The Ramsey Show - App - Micro-Investing Is Going to Lead to Micro-Wealth (Hour 1)

Episode Date: July 16, 2019

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Music Music Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.

Patty starts off this hour in Billings, Montana. Hi, Patty. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up in your world? Well, I'm debating on

whether to pay off a mortgage of mine. I got a small inheritance, a nice inheritance, about $80,000, and I owe $120,000 on my mortgage at $4.43, and so I would have to take some cash, of course, that I have to pay this off. So right now I've got about liquid cash with that inheritance, about 157. So that puts me at 37 liquid cash. And I have rentals. I have two duplexes, and I live in the upper portion of one of them. So that brings in some income. So that, what I have left on that liquid cash,

I also use for any maintenance or anything I need to do with that. So I feel like I should pay it off, but then I'm also a little nervous about only having that amount of liquid cash. And then I don't, you know, then i my income per month off of them is about 2200 is your uh are they in bad shape no well one of them's very old um so that's always kind of so what is the likelihood that you have a sudden forty thousand dollar event uh probably not yeah i didn't think so. Not $40,000.

Yeah. And that's the only way you'd be in trouble. Yeah, okay. Pay it off. Pay it off? Today. I got three other people's advice, and you were the one that was going to seal the deal. Today.

All right. I'm going to do it today. You're free. Yes. How old are you? How old. Yes. How old are you? Thank you very much for your time. How old are you? I'm 59, but don't tell anybody.

Okay, I won't. Just you and me and 16 million people. Okay. All right. Have you, in your adult life, have you ever been completely debt-free house and everything before today? Not on my house, but I live pretty debt pretty debt free i don't ever have a car payment you don't have any payments in the world no none it's going to change everything yeah except for my health insurance you're going to breathe a little deeper the montana air is

going to be a little cooler going into your lungs. Cool. I love it. Pay it off today. You got it. Have at it. This is why you work. This is what's going on. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Brittany's in Pensacola.

Hi, Brittany. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. Sure. What's up? So I'm calling today just to kind of see what your advice would be on this scenario. My husband and I are completely debt-free besides our house.

We became debt-free back in 2017. Good. And we currently own two businesses. We completely cash flow those businesses, so there's no debt on those. And we are wanting to start a third business. Why? on those. And we are wanting to start a third business. So one of our businesses, so we do wedding photography and videography and our long-term goal is we want to open a wedding venue. So it's not a new business, it's an extension of your other business. Right. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So we're just kind of trying to figure out what would be the best plan of action for this right now

because it's going to cost a significant amount of money to open a wedding venue. Yeah. So we're just kind of trying to figure out what should we do at this point. Very difficult to make the numbers work on that business. They just don't work, and the reason is pretty simple. You have a lot of hard dollars tied up in something that is used almost never as a percentage. I mean, it's just the occasional wedding. It's not like every morning you get up and do a wedding.

You're not in Las Vegas. And so, you know, you're going to do some do some you know you'll be jammed on weekends in the summer uh but can't give the thing away in the winter and uh those kinds of things so i it's be careful what you wish for um i i you may be able to make it work you may be able to you may be in a situation in pensacola where you've got enough demand for something like that but i gotta tell you most of those fail right yes sir because you can't keep them busy enough and when they are busy you can't charge enough to cover the times when you're not busy to justify what the land cost is the building cost the maintenance cost the electricity the insurance all the things all those things keep running even when no one's there right so be real careful to consider all of your costs and you must do this

debt-free right absolutely absolutely okay and that's it because the only way you'll survive you can't survive and cash flow the debt on it it won't work at all so it's just it's a it's a it's a wonderful business if you can get it going but it's just a problem to keep it full enough you know you know what are you going to charge per wedding and then divide start dividing that into all your costs and it just is i've looked at i don't know 10 or 20 of them over the years and i've seen a whole bunch of them close uh it's just very difficult to make it work and make it make money. It's got to be a low-cost piece of ground, which the problem with that is then it's less desirable

or the location is questionable or something like that. I mean, if you can find a cute country church somewhere that is close enough, but you can buy it at country prices instead of city prices, but it's close enough the city people will come out there, and then you dress that thing up uh you know you can turn something into that that is lower cost that way into something that the numbers will work but if you go right square in the middle of metro and start trying to make this thing work it's hard good luck with it i'm not saying don't do it but i am saying be wise about crunching the numbers on it to make sure exactly where

you stand. Good question. Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Alex is on Twitter. Dave, what's your opinion on micro-investing apps like Acorns or Betterment? Are these good vehicles to building wealth long-term, and are there any major drawbacks to these types of services?

