The Ramsey Show - App - Should We Borrow Money To Renovate Our House? (Hour 1)

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

from Ramsey Network it's the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth to work that they love and create amazing relationships I'm your host today Jade Warshaw your other host today is Ken Coleman in the house. We're going to take calls all afternoon long. We're going to talk about your life, your money, your career. If you want to chime in, you can give us a call. The number is 888-825-5225, and we'll chop it up with you. All right, let's go straight to the phone lines where we've got Violet from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

What's going on, Violet? A lot. Tell us. Definitely have a couple of questions for you. So my family and I live in southwest Michigan. We lost our townhouse completely leveled to a tornado on May 7th. We were renting it. Goodness. We lost everything in it. We did have renter's insurance. However, it only covered about half of our belongings. So fast forward a couple of months, we have moved into a smaller place that is more expensive. And here's my line of questioning here. So we have, my husband and I have a total combined student loan debt of $150,000. Okay. We have a car that we owe $12,000 on. Our other car is paid off.

And we have total credit card debt of $10,000. We were steadily starting to pay everything off before this happened. We filed bankruptcy in 2020. We have a 100% on-time payment history since then. However, we had considered before the tornado moving to Florida because we have job offers and have had several down there where we would double our income. We're in kind of a job desert where we're at right now. I have a Master of Business Administration. I'm one class away from Master of Science and I have 20 years in hospitality management.

My husband has a master in theology and he is an armed guard for a national or international company right now. However, the question is because we have now, we did not send any credit cards through the tornado and all of the, all the issues there. However, we had drained our savings,

which was only about $8,000 to begin with. I bet you did, yeah. So our question is, do we next year when the lease is up where we're at, go ahead and move forward and move away to highly boost our income but now go into more debt? Unfortunately, we are only going to be able this year to put away half of what it's gonna cost to move what would cause you to go in what would cause you to go into debt if you move to Florida

in a year the move in general the U-Haul the first month security deposit what's the rule what's what's the cost what's the estimated cost of moving the estimated cost of moving about $12,000. We gave ourselves a couple thousand dollar leeway. Yeah, that's about right. Okay. So, okay. I want to go back a second. I'm not sure I understand why you're waiting a year to take these jobs that have been offered to you that double your income. I'm wondering too. Yeah. The only reason is because we find a leaf here again,

because everything was such a mess and we don't want to, in order to break this leaf, it would cost us almost $5,000. Yeah. Yeah. And there, I agree with Ken, but I also feel like you're in storm mode,

like you're in crisis mode. It could add a lot more confusion to make that move immediately. It may, I got to dig some more. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I don't want to leave this alone. How are these jobs going to still be available for you a year from now? That doesn't sound normal. It's not that the exact jobs would be available. It's just that after two years of job hunting here and heavily researching the job market there, we know that if we continue to apply within six months of

leaving, yeah, we would make a lot more money. All right. I'm sorry. I'm a dog on a bone here. Keep going, Ken. I'm going somewhere with this. When were these two jobs offered to you in the hubs? How long ago? About two months ago. Have you officially turned them down? Is that thing still open or they've moved on? We have been in contact with them as of right now. They have moved on. However, his company and the school system that I was going to work for, as well as the college I was going to teach for, have left the door open for me, because they will always need teachers, and they will always need colleges. All right. I don't want to get bogged down here, Jade, and I don't want to play armchair quarterback Violet.

However, I think it's kind of important. I would have taken the two opportunities two months ago, and I would have negotiated, and I would have found a way to get out of the lease. I would never stay somewhere for a year in a job market like you've described because there are no guarantees. There's an old phrase called a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. And it simply means if you've got the opportunity to get two birds over here, but I've got one bird in my hand, take the one in your hand. It's old school, I know.

But there's some real truth to that. And again, I don't want to play armchair quarterback, but if those two jobs were open right now, Jade, where I was going with this is, I'll take the $5,000 hit on the lease, if I can't negotiate it better than that, in order to double my salary, which allows me to immediately do what you're going to coach her to do now on the snowball.

