The Ramsey Show - App - It's OK to Have a New Job Strategy Temporarily (Hour 1)

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. You jump in, we'll talk about your life and your money. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality and host of The Ken Coleman Show, number one bestselling author of the book The Proximity Principle, is here to talk about jobs. And man, oh man, oh man, jobs are big right now. It's big. It's big. You know, we're bracing for, you know, more bad news, obviously, and I just want people to understand that this is part of the situation where the economy has obviously been artificially forced to pause. And so let me get this cord around there.

There we go. And so understand that when you see more of the stuff out there, that this is a cycle, and it's a short cycle. We're seeing more and more good news every day, Dave. We're starting to see the very reason why we paused this economy, we're starting to see the health situation get better. And that's something to be optimistic about. And I'm also optimistic that when we get to do life again and get back into the economy, that we're going to see a lot of those jobs come back. So right now, just trying to help people do what they need to do in the short term. As you and Rachel and I talked about in our message of hope, control the

controllables. And if you've got to get one or two part-time jobs or a full-time job in a field, an industry that you're not wanting to be in, that's okay. Swallow the pride. This is about doing what you have to do so that you can do what you need to do and want to do. So it's okay to have a new strategy, a short-term strategy. Then we can adjust back to the long-term. Yeah. We were talking last night, and Rachel asked us all to go around the room and family, Ramsey family, and say, you know, what was your takeaway or what's going to be your takeaway from this shutdown time? And then what is it you miss that you're looking forward to get going again?

It was kind of a good dinner conversation. But almost every single person went around and said, I think I didn't realize I was too busy. And this demanded on a personal level that everyone slow down. And our addiction to adrenaline, our addiction to the schedule, I'm real efficient. I work my butt off. I like getting things done. I don't like being slowed down against my will. Personal, on a personal level i mean you know so but you know there is some things from an employment standpoint that you can take away from this and i thought you know some people sitting around that table not at that particular

table but at your table maybe at home yeah those of you listening they might say you know what i figured out was um i was just working this job that i didn't like. And now it's gone. And when I replace it, I'm going to replace it with something I like. That's absolutely right. It's 80% of the world. So the number internationally is 80% of people were unfulfilled in their work. Two major reasons for that. One, you might have been good at the work, but there's no connection to it. The work wasn't creating a result that really mattered to you, or maybe the culture of the company wasn't aligning with your values. And then the second reason is it's just bad leaders. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad leaders out there. And we know from research, Dave, that

people don't leave companies, they leave leaders. And I'm excited with what we're doing with Entree Leadership. I'm excited with what we're doing at the ken coleman show to come at this thing and just as you said this may not have been the reboot that you wanted you didn't want to get kicked out of the nest but you've been kicked out of the nest and so this is the opportunity for you to say you know what never again never again i'm not going to work for a toxic jerk i'm not going to work around a bunch of toxic people i'm not going to work at something i hate i'll tell you something else that I think is going to happen. One of the few things that shifted and survived, we had this wonderful unity after 9-1-1, after the terrorists attacked the towers in New York. America had an incredible unity.

Everyone was an American. They weren't a Democrat or Republican. They weren't white or black or Asian. They weren't Southern or Northern. They were American. We were Americans. And then that dissipated over time, and we got back to fighting again, each other. But one thing that survived that was a noticeable shift in our appreciation for our military. And it's very rare to find anyone on any side of the aisle now who says they don't appreciate our military.

And before 9-1-1, that wasn't always true. And it's not 100% ever because there's always some weirdo out there. But most people that you run into say thank you for your service you know and i think that's going to happen uh for teachers because parents who were not homeschooling who have had the opportunity to try to do that uh will never again that's right take a teacher for granted it's the truth yeah i think the same thing's true of health care workers i think we're gonna always you know first responders and uh military after 9-1-1 everybody said i mean the the phrase first responder yeah didn't even exist yeah in the in the public vernacular prior

to 9-1-1 that's right but after that when those firemen ran into those burning buildings to save people's lives after that we said you know first responders when those firemen ran into those burning buildings to save people's lives, after that, we said, you know, first responders, when those ambulances were covered in rubble, they were down there trying to help people. After that, first responders are heroes. And we said, okay, first policemen, firemen, you know, EMTs, whatever. And I think we're going to come out of that with the nurses and the docs on this round. You're absolutely right.

