The Ramsey Show - App - The Truth About College Degree ROI (Hour 3)

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

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I'm going to go ahead and get started. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you live your best life by being healthy relationally, successful professionally, and peaceful financially. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, my co-host this hour. He is George Campbell. We are here for you. 888-825-5225. 888-825-5225. If you are winning at work,

but your personal life is falling apart because of money issues or relationship issues, that's going to eventually affect you at work. You flip that. Things are going great at home. Maybe money's great, but work is awful. You're dragging that home, too. We want to help you win in those three key areas.

Call it a flat tire. Yeah, yeah. And they all work together. So if we can help you do that, we want to do that, Georgia. We've had some fun and lively discussion today. Good, good stuff. Good way to put it. Yeah.

All right. Let's get it started. We're going to go to Calgary in Alberta, Canada, and Niven is joining us there. Niven, you are on The Ramsey Show. How can we help? Hi there, Ken and George. Glad to be talking with you both. You bet.

What's up? I'm calling because my wife and I are planning on starting a small business. And just to give you background, I am a photographer here. And I just wanted to figure out how best to go about onboarding some people at the ground stage here for this business and provide value for them with not a whole lot of capital to start off with. Not in a position to give off salary and everything like that. But we know that we're going to need help in starting the business, especially finding talent and things like that. And so I was wondering how I can provide value to somebody that starts off at the very bottom with

us and go forward with the business. Okay. Now, I appreciate the question and the heart behind the question, but I just got to know, what do you mean by value? Are you not able to pay a salary? Well, it wouldn't be like a full-time thing to start off with, right? We need to really build up our client base and things like that. So I have the people already, and they're willing to work on it, and they're part-time, and that's all I'm really looking for. Do you, you know, in their part-time and that's all I'm really looking for.

Do you have the money to pay them part-time? Not exactly. Not until, like, I want to keep it as low cost as possible and provide them with, you know, as we get more clients on board and give them, you know, maybe it's a commission or something like that. Okay. So, Nevin, listen, you got to treat this like a self-proprietorship, like you are the business, you're the photographer, yes or no? So I am, but that's the thing. I'm actually, you know, there's only so many events I can shoot. I've learned the whole thing of marketing, getting clients, things like that.

But when my calendar gets booked up, I'm still getting requests. Is your calendar booked up now? It's getting there. No, no, no. It's not. If it's getting there, it's not booked up. So back to what I'm saying. I think you're getting way ahead of yourself, and I love this. It's coming from a good place. But your calendar needs to be full. Okay. And is your wife helping you at all in the business, or is it just some support work?

The photography business is you, the photographer. I understand setting up lights and some stuff like that. I mean, I know enough. I've got some friends that started it. You don't need a whole bunch of help until your calendar gets completely booked and you've got a lot of requests coming in and you're going, I physically can't say yes to this. I need another photographer underneath of me.

So you don't need to worry about this problem yet. And so my question is, what is your wife doing in the business now besides you? Who else is doing something? Okay, sorry. I think I should give an idea of what the business actually is because it's not just me doing photography. It's not just that. I was going to oversee a business of multiple photographers and advertising them and putting their portfolios out. Yeah, but you don't have, but you don't, I know that's what you want to do. My point is, is you don't even have the business to make yourself have a full schedule yet, correct? Yes, but I wouldn't be a photographer in this business. You would just be running it, handling different you know gigs and different photographers all right okay i'm sort of confused but but i understand here's the deal you can't pay somebody until you've got the business to pay them so asking people hey are you willing to come

on for part-time hourly work and if they say yes then that's what you can do so then you work with them you go this is what the market it kind of is bearing in this area in Calgary. And so we're going to offer you this part time. And then as your business grows and you can move them to full time or give them a bump on the hourly pay, then you do that. So it's not how do we do it now before we have the business. It's how do we scale up. But right now you don't have enough business. So if you're going to launch this new business, that's fine, but you can't start paying and commit to paying something when you're not getting income. So you just have to wait and be patient. As you get more

business in and you can afford to pay for somebody, then you do it. It's pretty straightforward. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, but don't get into this. George, we see this a lot with entrepreneurs. They get very excited, and it's awesome to be excited. Yeah. But start small, grow slow. Yeah, I worked for a videographer back in college, and he would hire me for just part-time work, and I'd help him second shoot her at a wedding, something like that, running a video camera.

