The Ramsey Show - App - The Best Calls of the Year So Far (Part 4 - Hour 2)

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality personality number one best-selling author and author of the brand new book coming out in two weeks building a non-anxious life is my co-host today thanks for joining us open phones at 888-825-5225 peter is with us in miami florida hi peter welcome to the ramsey show hi Hi, Dave. Thank you. Thank you. How can we help? So I'm wondering what role you think I should play in helping my financially irresponsible mother.

You know, one of the things that it's weird about that question for a lot of us is when we face that is it seems like money is in a different category than other misbehavior if you changed out her misbehavior for something else a different kind of misbehavior or irresponsibility um what would the how would the answer change it shouldn't really should it ought to be the same answer. So, in other words, if we wanted to go extreme and say, how do I help my mom who's addicted to cocaine, right? Well, it wouldn't be give her more.

Right. It would be help her break the habit and transform her life. That's help. Help is not doing more of the bad thing. Help is correcting the behaviors. And, of course, that involves the person on the other end wanting the help. Yeah, I usually run into parents don't want your help. They want your solution, right?

Yeah. She just has no issues, you know, talking to me again and again and again and again, and a nibble here and a bite here. And, you know, I know that the big bite is coming. But hold on, hold on, hold on. Why wouldn't she come to you? Because you give it to her every time. Right. I know.

And so at this point, I don't even blame her anymore. You're a dependable enabler. Yeah, I don't even blame her anymore. I am. I am. And, you know, the nibbles I don't mind. And I know that this is not the bad thing to say, but that's what got her to the bite. And you know, next thing I know, she's telling me that she rents, she rents her house because she's been bankrupt, et cetera. So she can't get a mortgage and she can't frankly afford a mortgage down here anymore. Um, so she came to me cause she needed money for movers. She needed

money for her security deposit or first month, last month, which I did all of that. Uh, and then I sort of dug into her finances and realized that you can't even afford this rent. So I tried to get ahead of that. And fortunately I'm doing very well for myself and my family, but I'm doing well for myself and my family. And I've got two young children and a wife and a mortgage and a business to run. So I just... So, Peter, how long has this been going on? Oh, I mean her financial... No, you giving her money.

You giving her money. How long has it been going on? Probably five, six, seven years. How old is she? About 73. Oh, wow. And she's stone broke. Yeah, and recently widowed, which only made me softer.

My stepfather passed two years ago, three years ago. So obviously that I was trying to help. And what do you make? Family household income is probably three quarters of a million. Okay. And so it's not a matter of you can't or can, you can mathematically. Yeah. It's a matter of what's good for her.

She's 73. She's probably not very employable. I guess she has Social Security. She does have a job. I'm sorry? She does have a full-time job. She does have a full-time job. Okay.

I retract that statement. What does she do? She's a customer service, and she has been for about 20 years the same job but you know she's one fall away from yeah not being able to work anymore yeah okay so i'll tell you the financial answer and i'll let john tell you the psychological answer okay the financial answer if i'm in your shoes is i'm gonna to sit down with her and say, Mom, you have this coming in from your Social Security. You have this coming in from your job. And these are your bills. Let's do a budget together. And you can make your bills or you're within $400 of making your bills or or whatever it is, okay? And so I am not going to write checks just from today on without us having a sense of control over what's going on here. So I'll help you and coach you with your money,

but it looks to me like you have enough to live on. And I'll help you and coach you live on that. Or if you don't have enough to live on, I'm going to give you $2,000 a month so that you and coach you live on that. Or if you don't have enough to live on, I'm going to give you $2,000 a month so that you have enough to live on this. $24,000 out of $750,000, you can afford it. But you say, this is what we're doing. But then she needs to just, it's, you're becoming bitter, and I would too, because you feel like an ATM machine.