So that's, I take double the money because I still come out ahead. I'm not going to stay in Southwest Michigan with no job prospects in order to finish my lease out. I'm sorry. I don't think the, and to be clear, my only, and for the most part, can I agree 100% with you? My only thought was not because of the lease, but just because something really traumatic happened. And to be clear, my only, and for the most part, can I agree 100% with you? My only thought was not because of the lease, but just because something really traumatic happened.

I was trying to buy you a little bit of time to just get your bearings. I'll double the income. I'll help you with your bearings. I don't know what you disagree with, but I would still go back to it. That was the initial thought. That was the initial thought. That was the initial thought. Because we also have a 17-year-old pretty autistic son that has kind of gone into a really bad stupor through this. So the initial thought, I guess on my part, which I am regretting at this point, my initial thought, because we had loss of use through insurance. So they were paying for our hotels, and they would have paid for the hotels in Florida as well while we searched for an apartment.

So that's my biggest regret. But I literally was like, oh, my gosh, I can't do that now on the back of this tornado. Well, we don't think you need to go into debt. Well, you know, Jade, I don't think you've got to go into debt here i don't come up with the 12 000 to move and well that's the other part of it um where i was a little bit hesitant and please understand me my disagreement with ken wasn't on getting the job it was on how do we do it like do you need more time to save up so because i mean it does cost to move my husband and i moved cross country you know two years ago and it was over twelve was over $12,000. And I remember being like, just shook because of that. And if you don't have any cash, yeah, what is your other option? So it will take you time to save up that

money. So that's kind of what, that was my only hesitancy is I didn't want you to rush into this and end up making bad decisions that you will literally, that will cost you because of it. I think what you did discover, which is cost you because of it. I think what you did discover, which is a good thing and can unpack this, is that your job is worth more in another state, which is great to know. And there hopefully will be other opportunities. And if it's not Florida, maybe there's another state that you can be looking at where you're making more money. I would discuss a moving. I would discuss, here's what I know about this economy. If an organization wants you, you could go to them and say, look, here's what we've estimated our moving cost. This is our situation. Would you be willing to, in lieu of maybe future bonuses or an advance?

Yeah. There are creative ways to come up with the moving money, too. That's all I was getting at. But sometimes they don't give you the money until after you get there. Oh, it's fine. There's just a lot there. We got to get out of this place. We do got to get out of this place. I want you guys out of Michigan.

I want you somewhere where you're making more money, where you have peace. Michigan feels like a traumatic place for you. There was a tornado. There was a bankruptcy. And I think there's a better place for you around the corner. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, you guys. Health insurance costs are only moving one way, and that way isn't down.

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sticking to a monthly budget? I'm going to talk about budgets all the time because they work. They really are the key to getting a hold of your money, and every dollar makes it simple to plan your spending, track your expenses, and save for what matters to you most. It's all in an easy to use app and it fits into your busy lifestyle and it fits into your pocket, which is what I love. It's on your phone. You can have it the same login. Your husband has it or your accountability partner has it and you can just go into it at any point. You could be at the checkout at the grocery store and say, how much can I spend? I can't remember. You just go

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And others are saying, yeah, that's a good thing. But anyway, yeah. Okay. So we're just going to go back and forth. Tell us more about the renovation, the cost, and what it would do specifically. So that is kind of, it's an unknown, the whole thing. It's kind of a big house, and we don't know the costs, actually.

So the second home, do you own that home, or who owns it? Yes, we own that home, too, free and clear. Okay, and it's one level. Well, yeah, we can live on one level there. It actually has a second level, but yeah, but we can live on one level. And so what they're saying is our son-in-law and daughter, they're saying they'll renovate that first level quickly and we can move into there and then they'll finish the top level more slowly. Why would they finish the top level if nobody's going to live up there? Exactly. Because we have lots of grandkids. We would like to come and visit.

