The Ramsey Show - App - Quit Letting Dumb Money Decisions Hold You Back

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

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Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life from the Ramsey Network and the Fair Wins Credit Union studio. This is the Ramsey show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one, bestselling author, is my co-host. He's also the host of a big runaway head on Ramsey Networks called the Front Row Seat. If you want to join him there, you'll see all kinds of very interesting people.

So jump in and join us today. The phone number is 825-5-2-25. Cody is in Austin, Texas. Merry Christmas, Cody. How are you? Merry Christmas. I'm good, Dave. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up? Well, I've stumbled against some obvious decisions that's led me into about $250,000 and consumer debt that has left me stumped on how me and my significant other can make headway to get this taken care of in a short amount of time or as quickly as possible. And it just seems like we run into a brick wall about beliefs on how we're going to do that. What's a lot, dude? I'm sorry.

What's it on? Break it down for me. The 250s on what? So we have, we have, I have a 401k loan that has about $21,000 in it. We have student loans in around 80,000. We have a car that's around 36. And then we have legal fees, things that we've both had to acquire over the course of a few years. It's around 20,000.

And then we did purchase a house, and we've added some debt there as far as just furniture and appliances and things that we're trying to get off. And that's the lowest hanging fruit of around eight. We're looking around 200, $250,000 that's just sitting out there. And then on top of that is I have a child with a former relationship, and that one takes out a huge chunk of our available money. What's your household income? So we sit around before taxes, well, about $200,000, but if you take out child service or child payments and things like that,

It's around 175. So we bring home after taxes around 11. Okay. And significant other. What's that mean? My fiancé. Yeah. So there's not a we then until you're married.

What's the wedding date? That has not been set yet. Why? We've had a run of things that's happened in both of our lives, and we just have, that's been pushed. But you bought a house together? That we did. We did buy a house together.

That's more difficult than getting married. I don't disagree with you. It's also dumber than crap, because you're going to get yourself into a mess, buying stuff with somebody you're not married to. And so, and so you're trying to act like your marriage. So, okay, the legal implications, the relational implications, and the career implications of trying to do this without being married, the data is all stacked against you.

So that is one thing that you're out over your skis on, one thing that you're trying to go uphill on. And the data is really, really clear, and there's a lot of research on this. Nobody seems to be talking about it because it's unpopular to talk about. So everybody gets pissed at me when I talk about it. But it's kind of like my spiritual gift, so it's okay. So that's one thing.

And legal fees, has that all, that's all from, child support issues and other things in the past? Primarily mine. I've spent a decade fighting for my first daughter and my first marriage. Yeah. Okay. All right. Is that over?

No, sir. So there's ongoing legal fees? Yes, sir. Okay. Yeah, the state of Texas stacks it against a father. Sure. Yeah, yeah. The, um, uh, okay, how much of the one-seven

and five is you and how much is her? You just broke up. You broke up. Try it again. I make 120 and she brings home 80, so we're sitting at the 200. Okay. But I take out the 25 because that's the child's four. Yeah, that's got to come out.

That is correct. Do not pass go, do not go to jail. Yeah, okay. All right, I'm good with that. Take care of the kid. That's a good thing. So how much is being put into your 401? case?

I have an employer match, and mine's every paycheck I get paid weekly, mine goes around 175 a week. And then that's 6%. So they match up to 6%. So I just make the match. Okay. And then she's at 4, they match at 4%. So she's at 4% of hers.

Okay. All right. Well, here's the thing. You can do what you want to do, but you called and asked. So we're going to be truthful with you because we love you and we want you to win. And what would I do if I woke up in your shoes knowing what I know now is I had to come to grips when I went broke years ago with the idea of if I keep doing what I've been doing, I'm going to keep getting what I've been getting. So for something to change, something's got

to change. Agreed? Agreed. And so, and then you can add with that formula then the more radically you change things, the more radically things will change. That makes sense? And so, in the words, the more bizarre you get, and the more your friends are looking at you like you've joined a cult and lost your mind, probably the more progress you're going to make away from being stuck, which is where you are right now. So that's the, you know, the decision-making framework that I'm going to give this advice in.

And then you've got to pick and choose. But I promise you, if you will go do every single thing I'm getting ready to tell you, in, um, let's see, three years you'll be 100% debt free, not counting the house. In, um, in four years, you'll have substantial assets. In 12 years, you'll be a millionaire. Okay. Okay. I'm all ears.

So the first thing I do is get married this weekend. Merry Christmas. Oh, ho, ho. there we go you know that's simple and uh rachel's uh anniversary is this coming friday so you can get married on rachel cruz's anniversary if you want there you go so um she got she's a christmas wedding it was a lot of fun so um gather up some friends you all been doing this for a while you've been playing house for a while it's time to be grownups now you're not college students sleeping around you go you know it's time to do this okay so and then then you're combined

you're locked legally you're committed into the future you develop a shared set of goals, a desired future where you want to go. I would stop all 401K contributions temporarily. I would get on a detailed written plan called a budget. I'm going to give you every dollar as your wedding gift. It's the world's best budgeting and finance app. And it's also going to walk you, not only do the budget, but it's also going to walk you through the stuff I'm teaching you.

I would sell everything in sight. No more renovations, no more furniture, no more nothing. beans and rice rice and beans you're not going to see the inside of a restaurant unless you're working there you're not going on vacation that's for dadgumshire you are broke people and you've got to clean this up i'd look at selling this car probably just almost symbolically it's not as much of the money issue as it is it's just stupid in the middle of all this and it's really the only thing you've got you can sell you can't sell the lawyer or the credit cards or the 401k so um and and then I'm just going to list these deaths smallest to largest, and I'm going to squeeze every dollar out of my life.

And like you said, I'm going to knock off the low-hanging fruit first, take the littleest, smallest to the largest, and go in that order and get in absolute crazy attack mode. Hang on, Christian will pick up and help you out with all those gifts. Give him a total money makeover book, too. And Ken, if you'd shut up, I could talk. I was going to say, what do I add to that? I just slow clap like you made a par put Hunter is in Cincinnati Hey Hunter, what's up?

Hello, Mr. Ramsey, how are you? Better than I deserve. How can I help? Hi. So I am recently married within the past three months and I, my wife has loans, student loans and car payments and we are in debt. I personally have zero debt and I owe nobody anything. And we are married but living separately by choice because we wanted to knock out this debt

before we went in and decided to buy a house or something. And so I wanted to see what your advice would be for us to knock out this debt before jumping into buying a house. You got married three months ago and you don't live with your wife? Unfortunately, no. We are in a very special situation where we're lucky not that both of our parents still let us live at our respective parents' houses. so we're weekend warriors is what I call it. I also have a pretty... Hold on a second.

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. What is weekend warrior? I'm afraid to ask this, but I got to know. They get to see each other on the weekend. You guys go to one of the other's parents' house on the weekend? Yes. Yes. Are you in different cities, honey?

We are in different states. Okay. Where are we going to live when we get married? planning on we are already married but planning on really you're still married to your planning on living in Ohio granted I am a professional basketball player and I have been for the past two years now my wife has a 9 to 5 job and we are we got married very quickly so she could join in and a contract for me to play overseas but I didn't get the contract that I expected so now we're kind of standing here, married, but not living together.

So your professional life is overseas playing ball? Yes, sir. Okay. All right. But right now you don't have a job? I do. So I am working for a friend. He owns an auction business, and he pays me in cash.

I just work the hours that I can and the hours that I want, but I've been increasing those hours and days because I want to be better for God willing, our future family and my wife. There's so many things to talk about. What's the future on the basketball contract? When does that come up again? So I signed a small contract coming up here in the months of February, March, April, and May. and that will be in the United States

and they're providing housing for my wife and I for those months for those months and then I will be getting before tax is that in the NBA sub-league I've forgotten what it's called now but is that what that is? It's the league right below the one that you're thinking of so you're way down low so how much money this is not a lot of money

and that's why I asked that how much is that contract for for those few months well it would be three grand a month before tax so what do you what do you when do you go when you're when you're in Europe what do you make it really depends on the league and it depends on what have you made in the past made 2400 a month and then the last one was a thousand a month so you're not going overseas for that when you can make money in the NBA Development League so what is your what's your career plan because those all suck um my career plan is eventually i

actually want to become a preacher okay um but i i how much debt does how much debt does your wife have an emergence in in student loans uh so in two loans one is a little over 5,000 another is 13 and then federal aid and student loan is 5,000 and then a car payment with 5,000 left okay and so you're planning on base camp to be Ohio yes sir where you live right now yes sir okay all right well the best way to um attack this financial situation is to create a a more symbiotic relationship, and that would mean that you and your wife go get an apartment tomorrow, and you actually live together seven days a week, because what you're doing is unbelievably weird.

Yeah, you're telling me. Well, wait a second. So I've got to ask really quick, and we're not picking on you, but I really want to know. You called, and you're used to coaching. If you responded to Dave's comment that way, believe me, I know, that leads me to believe, tell me if I'm wrong, that this is not an arrangement that you came up with? This isn't your idea, or am I wrong? It is both of our ideas.

Again, I was anticipating this contract to come by. That's part of the reason why we got married so early. The main reason is because we both believe in God and we wanted to be married. But when I was negotiating it, it did not go the way that I anticipated. No, listen, listen, listen, listen, I get it. I got to tell you something. You need to choose, which, first of all, I don't think you should be in either parents' house, but you should choose one and live together.

