The Ramsey Show - App - Should I Save for a Potential Government Shutdown? (Hour 1)

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

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🎵 Nothing. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us. Open phones this hour at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.

We're going to start off this hour with Nick in Pennsylvania. Hi, Nick. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave. How are you? I am better than I deserve, sir. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you. How can I help today?

Dave, I was calling because I am pretty new to your show and to the Baby Steps. As a little background, I'm the husband in a family of five. We're homeowners. We have, we're homeowners. We have about $71,000 in student debts. We owe about $9,000 on a car. And between my wife and I, our take-home pay is about $9,400 per month after tax. Good. So my question is that my income has been a little bit more variable lately than I'm comfortable with.

And having three small children at home, I'm wondering if there would be any reason that I should consider switching the order of steps two and three in the baby steps so that I could save up a reserve cash in the event of a potential emergency need for that money. Yeah. Well, sometimes people do that uh we have not seen it to be successful and uh and here's the reason part of what gets you out of debt is that you're angry about being in debt and you're scared about being broke and that anger and that fear drives you to extreme focus, extreme levels of sacrifice to get your butt out. How old are you? I am 31 days. Yeah.

So you've been bebopping along for about six or seven years being normal. And it's got you $71,000 and $9,000 in debt. And you hadn't moved the needle. That's not a bad thing that just makes you a normal person but what you're discovering is normal is not really going to work for your future you want excellence in your future and so um you know i understand that when you take it down to one thousand dollars in savings with three kids at home that you're going to be really game on that you're going to be really focused that you're going to be really game on, that you're going to be really focused, that you're going to be really intense, and that that's a little scary or a lot scary.

And I'm going to use all of that fear to cause you to bust it. And any time you get ready to go out to eat, you go, no, I'm working around with no money and a bank and three kids. I've got to get this stupid debt paid off. Any time you get ready to talk about a vacation, you're like, no, you've got to be kidding me. I'm going to take a weekend trip. No, you've got to be kidding me i'm going to take a weekend trip no you got to be kidding me and all of a sudden you're you're you kind of start walking with a swagger about this debt thing rather than being in this constant financial hangover and so that's

why this is working um or at least it's my perception as to why it's working for tens of millions of people that we've walked with through this process. Yes, I understand it's scary. Yes, I understand over the long period of time it's unwise. But let's think about this. You've got $80,000 in debt, a student loan, and a car. You make $140,000 a year. There is no reason in the world you shouldn't be debt-free in 18 months.

But that means you're living on beans and rice. That means your broke friends are thinking you've joined a cult. Your mother-in-law is going to think you need counseling. All this stuff, because you're going to be game on, baby, and you've got the blinders on and you quit caring about what other people think. And that's what moves the needle. It's not some kind of gyration or I'm going to make this comfortable and I'm going to do this the easy way. And it's just I'm not making fun of you. I'm just telling you those are the things that are rattling in your head because they rattle in my head when I think about these things.

So and I teach it. So I get it. But don't do it. One thousand dollars. Baby step one. Baby step two is list your debts smallest to largest. Pay minimum payments like your hair is on fire on everything but the little one. And attack the little one running as if you're running for your freaking life because you are.

Right now, Sally Mae and General Motors owns your butt. And I want you to go buy your butt back. Get this stuff paid off man get your life back and that's you know that kind of that ah the thing i'm putting in my voice that i'm transferring in my spirit to you right now i'm speaking that that spirit of determination over you this visceral feeling and there's a whole lot more to that in getting out of debt than there is trying to figure out an angle or a math thing, and I'm always trying to figure out an angle or a math thing because I'm a math guy,

but there's no shortcut to any place that's worth going, and bust it. That's what I would tell you to do. It's a great question, though, as a new listener, and thank you for asking it, and thank you for letting me step up on my preach box for a minute there and preach because it's good for all of us to be reminded what is happening here on this show and the people that are actually doing the things that we talk about on this show

and what's happening folks is is that we discovered 25 years ago after i was doing financial counseling i would sit down with a couple and that that's all we did was financial counseling. I'd sit down with a couple that was almost bankrupt. I would lay out a full game plan in detail that all the math worked on where they could pay their bills. They could turn it around. In three months, they'd be current. I would work out a deal with their mortgage company.