What's, can I, sorry, I want to make sure we get all the questions out. What's the difference between you living on one level in that house versus you living on one level in your current house? Because our current house is 825 square feet and we have a mattress in the middle of the living room floor. Okay, what would happen? I'm just spitballing ideas here. Ken, jump in at any point. What would happen if the house you're currently in is too small, you're not going to do much with it. What would happen if you sold it and moved into the other house temporarily and once you sold the other house and you got the money, then you give it to your kids to renovate.

And maybe you live, you know, you figure out, maybe you're uncomfortable for a little while, but you make this work. And that way you're using cash instead of a HELOC? Sounds like it's what you wanted to do. Because, well, because the second house is a wreck. You can't move into it right now. Oh, okay.

That was my next. So is someone living in it now and renting? No, nobody's living in it. So it's just you own it free and clear and it's just sitting there decaying. That's right. Uh-huh. Then what would happen? I'm going to throw out a third idea.

What would happen if you sold both of these houses and moved in and pocketed some of the cash and then moved into a house that was already ready and had everything you needed and wanted well that that's the other option that we're looking at that's the one i like that one that's the one i this makes no sense for you to go into any kind of debt for this you just just have so many other better options. I'd get rid of the rec house. I'd sell it for a song and just let somebody else come in and take it. And you don't need to make a bunch of money on it. And I would slowly renovate the current house. I'd change the current house around if I was going to do that. I mean, maybe the upstairs is

for the grandkids and you rework the, it's a small house. I get it. You know what? Now that I think about it. I'd sell both. I think Jade's right. I'd sell both houses and stay where you are currently. Nobody cares that you have a bed in the living room.

This is a transition period because of a health event. I like Jade's idea. I'm with Jade. Sell both houses. Come up with a better living situation that fits him. And then you guys are still in great financial shape. And it's a better timeline for him. Because if you guys, you know, paying someone to renovate the downstairs and then the upstairs,

like that could be like a nightmare. A long time. I love that plan. Okay. You called us, Susan. That's what we think. All right. Thank you for the call.

Did she say some of the kids were trying to talk her out of it yeah yeah we were that was the smart ones we get to say that because they're not our kids that's right that's hilarious let's go right to the phone lines elise virginia beach virginia what's going on elise hi thanks for taking my call you're're welcome. How can we help quickly? So we just started the Dave Ramsey plan, and we called our credit card that has the most debt. It's $26,000. The interest rate is $14.9.

We're military, so we banquet maybe federal. We asked them if they could lower the interest rate or do anything to help us. And they offered us a program where there's no repercussions in any kind of way, but for a year, they'll freeze the card and bring it down to 3.9. Great. So our question is, is should we, you know, not do the snowball method and for that year just throw everything that we can at that one card? What other debt do you have? What other debt do you have? So we are full-time RVers, and I know how Dave feels about that.

But we have two personal loans. What are the amounts? RV. So we have one for $900, another for $900, another credit card that's $5,000, another credit card that's $7,600, a van $7,100, a truck is $57,000,

and then the credit card that we're talking about right now is 26,000. And then our RV is 71,000. Oh my gosh. How much is the RV worth? It's probably worth like 55 now. Oh gosh. And the truck? You got a truck and a van? Yes. Okay. Let me answer your first question first. I probably wouldn't do this. I really think that you guys need to, I mean, you could probably knock out the two personal loans pretty quickly. And then the credit cards, you've got the 5,000, the 7, thousand i i think that i'd rather just go in order because there is momentum that happens when you do that you're going to feel the feeling of paying off one and moving on to the next and you know if you get to the chance if if you can if you look up and it's a year later ask him call him back and say hey listen i've banked with you guys forever you guys offered me this deal but i'm this debt snowball. Will you refund the amount of interest that accrued over

this past year? Here was the offer that I was given. See if you can get that in writing. And that way, get the deal in writing. And even if you don't take it now, bring it back to them in a year and say, hey, they offered this, but I was doing my debt snowball. Here's what we've paid off. Will you refund the difference? I bet you they will. But the bigger problem here that I'm seeing is this truck in this RV. It's going down in value and you have so much money tied up in it. I would rather you be in a rental. I would rather you be in an apartment, anything, but these depreciating assets that are just eating you alive.

