The Ramsey Show - App - Should I Pay for My Kids’ College or Make Them Pay for It? (Hour 3)

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

Education, Home Buying, Debt, Education As heard on this episode: Sign Up for a FREE trial of Ramsey+ TODAY: https://bit.ly/3rZTUAx Tools to get you started:  Debt Calculator: https://bit.ly/2Q64HME Insurance Coverage Checkup: https://bit.ly/3sXwUn5 Complete Guide to Budgeting: https://bit.ly/3utmVXi Check out more Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3fHhbVE

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. It's common sense for your work, your life, your money, and your relationships.

It's what we talk about here every day. Nettie is with us in Mesa, Arizona. Let's start off this hour. Hi, Nettie. How are you? I pushed the wrong button. I'm losing it. There you are, Nettie. How are you, Nettie? Good. Hi. I'm losing it. There you are, Nettie.

How are you, Nettie? Hi, I'm doing good. I just have a quick question. I'm on baby step number five, and my wife and I read your book. We have two kids. We're just kind of stuck in the college fund um you know we believe and i know there's studies showing like you know oftentimes kids would just get handed you know their you know money or just pay for stuff um oftentimes it ends up hurting them more because they get a

freebie um so i just i didn't read in your, I didn't really feel like I got a clear direction of why to have a college fund. I didn't know why we would look for a college fund for having them pay for themselves. So you're saying you would prefer not to furnish any money for your kids' college and for them to pay for their own because you're afraid that when kids are handed money, you're going to ruin them.

I'd actually like to have them something so I don't want to give it to them right when they get out of high school or something. I want them to work for it. How old are your kids? One's six and then one's six months months i'm sorry your phone broke up six months and what two years two years okay all right still a little well there's nothing wrong with what you're saying if you want to go that route i've got a friend who was a professional football player and uh he his school was paid for because he went to college on a football scholarship and he's a you know he grew

up in a real hardcore blue collar household and he had to work for everything and he said his kids are going to work or they're going to get a scholarship they're going to figure it out he'll help him show them how to do it but he's not giving them a dime and he's real hardcore on that and if you want to be that that's okay there's nothing wrong with that um the vast majority of people that we work with want to help fund their kids college one way or the other the uh and that's why the baby step is there we did fund our kids college and uh we did not ruin our children in the process uh so the uh you know the the sub that i think that that you know the thing i would think on from a parenting standpoint i'm not arguing with you you're

welcome to do what you're talking about there's nothing wrong with what you're talking about okay but the reason that i went a different direction was i discovered that my children turning out to have a work ethic and have integrity and have character uh didn't have as much to do with how much money i gave them as how i made them behave yeah it's true and so my kids know how to knew how to work before they went to college work ethic was required in our household i'm a hard-working guy and i believe in hard work. The harder I work, the luckier I get, you know, and that kind of stuff. I'm that guy, you know. So our kids had jobs.

They had jobs at the house. They had chores they had to do. They got paid for the chores. Some of them, some of them they did just because you love your mother. Shut up, and you help your mother, right? And so we did some of that that and we mixed it up and and so and and they're getting help for college was contingent upon them behaving if they weren't going to behave uh correctly then you know you're not gonna be out here playing beer pong and uh you know sleeping

around all over the place and you know this is not a chance for you to try to show out all the stupid human tricks in one four-year period of time and me fund it. You know, so we're not doing that either. So the gift for college was contingent upon that. But by the time they got to college, it was not really a probability they were going to do that because we'd already handled those behavior issues long before college um those people that show out usually weren't taught to behave long before college or they're clamped down on so hard it was the first time they ever were allowed to have their own thoughts uh and they blow up at college one of the two

so uh you know that's just kind of a parenting discussion we can have but but at the end of that discussion if you still say hey i'm not giving them a dime the little turkeys are going to work for it i'm not going to be mad about that i will challenge you that it's a big bill and you need to show them a method to get to be able to pay for it teach them entrepreneurial skills so they can run their own business while they're in school, make good money, not be flopping whoppers and hope they can get through school. Teach them about selecting an inexpensive school

because they're not going to have much money to go to school with. Teach them about getting scholarships. Teach them about getting good grades to get good scholarships and being good citizens to get good scholarships. And teach them some of the methodology like we have in the Ramsey book, debt-free degree. You should coach them, especially if you're not going to give them money. But there's no moral requirement that says you have to pay for your children's college

or you're a bad parent. And on the other hand, if you do pay for your kid's college, it doesn't say you're necessarily a bad parent either, that somehow you allowed them to be trust fund babies with no sense of dignity, identity, or personal responsibility. Those things should be taught independent of money. The way they handle money should be the result of the character you grow in them as a dad and as a mom.

