The Ramsey Show - App - Please Don’t Let Your Church Take On Debt (Hour 1)

Episode Date: July 20, 2022

Dave Ramsey & Kristina Ellis discuss: Putting value on a piece of property, Mutual fund vs a 529, Investing while working on a PhD, Churches taking on debt Want a plan for your money? Find out where to start: https://bit.ly/3nInETX Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3GxiXm6

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show. Where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing actual relationships. We're glad you're with us. Christina Ellis, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. As we answer your questions about your life and your money, the phone number is 888-825-5225, 888-825-5225. Starting off this hour is Emily in Nashville. Hi, Emily. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hey, Dave. How are you today? Great. What's up in your world? I'm doing good. I just have a question. I am the trustee of an estate. I've got everything liquidated but the final piece of property.

And I've got a cash offer but I'm not sure if i should take it or not okay what do you think the value of the property is appraisal well we weren't able to get an appraisal because it's commercial property what do you think it is worth what do you what do you estimate the value to be i don't really know because the the realtors told me anywhere from 375 to 650 is what i should expect for it um well good god i mean you could throw a hand grenade and hit that it's a bit of a range what is this what kind of property is it um so it used to be a flea market. It's closed now. So now it's 15 and a half acres. And so it's basically a little weird situation of there's not a lot of road frontage, and half of the property still has woods on it.

It's three and a half acres zone commercial. 15 and a half. 15 and a half acres zone commercial. Yes. Where is it? This is up in ohio oh okay okay and so basically it's raw ground i mean the flea market was just they stood up some tables and stuff right um there is three structures i've got a big barn a storage unit building and then a walk-through pavilion um They're all cleaned out and empty. So is this zoned commercial in a metro area or what? It's not exactly metro, but it's not rural.

It's like an up-and-coming area. And it's zoned commercial? Correct, yes. Okay. So what would it be used for? If I were to buy it, it's a piece of basically raw ground. You don't need a barn on a commercial property. You're going to mow this thing down.

You're going to build something in there. You're going to build a mall on that, strip mall on that. Am I going to build a transmission center? Am I going to put a fast food joint on it? What am I going to do with it? It's really whatever you'd like to do. Oh, I know that. But, I mean, what do you think it's going to be used for?

I mean, if I was in Ohio, I would use it for storage units myself. Okay, there we go. But we've had some developers come in. Gotcha. Okay. All right, so you listed it for how much? We listed it $650. And what do they offer you?

We're at $550 now is what we've dropped down to, and they offered me originally $400, and I got them up to $415, but he won't come any higher. Okay. So the bottom line is we don't know. We know this is under asking, but asking was a wild guess on value. Yes. Because we really don't have anything in this conversation or in conversations you've had to establish value right correct yes emily how long has it been listed so when it was

my grandparents property um they've had it up and off the market for 15 years um i listed it myself uh in march and i have a six-month contract with the realtors I have right now. I'm just – part of the concern is they're dual realtors, so they're doing my side and the other side, so I don't have the most excitement that they may be giving me the best advice on if I should take this offer or not. Okay. Tell me if I'm wrong when I say this this is a difficult piece of property yes it's very difficult very unique limited market limited road frontage uh your grandparents tried to sell it um now some guy comes along and he's establishing the value for whatever reason he's

going to use it for i have no idea what it's worth um in this scenario i can't get a gauge on it based on our conversation so it's hard for me to uh do this uh it does feel like there is a value to getting rid of something that appears to be hard to sell it does feel like there's a value to getting rid of something that appears to be hard to sell. It does feel like there's a value to putting a bow on this estate and being done with it, and everybody got their money, and we walk away. It doesn't sound like you're leaving $200,000 on the table. I don't believe that based on what you're telling me. Do you? I don't think I am.

