The Ramsey Show - App - Should I Stay in a Job I Hate so We Can Pay Off Debt? (Hour 2)

Episode Date: September 17, 2021

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, host of the Ken Coleman Show, is my co-host, where he talks about finding your dream career, your dream job,

and helping you get on a clear path to execute and cause that to happen. So you've got career questions, you've got money and life questions, he and I are here to help you. The phone number, 888 two five five two two five kyle is in grand rapids michigan hey kyle how are you hey dave thanks for taking my call i appreciate everything you guys do and the opportunity to discuss my situation sure what's up so i honestly get into it i'm married with three young children i'm in debt i hate my job i'm married with three young children. I'm in debt. I hate my job.

I'm having a problem with drinking, and I'm just feeling uninspired, broken, and exhausted. I've been working the debt, but I have a ways to go, and I can't seem to get out of my own way when it comes to figuring out my career and getting my health together, if you guys need a little bit more backstory, I can give it to you. But basically, I would just like some advice on how to proceed because I've been struggling emotionally since before my kids were born. And I'm still not happy with where I am, which I feel bad saying, but that's where I'm at. Sure. I want you to be as just brief but very descriptive on you keep getting in your own way as it relates to figuring out what you want to do with your career. What does that mean? So I feel like I just keep hitting these mental roadblocks. So I'll sober up and stay focused for a week, two weeks at a time,

and then something will happen that will trigger me emotionally to want to drink or to do something that's not related to the career I want to have. And a lot of times I don't know if it's circumstantial or if I'm getting in my own way. In my heart of hearts, I feel like I can fix it and that I'm just getting in my own way. But at the same time, I'm in the grind of early parenthood and I'm dealing with a lot of pressure from the career I currently have and I'm the breadwinner. I get you. Most of our annual income comes from my job. So I feel like most of my focus has to go there.

Sure. It's family, and it's getting in the way of who I am. Sure. So, Kyle, I'm hearing lots of things. So the emotional stuff, you need to get some professional help on that. I'll talk about that in just a moment. But you've had some ideas. Based on what I'm hearing, you have some ideas. You may have one clear idea that if I could snap my fingers and put you in it on Monday morning,

knowing you couldn't fail, I got a sense that you have an idea or two. Am I right or am I wrong on what you would do? Yeah, you're right. What is it? And listen, here's what I want you to do for the next couple seconds. I don't want you to think. Don't think. Don't qualify.

I want you to just answer my questions. Agreed? Agreed. Here we go. What is it? Tell me what it is. What would you do tomorrow if you knew you couldn't fail? I'm apprehensive saying it because it seems true, but honestly, I'd like to get into game development. Game development. Now, you did what I told you not to do, but that's okay because we got the answer. You want to be a

developer for video games, yes or no? Yes. Okay. Do we got the answer. You want to be a developer for video games, yes or no? Yes. Okay. Do you have the baseline technical talent that if you were trained properly, that you know that you could develop effectively game technology, yes or no? I would need additional training. I don't think so. So the answer is yes. You have the core talent.

If you were trained and educated, you could do it. Do you believe that? If I was trained, yes. Okay, all right. So, hey, you got to say, for one second, Kyle, I want you to throw off all this self-doubt that's hanging on you like a giant winter coat. Throw it off. You can't even answer a question about yourself because of the doubt. And I know there's a lot going on, and I get that.

But, brother, I just want you to get real for a moment. No, wait a second. Do I have the technical talent? Now, let me ask you this. Why? just want you to get real for a moment no wait a second do i have the technical talent now let me ask you this why i want you to give me a short answer why would you want to develop for video games what's the why behind that because i like creating experiences there you go always had a knack for tech technical stuff and always had a knack or always had an interest in experiences yes yes okay and you're and you're a gamer that's right so here's the deal you think because you're a dad of three small kids you guys have got some debt and you're dealing with some emotional stuff which is driving you to drink you're thinking i'll never get there

is that about right yeah i mean but that's not true but that's not true so let me let me let me challenge you all right you need to understand that there is a path so you know what you want to do. If you could just make it happen, you know what you want to do. So you're in that get clear stage. Now it's all about getting qualified. So you have to actually do the homework and not get stuck in the bottle and doubt and insecurity and fear about what it's going to look like and go, what would it take? What has to be true for me to be qualified to actually apply for jobs like that and someone hire me? Is it starting out in another development role and getting development experience somewhere

else and then crossing over the video game industry? There's lots of different paths, brother. I'm telling you. One thing I want you to do is call Bethel Tech. Betheltech.net. They're a partner of the Ken Coleman Show, and they take adults from zero technology experience, zero, to working in the technology industry in nine months, less than 15 grand. You're not there yet.