71,000, 57,000. The more time that goes, the more upside down you're going to be. So I would be looking for a way to get out of this lickety split. What do you think, Ken? Mow money. Start working. Start selling everything. We've got to get some more money quickly to get some equity back in that RV and sell it

instantly. Instantly. This is The Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, so I was born and raised in Texas, and I love the myth of the lone cowboy. You know, the guy who doesn't need anyone or anything. It's a fun story, and it's a lie.

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Ken, tell me something good. Tell you something good. Tell the good people. Okay. There's a lot I could tell you. I think one thing I would tell you is despite all this political uncertainty and interest rates staying elevated, we still sit at a very good employment market. So as we talk about money, making more money, one of the good things, despite all the uncertainty and inflation being kind of stubborn and things, despite all the uncertainty and inflation being

kind of stubborn and things costing more, we still are in a healthy job market. So that is some good news specifically related to people who go, all right, I'm not happy in my work, or you know what, I'd like to make more money so that I can get out of the baby steps faster. We still are in a really healthy market to make money. And when we got to go to work, we've heard Papa Dave say that for many, many decades, we're still in a good place there, despite some of the more challenging parts of our economy. So that's some good news. I was reading the job report and the numbers this morning. So that's top of mind when you said, give me some good news. Well, what about people who are saying, like, everything going on with the election is so crazy, maybe I should wait

to see where things land before I make a transition. I wouldn't wait. Although I will tell you that Bank of America economists came out with a report today. I was reading it this morning. The great resignation, which you remember, we kind of date that 2021 to first part sort of fade at the end of 2022, the first part of 2023, people, the mean of increase in salary people were getting when they left to a new company was 20% bump, which is, you know, that's a bump. That's a bump. It is now dropped back to 10% bump and that's pre-2019 levels. So I do, to answer your question very specifically, I wouldn't wait. If it's a good opportunity, I'd go because the days of the big bump and I'm just going to get that job opportunity and the great resignation, we saw the musical chairs, those days are over. If you feel

it's the right move, go. But it can't be, I'm just going for the 10% bump now. I want you looking five, seven, and 10 years down the road saying, or asking yourself rather, if I make this professional move for more money now, does it set me up for more money later? That's the key. I want you making moves that have long-term potential, not just short-term potential. So that's what I would say on that. Yeah. I like it. Very good. All right. I love it, Ken. Well, I got to be ready, James. You never never know when you're gonna get a pop quiz from Jade here that's tell me something good segment I did my homework this morning you did you had something good to

offer I'm telling you or I was about ready to go the dog ate it I did put you on the spot but you always thank you as a guy who always has something good to say and have something meaningful and helpful to say. There we go. Coach Ken, you know you always got something. I appreciate that. All right, let's go to the phone lines. Angela in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is on the line. Philadelphia Freedom, what's going on, Angela?

Hi, thanks for having me on. So I'm a fairly new small business owner, been in business just under three years and drowning in debt and sales aren't coming in. Yeah. What's your business? I sell maintenance products online, e-commerce business. Okay. What kind of maintenance? So floor cleaners, machines, that sort of thing.

We ship all over the U.S. and into Canada. And you're in your... I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Go ahead. No, it's a business I worked for for a number of years before purchasing it. Oh, so you purchased it from the person you worked for? Yes. What'd you purchase it for? Oh.

I guess what I'm trying to see is how how did you ever break even and then you met like i want to know more no no never broke even um been operating at a loss since the beginning what would you pay for it um 267 and was it owner financing or did you go get a loan no i went and got a loan. Shoot. Oh, boy. So what kind of debt are you in? A lot.

I've got probably over about $500 right now. And that's just all the business? Yeah, and that includes vendors and all that kind of stuff. And that includes the initial loan? Yeah. Has revenue gone down over the three years since you've taken ownership? Tremendously this year. So first year I did one, two. Last year I did just under a million at $9.89 and this year I've only

generated $350,000. What do you attribute that to? Partly because of the lack of cash to keep products in stock. And then, you know, interest rates, my SBA loan wasn't fixed. And so that has been hurting me over the past couple of years. And it's just been, so I'm just at a point where I'm like, all right, I don't know if it's time to like cut my losses. It could be. Are you a sole proprietor, like, excuse me, solopreneur, or do you have a team? I do have staff.

