The Ramsey Show - App - Renting Isn’t a Long-Term Strategy (Hour 2)

Episode Date: May 9, 2019

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I am Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.

Joe starts off this hour in Philadelphia. Hi, Joe. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. What's up? Not much. I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm currently working a full-time job.

It's a pretty easy job. It's for a local government, but I had this landscape business, which I'm really passionate about that I've been working on the side since I was 16, and I'm just trying to figure out when I should jump over to the landscape business as far as when that good time is. Yeah, when you can do it without damaging your family, meaning you've grown the landscape business to where the jump from the dock to the boat is doable. So what do you make in the landscape business?

Net profit taxable. As far as this year, I'm on track to make about $44,928. Okay. Profit. Is that profit or gross? Gross. Okay. What's the profit?

Okay, so... Profit's what you get to eat with. Yeah. After expenses, I'm on track for about $31,600. Phenomenal. Well done. Yeah. Okay. All my equipment's paid off.

Good. So what do you make at your day job? Before taxes, I make about $43,680. Okay. All right. And after taxes, I'm about $31,000. How used to $70,000 income has your family gotten? Can you make it on $40,000? I'm single.

Oh, okay. Can you make it on $40,000? Well, yeah, I can make it on $40,000. My expenses are little to nothing, and I'm about to complete Baby Step 3 next week. Okay. All right. Well, let's get Baby Step 3 completed for sure. And, you know, you've got to be managing this business very tightly.

But basically, if you don't do any better at all, you take a pay cut from 43 to 32. Well, actually from 70-something. You've been making some bank, right? Right. But I had payments. Yeah. Okay. And they're gone now.

Yeah. So, anyway, if you can afford to live on $40,000, I think you can increase your income by $8,000 pretty safely when you're full-time, don't you? Oh, I agree. Or probably more, but I'm just saying try to be conservative i just don't want you to lose you know to get you know not pay your rent get thrown in the street or something like that because we did this deal but um it sounds like you've gotten rid of the debt you've got your emergency fund in place you've got yourself where you can live on what the landscape business creates you're very close i think you can do it fairly quickly um if you wanted to wait

until next spring uh when everything takes off again and your income shoots back up again then right well yeah but here's the problem i'm running into is i have i have more work in the landscape business than i can physically do in a week working my full-time job already yeah okay so you want to quit you want to quit now i want to quit today if possible okay i don't know why you couldn't you've just got you got to run your budget out and say can i eat on you know 2600 a month because that's what you're working with yeah i mean i, I can definitely do that. I've been on less than that now for a year while I was paying off debt. Are you doing anything during the winter to create income with the landscape business?

I wasn't doing much. I always fell back on my full-time job, but I do work part-time during snow events with other landscapers. Okay, so you're going to get some snow equipment, and that's going to be a big push this winter. You've got to diversify this, and you're going to pay cash for it. Yes, I am. Okay, because here's the thing. If you have zero income in December,

but you've set your budget up to operate on 32, and you spent all your money this summer, this is a squirrel that's going to go to the nest. There's not going to be nuts there. You're going to be hungry. Yeah. Right? So you've got to put some, you know, you've got to prepare for winter.

Your income is going to drop, and you're going to be adding new lines of business. You're going to diversify your offerings, which is very bright to do. And I think you're, yes, I think you quit, but you've got to prepare for winter, and you've got i think you quit but you got to prepare for winter and you got to manage the fact that you have a seasonal income okay if you do that and you live on less than you're bringing in and you can and you commit to doing that then i think you quit today okay now let me add one more thing i I'll throw in one more thing, okay? I really want you to think about how you're going to increase your income by double. Okay. Yep.

I mean, I just shocked it, didn't I? You feel it? Okay. So what's that mean? It means we're going to hire some people. It means we're going to think differently about equipment. You don't have to do it this year, but let's go ahead and go on an adventure here i don't want you to just own your job i want you to own a business right and when you are the sole producer you own your job

so we need someone that is producing more than just us and then you start to own a business that's why i was forcing you to think that way. Man, you're great. You're going to do phenomenal. Way to go, man. Congratulations. Jake is in Vancouver, Washington. Hi, Jake. How are you?