Really good discussion, man. Thank you for calling in with that. Marisol is with us in Augusta, Georgia. Is it Marisol? Did I say that right? Marisol? Yes. Okay.

Yes. Can you hear me okay? Yes. How can I help? Hey, I just have maybe one or two questions so um so a little bit of the story i can say this year 2022 about um 20 grand good because right now i don't have um nothing in my savings i had five thousand dollars but i used it to pay my mom's surgery a couple weeks back because um right now i'm basically the breadwinner in my household.

I mean, my stepfather has a job, but I make more than he does. So he covers most of the bills in the house, and I cover basically the medical bills for my mom and my dad. It's really stressful because... How old are you? I'm 25, about to be 25. What do you make? I make about $48 a year.

What do you do? I'm a diesel mechanic. Okay. Why don't you get out on your own? Let everybody else run their own life. Like go on my own? Yeah, like go get you an apartment and run your own life and quit taking care of everybody else and everybody else taking care of you

well um i used to live by myself and i got involved in some pretty bad stuff and financially everything went down so i went back to my mom's house and she doesn't ask for anything i just go ahead and pay for her medical bills are you. Are you healed from dealing with bad stuff? Yeah, I'm healed. I was involved in bad stuff. Yeah, so don't do bad stuff and go get on your own. That's what I would do. Hang on.

I'm going to send you a copy of the Total Money Makeover to show you what you do with the money while you're doing that. Most people know me as the guy who did stupid with a lot of zeros on the end. I made my first million dollars in my 20s the wrong way and then went bankrupt. That's when I set out to learn God's ways of managing money and developed the Ramsey Baby Steps. By following these steps, I became a millionaire again, and this time the right way. After three decades of guiding millions of others through the plan, the evidence is undeniable. If you follow the baby steps, you will become a millionaire and get to live and give like no one else. The pre-order on my new book, Baby Steps Millionaires, is almost over. When you pre-order my new book, you'll learn how ordinary people built extraordinary wealth and how you can too. I'll walk you through how to invest, build wealth, and bust through the

barriers preventing you from becoming a millionaire. Hurry, this pre-order ends soon. Get your copy today at RamseySolutions.com. Thank you for joining us, America. This is The Ramsey Show. One week from today, Thursday, January the 13th, we will be in the middle of book launch week for the new book, Baby Steps Millionaire. And we're going to do our free live stream event called Building Wealth in 2022. In-person tickets are sold out. Over 1,500 people registered in the first few days that we put the in-person live event up for sale.

The good news is you can watch this as a live stream and we're not going to charge you a dime over 60 000 people are already registered to watch the live stream rachel cruz george camel and i are going to talk about how to build wealth this year not only about what's going on in the real world and we'll discuss stuff like crypto and nfts and we'll discuss the things that are going on in the investment world. There's a real get-rich-quick thing vibe moving around in America today, and we're going to discuss it in a way that's understandable without having to call anybody names, and then as a result of doing it, we will get called names.

Welcome to social media. But hey, we're looking forward to this. Exactly one week from today, Building Wealth in 2022 is a free live stream, one night only event. Thursday, January 13th. Join the thousands who have already registered for free by going to RamseySolutions.com slash wealth. And you can register RamseySolutions.com slash wealth, and you can register, ramsaysolutions.com slash wealth. And we are in the last few days of your ability to buy the Baby Steps Millionaire's book for $20. It actually launches next week, and the $20 deal will be gone. Plus, you get all the goodies if you do it as a preorder.

So do the preorder on it because you get the e-book and the audio book included. You get the Legacy Journey e-book and audio book included. You get all kinds of other stuff. I mean, there's a whole pile of things. Just check it out at RamseySolutions.com. It's over $150 worth of items if you pre-order. So go ahead and pre-order the book this week. Get it this weekend.