You've got to get your debt paid off. Dave Ramsey, Ramsey Solutions, we can help you with that. But you've got to believe that you can get there. And then I think you've got to get healthy. Dave, I think he's got to get healthy, and he's got to get on the debt elimination plan, and we put the dream on hold. It doesn't mean it's gone. It doesn't mean we'll never get healthy. Dave, I think he's got to get healthy and he's got to get on the debt elimination plan and we put the dream on hold. Doesn't mean it's gone. Doesn't mean we'll never get there. But you've got to get

out of debt and you've got to get healthy emotionally to where you believe that you do have what it takes and that you have a unique contribution so that you're not leaning towards the bottle. So are you guys involved in church at all

no not we are not how old are you i'm 34 okay all right when i was a young dad um i wasn't either and i wandered in the back door one it changed my whole life because i got men and women in my life that would walk beside me as I changed some of the habits I needed to change to be successful. I like that idea, and I haven't asked my wife about that because we're yearning for that sense of community, and I feel like just the overall message and sense of community,

whether we're religious or not, would be helpful. Exactly. So we almost went to church for that reason alone. That's okay. That won't make anybody mad, even the people at the church. Just go over there and make some friends with good people. And good people will walk beside you. And once they're good enough friends to reach over and pop you on the back of the head if you're drinking too much, that's a really good friend.

Right? You need some buddies in your life man you need a band of brothers that love you enough to knock a knot on your noggin i agree with that and you can pick it up there and you wouldn't hurt to step into a 12-step program wouldn't hurt to sit down with a a good counselor and uh because you, what it amounts to is you're stuck, and the way you get unstuck is you get new information and new inspiration. Yes, sir. And that helps you then build a vision for your life that Ken was laying out for you that you can believe in. And when you believe in that vision, then you can run through walls to get there,

and you can set down the things that are causing you to stumble and um we've all got them man i ain't different than you me and ken if you count up the stupid butt stuff between the two of us that we've done you couldn't fill out you could fill a room with it so you but you got to set down the stuff that's killing you and pick up the stuff that gives you the energy. And that's goal setting and inspiration, information, good people in your life, good community in your life. So, yeah, that's my assignment for you. And then walk with Ken over at KenColeman.com,

and he'll get you the job. This is The Ramsey Show. Work doesn't have to suck. There's a reason you can't shake the feeling you were meant for more than just another J-O-B. 61% of people aren't even engaged at work, let alone doing work they love. That's why Ken Coleman, America's career coach and national best-selling author, wrote his new book, From Paycheck to Purpose,

The Clear Path to Doing Work You Love, and it's available for pre-order right now. If you're looking to change jobs, get hired, or trying to figure out the work you were uniquely made to do, you need this book. Ken walks you through the proven stages that landed him his dream job and thousands of others. Plus, if you pre-order from paycheck to purpose today,

you'll receive our Get Hired bonus pack, valued at over $100 for free. It includes the audio book, e-book, resume, templates, the Get Hired digital pack, valued at over $100 for free. It includes the audio book, e-book, resume, templates, the Get Hired digital course, and more. Pre-order from paycheck to purpose at Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Our question of the day comes from Blinds.com. They have a 100% satisfaction guarantee. It means even if you mismeasure or you pick the wrong color, I've done these things,

they'll remake your window blinds for free. This is a great company. You get free samples, free shipping, and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more. Blinds.com. Use the promo code RAMSY to get the best deal. Today's question comes from Sam in Texas. I'm a school teacher, and my wife and I are on Baby Step 2. I'm very dissatisfied with my teaching environment, and I'm looking to get out of the profession.

I feel called to go into ministry, but I am not willing to go into more debt to pay for it. Which is more important, paying off debt or getting out of a toxic environment? Well, Sam, that's a false choice. You can get out of debt and get out of baby step two and keep walking the baby steps and also get out of a toxic environment. But the way you do it is the key. So I think sometimes when people feel as though they are in a toxic environment, and toxic environment is one of those general terms here.