Hey, Dave. I'm good, man. Thanks for taking my call. My pleasure. How can I help? Well, my question was, well, actually, let me give a little back story. Last November, my wife and I bought the house we'd been renting from her parents, and they gave us a crazy good deal on it. They sold it to us for $100,000.

The house was appraised for $280,000. However, being a rental, it's been pretty much neglected for the last 20 years. So we took out $195,000, $50,000 of that $1,000, or $55,000 of that $5,000, 50 of that thousand dollars, 55 of that thousand dollars, 195 paid off our student loans and combined student loans and a credit card debt. So then we were debt free on that aspect. Uh, and then the other $40,000 went onto a roof, a kitchen and, um, you know, remodeled the, uh, living room, dining room area. So my question is to you, uh, what, oh, well, the other thing was we, um, we're on a 30 year, um, 30 year mortgage. And I, and I know that's not a good plan to be on and we definitely want to be on a 15. Um, so my, my, I guess my question is to you, would it be a better

idea to, when we refinance, uh, next year to a 15, uh, we wanted to take out a little bit more money to either a, um, by a little bit more, I mean, $30,000. We want to take out a little bit more money to either A, by a little bit more I mean $30,000. We want to take out $30,000 more to invest in siding windows and a bathroom, or we take that $30,000 and pay off my truck, and then that way our only monthly bill. You called a show where we teach people to stop borrowing money, not keep borrowing money. Fair enough, yeah. borrowing money. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.

So, no. No to both? No to all of that. You need to pay off your truck. No to both? What about refinancing to a 15? No need to. You've got a good interest rate.

Just pay it like it's a 15. It'll pay off in 15. But you don't need to keep cashing out of this thing. You've got a good deal on it. Now you're going to borrow it up to your eyeballs just for siding. Save up and pay for your siding. Get your truck paid off or sell it. No, we're not going to borrow it.

By the way, you didn't pay off your student loan. You moved your student loan onto your home. That was really dumb. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Are high health care costs getting you down? Are you confused trying to navigate your options? Do you wish you could find an affordable, biblical solution to your health care costs? Based on New Testament principles, Christian Health Care Ministries, or CHM, helps Christian families, churches, and ministries join together as the body of Christ

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a bunch of you are already EveryDollar Plus. But, man, it's absolutely amazing. Well, Dave, why do you charge to connect to banks? Because the banks charge us to let you do that, and we have to cover our costs. It's kind of a basic thing. If it was free, I would just give it to you free. I gave you the other thing free. Jeez, man.

I'm telling you, the hate people put out on Twitter is unbelievable. Okay. Anyway, Andre is up. Hey, Andre in San Diego. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

How can I help? Yeah, quick question. More of a strategic question about buying versus renting. So here's the snapshot. My household income is about $120,000. We have no debt, no car payment, no credit card, no student loans. Way to go. Yeah, we have about $200,000 or so in retirement.

And emergency fund is fully funded. And about $30,000 in stock. Way to go. But I live in a part of the country where, you know, a tool shed behind somebody's house is about half a million dollars. You're not exaggerating much but a little bit yeah yeah no but yeah and and i'm the problem is though we don't have any debt or or anything we rent and we don't really own anything that goes up in value um so my question is um i i've been crunching crunching the numbers i don't really see a way where we can buy a home here

and still kind of live below our means. And that's considering a 20% down and a mortgage that doesn't equate to a quarter of our monthly income. So I just need some wisdom here. You actually can. It just might not be where you want to live. San Diego, the average house price this month is $440,000. The average house price nationally is $230,000.

So you're almost double the national average. I was there last week. It's a beautiful town. I just love San Diego. Yeah. But obviously, you're not going to live in La Jolla. I mean, it's just not your future unless your income goes up about 10x. Right.

And I'm in Del Mar, which is just up the road from there. Yeah. It's still not a bad area but uh you know the thing is i long term renting as a way of life is not going to be good for your finances because of what you just described everything around you is going up and you don't own any of it and that's going to eventually so what happens is if you can get into a purchase, even if it's an uncomfortable purchase, you've at least locked in your housing costs, and your housing costs other than insurance and taxes is not going to go up.