And why? There's a commonality there between the first responders and the military people who put their lives on the line for our liberty. Policemen put their lives on the line for our safety. Firemen put their lives on the line for safety. Doctors, nurses, everybody involved on the front lines, they put themselves ahead. Excuse me, they put others in front of themselves. They put others' needs, others' futures ahead of their own. Is there anything more heroic than that? We talk about that with generosity all the time, that generosity is highly attractive.

Yeah. And I really think that's one of the things we're going to one of the positives we're going to come out of this there's a reset yeah in a whole new generation's brain on those two areas medical and teaching let me add one that i hope happens and i think you'll resonate with this i hope a large swath of the american population appreciates big business and because we've made big business the bad guy and you and i don't like that and we talk about that at entre leadership but here's what we're seeing big businesses stepping up in unprecedented ways and donating their profits donating their time the number of ceos and leadership teams that are taking pay cuts yes in half or down to nothing is unprecedented

yeah stepping up. I've never seen it before like this. They didn't do that in 2008. They did not. Not like they're doing for this. That's right. There's some commonality to this that there's some unselfishness there. And certainly small business is doing it.

But small business doesn't even have a choice. Right. They're getting hammered. Well, they're the everyday heroes. But I just hope that there's a lot of you listening right now that will appreciate that the private sector, we can do a lot, too. We don't always have to rely

on government. The private sector, in my opinion, that's where the real solutions come. So yay for big business, yay for healthcare workers, yay for teachers, and yay for all of you for being humans and saying, we're not going to let this thing beat us we've got this we will rise again amen ken coleman with me this hour the phone number you

want to talk about your jobs or your money the phone number 888-825-5225 lines are open jump in For most of us, health care costs seem to increase every year, and saving money on health insurance feels more and more out of reach. For example, take the Olcheski family from LaGrange, Texas. Jeff and Cherise had just celebrated the birth of a new baby boy. Shortly after, they had a health scare involving one of their kids that was completely unexpected. With today's health care climate, this could have bankrupted them. But thanks to Christian Health Care Ministries, the Olcheskis were spared from a ton of medical bills. As members of Christian Health Care Ministries,

they're part of a group of believers who financially and spiritually support each other. CHM is the original health cost sharing ministry and is a Better Business Bureau accredited charity. It's biblical, affordable, and it's shared nearly $97,000 to help the Olcheskis. To be a part of Christian Healthcare Ministries, visit chministries.org. That's chministries.org. CHM is a proud sponsor of Dave Ramsey Live Events. chministries.org. Jenny is with us in tennessee hi jenny welcome to the day ramsey show hi dave thanks for taking my call sure how can ken and i help

so we are in a very unique housing situation we sold our house and moved to tennessee actually really close to the Ramsey headquarters. And we're renting because we wanted to kind of get a feel for the area before we bought. Our lease is up come June. And right when we started to get serious about home buying, the market just came to a screeching halt. And we're wondering what we should do next. Our landlord wants to renew our lease for a year, so we don't have the option for total flexibility there, and our rent is pretty high, and we're wondering what your feel on that.

Are you out of debt? Hello? What was that? Are you out of debt? Yes. Yes, we have no debt and we're sitting on a hefty down payment from the profit on our last sale is your are your jobs stable right now yes but you know we don't know what the future holds well what do you do what do you guys

do um i'm in pr and my husband is in the oil industry, actually, so that's a little bit more volatile. But for right now, yes, we're stable. Okay. Due to corona shutdown, what would you say the percentage of you all being in trouble is more than it was? Five percent? More chance that you have a problem if i both of our industry both of our um jobs have told us that there's not a lot of risk for our yeah current jobs but i would buy a house but again we don't know okay so then that brings me to my second question would you buy an interim house or your actual house that you want to be in

long term because we started to kind of play with the numbers and thought well maybe we buy a house that's less expensive that we could kind of turn into a future rental, but that might not be our forever home, and then kind of let the market do what it's going to do, or would you just go all in? Probably wouldn't have gone all in to start with. There's no such thing as a forever home. No one stays in a home forever. Their lives change, your life, your demographics of the people that live forever their lives change your life your your uh demographics of the people that live under your roof change and your your needs and your wants change and your finances change and so your dreams change so your dream homes change i've had four dream homes in my life i like it so uh four forever homes There's no such thing. It's, you know, there's very few things that are forever.