Let's get this thing going. You, as a pastor, you would never tell a young couple to do what you're doing, would you? No, you wouldn't. And you need to get like an apartment, and you need to leave your parents, both of you. Yeah. And you've been being a basketball gypsy, and now you got married. And so if you're going to be a basketball gypsy, she's going to be riding in the trunk with you, and or you're going to move on and move to you know move towards becoming a pastor and moving on

so I appreciate that you wanted to get married rather than shacking up I appreciate that thank you for that good man good idea bad idea to live separately and in order for to pay off the debt that is not no no no and apparently there's not room or it's not conducive to a married couple for what for you guys to be at either family's house which it suits me fine too I recommend all young people go get a life away from their parents, married and unmarried, especially married. Go get a life. And that's going to make you more money, and it's going to make your career blossom, because

it's going to make your manhood and your relationship blossom. And, you know, she's got to be away from her mommy, and so do you. And, you know, mommy can just email recipes, and that's about it, over the fence. that's it and that's you guys really really really need to you're going to do better to answer your basic to get her out of debt you guys out of debt you phrased that properly but from the debt that she brought in faster when you're working together even with an apartment rent because you're both going to be looking at this going I'm going to work all the time and when I get home I'm going to see my wife and I'm going to work all the time and I'm going to get home I'm going

to see my wife and we don't do $1,000 a month stuff in 2025 and call that professional. That's slightly above hobby. Yeah, I was going to say professionally speaking. I have a good friend who was in AA baseball many years ago. He and his wife, straight out of college, and they gave it a timeline. They both sat down and said, all right, we're going to give it this much time, and they're going to put some measurables on it, and you know you've played at the European level

or wherever you've played internationally, and now you're in the lowest development league. You know what the odds are. But you've got to have somebody in your life, a coach on that team, the general manager, up the line. Let's put a real number on how long we're going to give this. And you've got to work extra, like Kurt Warner, the famous now Hall of Fame quarterback, stock and shelves. This has been done before, but you need some real measurables on the basketball side. And your wife, now we agree, this is how much we're going to give it. That's what we're going to do together.

She needs to be on the road with you, like Dave said. You guys need to be in this together. You guys can scrape by on this $3,000 a month in hustle and learn how. bad this situation is. I think you've got to be together. I just really wanted to hit that, but I think you have got to get to a point pretty quickly where we go, we're going to realistically measure what my opportunity is in professional basketball. That's here and abroad. Give it a time length, get retested and see if there's something there. And if it's not, it's going to be hard to give it up. But you've got to walk away and walk forward. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.

so I can't tell somebody else to do it. It's that simple. John's in Louisville, Kentucky. Hey, John, how are you? I'm doing okay, Dave. It's a pleasure to speak with you guys. You too, sir. What's up?

Well, I had a series of unfortunate events this year, and I just really want to try to get some advice. advice on if I'm making the right decision for me and my family. I'm a single income earner family of four, me, my wife, and my two sons. And at the beginning of the year, in March, my company sold out to another company, and during the transition, I was paycheck to pay. I'm still paycheck to paycheck, but I was managing my bills. When my company sold out, I was weekly pay, and then the new company come in and did biweekly pay. which set me behind three weeks without a paycheck after that last paycheck.

So I leapt through that, and then in May I lost my brother. So I went from that to a week and a half out with my brother, you know, passing away. And it just, from then on, I've been playing the catch-up game. And I've got down to not only personal issues with myself and substance abuse and getting through that. and then now, you know, I'm more than 90 days behind on every non-essential bill outside of what I need to keep house lights and things like that going. So what my plan is, and me and my wife have set down,

and we both agree 100% is that we want to invest. You know, it's not going to be a large portion, like $5,000, $7,000 into a home, that we can purchase, own it outright, and place it on to her grandmother's property, allowing us to have 100% access of my income to try to nip this out as quick as I can to get that back to square root. But I think the only advantage that I have is I'm sub-15,000 dollars in total debt. So 15,000 clears your debt. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, sir. Okay. Yes, sir. And what do you make, sir? Right now, I bring home about $2,200 every two weeks, so 44 a month. Plus every two, that's every two weeks, so plus two times a year you have $6,600. Yes. Okay.

And what do you do? I'm a truck driver. Okay. All right. And what does it take to bring you current? $15,000 makes you debt-free, but what brings you current? Bring me current. I'd probably have to be just south of probably $35.

$100. Yes, sir. Okay. And where would you get the $5,000 to buy the trailer? Well, that's what, speaking with my wife, we agreed to take what we potentially could get back on our income taxes next year to try to just wing it out. I know it's a short matter of time before these

things will go into collections, and I figured that once we got onto the product. What kind of debt is it? I'm sorry? What kind of debt is it that you're behind on? I have two personal loans and credit cards, and

I take that but three personal loans and credit cards, and then my wife has credit cards as well. How much is your rent? My rent is $1,600. Okay, so you're not talking about making this move. Well, no, I guess you would file your taxes after the first of the year. So you'd get the money probably in February, right? Yes, sir.

Which would also be enough to catch you up. Like, close to it. Yeah. As long as I could find it cheap enough and, you know, something that would accommodate us. No, no, I'm just saying if you didn't buy the trailer and you stayed in the rental, you could use the refund and be called. up? Close to it, not all the way.

No, you said you're $3,500 behind, and you're talking about buying a $5,000 trailer. What's your refund going to be? Which is it? I'd say it's probably $6,000,000, I mean, it is that. Six or $7,000 makes you current. So that would bring my loans back up to current? Yeah, and you don't have to buy a trailer. I see that.

But, I mean, the trailer was an end goal for us anyway to get out of payment. rent to try to move on to purchasing property after we did, you know, paid off what we owed. I figured once we could move into the trailer, then we could wipe out pretty much every debt within a mere month and a half, two months. That's probably pretty close to true, okay? I'll tell you this, you've done a really good job of analyzing and knowing where you are. I'm proud of you. You've really got your fingers around this because you're pretty strong.

stressed and in the middle of that stress you've still done a good job of laying out a game plan and thinking it through. I don't have a real fault with any of your reasoning. So here's what I would add to this, okay? Sometimes I've seen people do stuff like this and then they don't play all the way through and you have to make a commitment that we are going to be in this trailer no longer than 24 months. Before months, me and my wife was thinking somewhere along the rhymes of three to five years. Okay, 36 months, 36 months, not three to five, not a vague number. Okay.

Put a date on the calendar. We are out of this trailer, and we're going to do whatever it takes, extra jobs, no vacations. We're going to be debt-free, have an emergency fund and a good down payment on a house, and get out of this trailer, because otherwise you're going to end up raising your kids in a trailer that you didn't want to buy. right and you don't want to do that you don't want to look back in 10 years slips away and you know it can absolutely yeah what what needs to happen for her to be able to work um right now me and her agree that because of the pricing of child care that it would it wouldn't really be with she is in school she is learning going what she's back in school trying to uh finish out the the studies that she chose

But right now, me and her agreed, she wants to be a phlebotomist. What's that going to turn into? Let's assume she has that degree today. What job is she getting? She would basically, you know, be the person that would draw people's blood in doctors' offices or hospitals. And how long does it take her to get that certification? Right now, as long as because the school that she is in is kind of like a pay-as-you-go. old thing so like I said everything that's not essential to the house I've kind of just stopped

yeah right now she's not in school so let's put her to work right now well she she has she does um like delivering packages as kind of a contract job and that that helps make up a little bit but as far as finding someone to take care of our children how old are the boys my youngest will be two on the 19th of this month and then my oldest is four okay you got little's Okay, that makes a difference. Yes, sir. All right. So here's the thing.

Here's what you want to do. You want to put a deadline on the trailer if you're going to do it. I'm not sure I would do it, but I'm not sure I wouldn't do it. But if I did do it, I don't want to get stuck there. I want to make enough radical changes in our lives that we move away from that time in our life, and it's in the rear of you mirror forever. Okay. You guys have been through hell, and the crummy year that you've had,

has highlighted for you that living paycheck to paycheck is no way to live. It's no fun. Not at all. And so when Sharon and I went through going broke, we had a never again moment. And I want to make sure that the two of you hold hands tonight and look each other in the face and say, never again. We're going to step into a trailer for 24 to maximum of 36, but never again are we going to be here? We're going to work like crazy people and we're going to have goals and we're going to live on less than we make. and we're not buying anything on debt, never again,

are we going to be back here? We're having an emergency fund so that a lousy 10 grand doesn't completely stand us on our head. Yes, sir. Because $20,000 would change your whole life right now. Yes, sir. That's how quick this could turn.

You didn't call me up with $300,000. You called me up with $15,000, and $3,500 gets your current. So you can do this, man. And I'm telling you, you have a good brain. The brain you used to work through this was excellent. I'm proud of you. And you go now go play through and look back a decade from now and go, that was the time.

The year my brother died and they changed my pay, I said never again. And that's what Sharon and I did. We look back. We said never again. 1988, no way I'm reliving that freaking year. There's a bankruptcy filing on the wall right across from me in the office right here. I'm not doing that crap again. Never again.

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you've got to raise. Don't live normal when you can live like no one else. Start every dollar for free in the app store or Google Play. Max is in San Antonio. Hey, Max, what's up? Hey, thanks for having me on, long-time listener. Thank you, sir. How can we out? Well, I'm 58 years old. I've been divorced now for a little over five years, and I've been dating the lady who is 57, and she is a surviving widow. If we get married, before we're sick, before she is 60, she uses all of her, loses all of her surviving spouse, Social Security benefits. And he was a big contributor up until he was about 58 years old, so she would receive

the max. And I've heard your conversations today with people about getting married and how the chances are divorce if you don't get married within a certain point of time. We've been dating now for a little over two years, and I was just wondering if it was worth it to get married now and forego that potential $4,000 a month for the rest of her life. What's your household income? What's your income? I'm sorry.