I just have a hard time believing the market has shifted so much from January when I got some of the first numbers from the market analysis to now. Well, the market analysis was 375 to 650. Yeah. It's not exactly a narrow range. Yeah. I mean, if it was six and a quarter to 650, well, we've actually got something that indicates

value but 375 to 650 doesn't indicate value that's just somebody can't find a comp and we're guessing yeah i mean i you know uh based on the two things i said before i'm probably taking it because i like to simplify my life okay okay but i i can't i'm not doing it because I like to simplify my life. Okay. But I can't. I'm not doing that because I'm assured of the value. I really don't think what you're telling me is you're leaving $200,000 on the table. You've had no offers in 15 years before with Grandma trying to sell it, and now you're putting it on the market, and we can't establish value, and it's an unusual piece of property in a not so booming uh street it's got limited uh street

frontage uh yeah there's just a lot here it's a bit of a white elephant property in that sense and so yeah i'm probably just going to cut cut bait and move on to the next thing if it's me. I like simple and predictable and low risk. And, you know, would you buy this piece of property for $415,000? No. So you're going to buy it again if you don't take this. You bought it back in a sense. Well, is it a conflict of interest for the real estate agent to be representing both sides? Is that normal?

It's very normal. Not unusual at all, especially when it's disclosed uh because the thing is this um you know they've disclosed what's called a dual agency but you know it's just assuming people have uh integrity if you don't think your real estate agent has integrity then then you shouldn't have them anyway no no matter what. But, you know, they told her $375,000 to $650,000. That's not even – I could just make stuff up like that too. And I ain't even seen the property. You know, I mean, it's just such a range that – wow, that's amazing.

The real estate market is officially slowing down. And it's not a bad thing because it was so white hot that every piece of property on the market was a dadgum auction, and that's not healthy for the market. That's not healthy economics. So it's slowing down to where the buyer demand is more attuned to seller availability, inventory supply versus demand, but demand is still greatly over supply. If you have a traditional piece of property you're going to list, you're not going to take a beating on value, but you are going to not sell it with 85 offers over the weekend. We're already seeing that slow down in a recession, towards a recession, or an almost recession, or whatever we're going to call this thing statistically. But the market has slowed down. Not a bad thing.

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No exams. It just doesn't get any easier. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282. It really is time to get this done. Christina Ellis, number one best-selling author. Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Guys, this Building Wealth Tour that we have, our live event tour, is blown blown up on monday we announced a sellout for phoenix on september the 13th and we launched uh the following or the day before in phoenix september the 12th as a second show and it almost sold out half in 24 hours so going crazy and today

we're announcing that the sacramento event november the 1st is officially sold out as well. And as I told you yesterday, we can't get extra venues in these other cities, so there won't be second shows on those. So that means we have now September 12th, Phoenix available. We have Minneapolis November 10th available and San Antonio November 15th available. But I'm warning you, all three of those are going to be gone shortly so if you want tickets quit screwing around go get your tickets now's the time $25 tickets or you can get a four-pack as low as $60 and that means you can bring a whole

group of friends for what you pay for pizza uh yeah this is a deal and it's going to be george camel rachel cruz dr john deloney ken coleman and me will be taking pictures signing books and uh answering questions doing all kinds of things it's going to be an incredible incredible event in these different cities and they're red hot the building wealth tour and get your tickets at ramsey solutions.com uh while the getting's good washington dc's on the line david's with us hi david welcome to the ramsey show hey david christina it's great to talk with you you too what's up so um i understand why target date mutual funds are not a good idea for my retirement account because as you explain i'll need the money to last for 30 years past my

retirement date i think that makes a lot of sense. My question is, would target date funds be a good idea for my kids' 529 account? I have a four-year-old and a seven-week-old. And because I'll need the money for a specific four-year window, it feels different than that 30-year timeline you always talk about. So I'm wondering what you think about that target date funds in a 529 account. Well, so here's what happens in a target date fund they shift the portfolio as the quote date arrives to be more and more conservative as you understand david correct right yeah okay so the answer to the question the math is not going to be nearly as dramatic

in college as it is in retirement. Number one, because there's not as many years up to the date involved and not as many years after the date involved. Your point, this is only four years. Okay? So if you were to run the math and say, I stayed, by definition, if you do what we teach, being that four types of mutual funds are just a good growth stock mutual fund, you're more aggressive stance doing that than doing a target date. Agreed?