A tattoo and a spouse. Not even everybody makes it with a spouse. But the, yeah. So, anyway, I would do a regular purchase because I'm not going to tell you to keep the other house as a rental unless you pay it off and you pay cash for the next house. And you're not going to be ready to do that right yeah we don't we don't do we don't keep the house before as a rental if we're keeping debt on it okay and if it causes debt on the next one so anyway all that to say i would buy a moderate to nice house that i would have bought anyway and i would do it whenever

you want to get around to it before June before your lease is up I think you're going to see I don't think you're going to see a if we get back to work in three or four weeks most people okay now I know there's hot spots and I know there's a lot of discussion but if we get back to work in three or four months there's a mess okay but if we get back in three or four weeks, most people, then you're probably not going to see real estate prices take a dive. What you are going to see is a buyer's market in that there's a lot of sellers and not a lot of buyers. And so if you're standing there with a good down payment

and you're an actual willing buyer and you're ready to close this week or next week, you're a unicorn. And so you should be able to get at least a bargain on the house you want okay uh now i'm not saying you're going to get 50 off or something like that but i mean you ought to at least get it it's no longer a white hot seller's market in williamson county where you live and it was 90 days ago right right but i think that because the houses haven't depreciated like they might like you said there's that big question mark sellers still have this confidence that they're going to get what they're well but the question is that when are

they going to get it okay if you've got a house for sale right now you're probably not going to have to take a price cut if you're willing to wait till september to sell it but buyers are going to come out of their caves slowly and so the buyer market the buyer supply the supply of buyers for these houses that are up for sale are going to if you want to sell your house in the next 30 days you're going to give someone a bargain if they're asking for it because there's not a lot of someone's buying that makes sense yes yes okay so we just come in with a lower offer yeah and just say you know and and be willing to look at a lot of different properties and you know uh don't get don't get married to the first one you know and that's always true in any negotiation so uh it's just a stupid house you can get another stupid house there's a lot of stupid houses and um you know move on but i i think that's where we are um i had a good friend

of mine call me last night as a matter of fact in exactly the same situation and he said should i park the money and wait six months and see if this market gets soft or should i buy right now and i said i think you'll get a better buy right in the next 30 days than you will six months from now. That's an opinion, and it's worth what you paid for it. That's true. But, I mean, economists and weather forecasters, the only ones that can be wrong half the time and keep their jobs. So, to which I always get hate tweets from meteorologists.

It's a joke! Okay. Right. But anyway. It's true. I've got two friends that are meteorologists. I wish you'd quit saying that. Right. I wish you'd quit saying that. Right.

I wish you'd grow a funny bone. The irony is you think it is funny. That's the whole point. You're making a joke. I can't control the weather. I'm making fun of myself. Exactly. We're making an economic prediction.

Don't get me started on models right now, Dave. Models. Oh, yeah. Don't get me started. You are a statistical genius. Not. I'm not. But I got to tell you, I don't have a whole.

Neither are the people doing the models. Yeah. Have you ever seen anything so horribly done in your life? This is what I'm saying. Yeah. And it's probably true of my summation of this, too. But there's a lot of items to which the buyers, the prices may or may not have gone down. But to attract one of the few buyers.

That's correct. With a short supply of buyers right now, you're going to have to give a bargain. And a lot of those items might be luxury items, as an example. That's right. Things that are not a need. Toiletpaper, no big deal, right? That's right. But if you want to sell a five-carat diamond right now, the number of people out there

wanting to tie up their money in a rock at that level is pretty low. You're probably going to take a discount, or you're going to sit on that inventory for four, five, six months until the buyers come out of their caves. That's exactly right. You're speaking to consumer confidence, and it depends. If they run into a person who wants to move the house, they've got an opportunity for a great bargain. If you're a seller, you're going to have to do brand differentiation, and it's going to be a price differentiation in the next 30 to 60 days. Yeah, that's right.

And I really don't think the house has lost value, but it's just going to require more patience to get the value out of it. And in order to move a buyer off the sideline that is hiding in their cave somewhere, you're going to have to do that in some markets. Real estate's one of them. Maybe in car business. I bet you the car, when we kick heat back up, I bet you the car manufacturers throw out a bunch of incentives.

