. But let's talk about the fact that you're in a part-time job right now in the hottest job economy in the history of the United States,

and you're barely making ends meet. So here's the deal. Today on this phone call, we're not going to try to figure out the dream job. What we are going to look at is talent only. Now, if you, Tony, introduce me to all the people that know you well, and I hung out with all of them for about three days and I just spent time with a pencil and paper and I said, tell me what Tony does best. They would tell me what you're talented at. People skills, hard skills, soft skills, the whole nine yards, character traits, everything. That's what I want you focused on because those are the tools that you can use right now to go get yourself a good paying day job. Hear me say, day job.

You hear me? And then I want you to take the Get Clear Career Assessment. You can call me on the Ken Coleman Show. We'll dive deep with your results. It's going to show you what you're most talented at. It'll verify what your friends are going to tell you. It's going to tell you the kind of work you really love. It's going to tell you the results that you are driven by, and then it'll show you professional possibilities. And then you can go do research. But here's what I want you to do. I want you to find five of your closest friends

and family members who will tell you the truth. And I want you to all create a list of what you do best. And then I want you to go look for a day job where you know you can actually do a really good job because you've got the talent. Because we need a full-time job for you, Tony. We've got to get stable financially. Hang on the line. We're going to get you in Ramsey Plus as well so you can get a budget going and begin to get your financial life stable as we begin to

figure out what your professional purpose looks like. Thank you so much for the call. You got this. So much value in you. Believe it. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, y'all. I'm Christi Wright. Listen, when you're tired and not getting enough sleep, your health and happiness suffers. That's why I'm a huge fan of Glorify, the number one daily worship and well-being app. This app has calming meditations and peaceful sleep music so you can finally push pause and get some rest.

Give Glorify a try. Download the Glorify app and get 50% off their full library when you use the code RAMSEY. That's the code RAMSEY. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show, America. Thrilled to have you with us, 888-825-5225. I am Ramsey personality, Ken Coleman, joined by Ramsey personality, Dr. John Deloney. We are here taking your calls this hour. It is a free call.

We'd love to hear from you. And, Doc, I look through the window here of the the studio and I see someone on the debt-free stage. It is Luke from Albany, New York. Welcome, sir. Thank you. All right. So here to do a debt-free scream. That's right. Yeah, it feels a little surreal. Okay. All right. How much did you pay off, Luke? I paid off $34,128.67. Oh my goodness. All the way down to the six. I love that. How long did it take you? It took me a year and three months. A year and three months. All

right. And what was your range of income? I started at about like 34 and then got up to 42. Okay. 34 to 42. What do you do? Whoa, you crushed this then. I work at an adult dayhab program for people with special needs. And I did that. And then I picked up a part-time job and a couple more side gigs along the way. Okay, nice. So that's an $8,000 bump there. That gazelle intensity led you to do that.

That's really awesome. Did you sell some stuff? That's a lot of money. That's basically your salary you paid off in that short period of time. I tried to sell some stuff on eBay, and that failed miserably. So I didn't sell anything, but I had just graduated in 2019. Okay. So out of college at my parents. Didn't have a lot of expenses. Okay. So out of college, at my parents. Didn't have a lot of expenses.

No. You are the dream graduate who just sucks it up for one year, doesn't buy a bunch of new crap, and just pays it off. Good for you. Yeah. Awesome stuff. What was the debt? All student loans. All student loans.

Yeah. Okay. Very nice. So you just got after it. You're like, I don't like the sound of this. Yeah. Oh, I hated it. Yeah. So what was that after it. You're like, I don't like the sound of this. Yeah. Oh, I hated it. Yeah. So what was that moment? What led to it? What's the backstory to 15 months ago where you

go, I'm getting out of debt? Yeah. Well, I started at my first full-time job in November of 2019. And then in January, I was checking the website for student loans to see how much I had, and it was just a moment where you get so angry, you're spending hundreds of dollars, just the minimum payments back then, because I was way less than Ramsey-ish at the moment. And you see how little it goes towards principle and I just thought to myself I can't spend 10, 15, 20 years making these payments and being a slave to these people. So what'd you do? So at the very beginning I was resistant to budgeting and when my sister mentioned it to me I laughed it off because I thought it was

