The Ramsey Show - App - Should We Buy a House or Keep Renting? (Hour 1)

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life, win with your money, win in your work, and win in your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. It's your show, America. We're here to answer your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. It's your show, America. We're here to answer your questions. We're going to do it with some sass today because the sassiest co-host I have when I'm always privileged to co-host the radio show

is George Campbell. I've been called worse today, Ken, so thank you. Have you really? Yeah. Yeah, you got the snark. The snark and the sass. And so we have a lot of fun together. And George is going to kind of lead off on the money questions. If you've got anything related to work,

income, impact, feeling like you're getting passed over, what do I do? Entrepreneurial ideas, side hustle ideas, anything about that bigger shovel, which is how we refer to as a way to increase your income. I'm here to help with that as well so let's take those calls triple eight eight two five five two two five and uh coming up later in the show a fun uh a new thing that we're going to try george and i uh never been done before yeah it's going to be great it's going to have all of america talking might get a pulitzer prize for lucky that's in the wrong category okay pulitzer is just for books but thank you for being here Lincoln is up first in Orlando Florida Lincoln how can we help hey yeah my question is my wife and I were going to be first home first time home buyers but we're renting right now we're trying to save up that down payment

I want to buy now she wants to wait we have about eighty thousand dollars saved up. We have about $80,000 saved up, and we have about $50,000 in our 401k, and we save about $100,000 a year in net worth. So she wants to continue just to wait and just continue to build that nest egg, and I kind of want to jump into a house. So that's my question. What do we do? The great conundrum. So you guys have no debt, the emergency fund,

and there's this sort of discrepancy of should we be investing hard or should we be saving for this house? Exactly, yeah. Could you meet in the middle somewhere? Yeah, her middle is 50% of the house price that she's willing to buy, and I'm okay to do it now because I'm worried about house prices going up. So what's your total liquid down payment you have outside of emergency fund, non-retirement? $60,000. Okay. And what's the home price you're looking at? $300,000. And you've done the math on this to see, is this going to be about 25% of our take-home pay? Yeah, it'll be about 20%. Okay. And that's on a 15-year or 30?

15-year. Wow. Way to go. What's your household income? After tax, around $14,000 to $15,000 a month. Wonderful. Okay. So if you guys bought now, you're doing it the Ramsey way and doing it the smart way, what's stopping you guys from continuing to invest once you're in this house? Nothing. I mean, we would just pay it off. Our goal is to pay off our house in four years. So that would be the goal. But she just has a fear that, you know, houses have unknown costs. So she doesn't want to do it. Well, the unknown costs are known. I mean,

it's maintenance, repairs, get a sinking fund. You guys have the emergency fund. You're not going to have a $60,000 surprise repair if you do this the right way. You're going to get this thing inspected and appraised and all of that. And so I think a lot of this, there's a different fear happening here, and I don't know what's behind that for your wife. Because I felt like it was all about she wanted a 50% down payment. Did I hear that right?

Yeah. Which has nothing to do with the fear of unknown expenses. Yeah. Her parents bought when she was growing up, they were the house poor. There it is. Ding, ding,

ding. So she's thinking, so here's what you got to do. I think George, I think you have to sit down with your wife, Lincoln and go, okay, let's run the numbers based on where we are right now with a 20% down payment.

And let's look at those numbers. And I'm talking like the real numbers. Show her in the budget, the whole nine yards, show her the whole budget with this current situation. And then I think you run the same numbers on a 50% down payment. So it's 30% more down and how that's going to lower your price. And you put that in the budget. And then you go to what George is saying, Lincoln, with the knowns and go, okay, well, we're going to put aside this much anyway for house repairs

or we've got an emergency fund. I think she needs to see them side by side, George. There's one thing for him to go, I want to do this and I think it's fine. She's got such a deep-seated fear there. I think the only way to get her on board, I'm curious to know what you think, George. Lincoln, I want you to weigh in on this, is to show her those two budgets side by side, because it's not that big of a savings monthly. Am I right? Yes, I agree. And here's the thing, Lincoln, I'm thinking about. With the housing market going the way it's been, what she also needs to be thinking about is 50% a year from now

might be a really bigger chunk because that home value might go up. And you can look at home prices last three, four years. It has skyrocketed. And we know that history is going to show us home prices will continue to go up over time. And so it's going to be a moving target. And so we tell people the best time to buy a house is when you're financially ready. And you have checked every single box in the book

today, my friend. And so you have Georgia's stamp of approval that you're doing this the right way. You're going to aggressively pay it off. How old are you two? I'm 24 and she's 27. Goodness, you guys are rock stars. You're crushing it. Thank you. And if you walk her through, here's the worst case scenario. Okay, what is she really worried about? If you dig into it, have her answer that question. Say, what are the repairs you're worried about? Okay, we're going to get a good roof inspection.