I think you're going to see a ton of incentives. Yeah, I'm not suggesting you go buy a new car, but I bet you see that. Oh, I think you'll see crazy deals. And what's going to be interesting, Dave, is this forbearance stuff that the government's putting out, and how's that going to affect the mortgage market and liquidity and all that kind of stuff. It's a really interesting time. Yeah, very, very strange.

Open phones this hour as we talk about your life and your money. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. We posted on my Instagram a few minutes ago and on my Twitter account, do's and don'ts during this time. Do, I'll just give you one that's not even on here. Ken, you like this one. Do go get a job if you've been laid off. Yes.

Tractor Supply is hiring 5,000 people right now, to which I asked, why? Why is Tractor Supply overrun? We're talking about our operating board. We're having a war room meeting this morning. Because they're a great company, and they're local. Fantastic. They're local here. Their headquarters is local, right up the road from us.

And we know a lot of the guys are great people. But I couldn't figure out why they're being overrun. And people are doing home improvements. Lowe's and Home Depot's overrun. Yeah. Except in Michigan, some dude was walking around handing out tickets from the sheriff's department for not doing social distancing in the Home Depot. Of course.

Yeah. I love that Home Depot and Lowe's are considered essential. I think that's fantastic. Turns out there's more discretionary cash out there than we thought, Dave. Turns out there's more discretionary essential. Right. That's true, too. Essential is now especially discretionary.

Yes. We're happy to be essential. Liquor stores are essential. That is true. Depends who you talk to on that one. Well, no. I ain't done with the Yes. We're happy to be essential. Liquor stores are essential. That is true. Depends who you talk to on that one. They ain't done with the law. They're open. I'm just making an observation of government policy. Technically essential.

This is the Dave Ramsey Show. In times of uncertainty, there is one thing you can control, you. So it's time for you to say no to fear and yes to a plan. And that plan is Financial Peace University. Through FPU, nearly 7 million people just like you have learned to pay off debt forever, save for the future, build wealth, and become outrageously generous. And for the first time ever, you can start a free 14-day trial of a Financial Peace membership. This free trial includes all nine video lessons, financial tools, and downloads, a vibrant online community, and every dollar plus our premium world-class budgeting app.

It's everything you need to start getting your money on the right track. This proven plan doesn't change with the economy or what's happening around the globe. Start your free trial of Financial Peace University today at DaveRamsey.com slash FPU. Nicole is in San Diego, and Nicole, ladies and gentlemen, according to my screen, is debt-free. Way to go, Nicole! Hi, Dave! I love it! How much have you paid off? $160,000.

Way to go! And how long did this take? Three and a half years. Good for you. And your range of income during that time? Between $86,000 and $118,000. Cool. What do you do for a living? I'm a physician assistant, and I'm a dermatology physician assistant. Okay, cool.

So are you busy right now in the middle of all this? Yeah, I'm super lucky. I'm able to work from home. I do telemedicine right now, so I'm really thankful I'm able to stay safe at home right now. Okay, so you didn't pivot and end up on the front lines of the coronavirus issues. No, but I'm super thankful to all those who are. I have a lot of friends who are right now. Amen.

I know how hard they're all working so super super grateful to all those on the front lines amen very cool so 160 000 in three and a half years so like 50 grand a year give or take and make an 86 to 118 did you sell stuff or did you have savings or were you on beans and rice? Pretty much on beans and rice, and super fortunate. I've lived in San Diego for the last little over a year, and my future father-in-law has a condo that he's not living in, so we were able to live rent-free for a little over a year now. So that was the big picture. Yeah, in San Diegogo that would be a

big deal nice boost yeah for real for what kind of debt was the 160 pa school yep all student loan debt so you kicked all sally may out how long so you've been out of school three and a half years yep yep well tell me the story what happened what got you fired up and said, okay, I'm coming out of school, game on? Well, I graduated, and I got my first student loan bill, and it was just really stressful. And I knew there were other things I wanted to do in my future, like save for a house, have kids one day, and I just know myself, and I knew it would be really hard to start really saving for those things while I had this big debt to tackle. So I just decided I'm going to pay this off really fast and just focus on that and then move on to the next thing. And I used to listen