And I loved it because I was getting paid, you know, $20, $25 an hour as a college student, and I thought, I'm rich. And he was happy because he was charging, you know, $3,000, $4,000 to shoot this wedding. And so you've got to build that into your profits. But he didn't come to you and say, hey, I'm going to try. Do this for free for exposure. Yeah, I'm going to try to find a way to add value to you. Listen, people aren't going to come work for you because you're going to

add value to them. No, you've got to be able to pay your people and photographers. You know, there are a dime a dozen here in Nashville. You can find them on every corner. But if you can find someone who's hungry for some work and you're the one doing all the work of getting the gigs, handling the scheduling, working with the clients, that's stuff that creatives

generally don't want to deal with. So I think there is a lot of value in what he's talking about to just be able to do my craft. And I think there are photographers who would do that, but you've got to start to hire some part-time people as the books get filled up and you can't do it. And here's what I want to talk to. I want to speak to entrepreneurs because we have a lot of people who want to start a business. And so if we stay here in the Vins kind of setup, he still needs to finish his, he needs to fully book himself. Here's why. I know he wants to run a business of photographers, but right now the greatest credibility for him would be he's full time. He's maxed out.

And then he earns the client because they know his reputation. And he says, I've got another photographer that, you know, that's how he begins to build the business where he's leading other photographers. That makes sense. He has to win on his own and create demand that he will then scale up. Yeah. And, uh, Nevin, I'll do you a favor. I'll send you a copy of Dave's bestselling book, Entree Leadership. So hang on, Kelly, we'll pick up and we'll get your information and send that over to you. But that's going to walk you through how Dave built a business from a card table in his living room to now hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue and serving a lot of people. So I want to see you scale and grow, but you've got to do it slow,

and it's going to take time, probably longer than you want. But that is the smart way to do it. And do it at the speed of cash, always. Yes, yes. Don't get yourself promising stuff that you can't deliver on. It's okay. Be patient. This thing's going to grow, and we're really excited for you. Thank you for the call. It's a really good call. Good question. Be patient,

grow slow. All right. We got to do a quick break, but we're not going anywhere. Don't you go anywhere either. This is more important than ever. While some circumstances can't be controlled, there are items within your budget you can take charge of, such as your healthcare costs. For nearly 40 years, Christian Healthcare Ministries, or CHM, has provided a budget-friendly means

of sharing for medical bills when our members need it. Learn more by visiting chministries.org slash budget. That's chministries.org slash budget. Christian Healthcare Ministries is a Ramsey-trusted provider. All right, folks, welcome back to The Ramsey Show. It's where America's hanging out to win financially, to win relationally, to win professionally. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague and co-host this hour, George Kimmel.

We're thrilled to be with you. Tax season is upon us, I know. Try not to throw up in your mouth, I get it. Nobody likes doing their taxes, especially when you realize that big software companies are up to a scheme. Every year, these companies lure you in by saying you can file your taxes for free. And then when you're knee-deep in the filing process, they sucker punch you with upcharges, loan offers, and credit card pitches. There's a better way to do it. It's called Ramsey Smart Tax.

It's our online tax filing software. With Ramsey Smart Tax, you get all the deductions, all the forms, and every tax break you deserve. But the best part is the price. We're already lower than the leading competitors, and you won't find hidden fees. Plus, this year we have a promo code that will truly make it free to file your federal taxes. Did you hear that, George? I said it's free. If it's free, it's for me.