Exactly. And then there's an entitlement that goes with this on her end. And so I would shut all of that down and just say, okay, this is a system, and we're going to live by this system and draw some boundaries. And, Mom, if you don't want to do that, if you don't want to live on the budget that you and I put together and that I check on you to make sure you're living on that budget, then I'm not going to help you anymore. And you're going to have to just figure

it out because it's not good for you what I've been doing. And I'm sorry I've let you down. John, what would you do? Yeah. I wonder if you're more frustrated with yourself than with her right now. Yeah. Yeah. I, it's just every time I try to get ahead of it, you know, for example, when, when she was looking at this rent, um, I said, you know what, I'm just going to buy her an apartment and then she can just pay me, you know, what she can afford. I was going to buy her an apartment outright. And I was scrambling because she was looking for a rental that she couldn't afford. None of these places could she afford because we kind of, not a deep dive, but we looked at her finances. And then I realized, okay, it's, this is just easier for me to buy an apartment, at least then I can consider it

a quote unquote investment of some sorts. Um, and I presented her with it and she said, no, I don't want to live there. I'm just going to rent this other place. And hold on. And that's where you, who are clearly a special businessman to be able to make the money you make, you're clearly very smart

and I would be willing to bet nobody in your sphere blows past you like that, but she does. Right. And I don't want you to consider sitting down at the table and saying, I'm looking at the fact that you may be around until you're 93, 20 more years. We have to put some things in concrete right now. I want you to tattoo this phrase on the middle of your forehead. Choose guilt over resentment every time.

Because right now, you're backing yourself into a corner because you won't set boundaries and you're beginning, every time your mom calls, you get angry. Yes. And your mom, quite frankly,

deserves better than that. And that means you have to set the boundaries up. And then she, as a 73-year-old adult, can say, I hate you, you don't even love me, and you walk away. She's a grown-up and she gets to do that. And that means you have to set the boundaries up. And then she is a 73 year old adult can say, I hate you. You don't even love me. And you walk away. She's a grownup and she gets to do that. I would hate that, but she gets to do that. Your job is to create boundaries that are sustainable for 20 years from this point forward. And by the way, sit with your wife and y'all decide what y'all are going to do to help her before you sit down with your mom. Yeah. How much you're willing to do do but the unlimited thread being pulled on the sweater is killing both of you yeah you got to cut it

jade washall ramsey personality is my co-host today open phones at 888-825-5225. Jane is in Knoxville. Hi, Jane. How are you? I'm pretty good. How are you, Dave? Better than I deserve. What's up? Oh, need so much help.

I need one of them swords to slay a huge dragon. I might be your toughest case you've ever had. Anyway, my husband is around, he's fixing to be 65. I'm around 59. And we have 10 kids. I'm homeschooling my last one. She's 15. Anyway, long story short, I had to go to work.

He got really sick, and so he can't work like he used to. So I'm now working. I started working this past year. And we definitely need help. We have quite a bit of debt, and I don't know where to start. So I have a car that we made a huge mistake and got a new vehicle and we owe about $54,000, maybe $53,000 on it, which is I know crazy, but we didn't really have a good vehicle for me to go to work in. So we did something

stupid. So long story short, that was my first question. Do we sell that to try to get out of this debt? But I finally realized that we're old enough. We wish we had these things in plan. But I've been a homeschool mom all my life, so this is all new to me. What's the car worth? Probably $42,000, $43,000. What's your household income? Together now we make almost about $85,000, maybe $80,000 to $85,000.

Yes. You need to sell it. Okay. Yes, you shouldn't have bought it. Yes, you shouldn't have. Who's got the loan? Hyundai. Okay.

How bad's your credit? I have good credit. Well, run over to the credit union or your local bank and get an unsecured loan for 15 000 buy a three thousand dollar car and cover the 12 000 hole you're in and sell it okay could you say that again you got to borrow the amount that you're in the hole okay in order to sell it plus three thousand dollars to get a car okay because you got no car right no he has his truck for the farm, but we don't have a car.

Get you a little $3,000 car to get around, and you don't need a $43,000 car to go to work. Okay. So is that the first thing to do? We have a tractor payment of $40,000 and a small person on a tractor. $40,000 on a tractor? Yes. We have a 500-acre farm that he's trying to still take care of. Like I said, he got COVID really bad.

He got really sick, almost died. So it changed our lives two years ago. You live on the farm? We do live on the farm. That's a long story, but we can't sell it because we found out it's in a trust that his parents had put in. So we take care of it. We have no money to take care of it, but what we make. And so we can take care of it we have no money to take care of it but what we make and so we can't sell it

sell the tractor and lease the land okay let somebody else farm it your husband's sick and you can't afford the tractor and you're not making any money anyway so the tractor lease the land that sounds great let somebody get another farmer to lease it what's your husband been growing on it um we have corn um trying to think what all he does uh corn soybeans um they've done a lot of different stuff too i'm not even sure i mean if it's pretty standard deal is another farmer in the area farms it, and you get a percentage of the crop as your lease payment. Okay. That's a pretty standard arrangement. I assume that can go to you.