My income's about $150,000 a year. And what's her income? Her income is just living off of what she got, and she's down to a little over $600,000. Okay, what's your nest egg? That's money. My nest egg is recovered to just a little over a million in my retirement account, and I have no debt, and I have a paid for a house. It's a little house here in Texas worth about $400,000. Okay.

Have you all been discussing marriage prior to this thought pattern here? sure yes sir we've been dating for a little over two years and fell in love immediately and uh been talking both of our parents about it and both of our family she's got two stepkids and i have two skeptics of course they're all grown everybody loves each other and doing great that's good but okay i'll tell you you ask you ask you a question and i'll give you a straight answer the um sure the way i try to do stuff and max you said you're a long-time listener so you know this. I try to put my, I've never been in your situation. I'm 65, so we're fairly close in age, but if I try to put myself in your position, what would I do if I were in your shoes?

And for me, the joy of a lifetime companion that I'm in love with supersedes 48. grand a year. Sure. And for me, that's called marriage. I'm a person of faith, and that's called marriage. And I don't have any confusion about that at all in my mind or in my spirit either one. For me, I don't want to look at her dad in the eyes unless I'm saying this is my wife. For me, and I can't make that be for you.

You've got to decide that. you guys are you know you're going to have a net worth of two and a half million dollars uh or more and a really good household income uh and you don't have to have the 48 000 it's just a minor thing um and so for me it's just for 50 grand what can i buy i can buy a marriage license and 50 grand a year but um but you know uh well Well, we're trying to take that into account to where we need to retire. Since we've just found each other late, we're trying to figure that into retire. Well, you've got $2.5 million to retire off of.

I think you're going to be all right. Well, the way we figure that out, too, is it's not necessarily the $220,000 a year. Of course, the broker has to take a fee of 1% and then it's taxed. And we'd have to get our income up pretty good to the tax. have met of what we feel like we'd like to be able to enjoy. Max, which way were you leaning before you called us? Obviously, he didn't want to marry her. I'm just curious.

Oh, no, I do want to. Absolutely. I mean, you answered my question with numbers telling me why you shouldn't do it. And that tells me what you want to do. So, no, I mean, you do what you want to do. I'm going to be mad at you either way. We'll still be friends. but um but the uh but i personally i i just see a tremendous spiritual relational emotional and

even financial value in being married more than 48 grand a year i just do i just think it's valuable and if i were 57 and admit the person i wanted to spend the rest of my life with there's no way i'm letting her freaking get away over some math nerd stuff with my financial planner, you know, trying to figure out, well, I've got to pay him 1%. Who gives a crap? If you don't want to pay him 1%, don't pay him, but don't lose her either. Well, I think it's really clear for our audience, understand how we view marriage. And no judgment here, but my guess is that they're living together. And so when you've already made that decision, we're living together, fell in love with her early, they've been dating two years.

I'm reading between the lines. It's probably what's going on. So therefore, this is all about a money question and we're coming at this not from a money answer not in the situation it's just the way we see things so yeah but here's the here's the other thing it is it does end up being a money thing especially maybe not in his situation exactly but as much but in when i'm talking these 24 year olds and whatever and you know we've been we've been living together for four years yeah great okay but all the data says when you're 46 that that that you missed out on hundreds of thousands of that's right for that 24 year old okay so the it is math too and i've got to think that the marriage advantage plays into this situation although i can't put my finger on exactly where it will

but i'm thinking it's 50 grand a year easy um the working together the combining of forces yes the combining of how we're going to get at this i just i think it has a monetary value that would not be my motivation to your point though that's all i'm saying i agree it's not the driving decision. We just happen to have a position that the money plays out as well. In other words, we think this is a moral decision that also has money implications in the positive. And it's not our opinion, by the way. Dave's right. There are tons of studies. In fact, there's probably a new one that comes out every year about the financial advantages of being married. Yeah. Now, the 35-year-old as an example, it's not Max's situation again. Right. But the 35-year-old

that is married has 13 times the net worth of an unmarried 35. year old. There it is. That means shacked up, and that means single, and that means divorced, and that means widowed. It could be anything, but an unmarried 35-year-old has 13 times less money on average in America. It's a huge advantage.

Married men live nine years longer on average than unmarried men. Deloney thinks it's because wives keep us from doing stupid stuff. there's no question. I don't think that's the singular issue, but clearly a key issue. You're going to eat that? Yes, I'm going to eat that. And I'm going to have two of them. Or this is the one that I get a lot. You're going to try that? Are you aware of how old you are? You know, it's like the thing that could cause a lot of bodily harm, which might begin the downfall. But that's an actual number. And married ladies only live four years longer than unmarried ladies. So it extends male

What is it that we do for women? Let's let's get something to score for the men here What do we do that allows women to live longer? I suspect I don't know Higher net worth I couldn't think of anything either Oh man that's terrible

That's Deloney's take on it I don't know I mean But seriously there's all this data on your Your You're not only your in Oh incomes Married men's incomes are way higher than unmarried men's incomes, way higher. And I suspect that's because there's a lash on their back. I don't know.

I got it, Dave. It just came to me. The reason that married women live four years longer, if I got that right, is because they have more purpose in continually trying to take care of us and raise us. The maternal instinct of a married woman remains strong, even after their children leave. Because they're taking care of us. I think that's what it is. I'm going to stick to that.

They have purpose. There is. They have purpose. That's what it is. You're probably on to something. I love it. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fair Wins Credit Union Studio. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host today.

Thank you for joining us. Brad is with us in Chicago. Hey, Brad. you. Doing good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? So my question is should we or should you ever borrow money for your tithe? Why would you have to do that? So we order business and we've had a pretty successful year but we bought some equipment and we paid cash for that which kind of left us a little bit cash depleted here in December to be able to, what I like to do is give, you know, at least 10%, not more.

So my question would be, do I borrow money? You give 10% of your net profit, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, purchasing equipment lowers your net profit, does it not? Yeah, I mean, but I would depreciate it over seven years. But that's a tax issue. That's not a tithe issue. If I spend a million dollars on a piece of equipment, I don't have the million dollars anymore.

Correct, but if I look at my income statement, it would still show, you know, a pretty healthy profit. But the tithe is not on that. The tithe is not on taxable income. The tithe is on net increase, according to Deuteronomy. If we're getting technical, I mean, I assume you're asking a technical, biblical question. And so I'm approaching it from that angle. To start with, I'm not. a Pharisee about this, and I don't think God is either. I'm pretty sure, based on my study of

scriptures, that God loves a cheerful giver, and he loves tithers as much as he loves non-tithers, and when I, when in doubt, I overgive, because when I get up there, I don't want to be wrong. It's not any harder than that for me, okay? So it's not, I don't try to figure it out too much. I tithe on my taxable cash flow income. And so if I spend a million dollars on a piece of equipment, regardless of what the IRS says, they don't get to enter into the discussion on my spiritual walk, for God's sakes, really. Yeah. And so, yeah.

So, I mean, I don't really care what the EBITDA is, and I don't care what the venture capitalist says. All I care is, what's my net increase. And I do that prior to taxes what my net cash flow is for the year. And usually, not counting depreciation issues, it would be your tax. taxable income, which would be what you would deal with. Again, with a lot of grace and mercy, because this is more of that. But no, I would never borrow money because there's a lot of indications in Scripture

not to borrow money. And so to borrow money and go against one scripture in order to keep another scripture is oxymoronic. So, no, we wouldn't do that ever. But just the point is you don't need to if you just define tithing a little differently. So to start with, and Ken, you're a pastor's kid, I want to get your, yeah, my theological buzzer is buzzing right now. But the, our P-K, but the, seriously, I, I'm a tither, okay?

I'm an evangelical Christian, and I believe in giving a tenth of your income to your local church. And as I study tithing, it is a New Testament thing, I believe. I have good friends that disagree with me, and they're wrong. We have all these wonderful arguments, Christian arguments, right? It are fun. But when in doubt, I give because the purpose of the tithe is not because God needs your money. And the purpose of your tithe is not so that God loves you more. And the purpose of the tithe is certainly not salvation.

And a tither is not a better Christian than a non-tither. None of that applies because we're all walking. We're all sinners saved by grace, those of us that are Christians, okay? And that's what we call ourselves. So we're all walking in this abundance of grace and mercy. So why does God have us to give? He has us to give to practice being a giver. I will say that my challenge, if I understood Brad correctly, my challenge with his question,

of course we're not going to borrow. So that's honestly nonsensical and non-biblical. However, the principle of tithing is about the first fruits. First fruits. So I don't think it's okay. to spend a million dollars on equipment and not have any money left over to actually, you know, so I get taxable income. I don't disagree with you said.

It is first fruits, meaning it's off the top, but it's off the top of your profits. I understand. Because Deuteronomy and first fruits are in the same thing. I understand it. Deuteronomy says, of your net increase. I totally agree. But in a business, here's where I'm sticking. The first part of your net increase is first fruit.

Yeah, but he went spent on a really. No, that's not a net increase. If I increase payroll, then I've increased my expenses and my business did not profit as much. Right. So I don't need to tie before I pay the payroll. I tie after I pay the payroll. And I tie that the very first dollar of profit after I pay the payroll. That's the first part.

Okay. It's not first before expenses. I agree. I agree with that. But what I'm getting at is that you, I think, as a steward of your business, need to manage your books. Payroll is one thing, a really expensive piece of equipment. I think to be able to say, well, I brought in all this money and I had all these expenses. I have a challenge with that.