I'm not seeing anything really wrong with akron's or betterment akron's is different than betterment betterment's more of a robo investor akron's is more of a invest pennies uh and you know round up type of investing and those kinds of things here's the thing micro investing is going to create micro wealth. And the big downside is, is you actually feel like you did something and you didn't do anything. The way you end up with money is you invest money.

The way you end up with more money is you invest more money, not less. An app doesn't make $2 turn into twenty dollars well it's just it's extra then not really i mean it's still micro and the results are going to be micro and yet you put effort into it and felt like you did something so it's okay to do that it's okay to use that. It's okay to use Betterment. It's okay to use Acorns. I'm not mad at them. I don't think their fees are ridiculous.

I don't think they're a ripoff. I don't think anything like that. Just the illusion that you've done something is the only thing that scares me. This is the news, guys. You need to stop and listen. The Fed decided not to raise interest rates. That means you've got a small window of time before rates rise again. Here's the deal.

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That's 888-562-6200 or churchillmortgage.com. Thank you for joining us, America. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. We're glad you're with us. 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Victor is with us in Seattle. Hey, Victor, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Victor.

I mean, hey, Dave, sorry. Very pleasurable to get a hold of you. You too. I have a big question here. I got off a marriage of nine years in 2017, went through a divorce. I have a property that it was assigned to my name. She basically parted away with nothing due to the circumstances. Long story short, it's been a rental property for the last two years, and I'm having a tough time deciding what to do with that property. I can give you some numbers on equity and all that. What are you trying to decide? Whether to keep it or not?

So, yeah, yeah. So I moved out of it um living with my parents now and uh it's just way more than uh a quarter what is it a quarter take-home pay or so what is your income yeah my income is 60 000 um gross and this property was your home before you got divorced yes it was it was our home before you got divorced? Yes, it was our home, our family home. So what is it worth? It's worth $394,000. It was appraised at $390,000.

And the remaining balance is $227,000 right now. Okay. If you didn't own it, would you go buy a $300,000 house, making $60,000 while you live with your parents? No. No, I'll tell you what, Dave. After listening to you, you've really changed. You're going to change my future, most importantly. But it's a tough choice.

Why is it tough? Just get rid of it. It's cash flowing $500 right now. Yeah, but it's cash flowing $500, but not if it's empty or not if they choose not to pay, and you don't have the money to carry this thing if it turns and bites you. This is a snake that can turn and bite you. Mm-hmm. I mean, if they move out or if the renter moves out or the renter chooses not to pay, you've got a problem.

You've got a real cash flow problem. Definitely, yeah. I look at it that way too it's a risk um yeah i would take my money out of it and do something else with my money and start with the baby says i mean i if i sell this thing i'm at 130 000 in my bank account yep roughly um how old are you um yeah how old are you i'm i'm 29 years old okay all right yeah i mean you may maybe take the hundred thousand and work through the baby steps and go buy a nice little condo or something that you live in and um and you clear up all your debts and have an emergency fund and a good down payment to do that with or maybe even pay cash depending on what price range condo you're looking at and how much other debt you've got but yeah this house is a leftover from a life that is no

longer there you have a different life now and i would get rid of this house it is it's gonna bite you i'm afraid um it's it's you know making money while it makes money but when it doesn't make money it's not gonna make money brad's with us in Atlanta. Hi, Brad. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, David. Thanks for taking my call, man. I really appreciate it. My pleasure.

So my question is this. I'm going through a midlife crisis, so I decided to buy a used supercar. Cool. Hybrid, BMW i8. And I bought the extended warranty. Just wondering what your thought is. You know, I have other cars that are in the $30,000 to $50,000 range, and getting repairs on those are relatively acceptable.

