The Ramsey Show - App - The Faster You Attack Your Debt - The Faster You Achieve Financial Freedom

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

📈 ⁠Are you on track with the Baby Steps? Get a Free Personalized Plan⁠ Dave Ramsey and Dr. John Delony answer your questions and discuss: "My aunt is trying to steal our inheritance. Should I help my mom cover lawyer fees?" "I haven't filed taxes in 15 years, how do I apply for tax forgiveness?" "I'm $180,000 in debt. How can I clean up this mess?" "Should I go into student loan debt for a bachelor's degree?" "How much should we spend to save our dog?" Next Steps: ✅ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Help us make the show better by taking this short survey!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📞 Have a question for the show? Call 888-825-5225 weekdays from 2–5 p.m. ET or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠send us an email.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💵 ⁠⁠Start your free budget today. Download the EveryDollar app!⁠⁠ ❤️‍🩹 ⁠Get trusted insurance coverage that fits your budget.⁠ 👩‍❤️‍💋‍👨 ⁠Get tickets for Money & Marriage Getaway.⁠ 💰 ⁠⁠⁠⁠Hurry—Your chance to win $5k is almost over! Enter the Ramsey Cash Giveaway today!⁠⁠⁠ Connect with our Sponsors: 🛒 Stop paying more and start shopping smarter at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Aldi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ BetterHelp⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📱Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Boost Mobile⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to switch today! 🏥 Learn more about⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Christian Healthcare Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🏡 Get started today with⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Churchill Mortgage⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🔒 Get 20% off when you join ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠DeleteMe⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🏦 Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ FAIRWINDS Credit Union⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for an exclusive account bundle! 🥗 Save 15% on your first ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Field of Greens⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ order with code RAMSEY ⛨ Find top Health Insurance Plans at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Health Trust Financial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💸 To find out more about student loan refinancing, check out⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Laurel Road⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💻 Visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ NetSuite⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ today to learn more 🗂️ Use promo code RAMSEY for 18% off at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Nokbox⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💵 Learn more about ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Timothy Plan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🏛 Get started with ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YRefy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or call 844-2-RAMSEY 🔐 Visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Zander Insurance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for your free instant quote today! Explore more from Ramsey Network: 💸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Ramsey Show Highlights⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🧠 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Dr. John Delony Show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🍸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Smart Money Happy Hour⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💡 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rachel Cruze Show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💰 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠George Kamel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🪑 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📈 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠EntreLeadership⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Dr. John Delaney, PhD in counseling, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, and host of the popular Dr. John Delaney show on Ramsey Networks. All of that, he's my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here.

Erica is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hey Erica, what's up in your world? Hi guys. At first it's an honor to speak with you both. My family and I were big fans, so much so that my now two-year-old, one of her first words was 225, and we knew that she just wanted to listen to the show.

That's what it show. She's got the phone number down already she knows who to call in an emergency. That's right. So I'm gonna I write I wrote this down because I'm super nervous but I hope that's okay. So I'm originally from Brazil although as of recently I'm incredibly proud to say that I'm an American. The Brazilian laws make it super complicated to leave a customizable will. So decades ago my grandmother decided that she was going to, it's called donate a portion of her part of the estate that she had to split in half with her deceased husband and I don't know exactly how much I think my portion is like

30%. As of last, early last year, my aunt has been trying to steal this entire estate from my mother and I, who are the other two beneficiaries. Last night at eight 30 at night, beneficiaries. Last night at 830 at night I got a text from my mom, long text, basically asking me to pitch in with lawyer fees. Now this lawyer fee is not crazy like it is here because of the exchange rate but it would be around like $500 and then she also said that Wednesday tomorrow there's going to be a cost. She's going to be signing a contract and there's going to be another additional

fee that I would have to pitch in with half halfway probably. Now my husband and I, we have no problem doing this, but we are in baby step number two. We are, we have been working really hard for 15 months. We are finally a little bit trying to be a little bit more financially responsible where my parents are completely the opposite way. I said no. And in the Brazilian culture, how dare you? So when I said no. And in the Brazilian culture, how dare you? So when I said no- No, that's just a mother culture.

Okay, maybe, yeah, you're right. Okay, I got you, all right. Brazilian mom might put a little more flair on it. Oh my gosh, it's just such drama. So when I said no, she stopped responding to my texts because then I asked, is there any wiggle room? Like, when is this due? Is it due right now? Basically in the text message, she was saying, give me $500 now,

give me a blank number. I, she doesn't know tomorrow. And so now she's basically not really speaking to me. And because I have two little babies at home, they talk to me all the time. So it's always been really hard for me to say no to them, especially when it comes to finances. Like I've, they've put me into a ton of debt when I was, before I got married. And now, you know, how much is it Erica, how much is this inheritance? I don't know exactly.

They would have to sell the entire house. Give me a rough estimate in American dollars please. Around maybe 30,000 I would say. No is the correct answer. It's not 3 million. It's probably not 30,000 by the time you get through with all this crap. You're going to burn more calories than that Just what wave bye-bye put it in the rear-view mirror

Yeah, mom you can have my half Do I say something like I'll pay it later no No, I think you gave him an answer Yeah, no is a complete sentence. And part of you doesn't believe your mom's narrative do you? Well you believe sorry, say again. Yeah. It sounds like you don't fully believe your mom. Because she's really doing this. You don't call for lawyer fees at the last minute. The night before, yeah. I, it's not that I don't believe it that. Your mom needs money for something else, doesn't she?

Maybe, I need to be a living lifestyle. But that's why you feel sick to your stomach. Cause if this was 500 bucks for $30,000 that you knew you were gonna get, then that's a no brainer, you wouldn't be calling us. And all the players involved were credible, except the ant, but yeah. Even a baby step two, that's a no-brainer, that's easy.

That becomes one of your bills because that's a thing you need to cover to help accelerate this thing. That's not the case here. But you wouldn't call someone, you wouldn't call your friend up and present something this vague and ambiguous? No. Okay. You would say here's precisely what's going on, here's the exact amount and you would do it a week before not 12 hours before. Well, yeah. Yeah. And so there's something wrong. Smells bad. You know why it smells bad? Because it stinks. That's right. The problem that my husband and I have is that they have like a bunch of assets that they could sell off. We went crazy selling everything that we had in our house. I know, but get out of their heads. That's gonna make you and your husband nuts. If you join crazy in their head, it makes you crazy.

Yeah, yeah, don't get in their head and try to figure out why they are or are not doing things. Be grateful that you and your husband have made the choices you've made, and you're all gonna have real freedom for the first person in your lineage. So let me try to paint this another way. When you get out of baby step two

and you finish your emergency fund in baby step three and you start baby step four, you're how old right now? I'm 30, my husband's 33. So when you're 40, you're gonna be a millionaire, right? I'm in Jesus' name. Yeah, and what's your household income? My husband makes 90 right now, I'm a stay at home mom. In Jesus name and in the name of math, somewhere around 10 to 15 years from now, you will be

there. Okay? And so whether or not you get this $30,000, your destiny on this earth, your quality of providing for your children is not based on this inheritance. If you never see this inheritance, which is fairly likely at this point, your life goes on. Right. So this is more about you just telling your mom, knowing, loving it. Yeah. And smiling. Just smile, be sweet. Just say, Mom, I love you. And I understand this means a lot to you. And I'm not, I would, I'm be happy to get the inheritance and I'd be happy to put some

money towards this, but not in the circumstances you presented I'm not I would be happy to get the inheritance and I'd be happy to put some money towards this but not in the circumstances you presented and so I can't do it right now sorry right or you can honestly say we don't have the money right now well yeah that's what I said and she said well I don't have the money right now and I wanted to be like okay then why that's yeah there you go right and that's my problem how yeah yeah and so yeah I don't have them I mean, you can honestly say that until you're at least out of baby step too. Like we don't have the money right now. We're negative. And why is it such an emergency now? Yeah. This is weird. Erica,

you smelled a rat and you're used to it. And you know more about this drama and this narrative than we do. We've only got two minutes into it and we can smell it. So it's hard that setting boundaries with people who don't respect boundaries 100% of the time makes the other person crazy. They go bananas. 100% of the time you get a negative reaction when you set a boundary with a boundary-less person. Your mom's not used to anybody telling her no if they happen to be in her string of the DNA. And so it's something she needs to not used to anybody telling her no if they happen to be in her string of the DNA. And so it's something she needs to get used to. It'll be good for her. It's kind of sweet. This is The Ramsey Show.

Jenny's in Portland, Oregon. Hi Jenny, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Thank you Dave. I have a question about tax-for-giveness. Okay. I was diagnosed with CPTSD and a traumatic brain injury and got onto Social Security. Because I was homeless, someone taught me how to use one of the delivery platforms and I was able to start working and, um, and, but because of those platforms don't take out taxes, um, I am, um, starting an investigation at work regarding abuse and they're going to investigate me. And I don't want my tax issues to distract them from you know the real

issue that I'm trying to get taken care of so I'm needing help with the tax forgiveness program. Okay so you haven't filed taxes and how long? The last time I filed taxes was 2010. 15 years? Yes, I was, I was, um, and you've been earning an income, you've been earning an income for how many years? Five years besides the disability I was getting before. Yeah. And your recovery to where you're functioning again, I'll use my words. I don't know if that's the right words.

Dr. John can help me with that, but where you become sustainable again, your recovery from the traumatic brain injury and the PTSD is five years ago? Where you became able to support yourself and sustain, is that right? Yes, I have since been triggered. I started in Portland, Oregon. There was the riots and so, you know, and then I'm a caregiver as well and, you know, I've been traumatized at work especially in my current situation so so there has been I

have still experienced panic attacks and things like that but I am trying my hardest to be a working member of society again because I started working when I was 14. Yeah but what I'm trying to figure out is okay at the point that you were earning an income and you were functioning, at that point, prior to that, I understand not filing taxes, but from that point forward, which is about five years, why did you not file? Because you knew to. Yes, yes, yes. I was overwhelmed with the process. I had started several times looking into it, and then something would happen and I would stop working and have to move again

So there was a lot of okay. What is what has been your income through that five years? It's I honestly know but You know, it started out well and then I mean were you making thirty thousand or you making three hundred thousand? I was making at one point. I was making about a thousand a week delivering and that lasted for a few months and then it, you know, went down from there to about maybe two to 3000 a month. Have you gotten a phone call or a letter from the government asking for your taxes? Nope.

I have, I have not partly because I've been moving around a lot because I'm still homing whole actual things into care. The technical tactical answer to your question, which is not the answer to your problem, but it is the answer to your question, is to go to ramsaysolutions.com and click on tax ELP and get a tax CPA. If you come quote unquote out of the cold on your own and you come forward, they will not criminally prosecute you for not filing taxes. Not paying taxes is not criminal. Not filing taxes is criminally prosecuted. 2576 people, 2576 people last year got criminal prosecution for not filing. So you need to go file yesterday,

okay? And the process will sound like this. Sit down with the CPA and they will file three years and they'll help you reconstruct the last three years. You will owe the taxes for those three years. There is not tax forgiveness. There is criminal forgiveness. But there's not tax forgiveness. Oh, okay. Okay. Now there is back in the days when you were a pauper, but you're not a pauper now. You're not on social security. You're not, you know, you're making a quote unquote living. Okay, so...