I know you don't agree with me, but I'm challenged by that. I don't know enough about his equipment. I don't either, but maybe you're saying he bought too much stuff and took his margins down to nothing. That's what I'm saying. Now, that might be risky, okay? But I mean, out of the 300,000 that Ramsey takes in, I don't take anywhere near that. And we agree. We agree on that.

Most of it leaves in expenses, okay? No, I completely agree on that. And salaries and everything else. I don't, I don't, just because the company has revenue of 300,000, 300 million, just because there's 300 million in revenue, doesn't mean I get 300 million. Right. That's not how that works. But then the, and again, and again, I didn't get to follow up.

But my point is, I'd want to know what that was spending is on, because in your case, it's not willy-nilly and we're trying to get out of it. The second thing is the tithe also is what he pays himself. I'm assuming he's paying himself. Yeah, that's what it should be on. So the tithe is on what you pay yourself. So I just wanted to circle up on that. Again, equipment is equipment.

You've got to do it. But I'm also saying that I think if you're not careful, and again, I want to not be a Pharisee. And I think you're right. Yeah, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, when in doubt, up the tie. But, you know, like for instance, we hold. He should be tithing personally is what I want to drive on. I'll go ahead and take it a step further since you and I are having this discussion because it's fun.

Yeah. We teach entree leaders to hold back some of their profits in retained earnings. savings to run the business well. And I would not tithe on that until you take it home. I don't, by the way, until I take it home because it could be spent in the business. It's here to protect the business and could be – it could end up being an expense. Right. Like during COVID, it was an expense because we had to cover payroll, right?

We used retained earnings, some of it. So that kind of stuff. And that's taxable. Correct. That's right. You don't get the IRS taxes you on that, whether you take it home or not. So it's an interesting discussion, but the big thing is, is good on you for thinking about it. That's right.

Good on you for loving your faith walk and your God, enough that you even care about the answer to the subject, and good on you for being generous. But to borrow, to pay a tithe is missing the principle of the tithe. It's missing the whole thing. Yeah, absolutely. Then you're banker tithed for you. Oh, I think I'm going to puke a little. Alicia is in Maine. Merry Christmas, Alicia. How are you?

Hey, Dave. I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I recently found out I'm pregnant with our second child. Yay! Yeah, very excited about it. Only thing is, our house is pretty small. It's about nine higher square feet. So we've been trying to rack our brains on how to either expand it or be able to afford a new house.

But my husband is the sole provider. He makes, you know, he's a mechanic. So he doesn't make a ton. But so we're just really stuck and don't know how to make enough income to bridge the gap in between. where we're at now and if we lose the assistance by making more money. Why does him being a mechanic mean he doesn't have money? It should mean he does have money. Unfortunately, in our area where we live, we're in rural Maine, there's not a lot of opportunities for them to make a lot of money. Did I hear you just say losing assistance if he made more

money? Yeah, we're like in this weird place. where if we make a little bit more money, then we lose assistance from the state. I am unfortunately well-versed in government programs. So you're on some type of welfare? Yeah, so my daughter is under main care, which is like insurance is a huge expense here. Okay. That's I'm sure a lot of other places. We save, we get about $400 or $500 worth of assistance per month,

if you count the health care and the wick. You're not going to do this, but here's what you should do. You should move. I know. It's so hard because all over the family is here. It's not hard. People who are broke and have no opportunity in an area have moved to an area where there was opportunity in economic growth since time began.

Yeah. the chances that I'm going to let my wife and child be on welfare and live in a 900 square foot home because I can't make any money because we live in an area that doesn't support a normal mechanic's salary are zero I'm going to load up the truck and head to Beverly yeah how long has your family how long has your family been in the area my family has been here my grandparents are from here okay so a long long time

have you seen many people get out a lot of my generation has left why do you think they've left yeah I know it's because of the opportunities okay so you really are you called us for one reason I think you didn't expect this but I mean this really Dave is absolutely right you can't call and say, how do we increase our income to get a little bit bigger house here in a 900

square foot place if you aren't willing to get off of government income? And you're right. They will penalize you. That's the whole point of benefits. They're going to cap you. And then you get stuck in this cycle. So Dave, exactly right. And yet I talked to a guy the other day, and I know your husband's probably not a diesel mechanic. He's probably a car mechanic. But I talked to a diesel mechanic the other day making $120 a year. They ain't on welfare. They can make good money. They ain't on welfare.

And we don't want to live on welfare. That's our thing. Then I don't want to live there. But you're okay with it. I'm okay with it for now because we don't really have another option. That's not true. I just gave you one. Okay.

If he's a mechanic, he can win the trades. I don't have another option for you if you stay there. I do agree. I just want to give rid of this. If he can turn a wrench, he can do. HVAC. He can do electrical. He can do plumbing. I'm telling you he can learn all of it. The trades are exploding and you simply need to change zip codes in order to change your income. It's that simple. I'd go get a decent cert in a heartbeat and be in a major metro area and buy an airline ticket and come

home and see Grandma ever so often. Come on. I mean, I can keep going welding. I mean, a roofer. $160,000 a year. It's unbelievable the money people are making. Thank you. By the way. It makes some of these lawyers look bad. I mean, you know the joke about the plumber and the lawyer, right? I'd like to hear it, actually. Lawyer called a plumber, and he came in, and in 30 seconds, he fixed the sink,

and he said, that's $350. And he goes, well, that's like $2,000 an hour. He goes, I don't make that. I'm a lawyer. He goes, I didn't either when I was a lawyer. Yeah, Mike Roe would love that. That's great. You know, in all honesty, Dave, you talk, let's just, I'm just throwing this out there

because I think this affects our larger audience when you start getting outside of ways a second. Dave just told us to move. All right, if you go from Maine, and we get real crazy, and we go to the nearest big metropolitan area in the northeast, Boston, this is one of the wealthiest cities in the United States.

They need tradesmen. And to Dave's point, if you're willing to go to the big city, in surrounding areas, by the way, it doesn't have to be in Boston proper. Make big bucks come back and see the family. It's that simple. Look it up.

What a tradesman would make in Boston. What a car mechanic working and a Chevy dealership makes. It's a lot more than you're making, honey. They're not on welfare, I promise. So, yeah, you guys have got to make some changes in order for changes to happen. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you expect a different result. I don't know if there is a way for him to maximize his income in your area, but I think you know, and I think you know there's not,

because I don't think your man's lazy. That's not what I said. I don't think he's got an opportunity in his field. That's why I asked her the question, by the way, if you see people leaving, why are they leaving? You know? And sadly, I mean, it's happening to small town USA everywhere. It is. But it is the reality of economics.

It's just, yes. And when there is a lack of opportunity, people move. John Grisham had an old book out years ago. You know, he's a fiction writer. It's a fiction book called Painted House. but he talks about, he was about a cotton, a kid growing up in Arkansas cotton fields and dirt poor, you know, white trash, and grew up, and he talks about the cousin that moved away to Detroit, this is in the 1940s in the Great Depression, in the Dust Bowl, right?

And the cousin that moved away to Detroit, and he came back, we're in a fancy suit, driving a brand new car, working in the car factory, and had married a Yankee wife. You know, and that's what they talk about when he's coming back. But that was a classic example of what you call a diaspora, which is where people move due to war or due to weather. Katrina caused Cajun restaurants to be all over America because people left New Orleans and never went back. Because everything was torn down, the levees broke, the whole place was flooded, it was a mess, and they just said, screw it, I'm out of here. And consequently, there's Cajuns all over America that weren't planning to be. And, you know, you've got economics, you've got weather, you've got, you've got, um,

All kinds of other issues that drive it, but sometimes it's just opportunity. Well, let's not forget, Dave. I'm so glad you took us there. Let's not forget the origins of this great nation, is it really begin to really explode after colonial times. We're talking about the Statue of Liberty. You're talking about the Irish Scots, the Italians of a New York is the melting pot that it is because people from across the globe said we're going to leave family and thousands of years. of tradition to go have an opportunity.

So we're asking somebody to leave rural Maine. Let's not forget how America gets where we are today. It was because people left their homeland. We're talking countries that have been around forever and said, I'm going for opportunity. And it was desperate. You're getting on a ship and going across the Atlantic. I mean, that's – Yeah, and you may or may not make it.

Yeah. A hundred percent. Absolutely. That's just real stuff, y'all. It's not just picking on Alicia and her husband. but there's just something to talk about. It kind of comes back to this thing, too. I can't afford a house.

Well, where do you live? I live in San Francisco. Well, of course you can't afford a house. I have to be in the top 1% of income earners to buy a house in San Francisco right now. I live in downtown Manhattan and New York. Right. It's not unless you make 200 grand, you don't. You know, you're going to have to be in Abilene, Texas, honey.