to your podcast all the time. I still do, but when I was paying off my debt, I would listen to it every day, and I just felt like it was super motivating and got me to stick to a plan and stick to a budget and really focus on the debt so I could move on and start doing other things. Way to go. Way to go. So you just applied the same discipline to it that you did to getting your PA degree, which is a difficult field of study. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah. That's how I tackled it. I got one hard thing done. I can do another hard thing. Nicole, I'm curious. Your income went up $32,000 in this time period. What happened to create that increase in pay? So I've worked in different specialties. So I started out in

orthopedics, an inpatient, and I was living in Chicago at the time. And now I'm in dermatology, pays a little bit more. And also just living in California, incomes tend to be a little bit higher just because the cost of living is a little bit higher. That's interesting. Dermatology pays more than orthopedic. It depends on the doctor and if you're private practice versus an academic hospital. There are a lot of things that go into it, but I was super fortunate to have such a big pay increase in a relatively short amount of time. Very interesting. Good for you.

What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? Oh, man, just focus really hard and think about how happy you're going to be when you make that final student loan payment. That was, oh, man, that was one of my happiest days. It was just such an awesome feeling. Who are your biggest cheerleaders? Well, my fiancé is definitely one of them.

We started dating right after I graduated PA school, and he was just really supportive of trying to get out of debt fast and moving on to other things. So he lived on beans and rice with me. We tried to live in smaller, cheaper apartments while we were in Chicago. And then out here, obviously, at my future father-in-law's house, no rent. So that's been nice. And then my parents have been really supportive.

My brother and sister, everyone's just been really gung-ho. You can do this. And when I've had to make sacrifices everyone's been really understanding so i have an awesome team very cool very well done we're very proud of you here congratulations what a great story that's awesome what a great future you got laid out in front of you what are you 28 uh yep yep 28 i was gonna guess that's very impressive well the the school the school you were paying attention there's a process there well done well done good job we got a copy of uh chris hogan's book for you everyday millionaires and that is definitely the next chapter in your story kiddo

you are on the way you killed it congratulations hero nicole in california 160 000 paid off in three and a half years making 86 to 118 count it down let's hear a debt-free scream three two one i'm debt free yeah I love it! Well done. Very well done. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Maria is in Florida. Hi, Maria. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show.

Hi, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. How can I help? I have a question. My husband and I have both been furloughed or laid off due to the virus. He's a teacher and he referees all high school sports. And I am, well, I was self-employed. I guess I still am.

But I produce large, like, outdoor events, like festivals and things like that. And, yeah, so that's not going to be happening for any time soon. This past year, we were fortunate enough to do probate on my parents' home. We moved in to care for them and they both passed away and we did probate. And the mortgage is still in the estate of, we were in the process of refinancing it because when they had a mortgage on it, it had a real high rate. But unfortunately, they would not finalize the refinance because we both are unemployed now. And so we contacted the mortgage company because we are successors in interest of their mortgage. But they said the only thing they could do would be a forbearance plan. And it was six months of no payments. But at the end of that

six months you have to pay everything from that six months and they said there may be possible options that's exactly how the letter reads that at the end if you can't pay it we may possibly be able to do something so we're wondering should we just pay whatever we can? I have taken a job. I'll start next week at a grocery store. And he's trying to find something similar just to have income. He does have a Navy pension. The teacher pay is not, they stopped the teacher pay? Yeah.

He wasn't public. In Florida they did. Is he public? Yeah. And they're not paying teachers in Florida? He was on a 10-month contract, and so they just only paid him through his contract. Oh, okay. Yeah, because it's considered a non-essential subject.

So you both are unemployed, and you both are resetting, and you've got temp jobs until you land something else. Right. How much money do you have in savings? About $6,000. And how much is the house payment currently the house payment is twenty one hundred dollars a month because when they did probate they hadn't reassessed the taxes since 1978 and so the taxes went from five hundred dollars a year to4,000 a year, and they charged us the last three back years of not having homesteaded. They charged us the difference.

