The Ramsey Show - App - Should I Compromise My Morals To Keep a Job? (Hour 1)

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studio, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where America hangs out to have a conversation about life, specifically your money, your work, your relationships, and, you know, who knows? We'll take your questions. It's a free call, 888-825-5225 is the number.

I'm Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, host of The Ken Coleman Show on the Ramsey Network, joined by my colleague John Deloney. He is the host of The Dr. John Deloney Show and also Ramsey Personality and Relationship Guru, mental health, emotional health. We'll talk about it all. I focus on purpose and work, whether that's just, hey, can I need to make more money so I can get a bigger shovel, get out of debt faster? I want to get promoted so that I can do the work that I was born to do.

We're going to cover all that, plus your money questions today. John, good to be with you, sir. You too, man. You ready to roll? Yeah, but I saw on the internets that you got a big announcement you made this week. Yeah, well, no, we haven't. We haven't. You know what?

It was on social, which I don't understand because the social media team said, hey, let's tell people about it. So it's on Instagram. Yeah. But then with Dave and I the other day, it was like, yeah, we'll wait till Monday. So Monday, August the 2nd. Will be the big announcement. Will be the really big announcement.

We have two massive projects that you know I've poured a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into. Yes. And it's very exciting. We've got to wait two more days, three more days. Or you can go to my Instagram account, at Ken Coleman, and we showed it there. So I don't know. You see what I'm saying? They've got a little electrical thing connected to me.

I saw you just get zapped. And if you talk about it too soon, they'll just zap you, and then that's not going to be pretty for anybody. That is a part of this world that, for the person just listening, there's a lot of people that control what we can say and not say. And one of them is, we've got exciting projects, and we'll tell you later. We'll tell you when we're allowed to tell you. That's right. Yeah, but I am excited. But thank you for bringing that up. But yeah, we're really excited, and you're working on a book too now?

Yeah. Come on. You're in the throes. Speaking of blood, sweat, tears. Yeah, there's a lot of tears. Which do you have more of right now? Blood, sweat, or tears? Or is it equally distributed?

It's both. It's just a mess. It's a laundry day after every writing day. Yeah, lots of late nights, man. I'm ready to get this thing off to the editors. Yeah, we got big news, so we'll share that. Very exciting stuff. But, hey, it's all about you this hour.

888-825-5225. We've got a great looking crowd in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions here in Nashville, John. They're fired up. I see some people wearing debt-free shirts. We're probably going to talk to them later. This is a reminder that we are open for business. You can come see us.

We've got free cookies, cold beverages, hot beverages. I should point out they're non-alcoholic uh we don't have you don't got to point that out you can bring your own flask you could yes nobody's gonna nobody's gonna uh check you out on that so there's a young kid over there he looks like he's got a flask too yeah okay well we'll just keep an eye on him during the show that could make it really All right, let's get to the phones, shall we? Let's go to Klamath Falls, Oregon. I hope I said that right. Crystal joins us there. Crystal, how can we help? Hi, John and Ken. I'm elated to talk to you both. Well, we're excited to talk to you. What's up? I actually had a two-part question for you. A little bit more targeted towards Ken. I'm a mom, a foster mom,

a working professional in a great marriage that I've been in for 17 years. I'm nearly debt-free. Thanks. Wow, way to go. But with all of that, I'm also a former foster youth and I'm looking at creating some multifaceted training materials for foster biological and adoptive parents. And I'm in need of a mentor or a guide for this process. I don't have, but not just like any mentor, like somebody who's actually done it for themselves, maybe that has created training materials, written books, et cetera. I know all of the Ramsey personalities have done it, so who do I call? Do I call a pastor, a counselor? Is there a website for Mentors R Us?

Yeah. That's not a bad idea, actually. And then the second part of the question is, how do you feel about mentors who charge for money for their time? That's not a mentor. That's not a mentor. That's a coach, yeah. That's a coach or an advisor that you're paying a consultant. So don't do that per se until you figure out what specifically you need, because you might need that coach. You might need that paid advisor. So let's break that down. You've done a great job of explaining what you

want to do. You're going to be in the content business. This is what John and I do. There's a why behind this. It's a beautiful why, by the way. As an adoptive parent, I've got to tell you, I love what you're doing. You've got a fan in me. I just want you to know that. And I love your story, and I'd love to know more about it.