That's correct. Yeah. Okay. And so if you stay in a more aggressive up until that four-year mark, even at the date of the first semester, you don't cash the whole thing in. You only cash in enough to go to that semester. Right. Right.

And so were the market to be down, you could only cash in one semester, even if it isn't down. You're going to ride out, and you're only going to take the money out as you need it, so you've got a four-year spread to ride any market variations, number one, which is the reason to get more conservative, because you can't stomach the variation mathematically. Right. And so what's going to happen is you're going to make less using a target date than you will using a straight growth stock mutual fund,

because you're going to earn an aggressive amount all the way up until and through the time that you take the money out. Now, the downside potentially is that the market went down and stayed down four years at the exact wrong time which would be like a record event so i didn't do that in other words i just bought mutual funds because of that concept right there uh it it comes down to timing the market number one number two um uh the other so you're you'll make less if you use the target but you're taking less risk maybe maybe yeah and congrats on the new baby that's seven weeks old four years old you're getting on baby step five these babies are going to be set up for success especially asking these questions and really thinking about where you're investing in the portfolio yeah and to christina's point you you know the fact that you actually are aware of

all of this and bothering is the answer to the equation not the difference in target versus growth the difference in target versus growth is almost two guys arguing over a cup of coffee about something it really doesn't matter much okay it'll matter some and so what i addressed kind of was the theory but the actual dollar change in the situation 98 of the dollar change in the situation is because you're a good dad right and you're addressing this you know two percent is the difference between Target and the difference in these two things. If you do a Target or I do is neither in neither case is the kid not going to go to school because of this. Because because we got a stud dad who's stepping up and doing his job here and taking care of business. To your point.

Right. A lot of people with a seven week old are just trying to focus on how much sleep they can get. You got that. That's a fair trying to focus on how much sleep they can get not you got that too that's a fair thing to focus on by the way uh spoken like a grandpa who keeps them occasionally all right megan is in nashville hi megan welcome to the ramsey show hi how are you dave and christina great what's up okay so i just graduated from undergrad debt-free, and I have about $8,000 in my emergency fund, and I'm about to start my Ph.D. next month, and the program is fully funded, and additionally they pay us a stipend of $35,000 a year.

So essentially I'm getting paid to pursue my degree. Dadgum, girl. Get it, girl. Yeah. What are you studying? So I actually met you a couple days ago. It's a Ph.D. in the biomedical sciences. Oh, girl. Yeah. What are you studying? So I actually met you a couple days ago. It's a Ph.D. in the biomedical sciences at Vanderbilt. It's an interdisciplinary program the first year, and then you specialize.

Well, you're so dadgum smart they're paying you to go there. You're amazing. It's a good gig, yeah. It's a fellowship deal, huh? What was that? Is it a fellowship? So the first year, I think it's just paid for by the school and then depending on what lab you join then like those grants that go towards the research

are also paying their phd students what are you going to do with your life um so i'd like as of now i do like academia like being a scientist, teaching while also being a scientist at a university. Yeah, I think that's going to be perfect. Yeah, it sounds appealing to me right now, but there's also different things like industry and government and all types of different jobs that you can look into. I was just interested what your goal was. This is very cool because you're obviously unbelievably bright. Congratulations. Very well done

well thank you i think her purse is smarter than me so but yeah um but yeah uh so what's your question then is what okay so after building up my emergency fund to 15 000 which is my goal right now um it seems like my next step would be to begin investing into retirement 15%. But I did meet with a smart investor pro and he recommended not to do so because I am in school and to like first start investing in non-retirement account because he said it was important to keep my money liquid, especially that I'm in school. Good answer. This is usually the advice. Good answer. That is usually the advice.