But for the BMW i8 and it being a hybrid and a car that it is. What's that? It came with a warranty. No, this is a used one. Oh, okay. No, I would not buy an extended warranty ever and here's why not at all no okay here's why extended warranty companies do the math they do not lose money right it's not their job now let's right the i8 is an unusual vehicle it's a very cool vehicle, by the way. Yeah, thank you.

But it's an unusual vehicle, but still, you and I, for a second, are going to open an extended warranty company, and here's what we would do. Our cost to provide extended warranties to 1,000 I-8 users is X, because X number of times they're going to break down, and it's going to cost us X. Okay? So the stuff that the warranty covers is going to cost us a certain number of dollars average across 1,000 policies. Agreed? That's our cost to provide the consumer the warranty. Extended warranties are calculated to where that is around 12.5%. 12.5% of what you paid covers the actual statistical probability

and the dollars related to it of a breakdown. The other 87% is marketing, profit, commissions, and overhead. Okay. So you're better off, unless you have the unusual event, and you can afford the unusual event or you couldn't afford this car, you're better off to self-insure through this, and 87% of the time, you're going to come out ahead. Right, right.

I mean, for me, it was just more of a, you know, the cost of getting a hybrid supercar fixed compared to my wife's QN Nero, you know. Yeah, but the cost of getting a supercar fixed is built into the extended warranty yeah they didn't give you an extended warranty on a malibu they gave you an extended warranty on a beamer hybrid yeah which was we couldn't we couldn't even get an extended warranty through any company except warrant well two actually either bmw which was and you noticed it was higher yeah and in there and because the potential cost to repair it it's higher cost of warranty because the potential cost to repair it is higher they do not lose money right i got you okay you're not going to come out ahead on this if you do come out ahead on average this more this this companies that you've got this with is going to go broke because on average they have to come out ahead on this if you do come out ahead on average this more this this companies

that you've got this with is going to go broke because on average they have to come out ahead that's how insurance of all kinds works but this is an insurance you should self-insure through and um you know you you paid 87 too much for a 12. That's what it amounts to on average. And that's how, you know, actuarial tables are built. It's probability and statistics in the insurance world. So I self-insure through all of my nice cars. The one, you know, if I buy a new one, it comes with a warranty, obviously. That is a very nice warranty, usually.

But if you buy a used one like that, I'm going to take the risk or I'm not going to buy the car. Blake is with us in Dallas, Texas. Hi, Blake. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. How are you today? Better than I deserve.

What's up? Congratulations on your new building. Thank you. We're excited about it. Yeah, I'm happy for you guys. So quick question. So I'm new to your app, the EveryDollar Budgeting app, and my income is irregular. So I don't get paid the same every two weeks.

Every other week I get paid, and it's never the same paycheck. I get paid based on commission, which is through a performance. How long have you been on commission? So it's been about, I want to say, four months that I've been getting paid like this, and I never got paid like that before. And what do you typically get in a month? I know it's not predictable, but it's predictable. What's been your experience through this four months?

What do you think you're going to get next month and why? I would say about a gross $8,000 a month. Okay. So run you on every dollar budget at like five thousand or six thousand and then as you get more than that through the month step in there and update your budget and change it it's real easy to update you can update in about 10 minutes uh and do it once a week once you break through your threshold so once you get to five thousand and you've run all your expenses out on five thousand you've got another two thousand,000 come in. Now you're at $7,000. Okay, we're going to put that in there. We're

going to budget that money. All budgeting is is telling your money what to do before it leaves instead of wondering where it went. And that's what you're going to do with the EveryDollar app with an irregular income. Thank you. Marie is with us in Houston, Texas. Hey, Marie, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Mr. Ramsey, What a pleasure to speak with you. My question is, I'm 62. I'm on disability. And I would like to take a lump sum distribution from a previous employer.

But I called a local bank. And they told me because of my age, they couldn't. Oh, okay. So I have about $20,000. I have about $5,000 in medical bills, and then I wanted to put the rest in a retirement account to avoid paying taxes. Well, I called the local bank, and they told me because of my age and the risk factor, I could not open an IRA account to transfer that remaining balance to. So what do I do?