Well, the problem is social security refuse to stop paying me because they thought I needed to pay off the debt. That's not a problem. Yeah, just a distraction. You catch the check. Yeah, just a distraction. I'm talking about, I'm talking about you're not poor. If you have zero money of any kind coming in and zero assets, you can get some tax forgiveness.

You don't qualify. So, I would not go up that. Right now I have zero income and I have about $500 in the bank. So, and I'm... I'm sorry, I thought you told me you had a job. I did, but I was fired because I'm bringing up these abuse accusations And so instead of investigating the abuse they're investigating me And so I'm trying to take care of this issue so that doesn't interfere with the abuse case that they're refusing to start

So it's a big mess Now you have to go get another job, right? Yes, okay you have to go get another job right yes okay yeah because since you're employable I think your answer to your question is you need to get three years tax returns file and then begin some kind of a repayment plan even if it's a dollar but get something going to get this monkey off your back because this is in the background worrying you along with all the other things that are chasing you it is I did do that and someone did reach out to me but it was

above my budget so I didn't know if there was any kind of program that could help me. No. Okay. Not that I'm aware of. Coming up with a repayment schedule is not a problem but you have to file the tax returns. Right. So yeah and you probably if you only have five hundred dollars to your name and you don't have a job today You probably don't file them this week But the sooner you file them the sooner you get rid of the criminal threat hanging over you

Okay, and it's not listen none of that's going to affect a job If you have a valid claim for abuse in the workplace You not piling your taxes is not a destruction of your character. The abuse either was criminal or civil in nature and it either happened or it didn't happen. Your taxes are an irrelevant variable in that discussion. Okay. So can we focus yeah. Yeah, focus is the word, because let's be very, very honest, okay? When you get triggered, leading up to those moments, when things just get real heavy,

there's usually several things spinning around at once, is that fair? I've been in a spin for over a weekend, sir. That's right. So here's what I want you to do. The only way around this spin is right through it. So let's write down those things that are causing us to spin up.

Do we owe taxes? It feels like I owe a million dollars. You don't, you don't owe a million bucks. You may not owe anything. Yeah, you may not owe anything because you may not have earned enough, but let's go right through that one. Let's put the next one down.

Let's write the next thing down. And some of those things, like Dave said, you gotta get a CPA, you gotta get somebody to walk with you through that. But the only way to peace here Let's write the next thing down. And some of those things, like Dave said, you've got to get a CPA, you've got to get somebody to walk with you through that. But the only way to peace here is through the middle of it. And man, you've got the help you needed, you want to be back earning a living and being up on your own, having autonomy.

That's amazing. I'm proud of you for that. And I hate that you got somewhere and got settled and then they treated you poorly. That's the worst, right? Yes. Yeah. But Dave and I believe in you, okay? Thank you. Yeah, and so what I want you to focus on is not, and just listening to you, and I'm just a guy, Dr. John's got the PhD, okay, but just listening to you, I want you to focus on the things you can control, not the things that happened in your rear-view mirror. The traumatic brain injury, the PTSD, the

former employer that was at a minimum a jerk, at a maximum of other things, okay. Those are not things you can control and if you spend all your rent, your rent in your brain, your calorie, your brain calories on things in the past you can't change, it keeps you from moving forward to things you can change which is get a job, get solid, get sustainable, get peace back in where your lights are paid, your food's on your table, you not got $500 again, okay? And then you can afford to fight these people if you want to. You may not want to at that point. It may not be worth it. I don't know. Well, what I'm fighting for is the other caregiver was abusing our client.

That's not, you don't have the money to be a crusader right now. I want you to crusade for Erica. There you go. I want you, I mean, Jenny. I want you to crusade for Jenny. I don't know who Erica is. I want you to crusade for Jenny. I want you to be the topic right now. So I'm more concerned about you than you crusading for some moral outrage in the society. You're not got the strength of the money to do that right now, kiddo. Yeah, let's get our housing taken care of and let's get those taxes filed and that will give you some peace right at your gate. Get you a job. Then if you want to pursue some moral outrage, let's do that. But moral outrage is taking up all your space right now, kiddo. That's what we heard when we're talking to you.

Welcome to you. Jamie and Kimberly are on the debt free stage right here in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. How are you? Doing great. Where do you guys live? We're in Greenville, South Carolina. Actually Anderson, South Carolina. Very nice. That's a beautiful area.

Love it over there. Greenville has done such a good job with their downtown. We start going over there before that and then have gone obviously since and it's just it's really beautiful they done a good job. Welcome to Nashville. Thank you very much. How much debt have you two paid off? $207,414. I love it and how long did that take? 25 months. 25? Whoa that's quick. And your range of income during that two years? I think we started at about 186, went all the way up to now 252. Wow, that's a nice jump in two years.

Yeah, we've been blessed. What do you guys do for a living? So I teach nursing, I'm a nurse in critical care and teach at Clemson. Okay. And I work in human resources. Okay, so just some really nice bumps in both careers, huh? Very blessed, yes.

Very cool, what kind of debt was the 207? It was everything Dave everything you teach us not to do. You were normal! You're normal people. We checked every naughty box that we shouldn't do. What were the naughty boxes? Let's talk about them. That's a very South Carolina way to put that. It's in the naughty box. It's in the naughty box. And here was Santa. So what were the naughty boxes? Tell us about them. Eleven credit cards, two car loans, a medical debt, a HELOC and a 401k loan. And a partridge and a pear tree. Yes, of course, I can tell.

Wow, guys, you did do it all. How long y'all been married? So we're a blended family. We're getting close to 10 years next April. Oh, okay, great. So you brought some of this together. We did. We did. And then added some more.

We did. So what happened 25 months ago that flipped the switch for y'all? So Kim's in the middle of her, well at the time was in the middle of doing her doctorate program, doctorate nursing practice leadership. And it just got too much, honestly for her,

I wasn't as involved in the finances as I should have been. So I took that on and realized that we were pretty much drowning in debt. And it overcame us and we're like, we got to do something. So we went through our church, New Spring Church in Anderson, and they offered FPU. We signed up, started shortly, right around Valentine's Day of 2023. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Good for you. And it was originally supposed to take us like four to five years to get out of debt and Jamie just led us through it and he said,

you know what, we're gonna do this in half that time. Dave, he cut me down to $20 a month for fun money. Oh, he didn't cut you down. He did. Nobody cuts you down. You volunteered for this. I can tell. $20 for eating out, nails, shopping. You volunteered and acted like he did it, I can tell.

All the things. Okay, so here's, I always. Y'all are awesome. I'm always perplexed by this. Y'all are both really smart people. How do really smart people end up under this almost a half a million dollars. Quarter million.

Of debt, I mean quarter million dollars of debt, yeah. I think not planning. Yeah, we had no plan. We had no concept, you know, it gets easy. We talk about that, you know, easy to hit that automatic pay button on things and when you don't have the money to charge it and worry about it later.

You know, it wasn't like we were really being extravagant or living extravagant lifestyles. It was just one poor decision after another of how to handle things that would come up Okay, so you averaged eight thousand dollars a month for two years on debt reduction. Did you sell stuff? Yes What was a big thing you sold sold a truck? What was that how much of that about twelve thousand? I think is what we got for the truck, okay? We actually we cashed in a whole life policy that we found out she had Okay, and then how much was that?

14 okay thousand and then I cashed in some stock from restricted stock and how much was that? That was another 15. Okay, so that's that's like 60,000 55,000 those things and the rest of it. You just got punched. Yeah. Yeah, we worked hard. I worked a couple jobs You can yeah, you worked a couple jobs. You can, yeah, you got a lot of access. I have a lot of opportunities to do that. And, you know, anything we could we sold and we lived really lean.

We had bargain food dates, didn't we babe? Yeah, we did. Like it. We would go and, you know, see how much groceries we could get for $100 at the Knock and Dent grocery store. I like that. It was fun. That's fun.

And you just made a game out of it. We did. And you said we're going to be free. Yep. We tried to make it fun. It's a tough thing to do. It sucks. It does.

And then we found creative ways to do things free. We did Family Fund Night, or actually what we call, our daughter calls, Forced Family Fund Night. Forced Family Fund. You got voluntold. We're doing Forced Family Fund. ways to do things free, we did family fun night, or actually what we call, our daughter calls forced family fun night. You got voluntold, we're doing forced family fun. A lot of cards, a lot of card nights, game nights, that sort of thing. How did y'all manage, y'all make good salaries? You're a professor at Clemson, you're an HR director.

People just assume when they walk out to the parking lot y'all gonna be driving a certain thing, and how did y'all navigate that? It's tough to tell your friends, like I'm not getting driving a certain thing. And how did y'all navigate that? It's tough to tell your friends, like I might get my nails done in South Carolina because that's what a Southern woman does, right? And I can't go get coffee with you guys. Or I'm not going to, not I can't, but I'm choosing not to.

How do y'all navigate that? That's tough. I think, you know, having, it really showed us who our true friends are, you know, being vulnerable and sharing our story with where we were at. I took not quite a 50% pay cut,

but a dramatic pay cut to leave the bedside and go to teaching. And we just didn't plan for it, so when we realized how significant it was, we really just reached out to our people and said, this is where we're at and we need your support and here's what we're gonna do. And they went on the journey with us.

You know, they said, I know you can't go out to eat. Do you wanna come over and have dinner tonight and bring your games? And you know, so we just did that with our people. And I think that, you know, it made us closer with them because we were vulnerable and they prayed over us and just really helped us. So we're fortunate to have these amazing people.

And of course, Mike and Becky are mentors for FPU and they were right there with us. So when the bills came up that were unexpected or whatever, we could call them and be like, what do we do? And Mike would always say, well, Dave would tell you to do. Go Mike, go baby. Those kind of things. So I think that really

helped a lot. Well that's a wonderful church y'all are a part of. I think I've spoken there if I recall and if it's where I'm thinking it is. I think all of it, the whole placement through FPU at one point. So that's pretty incredible. So congratulations y'all. How does it feel to be free? Amazing. Just the weight of the debt is off the shoulders. You just feel better. You wake up better. You wake up energized. That's kind of how it feels. That's it right there. That's the one. And of course as soon as we got debt free, then the enemy tries to creep in and we had an air conditioner that went out.

Which you know, that's not cheap. And then we had about $4,200 of medical bills that popped up, we had to pay those. And for the first time, he was like, not a problem. And it was just so freeing to know that, no matter what life throws at us, we have a plan that we're gonna get together and get through this, and we have our people praying for us.

And it's the lightest and most free you can feel. Amen. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? Get on the budget, pray, pray for God's wisdom and you know honestly get people in your corner so like we had family and friends, get them in your corner and really follow the plan and just stick to it. Don't make up your own plan.