This roof's going to last 10 years. All right, let's check the HVAC. All right, that's going to be 10 grand if we had to replace the HVAC. Those kinds of things, putting facts on paper, will help get rid of that sort of scarcity mentality that she's grappled with for a long time now. So I did a little research, George. That quickly?

This quickly. I like to do it. Now, this is a USA Today article. It's about two years old, but this is just a quick examination here, Lincoln. So we're going to go a lot deeper than this. But a quick search says that it might help to know that the average American spends $3,000 a year on home maintenance there we go now that's again let's let's let's an average it's an average spend less some more so Lincoln if you're armed with that kind of information and you sit down her and we go hey look here's the average and we can go get some more updated information

there get two or three different quotes but if you look at that number and you're able to show her that I think that would go a long way, don't you? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think she's fear of the unknown. And I'm a little afraid too, because when we do dive into those numbers and the details, I want to buy a smaller house and she wants to get a bigger one. So she's like, well, if we just save more, we can get a better house. And then, you know, that's a whole other conversation. Yeah, but you guys are young. Let me tell you what Stacey and I did. Stacey and I got what we thought was a fabulous little house for our first home.

Wasn't a great house. Wasn't even close to the dream house. And it was fine for what we needed at the time. It got us in there. We got some equity. We rolled that in. We moved to another state. Didn't get the dream house there.

Got a better house. And so you guys are young and that's going to take care of itself. I guess I just want to focus on what George and I have been telling you, which is you've got to do a better job at casting vision around how this move is not going to result in her greatest fear coming true. That's all this is. This is less about money. This is more about understanding your wife's fears, appreciating them, and answering them. Yeah. And think about it this way. You got a paid for house four years from now. Great. That $300,000 house is now a $400,000 house. We can now upgrade, maybe even in cash, four years from now. You guys are in your early 30s at that point. You're doing great, man.

And look, it's about $250 a month based on the average. And put that in your budget. Show her, hey, babe, we're going to put $250 a month away for home repairs. On top of the emergency fund. On top, yeah. So that's safety on safety. Yeah, you just have to address that. I think she's going to be ready to go.

But, hey, great young couple, George. Amazing. They're in great, great shape. Good stuff. All right, don't move. More. Amazing. They're in great shape. Good stuff. Alright, don't move. More of your calls coming up. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show where we help you win in your money, in your work, and in your relationships.

888-825-5225 is the phone number to jump in. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. 888-825-5225 is the phone number to jump in. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. 888-825-5225. So I had a meeting this morning, George, around our new event called Total Money Makeover Weekend. This is May 10 and 11. And in just one weekend, what we're going to do in this event is give you the crash course on everything we teach about money. So you're going to hear brand new content from all of us Ramsey personalities on budgeting, beating debt, investing, and making more money.

I just went over my talk today. We're going to give you the formula to become rich. You found the secret. Yeah. No, I didn't find it. I've studied it it does it involve work you does i'm less interested now i was really hoping for a short i understand it's not a tiktok video it's a talk but uh it's gonna be great arbitrage and airbnb or something you would think

but it does not involve any get rich quick scheme but it it will get you rich that's all i'm gonna say no schemes it's gonna be fun uh we'll do Q&As throughout the time. I also saw something that I don't want to give it away, but Jade and I are going to be doing something fun that was inspired by the Ramsey show. Really? Yeah. Yeah. The American people want more of this. I thought we were going to do our little

barbershop quartet. Me, you, Jade, and Deloney. I'm unaware of this, but I'm open. As long as I get to do the baritone part. Excuse me as I choke. Early bird tickets start at just $99, and they're going to go fast. We only have about 20, what is it, 2,500, 2,600 seats? 2,400 is what the event center holds here at Ramsey. Thank you for bailing me out.