Let people know that they need to get it over the weekend. $20 is a deal. Books have gone up because paper has gone up. And our costs on the books have gone up. And other publishers, when we look at what they're doing, their costs have gone up. And that's the thing. That's the deal. So be sure and do all of this.

RamseySolutions.com. Marco is in Los Angeles. Hi, Marco. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

All right. So just a quick history about me. I'm a 33-year-old male. I'm currently making about $125 on an annual salary. I have no debt except for a car payment, and I currently owe $26,000 on it. However, my goal is to become a homeowner. So my question is, should I sell that vehicle and buy something in cash, or should I finish paying off my car before I begin saving for a

house? How much do you owe on the car? $26,000. You told me that saving for a house. How much do you owe on the car? $26,000. You told me that. I'm sorry. How much do you have in savings? About $40,000. Okay. All right.

What's the car? What kind of car? It's a Jeep Gladiator. Do you like it? It's okay Jeep Gladiator. You like it? It's okay. Okay. What would I do if I woke up in your shoes? I'm 33 years old.

I make $125,000. I've got $40,000 in the bank. I want to buy a house. I have a $26,000 car debt. I'd write a check as soon as you get off the phone, jump online, and pay the car off. That leaves you $14,000 and no car payment. I'd get on a tight budget. You got nobody to control but you.

That's easy. Just decide to control you and make it $125,000. I'd save a huge pile of money by this time next year for my down payment, and I'd buy a house next spring with a massive down payment. I bet you could save $60,000 60 or 80 000 bucks if you really leaned into it that's what i would do if i woke up in your shoes alia is in trenton new jersey hi alia welcome to the ramsey show thank you hello mr ramsey hi what's up? So, a quick review. I recently started following my dream of studying a master's in architecture in 2020.

Good. I'm about a quarter, thank you, I'm about a quarter finished with it. It's about $26,000 for a year. I do work full-time, but more recently I kind of started this kick with financial freedom and just kind of changing the trajectory of my family lineage. Not to mention this year I'm in the process of donating my kidney to my mom. So my question, yeah, so I guess if you were in my shoes, what would you do? Um, I kind of have three options, pause school and pay off my debt, then return once I'm done.

I can also stretch out my program and pay as I go, or should I get like a certification in a related field, such as UX, um, to fund college once I'm debt free. What are you doing now? What do you do you do now um i'm currently a service rep i'm sorry a service rep yeah so essentially a junior uh sales rep okay now you're you're studying architecture but you're trying to get your master's in architecture, and it's a four-year program? It's a three-year program, but because I work full-time,

I have to study a bit at a slower rate than the typical person. And what do you make a year? $60,000. Good for you. Okay. Okay. Hmm. year? $60,000. Good for you. Okay. I wonder what, at what point in this process that you could join an architectural firm in a junior position that wasn't licensed? Yeah, I've been looking into that. It's just a little difficult to get into it because it does require some

experience and um my background is in business so it's just a little challenging no it is challenging no question everything in front of you is challenging though oh yeah you don't have you didn't have anything on your list that wasn't challenging oh my gosh i mean welcome to life, huh? But the, how old are you? 26. Good for you. Good for you.

Thank you. The good news is that you are thinking about doing all of the things you're considering doing on purpose instead of letting life happen to you. So I predict that you're going to be successful because if you keep doing that, that does lead you to success. Sometimes you have to go around the barn twice to get there, but it'll lead you there because you keep thinking about the future. You keep thinking about where I want to end up and what are the steps to get there so that I end up there. You have a clear what we call desired future is, is that at the end of this, at the end of this chapter of the story, you are working as a master's degreed licensed architect. That's our goal. Agreed? Yes, sir.