I don't know. You don't own it. I know it's a terrible situation. I don't know if it goes to the trust or not. No, it doesn't. If you make money on the farm, you don't have to give it to the trust, right? No, we don't because we have to pay the taxes and all the stuff for it. It's just in a trust.

I mean, all the land's tied up in a trust. Who is the parent? I'm sorry. What did you say? That's okay. I'm aghast. Yes, so am I. This is not a blessing.

So this is his family farm. His grandpa had it? Yes. his grandpa's grandpa had it yes okay and so they don't they put it into a trust so that it doesn't get sold that's exactly and then we didn't realize that we actually paid money for the house when we moved here but we did not know until after they passed away that they actually put the house in with the trust so we don't even own the house okay wow and so i assume upon your death that the trust goes to your kids yes they're cursed with this as well that's exactly right yeah wow i guess there's no way to do anything about it i don't know i don't either but i'm going to see an attorney uh and try to figure out because i don't my obligation to a toxic situation is

pretty low um i mean what happens to this beautiful plan if you all just move off i don't really know you quit paying the taxes that's my question yeah the trust will get trust will lose it if you don't pay the taxes because you're getting no benefit from this thing at all no we're not and there's no penalty on them that's why we are where we are who is the trustee my husband is the trustee the trust you need to go see an attorney. Okay. Do you recommend one that might be? No, I go to an estate planning attorney there in Knoxville. Ask around, find out who does good estate planning work,

because this probably needs to be busted up. I hate to sell family land like this, but it has become a curse rather than a blessing. That's right. And I love land, and I love family tradition and legacy, and I'm about as the older I get, the more emotional i get about that kind of stuff but this has not been a blessing to you and it's not going to be a blessing to your

kids that's right because it's poorly structured and so y'all need to figure out what the flip so go yeah spend a little money on an attorney let's get out of the car and get out of the car deal and get out of the tractor deal what other debt is there uh we have a personal loan for about 30 that we just had to live on since he got sick and that's really it because you have so many payments you can't breathe yeah that's right and nothing really and nothing coming to sale well once you get out of that car and tractor you'll be able to throw something at that personal loan and knock that out yeah and then that'll be it right yeah just tear that down and tear down whatever hole you're in on the car and you may be in a hole on the tractor as well but um maybe you can get a farmer to take that tractor and buy

it as a part of leasing the deal if you want to investigate that but also investigate uh busting up the trust which by the way will solve the whole problem because now you're in control of the asset you can sell off you know 50 acres of this and all of a sudden you've got some money and you're in control of the asset. You can sell off 50 acres of this, and all of a sudden you've got some money, and you're debt-free, and keep a 450 of it. I mean, you'd be just fine. So, Dave, somebody passes away, and you're part of a trust, or you're part of their will. You can't just simply decline and say, I don't want it.

Well, you can fail to perform the things they're asking you to perform. The weird thing here is that he's the trustee the trustees who has the control um and so depending i'm not an attorney but depending on how the trust is written the trustee is supposed to execute the terms of the trust but also the if somebody's going to break it up it's going to be the trustee and her husband's trustee yeah so if it was some third party attorney or his uncle or somebody was the trustee and her husband's a trustee yeah so if it was some third party attorney or his uncle or somebody was the trustee then he you know you might not be able to get anywhere with it but when you're the trustee of your own trust i mean that's weird it's weird yeah so um somebody

was trying to do something good and honorable and nice and keep them keep it in the family but uh instead they handcuff the family yeah and um have left them in a toxic situation so that's what you've got to be careful of of these things that go in perpetuation you know a small example of that that's not nearly as uh emotional as you know we just went just went through the if Dave dies this year meeting with my family and with the leaders. I have to do this Monty Python meeting every year. I'm feeling much better. It's just a flesh wound.