Yeah. But for some reason, I feel like I'm in a different situation than, you know, an undergrad student because the program is fully funded. And additionally, I'm being paid. So to me, it doesn't seem very different than if I were to get a job right after undergrad. So my question is, like, once I do fully fund my emergency fund, what should I do with the leftover money that I have? Yeah, the difference is you're a glorified intern now.

When you graduate, you're going to be making bank. Mm-hmm. So this is not like your big girl job, I mean. So, you know, I'm going to err on the side of safety in this case. You have so much to concentrate on to go through a Ph.D. program. That is a rigorous process, particularly at Vandy. And you're up to the challenge. You can do it.

But I don't want you concentrating on money. I want you concentrating on finishing this Ph.D., and then the money will come. Yes. Yeah, because if you're screwing around over PhD, and then the money will come. Yes. Yeah, because if you're screwing around over here with investments on the side, you've got your brain half into this stuff. I'm going to stick with what the Smart Investor Pro said, because he said what I told him to say, by the way, which is when you're in college, pile up cash.

You are the best possible investment. Invest in yourself, even though you're not having to pay for anything here. I got that. But this is just your safety net to make sure you finish this because i can't think of anything more important than you finishing this in your world it's a big deal it's good this is the ramsey show We'll see you next time. Christina Ellis, Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host today. Drop by the Ramsey Solutions headquarters anytime you'd like. We do this radio show, this podcast, this this youtube event whatever you want to call this thing the ramsey show for three hours every day from one to four central time and lots of folks as

they're traveling somewhere else drop by here on their way to whatever their destination is and just hang out for a little while watch the show happen and there's free coffee homemade cookies and uh we've got a whole visitor center and the show is done on the glass, so you get to watch us do this, which is questionable, but you do get to watch it, and we don't charge you for it, so if you don't like it, we can just cut our pay in half, but either way. And in the lobby where all this happens is a stage we built when we built this building for Debt Free Screams.

Justina is on that stage how are you justina i am fantastic dave how are you better than i deserve where do you live i am from manchester new hampshire welcome to nashville thank you welcome good to have you now how much debt have you paid off i paid off 271 819 dollars goodness. Goodness! And how long did this take? 38 months. Wow. Very long months. And your range of income during this time?

Started at about $105,000 and went up to $187,000. Ooh. Just about. Okay, what do you do for a living? I am a physician assistant. Oh, PA. Okay. All right.

Good for you and so based on that information i'm going to guess and say that was student loan debt yes sir wow had a couple little ankle biters had some medical debt um had some personal loans some credit cards but 255 000 was sally may's eviction notice so you're what, 28? 28, yes. I'm guessing, but that's about what the numbers would tell me. Good stuff. Well done. Amazing.

So you came out of school, big old pile of student loans, intimidating as crud, but you've got the ability to create a big shovel as a PA, and you went after it, and you've been working your tail end off all through COVID and everything else here, and you knocked this thing out. Tell us the what inspired you to do that how'd you get connected to us what's the what's the backdrop yeah so I actually was living in fantasy land

when I graduated I was told by a bunch of broke people I took financial advice from that I would be fine because I was going to have a great income So I kind of ignored the fact that I had student loans. I knew I had them. I didn't look at the number. And when I got my first paycheck as a PA, I went out to a very fancy dinner, enjoyed myself greatly. And then a couple weeks later, the interest on my student loans capitalized

and I gained about $40,000 just in interest. Oh, nice. And then that made me look at the balance and when I saw that it crossed over a quarter of a million dollars, I went, oh, that's a problem. Yeah, it felt, honestly, that was the moment that it felt like I got punched in the stomach. Yeah.