I'd work out a deal with their car company, and they were behind. They would pay a payment and a half, get caught up, and it was all laid out, and they would go home, and three weeks later they would surrender and file bankruptcy. It was all laid out. I did all the math work. Why didn't they do it? Because I sent them home from that meeting with the same habit patterns that they came into that meeting with,

and I tried to fix habit patterns with math. And it was really frustrating for me because I'm a math guy and I want to fix everything with math and it's not a math problem. If we were doing math people, we wouldn't have credit card debt. This is not a math problem. I mean, who in their right freaking mind would ever walk into a payday lender at 840% interest if you were doing math it's not a math problem this is i'm scared crapless i can't even breathe i don't know

what i'm gonna do and so i wander into this place and i get ripped off by one of these payday lenders i open up a credit card and i buy a pizza on a credit card and i'm 19 years old in college and i come out of college with as much credit card debt as I do student loan debt. This is normal. Personal finance, we discovered, is not a math problem. It's 80% behavior. It's 20% head knowledge. You already know what to do, and you have to change your behaviors and change your habits, and when you do, your life will change.

Be not conformed to this world, Romans says. Romans 12, 2. One of my faves. Don't be normal. Normal sucks. Be not conformed to this world. But be transformed. Transformed! How are you transformed? The renewing of

your mind. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Are high health care costs getting you down? Are you confused trying to navigate your options? Do you wish you could find an affordable affordable biblical solution to your health care costs? Based on New Testament principles, Christian Health Care Ministries, or CHM, helps Christian families, churches, and ministries join together as the body of Christ to share their major health care costs. Christian Health Care Ministries is the original health cost-sharing ministry, a Better Business Bureau-accred organization, CHM members share to pay each other's medical bills. It's not insurance. It's Christians financially and spiritually

supporting each other. It's what Christian Healthcare Ministries has done for over 35 years, and our members have shared over $2.5 billion in medical bills. To learn more, visit chministries.org. That's chministries.org. Christian Healthcare Ministries is a proud sponsor of Dave Ramsey Live Events. chministries.org. Well, Christmas is upon us. Thank you for joining us, America. We are glad you are here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Christmas is here, and so generosity is in the season. I love Christmas.

And sometimes the smallest gift, the smallest act of kindness can make a huge impact on your friends, your family, and even your community. Generous giving really is the most fun you can have with money. And around here we call it the generosity effect because when you help someone whether it's the holidays or not you've been down on your luck i have you can call it down on a lot of things but it's just been down you know just kicked just rolling around can't breathe, and about that time, someone shows up, and there's some money involved, and things get a little bit better for that moment. You can breathe a little bit.

Once that happens to you, you can't help but do that for others. And when you do that for someone else, guess what? They do it for someone else, and they do it for someone else, and they do it for someone else guess what they do it for someone else and they do it for someone else and they do it for someone else and when a butterfly flaps his wings 4 000 miles away a hurricane starts two years later the generosity effect is the same way you never know 18 people later who got given a million dollars because you gave somebody a 20 that was down on their luck and hurting. It's very real. So be sure and check out the blog post this month.

I did a little writing on that subject. It's one of my favorite subjects, and there's a great story in there about Secret Santa from Kansas City. It was a buddy of mine that passed away a few years ago. It's an incredible story, and you ought to look it up on the blog and read about it. So we're asking you guys to send in your generosity stories and we're going to make you a part of our christmas season show times we want to hear some generosity stories sprinkled throughout the weeks heading in to christmas the days heading into christmas email us at dave on air at

daveramsey.com put generosity effect or generosity in the subject line uh kelly or madison will get back to you and get you guys scheduled to be on the air that's dave on air at dave ramsey.com and robert did just that he's in utah with a generosity story hey robert tell us what's up hey dave how's it going better than i deserve sir how can i help well that's great well i was just calling in with the generosity story as you had asked um okay so yeah i was back in 2017 it was about this time a year and i was my wife and i had been married for just under a year and i was still in school and working two part-time jobs just to pay the bills and get everything done. And it was just a really, really hard time.

