The Ramsey Show - App - It’s a Compliment When Dave Calls You Weird. Because Normal Is Broke. (Hour 2)

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions Broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. This is your show, America. Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.

Courtney's in Kentucky. Hi, Courtney. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi. Hi, what's up? Well, I've got a question about vehicles. Okay. So we are in baby step two, and we've tightened our budget,

and we have three vehicles currently. We have an old van that is paid for, and then we have a truck and a car that both have a loan. And so my question is, should we sell the van or should we sell one of the vehicles we have a loan? What do you owe on the vehicles? We owe $12,085. Okay. What's your household income? About $85,000.

And how much other debt do you have? We have $45,000 total. Total, and 20 of it is cars? Yes. Okay, and what's the other 25? We have some house repair loans and student loans and one credit card. Okay, and how long have you been getting out of debt? We just started this process, but we've looked at our snowball,

and we feel like we can be debt-free in 15 months. Okay. All right. And what's the van worth? Probably about $2,000. Why do you have it? Well, we decided to keep it because at the time that we got the other vehicles, we didn't feel like we could get much out of it as a trade-in.

And it still ran and it was paid for, so we kept it. Just a spare? Well, it was like to go on vacations and things like that because if we take people with us, family when we go on vacations and things like that because if we take people with us, family, when we go on vacations and things like that. I see. Okay.

Well, you'll be renting something when you go on vacations. I would not have a van sitting in the driveway in case I wanted to take someone else on vacation. Well, that's why we're going to try to get rid of one of these vehicles. I would get rid of the van. The van is the one that you don't want, don't need, and should have already sold, and so I'd just get rid of one of these vehicles i would get rid of the van the van is the one that you don't want don't need and should have already sold and so i just get rid of it the rule of thumb we use on cars is this when someone asks the question should i sell my car to get out of debt two two two things have to come up one is the total of your vehicles needs to be less than half your annual income yours is okay the second rule is can i be debt free everything but my home

in two years if i keep these vehicles and i like the vehicles and you can be 15 months and i agree with your 15 months based on the numbers you gave me that's pretty good numbers okay so um that that'll be our plan and what i would do sell the van and work your 15 months, reduced by whatever you get for the van. That'll slow down. Might be 14 months now. Okay. All right. Thank you.

That make sense to you? Yep. I got it. Perfect. Thanks for the call. We appreciate you joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Connor is with us in Colorado.

Hey, Connor, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave, thanks for taking my call. I appreciate it. Certainly. How can I help? So my grandmother is 78 years old. She came down to my house on Sunday, and we looked over her finances. She has $10,500 in credit card debt, $22,000 in a mortgage, and $50,000 in a HELOC.

She has $12,000 in savings and $84,000 in... Okay, wait a minute. Start that again. I got lost. Start again. You have $10,000 in what? I'm sorry. So she has $10,500 in credit cards, $22,000 in a mortgage on a condo, $50,000 in a HELOC. Okay. She lived in a condo? Yes, sir.

Okay. And the HELOC's on the condo as well? Yes, sir. She's 78, and she has no money? She has $12,000 in savings and $84,000 in 401Ks. The condo is probably worth $270,000. Okay. And what's her income? $2,400 a month. So that's social security and working as well.

Okay. And your question is what? So I know with the baby steps, cash out the $12,000, pay off the $10,500 in credit cards, that leaves her fifteen hundred but i'm wondering i know you say not to cash out retirement unless to avoid um bankruptcy or foreclosure but i'm wondering at 78 years old is it better to just clear up the mortgage and the heloc or one or the other i would love to clear them both up but it would leave her with absolutely no money right and i don't i don't want to do that um so i i will take the step of cleaning up the credit cards as long as she cuts them up and gets

on a budget of course they have to be chopped up never touch a freaking credit card again and i gave her your book probably about a year ago and she hasn't used the credit cards in a year but she's only been making the minimum so that's why she came down so we could kind of talk through this together. But I honestly didn't know what the 401Ks and the HELOC and the mortgage was. Yeah, if there was $800,000 in there, I'd use it in a heartbeat because she's over retirement age and she's got no penalties. But I just don't want to use her last dime to clear up her debt on her condo. So what I'd do is get rid of the credit card debt let's live on a tight budget