You don't use a bank for investment advice. They suck at it okay click on davramsey.com click on smart vestor it'll drop down a list of the smart vestor pros the people we recommend in your area you choose one of those and sit down with them and they can help you do this there is no age at which you cannot do an ira rollover the bank just was telling you they thought it was too risky. But they suck at this. They're banks. Okay.

They're good at giving people car loans and credit card debt, and that's what they're good for. Okay. And maybe having a debit card with. But past that, they're a stupid bank. And so you never use a bank for investment advice ever. And you can do a rollover. It's perfectly legal. What you cannot do on a disability income is open a new IRA because you do not have what's called an earned income.

You're living on disability income. And so you're not eligible if you don't have wages of some kind to do a new IRA each year, but you can definitely do a rollover from an old retirement account from a portion or all of that retirement account for sure. Absolutely. Just click SmartVestor Pro or SmartVestor at DaveRamsey.com. They'll help you do that. Whitney's in Minneapolis.

Hi, Whitney. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So I recently got divorced. I'm 33, and I'm a single mom with two kids.

And I have a ton of student loan debt. I have a really good job, but my student loans are killing me, not to mention just being a single parent is pretty tough. So I'm just calling to see if I do own some land, and I'm wondering, I have one student loan that starts off, that's about $25,000, and then it's really just with Wells Fargo that's been an issue for me. So I contemplated taking a mortgage out against my land to pay off just those loans to, one, lower my interest rate, and then to also get rid of that charged off account and then the other loan with Wells Fargo. So you have a $25,000 student loan debt at Wells Fargo.

What else have you got? So $25,000 is charged off at Wells Fargo. What else have you got? So $25,000 is charged off at Wells Fargo. I have about another $20,000 with Wells Fargo. And then I have about another $100,000 in student loans. So you have $145,000 in student loan debt.

Yep. Wow. How much do you owe on your car? Well, I am leasing my car. Oh crap. How much do you owe on your car? Well, I am leasing my car. Oh, crap. How much is your car payment? $450,000. Jeez. And what is your income? $72,000.

Okay. And how much is your house payment? I rent right now. That's the other thing. How much do you pay for rent? Close to $1,600. Okay. All right. And how many kids have you got? I have two.

What ages? Two and four. Hands are full. And how much child support are you getting in addition to the $72,000? $400. $400? A month? Yep.

He doesn't work much, does he? He's a business owner. Your attorney sucks then. Or he doesn't make any profit. Okay. What's the land worth and what's the story on the land yeah so it's farmland um it's been in my family we have i share it with my brother we share 80 acres so i have about 40 um which would be last i checked over a hundred thousand Over $100,000. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. Will your brother buy your part out?

I asked him. He's not in a position to right now, so then I won't because it's just, it was my dad. He's no longer here. Mm-hmm. He's no longer here, but you have two children to raise, and you have $145,000 in student loan debt, debt and you have a hundred thousand dollar piece of dirt sitting over there yes you don't have a choice it's good dirt i know i agree i don't want to sell it to someone that's not family i'm sorry you don't have a choice you're broke taking a mortgage birth says taking a mortgage out? What's the difference? You got debt.

You still got $145,000 worth of debt and a piece of dirt over there, and you're trying to raise two babies. I'm sorry. I hate that you're in this situation. I know this is heartbreaking, but I got to tell you, this is a piece of dirt. Your children's future and your future is at stake. Your dad did not give you that piece of dirt for it to be anything except a blessing i agree i agree and i want to do that

it's just not it's frowned upon to do that i don't give a crap who frowns upon it if somebody wants to frown upon it they can write you the check right that's true um. You don't have a lot of options. You're in a pinch. I am. And the thing is, I have like two months to figure this out because I have to leave the townhome. They're selling it. So I don't have a lot of time to make a decision. You're going to be renting. You're broke.

Yeah. You're not going to be buying anything. So the townhome you're living in has given you notice that you have to leave? Yep. Okay. So you've just got to find you another rental property. You've got to find a place for you and the kids to move, rent, and you've got to get this land sold, get this student loan.

What if you had no payments? I'd breathe. Yeah. And you could start saving for your kid's college, and you could start saving for your retirement, and your future would start to brighten up again after this horrible thing you've been through and this jerk of an ex who doesn't even take care of his own kids.