All right, so what specifically? Are we talking about the creation of the content? Are we talking about producing it once it's written or created and getting it out there? Is it about distribution? Is it all of the above? Well, I can already tell you that I already have my outline and my introduction for my book.

I've already gotten a, well, I already have a multifaceted training program outlined and a full detail PowerPoint presentation prepared. And I've had numerous conversations with lots of nonprofits and state organizations. I'm not just sleeping on the job. Have you gone out and road tested this? Yeah. Have you met with groups and given the presentations and taught this stuff and had people give you feedback on it? That's kind of the step I'm in right now. One of the things I'm noticing is that those programs that I'm basically presenting the materials to, they all want the material, but they almost want to change the material into almost meet their mission and their goals. And it just doesn't feel in line with where I want it to be and where I want it to go and where I feel like I'm being

called to go. And so I really just need somebody to kind of be my accountability buddy to issue me deadlines. And then somebody who will also be honest with me and tell me if it totally stinks. So let me get back to where we were on the three things. John's right. You do need to test it. But if you fully flush this out, I know you got the PowerPoint, but that to me is not as important as have you written all this out? It sounds like you've got a piloted version, right?

Is that what I'm understanding? I do. I have a piloted version. I do not have the full content, and so I almost need somebody to push and give me, like, I need 20 pages by the end of the week. Okay, so now I would tell you that I think it would be good for you to kick the tires and talk to several writing coaches. I'll tell you, there's one that I recommend. I've interviewed her on my show before. She's really good.

Her name is Allie Fallon. You can contact her. I'm not telling you she's the only one. I'm just telling you she's one that I know, and she's really, really good at helping people. She has a writing coach service, but there are others. I want you to check out at least three or four more because if that's what you're needing is the coaching plus the accountability and the discipline to finish this stuff, I think that would be wise to do. But then it's back to what John asked about, and that is how much have you tested this? And you're going to run into some of this stuff, this frustration you have of, hey, I presented this organization, and they didn't want to do it, turnkey.

And you're going to have to be okay with that. Yeah. So I'll put it this way as nicely as I can. I've written two dissertations. I've I can. I've written two dissertations. I've published academically. I've written a best-selling book. And I tell you what, I've had to have a lot of people say, John, you think this is good, and it sucks.

And it's a lot of editing, a lot of revising, a lot of, hey, this sounded good in my head, but it didn't work in reality for this business or that person that single month. So you're going to have to enter this process with a lot of humility too, right? Take your idea and your passion and let other people refine it, refine it, refine it. That's right. So get the coach, finish it, then test it, edit it, test it again, keep going with it. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't move.

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I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, Dr. John Deloney. We're taking your calls, 888-825-5225, 888-825-5225. The housing market is hot, Doc. It really is. I mean, it's unbelievable what homes are going for in our area and around the country. And your house could be worth a lot more than it was when you bought it. This means your old insurance policy might not give you enough coverage anymore. What's the point of paying for insurance that won't swing the cost to repair or rebuild

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Text the word HOME to 33789. Let's go to Rockville, Maryland, where Amanda joins us. Amanda, how can we help? Hey, thank you all so much for what you guys do. It's been a huge help to my life in so many ways, and I'm really grateful for it. I'm 33 years old. I'm on Baby Step 2 with about $63,000 in student loans left to go.

But my question is actually a career question. I'm at a point where I'm facing some choices in my career that I haven't really had to face yet. I'm really fortunate that I have a lot of good options ahead of me. The background is I'm a freelancer in film and television. I recently came off of a long contract with a great company whose culture I love. I love my team there. I have the opportunity to go back to that company, but I would be going back to the exact same role without much potential for growth

at this time or if ever. Additionally, I need some time off in November for a commitment that I have and the company more than likely cannot allow me the time off. And then in the meantime, I'm actually being recruited by two of the largest companies in the playing field for a position that would be up the ladder with more responsibility, higher salary. But as you know, the interview process takes some time, and my boss at the former company needs a decision from me by next week about my ability to return.

So I just don't know how to approach these really good opportunities that I have ahead of me. Sure. So what would you do if neither one of these were available to you? What would you do? Would you go get a day job until you found the next freelance or film opportunity? I mean, I'm just curious because I think we have to look at this because there's two ways I think you could go.