And so for this one year, the payment's huge, but in February it'll go down to like $1,200. I would take the forbearance and use it for this month, and then I would start paying next month if you can, or the next month if you can or the next month if you can and i would get ready to play catch up because the vague offers of we might do something later are worth zero you have to have a plan to catch these house payments up if you don't pay them and if you want to skip one this month or push one this month you're going to make it up within six months and you

got to start paying again as soon as you get your incomes up that's what i would do thanks for the call dental insurance is great if somebody else is paying for it. But if you're footing the bill, OneDental.com is a much better way for my listeners. OneDental.com is a discount membership that gets you unlimited lower rates at the dentist, not just for cleanings, but even dentures, implants, root canals, braces, and more. Whether you're getting a plan for yourself, your family, or your business, OneDental.com is the way to go. Visit OneDental.com.

Elizabeth is with us in Texas. Hi, Elizabeth. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, how are you doing today? Better than I deserve. How can Ken and I help? Okay, so I actually called up last week, and I had some follow-up questions for what we discussed. I am the treasurer at my church,

and my church is considering getting a payroll protection plan loan or whatever it's called. They're still considering moving forward, and I am being told that as a treasurer, since our church is incorporated, that I am going to have to sign the legal documents, because according to the incorporation documents, the treasurer is who signs the legal documents because according to the incorporation documents, the treasurer is who signs the legal documents. Is the treasurer an elder board position or are you staff? I don't know what an elder board position would be, but I'm not staff.

Okay, so you're a lay person in the church, and one of the ways you serve the church without pay is to be the treasurer. Correct. Okay. That's what I'm clarifying. Okay. Got you. Okay. Your question's what?

So kind of twofold. Number one, just kind of protecting myself. The idea of putting my signature on any kind of loan document kind of scares me, even if the church is considered incorporated. I don't know what I need to be aware of in regards to that. But then also, since I personally do not believe in debt, I'm really kind of having trouble with the idea that I might be asked to sign these papers. Yeah, well, that makes sense. Both of those make sense. All right, let's deal with the first one. I'm not an attorney, and if you are going to consider going forward in spite of the ethics issue, you would want to seek legal counsel.

My opinion is, having been in a whole bunch of those situations over the years, hundreds and hundreds of them, that you're not liable. A, you're the treasurer of a corporation. That makes you not liable. And B, if I understand what i'm reading right these uh ppp loans have no personal guarantee on them anyway even for small business so i think you're safe i'm 98 sure you're safe but if you were going to put your signature to it you should not do it based on what dave ramsey said you should ask an attorney to be sure. Okay? But I think those parts are aside.

The ethics issue is a different issue. And I think you are going to have to resign as treasurer. Okay. That's kind of what I was thinking about doing. I didn't love the idea because it felt a little bit like holding home ransom. Well, I mean, you cannot, in good conscience, what you're saying, if I'm putting words in your mouth, then don't do it, okay? But I think I heard you say, I'm not in agreement with this.

I don't want to put my name to it because it looks like I'm in agreement to it. I think it's a bad idea, and you're going to have to have someone else sign it. I'm not going to do it. The good news is that you're just not going to be the treasure you could still go to church there and disagree on things right you're not going to find a church where you ever agree with 100 of what they do anyway uh there's no such thing and uh and you know you're not losing your job that's why i was asking for the staff position it's merely a formality that you're not going to serve the church in that form anymore and it's not i'm not trying to protest i'm not

trying to be arrogant i just cannot in good conscience put my name on this ken your dad was a pastor what do you think yeah i think in this situation uh if she does not want to sign it does not feel good about signing it she doesn't sign sign it. And she says, as a result, if you want me to step down from this position, I'm fine with it. I'm happy to sign a document. It'll be my resignation document, not this document. And that's up to the leadership of the church whether or not they want her to continue to serve based on her conscientious objection. And I think you gave great advice there. It doesn't mean you've got to leave the church in a huff.

It doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful. Just say, look, I don't believe in in this thus i will not sign on this i don't think as the officer in this position of the church in leadership that we should do this so therefore i can't sign it i won't sign it yeah and um you know and here's the thing i i you then you have to decide and i don't think it is but you can decide what you want to do, if it is a deal breaker for you attending there, and that would be if you've completely lost confidence in leadership. Because I can't attend a church where I have completely lost confidence in leadership. Now, I can attend a church where leadership doesn't do everything Dave Ramsey wants