Very nice, George? I said it's free. If it's free, it's for me. Very nice, George. I love it. Go to ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax to get your promo code and file without the surprises. Go to ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax. All right, let's go to Columbus, Ohio. Amber joins us there. Amber, how can we help? Yes, hi. I just became a single mom and started working full-time. I work 40-plus hours and a little over $12,000 in debt and trying to get that paid off within about two years' time because my kids are going to start going to school and just not wanting to have to worry about kind of that extra burden of them going to school extra daycare different things like that and to see kind of where i can cut financially or um what i can do to kind of help relieve some of that stress yeah

so i want george to walk you through uh the financial piece and then i want to come in and talk about the income part of this and see if we can help juice this process, George. Yeah, when I hear $12,000 in two years, I hear I'm not making a lot of money for the amount of time I'm putting in here. So what's your income? My income right now is about $40,000 to $45,000 a year. Okay. And what's left at the end of the month?

Nothing? Not really doing less at the end of the month? Nothing? Not really anything left at the end of the month. Okay. Is that because of the kids? Have you reined in doing a budget and all those kinds of things, or are you kind of new to all this? I'm new to all of it because with separating from my husband, I was a stay-at-home mom,

so he had obviously a lot better job than I did. So we never really had to worry about that. So it's all new all at once. He had obviously a lot better job than I did. So we never really had to worry about that. So it's all new all at once. And then also just taking on all the financial everything, the car payment, the rent, just everything all at once. Are you getting any alimony or child support? I just started child support last month. Okay.

Is that included in the 45? Or is that separate? No, that is not. That's separate. Okay. Well, I definitely want you to get on a written plan every month. We've got to start paying attention to every single dollar coming in, giving it a job, giving it a name so it can go to work for you to pay down this debt. Because looking at it on paper, I go, $12,000, we can clean that up real fast.

I mean, you can do that with a side job. What is the $12,000 in debt? 95% of it is car loans. Okay. And then also a loan for the lawyer. How much is in the actual car loan of the $12,000? Is it $11,500? It's $9,000.

Oh, it's $9,000. What's the car worth, do you know? It's not worth more than like $5,000. Okay. What kind of car is it? It is a 2012 Dodge Caravan. Okay. How many miles on it? 130,000.

Well, I mean, in this car market, I would not be shocked if it was worth way more than $5,000, just the demand of those types of vehicles. So this might be a way to clean this up fast because I don't want you sitting in this for two years, and if there's not a great way to get your income up, then we've got to figure out another solution here. So what are you doing for work? I work at a warehouse with Polaris. Okay. And is there overtime there? Because you said you're working more than 40 hours a week. Yes, there's plenty of overtime. That's not, that's why, but I don't get to choose overtime.

I have to stay there and do the overtime. Okay. And then what's the childcare situation when you're at work all day? My mom watches them right now, but I do pay her, obviously not. Not market rate? Not market rate, but still that's another financial burden on top of everything else. Yeah. Well, looking at the numbers, I mean, 45 plus the child support, I feel like this shouldn't be taking two years. And so what I would want to do is really look at the numbers on this, look at the budget, see where we can trim,

see where the money's going to find out how much margin we can create at the end of each month to be able to throw out this debt. Because right now, based on the numbers you told me, you're looking at $500 max of margin per month that you could create. Okay. And so I want to see that number go up to, can we create $1,000 of margin a month with overtime and I'm slashing the expenses and we're not eating out, we're not spending online. How can we create $1,500 of margin in a month with overtime and I'm slashing the expenses and we're not eating out and we're not spending online? How can we create $1,500 a month? And that's where I start to get excited and you start to look at the numbers and feel the progress and you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

How much is the car payment? We know what it's worth. We know what it's worth. We know what the loan is. How much are you paying in the car payment? $350 a month. Okay. So can you imagine how life would feel if you

didn't have that? It was so amazing because right before I separated with my husband, we were almost debt-free, but we needed a second vehicle. So we got another car loan. Oh, okay. Good. So you were on this journey before the divorce? Yes. We only had his student loan before we separated, and that was it. Do you feel like he's not going to be a deadbeat? He's going to pay his payments? He's financially secure, and despite the pain of this divorce and whatever's going on there, do you feel like he's going to be consistent with the child support payments? I sure hope so, because that would help out a lot, but I'm not holding my breath, because I don't want it to be a source of income, and then it go away, and now I'm out that

source of income. So I want to see you, what steps can we take, because in the near future, and maybe for the long-term future, you're going to be a full-time working mom, and you can do this. And George is right. So one of the things I want to help you do is make more income. What do we need to do to get you a $55,000, $60,000, $65,000, $70,000, $75,000 a year job? What would you do? I know you're going through a lot right now, but what would you do?