something that restricted me and I didn't know that it gave me permission and it felt like a raise, like what you guys say. And so, in January, I was just throwing a chunk of money at it every month, maybe 500, 600. And I didn't really have a detailed budget. And then probably towards spring, summer months, I got really intense. And by then it was, you know, 10% tithe and then 85,000 celebration moment with $3.21 at McDonald's and then just move on to the next Friday and just be expectant and be excited to keep making progress. That's incredible. I love that. What an absolute stud. How was, I mean, at some point, maybe month seven, when you're hanging out with mom and dad again on a Friday or Saturday night,

that had to be a beating. Even when they're like, hey, why don't you go hang out with other people? Because we're done talking to you. Well, John, his mom and dad might be cool. Probably not. They're cool. They're saying, we didn't anticipate our son how did you keep the drive up right because man after a couple of months you can white knuckle

this thing for a couple of months but there had to have been a temptation like i'm just gonna get my own apartment i i mean i'm gonna slow i can slow down a little bit but you kept going i kept going i kept going yeah there was there i could have moved into an apartment above my brother's house, but I didn't want to move there and then slow down at all. So I wanted to buckle down and to keep me motivated. I, the part-time job that I did was overnights on the weekends. So I'd work Monday through Friday and then Friday and Saturday night. And Saturday night, right after work, after the 11.30 to 8 a.m. shift, go to church, lead worship, eat a fantastic lunch by my cool mother.

And then fall asleep for a couple hours, wake up, and then do it all over again. So before we go forward, there's a lot of people that are rice and beans, beans and rice right now, and they want to know for $3.21 what the treat was at McDonald's. I know I want to know. What was it? Was it the same thing? A lot of times it was the same thing. I would get, I'm a big eater, so I would, you learn how to stretch those dollars.

Yeah, I want to know. What do you have? I would get two McChickens, large Dr. Pepper, a lot of refills, and then I had the receipt for the free Big Mac. So turned that in each time, did the code. See? All right. Now listen, that was his motivation. Did the code. See? All right. See? Now, listen. That was his motivation.

I love that right there. Two McChickens and a Big Mac for hustling all week long. I love it. And this year, you're going to be in the gym working off last year's celebration, which is going to be incredible. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

No judgment, John. No judgment. I think that's fantastic. Have you had the experience yet? Have you had your paycheck deposit into your account and you got no bills i have yeah feels good huh oh it feels great yeah because i paid off my loans on easter sunday initially i had planned to do it by my birthday and then it just kept moving up and up and so i paid off my loans and then it is crazy because when I was baby step two, I was so intense.

I would wait until midnight on Friday night, instantly make my budget, and then instantly have like $900, $1,000 to put towards the loans. So now I forgot the question. That's all right. Hey, tell folks real quick, what is the key to making it through this debt-free journey from your experience? What's the key? One of the big things for me was when I took the part-time job, all the exhaustion and being tired all the time, it was to have the right perspective. And you guys gave that to me. I'm reminded of the verse, you know, every good gift comes down from the Father above.

So even the tough shifts, they're a blessing too because they provide the money to get out of the debt. And the other verse, no discipline. Discipline seems pleasant at the time but painful. So if you're doing something if you're in a painful process if you're tired that usually means you're doing the right thing and it won't last for long

and I've experienced that too so now I got baby step 3 completed as well yes way to go who's your biggest cheerleader my mom and dad, big cheerleaders my dad would always send me a text when I was going to the overnight. Nice.

Proud of you. Keep going. Another $100 off the debt. And my mom. And is that mom with you here today in the lobby? It is, yeah. Okay, fantastic. Way to go, mom.

Yeah, my mom would encourage me to stick to the plan when I was so close and I wanted to take money out of Baby Step One because I hated the debt. Yeah. But she told me just stick to the plan. Stay in there, stay in there. Love it, love it, love it. All right. I also had – we took Financial Peace University at our church.