because I'm not going to serve in leadership. I don't serve in leadership down here at Ramsey. I have too much crap going on to stick my toe in that water. So there's no such thing as a church that does everything I want them to do exactly like I want them to do because I'm not running it. So I'm not going to leave every time I disagree with somebody. I'm not that guy. And I'm not trying to stir up a stink every time I disagree with somebody some people do that in churches as like a spiritual gift right and we don't want you to be that person but on the other hand if this raises its head to the point that uh you really

feel like these people aren't wise and this is an indicator or they're not competent as leaders overall and this is yet one i look for patterns this is yet one more indication of that then that would be the deal i i've only left a couple of churches in my entire christian life and both of them were over patterns of leadership that i couldn't go along with not singular events does that make sense yes it does i really appreciate your advice i was kind of leaning the same way and i just wanted to hear someone else say that that and for goodness sake wasn't being belligerent yeah just be nice and not belligerent through the whole thing whatever you do whatever you do just be kind and smiling and uh because i gotta tell you the the the first church that i

ever left some of my best friends in the world are still there, including the pastor that was pastor at that time. He's one of my favorite people on the planet. And I want to maintain those friendships. I want to maintain those connections. I don't have to be a jerk to disagree to the point that I can't participate there. So, hey, thank you for the call. And you know, Ken, we feel the same way at Ramsey. If you think that my response to the coronavirus is incompetent, as a Ramsey, as the owner and the leader of this organization, there's 1,000 people on this team. You've seen me encourage, in our staff meetings, encourage people to leave. Wholesale. Yeah. wholesale, or if you think that the leadership is somehow lacking in integrity or is going to put someone at risk or is, whether it's coronavirus or anything else,

if you reach a point that you think that the leadership of the organization that you're tied to is incompetent or toxic, then you staying attached to that organization at that point is a lack of integrity on your part. Absolutely. It's not a statement of them. Yeah. You know, what I tell people, I get that call a lot. Ken, there's some ethical issues going on. There's some toxicity that has been addressed by the team and leadership.

It doesn't do anything about it. I can't do anything. What I say on the Ken Coleman Show is, all right, let's think about your income, but you need to get out of there. And you need to find something to step into pretty soon. Because the longer you stay there, you're becoming a part of the problem now. Well, you're condoning it, number one. That's right. But number two, let's say that you disagree with leadership and you're wrong.

Yeah, by the way, that is an option. That's an option, yeah. And so then you still need to leave. Yeah, because you now become a cancer inside the organization. No question. And that's not helping anybody. And what it boils down to is you're stealing. Yeah.

You know, I'm just going to tell you, if you work at Ramsey Solutions and you don't like what Dave believes and what Dave says, which, by the way, it's the same thing he says on the air that he says in our company. And if you don't like it and you stay here and then you criticize Dave or the organization on social or at a barbecue, you are stealing from this organization. And that's true of your organization. Any organization. Yeah, I'm using it as our team. If you can't say nice things and address problems to leadership instead of spreading trash about your church, you should leave your church. Yeah, you're not lifting anything. And that's not her. She's got a great attitude.

No, no, she's great. She's got a great attitude. But I do think you see that a lot. You think people, you know, they go, well, I don't agree with this, but I'm going to continue to stay here. And that's not the right move. Now, A, you need to be classy. B, you need to be intentional to find an exit strategy. And the minute you find it, you need to leave.

And leave with class. Leave with class. You could say, I'm leaving because I can't sit well with this, but I appreciate the opportunity to be here. And you can be a conscientious objector and still have class. We don't see that in this world very much anymore. It requires a tremendous amount of courage. Yeah, and character.

Can we just say that? Can we just, you know, you say it a lot. Can we just be grown-ups? You know, just act with class. You can stand for something without stabbing somebody. Yeah, and she's doing a great job. Again, I want to reiterate that. Her spirit and her attitude, that's the second time I've talked to her in two weeks, is incredible. So very, very good discussion. Very good discussion. You know, and that's where toxic

environments come from. And that's how you clean them out, is you clean out toxic people. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. in the middle of these uncertain times ramsey solutions wants to give you some hope for the very first time ever we're giving you financial peace university free for 14 days go to dave ramsey.com slash hope so you can watch from home. Be more intentional with your time and money. Sign up for e-meals and let them do the thinking for you. They have a shopping list generator that makes it incredibly easy. You can have your meals organized and planned for the week and have your groceries waiting for you when you get to the store.

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