I had problems popping up one after the other and just a whole bunch of stuff going on. It was just a difficult time. And not too long after that, after Thanksgiving of 2017, just one evening that I happened to be at home working on homework, somebody rang our doorbell. And I thought, that's odd. We're not expecting anyone. So I went down the stairs and opened the door and didn't see anyone. It was already dark outside, so I didn't know what to think. But I looked down, and there was just this jar sitting on our doorstep. And it was just full to the brim of just coins and bills and just a jar of money that I had no explanation from who it came. And it was accompanied by a book

that is entitled Christmas Jars. It was written by Jason F. Wright. It's a novel. And I had no idea who left it. I took it inside and showed my wife and she's like, what? Anyway, just the initial impact, you hold the jar up and just awe and just rotate it and just the question of who could have left this. And I just had no idea. Very cool. And so we counted it. I mean, it ended up being less than like 200 bucks or something like that. But we used that money to get some essentials. I needed a new coat and things like that.

We put that money to good use. Yeah. There's a lot of money in that situation. Well, yeah, for our circumstances. Yeah. For sure. Well, and, for our circumstances, for sure. Well, and what more is at the time I was working at a restaurant, and so over the course of the next year I brought home a lot of extra change and tips and things like that, and we decided that we were going to pay it forward.

And so we used that same jar, and come 2018 of, um, who we could give it to. And, and our thoughts came to a single woman that we knew that was in our church group that wasn't too far away. She, um, was going through a hard time and her card given out on her. And we thought she could really use that even though it wasn't much. So, so we went ahead and took that jar and, um, left it on her doorstep. And, uh, I rang her doorbell and ran back to my car and we just sat in the driver's seat in the, or just me and my wife, we just sat in the car and watched her come to the door. Her son got to the door first. He was about four or five at a time, and he, of course, called out to Mom.

We left a book with it, too, because that book, it's worth a read. But anyway, yeah, she was overcome with emotion. It was evident that she was overcome with emotion. She also, it was evident that she was going through a hard time as well. Yeah. That's fun. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, that pay it forward idea.

Very cool. Very cool. And isn't it amazing how just bothering to set a jar with a couple hundred bucks with a story around it caused you guys to completely, I mean, it changed your outlook on things. And then you turn around and do the same exact thing back, and that's powerful, dude. That's powerful. I love it.

Yeah. And what's more is we're planning on doing it again this year. I haven't been working in the same restaurant now. I've since graduated and got a much more stable position in a larger company and all that stuff. So I don't have as much pocket change as I once did. But nonetheless, I do have some spare change here and then that we're planning on going ahead and doing the same next year. And we're thinking about. Yeah, nobody would be mad if you filled it up with paper money i think that's the truth i love it brother well done well done good story

robert thank you for sharing that man very cool yeah you never know you never know open phones at triple eight eight two five five two5225. Danielle is in Colorado. Hi, Danielle. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Hey, what's up? I have a question. I'm about to inherit between $200,000 and $300,000 from a corporation that my grandparents had when they were alive and they passed away.

We're in baby step four, five, and six. We have our emergency fund and no debt. I'm only concerned with the fact that I only have about $10,000 in retirement. Should I throw part of this into like a Roth and then put the rest on our house, or what should I go with it? How much do you owe on your home? 350. Okay. Are you putting 15% of my for retirement? Yes. I just switched jobs and started that. Okay. Both of you, are you married or single? Yes, I am married. He does too. Okay, good. And what's your household income? About 120,000. And how old are you? I'm 34 and my husband is 39. Okay. And so for 30 years, you save 15% of $120,000, you're going to have six or $8 million if you never do anything else other than that. That's if you never get a raise and you never increase the amount you put into

investments, both of which are absurd assumptions. Okay? So, no, you don't need to put in towards retirement. You need to pay off your house. That's the baby step you're on. Okay. Baby step four is 15% of your income going into retirement. Five is kids' college.

Is kids' college taken care of? They're all going into the military. Okay. Kids' college is taken care of. I've got one already in and two more going. Okay. Perfect. Then let's put it on the house.

Let's get the house paid off as quickly as possible. Once the home is paid off, you can increase your percentages because going to retirement and wealth building, because you'll be 100% debt-free. You'll be on baby step seven at that point. So, hey, thanks for the call. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. Thank you. Teaching you to live on less than you make, a concept Congress can't grasp. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

That's 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Storm and Carla are with us in Texas. Hey, guys, how are you? Hey, how are you? Hi there. Awesome, awesome. I see on my screen you're debt-free. How much have you paid off?