and let's begin to uh you know push on some of these other things at some point she may want to look up and knock off the mortgage or the heloc or combine them or uh she may want to move into something smaller that she could pay cash for okay if she moved into something if she's only got seventy thousand dollars in debt and it's worth 270 if she can move into something for 200 000 should be debt free right yep i'm trying to get her to move down closer to us where it's cheaper but uh it's uh it's a work in progress yeah i would say that's probably a second step let's start with a budget a real budget tight watching what she's doing no credit cards at all and cut the credit cards up and let's rebuild her emergency fund out of her meager income

and let's just work on that and work on her discipline for a little while and then probably in a year i'm gonna have i'm gonna really start pushing to sell this condo all right thank you she's probably gonna get tired of fighting against this I'm going to really start pushing her to sell this condo. All right. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate it. She's probably going to get tired of fighting against this. And if she had no – I would just keep saying, what would it feel like to have no payments?

Yeah, and that's the thing is the HELOC, she tells me every time she looks at it, it just scares her and she doesn't know what to do. And I said, well, I'll give Dave a call. Yes, she does. She can move to a smaller condo. She knows what to do. Okay. Okay.

You know, just keep saying that and just go, well, I know it scares you, and I don't blame you. I'm kind of scared for you, too. That's why I'm suggesting a smaller condo. You do what you want to do, Grandma, but when you get tired of the stress of the HELOC, you will move into a condo that you pay cash for. And that would work perfect, right?

I mean, because that sets her up. She's only got $2,400 income. She's got $85,000 in her retirement at that point. She's got her emergency fund rebuilt with the sweat of her brow right now, all of that. And, yeah, she's going to be in pretty good shape then. So that's the plan. Hey, man, thanks for the call. Thank you for helping your grandma.

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Good to have you guys. Where do you live? We live in Parker, Colorado, a suburb of Denver. Very cool. Welcome to Nashville and all the way over here to do a debt-free scream. Absolutely. Love it. How much have you paid off? Just nearly $170,000. How long did this take? Almost exactly four years. Very good. And your range of income during that time? I started out making about $80,000 and this year right around on $150,000. Okay, wow, that's a nice jump. What do you guys do for a living? I am a software engineer for a defense contractor. And I am a school counselor. Great, very cool. What kind of debt was the $170,000? Well, quite a bit of everything, Dave.

Normal like everybody else, but a huge portion of it, $86,000 with student loans. We had a car payment in there, a bunch of credit cards, and a little tiny pop-up camper. Wow, you had everything. Yes, we did. I love it. Well, congratulations, you guys. So, what started this process four years ago? Tell me story well um it started before that obviously like everybody else's story we were not handling our finances together like you preach and about four years ago we went on a family vacation to Disneyland in California and on credit I'm sure there was some credit involved on that trip um a big I know there was a brand new car we just bought for the trip so we could fit everybody in it because we had

some other family with us yeah uh and on the way back I was driving and everybody had their tablets or devices in front of them and I was scanning through the radio to try to find some talk radio to listen to and and ran across this crazy guy talking about getting out of debt and um i listened to it until we lost the broadcast and we stopped to use the restroom and i downloaded the iheart radio app and continued listening for you know another three hours or so wow got a big double dose of it that day. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So coming home from vacation just screwed up everything.

It did. Changed our lives forever. I love it. Well, congratulations. Very well done. So what do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? Budget. Budget and intention.

Yep. Intentionality. budget and intention yep intentionality um not being afraid to say no to friends and family and um even to these guys right they had to make a few sacrifices themselves too so say a no and and sticking to it i understand wow very cool very cool so who were your biggest cheerleaders well um along the journey i I helped a couple friends meet Dave Ramsey, and they started their own debt-free journeys as well. And my best friend actually is 100% debt-free right now because of it. I have another coworker who paid off his car earlier than what he wanted to because of you. And those two guys were very inspirational and definitely cheering us on along the way.

Very cool. Very cool. Good for you guys. What was the hardest part of this for you all? Getting on the same page. And especially I think our biggest budget issue was groceries for the family. And so really just getting on that same page and realizing that we could stick to a budget and we didn't have to go outside of that. And it still worked.

We're here. We ate. I understand. Okay. So what was the big issue on groceries? What was the deal? I just felt like we weren't going to be able to buy the types of fresh produce and things that I like to buy. I love to cook, and I thought we were going to be eating less healthy, and that wasn't the case. Okay.