Hello. And, you know, you're going to go somewhere where you can afford to live. And so if you, you know, if you're going to buy a home, You may want to think about a different location for some of you because the economics don't fit. And you can't just decide, well, I'm in California and they don't really do math here. I know they don't do math, but that doesn't mean math doesn't work. The Ramsey Show Question of the Day is brought to you by why refi if you've been turned down by other lenders because your private student loans are in

default well why refi is for you they help borrowers restart with dignity in a clear direction to get out check out yrefi.com slash ramsi that's the letter y r e f y dot com slash ramsi not in all states today's question comes from victoria in new hampshire my father-in-law started a business many years ago but hasn't been actively managing it so my husband and i have been running it. The three of us are on the company payroll along with our employees. My father-in-law feels the profit should belong to him because he started the business. We want to include him, but we also need to make wise financial decisions about the money that we, not him, have worked hard to earn and manage. How can we honor our parents while still being responsible stewards of the

business? We now run full time. I had dinner just the other night with our mutual dear friend, Henry Cloud, and I can just see boundaries flashing light here. I understand the frustration that we can read into this email. But the reality is the father-in-law did in fact start the business and still owns it. You don't own it. So we don't have clear boundaries, professional boundaries as to who does what, why they do it, how they get paid. It's just kind of you guys have all just been going about your business and now there's tension because there isn't clearly defined lines and without that if Dave and I were on some of those one of those goofy judge shows I'd be going look I get your frustration but this isn't your business so you're very little

that you can do here until we sit down with father-in-law and ask for some type of restructuring at which point he gets to decide what he's going to do with his business yeah look um we don't want to run it anymore and not be the owners that's what you're actually saying and so we did not we took it over just as a favor to you and we've run it for a while but we need to go along with our lives and our career and so we're going to move on unless we can work something out to where we become the owners of this but we're not going to continue to work here as employees because that's what you are you're not due any of the profits Victoria you're wrong it's right you're wrong you don't own it you work

for someone else that owns the property owns the business and you should have changed that when you walked in the door so now you've got to go back and unspill the milk which is very difficult but so the conversation is hey dad we came in we stepped up we helped you out for a while but that's not working for us long term because you keep all the profits and we do all the work and so we either wanted to work out something where over the next little while we become the owners through some process that you feel good about and that we feel good about or we're going to have to look for a different career and you're going to have to look for a different manager for your business and either one of those is okay but you guys went in

here um and sat on your assumptions and your assumptions were that you were going to be the owner and no one said out loud that you were or weren't and so you weren't because the title to the business is still in his name so he is due 100% of the problem profits. He owns the business. You don't own it. And you have to change that. Or if you don't change it and don't like the arrangement, you need to move on. Either one of those is fine. And that's not dishonoring or honoring to your parents. You use stewardship and honor parents. So I'm sensing a hyper-Christian take on this stuff. And it's not dishonoring to parents to have boundaries. It's not dishonoring to someone to say, I don't want to work here.

When someone leaves Ramsey, it's not dishonoring to me unless they intentionally dishonor me. But, I mean, just the fact that they don't want to work here anymore doesn't mean that I'm a awful person or that I'm automatically that they think I'm an awful person. A lot of times they have something else they want to do this different. That's all. And so that's not dishonoring in any way. You know, there's something there you've just pulled out that class. How can we honor our parents while still being responsible stewards? Here's the thing.

That is a bit of a self-righteous tone that you can clearly see there. And here's the lesson from this. Unclear expectations lead to bad relations, right? A hundred percent of anger. Every time because you had this expectation. Your father-in-law had a very different expectation. Nobody got clear about it, at least to write it down and get some concrete steps moving forward. Dave, you've nailed it here.

And so you get angry when you expect something you didn't get. That's it. Yeah, like when you try to chip shot that shot up. on to the green the other day. And you missed, yeah, that's anger right there. I saw that. That's the frustration. You expected that to work. Yeah, I saw. And it didn't work. Yeah, and I chili dipped it and it went six yards. And it's supposed to be a 35-yard shot. That is, that is my expectations. Number one, being unrealistic. Let's start, since we're going to teach out of this, I don't play golf enough to be good enough to expect it. I was just a new, no, but it's

an underhand pitch. Let's just mix metaphors. An underhand pitch. But yeah. So, all right. Yeah, too fun so that's it yeah the secret to happiness is lowered expectations and clear ones realistic and clear that would be your two attributes leases Cleveland hey Lisa what's up hi how you doing better than I deserve how can we help thank you for taking my call I just started listening to you this year and I'm undertaking student loans for the first time Good for you. You mean you're getting ready to pay them or you're taking them out? Yeah, I'm getting ready to pay them. Oh, good. I'm glad. Starting in January. So I have a plan all laid out, but I just need a little bit of advice.

Okay. First of all, financial, and then the second of all, the more spiritual, so it might be a first on this show. So my first question, financing student loans, should I refinance them or should I just start paying them off starting in January? It's 6.25 for both of them. I have a subsidized loan at $29,407.48. You don't refinance student loans unless you get a better interest rate. Right. I want a lower one.

And if you get a lower one, you get $1,47. time, one time you can refinance student loans. And so you've got to feel really good about the new interest rate that you're going to get. It's going to be way lower, and you don't think interest rates are going down, which they might be, by the way. So I would not refinance right now. I might wait until the end of the year.

On government insured, we're talking about federally insured student loans, right? Right. Yeah. Okay. So wait a little towards the end of the year, and let's see if rates come on down a little more. So if you've got a six and you can get a four and a half, yeah. Now, let's get a better rate. Rate's not going to save you.

What's your balances? So for the subsidized one is $29,000 and some change, and for the unsuspidized one is $50,000, some change. But the total of $79,000 is some change. So 1% of $79,000 is $700. So if you save 1% by refinancing, you save $700. That doesn't go a long way toward paying off $79,000. So the secret sauce is not a lower interest rate to getting out of debt.

The secret sauce is you dumping tons of money on these things and getting rid of them fast. Right. And that's my goal. So a little bit of backstory. I'm a traveling, CNN, certified nursing assistant. Good. We don't get paid like the nurses do, but, you know, that's why I started. You have more than staying at home.

Yes, yes, absolutely, yes. So I've been traveling for eight years. I got these student loans back in my 20s. I'm much older now, tag on about 15 years. And three things really jarred me into my, you mean, you've got to do it. You got to do it. So I ended up getting a couple of travel contracts in New York, and I get one that, you know, pays very well through a hospital nursing home.

And I, with, with, over time, I take home roughly, if I get 16 hours a week, I take home about $8,000-something. Wow, that's awesome. Live on nothing, kiddo, and dump it on these student loans and clean it up. They've been following you around for too long. They're not a pet. Let's evict them. Sally Mae is an ugly woman, throw her in the street. Everyone needs insurance, but it can be hard trying to find pros who aren't looking to make a buck and agents who really know their stuff.

Ramsey trusted insurance pros are vetted and coached to make sure they're market experts who have your best interest at heart. They're independent agents. They don't work for one company. They work for you and search several companies. go to ramsysolutions.com slash coverage to find the type of insurance you're looking for and to connect with a ramsay trusted agent wilson is in knoxville hi wilson how are you hey good afternoon dude i'm doing i'm doing all right i uh reaching out to you uh i've watched a lot of the episodes online um you get a little back sword my uh father passed away in july

I'm sorry. And, um, thank you. Um, he, uh, he divided his estate with, uh, me and my two sisters. And I had just bought a house in July and maybe two weeks into having the house, dad, daddy passed away. Um, so, uh, my question to you is, uh, it's kind of a two part. Number one, um, I don't want to get rid of my father's house because my two sisters didn't grow up. there. I grew up there. And, you know, that was the house from all my childhood memories. You know, it's a real sentimental piece to me. My two sisters, however, do want to just sell off the,

sell off everything. It's kind of a big lot, too. Along with dad's house, there's a house next door that would be my grandma's old house or selling that. And then it's, I guess maybe in total. five, six acres with a working farm, a barn, a detached garage. So it's a big chunk of land. So I guess, first off, my question is, what would you do if you were in my position on that? Well, your dad's will dictates that everything be split three ways, and generally that means the assets will be sold off. so that was pretty much your father's intent

okay and so I think your sisters are going along with that now what is the house that you grew up in what's it worth we haven't oh about give me a number we'll say

maybe 600,000 okay what's the grandma's house and barn and so forthworth uh grandma's house I would say we'll say 200 just for the house and then if you add on the land barn all that you might be working out maybe four or fifty five okay so this is a million dollars worth of property and did your dad have other assets substantial assets uh not no nothing that would

really stick out on that no sir okay so there's not like two million dollars an ex on stock or something. No, no, sir. Because we could give your sisters that, and you took the land. I mean, you could divvy it up three ways, and you end up with it. But basically, most of the larger portion of almost all of his estate is these two pieces of property, a million dollars worth, right? Yes, sir.

Okay. Okay. So, and what is your personal home worth, Wilson? Well, we'll say right at 300,000. Okay. And what do you make, sir? I would say about 5,500 a month. My year to date right now is, I think I'm right at 70,000.

Yeah. Okay. So the math, the math says this. Yes, sir. That you lost your dad, and it breaks your heart. Yeah. And with that, you're not in a position to buy your childhood home. And so it's going to be someone else's home now.

Yeah. And you're going to get your memories and your nostalgia from something other than the family home place. Yeah. So my grandmother grew up in a home that was her parents. beforehand. My dad grew up in that home. And when my grandmother and grandfather passed away, none of the three brothers and sisters, my dad, aunt, and uncle had any need of that home in several acres, a beautiful old place. And they sold it. And I was, as one of the grandkids, I was kind of sad. Yeah. But it also was a very reasonable thing to do for an adult because

you go, I mean, what am I going to do? Move to another town in this old. house, old country house, just because it's sentimental? No, I'm not. And it doesn't make sense. And so it needs to be sold and it needs to be divvied up. But there's a sadness that goes with that, and you've got that sadness combined with the sadness of losing your dad this year. And so it's kind of a, it's kind of the year of heartbreak for you, and I'm sorry. Um, I guess my, leading to the other, uh, question I had, um, once, I guess all, Everything's all sold, and, you know, say I get my portion and whatever check cut today. Well, in your opinion, what will be a good investment opportunity for me?