I talked to my mom and dad, and then we had another couple join our church. So then they did Financial Peace University. And a bunch of people from church got involved to the Shavers. So they encouraged me. Awesome. Great community there. Well, I've got to tell you something. We're proud of you, young man.

And the sky's the limit for you. You're off and running. You're a future millionaire. You're going to make a huge impact. And it's so obvious to all of us. So here we go. Luke from Albany, New York, paid off $34,000 in 15 months, making $34,000 to $42,000. Luke, let's hear your debt-free scream.

Three, two, one. I'm debt-free! Whoa! There it is. How about that? How about that? How about that? Quiet, soft-spoken, disciplined Luke just went into Hulk mode. There's some rage in there.

Those two loans will bring it out of you. And all those chicken sandwiches, too. Got to be some bad proteins in there. I don't know. We'll check it out. We'll check out that on the commercial break. This is the Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show.

I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, Dr. John Deloney. Thrilled to have you with us. The phone number to jump in is 888-825-5225. Today's scripture, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. All who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. That's Psalm 111, verse 10. Our quote today comes from Oliver Wendell Holmes. It is the province of knowledge to speak,

and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen. All right, let's go to Tim, who joins us online in Boston, Massachusetts. Tim, how can we help? Hello. Hi, Tim. Hi, thank you for your time. Well, I'm going to get straight to the point here. I am 29 years old. I paid off the last of my four-year degree early in 2020 after five years and five months of extreme budgeting. Thank you. And I'm thinking about going back to school, specifically, in this case, law school, and I was hoping to get opinions. Okay. Why law school? What's the reason for going? Something I've been thinking about doing

for five years now. I'm a firm believer that everybody should advance themselves in some way every single day, mentally, physically, career-wise, you name it. And I see it as an opportunity to advance my own career, build generational wealth, because my older sister and younger brother just had their first children, and it really does shape your perspective on everything.

Okay, so hold on one second. Let's pause there. Advance your career in what way? Are you already considering a legal career, or is this this new idea, and I'm just going to do it because being a lawyer is going to, I'm just curious how it's advancing your career. What's the big picture? I currently work in IT, and people I know have gone to law school, and they said it to being a lawyer is great. a good friend of mine, and works in a gigantic law firm out of Boston.

And, well, I think it's a good idea to advance my career because I, ironically, even though I work in IT, I have a fear that I'm going to get replaced by a robot in 10 years. Well, hold on one second, Tim. What do you do in IT? I work in the call center. I do level one. Okay. IT support.

Do you generally like IT work? How much enjoyment do you have around IT subjects, types of work? Have you wondered about an IT career? I'm just curious. Yes, I do like what I do. I always say I love and I hate the fact that it's always changing. Five years from now, who knows what we'll be doing because we didn't know what we were doing five years ago. Absolutely right. But the chances of you being replaced by a robot and technology are very slim. I think technology is the hottest industry there is. It's an industry in and of itself in

that, whether it's the nonprofit world, the ministry world, the medical world, big business, whatever, big education, there are technology jobs everywhere with cybersecurity as the next new frontier of threat around the world. Technology is not going anywhere. Here's the challenge that I have based on what you've said so far. The only answer I've heard, and you've said it basically twice, is that the reason you're looking at a law degree is to further your career and make more money. There's no mention of loving litigation, loving advocating for those. You know, I look at a lawyer.

Now, there's a lot of things. I've got a good friend. John and I share a very good friend who's an employment lawyer. World class. That's a path to being a judge. I mean, legal counsel and being a lawyer certainly is a lucrative career. However, it's also a lot of money. You've spent five years, your words, extreme budgeting, paying off your first degree.

I hear no love of the work, but I don't want to make this too philosophical for you. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to actually spend some time with some lawyers. Have you had a conversation with any actual lawyers and talked about their day-to-day work to where you have a pretty good idea which direction you would go in the legal field? Yes, I have, actually. Which direction would you go? I've been told that because of my background in IT that IP law would be a good direction.