You could take this current job knowing that you've got something else going. I don't think there's anything terribly ethically wrong there. It's not always the greatest impression you leave when you sign up with somebody and you leave two or three months later inside of that. But there's nothing terribly, there's nothing unethical about it, but it's not your first choice. So what would you do? What would you do to, what could you do that's temporary that would allow you to take care of what you need to take care of? Because you've got debt you're paying off, so we want to stay stable. We don't want to interrupt income.

So what could you do and play this thing out? Because you've got two companies that are recruiting you. There's a good chance you might get an offer, but we don't know how long it's going to take. Right, exactly. Right now I'm with a smaller company that I'm on a temporary contract for, and that will last at least three more weeks um but yeah there's still that question how much time are you going to take off in november um that would be about three weeks for another commitment and that's for another job commitment that i have yeah so i think this comes down to a math answer. What can I do to stay afloat so that I can say no to this gig that while it's safe,

and now they're bringing you back doing what you did before, there's no ladder. And you've got these other two opportunities that I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, if either one of those companies, big boys, call you and say, we want you based on what you're interviewing for are you going to take it yes absolutely yeah then i think you have to hold out so if it's me i'm staying afloat i'm treading water and i'm probably not going to say yes to the previous gig because you're just not going to stay there you're not going to stay there even if the big boys don't come to you're not going to stay there even if the big boys don't come to you. You're not going to stay there for very long. You're going to be looking, correct? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so I'm going to be patient, and I'm going to be persistent. I'm going to tread water financially. I'm going to do whatever it takes, but I am going to say no. That's what I would do. But, you know, look, the reality is that's up to you. John, you got anything to add to that? No, I think you're right on. Yeah, I mean, hey, don't overthink this.

You've got to take the shot, and this is a ladder. You are in a race right now with other people. I'd give everything you've got, throw everything you've got. I mean, fire every connection bullet, reference bullet you've got in the industry, and let's try to land one of those big boys because that's the ladder you want to be on. But I'm excited for you, Amanda. Yeah, perfect. Amanda, can I say this too?

You're being recruited by the big kids, right? Yeah. You're coming off a long-term contract. The market is telling you, the world is telling you, you're really good at this. Yeah. And sometimes when we get to overthinking it and we get those gaps in space, you start doubting yourself. Never forget to step

back and detach for a minute and realize, I'm really good at this. I'm going to find good work. And now, let's go play with the big kids. Say no to the good, Amanda, so you can say yes to the best. Somebody said that. I don't know who it was. I was going to say, man, you should put that on a jacket or something. I don't think of that.

I don't think somebody else has got that one. But it's still good advice. From this day forward, you're going to give it to me? I'm going to give it to Ken Cole. Man, I'm very excited about that. That's big time. All right, back to the phones. Maria joins us now in Bakersfield, California.

Maria, how can we help? Hi. Thank you for taking my call, Ken and Dr. John. How are you guys? We're having a blast. What's up? Good. I'm calling more so on the topic of parenting for Dr. John.

When I married my husband, I got blessed with three sons. And my question today, more so to get to the point, is to ask, how do we help them to – so they get a lot of disappointment at their mom's house. Okay, we just lost her. I just lost you. We'll try to figure that out. But, you know, that is, we're trying to, we got a little technical difficulty there. She's working on it.

But this is interesting. Yeah, yeah. Very interesting because what an interesting dynamic when you've got stepkids and you've got two environments. Yep. And very different environments at that. And the kids are having to toggle back and forth. What does that do to the kid? If we get her back, oh, there we go.

Okay, we've got about two and a half minutes. We'll see what we can do here. We may hold her over. All right, Maria, we lost you there. You were talking about they have a negative environment or negative experience when they go to moms. Pick up right there. Right, right.

So their safety is not in harm or anything, but constantly when they come back home, they go to moms. Pick up right there. Right, right. Right, so their safety is not in harm or anything, but constantly when they come back home, they have constant disappointment, especially with her boyfriend and things like that. So I just want to make sure, I want to see what are the best steps for us to take to help them with that. I don't, I just, it's heartbreaking to see them all the time

coming home crying and things like that. So I touch their faces, how Dr. John says all the time. And I just want to know what's the best thing to do. First and foremost, good for you. Like, man, I've just known and talked to so many step-parents over the years that want to make this situation all about them. Why don't my step-kids don't like me or they won't respect me and here you are you flipped it around and you want to know how you can best honor these three boys who are caught in a in a nightmare trying to decide which parent they're gonna they got if they feel like this sense of loyalty to

both sets of parents and they're toggling back and forth to this environment and that environment and sounds like they've got a great stable new stepmom in you but they're also dealing with their biological mom's boyfriends and this and that's and just becomes an absolute mess so good for you for thinking of them first that puts you way ahead of the game so here's what i want to do we're coming up here on a break and so i'm going to hold you over the break and then we come back we can dig into this a little bit more. But before we go, how old are these boys? They are 11, 9, and 7. 11, 9, and 7.