And I thought, okay, I don't know that this great, fantastic income that I worked so hard for is going to get me out of this anymore. It scared you. It did. Very badly. And just a few weeks after that, I had a really great paycheck and ended up cashing out a coin jar to get a tank of gas. And that was the never again moment for me. I said, something has to change. So I, in a panic, Googled how in the world do I pay off these student loans as fast as possible? And honestly, I was looking for the magic pill, the secret, the, you know, the,

the quick answer. Dr. Righteous script, right? Exactly. Exactly exactly you know i wanted the the quick answer the forgiveness whatever i could do um to get them gone as fast as possible and that's when i found a youtube video of somebody else doing a debt-free scream um who was in a very similar situation to me and i thought oh that's just one off you know that's just that that one person and then all of a sudden there was another and another and another and okay, well, all these people are doing this. I can too. Yeah. There's nothing special about them. I can do it too. That's it. It's a lot of hard work. Yeah. So what kind of things did you do to get out of debt? You obviously have a great income.

Was that all your primary job? Did you do side hustles? What'd that look like? So part of that income jump is changing jobs. So I actually moved from Connecticut up to New Hampshire. So I had a job change, which helped a little bit, but I kept the job in Connecticut because the pay was very good during COVID. So I was actually commuting from New Hampshire down two states away for a side hustle. So I would work my regular job during the week. I would go down there on the weekends. I would work extra shifts. And then on my primary job,

I was also picking up overtime on-call shifts overnight. I was doing anywhere from 60 to 80 hours on average. My record was 127 hours in one week. So it was just a lot of hours, a lot of hours. Yeah. That's incredible. Because all of this was right lot of hours. Yeah. That's incredible. So the, because all of this is right in the middle of COVID. Yes, sir.

And so the 38-month lands right over the top of that. So sadly, that actually helped your income. It did. There was no shortage of hours. It desperately needed your help. Yes. Yeah. And there was a shortage of every type of medical personnel at that time.

And so, wow, wow. Did your coworkers think you were kind of crazy? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No question. They all have a touch of the doc-itis, as you like to say.

So nobody was doing what I was doing. Yeah. Are you glad you did it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. How did it feel to be free? It's a weight off. I mean, it's indescribable, honestly.

I feel like I can breathe again. Yeah. I don't owe anything to anybody. Nobody's coming after me. Yeah. If we take this 38 months and make the beginning of that be the beginning of a 10-year period, after 10 years you're going to be so far financially ahead of the docs who did not do this. Yeah.

Because now you've got a $200,000 income basically with no debt. Yep. And you've got the ability to build wealth, the ability to be generous, the ability to make choices in your career. You're not trapped by some program. You're not trapped by some kind of golden handcuff process that's all tied to the student loan debt you've got the you know and every one of those things are going to cause you to go crazy this is amazing you did so good yeah yeah

she's powerful this is incredible this is so powerful and especially right now for people listening there's so many people that are feeling anxiety about the student loan moratorium ending, and they think the same thing. You know, I got a great job. I don't have to worry about this, about paying it off. I'm just going to carry these loans around forever. What would you tell those people? It's the mental aspect of it. You know, it's the fact that I can go to sleep at night, and I know that I owe nothing to

anybody. And bigger than that, the last couple of years has been a huge behavioral change for me. I am a completely different person than I was three years ago. In what way? I am much more intentional, both with my money and with the decisions that I make in my everyday life. I mean, I think before I was kind of just floating through life and I was letting life happen to me. And now I take value in taking control over my life. Yeah, it's interesting.

The empowerment part of being empowered to take over this money thing and beat this debt down tells you I can do this in other areas. It tells you i actually have more control of things than i like to think and people like to think so let me ask you about something else that just popped into my head i'm just really curious basically during covid you were working a bizarre number of hours and there was a period of those months where i'm guessing even you didn't know what you were running into i mean you're't know what you were running into. I mean, in a sense, you were running into a burning building every day

because, you know, after a while, we began to get data and we began to realize the situation and some of the stuff was overblown and there was a lot of drama on COVID. But in the early days of that, the medical professionals were, you had to think, I may be taking my life in my hands. You adapt. professionals were you had to think i may be taking my life in my hands you adapt you adapt but you weren't going into those situations for money you were going to those situations because you're a health care professional yeah that's what i put words in your mouth but i assume

yeah that's the profession that i chose and that's the life that i that i chose and you know i love what i do because because a't do anything else. There is a number of, not a lot of, I don't know what the number is, but there's a number of people in that world who just chose to not go. Well done.