Okay? But if you sit there where you are, you can just about every year count on your rent going up for the rest of your life. I mean, so how long have you been living in San Diego? About a year or so before that we're overseas and that's why we never considered purchasing the home understand okay now that's not bad that's not bad at all but I'm what I'm the reason I was asking that is if you've been there a while I would ask you to go back you know if you've been there 10 years okay what was

10 years ago and you'd be going oh wow I wish I could get those well see you're on the other side of that and 10 years from now what do you think it's going to be? You're going to be, oh, wow, I wish I could get what I could get it now. Because rents are going to go up as values go up, period. But if you've bought a house, your payment doesn't go up, again, other than taxes and other than insurance. And so you lock in a fixed price that does not dramatically escalate on your largest purchase. And it's going up in value and turning into an asset.

So owning real estate as a long-term strategy is really vital to building wealth. You really should. In that case, would you be okay with a 30-year mortgage where our monthly payment would be lower, but we try to pay it aggressively as if it were a 15-year mortgage? Well, I don't want to give you a pass on math because you're in California. Math works in California, too. So you do whatever you want to do. Here's what your thing is. All of those are reasons that I just laid out to take the $30,000 in stock out and use that as your down payment,

and you're in really good shape to buy right now, and yet you're being very wise to be very cautious with this discussion. Here's what you want to remember. If you did the 30-year, if you did the 15, whatever, is that when we do a millionaire study, we just finished a big millionaire study, over 10,000 of them, including millionaires in California, we found the average millionaire pays off their house in 10.2 years. And so if yours ends up being 20.2, it's going to slow down your wealth building because when you do get the house paid off, all the house payment now goes to wealth building because when you do get the house paid off all the house payment now goes to wealth building and it escalates it very quickly right so we want that in our formula

that's where my 15 year fourth of my income came from so if you want to cheat and do a 20 you're just you just got to lean in on it you know because you still want to pay off intent but the other thing is... Yeah, because that would almost double our monthly payment, so it becomes a concern then. Yeah, yeah, I understand. No, it does not double your monthly payment to go from 15 to 30. Oh, I mean from what we pay in rent to taking a mortgage. Yeah.

Well, the other thing you're thinking that you're obviously going to have to look at is you're going to consider other areas um you're going to look at you know where you're buying and you may have to buy somewhere else uh but the the last part of the puzzle is the good news is your income generally will go up over time and so again we've got your house payment locked in and so if it's not 25 but it's 28 or 30 or something you, it's going to get down to 25% over time, plus or minus the increases in taxes, which I have to bring up 16 times because this is California. And they know how to tax you people like no other state. Well, other than Connecticut, possibly. But, well, they find a way. They find a way.

So that's what you do. And you got to look at find a way. They find a way. So that's what you do. And you've got to look at it that way. But I don't think you say renting is a long-term strategy. It's not. So you make the decision on where you adjust. You either adjust on where you live or you adjust on some of the other things we're talking about, knowing that you're going to still have that target. Open phones at 888-825-5225 thank you for joining us finn follows me on twitter

when doing the snowball should i skip cards with a zero interest no do i save these for last since they aren't accruing interest no interest is not a factor when you're doing the debt snowball because 90 something percent of the debt snowballs are paid off in under two years. And so you really don't – there's no interest in – you know, you're fooling yourself. The interest you would save by screwing around with the system wouldn't buy you a Big Mac when you actually run the dollars out, the nominal real money out. That's what you got to look at. And so, no, you need to cut up all your credit cards and stop using them forever get your debit cards the debt snowball is a proven

plan millions and millions of people have used it you list your debts regardless of interest rates smallest to largest balance pay minimum payments on everything but the little one and you attack the little one with a vengeance like your hair is on fire. You sell so much stuff the kids think they're next. The dog on eBay and the cat on Craigslist. We're getting out of here, baby. We're done with this. That's how you get out of debt.

You don't need to mess with a proven system. You just need to submit to it. Ouch! He said submit. Yes, he did. You have to submit to things that work when you're doing things that don't work. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Thank you for joining us, America. Did you know that 96% That's a lot.