That's right, use your plan. And that's how we did it. I'm the nerd, obviously, in the family. And in addition to every dollar, we also had spreadsheets that I'm like, okay, if I do this, then I know I can cut off this amount of debt and it's gonna take, instead of three years now, it's gonna take 25 months.

So, but just stick to it. It's amazing how math for us nerds can can translate to hope. Agreed. But there were so many times you know where I would pop up you know being like well if we did this it'd be better and he'd be like nope Dave says we need to do this so we're gonna stick to the snowball regardless of what the interest rate is on this or that and we just plugged at it and it was pretty crazy when we start writing those big checks to pay the bigger ones when you get to the end.

It's like, oh, this is crazy. I wake up at three in the morning sometimes and I check my bank account, see if the check cleared to the last credit card. That's awesome. Awesome. Yes. Well, no more of that.

Dave, a funny story that Jamie did, he likes candy. And I kid you not, one day, he's gonna kill me for telling this, but it's so funny, I promised a friend story that Jamie did, he likes candy. And I kid you not, one day, he's gonna kill me for telling this, but it's so funny, I promised a friend I would tell it, that he was so desperate to have some candy, he scrounged through his car to round up change, so he could go to the Dollar Tree. I've been there, brother, I've been there.

And buy him some lemon heads. I've been there. All right, it's Jamie and Kimberly, Greenville, South Carolina, 207,000 paid off in 25 months, making 186 to 252. Count it down, let's hear a debt free scream. All in baby. 3, 2, 1.

We're debt free! Yeah! Woo hoo hoo! That's how it's done ladies and gentlemen. Boom! That's how it's done ladies and gentlemen. Boom! Caleb is in Tallahassee. Hey Caleb, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Dave, thank you so much and thank you both. Thank you both for being a Christ-centered image of, you know, how our finances can look, you know, young or old, no matter where you're at. Dave, I did want to say, go Vols as well as a recent graduate from the University of Tennessee. Oh, wow! Very cool. What's your degree in? I have a degree in agriculture.

It took about 10 years. My father passed away when I was 19 years old. My only financial provider. Kind of got fed to the wolves early. I was playing college ball in North Carolina and had to give it all up. So Lord came through later in life to be able to provide the finances to get that done, even though I have a little bit of student loan debt. Now here we are. Okay. How can we help today, brother? You absolutely. so currently now 30

years old I've had two professional careers in my life one as a professional hunting guide and one of the real estate agent currently still a real estate agent the past three years I opened a branch office of my brokerage in the next county I have now been offered keys to the kingdom to buy everything that I built over here in this county. I now have my broker's license and looking to transition to the active broker. We manage about 65 rentals so we have a pretty good rental portfolio brings in about $6,500 a month. After we pay our bills you know for the office that we rent, my property manager

and just basic utilities, we bring in about a thousand dollars in profit a month, but the lights are on and it really helps with the sales portion of the real estate company as well. Would you purchase this business? Would you not? And how would you do it? I will give you a quick background on myself as far as financially debt wise. I have no credit card debt. I still drive a 2006 Duramax that's been paid off since I bought it. I only have about $200,000 in total debt with my home. And then I have again about $25,000 in student loan debt from the University of Tennessee. And what are you making as a real estate agent?

How much do you make? So for the past four years in a row I have gone from $90,000 to $125,000 in that kind of fluctuation. Taxable income? Correct, yes sir. Okay. And that's after splitting with your broker? That's correct. taxable income correct yes sir and that's after splitting with your broker that's correct

and what's your split eighty twenty and how many agents work in this office i have five agents that work in my branch office that will be transitioning over if i purchased the company as well and what do they make the branch listening over if I purchased the company as well. And what do they make the branch? One is relatively new. The other three, I would say, uh, gross commission.

They probably bring you an extra 30 or 40. I'm kind of the breadwinner here. Okay. And so this business makes $50,000 a year. Uh, the rental, the rental portfolio makes 12, makes 12. And these guys, and these guys make 30,000. So that's 42. You got it. 40 to 50,000 dollars a year. Because what you make you could go make somewhere else. That's right.

And that doesn't enter into the equation. That's right. I mean you're not going to buy the business based on what you produce for the business. That would be dumb. You are correct. You are correct. You are correct. All right. So what is he, what's the current owner offering to sell it for? So he's offered several different terms. 75,000 is what he is valuing the business at. So it can be a seller finance route or it could be whatever route that I find that could be

feasible. My goal to him was if I did any sort of financing that I would pray I could have it done in two years, three years at the absolute max. Yeah. Okay. All right. Can you guys help me? I don't know what you're buying.

He's buying an income stream, a business that is creating an income of $40,000. But that comes with people. Yeah, the people make the money and the rental portfolio that they manage makes money. Okay. A little bit, not much. But I mean, if you buy this for $75,000 and then two of these realtors quit.

Well, that's true of real business though. That's true, okay. I mean, if you buy a factory and all the workers quit. But you still bought the factory but I know but they still don't have the income. That's true. There's a few items that I could probably go away with to increase our rental income with that property management portfolio as well to generate anywhere from fifteen to two,000 a month of income from there. Here's what I would do.

I would offer him $60,000 and I'm going to pay you 100% of the profit of the business until we get to 60,000. Okay, 100% of the profit. Not counting you. That's right. You take your money and go home and eat with that during this year and during that year you get these sales people's button gear and you tighten up this rental property management thing that sounds like it's pretty loose. Your margins suck on that.

I think you can tighten that up a little bit and you're paying out way too much. I mean all this trouble you go to 65 rentals for a thousand bucks I'd shoot myself. That's 65 tenants you've got to screw with for a thousand dollars. Yeah, a profit. Oh yuck. Property manager takes care of what the property manager takes care of which means you have to take care of the property manager. So no, your margins suck dude, I'm in the business, okay? So anyway that's not the end of it. I think you can tighten this thing up raise your sales on your team hire some more people into the team to continue to sell hopefully this real estate market continues its healing process and and you tighten up the operations side on the rentals and

you can pay this guy in one year I like it I like it and just tell you I am NOT going our terms are you get 100% of the profits until we get to 60,000 it looks like that's going to be around a year that's our terms and if there's no profit because of whatever whatever thing we want to make up that's a calamity or a, then you don't know anything until you get to 60,000. He gets all the profits. Understood. Okay.

And so yeah, I teach people in Entrez leadership to do that plan all the time. It's not debt because you're not in, you know, the bank will put you out of business if you don't pay the payments. This, you got no payment if there's no profit. That's right. Okay. And so you knock it out really really really fast. I'm not giving them a lot of value here. A normal business I would give it more value on this cash flow but I'm with John you can go down the street and open up tomorrow. Most of

those agents would go with you and you probably if you didn't keep the 65 rental properties it probably in the end of the world because it's not really doing that much. Well the time you spent on those you could get one more sale of a house over the course of a year and get more commission than $6,000. Exactly this is a time drain for 12 grand so a lot of calories burned and I know you think the property manager is doing it all but they never do everything, okay? Someone has to lead the manager, and that's you. Well, I almost wonder if you fire the property manager

and you hire your own person and say, I'll pay you 100 grand to run these 65 houses. Well, the property manager now works for him. He's being paid out of that 6,500 a month, and that got him down to $1,000 a month. Yeah, that's part of it. So yeah, you don't have a hundred grand in profit to pay a property manager.

Dave, in this scenario, who owns all those 65 houses? Individuals, like you, a person went to a real estate company and asked them to manage it for them. Gotcha, okay. And they're the management company. Gotcha, okay. That's what they're doing. They're just collecting the rents.

You're probably getting 10% of the rentals. But they got 100% of the hassle. Yeah. For a thousand bucks. I would have thought, I mean, as a guy that doesn't have real estate portfolio, I would have thought having 65 homes that you're taking care of was way more than, I mean, 65, yeah, 6,500 real,

I just would have thought you were making way more on those houses. Yeah, wow. Okay, folks, if you're tired of living paycheck to paycheck and wondering where your money's going, our team is hosting a free budget training this month. You'll learn step by step how to make and stick to a budget using EveryDollar, the world's best and most robust budgeting app. Plus you can get your biggest budgeting questions answered in a live Q&A. Spots are limited. Sign up for free at everydollar.com slash webinar. These webinars are excellent.

If you really want to get control, you really want the money to behave. By the way that I mentioned it's freaking free. Okay, shut up. It's free. Go watch the webinar and get yourself together. Sign up for free at everydollar.com slash webinar. Free budget trainings all this month Good stuff. All right, John off air. Let me give you a full lesson on property management. I can't just kidding I can't wouldn't do that to my best friend. This is the Ramsey show Live from the headquarters of Ramsey solutions, it's the Ramsey Show.

We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Delaney, Ramsey personality, PhD in counseling, number one bestselling author. He's my co-host today. Open phones, a triple 8, 825-5225. Ryan is in Seattle hey Ryan what's up hey how you doing thank you guys for taking my call I appreciate that sure how can we help well I I'm in a bit of a jam I don't know how to get out of it about three years ago I had some parental issues that came up with my folks and I got injured at work for about a year and a half so I I was on the workers comp payments, but I got myself into about

$97,000 of credit card debt. I have a $32,000 personal loan. I have a $34,000 car loan and $18,000 in student debt. Everything's up to about $181,000 in debt. And I, you know, my mortgage is at 767,000. I just don't know how to get out of it. I can't get a loan to consolidate because- Doesn't matter, you can't borrow your way out of debt. Well, I was hoping to consolidate- It's mathematically impossible to borrow your way out of debt.

Okay, so what do you make? My base is about 140,000 a year. With my overtime, I make about $180,000 to $220,000. And you're single? I have a stepson and a girlfriend that lives with me. You don't have a stepson if you're not married? Well, he's living with me and she's living with me. Your girlfriend's kid and your girlfriend live with you. Right. Okay, alright.

Just making sure I understand what's going on. Alright. The, and does she work? She does. And what does she make? She makes about 60, 70 thousand a year. So she can support herself. Correct.

So I'm talking to a single guy who makes 180 grand and owes 180 grand. Yes. Okay. What was the nature of your injury at work? I broke my foot so I was out for about a year and a half with two different surgeries and before that my parents I thought the property that I bought was about 811,000 that I financed. The parents were gonna live with me. Oh, you have a property. Do you have a property now? I do, yeah. Oh, what's it worth?

1.1. And what do you owe on it? 7.67. Sell it and get out of debt. I can't, my credit's too low. No, you don't have to have credit to sell a property. But for me to buy another property, you have to have credit to sell a property. But you have to have credit to buy a property. Right. I wouldn't qualify for anything.