And we just talk about what happens this year if Dave dies. So one of the things that one of the tenets is it's written down and that we go over in that meeting every year is that nothing that we do at Ramsey Solutions is to be kept alive because it was Dave's dream. Okay, that's good. You're set free from sacred cows. That's good. You should put a bullet in all sacred cows and eat them.

Turn them into a hamburger, although you would not eat them. I was going to say, do we have to eat them, Dave? I want to eat them, but I'll be dead, and you're a vegan'll be dead and you're a vegan so we're turning into a leather jacket how about that there we go now we're talking get some use out of that burger out of that beefalo but anyway yeah the the sacred tech cows and that's that's what these things become especially generationally like this yeah where you're like four generations down and what... You can't have the foresight to know what's going to happen

four generations from now. I turned the kids loose and the Ramsey team loose from doing something that I thought was good 30 years ago or 20 years ago. Kill it.

Move on. I want them to turn loose emotionally and legally. Yeah. Go to the next thing. Go to what God has given you to do. That's good. This is The Ramsey Show.

George Campbell, Ramsey personality, is my co-host. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Royalty is in the house. One of the top YouTubers in America today, or in the world for that matter. Graham Stephan has become good friends with me and through George. I was good friends with George long before that. I've been blessed to be on his show a couple times, and he's dropped by here once before, and they were in town.

So he and Jack and I just did a version of his iced coffee house. Did I say that right? Iced coffee hour. Hour. Iced coffee hour. It's like smart money happy hour. It would be in the house, but there we go. So if you don't know who Graham is, you need to check him out.

$130 million worth of real estate he has sold in his life. He does a YouTube channel on finance and on real estate, and it's a lot of fun to check out Graham Stephan. Be sure and do that. And last month, they had about 100 million viewers on all of their various forms of TikTok and everything else, and four and a half million subscribers on YouTube. So if you don't know who he is, it's because you're not in that format, and that's the only way it's possible. You're not that hip. All of us who hang out anything around that know who Graham Stephan is. Welcome back.

Thank you so much for having me back on. So good to have you. So first question, because you and I both share this huge love of real estate, and these interest rates ticking up, highly unusual across the landscape of the last 20 years. Are you seeing, what are you seeing out there? Slow down, prices, what are you seeing? It's definitely slowed down a lot. So what I've noticed, a lot of the smart money,

it seems to be either buying real estate in cash or they're waiting on the sidelines. And I think a lot of people look at real estate from an investment standpoint and think, why would I buy real estate today making a six to maybe 7% return when I could use the same money to buy treasuries without any work, any risk at 5.5%? And there seems to be a tipping point right now where deals are very difficult to come by.

There's a lot of competition and sellers are locked in to these very low mortgages. They have very little incentive to sell. If they have a mortgage that's 4%, why would they sell and replace that with a 7% or 8% mortgage? It doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah, investors aside, consumer to consumer seem to be having that discussion. Oh, absolutely. They're saying, yeah, I could sell my house. The price is still really good, but then I got to go buy a house at 3x or 4x the interest rate. And yeah, I could refinance it later, but they're really not thinking that way.

They're thinking, I'm just going to wait on this a minute. Yeah. Well, I think 60% of mortgages right now are locked in 4% or less. Yes. Substantial. Yes. That's almost all of them. Yeah.

I mean, the number below 2% is bizarre. Yeah. That's out there. So cool stuff. So stock market% is bizarre. Yeah. That's out there. So cool stuff. So stock market's doing well. Yeah. It has been. Like you said, the treasury's there.

But that's the little secret. Everybody in the media, the mass media in particular, is talking real estate and failed to mention that the S&P in the last 12 months has done about, what, 16%, 18%? About that. At the peak, it was up almost 20%. Yeah. Wow. and that's just the s&p i mean that's just if you just bought an index fund which people do with their eyes closed right you don't think that's not that's a no brain no thought thing if you actually invested and thought

about it and studied a little bit you could do better than that yeah i'm graham i'm curious a lot of your videos of course for youtube we have to be a little salacious right there has to be a little doom and gloom to get the people to click but what are your real thoughts when it comes to the economy what's going to happen in 2024 where do you think things are heading are you doing and glooming on your youtube you have to because otherwise people don't click though my videos i like to be pretty unbiased i like to share the present the entire picture let people come to their own conclusions but if you don't make a somewhat negative title oh no one negative sell the videos itself usually are pretty positive overall but you have to lean into that because otherwise people just don't pay attention but