So then we have to ask ourselves, what is the shortest, most efficient process to get there, which is kind of what you're asking me. Okay. process to get there, which is kind of what you're asking me. It occurs to me, even if you took a pay cut, if you could get on, even if you're doing the business aspects of an architectural firm for an architectural firm, for instance, if you were helping them in business development, meaning you were helping them get new clients, clients kind of like you do now but you did it for an architectural firm that they might be willing to pay for your education while you're working there i mean if you made fifty thousand dollars a year and they paid for your education we got a net increase agree yes sir i just made that up i don't know where that job exists but i know it exists somewhere i just don't know where and what you got to go through to get there now uh there's

the kidney process you also got to kind of factor that thing in what's the recovery time on that the downtime because you don't want to take a new job and then be out for six weeks that doesn't work, right? Right. Correct. So you kind of got to think that through. But I think if you're careful, you probably can figure out a way to get this degree without any additional debt working. And you may or may not start parts of that before or after the kidney donation, which is an unbelievably wonderfully charitable thing to do. It says a lot about your character, the good things about your character. So, yeah, that's probably what I would do. Let me send you a couple of Ken Coleman's books to help you with this. The Proximity Principle is kind of what I've got in mind while I'm talking about this,

but I'll also send you Paycheck to Purpose, which is what the process is. Get that clear path going that he lays out for you. Welcome to the Ramsey Show, America. We're glad you're here. Dovi and Kaya are with us in Baltimore. Hi, guys. How are you? We're good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. I see on my screen you're debt-free. Congratulations. How much did you pay off? Thank you. We paid off $140,000. All right. How long did this take?

It took... Exactly 16 months. 16 months. And your range of income during those 16 months? So we started out at $100,000 together and then landed on $201,000 and $736,000. Your income went up $100,000 in 16 months. Not bad. I'd say so, too.

Yeah. So what caused that income to go up like that? Well, so I started working seven jobs, and my wife picked up another job for a total of nine jobs between the two of us. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So for the six months, every single day of the six months, I was working and my wife was working most of the days as well. Wow. That's crazy, crazy, crazy. Go, go, go, go, go, go. What kind of debt was the $140,000? So primarily student loans and about $2,000 of it was in musical instruments. Okay.

Oh, wow. Very cool. What do you all do for a living with your main jobs? So I am a physician assistant and Dovi is a paramedic and a COVID site manager. Yeah, I run a COVID testing center. And I also decided to take you up on your advice and sell everything but the kids. So I started a business just selling things on eBay, on Facebook.

All right. What is your most profitable, what's your best side gig, Dovey? My best side gig would probably be um selling stuff on on facebook and ebay and stuff like that i've sold watches i've sold cars people wanting to get rid of them from houses um you know like their grandparents passed away i take a commission off of that and i'm just selling stuff like that wow cool good for you man you've been getting after it so uh how long you guys been married uh eight years i think now almost nine years so what happened 16 months ago that lit

you on fire because you guys are burning bright um so 16 months ago we uh started a... We've been Dave-ish for maybe five years. But 16 months ago, we decided that we were really sick and tired of being sick and tired and having too much a month at the end of the money. So we decided that we would get completely Dave and just go be gazelle intense. We listened to Total Money Makeover, and we were driving up to visit friends in New York. We listened to Total Money Makeover the whole way up and then the whole way down, finished it,

and from there we were gazelle intense, beans and rice, no internet, no TV. Is that what flipped the switch, just the audio book? What kind of rubbed it in your face? Well, that and for a while, the reason we were Dave-ish is because we couldn't imagine how I would get through PA school without loans at that point. And then my first job was something that would qualify me for loan forgiveness. And for a while, I was kind of stuck on the idea of that being a good idea,

and then we actually, like you say, sat down and did the math on an Excel spreadsheet and kind of figured out that with me staying there to try to get loan forgiveness, we would end up losing on a lot of money that we could potentially make if I changed jobs to something that paid more and that allowed um dovi to work more yeah and the net result is you make more money net of the forgiveness even yeah that's good good very good way to go you guys way to go how's it feel to be free it's awesome it's really really great i mean it just feels

like there's so much extra and you know you can just give it away you guys have been busting it i mean you got to be a little tired very tired we're towards the end of 3b right now so we're we're gonna slow down in a little bit but we're still we're still running all right way to go guys way to go way to go who was your biggest cheerleader outside the two of you somebody outside looking at you going go go go go so initially not really it was it was pretty rough when we started because everybody was kind of hating on us but um but then we we got into an fpu class and our fpu uh and uh guides were very very much our cheerleaders and they're good friends of ours um and they even advised us to start our own fpu class we we ran an fpu class they're like if you guys if you if you start if you lead an fpu class