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Comes out next week, May 13th. You can preorder it still and you get $20 in free bonus items. That's the e-book for the proximity principle and a video lesson. Discover what you were born to do by Ken Coleman. But hurry, the pre-order obviously ends on May 12th since the book lands on May 13th. You can do it online at DaveRamsey.com, at KenColeman.com, or Ramsey Concierge will help you at 888-22-PEACE, 888-227-3223. Ellie's in Baltimore. Hi, Ellie.

How are you? I'm great. How are you, Dave? Better than I deserve. What's up? So my fiance and I have been together 10 years. We have three kids. Wedding date has not been set yet.

We recently finished Financial Peace University. But for the last two months, we've been setting budgets and just can't quite get him to stick to it. No. You mean a guy that won't marry you for 10 years can't stick to a budget? I'm shocked. We have about $40,000 in debt total, $18,000 of which is in my name. It's a student loan. So I guess I'm wondering what my next step is if I want to follow the baby steps and he's not ready yet.

Do I start paying on my snowball first there's so much going on here that i can't line up with that i don't know how i'm going to be able to give you really good advice to be honest with you okay so here's the thing um it is were you married and calling me with the same question, the answer would be, it is almost impossible. I mean, I've seen it a few times, but all of our data says one of the key ingredients to people building wealth is both spouses being on the same page and having a goal and agreeing to sacrifice to hit that goal together. Now, we have lots of disagreements, all of us, about how deep we sacrifice, what we sacrifice on, and that kind of stuff. Okay?

Lots of that kind of happens. But dragging along dead weight and building wealth called a spouse is almost statistically impossible. We almost never find it. Okay? Now, you're not married, so that makes it even weirder. But you've got kids, and y'all are acting like you're married. So I don't know what to tell you. This is weird.

I don't know what the – it's like all kinds of problems here. So, you know, what I would suggest to a married couple would be that they get – if you absolutely cannot get your husband or your wife to get on the same page with you, then it becomes not a money issue or a financial peace follow the system issue. It becomes a we can't get along issue. And that becomes marriage counseling. But you don't really do marriage counseling when you're not married. Right.

So you guys got to decide. I mean, you don't have to paint counseling when you're not married. Right. So you guys got to decide. I mean, you don't have to paint or get off the ladder here. You know, it's time to do something. If I could get my arms around both of you and be Papa Dave, I would just say, get married, get pre-marriage counseling, post-marriage counseling, get married. Let's decide we're going to commit to this thing, this thing called marriage, this thing called life, this thing called three freaking kids. We're going to commit to all of this, and we're going to commit as a part of that to getting our financial act together and, you know, get in some financial coaching

if you can't get it. But it sounds like that you guys have a lot of stuff going on with commitment in your relationship. We can't commit to a future, which is why you can't stick to a budget. The only reason anyone would limit their spending and their joy today is to have more joy tomorrow. But if we're not going to be here tomorrow because we're not committed, then there's no reason to sacrifice for tomorrow. And so that's where all this is in the mix here. So I would say you guys need to sit down and get some good life coaching from someone who can help you on the marriage, pre-marriage, post-marriage issues,

and then I think the budgeting stuff will come together. Because once you've decided, hey, we're doing life together, and you've been acting like it for quite a while, so I'm not saying you're completely uncommitted, but, you know, we've been engaged for a long time, you know, kind of thing. Deal with that stuff, and I think the budget stuff will work itself out. Leslie is with us in Bandera, Texas. Hi, Leslie.

How are you? Hello, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Well, I have access to some money I'm inheriting from my mother. It's about $47,000, plus I'm a teacher, and I will be 59 and a half in June and I'll have access to

a few little 403Bs I contributed to over the years that's about $11,000 so I'll have access to just under $59,000. Do you have any other nest egg? I'm sorry? Do you have any other nest egg? No. Well, just my $1,000 emergency fund. Oh, okay. But that's it. So I have been through FPU. I'm a high school teacher. I teach your foundations to my high school money matters class, and we absolutely love it.