I don't care. Go rent. Yeah. Rent for a while, man. But the amount of money that I would have to pay off then, and then all the money I'd have to move and the cost of the moving expenses, how would I, how would I get all that? Honey, 1.1 minus 700 minus 180

gives you some moving money and you make 200 grand a year dude you spend like you're in Congress and you rationalize like you're in Congress here's the thing I don't like I hear the desperation in your voice but also you're you're pushing back on every single thing we put out there. What's the deeper issue here? The other option is this. Live on beans and rice and pay $140,000 a year onto this debt and you are debt free in a year and a half. And you have absolutely no freaking life.

You've been living like you make twice what you make. And walking around, strutting around like you act like it's okay it ain't okay it's stupid part of that is because I was on workers cop and I didn't I didn't have my full income coming in I know but you cut you make a hundred and eighty thousand freaking dollars I just don't live like I know but go live like a normal person

and pay this debt off and sell in a year and a half yeah sell your car so your stupid but car. And if you're not willing to do all that and you wanna get out really fast, sell your stupid house. It's just a stupid house. Get you another one later when you get your act together. But you don't want any pain.

You don't want anything to change. You don't wanna sacrifice. Oh no, no, I'm paying for it. Like all my money that I'm getting, every single dollar I'm getting, I'm putting straight towards credit cards that I'm getting, every single dollar I'm getting and putting straight towards credit cards. I just started listening to your book and I've already paid off two credit cards. I got one more that I'm paying off.

How much is that? How much is your pay off? The last one I just paid off was $2,476. And what was the other one? I paid half of a PayPal credit card and I'm going to pay the other half this week. How much? $1,000. $3,000.

Okay, so you paid off $3,000 in what period of time? In the last four weeks. Four weeks, okay, in one month. So if we annualize that, that's $36,000 out of $180. It's not exactly stepping, dude. Yeah. Yeah, but I also have a personal one that I'm paying eight hundred and seventy dollars on I can't sell my credit card

I can't sell my car because I'll be upside down on fourteen thousand dollars when you get to hurting enough Ryan you're gonna figure this out but you're not hurting enough yet okay we just told you four things you could do and none of them suits you so I can't sell my car I can't sell my car, I can't sell my house, I can't do this, I can't do that. Dude, you can, you can do all that and when you decide you want to get out of this. And here's how we know because both Dave and I have done it. Yeah, it's very possible dude. You make a ton of money, you have this huge million dollar freaking house, you own a million dollar house man. I mean really. So people listening across America are

going I got no mercy for this dude. Dave's being light on him and I feel like I'm coming down on you. But seriously, dude I want you to be free but I want you to be free more than you want to be free right this second because you are not willing to cut loose some stuff to get free. So cut loose the car, cut loose the lifestyle, cut loose the not stepson and his mother, and cut loose some stuff to get free. So cut loose the car, cut loose the lifestyle, cut loose the not-stepson and his mother, and cut loose some stuff and get your life back. Because you've given your life away and the way you get it back is you're going to have to give up some stuff. You mentioned this a few times. You broke your foot and you were out for a year from work.

It's as though the world of math and the world of reality and the world of math and the world of reality and the world of debt and the world of repayment and slavery none of that should apply for a while because you had an injury and the crummy thing is is the world keeps moving right it just keeps going on and so I hate that for you and now you're back and it stinks like hey man now that I got this big fancy job and I've been out for a year on benefits I hated that I want to spend like I'm catching up You can't you got a huge hole you got to get yourself out of man if you start applying Eight to ten thousand dollars a month to this debt not three thousand dollars a month

Including making your payments you're gonna see it magically start to go away If you're not willing to cut your life that deeply, then you need to stop your 401k at work. You need to make sure your withholding is correct. You need to quit investing, you need to quit saving. Take any money that's in savings and throw it at this debt. If you're not willing to do all that, a quick fix is to sell the stupid house. Both of those things will work, and yes, the car needs to be sold. You're a broke guy driving a forty thousand dollar car and

so you know figure out a way to come up with the difference and get the things sold. Of course you're upside down. I mean that's just in the line of other things that you did. I've done dumber things than you've done honey but there comes a point you wake up and you go I've got a sacrifice to be winning and it's going to hurt. Getting well is going to hurt. But not getting well is going to hurt more. So you got to make a decision. The faster you cut into this, the deeper you cut into this, the faster you're going to get out. That's the formula and that's what we could see immediately and because we're not emotionally

attached to all these decisions. Good luck with it brother. I hope you make the turn. This is the Ramsey Show. Andrew's in San Jose. Andrew, how are ya? I'm good, alright. Dave, John, thanks for taking my call. Sure, man. What's up? So, I was wondering what you thought. I'd like to take out $75,000 in student loan to get a bachelor's in construction management, but there's one caveat, which is that because I am a DACA recipient,

I am not qualified for a majority of scholarships that are out there or any kind of federal assistance. Please don't do this, Andrew. Please, please, please don't do this. Okay. I'm sorry, help me. John, what's a DACA? It's a long story, but he is not a naturalized citizen, but he's lived here his whole life. And so he's a it long story but he is not a naturalized citizen he lived here his whole life

and so he's a recipient go college to u.s. college uh... but doesn't qualify for a lot of aid packages that are reserved for citizens only gotcha okay non-catch and so if you want to go into construction management yeah so there's a trade school here locally that also has an online college okay i'd basically do an electrician degree and then that turns into a bachelor's in construction management. Okay, so hear me say this.

I want you to go learn how to be an electrician and I want you to learn construction science. I desperately want that because you're going to be one of the most in-demand people in the next five to ten to twenty-five to fifty years, okay? That's a wonderful career field I do not want you to get seventy five thousand dollars in the hole okay what do you do now currently I'm a graphic designer for a sign company okay and so what made you pick construction so I mean I'm 29 and for the longest time I didn't know what I wanted to do and then I went on a tour of this trade school and the courses

that they have available and it just clicked like it just it seems like something that it's with my hands but it requires math and and you know technical skill which is something that I gravitate towards okay and obviously because I have a son and a wife it's got to make money too. Yeah. Have you gone down and check out the local community college in your area that probably offers the exact same program for nothing? There's a JC in my area that gives me the certificate for electrician, but I'd have to go to further out, like a two-hour it to make it into anything that's higher education and here's a hundred percent of the time you do not need a

degree to be in construction management a hundred percent chance what you do need is the skills to be there one way to get the skills is to go study it the way you're talking about studying it. Another way is be doing it on the job and learn. That's how most people in construction learn construction management. They do construction, not graphic arts. So go get a job in the construction field, dude. Okay, yeah.

Work your way, get in with an electrician that'll put you in an apprentice program. Yeah, get your free certification there. Get in an apprentice program, become an electrician, and then move from there and start working with the GCs in the area and take on some project manager roles on some small basic stuff and let them teach you construction management. Construction management is not rocket science, okay? It's logistics and math, what you found when you were doing that what you ran into was a trade school that had a really good salesman and a shiny shiny shop and it made it look like this was going to be a thing but listen it's project management and just in talking to you I think you could do it almost now you're bright

okay you're a smart guy except for this part about by biting on the $75,000 hook I think you got a little lip little thing stuck in your lip right there, it's a hook. And so, but yeah, but no, dude, really, go get in the construction business. I grew up in the real estate and construction business. I love it. And I think it's something that AI can't touch. So you're not gonna get replaced by a stupid computer.

And I chat, GTPT can't spell construction management. And I can, I promise you in 10 years, they're not gonna say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I know you can wire up this entire project, but we need to see that certification. No one's gonna have time. Well you can get, you can run through an apprentice program and become a certified electrician, but you do not need a construction management degree. I'm sitting in a building that cost 60 million dollars to build. This portion of this building goes 60 million dollars. The guy that built this building working for a commercial construction company did not have a construction management degree.

Okay. That's what I'm saying. Okay. What he did was he swung a hammer and he dug ditches and he wired stuff and he did whatever and he learned project management and you can take some project management courses and there's some basic things to learn about that that everybody ought to know for that matter because everything's a freaking project running a wedding is a project so I mean whatever it is right so you know there's nothing nothing bad about that but you pick that up the community college don't be hunting certifications as a silver bullet to

make your life successful go look for for skills. Skills that you can put literally in this case and figuratively in your tool belt. I want to double-click on that because I think that might be one of the more profound shifts that's coming our way. And that is we have been told for a hundred years to go get certified, go have somebody else stamp you, whether it's an outside credential, whether it's an outside, and colleges have responded to this by coming up with credentials on any number of things that have never been credentialed. Left-handed puppetry.

Everything is credentialed, right? So I'm a certified left-handed puppet, whatever. So here's the deal. In the future that we are entering into right now, people are gonna ask, can you do this thing? So don't go get certified in how to sit with hurting people. Go figure out ways to sit with hurting people. Don't get certified in how to fill in the blank.

Go learn how to do that thing because that's gonna be the new currency because their certification stuff is gonna get winnowed out with the internets, with the computers. I'm convinced of that, Dave. Can you do the thing? Well, I mean, we've already seen the beginning.

Number one, the trades have never done that. Number two, the new version of the trade called tech, we got 460 tech people working here. The number of them that have four-year degrees in information systems is almost zero. But the number of them have lots of certs and have gone to classes and know how to code, gone to code school.

They learned the skills. They have to learn the skills. They learn the skills. And I don't care what their certification is. What I care is can you code? Can you build a platform for the code to sit on? Can you create a customer interface? How fast can you do this at a Dev1, Dev2, or Dev3 level? Are you really quick or are you just slurring Christmas? I'm the employer, I'm the guy writing the check.

So I'm telling you, you don't have to have a certificate. I have a degree in salesmanship. I don't care. Can you sell something? That's what's going to matter. The only thing that means is you got sold Doesn't mean you ever sold anything so yeah, that's the chase the essence and chase skills And this is coming from John who has a PhD in higher education And I used to tell like don't get a PhD in leadership go lead something go ask for increased leadership Responsibility so that you can get moved up the ladder in these areas and increase your influence because you know how to do the thing, not because you can wave

a certificate around and say, look, somebody else says I can do this thing. Yeah, I had a fun discussion with Jim Collins at Entrez Leadership Summit last week. We were talking, maybe on stage in the interview, but certainly off stage. We talked about it too, I remember. He told me the story. He was teaching entrepreneurship at Stanford and, um, you know, a guy kept saying, yeah, but are you, that's a great critique, great critique. And that's what caused him to leave and go open his own for practice,

for profit research firm that led to the book, Built to Last, Good to Great, Great by Choice, How the Mighty Fall, all these masterful works that are based on his masterful research that he did for-profit because he decided, if I'm going to teach entrepreneurship, I probably ought to be one. I find it no small coincidence that most of the teachers that I had that were of high influence for me professors were either theologians that also led small churches at the same time or they were mental health professors that also had practices or working in the communities doing the thing because they

got to tie the practice into that knowledge and then you get a much better it the passion jumps into the students, right? Yeah, who was it taught me to go into debt? My finance professor, who was broke. He was broke. What's wrong with a broke finance professor? That's like a shop teacher with missing fingers.