you seem like an optimistic guy you know just talking to you you are very optimistic about the future about finances where the economy is going and you're invested in the stock market and real estate yeah well i think you could do well regardless of how the economy does. I think that's a component of it and it might be a bit short term in terms of the next few years. I have no idea what could happen. Everything that I would think is going to happen turned out opposite. I would have no prediction in terms of what might happen. But I think long term, I believe in myself, my ability to make money. I think for most people, they have a lot more direct control than they think. And you're betting on the American economy long term.

I think so. And of course, I diversify. I have international exposure as well. But it's a small component. But I do think that's important. The interesting thing is that people get confused between investing and speculating. Speculating is a purchase that you're going to turn fairly quickly. It's not an evil word.

It's just not investing. Investing always involves a long-term time horizon. And when you're investing with a long-term time horizon, let's call it five years or more, 100% of the time I'm comfortable with the stock market. Oh, it's down. Then get in. It's on sale.

You know, 100% of the time I'm comfortable with the real market oh it's down then get in it's on sale you know a hundred percent of the time i'm comfortable with the real estate market well i don't know five years from now you're gonna not be doing that you're gonna be glad you bought a property you know so a long-term time horizon like you said uh to me it just smooths everything out and change you know then you've got historical track records and things start to kick in do i know what it's going to do between now and this time next year so i could do a flip no that would scare the crud out of me that's why a lot of home builders aren't building specs right now they can't they can't you can't predict it i mean economists and weather forecasters the only people can be wrong half the time and keep their job right absolutely and then you could be right once

and then you're a genius forever you're a genius that was my one thing you could write three books yeah well i'm curious graham you're getting married next year yes it's very exciting yes i didn't know you didn't know this i thought i thought you knew about this i didn't break this news no you did not break well i'm sure you were asking dave in an interview earlier which little teaser there about, you know, his relationship with his wife, Sharon and marriage. Is there anything you're curious about, kind of maybe nervous about when it comes to finances and combining those? Not really. Macy and I are pretty attuned when it comes to money. And she's naturally very frugal. Like you. Yeah. And to some degrees, I would say it's a good balance because I'll certainly go out. I don't fret anymore of like going to dinner and spending $100 on the bill. Whereas like five years ago, that would be like, well, if I spend $100 here, I could cut back $100 over here and then it balances out. And if I skip this over here, then I could, I don't do that anymore. So I've really come into-

Learn to enjoy your money a little bit. Yes. Yeah.'m still frugal but not to the same degree notice that's when he got married ah now it's when he lightened up a little bit i lightened up just a little bit a little bit yeah so you and macy are both tight wads and so later you'll make little tight wads this is great yeah it's gonna be fun this is great a bunch of cheapskates what are you willing to splurge on these days as you've started to like let go of some of that and enjoy it a little i would say experiences are something that in the past i would usually forego that to work more so i would say experiences uh i would say dinners are something that i've really been enjoying and going out to eat a few times a week. And I would say saving time, which is something that I've never really done before. Oh, spending money for time-saving conveniences.

If I could. Like, for instance, if I get a nicer seat on the airplane, but that means that maybe I could work a little bit better. If I have a slightly larger seat, I could put my computer in front of me, and if I could get something else done, I see that as a justifiable expense. So there's certain things that I could do to save time. if you need any tips on spending ask dave he's really good at enjoying his money he loves experiences he's traveling all over the world so that's part of it is you know give save spend you got to have balance yeah so what's the biggest advice with you having the one of the largest youtube channels on real estate and money

in the world today? What's the biggest piece of advice in this current environment you've got for folks listening? I think it really just depends on what their objective is. I mean, my big thing is always save as much as you can, spend less than what you make. I think those are just important qualities to have in terms of career though, because that's where I've really gotten the biggest benefit is just the channel and the outreach. The savings certainly helped, but the income that I made from that was certainly a big catalyst. But I truly loved what I do. And I still do. It's like, to me, work never felt like work. It was always something fun. And that's where things came really easy for me. And I feel like if people could find what they truly love to

do, where it doesn't feel like work people could find what they truly love to do, where it doesn't feel like work to them and they could spend all day doing it, that's how you typically will succeed in areas where others just can't keep up. That's your unfair advantage, I think. You're more creative. You're more energetic. And you have to watch

because you work all the time. It's just fun. It's fun. Congratulations. I'm so proud of you. And congrats on the marriage. Thank you. Awesome.