Thank you. And I would like to, all along I thought about when I got my hands on this money, I would pay down on my house. I owe $150,000 on my house. It's worth about $213,000. But in looking at retirement and thinking about real estate, I would like to put, I own five acres out in the country, and I have a piece of section of my property that would be a very nice location for a small little one-bedroom, one-bath cabin that I could bring some rental income in. If I take this $58,000, $59,000, I can pay cash and buy this cabin completely finished out with electricity, septic, a little fenced-in yard, a little driveway, and start earning some rental income right away

that would be anywhere from $750 to $900 a month. I'm just afraid to let go of that money because I've had this plan for so long, but I think this is the smart thing for me to do retirement-wise. I could recover that money in about five and a half years well it's not what we teach as you know we teach you to walk the baby steps and we don't buy investment property for cash and while we still have a home mortgage and so and you know that oh okay yeah and you need your you need your fully funded emergency fund of three to six months of expenses, too. Well, the way I have this figured out, I've got about $59,000 in income.

It's going to cost me about $45,000 for the cabin. That leaves me about $13,000, $6,000 for the cabin. That leaves me about $13,000. $6,000 worth of extras. And that's running the electricity, running the septic. That leaves me about $7,000. And that I would put to my BabySept 3. Yeah. And you're debt-free.

I need about $8,000. You're debt-free other than your house? Yes. Okay. All right. It's not what I would do, but I don't think I'm going to stop you from doing it. You're very, very invested emotionally. I don't think it's going to kill you, but it's not what I would do.

I want your house paid for in retirement. I want you to have a paid-for house in retirement. That's my big goal. And it's going to change everything. And you've got no money other than an emergency fund heading into retirement. Zero money. That's pretty scary. So you're going to have a one-bedroom cabin in the woods, which has very little market.

Very few people that want it. It's going to be an unusual rental. It's not what I would do. You can do it. I'm not going to be mad at you. It's not what I would do. You can do it. I'm not going to be mad at you. It's not what I would do. Welcome back to the Dave Ramsey Show. Joseph is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi, Joseph.

Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. I'm so glad I got a chance to speak with you. However, I'm just scared I'm going to mess up this opportunity to get some advice from you. No, you won't. We never lost a patient. How can I help? Hey, the reason I'm calling, I'm on the other side of financial growth and on the downhill side going down.

And I'd kind of like to get your opinion on making withdrawals from an IRA. You know, the problem is it's going to be taxed, and, you know, I'm now, you know, my situation is I'm getting my Social Security benefits. I'm getting a big chunk of dividends, and therefore, you know, I'm just not, it seems like we're paying a lot of taxes to get the money out of the IRA. Do you need it? No, but should I let it sit there? Sure. Doesn't hurt anything. You have required minimum withdrawals beginning at 70 and? Sure. Doesn't hurt anything. You have required

minimum withdrawals beginning at 70 and a half. You probably know that. I'm 63. Okay, so you got, yeah, but I mean if you don't need the money, just let it sit there and grow. It doesn't hurt anything. Well, you know, I'm kind of, my thoughts was take out as much as I can not to get over

the 12% tax bracket and not bump into 15% dividend bracket. If you need the money. I don't need the money, though. But if it just sits there. If it's, you know, any money you give that you pull out, you're going to give some of it to the government that would have been growing had you left it in there. Okay.

I'm going to use the government's money to grow money always. Well, mine is, you know, hey, does it just, you know, I don't have anyone to give it to. And therefore, should I continue to live frugal? Okay. Not necessarily. I mean, how much money do you have saved? How much is this nest egg?

Okay. I'll throw out there. I maxed out there. Maxed out my 401Ks and IRAs. I've got about $1.2 million in IRA. Way to go. I've got $1 million in a stock brokerage account. About a half a million in a mutual fund account.

And my worst one is I have got a busted nest egg of a bunch of stock that used to be called a widow's and orphan's fund, if you know which one I'm talking about. Okay, because I had about a million in it, but now it's not worth much. Okay. So you've got about $3.5 million, it sounds like. Yeah, and, you know, basically I'm getting about $40 in Social Security benefits. Way to go. Are you married? Yes.