$146,799.22. Love it. How long did this take? 16 months. Woo! And your range of income during this time? $109,000 up to $136,000, back down to $131,000. Okay, cool.

What do you guys do for a living? I am a history professor at a community college. And I'm in HR at the university. Ah, very cool. Good. And so you must have sold something large or had a large chunk of cash in the bank when you started this, because you didn't make $147,000 in 16 months. How'd you do this? Exactly. The first phase was a $7,000 loan on my Chevy, and that was straight from savings. The second phase for the student loans was about half non-retirement assets and about half income and budgeting. Okay, so you had non-retirement assets of about $60,000 or $70,000. Yep.

Perfect. Okay, how long have you guys been married? Just past eight years, actually. Okay, cool. So what happened 16 months ago that made you drain these accounts and get game on? Well, it started, our pastor at the time was offering FPU at church, and I kind of blew it off because we didn't have credit card debt, and I thought that's what it was about. But then I got curious, and I came around and realized that it's not just about that, and I started listening to the podcast every day. Oh, there we go. So what kind of debt was the 147 000 well 7 114 dollars and 53 cents was my chevy and 139 682 dollars and 69 cents was student loans wow so you kick old sally may out

and you got chevy clear I love it. Very good. Eight years of marriage. Have you ever been debt-free during the eight years? No. Well, I was just finishing graduate school when we met. So when we married, I was carrying all the student debt right into the marriage. Okay. And it's just been hanging around for eight years.

Yeah. Feels good to give Sally May her eviction papers, doesn't it? Yes. That loan payment every month and looking at that balance was very depressing. Yeah. So I'm guessing you have an extra lesson in addition to history to teach your students. Absolutely. In fact, I just graded an essay from a student today talking about how they were hoping college would be debt-free in their lifetime. And I wrote, I sure hope so. Debt, well, oh, you mean free for them to go to school?

However that works. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not free because somebody's going to pay for it, but... Yeah. Which would probably be like me since I'm a taxpayer. Yeah. Well, it's not free because somebody's going to pay for it, which would probably be like me since I'm a taxpayer. Okay.

Yeah. Well, I'm just being selfish there and thinking that I'm glad to see the loans be paid off. Yeah, absolutely. Amen. Congratulations, guys. Very proud of you. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? I think the first thing is that you have to look at things differently because I didn't think the student loans could ever be paid off. But the more I

listened to the podcast, the more I realized, even though it was a big number, it was really possible. And then once we made up our minds that it was possible, we had to budget and tell the money where to go and work together and stay in communication all the time. How emotional was it to clean out $70,000 worth of investments and throw at this? It was painful and frightening. Yeah. Yeah, you had to really believe it was going to work, didn't you? Yeah. At first, I just couldn't see a way out. It just seemed like too big of a mountain. But to her point, once we started squeezing dollars, we're finding 12 cents, 13 cents here, saving on some product and pushing off some discretionary income, going out to a restaurant, et cetera. So once we started going, it seemed like there was ways to squeeze a dollar

that we could have never thought of. And we learned so much along the process that I think by the end, it was starting to get easier. And you could, of course, see the debt snowball, see the progress. But yeah, for me, the biggest challenge was just believing that we could actually knock that debt out. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool, guys. Well, congratulations. We're very, very proud of you. We got a copy of Chris Hogan's book, Everyday Millionaires, for you. That is the next chapter in your story, become millionaires and be able to pay for your kiddos' school and cash. That'll be an awesome place to be, man. Way to way to go guys so proud of you all right storm and carla

in texas 147 000 paid off in 16 months partially from savings and partially from cash flow in it making 109 to 136 to 131 count it down let's hear a debt-free scream three two one we're dead free yeah that's how it's done you guys i'm so proud of you congratulations wonderful wonderful stuff so if you missed it you can catch it online anthony o'neill was on good morning america this morning with his number one best-selling book debt-free degree talking about the best way to go to school debt-free is to choose a school that actually fix fits your budget to which all of america says huh i never thought of that so like don't go to a place you can't afford. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what people do, right? And so don't buy a car if you don't have the cash to pay for it. Don't go on a trip if you don't have the cash to pay for it. And don't go to a college you can't pay cash for. By the way, the average in-state college is $10,000 a year tuition. That's $833 a month. You can make twice that delivering pizza four nights a week. You can work your way through state school and live in your mama's basement.