Okay. Have you spent time with an IP lawyer or two or three? No. That's what I want you to do. You've got to check this stuff out or else you're going to get invested in something that is very expensive and again all i'm hearing is good career versus i hear that you really enjoy technology and i got to tell you i would want you to weigh side by side with what i've already told you to do john i'll let you weigh in here in just a second but but but i also want you to to look at what a future in technology looks like. What's a ladder in technology that would allow you to do work you really, really love and be pretty fired up about the results, not just choosing law, because of the financial benefits?

Tim, I spent five years as a senior administrator in a law school. And I've researched law student mental health and attorney mental health and folks who work with attorneys and here's what i'll tell you if you have a fire in your belly to be a writer if you have a fire in your belly to be a serve in service to the least of these in our communities to fight to advocate if you have a fire in your belly to put on a suit and go to war as an assassin every day, that's the field for you. 100% of the people that I met and that I worked with who went to law school to, quote, unquote, just make some money were miserable because the cost of law school not

financially the emotional psychological spiritual toll of law school it is hard it re it trains you how to see the world in a different way that you can never unsee it ken is exactly right you've got to spend some time with some IP lawyers and not like, I know a guy who just, no, go spend some time with some IP lawyers who've been doing this for a decade. Not someone who just quit being an IT exec and is now making some money at a big firm in Boston. Go ask some folks who've been through the ups and the downs and the massive transitions in the legal profession over the last few years. And also sit down and ask yourself, what do you want to do?

Not, I'm going to chase something and invest a whole bunch more money so that I can improve my career. What do you want to do, man? Ask yourself that question. Yeah, and I think what's going to head this off, John, Tim, here's the deal. Please do this. When you talk to lawyers

that are in that field, that particular persuasion of law, you find out what a day looks like, a week, and a month, and a year. And John, here's what you and I believe. You and I believe passionately about this. That the head and the heart work together beautifully to give us confirmation.

We make things a big, giant mystery. And here's the deal. You spend some time with some lawyers that are in that IP field and all that kind of stuff, and they start telling you all this stuff, your head's gathering information, right? This wonderful, beautiful brain we've got is the world's greatest computer. It sifts information and logic kicks in.

And then the heart gets all that information and it goes ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, or the family feud X. That's why I tell you... What does a day look like right that's what i'm saying you can't go to law school for something if you don't you can't yeah so you shouldn't ever make a major financial or educational commitment without sitting with people that do what you do that's why i wrote the proximity principle i wanted to demystify getting this

idea in my head of how do i get connected how How do I figure it out? And part of the proximity principle isn't about connections. It's just about clarify, verify. I got to get clear. What do you want to do? And then go, well, do I want to do that? I think I want to do that. But then when I find out about it, I might go, oh my gosh. Most people have no idea.

No clue what's involved. How hard being a lawyer is. Yeah. How, what it does to your soul, what the actual job looks like. Very few people know what that's like. You've got to go talk to them. You've got to find out. Every single student that came into school and said, I want to go do this because I want to serve here.

I want to help here. I love the fight. I love the grind. I love writing. They are extraordinary. I'm still in contact with a lot of them. I was with one this weekend, right? She came to an event I did.

Those who just said, I just want to go get rich. Yep. Or I just want to go. And this isn't just law, by the way. This is any career. See, I heard nothing in there to say, you know what? I've always been an advocate. Yeah.

And I want to be a lawyer because I want to fight for people. Or I'm an incredible writer. Yeah. I want to just. Or I want to move the hearts and minds of people. I want to mine the world for more IP stuff. I didn't hear any of that. It was just, oh, I've seen my friends have kids.

It's waking me up to the fact I need more money. Wrong answer. That's exactly right. Appreciate the call. I want to thank my colleague, Dr. John Deloney. Always fun hanging out with you, pal. I want to thank our producer, James Childs, our associate producer and call screener, Kelly Daniel, and, of course, you, America.

Thank you for listening. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, it's Kelly, associate producer and phone screener for The Ramsey Show. If you would like to do your debt-free scream live on the show, make sure you visit theramseyshow.com and register. We would love for you to come to Nashville and tell Dave your story.