Is there something you've wondered about or something you would love to do if you didn't have to spend time getting qualified and spend money as well? Does anything pop at the top of your mind? In my job right now, I did apply for a couple of positions that would make that possible to do a huge pay raise. It's just a matter of the job interviews and seeing if i got it because it's just a process of what what i have to do well i applaud you for going after but what would you love to do yet it got an idea i honestly have no idea i've done the um nursing before because that's what i thought but i didn't love it and so i stepped out of that so you're interesting

well i want to challenge you on something I love you don't have to go back to nursing but I got to tell you if if in the world we're in right now if you were to jump back into that could jump into that jump back into that for a small period of time to get out of that faster get that emergency fund fully funded uh boy I would consider that but here's the deal George um I don't know what you're going to give her. You may give her something, you may not. But I'm going to give her, I want two things I'm going to give her. Amber, I want you to take the Get Clear Career Assessment.

Okay? It's a 20 to 25-minute online assessment. Just be honest with yourself, and it's going to fill out for you a detailed report on what you're really talented at, what work you would really enjoy, and what results you want to produce. And that's going to allow you to identify a dream job with your purpose statement. It's going to give you some ideas, and I'm going to give you, to go along with that, the book, From Paycheck to Purpose, my best-selling book. Think of the assessment as a compass that will help you identify a mountain that you

really want to scale professionally, and then think of the book as the guide up the mountain. I'm going to give you those two things. Kelly will pick up and give those to you. But George is giving you some great advice. You can knock this $12,000 of debt out pretty quickly by just getting control of that budget. If we can juice your income, and you're trying right now, use the two tools I'm giving you. Let's identify what you really want to do and why you want to do it. And I think that $75,000 income is extremely attainable, George, and even beyond that. And I'm going to actually gift you a Ramsey Plus as well. Get plugged into the EveryDollarPlus budgeting tool.

Watch Financial Peace University. Get excited. Get plugged into the budget. Let it work for you. Let it give you permission to spend, and you're going to feel the freedom soon enough, Amber. Can't wait. Amber, we're sorry you're going through this heartbreak, but those babies need you, and you can do it. We believe in you. This is The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by my colleague, George Campbell.

We are here for you, taking your money questions, your relationship questions, your work questions. All of those are about you being your best self and living your best life, and that's why we're here for you. 888-825-5225 is the number. 888-825-5225. Okay, one of the big cultural norms, cultural myths, is that a college degree is the best way to success. Now, that may have been true based on where culture was 30 years ago, 40 years ago. It's not true anymore as education continues to evolve, as technology evolves. And one of the things I wanted to point out, George, is a recent Yahoo News story that talks about a new report that shows which colleges offer the best ROI.

So we got a lot of money, questions and calls. Obviously, people don't want to win with their money on the show. And so ROI standing for return on investment. So if you think about how much money you spend over four years. And here's the deal. The data shows us that a lot of kids are taking five to six years. So this is a let's call it a four to six year spend on college. All right. And so just touching on a few things from the article. The report has a calculator where you could go in and you could search 3,300 colleges in the United States. And from this report, you see a lot of technical institutions, science and engineering type institutions tend to have a greater ROI, right?