We're talking about education here. We're not talking about your college experience. I'm not financing your beer pong. I'm tired of it. So you can get a degree in fraternity. That is not my sorority. That is not my goal. And I'm the taxpayer that's footing the bill for the billions of dollars

that are in default on student loan debt because people finance their college experience. And let's go ahead and just start educating this next generation. All of you together on three, one, two, three, don't buy it if you can't pay for it. And that includes education. And by the way, there's not anything free. When it comes from the government, it is not free. The government produces nothing. They're a parasite.

They're a tick on the butt of productive people. They're sucking the blood out of us. That's what the government is. And so there is nothing, nothing produced in Washington except divisive politics, and they produce that by the bushel load. But there's nothing produced in government. Government is a consumption. And so if government provides you fruit with something,

it's because they took it from one of us to give it to you. It is not free. I'm walking around in Stockholm, Sweden, on this wonderful tour, seeing these beautiful things, and our tour guide is so proud of Sweden, and she's like, you know, we have free health care here, and we have free this, and you go to university free here in Sweden, and I'm like, free? I mean, I listened to it for about an hour and i finally my hillbilly just came out i'm like free what's your tax rate darling i'm sorry sir what's your income tax rate 63 percent sir and i'm like where the crap did you get free out of that but this is what socialism does it causes your brain

cells to die this is the dave ramsey show Kyra's in Colorado. Hi, Kyra. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Thank you. Thanks for talking to me. Sure. What's up? Yeah, so I've had it moments. My husband and I both work for the government, and we were severely affected by the shutdown earlier this year for the 35 days.

We were stupid and got a loan to cover basic expenses, And we paid it back immediately when we got paid, but that was our moment of knowing that we couldn't keep doing this. We have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and we were just tired of it. So, um, we're looking down the barrel again, uh, because both of us work for the government of, you know, it possibly shutting down around the same time in December, just before Christmas. And my question is, we've already put down $1,000 in savings, and we're putting down everything we can towards debt. I'm wondering if we should have something a little more on the side of savings just

in case we are shut down again and we don't have another paycheck for over a month or however long we're shut down for. So I guess I missed the news story. I wasn't aware there was a pending shutdown in December. A federal government shutdown again? So basically what happened is in September they passed a continuing resolution until November of last week, which they passed, and it's due to be renewed December 20th. Last year it was December 21st, and we don't know for sure if there's going to be a shutdown. Our hope is that it doesn't happen again. We're just wanting to prepare. Oh, I understand that part.

I'm just saying the point I'm making is that if there was a political battle going on that would point towards a shutdown, which is where one party is using the operation of the federal government as leverage to get some kind of legislation through on the other party, that's usually what causes a shutdown. Because otherwise, they just keep borrowing into oblivion and keep paying everybody, right? Right, correct. Which is what the continuing resolutions are.

And if there was a pending shutdown, there would be a lot of news stories about it. I understand. But, I mean, it's fairly common practice for these continuing resolutions to just be updated unless there's some kind of brouhaha in the air. And I haven't heard of one. And so I'm thinking the probability of a shutdown this Christmas season is considerably different than last Christmas season. Would you agree with that? Yes, sir.

Okay. So, no, the number of times the federal government has shut down and not paid you guys on time is so few uh you have a fresh wound i understand that it makes you a wee bit sensitive about the subject yeah we just started the debt-free snowball good and we just don't want to do anything that would put us back in good i don't i don't want you to either and if you know if the news heats up and you feel like there's a right now i would say it's uh you know i'm just sticking a wet finger in the air i really don't know what i'm talking about but i'm gauging the amount of news stories out there on this which are almost zero okay and so um based on that i'm going to

say there's less than a five percent chance of a shutdown that the continuing resolution is probably just going to sail right through. If that changes and you start seeing news stories everywhere and you're instead of a 95-5 ratio on percentage chance of shutdown, you end up going, hey, this is 50-50, then I would just stop my baby step two and build up cash until the storm blows over. But, no, I do not change the baby steps because you're in a volatile job situation. I stop working the baby steps until you get past a volatile job situation. And so, like, if someone calls me up similarly, Kyra, and says, hey, I think I'm going to get laid off at work. I always try to figure out what that means. Does that mean that there's a 50-50 chance because they've laid off a bunch of other people all around you, every desk around you is empty, or is there a 90% chance you're

going to get laid off? If so, then stop your baby steps and build up cash. But I just have a vague worry because three years ago some other people got laid off. No, you don't stop it then that's just a vague worry that's the difference in a probability of something happening and worrying but again i appreciate you got a fresh wound from last year and i appreciate you don't want to take a step back and all of that but if you really think there's a 50 50 chance of the government shutting down on the 20th based on information you have that i don't, then you would stop your baby steps and pile up cash.