i guarantee you you'll get out of debt yeah you finish the FPU class. And they were right. They gave both of us the energy to just, you know, get the rest of it paid off really, really quickly. Well, there's something about being in the middle of it every time. Every week you're in the middle of it with other people that just fires you back up and keeps you going. Exactly. Yeah, and it was nice to have the community like it was also local so even though it was online the class we attended initially was all kind of people from the

community who we became friends with and so it was nice to kind of be in the same boat with with other people who weren't you know keeping up with the joneses and we're also kind of using the same old lunchbox or whatever to help kind of like not feel bad about it driving a 91 car there you go that's a badge of courage right there isn't it i like it just as a temporary thing you drive like no one else later you can drive like no one else this is what you've been doing you work like no one else you've been you now you can work like no one else you don't have any payments anywhere way to go guys this is excellent thank you so proud of you guys so what are you telling people now you're

in the financial peace class you guys have been busting it you pay off 140,000 in 16 months what do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is um definitely getting on the same page with your spouse. I know that's one that's said often, but it really does require that team effort, that community just within the marriage. And, you know, for anyone who's not in a marriage, having a partner or a friend, like essentially having that community, having that support, because it can be really easy to falter. There's so much media, there's so many advertisements, like everything trying to tell you not to do what Dave says to do. So to have those people around, I think is a really big deal. And also to recognize that, you know, if the math doesn't

make sense, that, yeah, you've got to work more and you've got to spend less. And you just got to get used to that idea. Wow. Powerful. Good for you. Well, you're right. Financial Peace University sets you up in that community where you've got the accountability, you've got the encouragement, and you've got other people modeling and doing it right there with you.

It's not like you're by yourself then. You've got to have some people around you cheering you on, you pulling you whatever it takes and that's just it's necessary so so proud of you guys very well done your heroes great job we got a copy of the baby steps millionaires book for you we're going to send it to you it comes out next week and we'll send it to you then and uh so you'll get a copy, a brand-new copy of that, because that's the next chapter in your story for sure. You're going to be Baby Steps Millionaires. And then we'll also send you a copy of the Total Money Makeover,

which is, you know, the audio book's what got you guys fired up, so you can give that hardback book away to someone, maybe disrupt their world, get them off of ish and get them moving. I'm proud of you guys. Well done. Amazing. Well done. Amazing. Thank you. $140,000 paid off in 16 months, making $100,000 to $200,000.

Oh, man. Dovey and Kia in Baltimore, Maryland. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're the three! Yeah! Let the next chapter begin, baby.

Woo! That's how you do it. Man, that couple's been working. Wow. Impressive. This is the Ramsey Show. Let's go. Our scripture of the day, Proverbs 13, 4. The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.

Wow, that seems to apply to our last caller, doesn't it? Guy was working seven jobs. Most people get ahead during the time that others waste henry ford i like that open phones at 888-825-5225 elizabeth is with us elizabeth is in des moines iowa hi elizabeth welcome to the ramsey show hi Hi, how are you, Dave? Better than I deserve. What's up in your world? Good. So I am on board with becoming a millionaire. That sounds fantastic.

Good. But the issue with that is losing it all. My father worked very hard to become a millionaire, and he suddenly passed away a couple years ago, about five years ago. And right around the same time, my mom was diagnosed with early-onset dementia. Oh, my. And, yeah, it was rough. How old is your mom now?

She is 66, so she was 62 when she got diagnosed. But, I mean, the signs had been there for years. I had mentioned it. It's just really hard to get. So your dad was like 60 years old when he passed? He was 62. Wow. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. Thank you. Yeah. Um, so it, there was a silver lining in that, which is, um, all of his assets. It's sad, but pretty much most of his assets have gone towards care for my mom. Um, and to be honest, it's, it's not enough. A million dollars is not enough to pay for early onset dementia care. Um, even in assisted living assisted living, if you're frugal about it

and you really don't want to be frugal about it, it's a lot of money. And doing the quick math, if there's only a 3% increase each year on the rent, which it's been five for my mom, if I were to go through the same thing, my husband would basically have to pay either $4 million out of pocket if I were to live for about 20 years, which is what we're projecting for my mom, or he'd have to live on $2,000 a month and have absolutely no assets. He couldn't have a house or a car. And long-term care insurance only pays for six years of care. So financially, I don't know what to do in order to make sure my husband's taken care of. Because there's always Medicaid for if that happens to me, but what about him?