She just kind of had to work through and go, here's the amount. Now how can I make this work? Right. And rather than oh well we just have to be you know we just have to eat unhealthy and whatever cheap stuff yeah okay very cool good for you guys well it is a process to kind of walk through and uh once you take something off the table and you say we're not borrowing money and we're going to have a set amount uh and you know we have a guideline whatever that is and we come up with the guideline

we're in charge of it so you know it's not like somebody else is telling us what to do but once you have that it causes you to to look and see things differently absolutely yeah very well done you guys very well done we're proud of you thanks dave how's it feel 170 000 i mean you gotta feel like you lost 300 pounds yeah yeah. Very relieving. That's for sure. Yeah. I mean, every dollar, you know, extra that we were making was going towards paying off debt. And it was, you know, such a long journey and it felt like it was never going to end. And even when you get down to the last debt and the last debt's like, you know, nearly $60,000, you're like, well, there's only one left, but it's a lot of money still. That's student loan debt.

Yeah. Yes, sir. Whose was that? Both of you? Yes. We both had student loans, yeah, but mine was a little smaller. So when we got to the end, it was a master's degree that we still had to pay off. Okay.

Very cool. Good for you guys. Very well done. Woo-hoo! Got a copy of Chris Hogan's book for you, Everyday Millionaires, because that's what you're going to be now that you got rid of the pop-up tent camper. Yes. Yes, we did.

I love it. So very well done, you guys. So proud of you guys. All right. And your kids' names and ages? This is Tyler. He's 12. And this is Cameron, and she's 9.

And we also have a 23-year-old in college. All right. Very cool. We're at the University of Wyoming. We're all cowboys. There we go. Very good. I love it.

Love it. Well, well done. All right. Jeremy and Kelly, Tyler and Cameron, the Denver, Colorado area, $170,000 paid off in four years, making $80,000 to $150,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one.

We're debt-free! We're debt-free! Well done, you guys. Very well done. Love it, love it, you guys. Very well done. Love it, love it, love it. Man, that is fabulous. So perfect. Open phones this hour at 888-825-5225.

That's 888-825-5225. How many times do we do a debt-free scream, and the bulk of the debt was student loan debt? You know, when I first started doing this 30 years ago, that wasn't the case. The big debts were car debt and credit card debt. And now we hear credit card debt, and we always hear car debt, but we don't always, the big one, I mean, over half of their $170,000 when they started their debt snowball was student loan debt. And it's just gotten to be a serious problem.

Anthony O'Neill is out touring America today. His book tour continues on his best-selling book, Debt-Free Degree, how the step-by-step guide to getting your kid through college without student loans. You can go to college without student loans. You can, you should, you must show your child how to go to college without student loans. It's all in Anthony's book. It's not magic. It's not mystical. This isn't the secrets of the rich.

You already know how to go to college without student loans. You just didn't like it. The way you do it is you go to a school you can afford. That's the biggest thing. Oh, and while you're there, study something you can actually get a job doing. Oh, and while you're there, be sure you're getting scholarships. Oh, and while you're there, be sure you work a lot, making good money at a good job, not $7 an hour.

And then you can go to school debt-free. And there's a lot more to this, but that's the basics of it. I mean, debt-free degree will show you how to do it. Anthony's signing his books in Colorado Springs tonight at the Barnes & Noble on Citadel Drive. Colorado Springs, Barnes & Noble, Citadel Drive, 6 o'clock tonight. Anthony O'Neill is there in your town doing media today and has a book signing tonight. We're giving away $500 cash, no purchase necessary. Must be present to win. Must be 18 or older to win.

$500 cash. Come out, meet Anthony, hear his talk on debt-free degree. No purchase necessary. Must be present to win. Must be 18 or older to win. $500 cash. Come out, meet Anthony. Hear his talk on debt-free degree for free. Pick up a copy of his book, Debt-Free Degree. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Robert and Jessica are with us. Hey, guys. How are you? Hi, Dave.

Welcome, welcome. Where do you guys live? Little Rock, Arkansas. Very fun. And all the way over here to do a debt-free scream. Yes. Good. How much you paid off?

We paid off $97,000. All right. And how long did this take? months 40 months good for you and your range of income during that time 72 up to 98 000 great what do y'all do for a living i'm a product coordinator and i'm a police officer very cool good for you guys what kind of debt was the 97 000 almost 100 000 the house you paid off your house yes i'm looking at weird people it's completely debt free now awesome we own it oh that's so cool so what's the house worth about 125 000 very neat and it's completely yours completely ours would you ever have thought yes it was our plan it was your plan from the day one? Her plan. Your plan. Okay, so how long have you two been married? About five years. Five years and about

two weeks. Okay, so three years and four months of the five years you've been working on this plan. Yes. So tell me the story. What happened? How'd you get started on all this? It kind of started back when we got engaged because I was a money nerd and I wanted to get him on board with the money plan. So as soon as we got engaged, we started working off paying off his debt because I was debt free at the time and already had an emergency fund. So we spent that year, got the wedding, got two receptions paid for, and then we got married. That first year after we got married, I wanted to save up 20% of the house. So we did nothing that first year after we got married.