I do have three part-timers. Have you had to let anybody go? Last year I did. Last year I was able to cut my expenses by almost $80,000, but that includes me not paying myself. By the way, just real quick, just a quick learning moment for our entire audience here, Jade, and sorry, Angela, to do this at your expense, but you are Exhibit A. This is exactly when the Fed raises interest rates. This is how it leads to higher unemployment, which then cools inflation. I want to point out, people go, I'm not saying the Fed was right or wrong. I'm just saying this is Economics 101 right here on the phone.

This has affected Angela. Those interest rates have crushed you and have made it very, very expensive to do business, which again is why we believe in a cash business. If you don't have that debt, then Angela has cash. So back to the question at hand, how do you turn this around, Angela, in theory? Without going further into debt. Just on paper, like if you were going to turn it around what would it take um yeah and that's the hard part without I don't want to go into any

further debt um you know it's I've been calling on you know existing customers because they say you know it's cheaper to keep a customer than go out and get a new one, right? But then when I don't have the product here. That's what I'm wondering. That's why I'm asking that question. I'm not trying to be theoretical. I'm actually, because we've got to wrestle with the bankruptcy thing, Jade, and it's like at what point do we have to say it's time to shut it down?

That's why I'm asking. I don't understand your business. Is there anything else that would allow us to, that's whatden and I need to know before we can fully answer this question. Is there any way conceptually that you could present to us on how you turn this thing around? Because you don't even have the cash to actually have the inventory to then actually turn it into sales is what we're hearing. Right, right. sales is what we're hearing right right so you're um i've been trying to sell i do have some stock just trying to sell that to then you know generate income to get the stuff that really really sells back in um how do you sell are you is it people visit your website or are you on amazon are you

on the other sites so they have to come directly to your where do you do the most business on your on your site or on amazon yeah on our site okay so maybe it's a traffic issue you're not getting enough people organically coming over to your site that's a that's part of it too there's a lot of competition you know that market has been um saturated with other and larger companies have come in you know and we're gonna run out of time we're gonna run out of time. We're going to run out of time. But here's what I think, because there was never it almost felt like you rode the wave from the previous owner. And then it just steadily went down. You never had a moment of prosperity on your own in many ways. And I hate to say it like that. But

there's something about this that that's not clicking for you. There's some missing pieces. And I don't want you to keep losing money on this. And at this rate, that's that's that that's not clicking for you there's some missing pieces and i don't want you to keep losing money on this and at this rate that's that's all that's going to happen i would love for you to get connected with our entree leadership um program because within that at some point you can get access to coaching and maybe somebody else can look at this or maybe you're looking for a business consultant to say hey here's what's wrong here's what we need to fix um but for all intents and purposes me listening to this i think at some point you're going to have to cut losses sell it figure out what you can sell it if you can sell it for something for something i would i would also agree with that i try to see what you

can sell before you go the full bankruptcy route yeah i don't think you keep going forward in this business model yeah absolutely oh that's the hard part. So sorry. You know. Oh, I hate that. I hate that for small business people like Angela. I know because she's on the hook for that money. Yeah. Either way.

Don't go into debt when you start your small business. Don't do it. Speed of cash. That's the way to do it. You're listening to The Ramsey Show. We'll be right back. All right. All right. You're listening to The Ramsey Show. Hey, thanks for listening. I'm Jade Warshaw. Next to me is Ken Coleman. I'm here to help you with your money. He's here to help you with your career. So if you have a question, you can give us a call.

This is a live show. You can call in. The number is 888-825-5225, and we'll hook you up. All right. Ramsey Show question of the day. All right. Today's question comes from Ryan in Colorado. Oh, boy, Jade. Take a deep breath on this. I need you to slow your pulse down as I read this.