Yeah. I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Thanks. And your reaction of great concern about this is a normal reaction, but the statistics don't back up your fears which is good news i'm hoping yes they really don't um the number the number of early onsets that live 20 years is there's not any they don't you know there's very very few early onsets live 20 years. It's been pretty, it's been five years, and she's pretty healthy. I know.

We have had early onsets in our family, and I've walked through it. And just, I mean, do a little bit of research, not just with your mom's situation, but with overall. And let's not even talk about your mom. I'm not trying to wish, you know, a short longevity on her. That's not what I'm saying. No, I know mom i'm not trying to wish you know a short longevity on her that's not what i'm saying no i know i'm not that indelicate but um but the but but here's the thing the point is is that the set of assumptions you're using uh are statistically so unlikely the probability is so unlikely that you're using on you that your husband ends up this way that I, I think I, you know, I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to worry about it. I think you guys go about the business of building wealth and plan on getting your six-year long-term care, and you're correct about that. And at 60 years old is when I would buy it. Even though she had symptoms because we could not get her long-term care insurance because the doctors already noticed. I understand. But, again, that's so unusual statistically.

The number of people that use long-term care insurance prior to 60 is so statistically insignificant that it's just i wouldn't do it if you want to buy it at 55 because of your fears that's fine but you're going to pay you know three thousand bucks a year for five years for a 0.0001 chance is what you're doing and um and it's okay to do that but but you just need to let's not um it's it's you should hurt and you should grieve with what you've been through and i'm sorry you're hurting and grieving i i don't want that for you but i also don't want that to make your decision i want you to use facts not all of the hurt and the feelings to make your decisions with on this and and i am being indelicate and telling you you're doing that right now so don't yeah um no and what you're

doing is a human reaction and it means you're a good daughter and a good person, and it doesn't mean you're an illogical person or something like that. It's a normal thing. But I'm not in the trees with you, so I can see the forest. So here's the thing. I would buy long-term care insurance if you want to buy it a few years early, 57 even. Go ahead. I really wouldn't do it at 55. And I really would just get about the business of building wealth and I wouldn't try to do this and

then the the other thing I would do is I would continue to learn the care systems that are available um to someone and how you might do this more economically than maybe you started out thinking it was going to cost um there's a lot of different care out there, a lot of different types of care, a lot of different ways to get at this, and even in-home care. So let me give you an example, okay? Our net worth is large enough that if it was $4 million, it really wouldn't be a big deal. But we wouldn't end up spending $4 million on it at our house because for less than $4 million, I can hire a full-time nurse

and set up a full medical ward inside my house and take care of someone, have someone taken care of. For instance, if that happened to my wife, okay, or if it happened to me, she could do that. And so there's other ways to for your husband to deal with this if that comes up i'm not suggesting you change your mom's care plan that you have i'm uh and i'm not suggesting this is cheap it's not cheap but um but but uh the numbers you're giving aren't are so unlikely that the hopelessness

that goes with your scenario is not necessary. There's great hope in your scenario. But, yeah, it's fair to overplan, and it's fair to, you know, have some extra padding because you might have this probability because your dad passed early and your mom did get early onset, that it just, because of that history, you're just going to be super careful. And that's okay. And that's part of personal financial.

It's got personal in it. So, hey, thank you for your call. Again, I'm just so sorry for all the stuff you guys have gone through and all the hurt that's been there for you because you obviously loved your mom and dad both and do love them. And early onset, it's just a beast. It's just not fair. It's like because we don't know how far it goes goes we don't know how long it lasts it's pretty

crazy so um but i think we can do some statistical analysis on probabilities and it's a cold way of looking at it but you know that this is what you got to do this because this is how you figure out your insurance plans how you figure out those kinds of things. And believe me, the insurance companies are doing these analysis. So we might as well be in on the math as you and I, America, are planning out our old age and not losing all the wealth we worked our whole lives for, which is what she's concerned about, and that's a fair concern. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. Our thanks to James Charles and

Kelly Daniel in the booth. I am Dave Ramsey, your host. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus. Hey, it's Kelly, associate producer and phone screener for The Ramsey Show. If you would like to do your debt-free scream live on the show, make sure you visit theramseyshow.com and register. We would love for you to come to Nashville and tell Dave your story.