Do you have a mortgage on your home, sir? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, I'd pay it off. Okay. You have any other debt? All right. No. My personal truck, I paid that off last year.

and, you know, my fiancé, she would already get the wedding paid for everything coming up in May. And let me encourage, oh, congratulations on that, by the, that's good news. So a new fresh start and everything. And let me encourage you this. I don't think your sisters are bad people. I don't want you to have ill will towards them because they're just doing what your dad said to do. Yeah. it's not you know none of y'all are going to live in that house you can't afford to and so they're liquidating it and splitting it three ways and that's that's what he that's how he had set up his life and so they're not they're not doing anything wrong sir so the last thing i want you to lose your dad lose the house and then lose relationship with your sisters too yeah wilson i'm just sitting here listening i want you to reframe this your dad in his generosity is essentially paying for your first home for you to get started

started in your new life with your new wife. This is a blessing. Huge. I think that's truly what you need to do is go, man, my dad, he left me and my sisters with enough for me to start my life, debt free essentially. Wow. That's a big deal. And you can become very, very wealthy as a result of that.

Your fiancé's income combined with yours and no house payment and no payments. I mean, you're going to be making $100,000 or $1,000 a year between the two of you or more, and you're young and yeah but also it's okay to just say out loud that this hurts and it's sad and I don't I don't like it but I do like the future that he gave you so I'm going to go with that that's a good reframe can I like that and you know you got this barn and all this you know before you sell it is there something nostalgic from the house or the barn that you take your sisters and I'd like to take this and there you can take something something with you. Sure. You know, and honestly, truthfully, if you're going to have something

nostalgic, it ought to be a little smaller. Yeah, it's exactly right. I was thinking of a cool sign in the barn. I got my grandma's Bible. I don't have her house. Okay. I would, that's it easier to carry around. Yeah, it's true. So, yeah, and I got my grandpa's gun, and that's easier to carry around, right? And so, which is kind of how we did things. She had the Bible, he had the gun. But the that's uh yeah wow and so um yeah look for nostalgic things like that because memories are not in real estate dirt or bricks and mortar and real estate can trap you with emotions it's family dirt that's generationally been there i've seen some of the worst decisions in my life made watch people make some of the worst decisions in the name of the emotions of generational family dirt and man you can

just get trapped in the emotions of that when the old man that bought it originally would have never wanted that right you know now you know the great grandpa in this case or whatever or my great great grandpa yeah would have not wanted us to do something stupid with that piece of ground i was talking about a minute ago yeah and in the name of family dirt because he was just something he bought you know it wasn't family dirt before he bought it so somebody's now somebody else's family dirt so let's just um there we go hey wilson there's a lot of good can come from this you and your sisters can be closer, you get a good fresh start, and it's okay to say that I'm sad about it.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fair Wins Credit Union Studio. Ken Coleman Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author, and host of front row seat, the Ramsey Network's runaway hit. He's my co-host. I'm Dave Ramsey. The phone number here is Triple-8, 824. 5-2-2-25. Merry Christmas, America.

We're glad you're here. Ryan is with us in Salt Lake City. Hey, Ryan, what's up in your world? Hi, Dave. Hi, Ken. Thanks for taking my call. My wife and I are in Baby Step 7, with a net worth of about $1.6 million. I'm calling because I have a plan

to leave my corporate job for my side hustle, and I kind of need a sanity check. I just want to know if I'm being a fool to trade security for independence. or, you know, or is this exactly what Baby Step 7 is for? Well, give us the numbers. I love this question. Tell us what your income is and your corporate job.

Okay, so I make close to $200,000 a year right now, and the side hustle, this is not great. Consistently, it's about $2,000 a month that I bring in net, and that has been over the course of two years, a consistent $1,000 that we can count on. What is it? So it's just buying and selling. abandoned storage units. I tried the first one as kind of a hobby, and now my wife calls this my hobby-jobby. And I buy five or six a year, so it's really not a lot, and I've just done this in my spare time. Yeah, this is just above a hobby. She's right. Right. So how old are you? I'm 44. What old is she? She's 39. What does she make? So up until about four months ago,

she only had part-time jobs and worked in the home. But starting in September, she got a full-time job as a teacher, her dream job that she's always wanted to do. And now she's making about $4,000 a month net. So she's meting $4,000. And what do you do at your corporate job? What's your career? So I'm a software developer.

Okay. The answer is no. Because we always answer, what would we do if we were in your shoes? And would I walk away from a $200,000 gig for a $24,000 hobby? Not at $44. No. You still got a lot of earning potential. I think there's still a transition.

I think you need a better side hustle. And let me just tell you my rule of thumb on when do we leave a full-time job to a side hustle, just so that you have some context, because you're not there. But I would want a minimum of six to 12 months of my income. And in your case, that's $200,000. I would want six to 12 months of that in the retained earnings, is what we call it here, in the company, the side hustle's bank account, before I even thought about moving out. But in your case, I don't even think that's the right, because this is hard to scale.

It's a hard to scale business. If you had a side hustle that was 150, you know, you could make that jump. Yeah, that's fair. But here's the thing. Going from, you said software engineer, is that what you said? Yes, sir. From software engineer to junk dealers, probably not my plan. I understand that.

There's probably a middle ground here. I liked what you said from corporate world to independence. Let's talk about that. And how can we maybe be a software engineer freelance, start doing some consulting contracts, and you decide who and when you want to work for, and all that kind of stuff. And maybe you make $2.50 doing that. I don't know. You don't necessarily have to go down.

But you've got your independence and you can set your hours and do some of that stuff. Sounds like you've got a pitch. I want to hear this out a little bit more because I do have a follow-up question. Go ahead. I know you want to say something. If I could push back just a little bit, about two years ago, I was ready to just jump and leave the corporate world. I was burnt out and I still am and I felt like I could barely hold on. I found something that I could gravitate towards

and something that I loved and was passionate about and something that I felt really proud that I had built and bootstrapped from a $500 initial investment to something that consistently makes $2,000 a month in cash. And we also planned two years ago, I knew I couldn't jump then. It would be ridiculous to try and say that I can replace a $200,000 a year income ever.

But that's not what I want. I don't want to pile up money in a bank account just to have $10 million when I retire if I'm not happy. And my soul felt like it had been sucked out of my body. Totally get it. Let me ask you a quick question on that. What would you say is the greatest source of your burnout? Is it people? Is it the environment?

Is it the workload? Those are usually the big three. What is it for you? Yeah. I would say it's the corporate nonsense and the lack of independence. That there's just so much in my mind. One of those means you have to make less to be happy. I know, but does it mean that I need to make more or the same to be happy if I can be content?

No, but to automatically assume less equals happy is a, that's a, that's a, not a proper framework. Yeah, I understand. All right. Let me ask you another question. I'm very happy and I'm like a lot more. I understand. Yeah, I'm sure. What has to happen, Ryan?

You've done this long enough to know something about this business. If you gave it 40 hours a week, what? you anticipate the income becoming? I thought about this a lot. I know. And I've had, so here's my plan. So the best month that I've had was $6,000 in net profit. And that was from buying multiple lockers instead of having to space them out so much

because I had more spare time to do it. I have a sabbatical coming up because I do have a great corporate job. It's very cushy. You know, I have a sabbatical that comes up for having worked at the same company for 15 years. And I have six weeks off in March. I want to take that six weeks, and I want to bust my butt and put my nose to the grindstone and see what I can do putting 40 hours, 50, 60 hours a week. What do you think you can do?

What do you think you can do? I think that I could average 6,000 a month, and I could have breakout months of 10. Okay, so I'm going to tell you something. after hearing your cause of burnout and I'm on your team but I'm going to give you some tough love that is a mindset issue that you actually can control I didn't hear toxic environment I didn't hear a jerk boss I heard cushy job so let me tell you what's going on you can control your desire and your desire is to be independent I love it but I'm going to tell you this right now. I love the six

week sabbatical. Do not quit your job right now. This is the advice I would give to myself. Let's prove out this hypothesis in the six weeks, but let's not immediately quit if that goes well. And I think you need to change your mindset starting today that yes, what's really going

on in this burnout is I'm spending all my time thinking about my desired future and I'm not willing to be patient to get to that desired future in a much better way. And I think you're just so ready to leave and be your own guy

that you're missing what is a phenomenal platform by which to step into that desired future. I think you can step into it too soon and talk yourself into making less money because I just want to be happy. I think you need to be wise. I think more wisdom, less happy is the mindset right now. I'm a little bit afraid.

No, I'm a lot afraid that you've confused the freedom that you feel doing this business with an actual passion for the business. You're just buying us on junk. I mean, it's okay, but it's not exactly like you're changing the world or there's passion. Where's the passion comes? The passion comes from your independent and you're controlling your own destiny. And that's where you're getting your passion from. It's not the actual actions.

And I think you can do that in a way that is better for your family at 44 years old than $24,000 a year. If you feel like you're always starting from scratch with your money. Well, trust me, you're not alone. It's not because you aren't disciplined. It's because you're emotionally overwhelmed. I'll start again next month. Now, that's not managing your money. It's emotional survival mode.

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Jade and her husband paid off $460,000 worth of debt. Yeah, they know the emotions, and she can walk you through, help you navigate this. Pre-order today at ramsysolutions.com slash store, or if you're watching on YouTube or podcast, click the link. in the description. Cindy's in Dallas. Hi, Cindy. How are you?

I'm good. How are you? Thank you. Sure. What's up? So I have two paid off vehicles. Oh, 6, Honda Odyssey, and a 2010 Chevy Traverse.

But I keep having so many repairs. I don't make a lot each month. I'm a single parent. Why do you have two cars? Well, they each keep breaking. down. You have a spare? Yeah.