We have to look at, am I in an abusive situation where I am emotionally very, very unhealthy and unstable or physically? Outside of that, it's one of those situations when you are in debt and you are walking out the baby steps, we have to change that mindset sometimes and say, okay, until I can get out of this toxic teaching environment into a better teaching environment or into a day job that will allow me to get out of debt and then save up the money for any qualification necessary to move into ministry, then I'm going to put up with it. And so it's not an either or. Continue to pay off debt. Do not, for any reason, put off the baby steps because you're not happy in your work. What we want to look at is, why am I unhappy?

And I have many teachers, Dave, that will call the Ken Coleman Show, and when I dig into it, we find that it's not necessarily the teaching, it's the particular environment. So if we can get in a healthier environment, great. But until you're able to get qualified for ministry, you've got to work the day job. You've got to work the baby steps. And then ministry is still going to be there. The ability to get qualified to do ministry will still be there. And even though your heart longs to get there, there are times where we do what we have to do to be able to do what we want to do later. It's not an either-or. I'd be willing to bet that part of Sam's calling to ministry is teaching.

I absolutely agree. He's going to teach in a church environment or a ministry environment. He's not burnt out on teaching at all. No. He's just looking for a different way to be a teacher. The paperwork, the bureaucracy, the lack of control in the classroom. I hear this all the time. The helicopter in the classroom i hear this the helicopter parents oh cray cray parents you're driving teachers out of the classroom because you're bozos wacky curriculum is another lack of discipline in the schools

dadgum inmates are running the asylum that's right that's exactly teachers want to leave i don't blame you i don't blame you in those situations i get it um so here's what you do uh the emotion has built up you can read it between the lines it's seeping in here the word choice the uh the the the word order everything in this says i'm i'm really over this yeah ready to walk yeah and you got you got to hold back on that and say i'm going to do this in a wise and mature way unless you have some kind of an ethical situation that you're calling toxic um i i i will wager to say what you have is a highly unpleasant environment. I'm not sure toxic is not.

It's an overused word these days. Everything's toxic to something somebody doesn't like anymore. Right. I don't like it. That bubble gum's toxic. You know, I don't like this. I don't like anything. It's toxic.

It's toxic. And that's the second time you and I have heard in two weeks toxic work environment when I question whether the actual way is really toxic rather than just highly unpleasant. That's right. Well, he says right here, I'm very dissatisfied with my teaching environment. Yeah. And then it's toxic later. But the teaching environment.

I mean, your boss is a jerk. That could be a lot of factors. I don't know if I call that toxic. No, it's not. It's undesirable. Yes. And am I going to quit? Dadgum right.

Yeah, eventually. As soon as I can find a place to go. That's right. We want to step into something else. So it might be a two-step procedure. You might step into a different teaching role so you can finish up getting out of debt and work on your ministry. Creds, whatever credentials are required in your particular denomination. Some denominations don't have required credentials.

You just have to declare yourself, I are a preacher. And then you are one. And that's – other denominations are very strict about a doctorate and other things in theology. Obviously, training is never a bad thing, theology included, but it is not table stakes unless you've chosen a particular denomination that says it is. That's correct. I know I've got friends of mine that went into ministry, Dave. They went into a non-pastoral where they didn't have to have the certain MDiv or whatever it would be for preaching and ordained and all that.

But they got in, and they were on a church staff. And then the church actually paid for some of their education. Churches will do that. And it's not a guarantee. It's not something you walk around asking for. But there are ways to get there. And I think what happens when someone is really unhappy, you start to go. Is this a case where you use the proximity principle, too?

Yeah, absolutely. While you're teaching, you go ahead and start being an irreplaceable lay person at a local congregation to the point they hire you in? That's right. Hey, I'll start teaching a new class. I'll teach two new classes. I know four different church administrators that are in the administration side of ministry that came out of corporate America, and the first thing they did before they became full-time staff members

was they were virtually full-time lay volunteers handling all this stuff. And the church goes, we can't do it without these guys. And then they go, look, I'm going to tell Target or whoever, bye-bye. I'm not going to work for them anymore. I'm going to tell Target or whoever, bye-bye. I'm not going to work for them anymore. I'm going to go work for the church. And so they made a transition that way by getting in proximity. That's exactly right. And that's how we build that bridge to where we move the undesirable work environment

and we replace it. By the way, we never miss a paycheck. We never miss a debt snowball payment. That's how you do it. But sometimes it's this stress. I don't think I can do it anymore. Yes, you can. It may be that you need to fix the environment.