2,400 seats. It's going to sell out, and it's a destination deal. I mean, you get to come to Nashville. I mean, come on. It's fantastic. $99 is the early bird ticket price if you want to come to Nashville. I mean, come on. It's fantastic. $99 is the early bird ticket price if you want to get the best deal on tickets. So get your tickets now at ramseysolutions.com slash events, ramseysolutions.com slash events. And in all seriousness,

because we have to talk about these things, but it's really going to be fun. I think it's going to be a fun day. If you've been to a Ramsey event, you know this is not a seminar, which sounds boring. This is something that you can bring your 17-year-old to or the 67-year-old to, and they're going to have a good time. I think that's true. I think that's true. And George is going to be doing balloon animals. I'll be out there twisting.

Before the event on Friday night. It's going to be a lot of fun. Inspired by a caller you and I took recently. One of our favorite calls all time. Kayla starts us off this segment in Minneapolis. Kayla, how can we help? Hi. Well, I kind of lost my job, and I'm a mom of four,

and I'm just trying. I lost it in July, and I'm trying to figure out how to. I'm starting to drain my accounts for mortgage and stuff. What happened? I was very fine. Well, they downsized. Yeah. What field are you in?

They downsized in July. Pardon? What field are you in? I was a CCR staff. I worked from home, actually. And I made very good money at doing that. What were you in? I was a CCR staff. I worked from home, actually, and I made very good money at doing it. What were you making? I was making about $40,000. What has kept you from replacing that $40,000 income between July and now? Oh, I've been trying. It's not easy. I'm all of, I'm out in the middle of nowhere.

There's like not very many jobs around where I'm at. Okay. And so that's what I'm starting. And I'm picking up all these little tiny jobs here and there, try to keep the mortgage paid. Uh-huh. But I'm running out of finances. How much money are you making right now? Give us an idea of the last couple months, just a round figure.

The last couple months, I've probably made $6,000. Goodness. Okay, and so you're in a remote area, correct? Yes. Okay, and so the job you had before was a work from home, and so you've been trying to get something like that where it doesn't matter where you live correct right but i've also been working at like like right now i'm working at a hotel and stuff just these little jobs just to help me keep going until i find something better you know here's my question and i want to ask this i'm trying to ask this with as much

curiosity and no judgment here. Even though you're in a remote situation, is there not a Walmart, a Target, some type of big box store, something like that that is maybe 30 minutes, 45 minutes away that is hiring? Like an hour and a half to two hours away is the closest Walmart, Target, anything. My goodness. And so you've been applying for jobs that are in your field with your experience that are remote, but just not getting anything. Right. Okay.

So I want to give you a snapshot really quick, not to discourage you, but I think we got to light a fire here. The remote jobs in America right now are back to pre-pandemic levels. I think there's this notion for a lot of people that since the pandemic, I can work remote and eventually something's going to pop, but the actual amount of jobs that are available that are 100% remote have shrunk back to pre-2020 and that's a much smaller percentage. And so right now, you're going to have to make some really key decisions. And George, I want to bring you in here because this is, yes, this is a professional and she's got to make some income. But right now, we want to keep the house. Do you have any other debt?

I have credit cards, but I've kind of had to let them go for now. Of course. All right. Because I've got to pay the bills. How much do you have in credit card debt? It's probably $7,000, $10,000. So you've just been living off of this to cover the bills or what? Or was this before?

That's what I was doing for a little bit because it's just me. How old are the kids? For a little bit? 18, 16, 14, and 3. Wow. So the three, you have no family or friends around that could help with the three-year-old? No. What are the 16 and 18-year-old doing? Are they working? Are they in school? Yeah, they're working. They're going to school. Where are they working? Where are they working? My oldest is working at a subway right now.

He's working part-time. My middle son's doing grocery store, helping carry out groceries and do a till. And then my youngest, she's got a job at... And what do those jobs pay? She's got a job at a nightclub. And what do those jobs pay? Got a job at a nightclub. Like the grocery store, I think it's eight. Subway, he's making

11 something and my daughter will be making like eight. What are you making per hour at the hotel? Right now I'm making 14. So I'm doing pretty well. How many hours are you getting? But not well enough. I'm only getting part-time, maybe 16 to 20 hours maximum a week. Okay, so what is keeping you from working another part-time job, making $14,000 or higher an hour, so that we're now equaling 40 hours a week? Trying to find a place that pays well enough to pay my mortgage. Well, but at this point, we can't be, okay, what's well enough?