We're proud of you. It's an amazing young woman. We got a copy of Baby Steps Millionaires and all the other books for you. $272,000 paid off in 38 months making $105,000 to $187,000. Justina from Manchester, New Hampshire.

Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. I'm debt-free! I'm debt-free! If I go into a hospital and I need a PA, I hope she's there. This is The Ramsey, personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

John is with us in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi, John. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Thanks, Dave and Christina. I really appreciate you taking my call. The question is probably not typical, but I'm part of a church board that's pretty conservative and has managed to get themselves out of debt and carry no debt. Unfortunately, we're in the middle of a voting period of deciding whether or not to do. Unfortunately, we're in the middle of a voting period of deciding whether or not to do a church remodel, and the majority of the board is comfortable with obtaining a $1 million loan to conduct this church remodel. And obviously, I'm not. I've shared my opinions. I've shared Proverbs 22-7 with them and lots of other things I've learned from you.

But I was just wondering if you had any guidance on maybe trying to come up with a resolution. Well, there's a lot of factors at play here. I've been in these situations myself a couple times. Number one, you don't and I don't believe that debt is a sin, according to the Bible. I hope you don't. I don't. No, I don't. But I also can't find a single time in Scripture God used debt to do His work.

Larry Burkett used to say that there's no time in Scripture that the Amalekites had the Israelites, him down in the, getting ready to kill them off in the canyon, and so they did a bond issue. It's just not in there. They ran down to the bank and a bond issue it's just not in there they ran down to the bank and got a loan it's not in there there's no time there's no positive reference to debt in scripture and so biblically speaking debt is stupid but it's not a sin it's just dumb right okay now you got a group of people disagree with that on your board, obviously. You've got to reconcile several different things. So you've covered that issue with them already. And, again, I'll quote Larry Burkett because he's who taught me a lot of these things,

especially from a Christian viewpoint or biblical viewpoint. He used to say that too often the church board looks more like the chamber of commerce than anything else, because it's people in the church, usually men, who are successful business people in the community. And so the pastor and the congregation looks to the successful business people to run the business and the governance of the church. And so it's not unusual for your church board to be a banker a car dealer an insurance agent uh or whatever on there and and so and the problem with that is they bring their best ideas and think that they are the truth rather than i mean you got a banker on there that you know rather than what does scripture say? And so where I think, and apparently you think, that Scripture ought to be the baseline, the plumb line by which we make these decisions.

And so then that brings up a couple things, all right? Then that brings us down to they're going to do it anyway, right? Right. Well, we're going to vote on it and decide. We haven't voted yet. I mean, if you can persuade enough of them to use the biblical plumb line rather than their professional training to make this analysis, which is what should be done, then you can probably talk them out of it.

But a lot of times you can't. And I've been in those situations where the guys I'm arguing with are friends of mine, but they're just wrong. Right. Exactly. And so then you've got to decide a couple things number one i would never tell someone in a congregation to leave a church just because the church took on debt i'm vehemently against it but again i don't think it's a sin i just think it's stupid and if you leave a church every time you disagree with something the church does you're gonna be in a different church every week because there's always some part of church is you get to disagree i mean that's just all you

just count on being upset about something and if not somebody will make up something to be upset about and so the times you should leave a church is when you have uh lost hope in the integrity or the wisdom of the leadership and the only time i have left the church is over that or i've lost hope in the integrity of the leadership or i've lost hope in the path that they're on i just cannot align with that but it's never over a single thing uh with you know it could be over a doctrinal issue or something else but it's never over a single thing uh with you know it could be over a doctrinal issue or something else but it's never over a single event like okay i left because they did this remodel i i would not tell you to do that i would though it would be hard for me to sit in leadership on this board if they're going to go against something that is a core tenet of my life.