I mean, come on. You ain't one. You ain't one until you is one, right? Oh my gosh, this is how this works. So yeah. Chase skills, chase skills, chase skills. Listen, I believe in education. Being dumb is not a plan. I do too. I believe in going to college, but chase skills. I believe in education. Being dumb is not a plan.

I do too. I believe in going to college. I believe in gathering up knowledge. But the silver bullet is your gathering of knowledge and the application of it in the marketplace, not the piece of paper that said you did it. If all you do is collect degrees, you're a thermometer. Well, we love folks joining us in the lobby at Ramsey Solutions. We love them joining us on the debt-free Scream stage, and we really love it when they're one of our own team members. That's like super fun, except for the part where 900 members of Ramsey stand in the lobby not working to cheer them on. You people all get back to work, what's wrong with you? Per hour cost in his mind right now.

That's awful, yeah. All right, so Randall and Renee are with us. Randall is a senior product designer here on the Ramsey Real Estate Trusted team, Ramsey Trusted Real Estate team. Been here about four years, right? That's correct. So very cool. All right, so we're not gonna team. Been here about four years, right? That's correct. So very cool.

All right, so we're not gonna ask your incomes like we traditionally do, because all your peers are standing around. That would be unfair. But Renee, what do you do? I'm a homeschool mom, and I also tutor for our classical conversations to co-op. Oh, very cool, very cool.

All right, good stuff. So together y'all make a million dollars a year. Yes. Yeah. Got it done in no time. That all right, good stuff. So together y'all make a million dollars a year. Yes, yes. Yeah. Got it done in no time. That's right, no time. Yeah, John, if I said that, that would be called a promise. No, I'm not saying that.

Oh, there you go, sorry. So. All right, so how much did you guys pay off? So $118,155.80. Whoa. Love it, how long did this take, guys? Five years and one month. I love it, very cool.

All right, and you've been here four years. That's correct. So you started on this journey and then come to work here. How weird is that? It was a little bit weird, especially when it was at the beginning of 2021, you were putting out the call for creatives to apply

on the radio and she's like, you have to apply right now. And I was like, okay, hang on, let's think about that for a second. And, but then I warmed up to the idea, applied, made it through the extensive. Did y'all move from somewhere to come here for the job? From Minnesota.

Okay, all right. At the tail end of all the COVID stuff out there. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, we're outta here. All right, cool. Well, welcome to Nashville. And four years later, you've been sitting in this environment paying off 118,000.

What kind of debt was it? So a mixture of mostly student loans, so like 96,000 student loans, a couple of credit cards, personal loan, car loans, all the normal things. Yeah, how long y'all been married? 22 years. Okay, wow. So what happened in the year before you came to work here,

five years ago that started you on this whole journey getting out of debt? So in 2019 at the end of the year, we started receiving letters for collections for our student loans We were ten thousand dollars behind on payments. Whoa. Yeah, and I Got the letter and I didn't tell him I hid the letter because he had a lot of anxiety and depression and just really struggling mentally with the debt. And then January we got another letter and I realized it's not going to go away.

So I have to tell him. And I did. And then within a couple weeks we went church, and a very sweet couple, Matt and Krista Hammond, got up and did a testimonial about paying off a hundred and, I think 30,000 in debt, or 180,000. Sounds like us, yeah. Yeah, but they did it in three years,

and I looked at Randall and I said, we have to take FPU. And so, our class was supposed to start March 2020. Oh, of course. Yes. And we got- So many things that didn't start in March of 2020. Yes. And we got one in-person class

and then from then on we did it over Zoom and it pretty much took one class and I was obsessed and just like got on board, started listening to the show every single day, three hours, four hours a day. I was listening to all the back episodes and I was like, we are doing this, we're gazelle intense. It took him a little bit longer to.

Yeah, it was another like six months for me before I started seeing the pinprick of light at the end of the tunnel. I was in a really dark place before all that, so. And then somewhere around that six month mark, you hear me on the radio go, we're hiring creatives and she went, yeah. Load up the truck, we're headed to Beverly, baby.

Exactly. Wow, very cool. You didn't have any facial hair when you started this journey, did you? I did. I started that in Minnesota, It was to keep my face warm because it was brutal up there. Okay. All right. So what is it like, tell the truth, to work with people at Ramsey while you're trying to do this? I can't imagine

a better environment to try to accomplish this than working here. Like it's the weirdest thing when you're, you're like literally everybody talks about their finances. Oh yeah, we've got this, I've got so much debt. It's, you know, we're working on it, it's for paying it off, it's fine. And like everybody's just really open about it and it's super supportive.

And like every time you're like, oh, I had to, you know, this setback and like, well, just get back on the horse and like, you're gonna nail it. And you know, it's so rewarding just from that standpoint that literally everyone's behind you. Every month we have the walk the talk thing with Jade getting up on stage. You're just motivated all the time

to make sure that you're getting there. Wow. Well, they are all out here to cheer for you. I was making fun of them, but I'm proud of them for cheering for you because you did it. I'm proud of y'all. Thank you.

Who was cheering you on other than work compadres? Randall's parents. They were probably our biggest cheerleaders, our biggest support. They helped us a lot, so we couldn't have done it without them. They're here with us today. Oh, good.

They came all the way down. From Minnesota? No, they're from Dustin, Florida. Oh, okay, came up. Okay, well that'll work too. Yes. All right, cool. Tell us about these two boys over here.

Theron is 15 and Elias is almost 12. I can see that y'all definitely held back on haircuts. Wow. A lot of scissors at home. Sound like an old redneck. I call him a hippie all the time. No, it looks great. Hey, I'm jealous, man.

I can't grow my hair like that. I don't make hair jokes. It's a rule. So what was the hardest part about telling your boys no? Just we had to take them out of Taekwondo. We, you know, they can go to church camps. They couldn't, we couldn't go to amusement parks, which we are from Florida.

So we went to amusement parks a lot back in the day. Couldn't go to state fairs and county fairs. So for that, that was the hardest part, not getting to go out to eat. We went, part of our getting out of debt celebration was going out to eat, and that was a brand new experience. So they're celebrating big time. Oh yeah.

They have a life now. Oh yeah. They're both wearing shoes now finally. Yeah. That's awesome. Mom and dad paid a price to get them. Yeah. That's awesome. Mom and dad paid a price to get them here. Way to go y'all. Way to go, I'm proud of you.

Good, good work. Very, very cool. All right, now the question we ask everybody, what's the key to getting out of debt? You paid off 118,000, you stuck with it for five long years to do it and now you're free. I would say work. It's not gonna happen if you have a tiny shovel

and you're just gonna sit back and expect it to happen. Like you said, you don't fall into debt. So for me, the first couple years I did everything I did shipped, I did Instacart, I did DoorDash, I did Etsy Shop, I did online evaluations, I did everything I could. And then 2021 and 2022 I had ay shop, I did online evaluations, I did everything I could. And then 2021 and 2022, I had a neck injury, had to get two neck surgeries

and I couldn't work for two years. And so that's why it ended up taking as longer than we expected. And once I got through all of the recovery on that and I could actually work again, I said, I'm done. Beginning in 2024, I said, I'm sick of this, we're gonna get done. I got a full-time job as an online pickup clerk

at Kroger High Pickup Team. And I tutored for homeschool co-op and I homeschooled. So it was just like work, work, work constantly. And it was less than a year later, we got a debt. So. Way to go, yeah. I would also add to that, to everybody listening, don't wait to start.

Like I was in like a hopeless place, but after we started, like there's so much more hope on the other side of that. So don't wait to start. It does start with a pinprick of light and then it gets larger and larger. Yeah. Yeah.

And it starts to be just a real light at the end of the tunnel that's not a train. Yeah. That's good. And I heard this recently, that thing you just said, when you're in a hopeless place, places no hope, that remembering hope is an action.

It's that first step. So start the class, right? What was the church you were going to in Minnesota? Crossroads in Hastings, Minnesota. Yeah, okay. Cool. Very cool. Well, hats off to those guys for offering the financial peace university class

Thank you. Well done. All right, Randall and Renee. All right, get the guys up here We want to see them on camera they get to scream because they too are free now and Good stuff. Very good. I like it. I like it good. All right Randall and Renee Theron and Elias Our own team right here 118,000 paid off in five. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt-free! Yeah! Love it!

Man, that's powerful. Way to go, you guys. Proud of you. Proud to have you on this team. This is The Ramsey Show. Big news, there's another chance to get away with your spouse at the Money and Marriage Getaway. It is back for Valentine's Day weekend. Goes on sale today. You can spend three incredible days in Nashville with Dr. John Deloney, Rachel Cruz learning the tools to strengthen your connection, deepen your intimacy and more.

Again, Dr. John Deloney, Rachel Cruz, February 12th through 14th. Goes on sale today. Early 12-14 goes on sale today. Early bird pricing right now. Tickets start at only $7.49 a couple. You can get your tickets for the lowest prices before they end at ramsaysolutions.com slash getaway or click the link in the show notes. And also there's a money and marriage getaway still available in November. November 6-8 it is almost sold out. So we put the February date, the Valentine's Day date on sale today. Our question of the day is brought to you by WhyRefi. Some lenders won't touch defaulted private student loans, but WhyRefi was built for this exact problem. They'll explore refinancing options with a low fixed rate custom

built deal for your situation. Visit whyrefi.com slash Ramsey that's the letter Y R E F Y dot com slash Ramsey might not be available in all states. Oh boy buckle up I just read through this question Dave this is the part of the show after 30 years where we get canceled. Today's question comes from Jeff in California. Our dog has had some hefty vet bills recently. Oh boy. It's got my wife and me wondering

what is the maximum amount we should spend to save his life? We're Baby Step 7, we make 127K a year, but could use some help on how to think through if we have to make this tough decision. Oh Dave. I have a dog that I like more than most of you. Me too.