What's that hourly rate that you need? Well, I need to be making about $16 at least an hour, and I have to work 90-some hours to make that post payment. 90 hours a week? No, no, no, a month. Oh. I sat down and I calculated how many hours, whatever. But my point is...

And I have to be making 16 an hour ideally for the kids, but I took this 14. I'm just making or filling in at the hotel right but here's the deal kayla you don't have many options right now you need to be working two or three jobs this 90 hours a month is the wrong way of look at it you got the wrong math i'm just trying to be honest with you called for help and i'm going to talk to you like you were my sister okay and i'm gonna be like sis, this is pretty simple. Working two part-time jobs, three part-time jobs.

Believe me, they're there in Minneapolis. I mean, I know you're way out in the sticks, but they're there. And we're doing two and three jobs because 40 hours a week gives me, on a four-week month, that gives me 160 hours, and you're running math on 90 at 16 an hour. And I'm going, forget the 90 hours at 16. My math is 40 hours a week at 14 in one job, 15, 12 at the other. Your answer to saving your house, Kayla, is working and working hard.

Where there's a will, there's a way. And I don't want you to lose your house. You shouldn't have to. Let's go. Let's get to work. Let's make some money. They are't have to. Let's go. Let's get to work. Let's make some money. They are out there. Do whatever it takes. And if you got to sell the house and move somewhere with all the kids to a better job economy, do that. This is your life. Act like it depends on

it because I'm telling you, it does. You need to get serious and fast. This is the Ramsey Show. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. We are here for you this hour, taking your money questions, your work-related questions. How about that bigger shovel? I'm here to help on that. 888-825-5225 is the number. 888-825 two two five is the number triple eight eight two five five two two five is the number let's go to dj in pittsburgh pennsylvania dj how can we help buddy so i'm kind of having some trouble wrapping my head around an issue where i'd like to start my own small equipment rental company, but I have a natural kind of aversion to debt. But I think that the amount that I'm going to need to start

this company at the lowest level is going to be enough to where it might be worth getting into some level of low-level debt. I found a 0% loan for the particular piece of equipment I want to buy. So I'm not sure where to go from here. And how much? Tell us about the equipment and how much. All right, so you need the backstory because it's a good backstory. The company that I work for is extremely motivated to help their employees out. They like to have their employees be able to have the equipment they sell.

So they sell their equipment at cost plus a small transaction fee on the new equipment. The amount is $30,000 for the piece of equipment that I want plus the attachments that I would need in order to make it marketable. Oh, you get the attachments with the 30,000? You get the attachments, you get the equipment, you get the warranty, and I'm also then allowed to be my own repairman. All right. So what kind of a machine are we talking about? What does it do? About a 3,500 pound mini excavator with zero tail swing. A mini excavator. And are you going to rent that to people?

Did I understand that right? Yes, sir. How much are you going to rent it for? I'm going to try to rent it at $350. That's kind of what I've found has been a comparable rate. $350 an hour? $350 a day. $350 a day. Oh. Seems like a pretty good deal of course i don't know

much about mini excavators uh and they usually rent somewhere in that 350 to 400 range who are the people that are renting mini excavators so my goal is to go for kind of the homeowner demographic who says i don't want to pay someone $4,000 to do this. I'm going to rent this machine for $400 and do it myself. That's kind of my demographic is I don't have enough money to be wasting it, but I have enough money to rent something. Okay. And a couple more questions here. You started off the call sounding like you were going to have multiple machines, and now we're just talking about this one. So is this what you were going to have multiple machines, and now we're just talking about this one.

So is this what you're going to start with? So this is what I'm starting with. Over time, I'm going to buy in cash, but just to get that beginning going, I'm thinking a loan would be better. How much cash do you have saved up? So right now, me and my wife are trying to buy a home, and we're also having a child, so it's kind of... This sounds like the worst time to do this.

But answer the question really quick. How much money do you have saved up? So... Sorry, I'm adding. I'd say about $7,500. Okay. Yeah, $7,500. How many tons you said this thing is for the mini excavator?

How many tons or how much did it weigh? Well, I'm looking on Facebook Marketplace, and I'm seeing a whole bunch of mini excavators running anywhere used from $5,000 to $13,000 to $15,000. Uh-oh. So why don't we just go buy a used one in cash to see if this business even has any merit to it? Exactly.