Because I'm going to then be endorsing, in a sense, my presence. If I stay on this board, I'm going to be endorsing what I believe to be something that is very, very wrong direction. Again, it's not an integrity issue. It's not a salvation issue and that kind of thing. And I'm not telling you to resign. I'm just sharing with you where my heart is. In other words, if you were a congregate, I would just say vote against it, make your best case, and then suck it up. And if there's no other reason, no other problems with this church, it's still your church.

But the fact I'm sitting on this board says that this has my name on this stupidity and i can't i would struggle with that but this to be very clear though i am not telling you to do that john and it's one of the reasons i don't sit on boards i'm on zero boards non-profit or otherwise i don't sit on boards because i'm a horrible board member, because I'm right and you're wrong. I really don't have any other gear, okay? And so that's a weakness of mine and a strength of mine, and I don't want to impugn that upon you. You're probably a more reasonable person. John, you said the church is debt-free currently, right? Correct. And I wanted to... I'm sorry, go ahead. How did they get debt-free? Is it just an older church that's never had debt, or was there any type of initiative to become debt-free?

No, they've paid off their debt, and we've been debt-free probably for a few years, and we do have some reserves. And my proposal is not to have absolutes like they've said. It's not, yes, we do the project, but no, we don't. How about we do the project in stages? There is a GC that proposed to the church and came up with these excuses why you don't want to do that. And I'd like to hear if Dave has an opinion since he just finished that major project. But that was kind of my approach. And after listening to the GC, I not only wanted to take a shower like Dave says,

I wanted to wash myself with bleach too. Which is another problem. You don't trust the guy's integrity. You don't think he's got the best interest of the client. You think he's got the best interest of his own pocket. Right, exactly. You're hiring the wrong guy even if you do the rehab. That's a separate issue.

One more problem. But, yeah, it can definitely be done in stages. Exactly. You're hiring the wrong guy even if you do the rehab. That's a separate issue. Yeah. One more problem. But, yeah, it can definitely be done in stages. Any construction project can be done in stages. Is it less convenient? Yes, it's less convenient. Is it, you know, but I, you know, if I was a leadership team, I would just go before the church and go, hey, guys,

this remodel is something that will help the cause of the kingdom. We'll be able to have more people in here. We'll be able to have more people in here. We'll be able to lead more people to Christ. We'll be able to disciple them better. It's a good move spiritually for us to do this. You guys need to start writing some checks so we can do it. And I think it helps to have those people that were involved in the last initiative to pay off debt tell their stories.

I was recently on my church board before we moved, and we went through a whole initiative where our church paid off debt, tell their stories. I was recently on my church board before we moved, and we went through a whole initiative where our church paid off debt. And then, of course, board members change out after a few years. And it was nice to have some of the older board members who had been through so much of the financials of our church and have been through, they've got the battle wounds of what it was like to have the stress of being on a board that's not debt-free and some of the challenges that comes with that. What's the total budget on this church john uh right now they're sitting 400 plus four hundred thousand dollars you know not that they're in the green four hundred thousand what's the top line what's the top line you mean of Your total annual income at this church. Oh, I don't have those exact numbers.

And you're on the board? Yeah, I don't have them in front of me. No, I mean, is it $7 million? Is it $1 million? What is it? No, no, yeah, it probably would be $1 million, somewhere in that range. Yeah, okay, well, let me give you another statistic, working with 50,000 churches. You're taking on so much debt, there's an 82% chance your pastor's going to be gone in 36 months because you're getting ready to strain this congregation. The pastor fallout with new debt within 36 months

is when it's a huge amount of debt in ratio to their revenues, it's massive because you're getting ready to strain the whole system. Don't do this. Please don't let them do this. Please. You're going to mess up a whole good thing. Oh, my gosh. I don't think you can stop them, though.

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