Okay, and you don't have children? No, we don't, but there's a back story to that. Okay, I understand. Anyway, so you don't have an heir other than your wife. And now the shadow that I'm living under is the wife may require intensive care if something should happen to me. So therefore, probably $100,000 a year to help her if I couldn't do it. Gotcha. Okay. Well, the good news is that $3 million will produce $200,000 to $300,000 a year in income perpetually. And so, you know, but I don't know what you call frugally,

but I think the two of you ought to enjoy some of this money. You may want to consider some acts of generosity. I think that would be fun with some of it. It doesn't have to be extravagant in either place, but maybe there's that cruise you've always wanted to be on or those places you've always wanted to visit. Buy yourself a couple first-class tickets. You've got $3.5 million.

Well, now, I think one of your preludes earlier was about, as a matter of fact, sorry, I kind of have trouble concentrating. We, you know, we, as a married couple, we were on the same path all through our life. However, when we got ready to enjoy, you know, there was a drastic change, and we're no longer

able to take those cruises that we were planning on. You know, that's kind of where this money that we were planning on, you know, seeing the world on now, we can't do that. Because of her situation? Yes. Okay.

I'm sorry. Well, whatever it is you can do that allows you to enjoy some of the money with the limitations that she has, then let's try to do that. I think you need to use some of it that way. You don't need to be on beans and rice, that's for sure. You've done a wonderful job taking care of money. And if you don't need money and you can let it sit and grow, that's fine. There's only three things you can do with money. Give it, invest it, which would include leaving it to sit and grow, and enjoy it.

So you need always to be doing all three, generosity, enjoyment, and investing. All three are part of the rhythm of life. And at different stages of life, we lean on one of those more heavily than others, different amounts of wealth. We lean on some of those more heavily than others. But you're in a really good position here to do all of that. And maybe it's just a really fine car that you buy, that you put off and never done, if you're right there in the area. And travel is out of the question.

I don't know exactly what it is she's facing, but don't need to. You guys just enjoy some of it to the extent you can. And I don't take money that I don't need to. You guys just enjoy some of it to the extent you can. And I don't take money that I don't need. I let it sit and grow unless I need it. That is a form of investing. So, hey, thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Renee is in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Hi, Renee. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thank you for taking my call, and I know you're doing better than you deserve. Yes, ma'am. Some things are predictable. How can I help?

Okay, so long story short, I own my own home, but I'm not able to afford the payments on it because I don't have a stable job right now. I'm 41 years old, a single mother of three kids. The job that I did have, we got laid off in February, and during that time, I just started taking all my jobs. What kind of job were you doing? I was a receptionist slash administrative assistant. I don't have administrative assistant skills. I was basically a receptionist, but it was on the job. What were you making?

I made $30,000 per year. My house payment is with everything included is $650. But as of right now, I'm struggling to pay that because I'm just doing anything I can right now to make money, which is like Grubhub, Uber. And my car payment is almost as much as my mortgage. That's what your problem is. You have an income crisis and you have a car payment you almost as much as my mortgage. That's what your problem is. You have an income crisis and you have a car payment you can't afford. Yes.

My car payment is $432 per month. That's absurd. So I would like to get rid of my car, but I'm using my car to make money right now. Well, then let's find a different way to make money, like cleaning houses. Okay. You can make more than Grubhub cleaning houses. How would I go about doing that? Put your name in Craigslist when you get off the phone.

Somebody will call you probably by tonight. And get out and scratch around. Find somebody that you know that's cleaning houses and see if you can get on with them to help them and talk to people in the wealthy end of town that would like to have someone to help them do their cleaning. I'm just making this up. But you have an income crisis,

and you have a car that you couldn't afford even when you had a job. A $400 car payment tells me you got a $15,000 or $20,000 car when you were making $30,000 a year. Mathematical nutto. Doesn't work. So the car's gone, and the career crisis is on full alert. We're going to get a new job. We're going to get different jobs. We're going to work, work, work, work, work.

You're not scared to work. I wasn't saying that. But you've just got to really focus on that part of it. Hold on. I'm going to have Kelly send you a copy of Ken Coleman's new book, The Proximity Principle, to help you land something. Also, download his interview sheets and so forth on KenColeman.com. That puts this hour of The Dave Ramsey Show in the books. This is James Childs, producer of The Dave Ramsey Show.

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