So I've called a couple local business owners over in the area that I used to work, and they said that they tried to buy the used excavators, but what ended up happening was they would go through and have to put new bushings in and put new pins in, and then the amount of work that it would take to make it marketable actually got them up above the cost of the new machine. If I'm the homeowner, I don't care if it's the shiniest, newest one. I want something that's getting the job done. Oh, I get that.

But the cost of making it, that would make it run well enough that people would be able to rent it at a reasonable cost. We've hit a wall, DJ. You called us. You want to buy a home. You're having a kid. You're about to go 30 grand into debt in the middle of all of this to hope that you ROI. It's going to take 86 rentals at $350,000 just to break even on this.

This is crazy risk, DJ. It's nuts. That's kind of why I really wanted to push towards buying the used. I just have a lot of fear about that because I've seen what those repair bills get. No, no, no. You're missing the point, DJ. You're missing the point. DJ, you're missing the point. You called us and you asked, you wanted to know our opinion.

I'm telling you, this is crazy. I would not do this business. This is risky. You should wait. Have the child. Do you have any other debt? I've actually paid off the remainder of my debt. Great. Do you have an emergency fund?

I do. Is that the $7,500 or Great. You have an emergency fund? I do. Is that the $7,500 or you have stuff outside of that? I have a cash emergency fund set aside as well, but I tend to forget that that exists because I won't touch it unless I need to. I would not start a business at this stage. Even if you had the cash, I'd put the cash towards buying a home, wouldn't you, George? Well, and right now we got this baby on the way. We got to make sure that mom and baby get home safe and there's no medical bills to pay. And this is a lot of

responsibility. And so I'm waiting until we got the baby, we're in the new house, then we can start this business with cash. With cash. Start slow. I wouldn't, even though you're getting a discount and it's this great opportunity, this is how most stupid decisions start. I don't think it's a great opportunity. I'm not even trying to dash your dreams, DJ,, this is how most stupid decisions start. I don't think it's a great opportunity. I'm not even trying to dash your dreams, DJ, but this is really – the reason I walk through who's the customer relative, this is highly speculative, and George ran the numbers. You've got to rent it how many times? 86 days.

86 days. Full-day rentals. You've got to rent it just to break even. Man, that is going to become a weight on your shoulders. Yeah, the only reason that I'm more pushed towards it is because I've talked to four people so far that do this, and they average about 10 rentals a month in the slow season. So it's not, you know, but I understand what you're saying.

I appreciate it. I would much prefer to buy it with the cash. Well, then do that. You are relying on four people who are giving you a story that's worked for them there's no guarantees it's going to work for you and they may be okay with debt you're not why would you be okay now but not later that's what's weird to me you're like well in the future i want a cash flow but right now let's go borrow money and i just don't understand where future dj is getting tripped up by present dj i just have such a fear of standing still that i i'll never do it if i don't what if you're

fear i mean that fear i do yeah but let me give you what you should be afraid of you're you should be afraid of going backwards this plan this plan has a healthy dose of going backwards involved. I'd rather stand still and go backwards. What about you, DJ? I'd say you're probably correct about that. Not probably. I'm rarely right. I've been married 25 years and I have three teenagers. I'm wrong all the time. At least that's what everybody says, George. But in this one rare situation, standing still or staying still or holding serve, you pick the metaphor, George, is a lot better. Why? Well, there's a lot of risk here. My brain just went to insurance and liability and starting the small business. What happens when this person destroys your equipment, gets hurt on your equipment because you didn't maintain it properly?

Yay, yay, yay. your equipment, gets hurt on your equipment because you didn't maintain it properly. And that part worries me alone on top of the fact you're trying to buy a house and have a baby. We're trying to do too much at once and so for those reasons, I'm out. If this was Shark Tank, I would opt out of this investment. You really handled that well. I mean, when you started running through all that, I have a tad bit of anxiety

for our friend. You need some Tums just thinking about it. You know what usually i have a little he's got some on the desk no there used to be a thing i was gonna pop a tums right there there's something about when there's big changes happening in life it makes us want to go do something a little crazy buying a house having a kid and you go now i gotta start the business if i don't do it now i'm never gonna start it george i want to bring back what i think is a really interesting wrestling match with millions of americans i want you to weigh in on it

i get what he's saying he's young he wants to get ahead he wants to own something he wants to be his own man work for himself i get that urge and he's going i'm afraid of standing still and he's forgetting about the risk of going backwards what What do you think about that wrestling match? That's a real wrestling match. Yeah, sometimes you're standing still because there's a cliff right in front of you. There's a precipice there, and it's your body saying, listen, man, you're not safe right now. And so I'm going to pause on this whole deal.