Yeah. $400. Give me a break. I know. And so, I mean, you are the secret sauce to these problems. And bless your heart, you're just thrown out there in the cold. I mean, I'm not picking on you. I'm on your side.

I want you to win. And I know you've had the crud knocked out of you, and you've been scared, and you've been mad, and you've been all those things, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And this piece of dirt clears up a lot of your problems i agree and getting rid of this get rid of this lease car yes i agree you didn't have any payments you had an inexpensive rent you're living on a budget you and these kids start to have a

really bright future because you do have a decent income what do you do for a living i'm a mental health therapist i'm a trauma therapist okay okay cool so um you're getting a little of your own medicine right now aren't you you tell people everyday things they don't want to hear but are the truth and are good for them that's what i'm doing to you right i can take it i know you can take it honey i'm not trying to make you do it i'm just saying you you tell people the truth every day again in uncomfortable awkward situations and that's what i'm doing i i know this land means a lot to you i know there's going to be some people roll their eyes and so forth but

the problem is they're not sending you any money to take care of your babies right and so you have to do what's good for you and these two babies that is that's the only people you need to impress right that is true if they want to give you $100,000 and keep the land and the family, that's wonderful. That would be a wonderful thing. But if they can't do that or won't do that, then there we go. And, you know, they lose their right to gripe about someone else's life when they refuse to help them. You're in a situation. I'm so sorry.

That's what I would do if I woke up in your shoes. And I know it's painful. It's going to be less painful than trying to wait out of this. And you can't borrow your way out of debt. This is The Dave Ramsey Show, Chris. Thanks, Dave. I'm so excited to talk toburg, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show, Chris. Thanks, Dave. I'm so excited to talk to you, man.

You too. How can I help? So my wife and I are on baby steps four, five, and six, and I just wanted to see what other kind of investment vehicles you recommend for more short-term investing. I'm not sure yet if I want to save to pay off the house 100% or save to potentially buy a rental property in the future, but I just want to see what you recommended.

Okay. I don't recommend that you buy a rental property unless you pay cash for it, and I don't recommend you do that until you have your house paid off. And so your best investment is everything in 15% of your income going to retirement in Baby Step 4. Kids' college is addressed in 5, and everything else goes in 6 until your house is paid for. That is your best short-term investment. Once you're doing that, you know, and you're in Baby Step 7 effectively then, you know, you look at how much more you can put into retirement and what are some shorter term investments uh meaning i'm for instance i took i take and took excess money

and i just dump it into an s&p 500 um leave it there a year two three years whatever until i build up enough to buy another piece of real estate and so that's my uh put and take account i put it in there and i take it out and buy real estate with it later but at least it's growing at stock market rates and it's no commission because no load fund on an s&p and so um which commissions are not a concern i pay commissions when i'm leaving alone long long term like retirement but on a short-term thing we're going to take it three to five years, pull it back out, commissions start to affect your returns pretty substantially. So, you know, on a short-term like that, that's what I do.

I just use an S&P 500. But I wouldn't do any of that until your house was paid off. Okay, good to know. Thanks so much. Hey, thanks for the call. John's with us in Houston, Texas. Hey, John, how are you? Hello, Mr. Ramsey.

Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. How can I help? Well, last year I lost my job that I was with for 15 years, sir. And over the course, I got myself extremely mentally depressed, and I have accumulated over $90,000 in credit card debt, sir. And I have a judgment, not a judgment, I have a credit card company that has filed a lawsuit in my city, and I've talked to a couple of attorneys,

but they're wanting about $4,000 just to handle the case and information. And I just don't have that type of cash, um, to do anything. And, uh, uh, you know, I have a house, even though I've been unemployed, been looking for work. I have a house that I have with my dad. My dad collects Social Security. I'm living with him. And I just really don't know how to pull myself out of the bad choices that I made using my credit cards. How old are you? 41.

And what kind of a job did you have? I was a manager for a retail store manager okay all right and why have you been unable to find work because you're depressed uh been out looking and just yes i've been you know uh emotionally and mentally depressed well it's hard to be energetic and be your best self when you're suffering from depression, and so it makes the energy level for the job search low, and then it makes the interview underperform both. Is that true?