But it's easier to do it if you can see the end of the tunnel. No question. You go, I'm going to take these three steps, and then I'll be out of here, versus I feel trapped here. That's exactly right. Trapped here adds stress. That's right. And in this situation, he's going, I've got to go to school to get into ministry. No, not necessarily.

Not to necessarily get in and make those connections. Then the additional schooling, well, we're going to do that when we can cash flow it. Yeah, good stuff. Linda's in Anaheim, California. Hi, Linda. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hello, Mr. Ramsey. Thank you so much for taking my call.

It is a true honor to speak with you today. You too. I am happy to report I am an everyday Nelly Nair effect of March of this year. Way to go. I'm very happy to share that with you. I'm six payments away from finishing off the mortgage and it's a true blessing. Wow. Yes, thank you, thank you. The reason why I'm calling is I need some advice. I am soon parting ways with an ex-business partner. And we have an LLC. We have an investment property in a different state that I propose to sell.

She wishes to buy me out. So my question is, what is the fair? I want to be, you know, first and foremost, fair. What is the, how do I calculate my share of this? Do you – you know, is it the appraised value minus the loan divided by two? No. Or is it – You wouldn't net that.

No. You would be the appraised value minus about 15% for expenses if you sold it through a real estate agent and you'd have closing costs and other things. And so I would take 85% of appraisal minus the loan divided by two. Okay. That's what I figured. I wanted to be fair on that. That's very fair.

Because that's about all you would net. By the way, 15% might be a little rich on expenses, but you're also not going to get asking price usually. In this market, you might get more than asking price, depending on what it is. But most real estate deals don't sell for asking price over the scope of your life. So, like, I've got that actually in our estate plan. If one of our kids wants to buy, we've got a bunch of real estate. If one of the kids wants to buy one of the other ones out, and they want to sell out, they need to do it at 85% of appraisal. Because that covers all the expenses.

And what if, you know, if we turned it into money, that's all it would be. By the time you negotiate down and you pay some expenses to sell it, that's all the net money is going to be there. So that's the calculation I use. This is the Ramsey Show. Thank you. Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Johnny and Holly are with us from Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. Says on my screen, you guys are debt-free. Congratulations.

Thank you. Well done. How much have you paid off? Around $59,000. $59,000. How long did this take? 15 months. 15 months.

And your range of income during that time? $108,000. Okay, cool. 15 months. 15 months. And your range of income during that time? 108. Okay, cool. So, Camp Lejeune, are you in the military? Yes, sir. Thank you for your service. What do you do? I do supply chain management.

Ah, very nice. Great career field. Good for you. Good. Fun, fun, fun. All right, what kind of debt was this 59 000 bucks well let's just say um mainly credit cards um we owed a little bit like 2500 on one of our cars um and then some to student loans but it was mainly a shopping problem on my end

oh yeah i'm gonna come right out with it. I'm just going to start with this. All right, just dive right in here. So tell me what happened. Well, I just remember one evening looking over at my husband. We have a really good marriage. We're a really good fit. But I just looked over at him, and it was the same scene I'd seen at the end of the month every month, just his head in his hands, looking over our finances, shaking his head like, how are we living month to month just his head in his hands looking over our finances shaking his head like how are we you know living month to month on this income

and i really thought it was going to be the end of our marriage yeah eventually not i mean we were still in a good place but eventually it would it led to our demise saw the beginning of the end yeah absolutely yeah wow so what'd you do you said hey johnny we got to fix this and he went no kidding Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. So what'd you do? You said, hey, Johnny, we got to fix this. And he went, no kidding. Yeah. So I had read your book, The Total Money Makeover, in 2015.

I was kind of doing day-ish, but then Holly got on board, and we set a budget, and we stick with the budget and that helped a lot yeah that's everything right there okay so once you decide holly says she's going to go along with it and then you decide we're going to do the whole program boom you start getting traction right yes 15 months i'm looking at this pink sheet with all these names on here that I don't like. Wells Fargo, Chase, MBNA, Navient. These are good people to have out of your life, aren't they? Absolutely. Yeah.