And we love small business. There's a right way to do it and a right time to do it. And both of those boxes are not checked for me. Hopefully you'll listen to us. We're on your side. By the way, George Campbell, not with just great financial advice, but dropping the word of the day. Use the word precipice sometime in the next week with your colleagues and watch them. Watch them look at you. Personal brand goes up just a notch. I make $10 words look cheap. Great word, George. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. Thrilled to have you with us.

I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. We're taking your phone calls about your money, your work. 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Now, George, you were telling me during the break you got a little something to show us here. You've pulled something that America needs to see and hear. I live on social media, as you know. I do. I get a lot of DMs from people sending me different videos and clips and reels and TikToks.

And if one gets popped up enough, I go, we got to put this on the show. Okay. And this is one that genuinely made me belly laugh. But I don't know that I've seen you belly laugh. I don't have much of a belly. That's the problem. This is a fair point.

So this is comedian Neil Brennan, known for his work, you know, co-producing, co-writing The Chappelle Show. Oh, sure. A fantastic comedian. And he's got this clip about student loans. And I thought, we have to have Ken react to this. I've never seen it, folks. On The Ramsey Show.

Okay. So let's play that role. I realized early on that these student loans are basically small business loans and the business is you and you're maybe not such a great business. Look, if they call them small business loans, no 18 year old kid would ever get the loan because it's a bad idea for a business. If you had to go to the bank to the small business desk and ask me like, yeah, I'm going to need $150,000. I'd be like, all right, what's a bad idea for a business. If you had to go to the bank, to the small business desk, and ask me, like, yeah, I'm going to need $150,000, they'd be like,

all right, what's your business idea? All right, here's the idea. For the next four years, I'm going to get blackout drunk. But also, I'm going to get a degree in sociology. Yes. I will, but just know that I did have a way to pay you guys back.

I was going to give you $80 a month for the next 240 years. Brilliant. You know, he's, listen, there's not one thing in that clip that's, that's incorrect. No lies were told. He's absolutely right. It is the biggest cash grab in the history of this country. And what I mean by that is the federal government should never be in the banking business, and you cannot call it anything other than that if you look at Fannie Mae and Sally Mae.

And they are giving low-interest loans to the American people, and they're guaranteeing them. And do you know who gets paid right away? The college and university. Yes. That tuition money goes right to their bank instantly. Instantaneous. It is a cash transaction. The higher education business is going to the bank on the backs of the American people,

and the federal government is financing all of it. And not only financing it guaranteeing it if they default because if they default the taxpayers we're on the we're on the on the hook for that there's no risk to they don't go back to the school and say dear fill in the school uh we'd like you to send 25 000 of that back because uh junior didn't finish and what's worse is that this has caused colleges to raise tuition to unprecedented levels. Because they can. Because we'll just take out more loans because we are that stupid. It is ridiculous. And by the way, the sociology degree. So let's look at the headlines. You know,

I was in New York last week, did a town hall for Fox Business, and the topic was education in America. And the segment that I was on was about college education. Is the ROI there? And the answer to that question is increasingly no. This is not my opinion. For those of you that are getting really upset at me right now, oh, Ken, the liberal arts are just good. They teach our kids how to think. Let me tell you something.

Companies by the score are removing the college degree requirement because the American companies are at a point where they're going, it doesn't matter anymore because they come out of college and I got to train them for the job anyway. So the status symbol that has been attached to the diploma, the degree, George, it's not my opinion. This is a fact. It is lessening and lessening and lessening. The good news for the American people is it's leveling the playing field. And so I just want to practically say to our audience, we have a lot of new people coming in all the time. If I could give everybody listening, watching right now, two simple questions to determine whether or not you need to get a degree, thus potentially get a loan. Ask these two questions. Is the degree

the only way to get qualified to do what I want to do? Second question, is the degree the best way to get qualified to do what I want to do? If the answer is no, I've got great news, America. There's a trade school, a certificate program, an associate's degree that you can get for pennies on the dollar, and find your path forward. George, this is the message that the Ramsey Show has got to beat over and over and over again because we've been sold a lie that the degree is a guarantee for success, and it's garbage. It's absolute garbage. On top of that, the pressure we're putting on 16, 17-year-olds to go,

hey, sign the dotted line for something you don't actually fully understand, which is six figures in student loan debt, to hope this is the thing you want to do for the rest of your life because the ROI is counting on that. That's exactly right. That four-year degree is going to pay the dividends and give you a better job and better salary than you would have gotten without it. That's all of the assumptions.