I have two of them. I have a third dog that I can't stand dumb in a box of hair, but I love the other two. Yeah. I've had 11 or 12 dogs in my life and they are the favorite things I've ever had. I just love dogs. My dog, I've got a little Havanese bear dog, it's about 12 pounds. Well legend has it that the Havanese bear dog will protect you from bears and I think legend is true because I've not seen a single bear since I got it. So there you go. So we go for a walk we did five miles on the golf course this

morning at 5 a.m. and the dog is trained to come sit. It's beautiful. It's a wonderful dog and I truly prefer this dog to most people. Yes. I really do. It is however a dog. It's not my grandchild if you ask this question about my grandchild how much would I spend all the money I've got all of it all the money I've got and then some okay this is an animal that I love dearly but it

is an animal and I will tell you being the old guy here whose wife grew up on a farm and therefore you eat Bessie that you bottle-fed six months ago and then you shoot Bessie and you eat her so there you go she's got no attachment to these things it's a dog it doesn't even care that I like the dog so you got to cut she keeps a perspective on this thing so but what we've observed with people that love their animals like we do is that it becomes about us instead of the dog. That's it right there. And we spend $8,000 to keep the dog alive while the

dog is suffering and it's not fair to the dog. Amen. And that's what usually happens around this kind of question. Yep, and I could fall prey to that too I just explained this to you my I mean I'm about to cry just talking about it, but no the seriously Yeah, I man. I've put them down. I mean we've had them send them to heaven and But I mean we had one that When the kids were little I got spinal bifida So at eight months old the dog can't walk and the vet says uh 2500 bucks we can do a back surgery and the dog probably will still not walk and it will be in

pain and I'm like so why are we the 2500 bucks isn't the point the point is do we do it what are we doing to this dog and why is this what's this for right this is for the children to watch it to make our children watch a dog suffer. Well, that's dumb. And so, you know, you just kind of have to get past this thing of we don't get to play God and keep them alive. They have a lifespan of 10, 12 years maybe, or whatever they live, and so we outlive 10 or 12 of them if you live to be 70 years old. And so you kind of got to get that built into the system here

and not put the poor animal through suffering because you're a big baby and you can't cry. But I've sat there and cried, sobbed while the vet puts one of them down. But that requires more courage than prolonging the dog's life and letting it suffer. It's honoring that animal. Now if we can actually Fix the animal well sure we would spend some money on it And that would be the percentage of money you spend on that would be you know if you have some money Do I go $14,000 in debt to put new hips into a Labrador retriever? No you do not

If you if you that if you don't have the $14,000 you're going into debt to do it No, and you're't have the $14,000, you're going into debt to do it. No, and you're not buying a $14,000 car either with that. I'm not going to tell you to do that either. It's a dog. And so, oh, well, that's your unkind. Oh, well. You know, just go ahead and whatever hate mail you want to add to the Ramsey file, just put it out there on Reddit or wherever it is you people do what you do have at it

but um You know most of the time this is about the person not the dog. Yeah, I Here's what I think and this is this is gonna make me sound equally on the other psychs super soft. I think dogs are one of the greatest gifts to humankind and I made a Commitment to my dog, my very first dog I had of my own. I tell you this, probably the top 10 hardest I've ever sobbed in my life was in that room

when I put that dog down. It takes me two seconds, I can get choked up on that. And the commitment I made as a new dog owner when I was 20 years old was, I'm always gonna do what's right by this dog, not what's right by me. And so what you mentioned, the dog got sick and hey, we can do this, we can keep it going here, and we can do that. That's not the dog I had. The dog I had was a maniac and loved being out and loved chasing stuff and

to steal that from that dog so that I don't have to have a really challenging, tough experience and weeks of grieving and all. That you're gonna have anyway. I'm gonna have it anyway. Right. It's just dishonoring. The dog is not gonna outlive you. It's dishonoring. Unless something's wrong. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. So I'm a big believer in honor that animal and Yeah, and they've gotten so sophisticated with vet medicine now It's almost they can do like the surgeries they do on people they can do on these dogs now So they can prop them up and prolong them and all that. It's just dishonoring to that animal.

You get a puppy just mark the calendar. You got 10 or 12 years. Yeah. Or eight. Yeah. Or depending on the dog. Right. And how screwed up their bloodline is, but yeah, how inbred they are.

But the, you know, it's just that- They're an amazing gift, man. But they're here for a short time. This dog I've got is two years old and it's just now got its brain grown in. I mean, the dog did not have a brain. It was ridiculous and now it's turned into the smartest animal, one of the smartest animals I've ever had, but I've worked that dadgum animal man. It's unbelievable and I love this dog I'm telling you, but I'm already, I'm 64. I'm gonna outlive this dog and I got to deal with that right now

you know when I'm sitting here talking about this so It breaks my heart Jeff so Number one rule is you don't go into if you have to go into debt. It means you can't afford it number two rule is and more important than number one is is the dog suffering and this is for you and I gotta tell you 90% of the questions I've taken on the air about this or that issue That's where it boils down to it becomes about the human rather than the dog. And it just requires great courage to bring an end to something. And courage doesn't mean you don't cry.

Right. Courage means you have the courage to cry. Yeah, there's that too, at length. So any of you... Now this is not the George Campbell sell the horse show. If you want to add to that, you have to go to a different hate page to add to that one. George has all the horse people in America torn up. It's the anti-equine association. Anti-equine. George is the president.

The charter president of that group. Anti-equine. We need a logo for that one. Just a horse with a line through it. I love it. George isn't even here to defend himself, but he will when he gets here. Oh man. Oh, it's fun.

Hey guys, this is fun. And it's this idea of, you know, what happens with money is it gets tangled up in all your values. Yeah, and emotions, yeah. And your emotions. And get used to that. It's in your relationships, it weaves into that. And stuff like, you know, how long we let a dog die, how long we let a dog live, you know, and what's good for the puppy.

So love your dog well, that's the point so love your dog well that's the point love them so well that you don't ask them to suffer for you this is the ramsey show live from the headquarters of ramsey solutions it's the ramsey show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, PhD in Counseling, he's my co-host today. James is in Allentown, Pennsylvania, if I push the right button I'll get him. James is in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Hey James, how are you? Hey Dave, how are you doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up? I love to hear it. So, four years ago we were on our annual beach vacation and we found out that we were pregnant. And we celebrated and danced the night away. Unfortunately that pregnancy ended in miscarriage and then we had two more miscarriages. That was three years ago. And now we have a beautiful baby girl. Yay! Yeah, yeah but now our friends our friend group from that vacation there's about 40 people they want us to bring our baby

back to that beach when we brought our baby home, I quickly realized that we were broke and broke people don't go on vacation. Um, our friends dared us to call you. They said that given the emotional gravity of the situation that you would violate the rule of broke people don't go on vacation. Absolutely. I won't. Not a chance. I knew you would say that. Not a chance. And hey listen, my wife and I went through miscarriage one, two, and then three, and then ended up with the light of my life Josephine. And I'll tell you,

the emotions are heavy and the grief is real and math doesn't care Yeah, now does it make a difference that they are paying for it but that going on that vacation would still take us away from Earning it would take us away it would violate the like okay something's wrong. I either have a glitch in my computer screen or you do in your brain because my computer screen says should we do it if we can pay for it in cash. You're telling me that they're going to pay for it covering expenses? So which is it? What you told my phone screener or what you're telling us? Yeah so they're going to pay the lodging, they're gonna

pay for and we have the fruit of the poisonous credit card tree that we can use to pay for the flight, the point, but you know incidentals add up and we have the cash to pay for that. But we also have... How much debt do you have honey? How much debt do you have honey? $40,000. And what is your household income? $89,000 a year. Okay. And you've been married five years and you're 27?

Yeah, we've been together for like 15 years. How old are you? We're 40. Oh my gosh, I missed it. Okay. All right. Um, we do have like, um, a small commercial real estate portfolio and that commercial real estate pool

portfolio has about $600,000 in equity and we have a few tenants though. Our friends think we're rich. Our, our friends think we're rich, but we know that we're broke so you know how much debt that between the two commercial properties we have a two hundred thousand dollar mortgage though and that's the only debt you have yeah we have 40 in what consumer debt I'm sorry yeah that's right and what's the forty thousand dollars in consumer debt it Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's right. And what's the $40,000 in consumer debt? It's like a Rustbucket truck that we need to get rid of and it's three credit cards one for our business and two personal credit cards

Mm-hmm. They're all personal Yeah, pretty much They don't give a business like yours credit cards. They're personal you sign for them. You personally guaranteed them. They're personal. Um, yeah, you're right. Yeah And now it's not just them that want us to bring the baby to the Pacific Northwest But also her mom wants us to bring the baby to Arizona So there's I know listen listen listen at some point you've got to decide what you're gonna do You gotta take control of your life stop letting other people drive I don't you know her mom and friends from a beach dance 15 years ago At some point you've got to decide what you're going to do. You've got to take control of your life. Stop letting other people drive at you.

Her mom and friends from a beach dance 15 years ago, they just don't get a vote in your future, man. I mean, I'm sorry. You've got to decide what you're going to do. As for me and my house, we're getting out of debt. And we're not going to rationalize it and justify it with a bunch of stinking airline points and then you go down there and before you know it you've dropped a grand in cash and you instead of getting out of debt. See the reason you've still got this debt hanging around while

you're sitting on this ridiculously large portfolio is because you're concentrated on it and this example is one more time that y'all didn't concentrate on it. So you make plenty of money and you didn't tell me how much you've paid off already which means you haven't that's what that means and so no you do what you want to do you're 40 years old I think you can make a decision but if I'm a dad of a baby and I'm sitting here I'm broke and I'm trying to get out of debt I'm gonna do the right thing for my family the rest of these people don't get a vote and so the right thing for your family is to get your freaking act together. And that includes not rationalizing Arizona trip or beach

dance trip. And so if you live like no one else you can Arizona your butt off later and dance on the beach all you want man you know later you know but you're gonna have to get at some point you're gonna have to get at some point you're gonna have to get the cart before the horse yeah I mean horse before the car I've just been this exact situation man and it's devastating and it doesn't give you I think that I think that's we took a call in an earlier hour about this because this bad thing happened that means we should be able to do what we want to kind of cosmically make up for it.

And that's how people dig themselves into deeper and deeper and deeper holes. And so, brother, I have been in your exact shoes and- I deserve. What you deserve to do is you deserve to be a grownup and make your decision. That's it, man. And based on that, take the consequences.

But what I'm observing in this phone call is a lack of focus and other people have way too much vote in your life. That's what I'm observing in this phone call is a lack of focus and other people have way too much vote in your life That's what I'm observing. So deserve what do you want to deserve? It's up to you Choose your heart as dr. John Delaney says you need to choose which hard you want If you continue to screw around with this stuff and just bounce around all over the place and rationalize it Then you're gonna get what you signed up for and math doesn't take a break It doesn't take a break. It doesn't take a break. So you do what you want.

Your friends lose the argument though. Dave said, don't go. And so did his sidekick. There's that. The guy in the side motorcycle cart. Yeah. Here's the thing, guys. What we're teaching and what we've talked about is for 30 years

and what Sharon and I did and what John and Sheila did and Jade and Sam and George and Whitney and Rachel and Winston. What we did was we lived like no one else. So that later we could live and give like no one else. People didn't understand that we wouldn't go out to eat. They didn't understand that we wouldn't go on vacation. They didn't understand that we made good money and drove a piece of crap car. But we weren't taking a poll. We were living on principles, not on

Instagram videos to make everybody think your life's better than it is while your life sucks. We were burning it down baby. It was beans and rice, rice and beans. No discipline seems pleasant at the time but it yields a harvest of righteousness. You pay a price to win and if you don't you pay the price of mediocrity. So when you're in baby step two, you know I was on CBS morning show and I'm coaching this couple. I made this woman cry because she wanted to go on a timeshare vacation while they're sitting on $65,000 worth of student loan debt.