And I like the big lines drawn through them on this. It's showing on the YouTube channel here. I'm seeing it. That was my favorite part. Johnny got to press submit on all the online stuff. I just like to cross off the debts as we went. That sat on a refrigerator for the whole world to see anybody that came in our house that was up favorite part. Johnny got to press submit on all the online stuff. I just like to cross off the debts as we went. That sat on a refrigerator for the whole world to see anybody that came in our house that was up on display. We had no shame at that point.

Yeah. The only shame is if it stays there. We're getting rid of it. Yeah. And that's game on. Game on. Which one of those, when you paid them off, you said, I hate you people. I'm so glad you're gone.

I'll let Johnny answer that. I would say it was the student loans, Dave. Being in the military, TA paid for my tuition, but I still got student loans somehow. And it was a blessing to get, you know, the student loans out of my life. Amen. Amen. Well, congratulations. I'm so proud of you guys.

Thank you. So well done. How old are you two? 36. Okay. Okay. congratulations i'm so proud of you guys so well done how old are you two 36 okay okay so in the last 15 months holly you've reshaped your whole brain around money and you guys have joined into your marriage in a completely different way y'all talk about that for a minute well i would just say um we both worked um i was working up until recently. We're about to move here. So I would just check our bank account, you know, and if, like, I don't know, I had a set number. If there was $700 in there, it was like, okay, I can still shop.

Once it got under $700, I just asked Johnny, like, hey, how are we doing for money? And then once we started with this Dave Ramsey, I knew every single bill coming out. I actually had some things auto-paid on my credit card that I didn't even know i'd been paying for for the last two years that was eye-opening wow what was that sorry what what was that where were the two auto things i had like this karaoke app that i was paying for oh my god it was like 25 a month that i had signed up when we got our daughters a karaoke machine 25 a month for unused karaoke. Yes. That's the ultimate of insults.

Yes. Oh, man. I love it. Congratulations, you guys. This is a great story. I'm so proud of y'all. Thank you. There's a sense here that not only has your marriage been impacted, but that you did some

growing up, and you just stepped into a whole nother level of adulthood. Do you feel that way? Absolutely. And we've been very forward with sharing our story. We've always put our numbers out there. Johnny will tell everyone that stands still in front of him for more than three seconds about you and how you've changed his life. So, you know, if you're around Johnny Hang, you've heard about his financial wins, and he wants everybody he comes in contact with to win, too. Well, thank you, Johnny, and thank you again for your service. It's a pretty cool story, Ken. It really is.

When we looked at that list on the YouTube channel, we got to see the debt snowball right there on your sheet of paper. That's some serious payments that you guys paid off in 15 months. That's getting with it. I'd love to hear some of the sacrifices. What did gazelle and tents actually look like in your home? Well, a lot of it, oh, goodness, eating out. No restaurants.

That was huge. Actually, keeping track of our food budget. That was another really big one. And just, you know, when we made our plan every month, we stuck to it. You know, EveryDollar app was amazing for helping keep us on track. We didn't do cash. We did everything with our debit card and using the EveryDollar app. Wow. So this is a situation where you didn't get any more income. The income didn't increase. You just really budgeted and made it work. Yes. Yes.

That's inspiring. You know, Johnny being in the military, I was working for a non-for-profit that I absolutely loved. I loved my job. And neither one of us wanted to take, you know, more time away from our kids to do other, you know, other side hustles or anything like that. So it was just mainly just behavior changes. So the military moving you now, you said you're getting ready to move again. Yeah. Yes. Do you know where you're going yet said you're getting ready to move again? Yeah. Yes.

Do you know where you're going yet? We're going to Boston. Ah, okay. Another adventure. Well, well done, you guys. I'm so proud of you. We got a copy of Rachel Cruz's book for you. I love your, or no, I try to say it here.

Know yourself, know your money. As if I didn't write the foreword. Okay, so that's it. And so you hang on. We'll have Kelly pick up and get that that's it and so uh you hang on we'll have kelly pick up and get that to you if she hadn't already we'll take good care of you you guys are great inspiration well done thank you all right it's johnny and holly in camp lejeune north carolina 59 000 paid off in 15 months making 108 000 a8,000 a year. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Three, two, one, we're debt-free. Yeah. Yeah. Well done. Oh, that's amazing. Beautifully done. Beautifully done. Beautifully done. That's an inspiring thing right there.