And how long have you been in their life? Five years. Five years. Are you and their dad married? Do you live there? Yes. And what are the custody arrangements? How long do they stay with you?

49, 51. They're here most of the weekends and summer vacation and winter vacation. Summer vacation and winter vacation. Very cool. So you get them a lot. So they're not huge fans of going to mom's house, huh? No, not at all.

Sounds like they're coming back pretty wounded. Pretty frustrated. So Maria, hang on. We got a debt- they're coming back pretty wounded and pretty frustrated. So, Maria, hang on. Yeah, we've got a debt-free screen coming up. We've got a debt-free screen. So hang on, Maria, and then we're going to loop all the way back to this. We're going to figure it out. John has taken over. We'll huddle during the break, but we're going to help you out.

Don't move. And the rest of you, don't either. This is the Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, Dr. John Deloney. We're taking your calls this hour, 888-825-5225. We're talking money. We're talking your work.

We're talking your relationships. And right before our last commercial break, Maria joined us in Bakersfield, California. And she's a stepmom and got some young men that she's now parenting. And there's some tension and stuff in the other home, the mom. So, Dr. John, take it away. So, Maria, right when we left, I want to tell you about, I was just so grateful for your heart. So, I'm going to give you a couple of things you can do here. And it's not going to be a perfect scenario, okay? It's going to be tough and it's going to be challenging

and this is the road y'all are on. I think it's important to know y'all are playing a long game here, right? You are raising three young men. You are not trying to make them happy every day and they're in a tough situation. So the first thing you guys can do always, and I trust that y'all do this, never, ever, ever talk bad about their mom.

Ever. Ever, ever. Okay? bad about their mom. Ever, ever, ever. Okay. And if it's an abusive situation, then you're going to get the authorities involved. If it is a situation where they just don't like her, it's uncomfortable, et cetera, then you're going to deal with them when they're at your house the best you can, but you're never going to talk bad about mom. Number two, you're going to make their home safe, stable, and consistent, right? They trust you. They're able to make their home safe, stable, and consistent. They trust you. They're able to talk to you.

Your home is a place where they go, if they end up with abusive boyfriends, it's unsafe. They continue to come home and they're crying. That's where I want to turn around and go back to either the social worker that's worked with this divorce or at some point you've got to go back and go back to either the social worker that's worked with this divorce, or at some point, you got to go back and contact your divorce attorney and get potential new custody arrangements. Because even if they're physically safe, if they're coming home emotionally wrecked, then at some point, they're psychologically unsafe. The trauma will stay with

them for years and years and years. And the final thing for you, make sure you and your husband are staying close together. Don't take this stuff personally. This isn't an attack on you. This is somebody else dealing with her challenges at her house. Y'all two, make sure you're good

so that you can support these young boys. Heartbreaking situation. Y'all do the best you can hanging on to them and make sure they got a safe space to come home to. Maria, you got this.

We love your heart. Hard, hard, hard. We love your heart. Thanks for trusting us. And best days are still ahead, I promise. Great stuff there. All right, John, I look out in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions and on the debt-free stage, a fantastic couple out there, Jay and Megan.

Jay and Megan, welcome. Hi. Hey, guys. How are y'all? How are you doing over there? I guess you're here to do a debt-free screen by the look of the shirts. Yes, sir. It says debt-free on there. Even I can figure that out. Fun stuff. All right, where are you guys from? Amarillo, Texas. Oh, wow. That's a long way. 806. Yes, sir. How much do you pay off? $163,000.

And how long? About three and a half years. Whoa. Wow. Okay. What kind of debt are we talking about? Mostly student loans, consumer. Everything. Everything. Cars. Credit cards, cars. Okay. Pretty normal. So you're totally normal. Just regular old West Texans. Oh yeah. Wow. What was your range of income during this time? So we were at $120,000 to $180,000. Ooh. What do you guys do for a living? So I'm a finance and accounting controller for Trinity Fellowship Church back home. Yeah. And I'm an audiologist. We own a hearing healthcare practice as well.