And I'm like, no, sell the stupid timeshare and get free extra jobs and get your stuff. She starts crying on the TV. And so Dave's a butthole. But you know, what Dave wants is Dave wants you to be free so you can have your best possible life because I love you. But I love you so much, I'm tell you the truth this is the Ramsey show Craig is in Miami hey Craig how are you? I'm well yourself better than I deserve what's up? I have a question about I'm almost 59 years old and I have a

question about investing my 401k I'm currently unemployed and I have a question about, I'm almost 59 years old and I have a question about investing my 401k. I'm currently unemployed and I have 401k. And I'm wanting to know at that age, how you do that. Do you do that in mutual funds or ETFs or is there something else I should be considering? Okay. Why are you unemployed? I was laid off about a year ago. What are you going to do?

Get another job. I was taking some time and I had a couple of health issues and I decided to take care of myself instead for a while. OK. When do you start the new one? I haven't got one yet. Oh. OK.

When do you plan to start it? Soon. OK. As in 10 years or 10 months? Less than 10 months, probably in the next 3 months or so. Okay. Alright, just trying to get a finger on that. Because it might matter, you might need this money to eat. Yes.

And I don't want to, it's a different answer. If you don't need the money to eat, you would take your old 401k and you would roll it to an IRA and I'm 64 I have mine invested in four types of mutual funds equally growth growth and income aggressive growth and international have 25 percent in each how much is in your 401k, I have some numbers I can give you there. But the 401k has 400 in it. I own my own house. Good. Okay, so 400, if you're 58 and you invested in good mutual funds and it made 10 percent, would be worth 800 if you add nothing to it at 65. At 72 it would be 1.6 million. Sounds decent. What's it invested in now? at 65 at 72 it would be 1.6 million.

Sounds decent. What's it invested in now? Nothing. Oh, no. And the 401k it has to be in something. What's it in? It's just in a, like a, like a no, no money. Like a money market type of account or something. Absolutely. Oh, very dangerous. Okay, how long has it been sitting there? Too long, Dave. Okay, because last year the S&P was up 24%. The year before it was up 26%. So if you missed out on two years,

you probably lost 200 grand. I've missed more than that, but I've just been doing dumb on that one. So my point is not to shame you for the past, my point is to motivate you for the future. Yes, I understand. So I paid off my house, my house is paid off, I have 400 in my 401k, I have another retirement account with 80k in it and I have a savings with 80k. Good. Okay, that's great. What were you making before? Averaging around 150.

Good. Okay. It was in 19. Are you married? No. Uh, averaging around 150. Good. Okay. He's in IT. Are you married? No. Okay. Um, have you been married?

No. Okay. All right. Um, what was your health problem? Uh, my health problem was, uh, I had gained a lot of weight in the last years of, uh, working there and I started getting some like kidney stone problems and things like that, so I took time off kidney stone problems and things like that. So I took time off to address that. I lost 35 pounds and the kidney stones

are no wonder problems. Good. Congratulations, man. Good. Are you still overweight after 35 pounds? No. Way to go, man. That's awesome.

Okay, good. So- Yeah, I listened to your show for a while. I did every baby step right except for the investing. Yeah except you just didn't put it in anything. It's sitting there doing nothing. Yeah you've done great. That's why I'm asking. It's just it feels like you've been coasting a minute here and I was just I was asking some questions because trying to figure out why you needed a rest because you took a rest and I'm good. I'm good with it. I just didn't didn't know what it was so that's fine. You don't have to explain it. But yeah, we don't want the money resting. It works 24

7. So put it back to work. Go to Ramsey Solutions. Get you a SmartVestor Pro that one of the people we recommend is sit down, talk to two or three of them and find one that you like and go sit down and learn about investing and that'll keep you in the game on the investing. The good news folks about your investments is your money never gets sick. It never gets burnt out. It never gets tired. It works 24-7. It's automatic. Put it to work. It doesn't get pregnant, it doesn't become disabled, it doesn't have any issues, it doesn't feel entitled, it just works 24-7. So put your freaking money to work folks. It's a magical thing. Mary is in Buffalo, New York. Hey Mary, how are you? I'm good, how are you? Better than I deserve, what's up?

So I was just kind of trying to get your guys' opinion on whether you think life insurance is a scam or unethical to sell. No, we endorse life insurance and have for 35 years. I think it's unethical to have a family and not have a health, I mean, life insurance. Okay. Are you talking about a whole like a whole policy? So I believe it's term life insurance but I recently opened my own business in January but I haven't gotten as much revenue as I'd like so I started to apply for some jobs and I was recently

offered an interview with a life insurance company it's all commission based but it just almost seemed too good to be true so that's kind of what had me wondering whether or not it's ethical or not it's perfectly ethical but they are lying to you about what you're gonna make okay you smelled a rat it was just the wrong color rat okay. The product is fine if it's term life insurance. That's not the problem. But life insurance sales is very difficult and it takes a while to get started and it's not a great part-time job. After you finish selling your relatives and the people you know you're pretty much out of business. Okay. And that's kind of the

model that industry has run for years. So no it's a perfectly ethical product as long as it's term life and not whole life or your cash value of any kind. That's a crummy product but this is just like the life insurance companies go through salespeople like underwear. I mean it's just all the time right? 80% of the people on the life insurance sales are not there a year later. That's the numbers. That's what I mean.

No. So I'm not saying it's horrible. You might be one of the 20%. You might go on to live a life of fame and fortune selling a wonderful product called Term Life Insurance. If you do, more power to you. But this idea that this is easy and you're going to be able to go buy a yacht and all of that, no, you're not. And not anytime soon anyway.

And so you probably would stay in your lane, whatever your career field is, and make more money, some kind of side hustle while you're trying to get your business going. Something associated with that or getting a part-time job in that field, whatever that is, you probably would do better. You just ask. But my point is, I think your instinct, the Holy Spirit speaking through you is accurate. It just had its sights aimed at the wrong thing. Yeah. If you're not cut out for 100% commission, I think everyone's cut out for it eventually, but I think you sometimes need to take some steps to get there. And going from your own

business not working out to this would be, that would be the, going from the griddle to the frying pan on this one. Yeah. Amen. Michael's in Philadelphia. Hey Michael, how are you? Good. Good. How's it going? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I have a question for you. Um, uh, I, Carol I am 62 I'll be 63 later this year. Um, I've been in my company for many years and I have accumulated about a million dollars in 401k and about a quarter dollars in 401k, you know,

about a quarter million in addition in a pension of my company. Um, I recently, well, a couple of years ago, I inherited about a half a million dollars from my parents who had passed away. Um, I have two daughters who are working that have between the two of them, about $220,000 in student debt. My question for you is, should I use some of that inheritance to pay off their loans? Dr. John B. Bowne Does the student loan debt represent a disagreement between the two of you, like they did it against your will, or did they misbehave in some way?

Dr. John B. Bowne No, no, no, not at all. They just they went to school and and they just at the time that's yeah. And what did they study? So one is a school teacher, the other one is a medical assistant. Okay, so the only question I would ask is are you enabling some kind of bad behavior? If you're not, I would pay it off. No, no, no, it's nothing. It's absolutely not a very good relationship. I know I mean bad behavior on are they mishandling money and this is going to make it easier for them to mishandle? Are you giving a drunk a drink? No, no, no. Nothing like that. They're both very responsible. I just like to... Yeah, I would do it. Absolutely, I'd pay it off.

It'd be an amazing gift. You need to check with your tax guy and gal and make sure you use the Unified Estate Tax Credit. You can't give away 150,000 bucks to an individual without having gift tax unless you use a piece of paper called the unified estate tax credit. Buying or selling a home is a big deal and between all the clickbait headlines and the confusing data it is tough to know what's actually going on in the housing market. Well we're here to make the latest trends easy to understand Medium home prices went up slightly last month up. I said To about four hundred thirty thousand dollars. That's the median nationwide more homes are on the market

Nearly a million the highest since 2019, but in many areas not enough to meet buyer demand the highest since 2019 but in many areas not enough to meet buyer demand. The average 15-year fixed rate rose to 5.9 last month but it's still under 6 obviously. If you're financially ready a small rate increase doesn't hold you back from the home you love that's going up in value while you're sitting on the sidelines waiting on something to happen. Don't do that. If you're out of debt you have your emergency fund and you're ready to buy this is the time to do it. To learn more about housing market trends, get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence go to ramsaysolutions.com slash market or click the link in the show notes. Alex is in

Jacksonville Florida. Hey Alex welcome to the Ramsey show. Hey Mr. Dave thank you for taking my call. Sure man what's up? So my question is, my mom and dad always taught me that if you met a girl and you want to spend your life with her and all that, you have to be the man of the house and pay for everything. So I met that girl a few years ago and I was doing just that, paying for everything. Once we started living together, I was doing the same. And long story short, we broke up now know other than the broken heart and all that I also like out thirty forty thousand dollars by doing all that um so the question I have is

where's the line that I drove between when we're dating of like where do I what do I pay for and where do I start having the conversation of like hey you know let's the dating didn't cost you grand. It was a shacking up. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I was paying for everything. I never asked her. I got that. But I mean, that's where the money happened. Yeah. So the line you cross is when you moved in together. Okay. You took every single bill. Yeah. And acted like you were married and you weren't. Yeah.

And you discovered how that works when she took off. Broken heart, broken heart, broken wallet. So I'm an old fuddy-duddy when it comes to this stuff. I believe in paying for dinner and I married a tough, tough woman, but I believe I like paying for dinner and not because it was some kind of flex, it just like you, I was just kind of the way I I was raised and also an old fuddy-duddy

and think you should get married before you move in together and here's where I'm not a fuddy-duddy and I just want to challenge you I dude if you start trying to ROI expenses on another person that you're building a relationship with or have a relationship with that's a that's a caustic way to live your life, dude. You know what I mean? Yeah, I didn't really do it while in relationship. It's just like, when she left me, everything she saved up over those two years

because she was working, she bought a house. Yeah, but here's the thing, here's the thing. Going forward, if you're using this lens that you're using talking to us is John's point. Not looking back, looking back, you were not ROI and in the moment or you wouldn't have done it. Of course. Okay. But looking forward, you don't want to go, well, is this worth the investment? That's what John's saying. Like the next cute girl,

right? Okay. So we're not going to, we don't measure cuteness and ROI. That makes sense. So yeah, that's the point. And then, so, you could do two things. Do you have siblings? I do. Sister? I do have a sister, yes. Okay. If you were raised the way you were raised, I suspect you were raised the way I was raised. You don't mess with my sister sister 100% I'll put you down You follow me?

Yes, sir. Yeah, so how do you want you treat her like you want somebody treat your sister? Or like if you're gonna have a daughter someday how you want someone treat your daughter. That's how you treat her You treat her like a lady and that does not include checking up that includes just behavior opening doors, paying for dinner, being kind, all those kinds of things, right? And none of that is expensive. That's more of an attitude than it is an actual expenditure.