For a lot of you spouses out there listening to this right now, if you are the holly in that relationship, whether you're the husband or the wife, but you're the one that your spouse does the money, and you've looked over like she looked over and saw Johnny's head in his hands so many times, shaking his head, knowing, I don't know how we're going to do this. The gift she gave herself, the gift she gave him, the gift she gave to her kid's future, when she looked over and saw that and said, I value this family and its future more than I do my selfish right to spend like I'm in Congress.

I'm going to work with my husband, my wife, and get this stuff done. That gift, when she raised her chin and did that, she stepped into a whole different level of emotional maturity, spiritual maturity than she had ever seen before, and it's blessed her family. No question. It's just another reminder that you do what you have to do so you can do what you want to do. And sometimes we've got to say no to the want and do the right thing. And in this case, it was her relationship.

And not just the financial piece of it, but just the legacy. You think of the, you know, we saw the picture of those two little beautiful girls. I mean, they're aware of all this. You know, these kids, you know, Rachel has said many times. They can feel the tension in the room. More is caught than taught. And they saw a transformation go on. Those kids are picking that stuff up.

So great legacy, great legacy for those two. It's a wonderful story of transformation. You see, what happens is it's not really about the money. No. It's about the person in your mirror. And it transforms you. You are changing. And then guess what?

Magically, the money changes. Go figure. This is the Ramsey Show. Thank you. Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. When it comes to making big money or life moves like buying a home or getting married or having a baby, it's likely the last thing on your mind to think about insurance but you need the right insurance coverage i know big changes are overwhelming but what could be even more overwhelming is finding yourself in a situation where you and your family are in the hole because you did not have the right

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How are you doing today? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I have a What Would Dave Do question for you. Our family is on baby step number seven. We paid off our home late last year. Excellent. And the plan was to buy an investment property this year. But as you know, the real estate market is crazy hot right now,

and people are paying thousands of dollars over asking. So we are wondering if we should continue investing in mutual funds for now until the market cools down, or should we jump onto the bandwagon now because the prices are only going to go up for the next few years? Yeah. I do not buy real estate unless I buy it at a good deal. And a good deal means considerably less than market value. Period. Yeah.

I just don't. There are no good deals right now. Well, that's not quite true, but it's really close to true. It's very, very difficult, nigh impossible to find one. And so, no, I would not write a check for more than an appraisal to buy a piece of real estate as an investment, for sure. So what I would end up doing, were I in your shoes, is I would just park that money. And I park mine in just an S&P 500 fund, an index fund. It's going to follow the market exactly.

Whatever the stock market does is what it's going to do. And then when I decide to buy a piece of real estate, I just use the money in that fund. That's my little real estate savings fund. Yeah. Now, and so what that does is it doesn't prohibit you from continuing to look. You just don't buy unless you found something. And we all know it's going to be very difficult to find something right now.

It's not like you're going to find something every week at a good deal. It's very difficult. So if you want to just set yourself on the sidelines, because it's too dead gum much work to find a deal right now, I don't blame you. That's fine. And when the market softens up a little, that's fine. Or if somebody just put out a feeler with several real estate agents,

look, if you get somebody that's in trouble and you run across something, I can write a check and we can close in 24 hours. If you find that somebody's in a pinch and they need to get out, but I will not be doing that for anything except for a bargain. Okay. And just, you know, put your couple real estate agents on notice and they can kind of be watching for you. And if they see something, you know, a lot of them don't necessarily – they see deals they don't have the money to buy.

And so if they got somebody like you in their back pocket, they can pick up the phone and call you. And that's a way to not be completely sidelined. I mean, you don't have to just declare the market completely impossible. You can declare it very difficult. Right. And that's really what it is. I'm not out shopping for real estate right now for two reasons. One is the declare it very difficult. Right. And that's really what it is. I'm not out shopping for real estate right now for two reasons. One is the market's too difficult.

It's not worth the effort. Two is we're in the process of developing the piece of ground that Ramsey's on, and we're getting ready to break ground on a conference center that's $35 million, and that's going to take all of my real estate investment money. So I can't be out buying other property right now. Yeah, these pieces of concrete I'm sticking on this piece of land out here are pretty serious. So, but that's, you know, so in other words, we're developing property, but for business purposes as well as real estate investment purposes.