Sure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. So you went from $120,000 to $180,000? Yes, sir. All right. So what happened there? Was it a promotion for both of you? What extra work? What are we talking about?

Yeah, just over the time, just between that three and a half years, that's exactly what it was. Just promotions through work. Yeah. Okay. So what happened three years ago that made you decide to go on this journey? It's actually a little bit longer than three years, but he finally got on board with me about three years ago. Oh, see, this is why we saw the giggles.

I love it. Did you see the nervous giggles? She looked directly at him. Yeah, and he's a big dude, and he got nervous. The look was, I'm going to tell the truth in front of millions of people. Are you ready, honey? And he was like, I'm good. And that's okay.

That's okay. Good man. You're a smart man, by the way. Thank you. So, okay. So how long were you trying to get him on board? We know that three years ago he finally submitted. Yeah.

But how long were you trying to get him on board? It was probably a good two years. Wow. Which we don't recommend. No. No. I was doing the plan by myself. Jay.

Don't do that. Jay, what's the problem? What was the problem? I know. What was the problem? Can I make some guesses? I'm just looking at you and i'm totally judging you a big truck or jeep big tires nope no no i do have a truck though i do have a

truck but no okay then what was the hang-ups i was wrong i was wrong what was the hang-ups i i don't know i i really don't i don't know i mean i just i i was like half dave i was like dave ish okay okay you know yeah um but you'll mostly do it unless there's something really I was like half Dave. I was like Dave-ish. Okay. You know? Yeah. You'll mostly do it unless there's something really cool that you want that day, and you'll just go get that. So I like to golf. There we go. Okay. Yeah.

All right. That's enough of you. You're a golfer, huh? Yeah. John looks down his nose at people like that because he's the real-life Happy Gilmore. You ought to see this guy golf. He's never seen anything like it. I'm incredible.

Golf trips, golf equipment. You know, I got some buddies back home okay we we like our golf trips i get it so what so okay so i'm gonna ask you this jay so what happened three years ago where you finally say i'm in babe you know so for for me three years ago it was in the process of when we were buying our new house and i get the, the final, here's going to be your final mortgage payment. And I'm looking at it thinking, you know, this is doable, but what's unacceptable is our car payment is almost, if not more than half of what that mortgage payment was going to be. And I'm like, that's insane. Like we can't do that. Like with that car payment and this mortgage payment, we, we can't afford it. Yeah. So, yeah. So what'd you

start doing? I mean, so you've been on the plan, Megan, and finally Dolt over here decides to join in and you guys get after it. What'd you do? How intense was it? The very first thing we did was sell the big, brand-new Expedition. We got rid of it. Big, beautiful Expedition. So I guess that's more to your point. Big Jeep, big tires. Okay. We had it.

Turns out you were right. I'm not going to say I told you so, but it's cool. So you sold the big, fancy car. We sold it. We got a Hyundai Sonata. We're squished. We're still driving it. We call it the Sonata Cadillac.

Yes, I like that. But nobody's dead? Nobody's dead. No, your beautiful kids are here smiling. They're here. They're not zombies from no screens in the backseat, things like that. That was the first thing we did. Yeah, immediately.

Immediately. Yeah. No questions asked. We had to get rid of that thing. We were drowning in it. So who are your biggest cheerleaders? These guys right here. Yeah. This, no questions asked. We had to get rid of that thing. We were drowning in it. So who are your biggest cheerleaders? These guys right here. Yeah.

This is our accountability group. Yeah. They are accountability partners right here. They did it with us. Yeah, they did. And so it was so much easier just to, when we're having a moment where we want to take a vacation, you know, we've been doing this for two and a half years. We deserve to take a trip to text the Rachels and say, we want to go to Mexico. No, you're not.

Don't do that. Just stick with it. Just wait. Just hang on. We're almost there. That'll work. We have a great church community as well. All right, so real quick, teach everybody listening that haven't taken this journey,

maybe they're in the middle of it, they don't think they can finish. What's the key? Oh, man. We say that there's three primary keys. The first one is get on the same plan. You just have to be on the same plan. 100%. Yep.

Have to. Yep. Second one is accountability. Find just somebody that's doing it with you, whether it's in a Facebook group, somebody that's doing it in the church with you. Yep. We did.

We're also coordinators for FU. Oh, thank you very much. Yeah. So we've led three or four classes. Yeah. It's hard not to stay on the plan when you're telling other people how to do the plan. It's true. It's true how that works.