Saved up 20%. Went in, bought the house. And then after that, it was pretty much game on. Good. We took the 15-year mortgage, like you said, 20% down payment. And I knew I wanted that thing gone because we had already been debt-free prior to buying that house. Right. Had that feeling, knew the game plan, and we pretty much just lived on the budget.

Here's the plan. Month to month, I mean, we scrimped, we saved. I mean, there was nights that he would work and then come home and take care of the son to avoid paying a babysitter. Wow. Like, it was just, we would give $20 allowance. Wow. Yeah, like she said, there were many times I was working the night shift during that time, and I would get home at 6.30, 7 o'clock in the morning,

and our babysitter would fall through, and so I'd have to stay up all day. While she was at work watching our child until she could get home at 6 o'clock in the evening, and then I could get a few hours of sleep before going back to work that night. Wow. Definitely felt the sacrifices that we were making. Amen. Amen. Very cool.

Was it worth it? Absolutely. How old are you two? 32, both of us. And you have a paid-for house? Yes. You're so weird. I'm okay with that.

I just love how weird you are. You're incredibly weird. Yes. Very nice, you guys. Congratulations. Thank you. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? Stick with it.

Make your plan. Stick to it. Don't deviate from it, even for little things. It may seem like it'll be worth it at the time, but the bigger picture is much more worth it. I think knowing your why and going through the – I mean, things are going to come up day to day that want to get off the budget or change the plan. But just know what your why is and what, at the end of the goal, having that debt-free house or having that student loan paid off or having the car be yours. The freedom that you get by being debt-free, no one – I mean, it's an amazing feeling that's just really hard to describe until you feel it. I mean, it changes everything.

You get freedom. If you don't like your job, you can go and change it. If something happens, it just gives you a much more confidence. I mean, you're 32 years old. You make $100,000. You don't have a payment in the world, not even a house payment. Yes. The sense of freedom on that is amazing.

Absolutely. It is. It's a game changer. Yeah. I mean, anybody who's listening that's even on the, you know, can't decide to do it, figure out what your why and go for it. Yeah. You've got to have a big reason. Yes. And it's got to be more than just getting out of debt. It's listening that's even on the, you know, can't decide to do it, figure out what your why and go for it. Yeah, you got to have a big reason. Yes.

And it's got to be more than just getting out of debt. It's so that. You got to have the so that. Right. Yeah. Well done, you guys. Very, very well done. We're so proud of y'all.

Thank you. So who were your biggest cheerleaders? A little bit of each other, and then we had some friends and family along the way, but I think definitely each other of just sticking to it. Because then we were at it for, I mean, almost five years. Our entire marriage was really this plan. I mean, we had to be on the same page since we said I do. I mean, we knew what our plans was, getting that 20% down payment, getting the house paid for.

I would say rocking each other on like what that is. What's the next big plan? What are you going to do? I think at this point, I think it's to replace one of our vehicles once we have that saved up to pay cash, of course. Our cars are getting a little old. You're going to do something a little bit luxurious other than that? Something fun? At this point, that feels kind of luxurious to us.

Yeah, so he's still driving a Honda Fit, so you can see how tall he is. He's still getting into that little vehicle. Very small car, yeah. He needs a bigger truck. I guess so. All right. Very cool, you guys. Well, very, very good. We got a copy of Chris Hogan's book for you, Everyday Millionaires.

That is the next chapter in your story for real. And here come the babies into the picture. What are the babies' names and ages? I have Max. He's two and a half. And this i have max he's two and a half and this is riley she's two and a half months two and a half months wow and i'm looking at a family tree that has been completely changed yes absolutely very well done you guys are heroes very cool very cool those babies lives will never be the same and they don't even know why yet

no they don't because we started it with him. I mean, she was born afterwards, so she'll never know what her parents have done in her family. Yeah. Wow. Absolutely wonderful. Very cool stuff. All right, Robert and Jessica, Max and Riley, Little Rock, Arkansas, $97,000 paid off in 40 months.