Thank you. Give Macy our love. Good stuff. Graham Stephan, be sure and check out his shows on YouTube, congratulations thank you so much and congrats on the marriage thank you awesome thank you give macy our love good stuff graham stefan be sure and check it out his shows on youtube the graham stefan show and one more time the name of the show iced coffee hour check out dave ramsay on there i messed it up i didn't want to mess it up again be sure and check it out thanks for stopping by This is The Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Debra is with us in Los Angeles.

Hi, Debra. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi. Thanks so much. I've been listening to you guys for years and appreciate all you do. Well, thank you. You're very welcome. I've been listening to you guys for years and appreciate all you do. Well, thank you. You're very welcome. I have a question for you. I've been listening for a long time, and yesterday I went in to adjust my own investments because we've been focused on other things. I wanted to get everything set up in the four different types of mutual funds you mentioned. And the guy who is not a Ramsey certified financial pro,

but he mentioned a term that I'd never heard before. When I brought up mutual funds, he asked me if I'd considered ETFs. And I have no idea or I hadn't heard what that was. He explained it to me and it sounds very similar to mutual funds. So I was just wondering if you could clarify what the difference is and why a mutual fund. So I was just wondering if you could clarify what the difference is

and why a mutual fund is better than an ETF. I don't know that a mutual fund is better than an ETF. ETF just means exchange-traded fund. And for purposes you would use it for, they're very, very similar. They're almost identical. It's a group of stocks if you're buying an exchange. You know, typically what people will do for an ETF is something like an index fund, like an S&P 500.

And so it would just be a group of stocks in there. Now, sometimes brokers will try to get you to buy and sell in your portfolio a lot, and they like an exchange-traded fund for that better. And so if you're setting it up to do like, you'd set up a brokerage account to buy and sell stocks in, I would not use it for that. But if you're using it like a mutual fund, just to buy and hold, you're going to find it's almost identical that you didn't really, you're not going to notice any difference in the practical use of it. So sometimes I hear things like, well, Dave Ramsey's against ETFs. I'm not against ETFs. I don't mind.

What I want you to have is a diversified portfolio, mutual funds, ETFs, either one of those will give it to you. What I don't want you to do with an ETF is start buying and selling all the time. And I don't want you to use any vehicle of investing that prompts you to constantly be jumping in and out, jumping in and out, jumping in and out. Because every time the news is good, by the time the news is good on the stock market, you're late. You should have already been in. By the time the news is bad, it's already too late for you to get out. And so people that try to jump in and out based on the news,

and you're not saying that, Debra. I'm just saying, but in general, if you're trying to use an ETF to time the market, we call it, then that use is not something that we would tell people to do ever because I don't time the market. I just buy and hold. I never sell it. I just buy and keep it.

Well, the stock market went down. Yeah, I know. The stock market went up. Yeah, I know. And if I just sit there, then I'm fine. But for your purposes, Debra, I think he's fine as long as you're going to stick with it and as long as he's not, your planner is not recommending the etf for purposes of timing the market or buying and selling or constantly trading on your funds i don't be

trading on my funds all the time i buy them and hold them the only time i sell a fund is if uh it's just completely under performance category over a long period of time and i don't remember the last time i sold one it's been a long long time because i just i play long ball all the time play long ball i'm always thinking what's this going to be 10 years from now what's it going to be 20 years from now not 10 days from now not 10 months from now the emotions don't drive it and again deborah you're not being accused of any of that but i'm trying to couch my etf answer here so i don't get misunderstood again because I'm not anti-ETF. I'm anti-timing and I'm anti-constantly trading. Because it's effectively gambling. If you try to play the

market, you can really get done quickly. You're no longer investing, you're speculating. That's correct. Yep. And you are, you know, from a statistical standpoint, not a spiritual standpoint, you are gambling. Right. You know, and so, and sometimes I hear people say, in the Christian world that I'm in, you know, they'll say stuff like, well, all stock market is gambling and you shouldn't be doing that. Well, you don't understand what gambling is. Gambling is not based on, gambling is based on, it's a game of chance. Right.