I have a $350,000 HELOC loan on our house, which is worth $700,000. The first mortgage balance is $400,000 HELOC loan on our house, which is worth $700,000. The first mortgage balance is $400,000. I also have $40,000 in credit card debt and two vehicles that we owe nearly $100,000 on. Are you up to date on this right now? Okay. How's your blood pressure? You doing okay? It's high. Okay.

I also have a $30,000 loan against my 401k. I earn $175,000 a year. My wife is a stay-at-home mom. These debts are primarily the result of my attempts at stock market trading, where I chased losses, creating this financial disaster. This cycle of greed and poor decisions has not only affected my family, but also my mental health. I'm overwhelmed with guilt and feel like I have failed as a husband and a father. I am in desperate need of advice on how to manage and overcome this financial crisis.

Large asterisk here for Jade as she takes this on. This is an email. You can't go back and forth with this guy, but go ahead, take it away. I mean, no wonder he's feeling overwhelmed and no wonder he's feeling like he failed and no wonder his mental health is feeling affected. This is a big, big a big big big big big mess he doesn't tell us um over what period of time this happened all of this and i'd be interested to know because the truth can when i look at this i see a person with a gambling problem oh there's

no question this is a gambling problem and it was just in the form of stock uh-huh i think trading i'm gonna take a guess that it was a short amount of time because this feels desperate to rack up the 350 HELOC. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And then the loan against the 401k. It feels like he was like, I got to earn this back fast.

Yeah. The credit cards, I guarantee the credit cards are all for this. The HELOC is all for this, the 401k loan. And now the cars, that's kind of a separate lifestyle issue. Let's talk about the mental side of this first. Like I said, I think this is a guy with a gambling problem. If I'm you, I'm getting into Gamblers Anonymous. I'm getting into some support groups.

I'm getting on with BetterHelp. And I'm going to go into counseling, A, for me, and then I'm going to do a separate set of counseling with my spouse, right, because this is taking a toll on your entire family. And what a woman to stand by you at this point. Although she doesn't need to be standing by. She needs to be working. Yeah.

That's the next part. He's got a good income, but, you know, this is back to the baby steps, Jade. Yeah, we're back to be standing by. She needs to be working. Yeah. I mean, he's got a good income, but you know, this is back to the baby steps. Yeah. We're back to the baby steps. So that was the mental side. Let's talk about the money side, which is Ken is exactly right. Both of you guys need to be working. And at this point, you know, I'm assuming probably there's a stay at home mom situation here. And this is all hands on deck. There are certain times where that's just required and I'm sure the wife is like, heck no, I didn't do this, you know?

And there's probably part of her that's like, I don't, I had no part in this. I don't want to help clean this up. I don't want to sacrifice. And that could be her choice to make. But, you know, if they want to come out right side up on this, they're going to have to start working.

I'm clearing out these cars, $100,000 worth of cars. You guys are driving beaters, like less than $10,000 cars to get out of this. You know, I was just doing some math that I want America to catch up on. If you're new to the show, and a lot of you are, Jade and her husband Sam paid off half a million dollars. I just did the quick numbers. If we take out the actual first mortgage, we're still at $520 000 he's racked up it's a lot so you've actually done this i've done this you know what was your combined income do you mind telling us yeah sam yeah when we

started it was 30 000 when we started right then the next year it jumped it went up steadily with us working like crazy yeah so it was like 30,000 year one 50,000 year two you know 80,000 year three and we were moving moving up um what was the highest because i'm what i'm doing is i'm comparing it to where he is on a single income of 175 this is very doable is the point and i'm looking at a person who knows that it's doable this is very doable um there might be a situation where they've got to get out of this house. Right. And probably so. That's what I would do.