You kind of got to walk the walk. Yes. Yeah. And then the third one for us, I think, is when we finally sat down and realized that God actually has a plan laid out for how he wants you to be a steward of his money. So when we first started, it was more, we got to do this because we made really stupid decisions. And then when we figured out, you know, God had a plan all along. He has a plan. I love it.

It's there. And it became less about discipline and more about stewardship. And that made it easy. Alright, so here's what we've got to do. Let's get the kiddos in. While you bring them in, tell us who they are. Okay, we've got Nolan. Nolan. He's nine. Nice. This is our Nolanator. And this

is Elliot. She's six. Alright, is everybody ready to do the debt-free screen? You guys are practicing. You're ready to go, right? We're ready. Blow the roof off. All right, here it is. Jay and Megan, $163,000 paid off in three years. Megan, $120,000 to $180,000. Beautiful legacy, beautiful family.

Let's hear your debt-free scream. You guys ready? Three, two, one. We're debt-free! There it is. Yes! Another family debt free, another legacy, another family tree changed. Really good stuff.

He is Dr. John Deloney, I'm Ken Coleman, and this is The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, Dr. John Deloney, and we're taking your questions about life, specifically your money, your work, and your relationships. John and I specialize in those two areas. I'm helping people find purpose in work, but also get the practical benefits of work, the paycheck, a bigger one, getting promoted so that you can do that and move into doing your dream job. And then John, of course, helping people with relationships, mental, emotional health. So we'll take those questions along with your standard money questions as well. Thrilled that you are joining us, 888-825-5225.

888-825-5225. Let's go to Chicago, Illinois, where Christine joins us. Christine, how can we help? Hi, John. Hi, Ken. How are you? I'm a little nervous right now. Oh, you're doing great.

You're doing great. Yeah. What's up? I have an important question to ask you in regards to job and career. Recently just started a newer job with really good pay. I'm a healthcare provider working with the underprivileged and making a difference in trying to help these patients. Awesome.

I'm just wondering at this point with everything that's going on and trying to mandate the vaccine for health care providers in a lot of places. And now knowing that the federal government has implemented it in the VA system, and it might eventually trickle down to private practices and administrations and hospital administrations, how do you feel about compromising your morals for keeping a job? So explain your moral challenges with this. Even though we don't know if you're going to have this mandate come your way, I do like that you're walking through it, but let's walk it all the way out.

If they say you've got to have it for employment, where do you feel like you are sacrificing your morals? My religious beliefs against the aborted fetal cells that are being used, either in the process or in the actual vaccines they have available. Are you leaning towards compromising or are you leaning towards saying, I can't do this and I got to walk? You were leaning one way or another when you called. Which way are you leaning?

Leaning towards not compromising. Yeah. So you have to prioritize that. And I'm going to tell you something right now. If this is an integrity thing or a very deep religious-held spiritual conviction, I support that, but you've got to make plans for it. You've got to know what you can live with and what you cannot. And I will tell you, you need to seek counsel.

I've talked to several people in the last month, some on my show, and I've got friends calling me. I've got a friend who called me who's a state employee in another state and feels like it's coming down and asked me the same question. And he has done some homework. He went and sought legal counsel. And I would seek legal counsel, an employment specialist, and I would get some counsel, maybe two or three different lawyers, and talk to her about the religious exemption, I will tell you that it's going to be, I think, a grab bag, maybe 50-50, as to whether some organizations will say that's okay. Some, I think, will honor the religious exemption. I'm hearing of that, and some will not, and it's going to be a time to choose, unfortunately. That's where we stand.

But, you know, look, if you plan for this financially and you've got a plan for if this happens, what would I do? Meaning I'm going to walk. I'm not going to take it. As long as you've got a plan, then I think you have to honor your conviction there. I'm not going to tell you to go against your conviction. Yeah. And what I would, I would recommend two things. Number one, get some information. I've, I've, when it comes to the vaccine, I've never heard of the particular challenges you've mentioned. Um, I've tried to stay pretty close to the science on it, but I may be wrong. I've never heard that. So I'd get, I'd get with some folks in you're in the medical field. So you can get some good clarity on that. The second thing is back out of this, cause this is a hot, hot, hot moment in history,

back out of this particular issue and ask yourself on any ethical issue. They ask you to start overbilling somebody. They ask you to go ahead and change this number on Medicare. They ask you to fudge your mileage a little bit when you're taking these kids to their appointments. Whatever the thing is, I always want you to double down on doing the right ethical thing for your heart, for your family, for your conscience. And that goes back to what Ken was talking about. On any particular issue, that's why the emergency fund is so important. That's why having a network is so important.