Yeah. Meaning you don't have any control or any insight. That's right. Over the output. Investing is you buy a piece of real estate. Why? Because real estate's always gone up, and real estate in that neighborhood's a great neighborhood.

It's got nice trees, and it's going to be good and whatever, or if you're in Arizona, nice cactuses or whatever it is, right? And so we're going to – but we have actual outputs that we're measuring, and we can look at the probabilities, and it's not just a deck of cards. It's not a slot machine. There's a complete difference, and there's a difference in the spirit by which you go at those things. So none of that has to do with Deborah, but Deborah, thanks for the question. Jessica's with us in Madison, Wisconsin.

Hi, Jessica. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, thanks for having me on. Great. How can we help? So my question is, I had received some money when my dad passed away. We used that money to pay off vehicles and use it as a down payment on our house. And all we had for debt then was a mortgage.

Since then, we bought a tractor and built a barn. We were told to just let the money ride in the market. We were never going to touch it. That was retirement money. As I've been listening to your show the last couple weeks, I'm wondering if that was the best advice we were given and if we should pull the money from the stocks and pay off our debt. Yeah, and then you need to quit buying crap you can't afford,

like barns and tractors uh it's stuff needed for our bull you're buying stuff you can't afford okay you know how i know you did that you borrowed on it instead of paying for it if it was such a dadgum good investment you would have already used daddy's stock money on that hello yep i'm here yeah my my question is do we pull the money from the the stocks and no you don't unless you're going to quit borrowing money and on the next thing that you rationalize and justify but if you stop rationalizing and justifying your purchases on debt, because you're going to eventually run out of this if you keep this behavior pattern going. But if you stop the behavior pattern and say, I'm never borrowing again, we're going to pay cash for everything we do from this point forward, then yes, we did this.

But the last time you paid off all your debts, what'd you do? The next time the thing that came up, you went back in debt. And so if I tell you to pay off this debt, next thing that comes up, you're going to go back in debt. I don't want that for you. That's not a method to prosperity. That's a method to bankruptcy. And so you've got to put your, you know, you got to spit shake and pinky swear with your

husband. We're not borrowing money anymore. If you're going to do that, then yeah, take the money out and pay off the debt. But otherwise, you're destined to live a life of put and take. We're going to pay it off, then we're going to go back in debt. We're going to pay it off, then we're going to go back in debt. And eventually, we don't have any money to pay it off. Eventually, you run out of the nest egg doing that.

So you've got to break this pattern. And you were very clear. We used some of the money, cleared off all the debt. How did we celebrate we bought a tractor in a barn and went back in debt you've got to break that cycle you can't do that again and again and again there's an end to it and the end ain't pretty so that's what i want for you um and there's no rationalization no justification you got to be done you'll be done you gotta decide we're done you know it an investment. It's always an investment.

Everybody says everything's an investment that they want to buy, but most things aren't. Yeah, and this is a key point about the hay. Tractors aren't investments. Or the barn. So what happens is when you feel the need to have something, you have to go, okay, what's the least amount of thing that I need to do what I want to do? Could we have done a shed that we could have paid cash for? What's behind these purchases? Not prospective opportunities.

I'm going to need this barn one day. If we don't need the barn now, then we don't need to buy the barn now. And I think that's where people have got to start looking at this and going, what do I really need? Do I need a big tractor or do I need an old used tractor that'll do the job? And that's what people have to do or else you justify debt. Almost every one of us buy a different thing when we buy it with debt than if we had bought it with cash. I agree with that 100%. Almost every one of us. Yeah. And you buy a

bigger, badder, cooler. That's correct. Crazier. Yeah. Nuttier. Yeah. Dumber. Right. Thing. You got to find a way. Because it doesn't feel like it's real money when it's the bank's money. That's absolutely right. And that's the trap of this. It a it's a siren song yeah and it you know you'll crash this puppy on the rocks and that's what the sirens do to you look it up this is the ramsey show Dave here. You can find all of our shows with the Ramsey Network app on your smartphone. It's the only place to listen to the entire back catalog of episodes. Download the Ramsey Network app in your favorite app store today.