But if there's a 5% chance, no, you rock on. There's a 5% chance anybody gets laid off on any day. You know, that's just life. And so you just keep working through all of that. Hey, thanks for the call. We appreciate you joining us. And I'm glad you're making progress. Way to go.

Michael's with us in Alabama. Hey, Michael, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. the call we appreciate you joining us and i'm glad you're making progress way to go michael's with us in alabama hey michael welcome to the dave ramsey show hi dave thanks for taking my call my pleasure how can i help well i have a question about a mammoth amount of student loans that i have that are continuing to grow at a rate at a ridiculous rate How big is the mammoth? 200,000. Good Lord. Are you a doctor or a lawyer? I'm a doctor, but not the kind that you want.

I'm a doctor of ministry. You got an MDiv for 200K? No, no, this is a D-min. It's the MDiv is the middle one. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm the D-min. It's the, M-div is the middle one. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm the D-min. Okay. So here's where I'm at. Why?

I'm at baby step two, and I don't make a whole lot of money because I'm in ministry. So here's my question. I know the stories of the public loans forgiveness program. I know how, in general, it hasn't worked. Here's the big problem. I can't afford the minimum payment. Right now, my minimum payment based on the income is zero anyway, because I've got kids and other stuff. So while I'm making headway and paying this stuff off, here's what I was thinking. And I wanted your thoughts. So when I get to that, because I'm planning on having everything, my car and all this other stuff, paid off somewhere around April, May, possibly faster depending on some other things.

But when I get to this, I thought, well, I can't make the minimum payment anyway because the minimum payment is $1,500, and if I paid that, it would be $130. How much are you paying on your car and stuff? Pardon? How much are you paying on these other and stuff? Pardon? How much are you paying on these other debts? The car is $267. How much are you paying on it to pay it off by April? Oh, so in February, I referee as a side job volleyball,

and that gets me roughly an extra $350 a week. How much do you owe on your car? About $6,000. And how are you paying that off by April? Some of it's going to be tax returns. Some of it's going to be this volleyball money. And what is your household income? I make $33,000 a year.

And then some of it's also my income. Okay. All right. I make $33,000 a year, and then some of it's also my income. Okay. All right. So my question was— Pastor, you've made choices that don't allow you to stay in this career. Well, I thought about that. So what I'm putting at is— 88% of pastors in North America are bivocational, and you're getting ready to be.

I understand that. So that's the other side of it i do i plan on working on something else too but here is where my question was and that's what i was thinking if i continued with this debt forgiveness program that probably won't work it It has not worked. Ninety-three people have gotten it out of 30,000. It's not even logical to discuss. Well, what I was trying to ask was if when I get to that portion, if I saved up whatever I could, because if they did forgive it, it still becomes taxable income, so I have a tax liability debt. And then if they didn't forgive it, I threw whatever I saved at it and still tackled it that way.

I was kind of wanting your ideas of which option. Yeah, I wouldn't even have that in my discussion because it's just not relevant. I mean, you've got better chance of going to Vegas and winning money or buying a lotto ticket. The ratios are so bad on this actually working. And so this is a situation where you have a tremendous student loan debt and you've got to make some adjustments to your career path

so that your income can go up while you do ministry. I'm not suggesting God didn't call you to the ministry. I'm suggesting that the borrower is slave to the lender and it's tough to serve two masters. I got you. That's where you are. So you've got to adjust lender, and it's tough to serve two masters. I got you. That's where you are. So you've got to adjust some things, and you've got to get your income up and throw it all at these student loans. And let all the young pastors know not to go $200,000 in debt to get a doctorate in ministry to make $33,000 a year.

God did not call you to do that. He called you to ministry, maybe, but he didn't call you to do that. So I'm so sorry you're in this situation. It's heartbreaking. I'm so sorry. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, guys, it's Blake Thompson, senior executive producer for The Dave Ramsey Show.

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