Yeah, exactly. And in the same way I would rather, I've got a couple of buddies that I'm going to a concert with in a couple nights. It doesn't matter if they don't pay me back for the tickets, I'd rather go to the concert with those guys. And so I grabbed three tickets and of course they're both gonna say, hey how much the tickets? And I'm gonna tell them and but I'm not gonna check my Venmo because I want to go hang out with those guys. If I start looking at it, well that guy's not my friend anymore and we spent this, what just a miserable way to live your life dude enjoy your time with your friends

and if you're in a season of blessing then bless your friends and also when they want to pick up their part let them pick up their part it's just it's I think you learned a lesson in heartbreak and I think you're trying to use math to make it hurt less don't do that don't do that just take it as man I learned some lessons and I'm gonna move on and... It doesn't mean the lessons your parents tried to teach you were the wrong lessons. It's just you got your heart broken. Yeah, that doesn't invalidate what your mom and dad said about being a gentleman. Yeah. Katherine is in California. Hi Katherine, how are you? Hey, I'm great. Thank you for taking my call. Sure, what's up? Well, my question is that I am part of a family trust

that happened in December 15th of 2022 and the gentleman that was part of the family trust that was part of the family trust and his son was also part of the family trust and I was his girlfriend. The reason why he felt that I should be on the family trust was because he, you know, we were in love of course and we were planning on, you know, having a more permanent relationship and marriage. Down the line, he had cancer. He got cancer and eventually passed away, unfortunately, of 2023. I'm sorry. Of this third 2023. I'm sorry. This third 2023. So you're left with his son and you on the truss and you were never married. Yes. Yeah, that is correct. Yucky. So what's going on now? I've been since the 2023 December of 2023 to present I've paid been responsible for paying all the property taxes personally personally yes are you

living there I'm sure yes I do live here okay and so the Family Trust, what assets does it hold? Well, right now the assets, well he inherited money, which he was the... No, the trust. What is in the trust? Well, the trust was vehicles and the house. Okay, so you are a 50% owner in that trust? I will be as of August 3rd of this year. Right now I'm 40 percent. Okay and who's the trustee? Me. Sell everything and disperse the money. Okay. This is not fun. I love the house. I don't care. You don't love the situation and it's a dead gum hot mess. It is a hot mess.

Then you're never going to be friends with this kid because he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing, which is pay half the bills and he ain't going to do it, is he? No. Yeah. And we can't make people do that. Well, my next question would be then, what if he won't sell? He doesn't have a choice. If you're the trustee, you make the decision. Beneficiaries don't get a choice if you're the trustee, you make the decision. Beneficiaries don't get a vote, they just receive the benefits.

Trustees make the decision. Trustees have to act on the best interest of the trust, and the best interest of the trust is, the trust is underfunded and can't pay its bills. So one of the members of the trust is having to pay the bills instead, and the trust is going in debt to you, and this is not good for the trust.

Your responsibility as a trustee is to be, is to take care of the goods of the trust and you're not doing that by doing this. So you have to sell this stuff. Okay. You follow what I'm saying? It would be more beneficial to do it that way versus if, you know, because I don't make a lot Okay, so you can't afford to buy a mouth

$49,000 a year you can't afford to buy them out then No, but I do have another house that I'm gonna be putting up for sale Maybe that's the one you move into this one's going up for sale You do what you want to do kiddo, but this is not gonna get better Everything here is going to ash before it's over. It's just going to continue to... you got termites in this thing. It's not going to go away. There's nothing in what you described that's going to work long term. Ten years from now nobody's happy. That's what I'm saying. So go ahead and make it while somebody can still be happy and that's you. Sell it. Put your money in your pocket. There's a sad

situation and move on. Just my opinion. it's worth what you paid for it. Our scripture of the day, Isaiah 32, 8, generous people plan to do what is generous and they stand firm in their generosity. Thomas Sowell said, Sowell said, judging businesses or their owners by how much wealth they give away rather than how much wealth they create is putting the cart before the horse. Wealth is ultimately the only thing that can reduce poverty. Ooh, there we go.

Grant is in Houston, Texas. Say, Grant, how are you? Better than I deserve. Cool, what's up? How's it going, Dave? No, no, I just, this might be more about me than about my brother, but I have an older brother who's 59 and he's being, I guess, financially assisted and has been for a few years by our parents. And I guess over the last three years or so, our relationship has been strained a little bit. And I don't know if it's just, you know, equity in terms of, or, you know, being fair in terms of, or you know, being fair in terms of support or if it's, you know,

something that I don't have any say in. So like, so my brother is being, you know, bailed out over the last, I guess, 20 years or so and it's gotten a little bit worse in the last few years and part of me is like, it's none of my business, it's gotten a little bit worse in the last few years and part of me is like it's none of my business It's between my parents and my brother but When my brother takes money from my parents, it's not that the Turk, you know, the Thanksgiving dinner tastes different It doesn't taste different for him And I don't know why and maybe I just need to deal with it

But I'm concerned, you know, for my parents, your parents have the money to do this and still be okay. They do. Okay. It's just, uh, you know, it's pretty egregious now. I mean, he has two loans on his, his house and he's, he's got my parents to take out a home equity loan on their house. Why?

I thought you said they had the money. They do, but my dad did not want to sell appreciated stocks in a investment account, so he thought it was easier to take out some equity as opposed to realize a capital gain. Who are you mad at? You mad at your dad? You mad at your brother? I think it's I'm mad at my brother. Okay. And, but I know it's, it's, it's my parents are getting older. So I don't, he's my older brother. So I feel weird going to him to say,

cut it out because he's been doing brother, so I feel weird going to him to say, cut it out, because he's been doing it for so long. He feels maybe a little entitled to the money that he thinks he's going to get eventually, but it's really been my parents and you know, they're now 80 and- So I would go sit down with them, because you know talking to your older brother, he's always been a mooch, he's always going to be a mooch, and so talking to him is futile, it's a waste of time. Any guy that asks his 80-year-old father

to put his house on the block, because he's two helox under his own house, is just a person who's just a mooch, right? And so, but sitting down with your parents and saying, hey, I just wanna talk to you about the plan for the future, your financial plan, I'm worried about how y'all are spending money. Dad just put his house on the block. And parents don't always want to talk

to their kids about money. Or maybe ask, hey, I've got a real sensitive question. I'm just in this for myself. I've got my own family. Like, can we talk about power of attorney stuff? Can we talk about where your will is? I just want to know where things are as y'all get older. Just how I can love y'all best.

And you might figure out, dude, your dad's way ahead of you. He knows here's how he's going to do this. Or he may tell you to go shove it, but at least you'll have that conversation under your belt because right now I think the mystery of it all is what's making you nuts. Yeah. I mean, we have a power of attorney now set up and we've gone and talked to the financial advisors. Who have a power of attorney now set up and we've gone and talked to the financial advisors who's the power of attorney They have just recently made me and my brother power of attorney, that's useless. Yeah

No, thank you. No. Thanks. I don't want to sign up for this. I probably tell him if he's on it. I'm not I'm not No way This is setting up World War three I know they're wanting you to tell her no because they've never had the backbone to exactly new I'm not signing up for this your dad's a wimp okay I should get out of that not yeah go talk to your dad say listen I'm oh I'm not okay with y'all this guy mooching off of y'all it happens to be my brother and I don't want to be power of attorney with him you either make me power of attorney or

Make him but not both of us. I'm not doing it. Okay, because that was I was trying to help them out You're not helping them. You're just another enabler in this story Somebody else that didn't want to call it say the Emperor has no clothes. The Emperor has no clothes. Your brother is a mooch and your dad is weak. Yeah. That's mean isn't it? I just need to kind of relax. No I'm just telling you I'm saying these things out loud because you've already said them in your head. No I know and it just makes me you know. No it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to say it out loud. So when you get uncomfortable do the next right thing which is all I can controls me I want to make sure I've had this conversation with my dad that I want to be able to execute what you want done

I'm not okay with this Tom foolery that's going on where you're supporting a guy who won't bother to work and be responsible and I'm not gonna be a Power of attorney with him if you want him to do it fine if you want me to do it fine But I'm not gonna do it Co because that's me to do it fine but I'm not going to do it Co because that's going to cause a fight dad and I don't want to fight appreciate that yeah that and that'll start the conversation well he say if you if you have that conversation with your old man they I don't know. I think they just, they've always kind of helped them out.

And they talk about the power of attorney, power of attorney thing. Oh, I think that'd be fine. I mean, it was my impetus to try to help them out. And the financial advisor said, well, we can't really talk to you about their finances without you being a power of attorney on their account Yeah, well that but that doesn't mean your brother has to be No, exactly, but I think they did it out of fairness of some way I missed where these people are fair. Yeah, it's not fairness. It's fair to you. They're scared of a hard conversation. Yeah

Yeah, they're scared of a hard conversation. There's not they're not being fair at all. They're being hands off. We'll let these two guys, one who has been taking care of his business his whole life, the other that we've had to support for whatever guilt laden reasons, we'll let them duke it out after we pass away. That way we don't have to have a hard conversation. Or we don't have to deal with the reality that one of our sons did not become who we hoped he would become. That's the reality. It's been telling me and I just can't...hard to realize. Yeah it is. It's heartbreaking, brother. It's okay to still love somebody who's

deficit. There's nothing wrong with that. That's just mercy. But it's not okay to condone their misbehavior. That's enabling. And it's not okay to enable it and then attach yourself to it. Oh, God, yes. So if I'm spending some time during the summer in close proximity, do you have any advice on how to... I mean, I'm not going to reconcile, but... Close proximity with your old man or with your brother? Both. Well, I'd probably... Man, you're so far in now and y'all are old enough now, I'd probably go out with both of them.

Take your dad and your brother out for breakfast one day and say, all right, boys, here's the deal. And look at your brother and say, I know that dad's propping you up and keeping you going. I don't like it, but I'm not involved in this. And hey, dad, if you just leave everything to both of us, it's gonna be tough, man. And if your brother's an immature brat and throws a fit, then you know that more than I do. So if that's the case, then just go out with your dad.

But if he can hear it and your brother will hang his head and say, oh no, I don't want it, I've got a plan. If he's that kind of guy, then he can hear the conversation too. But if he can't, then sitting down with your dad and saying, dad. I'm not gonna do the power of attorney with him. I'm not.

I live my life differently. I've never asked you for money. You taught me good lessons and I've put them into practice. I've got my own family. I'm doing my own thing. I wanna take care of you in old age, but I can't manage you and. You're misbehavior with him.

That's right. And my older brother who still can't be on his own two feet. As far as being in their presence, I would just look at them and say, it's like having someone in the family that's got some kind of other problem. Recovering alcoholic, or they're not a recovering alcoholic or whatever,

and you're gonna spend time with them. You just go, well, they're just deficit. Your brother's deficit in character. Yeah. You just got a deficit, he's got a problem, and you just look at him with pity. And you just go, well that's him, and I just happen to be kin to him, and it's sad.

And every time in his life when the weight got heavy in the weight room, your parents came and took the weight off the bar, so it would be easier for him to lift, and now he's 16, he didn't have the muscles. So it just is what it is, man. Sad, I'm sorry. Yeah, it breaks my heart, man.

I'm sorry. That puts us out of the Ramsey Show and the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.