You have a teenager? No. Okay. It's me and kids. How old are the kids? They're all ten and under, three of them. So you don't really need two cars? My problem is whenever one breaks down, I use the other, but they both have so many.

What if you sold them both and piled the money together and got a good car? I don't know that anyone would give me a whole lot for both. I don't want to end up back where I'm at. Like, one needs a timing chain, and the other, it's been leaking oil. I just feel like I don't have enough to get a decent car that's not going to have the same problem. How do you know? I've asked around for people to buy the worst car. Who'd you ask?

I've asked two different mechanics, a dealer. You ask a mechanic to buy your car. Well, he sells these cars. I bet he does, which means he buys yours cheap and resells it for a profit. Bad information. Okay, I want you to take these cars and look them up on Kelly Blue Book, KBB.com, private sale. I think you have a $3,000 car and a $5,000 car. That's what I think.

And I think that's $8,000, and then you go get an $8,000 car. Do you have any money at all? I have some, but I've put thousands into... How much do you have in money? I have about $2,000. Okay. All right. And so if you got $8,000 of these two cars and put your last $2,000 with it,

you could buy a $10,000 car. Do you have any family in the area? Some. What? I have some. What's some? Who? My parents.

Okay. You say that with great enthusiasm. How old are you? I'm 34. Okay. How long have you been by yourself, kid? Three years. Is there a large church, what we call megachurch, or a good-sized church, or multiple good-sized church?

churches in your area? Sure. She's in Dallas. Yeah, there's a large church. Okay, here's where I want you to do, because you're a single mom, and I'm not saying these churches all have it, but I know several churches in our area have a program where they help single moms that have automobile issues. So that could be a free mechanic to get this timing belt change to then be able to sell as Dave has been. My point is, I want you to know that there is some real possibilities for help, but you've got to know that as a single mom, there are people out there that want to help you with the car. They may give you, there's a large church that Dave and I go to,

we give cars away to single moms. You've got to be okay asking for help here because it feels like if we can fix this car situation, this is going to take a huge lit of stress off of you. Am I right? Yeah, it would be a lot better. Are you willing to show up and say I need help? I've applied to one of their programs.

I didn't hear back from that one. I'm sorry about that, but I would show up. Call them again. Prove to them that you aren't a deadbeat, which you're not, and that you're taking care of, let them know who you are. You applied to a program with a church? Yes. Yeah, usually there's some type of...

And they didn't call back? I mean, they have something where you have to call on at 6 in the morning, and you have to go through an application for them to pick one family. Let's go. You're in a desperate situation. Let's get up at 5 a.m. for that. I have applied to increase my VA disability. I'm hoping that that will...

You completely sidestepped the suggestion. Yes. You need to go do what Ken's telling you to do. And then when you get ready to sell these two cars, I would ask that you get your brother or your dad or one of the gentlemen from a local church to go with you in the sale and in the repurch. to help you select something in the repurchase.

Not that you're not able to, but you want another set of eyes looking at the mechanical ability so you don't buy another problem. Okay? Yes. And you might even get it inspected before you buy it. So if you could find a $10,000 car

from a grandmother that is selling it on a garage sale, and you probably could get a very good car for that kind of money right now, and you probably can put that money together from these two vehicles. You may have to go through that church program at 5 o'clock in the morning that Ken's talking about get that timing belt changed and cause all this to happen. But what you're doing has to change because what you're doing is not working. Would you agree with that?

Yes, it's impossible to save and keep to running. And you're getting tired and you're by yourself and you're getting the crud beat out of you by this situation. I can feel the fatigue in your voice. I'm sorry. but you're tough you are a tough lady you're a warrior princess and you can fight through this but you're going to have to start making some big moves to get these these cars need to be gone a spare because both of them suck is not a plan yeah i've been trying to follow what you said about buying in cash and i bought the van in june for $675 and i knew it needed to

some repairs, but it just keeps needing repairs. Well, we've never told anybody to buy a $675 a van. I have, but I didn't tell her that, but yeah. Have you really? We want to, I guess a hooped he is in that range. Yeah, no, listen, keep your head up. Listen, get your head up. Here's what I need you to know.

That there are people who are willing to help you. And you've got to swallow. I'm not saying you're prideful at all, but we all have it. I think you've got to show up and say, will you help me? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we've got some pretty good connections there. I agree. I'm not going to name their names on the air, but we'll make some calls for you there and see if we can help you get tied into a good local church and see if they can walk you through some help, okay? Because you need some help. And I'm going to ask you to ask your dad, it sounds like that's not a comfortable relationship, but to ask him to help you select the next thing

and get rid of these two so that you can get into a decent car. And maybe I'm wrong. If you bought it for 675, you might not have $8,000 worth of vehicles. I'm probably wrong on my math. But, yeah, the thing is we've got to get the two of these put together with a little money and some wisdom and get you into something where cars are not consuming your life anymore, hon. So you hang on. Christian's going to pick up, and he'll get you with our church guys.

We have a department that works with churches. Christian, you can put her with Josh and he'll help her find somebody that's got a car program there in Dallas. There's a bunch of them that do, I'm sure. I don't want to name any of them. I know a bunch of them, but I don't want to name them on the air and put them on the spot. But we'll take care of her. Make sure she's okay.

Taylor is with us in Houston, Texas. Thank you. Hey, Dave, I'm doing great. How are you, sir? Better than I deserve. I see on my screen, you're a baby steps millionaire. Congratulations. Thank you very much. So, how much is your net worth, sir? 1.1 million. Very cool. How old are you?

32. Oh, wow. Young one. Good for you. And what's the breakdown of your 1.1 million? How's it invested? Well, it's pretty simple, Dave. I've got 570,000 in my 401k. I've got 125,000 in my Ross IRA, $170,000 in taxable. My home's worth about $250,000, and I've got about $20,000 in cash. Good for you. Well done. Well done. And what do you do for a living? I'm a union electrician. Ah, very good. Good for you. What's your wife do? I'm single. I'm not married. Oh, okay. And you did all this by 32. Did you inherit anything? No, sir. Not a penny.

Zero inheritance. So you're an electrician at 32 years old, and you've got a $1.1 million net worth. I think that kind of rests our case on the trades, doesn't it? Yes, sir. How old were you when you started? 20. Okay, so 12 years. Yes, sir.

You paid off the house and stacked the 401K. Yes, sir. I paid off my house about three months ago, actually. Wow, good for you. How does that feel, man? Did you ever think we started as an electrician at 20 years? old that you were going to be a millionaire at 32? No, I definitely didn't think that it was going to be possible.

It was always a dream, but I started listening to you about 10 years ago and set myself the goal to achieve, you know, becoming a millionaire and being able to be on your radio show, and here we are. Yeah, look at that, man. Congratulations. Thank you. So you have a, what did you do, an apprenticeship, or did you get some kind of a certification degree or what?

Uh, so I actually got a scholarship out of high school from a, uh, a local plant that I really wanted to work at. And, uh, they put me through a two-year associate's degree program. Um, and after I've finished that, I was lucky to get hired on there. And, um, I did go through a three-year apprenticeship program with them. And then, uh, so, and ever, ever since then, it's just been, uh, just staying steady and being consistent. So what was your, starting income when you started all that uh my first year i've been very blessed my first year was 95 000 okay and what do you make now um about 200 210 okay as an electrician oh i love this call this makes me so happy incredible incredible how's it feel to be at this point at 32 years old

does it ever look at that and go wow well i do it um it doesn't really feel any different as far as how I've always felt, but it is a nice milestone to reach, and I just look forward to just continue and to save and invest and see what other goals I can reach. You think it can still be done if somebody's listening right now in their 20, and they started an apprenticeship program, an associate's degree, and move out in electrician? Do you think that can still be done in America? Absolutely.

A hundred percent. what'd you pay for your house uh 242 okay in houston texas yes sir i'm i'm about an hour outside of houston i'm in more of a rural area but uh what's the area yes sir uh bay city okay yeah i know bay city all right do you have any and so does 242 buy a pretty decent house in bay city texas right now uh yes sir i would say so it's a three bed two bath two thousand square feet um and a nice nice neighborhood, quiet, established neighborhood. So I think that addresses the affordability concerns we hear. Yes, sir.

Definitely. Question, do you have plans or have you allowed yourself to wonder about owning your own business as an electrician? Or what do you think about professionally now that you've been in this field for, let's call it, 10, 12 years? I have thought about it. I thought about what other opportunities I could get into as far as additional income streams. What have you identified? Not saying you're going to do it, but what have you identified? Because I want our audience to hear what these options might be.

Well, one of them is I've kind of always been interested in owning maybe an RV park. We're kind of in a big industrial area where I'm at. There's a lot of plants and a lot of industry around. And it seems like the RV parks are always full, just constant. and constant, you know, visitors and contractors, workers coming through. So that was always something that I've been interested in. And that cash position and no debt sets you up to be able to do that. All right, and I have another question, for parents that are listening right now

and they've got a kid who is either said something about it, or maybe they wonder if their kid is a college kid. And maybe they're feeling cultural pressure about that. If their kid's handy, a little bit leans towards some of the skill sets that could work in a trade, that they're worried about the perception of that, not going to a four-year school. What would you say to those parents? I would say there's some excellent opportunities in the trades. It's a very respected career in the area.

You have a skill set that you can keep for life. I mean, you can take the skills you learn in the trades, and you can take them anywhere. And we need a lot of trades people in this country. And there's just some great opportunities for earning. and for stability in those careers. Yeah. Well, Taylor, we're proud of you, man.

Congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Thank you very much. Excellent work, man. Baby Steps Millionaires, listening to us at 20 years old, becomes electrician, $1.1 million net worth, $250,000 paid for home. That's 2,000 square feet, three bedrooms in the Houston, Texas area. And $625,000 in retirement accounts, Dave, at $30,000.

Yeah. That's just going to turn into millions. It's going to be, you know, he's going to have $40 or $50 million if he doesn't watch what he's doing. Yeah. It's going to get out of control. That's pretty wild. That's just bizarre. 32 freaking years old. Starting out making 95 after apprenticeship and moves into $200,000 a year.

So there's your answer. And you know what? They didn't have $350,000 in student loan debt and a parent plus loan. That's what he didn't have. And so, oh, they gave the place he went to work gave the scholarship for him to get an associate's for free. Exactly right. Let's just track this a minute, okay? And this is a different way of thinking about things.

Again, we're not against higher education, but we are both very excited that the trades are exploding in America and made in America starting to be a thing again. And that's a good thing. There's a bazillion of these things. We need to clip this call and send it to our friend Mike Rowe. He'll love this call. I almost said if we fund it to three-way call, Mike, in here, and he would be so excited. He would have been cheering Taylor on.

Here's something, by the way, out of the news. In the next 15 to 20 years, the federal government is predicting that they will have to hire as many as 600,000 electricians. The federal government will? The federal government. To do what? government contracts you know like defense electric chairs for the IRS agents I mean what what are you got I'm just telling you 600 over over oh in contracts subcontract not just

federal employees federal employees to do work on federal buildings federal and I'm just I'm just pointed it out that the need is that big and whether or not they're going to do that or not is not the issue I don't want you to get lost in the massive number there but the idea here is I'm going to get lost in the massive government spending is what I'm getting lost. I know, but the point is, and again, I'm not trying to drive people to federal work, but I'm saying that the need for the tradesmen, and Mike's been saying this, you've been saying, I've been saying this, there is going to be in a massive amount of tradesmen who are retiring, and the need is massive, which means that the pay scale is going to be very, very good. And this young man is an example. Not doing that. 200,000.

He's doing better than most lawyers. Yeah. And no law school loans. Yeah. There's so many jokes there. So many jokes. Lawyer jokes, my favorite.

Yeah. Our scripture of the day, Proverbs 21 and 5, the plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance. I'm going to say that again. The plans of the diligent, by the way, diligence is excellence in the ordinary over time. The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty. Ronald Reagan said the greatest leader is not necessarily the one who does the greatest things. He is the one who gets the people to do the greatest things. Rudy is in Sacramento, California.

Hey, Rudy, what's up in your world? Life is good, and that verse is amazing. I'm going to give you an example of it for my wife and I. We recently moved to the Sacramento area to be near our children and our grandchildren. And so I took a job with a public agency, and we currently have, in our retirement accounts, It's a million $80,000. Wow. And the equity in our home is about maybe $600,000.

Good for you. You know about $300,000. So we've, I've been doing your principles for 25 years, okay? Good for you. And so. Now, you're talking about your retirement accounts from before in your other job, right, that you've rolled. All my other jobs combined, I've rolled them over in IRAs. Good.

Good. I have an S&P 500 index account. Good. So I maxed everything out. We're actually closer to 20% of our investment. Wow. Of our income. So no debt.

just our mortgage. I take cash for cars. I only buy used cars. Excellent. How old are you? 56. Way to go, man. You did good. We've been working our butts off. You know, your wife had I make it, by the way, on a side note, your wife should make a recipe book on beans and rice and rice and beans. There's some good stuff out there. Except that we never really ate it. It's just a metaphor.

I know. I know. I know. So listen, the public agency that I got a job with, they have a retirement plan. I put in 3% goes into a 457B pre-tax. They match it with a 3% match that goes into a 401A with a vesting period of 10 years. I'm not going to be here in 10 years. And then it gets worse. The money goes into a variable annuity. I'm wondering if I had just stick to doing what I've been doing and forget their retirement plan.

What do you think? Well, you're not going to get the match because you're not going to be there. I'm not going to be there. So the only thing you've got is just a $457, which is just deferred comp. That's all right. So it's, you know, you're avoiding taxation for a short period of time is all you're doing. Yeah. Hmm.

I mean, for us, there's $548 a month, whatever it is, each of us. I'm maxing out the IRA at $23,500, and then I have a bunch of money going into the S&T 500 index fund that I have. I can't, you can't put money anywhere else. You know what? That's exactly what I would do, is what you're doing. I'm with you. I would avoid this thing. Because you've laid out, what you've laid out is excellent work on what you're already doing. And, of course, the 600 that you already, you said 600 in retirement now, right? No, I have a million 80,000. Oh, I missed that. I'm sorry. I got it wrong. A million 80. I have about maybe 600,000 in equity. Yeah, that's what it was. That's what it was. Okay. So, so that million, you're 56, when you're 63 will be too many. 63. Yeah, we've been planning for 63 for 28 years. It'll be 2 million, and then when you're 70, it'll be 4 million, and that's if you add

nothing to it all. And the house, I mean, you'll have it paid off in short order. I would be chunking it on the house and in that index fund. Now, here's the comparison on the index fund, because you're at Baby Step 7. You've maxed out any reasonably good retirement. You're avoiding this bad retirement thing, and so that brings up a whole other discussion. You're not at Baby Step 7. step seven. You've got that mortgage left. Okay, I'm going to change it. I'm going to throw it on the mortgage. All extra goes on the mortgage company, and I asked them if I send them $5,200 a month when I have my house paid off, and they said December 12, 2032. I don't care what they said. I'm

throwing it on the mortgage. I want that mortgage gone. The sooner it is gone, the faster this whole thing explodes and the more it's already on a great trajectory and it's going to increase the trajectory now okay having said that and that's really what i would do if i were you let's stop and explain why i said i like the index fund in your situation because here's the thing if you've maxed out all retirement and we're going to set aside the bad one as not even not even there okay but if you're maxing out all roth IRAs and everything it's available to you and you're throwing money at the mortgage If you put money in an annuity, a variable annuity, not the one you're talking about, but just did that, it's going to grow, but it's going to be taxed at ordinary income when you take it out. What you put in an index fund, it's almost, it's a low turnover fund, so there's almost no turnover, so there's almost no taxation on it until you pull it out.

And if you leave it alone one year or longer, you qualify for capital gains, so you're only going to be taxed at 15% rather than at 37%. Yeah, that's what I've been, my CPA told me that too. Yeah, so it's a great, you've got a good CPA. So it's a great, you know, the S&P's a great place to park money because it's a low turnover ratio fund. But I want that house paid off. What did you say you're making household income? I'm at 120. My wife's at 60, so 180.

180. Okay. Yeah. $5,000, $60,000 a year. Yeah. We're trying to get aggressive. We're going back to the beans and rice and rice. I wouldn't go that far back.

There's no reason to go crazy. You're not intense. You're just intentional. And I'm just saying, okay, what am I? I'm going to have a life. And then beyond that, do I put money in additional investments or do I put it on the house? I put it on the house. That's all I'm saying.

Your baby steps four, five, and six. That's right where you are. Four and six because your kids are grown. But, yeah. So, well done, Rudy. Congratulations. Another millionaire we talked to. Yeah.

That became a millionaire because of doing the stuff we teach. Yeah. And again, good, good income, not insane income, you know, just really consistent for a long period of time. It's what the scripture led off to. And he said, I model that and he did. That's exactly right. Diligent prosper. Joe's in Toledo.

Hey, Joe, what's up? Hey, what's going on? Dave, how's it going? Great, man. How can we help? Hey, man, he's got a question. So my wife and I, so we're avid followers of your program. And we just actually diligently paid off about $58K in debt.

We sold our house. We could do that. We rent now. And boy, let me tell you, that was a lot. But we could finally breathe right now. So my wife has a good job. She's a nurse practitioner. She works nine to five home with the boys.

I got four part-time jobs. And I'm only making around $30K. What's your career for you? What are you trying to build a career in? Well, I'm passionate about, like, audio production and stuff like that, but... I don't care what you're passionate about. I ask what you were trying to build a career in. I don't know yet.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Okay. I'm trying to figure that out. You have four sucky part-time jobs. Okay. Yeah. All right, Ken? Yeah, you know, when I meet somebody like you, we have very limited time. So we've got to cut right through here. So I want you to give me the heart answer, not think about this. What would you try if you knew you couldn't fail and you knew you could do something else? And you could make $100,000 a year?

Yeah, just what's at the top of the heart there? What is it? Say it. Songwriter. That's it. Okay. Now, so here's what we know. It's very, very hard to make it as a songwriter. I've got some. several friends that are some of the best songwriters in Nashville. They're amazing. So we got to then step back and go, okay, that's what we would try for couldn't fail, but I love music. There's a theme between the audio engineering, the songwriter. There's a theme there, okay? So again, today's point, we've got to work our way to this ultimate job. But right now, four jobs equaling $30,000 a year, it's not going to cut it. So I'm going to give you my book, The Proximity Principle. That's my gift to you. But you've got to figure out what can I. Finding the work you're wired to do. That's right. We'll give you the assessment as

well. But the proximity principle first is, all right, who do I know in this field, just the music field, that I can sit with and see what a clear path might look like. This is just for the long term, but in the short term, you've got to stop working four jobs and find a job, a job, maybe two, that now we're making 60. Let's make more money in the short term while we figure out what our plan is for the long term. That's the, that's the progression here. So hang on the line. Take the assessment from finding the work you're wired to do. I think it's going to help you out a lot. That puts us our of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the

Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.