Yes, sir. Yeah, and yet the very thing that solves all of this is an income. Correct. You know, but I do... Are you doing anything to earn any kind of money? Just, you know, working online part-time, you know, a couple of hundred dollars a month. Mm-hmm. So you're pretty well living off your dad's Social Security then?

Yes, sir. Okay. All right. Have you seen a counselor? No, I have not. Are you a member of a church? Yes, I am. Okay.

Okay. The interesting thing is that it's a chicken and egg problem. I'm not a mental health professional. Okay. I'm just a guy. I have the 30 years of experience of coaching people in the financial world, and oftentimes I run into folks that are struggling from depression, and the depression is aggravated by the financial problems

uh which then is which then aggravates the depression or the depression is aggravated by the financial problems which then aggravates the uh the job situation the income situation and that makes that worse and so it's kind of a spiral downward like the job gets worse so the depression gets worse so the financial gets worse so the job gets worse so the financial gets worse so the depression you see what i'm saying and so we have to stop we have to do something to drop a bomb in the middle of that spiral and start going the other direction okay so um first things first your worst case scenario with the credit card debt is that you would file bankruptcy your next worst case scenario with the credit card debt is that they would sue you and actually win the good news is

you live in texas you have homestead laws there they cannot put a lien on your personal residence as a result of consumer debt and a lawsuit they also cannot garnish wages in texas so the bottom line is they're going to get nothing they're a dog running around the bottom of the tree barking and you're safely up in the branches okay so what about like can they garnish the wages out of my bank account you have to check an attorney in texas but you don't have any money in your bank account i have like three thousand dollars cash that's it okay and so it's not you know they're they're not it's not like there's they're more bark than bite because you're in texas there's not a lot they can do okay you can check an attorney i'm not one but that that's what you're going to find you can actually do a

little google search and start to find out what they're able to do in Texas, and it's going to be nothing. That doesn't fix your problem, though. Let's pretend the debt went away completely. We still have a guy who's struggling with depression who doesn't have a job, which means we've got another financial problem tomorrow, right? Yes. If we waved a wand and all your debt went away completely, instantly, you've still got an issue.

So what I'm going to tell you to do is let's start to work on the other side of it. Let's take the debt problem, slide it over here to the left, just out of emotional range and not wring our hands over it because they can't do a lot about it and because you can't do a lot about it. For just a minute, let's set it over to the side and let's work on john call your pastor and tell him you desperately need to have a cup of coffee with him this week tell him what's going on sit down with someone in your church and get some men around you that will care about you and will walk with you through this process number two will you do that if I ask you to do it? Yes, sir, I will. I appreciate you.

Depression is solved by taking action, activity. Number two, start an exercise regime today. Tomorrow morning, I want you to walk two miles or go to the Y and lift weights. I don't care. Start doing something where your heart rate goes up because it releases adrenaline into your bloodstream, proteins, endorphins into your bloodstream, which is not the salvation for depression, but it does help. And when you just sit around and worry all day, it makes everything worse chemically.

Okay? You follow me? Yes, sir. Number two, exercise regime. Will you do that? I will. Number three, do you have a car? I do, and it's paid off in my name.

Wonderful. I want you to start delivering pizzas immediately or driving Uber, either one you choose. And it's not going to do anything except cause you to be doing something. And when you start doing something and a little bit of money comes in, it starts to feel better. And when it starts to feel better, you're more marketable when you go on a real interview for a real job. Then we get your real job kicked back in and you're feeling better. You may be seeing a counselor because you're making a little money to pay one and getting some help with this depression, not just a farm boy like me helping you, okay? But then, after you're doing all of that, you start to make a little money.

We'll go back and attack these credit card debts and settle them per pennies on the dollar. You can get them out of your life. But the credit card debt's not the problem here. It's the symptom, and we have to attack the actual problem first. Hang on. I'm going to send you a copy of Ken Coleman's book, The Proximity Principle, to help you on that job hunt. This is The Dave Ramsey Show.

This is James Childs, producer of The Dave Ramsey Show. Did you know you can now listen to The Dave Ramsey Show on Pandora and Spotify? For all the ways to watch and listen, check out our show page at DaveRamsey.com slash show.