For more reasons than one, not just a financial reason, but you guys need a fresh start. Like you need a new start at life here. And so for that reason, I mean, you got $50,000 of equity here. That's your wiggle room for you to pay the realtors and get clear of this and get into, get in an apartment. I'd live in a box to get rid of that HELOC of 350. I think it was. And Ken Coleman, because a lot of people, you know, right now, I don't know when they bought this house. I don't know what the interest rate is. And there's a lot of talk about, well, you know, I rarely would tell somebody to sell their house in this market, especially if they had a two, two and a half percent interest rate or 3%. But in this case,

this is something that you burn down and begin again. Like in my mind, there's nothing to hang on to here. Every time he walks in that house, he's going to feel the weight of his mistakes. You know what I mean? And so there's a piece of that that is like, just start fresh. You've had way too many conversations in the kitchen. You've had way too many arguments with your wife in that bathroom. Like you need to start fresh. So I think that that's probably what I would do

to get some of this out of the way. And then once they clear the cars out, now they're looking at $70,000 of debt. He's making $175,000 in income. They can absolutely get right-sized. Right. But they got to change their behavior. And I'm glad that you brought up Ken Sam and I's journey

because I say all the time, sometimes I'm hard on people who call in. And sometimes people think that I go too hard in the paint. But the truth is there's a level of sacrifice that really is possible. Your experience. Yeah. And I tell people, I mean, you just asked a good question. And I'm like, income was such a level of sacrifice that really is possible experience yeah and i tell people i mean you just asked a good question and i'm like income was such a piece of it you know you have

to look at what you're willing to do to get right side up and a lot of people want the benefit on the other side but they don't want the work on the front end and i'm like listen you do what you have to do i tell people all the time sam and i I got roommates. We had roommates for a year. And I wouldn't recommend it. It's not fun, but if you want to get out of debt, you're saving. 100%. You weren't thinking ideal. You were thinking, let's get real and get out of this thing. How long did it take you? Seven and a half years. Seven and a half years. And what was the most amount of income you guys made in that season? The seventh year, we made $260,000.

Okay. So that's a pretty good size shovel, but it was not always that. It wasn't that. But here's the thing. There's part of this where it's kind of a biblical principle, right? When you're faithful with a little, God gives you more. Yeah. And that's what happened.

A lot of us, here's the thing. A lot of us think all I need is a big check. And if I get a big check, I promise I'll put it on the debt. You don't know that you'll do that. And so for us, there was this part of it that was like, hey, you know, the first five years of whittling away with this with a teaspoon, right? It's like, okay, every bit of extra money we got went to the debt. And even as our life, you would think like your lifestyle could increase as your income is increasing, but we had none of that. I mean, we didn't,

people know we sold all of our furniture. We slept on an air mattress. We didn't get a couch until. Well, I love that. I, you know what? I think I missed the point that you and Sam had another couple live with you for a year. Yeah. Where was that year? What? One, two, three, four, five, six, or seven. That was in 20, was in 20 2009 2010 no but what year in your seven year journey three so three years in you go and so i'm curious did that did those that that couple paying you rent did that cover your rent um no it cut the rent in half okay so that's a huge deal we each paid 650 okay so that saved you half it saved us half of the rent Which is masterful. It was masterful. And I mean, these are the things that you have to do, you know, and so sometimes it's

That would have been a great reality show. Because here you are sharing an apartment with another married couple. Yeah. They got two couples sharing an apartment. That's a great reality show. Yeah. For the purposes of getting out of debt. I mean, we got along.

There was no like crazy, you got along there was no like crazy you know there's no like fights or anything like that but I but you just share the kitchen share the fridge yeah you gotta share and it's like you come home and you're like what is that smell oh I'm roasting pork chops it's like oh yeah next time I was saying I gotta ask him for a couple stories I know he's got some fun stories on that because that's just not natural but it's but it was worth it but the point is you know you know, you're not going to, the chances of you opening up the mailbox and getting an envelope full of the money you need is few and far between.

You have to build up that trust with yourself that no matter what margin you have, you're going to put it towards the debt. And when you're faithful with a little bit, you can have more. And then when the more comes, you'll also put that to the debt, right? And so that's how this thing works. Hey, America needs to know this before we go to break. You had two bathrooms, right? During that time?

Yes. Okay. Two bathrooms, one upstairs and one downstairs. Not sharing a bathroom. There was going to be some follow-up questions had that been one. Listen, if that's what it takes. I get it. Whatever it takes.

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