That's the house and everything. Man, I love it. Making 78 to 98, debt-free at 32 years old. That's rocking it. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Ready? Three, two, one.

We're debt-free! I love it well done you guys very very well done man that's fabulous stuff right there so you can do it too all they had was a they just had a bee in their bonnet man

they just said I'm not living like this I'm not going to be stuck in a hole I'm not going to be normal I'm not going to be mediocre I'm not going to be average not me we're going to do things differently and then they made a decision to get after it and look at them they're completely debt-free house and everything i mean that's strange if you didn't know if you've just joined the dave ramsey show me calling you weird is one of the greatest compliments you can ever get because normal is broke. Normal sucks.

Normal is in debt. Normal is Sally Blaze been around so long you think she's a pet. Normal is master card. Normal is discovered bondage. Normal is American distress. Normal is a fleeced car in the driveway. Normal is a student loan debt on a degree that isn't even usable normal is not good you don't want to be normal your goal is weird 78 percent of americans that's almost eight out of ten live paycheck to paycheck you don't want to be normal

the number one cause of divorce in north america today money fights and money problems You don't want to be normal. The number one cause of divorce in North America today, money fights and money problems. You don't want to be normal. The average college graduate right now, $35,000 in student loan debt. You don't want to be average. You don't want to be normal. Normal sucks. Normal is no fun. Normal is I work all my life and I hope the government, which is well known for its ability to handle money, will take care of me. You don't want to be normal. Normal is I work all my life and I hope the government, which is well known for its ability to handle money, will take care of me. You don't want to be normal. Normal is all the money goes in and all the money goes out and only the names are changed to protect the innocent. Normal is about the time I get the car paid down to what it's actually worth because it went down faster than the loan did. I go start the whole stupid cycle over again and get a new car payment. Normal is living life

car payment to car payment. Normal is the little man can't get ahead. Normal is thank God it's Friday. Oh God, it's Monday. You don't want to be normal. You want to have a vision where there is no vision. The people perish. You need to look at yourself in the mirror and say you're the problem and oh by God, you're the solution too. You're the hero in your story. Get up off your butt and go change things. You don't want to be normal. You don't want to act like all these mediocre, normal people.

Normal is not a plan. Don't have normal kids. Don't have a normal career. Don't have a normal life. Be exceptional. Have a vision. Where there is no vision, the people perish. Don't be normal. This

is the Dave Ramsey Show. We'll be right back. thank you for joining us america we're glad you are here this is the dave ramsey show open phones at 888-825-5225. Nash is with us in Texas. Hi, Nash. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I have a question about deciding whether to use savings that are intended for retirement to pay off debt, consumer debt, like credit card debt. I'm 62 years old, would like to retire in 8 to 10 years, and I'm wrestling with this dilemma. Now, in my case, these investments are in annuities. So can you give advice on that? The only investments you have, the only money you have are in annuities.

Correct. For now, that is correct. Okay. How much credit card debt do you have? A little under $90,000. Good Lord. Okay. I agree.

And how much do you have in annuities? Around $500,000. Okay. And are you past all your surrender charges? Has it been in annuities? Around $500,000. Okay. And are you past all your surrender charges? Has it been in there seven years? No. They are about four years from that point, so they've been in there three years. Okay.

So what does it cost you to take the money out of the annuity? There's no penalty. There's no tax penalty because you're over 59 1⁄2. Correct. But they're going to hit you with a surrender charge. Yes, sir, and it depends on which annuity. And they're not horrendous, but to be honest, I don't know those figures. Well, that's what you would look at.

And when you find that figure out, you say, in effect, the lost money is like the interest rate on you borrowing money to pay off the credit cards. Right. So if you're losing 10% of your money in order to pull it out of the annuity, then that's like paying 10% interest on a loan to pay off your credit cards. So what's your household income? Total, about $185,000. Okay, let's just pay off these credit cards without messing with these annuities. I'm pretty sure you're going to get dinged enough that you would not pay that same amount of ding in interest rate to pay off a credit card. And you make $185,000.

It's time to get on a budget cut up the credit cards and let's just say you know we're going to pay off 45 000 a year that leaves us 155 000 to live on i think i can earn 645 000 to live on i think i can pull this off um and you pay off 45 000 a year and in two years you're debt free it's time to get on a budget anyway. It is. It is. So I think you probably cash flow your debt reduction rather than using the annuities. If the money was completely free and clear and there would be no ding on it by pulling it out, would I use $90,000 of $500,000 in my 60s to be debt-free?