Because of the explosive growth in those areas. And, you know, even the entry level in those areas is quite nice. And here's how they came up with it. How they come up with, because I think this is important for consumers, is they're thinking, what's the right school for my kid? What's the right school for me? More on that in a second. But this report basically took the college earnings premium which

is the pay bump that students would get after graduation or as a result of graduation and they divide that number by the cost of tuition and then it's going to take into account a range of other factors like student debt to how long it takes to complete it. So what are you racking up in debt? How long is it taking to get to the degree? As well as what are the labor market challenges that graduates will face? To give you an example of what I'm talking about here, we know that over 50%, I think it was about 52% of college graduates in 2021

took six months to find a job in the field they went to be trained for. So this takes into account that as well. And so we're not going to dive into this very deeply, but public institutions via this report, this ROI calculator, George, tended to do much better. The private nonprofit institutions were next, and then the private for-profit institutions, not so good. Uh-oh. So now let me just call this out because this is a trap. The private for-profit institutions that did not have a good ROI,

in fact, according to this report, just 69% offered a positive return. And I don't want to name names and hack anybody off. But they're out there. They're for profit, and they're big box. It's like, hey, come here. We'll get you trained for continuing education, blah, blah, blah. So be careful. I'm looking at some interesting numbers here on the calculator.

What do you got? I typed some schools in just to see, just to see. My alma mater has a $200,000 positive ROI. Oh, very nice. Texas Tech, Dr. John Deloney's alma mater, has a million-dollar ROI. Typed in Harvard University, just to see, $3 million ROI. And so that's what they're saying. It's very interesting.

But to look at different schools, and this varies person to person. You know, if you get a full ride, well, that changes the game versus going $300,000. And let's also understand, we are not endorsing this calculator. I want to be very clear. I'm saying it's a very interesting tool, but I think you've got to take into effect the student loan nonsense and what you're going to saddle yourself with. And I'm just going to say this to everybody listening and watching. When was the last time you went to the doctor's office or the dentist's office or sitting down with your CPA and before you

decided to pay them for their services, did you ask them to show you their diploma? Nobody cares. I scan the wall looking at the frames. I know you do, George, but you're neurotic. Nobody else does that. No, we're kidding. He doesn't do that. So this is the point. Let me just also give you a two-part question that I'm trying to help parents grasp. Is college the only way for your kid to get where they want to go? Secondary question, is it the best way? If the answer is no to either one of those, please be okay going to the block party or the golf course or the soccer game

and going, hey, my kid's going into trade school. Stop being ashamed of it for crying out loud. It wears me out, the shame that we've put on community colleges, on trade schools, on state schools even, and it's got to stop because it's putting our kids in chains for 20 years so that the parents can feel good, so they can brag to their friends about where their kid went to school. Yeah, it's become about status, folks.

Don't go for the football team. Don't go for the landscaping. Don't go for the water slide. If you've got to get the degree, get it. If it's the best way to get where you want to go, do it. If it's not, get over yourself. And this is a great pitch for everyone to go watch Borrowed Future. It's 88 minutes long. You've got to see this. Sit down with your kids, parents. If

you don't know how to have this conversation, this documentary can be a great place to start. This is a world-class documentary we put out late last year. It's like five bucks to go watch this thing. You can get it on Amazon Prime, on Apple TV, at our website, borrowedfuture.com. And listen to the podcast. That's a free resource, Borrowed Future. We did eight episodes on that, on Apple TV, at our website, borrowedfuture.com. And listen to the podcast. That's a free resource, Borrowed Future. We did eight episodes on that, on the student loan crisis. And it was eye-opening. But it just made me go, I want to shake every student and go, there's another way. Well, you realize that higher education has become about their fortunes, not your futures.

Amen. So there you go. You should tweet that. That's good. Yeah, I'm working on that one. You need to spread that one, folks. All right, let's go to Michael, who joins us in San Antonio, Texas. Michael, how can we help?

So I'm in a dilemma right now. So I finished Baby Step 2 last May. Great. Last July, my house burned down. Oh, my gosh. Everything in it. Oh, no. So sorry.