That's why having friends in your life, friends are your emergency fund for life, right? That's why we do these things so that when you're faced with situations, regardless of what they happen to be, and you say, I've got to walk out that front door, that you've got a safety net. You've got a cushion there for you, right? So, if you feel like this is coming down, what I don't want you to do is catastrophize it.

I don't want you to set yourself off into fight or flight and start solving problems that aren't there yet. And we can all do that. We can ruminate. We can just sit there and go down internet rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole and make something. Our bodies respond to an issue that hasn't even happened yet, right? And we can always get some more information and some more information.

But do start playing. And if you have to make hard choices, hard changes, have that safety net there. Well, Christine, the decision's already been made. You've already made the decision, and I respect that. I respect men and women who will take a stand on principle, and in this situation, this is a religious conviction. I will tell you, to me, it's about freedom. And, you know, you can do all the research you want to and somebody can i mean for every for every person that says what you say that hey i don't like the way the

vaccine's been developed and tested you'll have somebody goes like john well i haven't heard that so i think he's right you can go do your homework and make sure that you're absolutely sure on that conviction but do not waver and you know people calling and i appreciate the call people saying hey should i do what i think is right or should i do what i think is expedient for me professionally and folks you know we live in america where we've not had to make a lot of these choices all the time uh and john's right it doesn't always have to be a political vaccine issue because this is this has become a political football. Yeah. Pure and simple. Yeah.

I don't care what side you're on. That's why I like to get out of those and say, when you're faced with any sort of ethical Well, but you can't get out of it. You have to say, in this particular situation, she doesn't feel right about this for the reasons that she left out. Now, you're right to say, go do your research and make sure that you're right because this is a monumental decision. Right. You don't want to make it.

Right, right, right. On opinion or theory. Right or theory you got to know the facts are the facts that then affect my belief right however you're also right this could be as simple as they're asking you to fudge your expense reports you know so that they can cook the books that's equally wrong and and i would say the same thing if you feel wrong about that come up with a plan that's right you don't have to leave tomorrow. That's right. But if you want to leave tomorrow, I'm fine with that too. That's absolutely right. But you've got to also have a plan.

Conviction is important, but we also need to do it in a way that's wise. That's right. And I think that you address that. We say this a lot on the show. Nobody makes good decisions when their head's on fire, right? When they're stressed. When you spend hours and hours and hours huddled around a water cooler or huddled down internet rabbit holes, man, those are designed to set your body on fire. Well, I'm glad you said this because I'm going to tell you something right now. And you may not agree, and that's fine.

Because you and I can disagree agreeably. We do it all the time. But I think you're right. I don't care what the Biden White House is saying, and I don't care what your company is saying. On some level, people have rights, and you can go seek legal counsel and do your homework, but whatever mandates are coming or not coming,

because we don't know that this is coming. Of course. We're hearing all kinds of stuff. Of course. The reality is there will be legal challenges to this stuff. Of course there will be. Which means delays. Right.

So to your point, let's not all freak out and assume that we've got to quit our jobs because somebody's going to take a vaccine that we don't want to take. Yeah. Let's not jump to that conclusion because I think that's not that simple. I've worked for places where I have been asked to be in situations that I'm not comfortable with. The beauty was I'd already thought through my ethical positions. And so when I came home and sat down with my wife and said, hey, here's where we are and here's what – it wasn't a, oh, no, what are we going to do? Those were difficult when I owed six figures of student loans and we were paycheck to paycheck to paycheck, right? I put myself in a position where holding my ethical standards

was more difficult. Yeah. But we appreciate the call, Christine. This is not easy stuff. I love that you're getting out in front of it. Don't make a decision based on fear. Make it based on facts. Hey, I want to thank our producer, Ben Hill, our associate producer of this hour, Laura Johnson, back in the booth. I want to thank my colleague, Dr. John Deloney, and you, America. Thank you for joining us. This is The Ramsey Show. Have a friend or family member that needs a daily dose of Ramsey advice in their life? Let them know about the Ramsey Call of the Day podcast.

It's a quick hit of advice about life and money in under 10 minutes. Check out the Ramsey Call of the Day podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.