Yes, I would. It still leaves you $400,000. You make really good money. You can still build up a lot of money in the next eight to ten years uh but in this case i think you're going to find as you get into the details on how much it's going to cost you to cash this out that it's not going to be that fun i think that's what you're going to figure out so hey thanks for the call. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You jump in. We'll talk about your life and your money.

Naomi is with us. Naomi is in Texas. Hi, Naomi. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

Well, quick backstory. The end of August, we put our house on the market to buy a bigger house to start becoming foster parents. But we stupidly used the last of our savings to do a small remodel on it. And two weeks after my husband got laid off and we were left with no way to pay our bills and all of that. So, um, we went about six weeks without any income, barely made it by, by the grace of God, but he found a job. Um, but it is paying about 25,000 less a year. And my question is, um, if the job that he was previously doing opens up again, should he take that back with the risk of the instability? This is the second time he's got laid off from it in a year.

Or should he stick with the stable job that he has now and just stay on a super tight budget to get all of our debt and everything paid off? Neither one of these choices sound really fun. No. So let's pick another choice. There's more than two choices. Let's take a job that pays. Let's get a stable job that pays more than his old unstable job. Well, the type of field he's in, there's not a whole lot of options.

He's a plumber. He's been a plumber for 12 years. And outside of working in the union, which is where he was before, everything pays less. Well, that would not be true. If you own a plumbing company with 25 plumbers working for you, that pays more. This is true.

Okay. So this idea that there's only two options, again, is not true. There's other options. So how old is he? He is 32. Okay. So what does he want to be doing when he's 42, 52, 62, that's stable and pays more? What kind of plumbing work is he going to be doing when he's 42 52 62 that's stable and pays more what kind of plumbing work is he going to be doing this stable and pays more that's what he needs to be moving towards

okay what happened was you guys forced yourself into a series of stupid decisions with some more stupid decisions and so you're living in fear is what's happening rather than living in abundance and so i don't blame you i've been there too i understand i'm not picking on you but i mean you know it was like the world's worst timing to use this money to remodel the house and then he gets laid off well then you get desperate so he has to just take whatever he can get and then you start to think like the glass is half empty instead of the glass is half full so i don't care which one of these you take, but neither one of them are your long-term answer.

Would you agree with that? Oh, definitely, for sure. Then let's figure out what the long-term answer is and start aiming at that. In the meantime, you take what you can get in front of you, and you feed your kids, right? Yeah, definitely. And you pay your bills, but that's your short-term answer and i don't want you waking up four years from now and go well he's always made less after he got out of that union thing but that's just the way it is

no that's not the way it is it's the way you decided to accept it to be but but it's okay to do it as a short-term thing because anything's better than sitting at home so let's go do something right and make a little money and pay the light bill and put some food on the table that's a good plan i like all of that but um as quickly as you can you start thinking long term and go okay what is what is he going to be doing when he's 42 and what are the steps to get there i'll send you a copy of ken coleman's, which will help you with that. That's the proximity principle, the proven step-by-step strategy that will lead you to the career you love. And it'll help him work through this idea because I want him to back up a little bit and say, how can I use these plumbing skills, licenses, training that I have to create more income than I've ever made and it be stable.

And that's a glass half full approach. And I don't know exactly off the top of my head how to do that, but I'm promising you it is one of the options that is not currently on the table to be considered, and it needs to be. And that's your long-term answer. And then that changes the short-term answer of which one do i do do i take the unstable big paying job or the stable underpaying job both answers suck which one do i want to do neither but i'm going to do either one on the short term until i get to do my big deal deal that's the my glass half full deal. And that's what you lay out.

Hey, thanks for the call. Every time in my life, folks, that I get desperate, right after I get desperate, I get stupid. And that's one of the reasons the emergency fund is so important. When you get to baby step three and you have the fully funded emergency fund, it gives you margin. It gives you the ability to think. It's not just the math of it. There's a part of you that relaxes and keeps you from going over in desperation.

And when you're in desperation, you boil life down to two bad choices and think you have to pick one of the two bad choices. Everybody does that. Not just her, not just me, not just you. Everybody has a tendency that way. That's why these things we're teaching are so important, because they give you the margin to have a vision for your life again. That puts this hour of The Dave Ramsey Show. If you would like to do your debt-free scream live on the show, make sure you visit DaveRamsey.com slash show and register.

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