And the committee makes a very good point by going, would you give, would you bet on an 18-year-old to that degree if you were a bank? And the answer is no. But you know why banks and people are given loans? Because they're guaranteed by the federal government. So there's no risk. The government's handing out money like it's candy. And anyway, so great clip, George. He's absolutely right. By the way, I want to make a mention really quick. The Get Clear Assessment, which is a very popular tool that we sell at ramsaysolutions.com,

I created it for this very issue. Parents, listen to me. If you've got a kid that's graduating high school, get the student version right now at ramsaysolutions.com. And it will, in 15 minutes, give them a snapshot of how they're wired. In other words, what they do best, that's their talent. What they enjoy doing, that's passion. It could be turned into work they enjoy down the road. And then what motivates them? What results motivate them?

You can, as an 18-year-old, have a general idea of direction. Use the Get Clear tool. If you're brand new, if you're an adult, you're going, I need that. RamseySolutions.com, click on the Get Clear assessment. You can see both the adult version and the student version because this will help people, George, not make a costly decision that they end up paying for for decades. Oh, it's holding them back. When I covered the stats now are astounding. How many people are delaying their dreams of home ownership and marriage and having kids and working a job they want to because of their student loan debt? And the stats on how many people actually finish. I mean, you think about it, you're still going to carry that debt even if you don't graduate. And so that's something that on top of the fact you

better hope you get a degree that has marketplace value. What is the average length? Do you have a piece of data? To pay off debt? Yeah. 20 years. So that's the average. To pay off student loan debt. That's absurd. Do you know what the average payment is?

$400, around there. So folks, that's unbelievable. Average payment in America is $400 a month, and the average length of time is 20 years. Do you think the ROI is there, America? Well, they've dangled forgiveness, Ken, so maybe that'll work out. No. By the way, we got hammered for saying that that wasn't going to happen, and we knew it

was going to be challenged at Supreme Court level. Supreme Court ruled on it, as we said they would, and it's going to keep being thrown out there as a football, but again, don't buy it. I'm not catching that football. You couldn't catch a football anyway. I'd have to hand it to you, and even then you might fumble. And that's what we call a soft toss, Ken, in the biz.

But let me tell you what you don't fumble. The facts. You don't fumble the facts. I just put you on the spot. You were there, my friend. That's pretty extraordinary. I don't want to skip over that. Here's the question. Do you want to have a 400 payment for 20 years no that's the question we

ought to be so for instance what if the what if the what if the federal government when somebody applied for the student loan because you could do it so easy now online what if there was this big flashing message that says hey warning kind of like we do on cigarettes. You could have a $400 payment on average for the next 20 years. Do you want to sign up for this loan? What do you think the response would be? And I know I'm being facetious, but people would take a long, hard pause and probably go, all right, I'm going to back away right now. But instead, they make these loans so easy to get from the palm of your hand.

You can go sign up for six figures. But nobody talks about how long the average payment the payoff date is that's extraordinary all we do is promise the kids you're gonna have a great life if you work hard in school that's what we tell them so we go hey you get the loan success is guaranteed youngster and so what do they do right and then they go i don't i don't you say well what about trade school i don't want to get dirty i don't want to wear a t-shirt and be'd be all greasy at the end of the day. And you got plumbers making $300,000 a year. Electricians making $300,000 a year. Starting businesses, the American dream. I mean, working for themselves. Barbers. It doesn't have to be dirty jobs with Mike Rowe.

Yeah. No degree required. Remember those three words. That's the now, and it's the next. And you're going to see that continue to increase in the job market in America. No degree required. Wake up, America. Great stuff, George Campbell. Don't fumble the facts. Don't fumble the facts. There it is, folks.

There it is. He picked it up again. That's a touchdown. I'll explain that on the break. That's an interception, actually. Thank you for being with us. This is the Ramsey Show. you