Hayden is with us. Hayden's in Lynchburg, Virginia, no less. Hey, Hayden, how are you? Good, Dave Lynchburg, Virginia, no less. Hey, Hayden, how are you? Good, Dave. How are you doing? Great. How can Ken and I help? So I'm 15 years old, and, you know, it's about time for me just to start considering, you know, what I can do with my life. And I feel like I'm being called into ministry, but I don't want to end up going to school and having a bunch of college debt and not being able to afford to live comfortably. So I'm wondering if I should maybe go into a trade.

I'm good at working with my hands, so go into a trade, save the money, and then go to school for ministry after I have the money saved up. Yeah, certainly not a bad plan, Hayden. But at 15, I'm just curious how much time you spent with people that are in ministry. Have you talked to other men that are in ministry in different ministry positions? Not really. Of course, I'm very involved in church. I love going, but I haven't really spent a lot of time speaking to anybody in ministry. Good.

Let me ask you this. Do you have a vision right now, and how clear is it? What does that ministry position look like? I know you're only 15, but fast forward 10 years. What are you doing? Well, I would like to be out of college and be either associate pastor or youth pastor at a church. Sure. So here's what I want you to do.

You're only 15, and that's great that you have a real sense of calling or at least a tugging towards ministry. So what you want to do is if you go to church, and I'm assuming you do, you want to spend some time with coffee with your youth pastor. Have him connect you with other pastors in the area and really get an understanding of what all is involved day to day. And I think one of two things is going to happen.

As you spend more time really talking about what does a life in ministry look like? And you can ask questions, if they'll tell you, about what a salary range looks like. Your heart is going to either say yes or no to that. But if you are feeling this tug towards ministry and the only thing that's concerning you is money, then that's something that you're going to have to really look at because I'm just going

to tell you, moving into ministry for money, that's never going to satisfy you. And you're 15, and that's okay. So I love that you're thinking about it. But that's what I want you to do. Really see what your heart's telling you when you get really clear on what a full-time ministry position consists of. And I'm talking to ask these pastors, what's your worst day like? What's the hardest part about ministry? What do you love the most about ministry?

You need to know that. Now, let me address your money question. I absolutely have no problem. If you can make good money in the trades and you come out of high school and I'd start looking for some jobs in the summer working for the trades they need help like crazy and a sharp 15 year old who can do the job can make good money but i love that plan of going in and using your talent in the trades to make some really good money to pay for college and seminary i absolutely love that plan because you can uh cash flow your way through it yeah i, I already have about $3,500 in an investment account in mutual funds. So, you know, I'm trying to build that up, you know, hopefully over the summer.

Good. Like you said, I have some connections to people who own their own construction company. So maybe getting out there, throwing a bunch of money into that mutual fund and hopefully building that up. Yeah, absolutely. And, again, I'm fine with a gap year. Between the next couple years and a gap year, how much money can you make in the trades? You can make really, really good money. I love that. And you can actually do this. You don't have to go into debt at all. So don't

assume at 15, well, I don't want to go into debt. Great. But make that a conviction statement, not a, well, I really don't want to have to. You do not have to go into debt to go to school to go into ministry i do not know what the percentage of youth pastors in america that have uh theological degrees seminary degrees are but i would guess it to be well below 50 that's correct yeah four-year degree that would i would guess um again that would depend on your denominational background and which area, which kind of church you want to go into and so forth and how you're serving. And, you know, so there's nothing to say. And by the way, the average church size in America is 85. And the typical pastor in America is bivocational,

meaning they have a trade job and they're ministering on the weekends. So you can actually move in that direction too, if you wanted to, as a possible way to flesh this out. And over time, you're going to be able to make the determination whether this is a call to ministry or just you are in love with Jesus and you want to help people meet him. And by the way, they can be the same thing and they can be done in a whole lot of different settings. So whether it's a call to full-time vocational ministry, may or may not be there. You'll see as you get a little older.

I'm glad that you're being called that way. This is The Ramsey Show. This is James Childs, producer of The Ramsey Show. Did you know The Ramsey Show is one of the most popular podcasts in the world? Subscribe or follow today wherever you listen to podcasts.