So it's been about eight months or so since then. However, I'm still stuck with the option. I can either rebuild a house, I could buy a house, I could rent a house, go temporary housing for a while. The reason why it's an issue now is the insurance company gave me six months in October for temporary housing for me to rebuild. However, the individuals that I've had assisting me with architectural plans and whatnot, we have not been able to get anything confirmed yet. So therefore, I haven't even started building the house. It's going to be a six to eightmonth process to build once I start groundwork.

And then you're on your own to pay for housing beyond that six months? Yes, sir. So what would happen if you moved and you didn't rebuild? What does that look like on the insurance side? So the insurance is fine with that, but there is—so they've already cut me the check for depreciated value for the home. However, if I do not contract a rebuild, I would lose the option to be able to get the $70,000 roundabout figure for total replacement costs. Oh, so you're losing out on $70,000, or do you pony up and pay for your own housing and hope this thing gets built sooner rather than later? Right. And my mortgage is right around $67,000.

So my mortgage company is holding that amount of money out of the money that was allotted to me for the depreciated cost. So right now I have the chance of getting $140,000 around about if I rebuild and then still continue on with my $67,000 mortgage or walk away, go buy or rent something, pay off my house, hope that I can sell the land or hold on to it and rebuild later. Well, I'm going to get some clarity or switch builders. I'm doing something here because this guy's not moving the needle for you. So I'm going to get some clear plans on what this timeline looks like. And if you can do this in six months,

eight months, I might just pony up and find my own housing situation and rebuild. Okay. That's my take. You, Ken? I think you've analyzed this. Got to move quickly though. I want some urgency. Yeah.

This is an urgent situation. Let's do our research. Let's get all of our options. Let's make a decision. Yeah, so sorry, though. I honestly am sitting here trying to process what he's been through to lose everything in a fire. Michael, thank you for the call. We admire you.

You've got great strength. And here's the deal. Take George's advice. Move forward. Make good, solid decisions. And here's the deal. Take George's advice. Move forward. Make good, solid decisions. The best is yet to be. So sorry for you.

This is The Ramsey Show. Thrilled to have you with us. Ken Coleman, George Camel joining me here as my co-host this hour. Our scripture of the day, Isaiah 9, verse 2. Those who walk in darkness have seen a great light. On those living in spaces of deepest darkness, a light has dawned. Our quote today from Maya Angelou, the great poet, if one has courage, nothing can dim the light that shines from within. All right, let's get back to the phones. 888-825-5225,

Madison, Wisconsin. Brandon is there. Brandon, how can we help? Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call. I have to refinance my house after going through a divorce, and I was wondering, I currently owe like $131,000 on it. I think it's probably worth around $220,000 depending on what the appraisal comes back at. I was wondering what the thought is on taking some cash out. I have to take some cash out to pay off my ex-wife on the equity, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on taking a little bit more out to pay off some of my higher credit card debt to free up some of that monthly payment. Well, Brandon, I'm so sorry that you're going through this divorce. That's a real painful thing, and there's a lot spinning in your mind on top of

the financial stuff, I'm sure. How fresh is this? A month. Wow. I'm so sorry. Well, I'll talk through the financials with you. You're talking about doing a cash out refinance? Correct. And you're saying, I've got to pay her off. So part of it is I have to refinance, get her off the mortgage and give her some of the equity as cash for her part of it, right? Correct. And then you're saying, should I take out even more and just knock out the credit card debt? Correct. Well, the answer is a no from me. We don't recommend cash out refis. Obviously, your situation with the divorce, this is a different situation. But as far as the credit cards, I want you to pay those off separately through the debt snowball and not roll that into a big mortgage. Because that cash out refi, it's turning your

home equity into debt. It's going to keep you in debt for longer. And a bigger loan is going to mean bigger risk. And so I don't like that option for you. How much credit card debt do you have? Well, there's some credit card, there's some personal loan, but a total of roughly $60,000. Okay. What's your income? $70,000. All right. And you said some of that is a personal loan? Yeah, there's a personal loan for $20,000. And you have 40 in credit cards? Roughly, yes. Wow. What was spent on the credit cards? What kind of things were we talking? You name it. I made a lot of decisions with my heart instead of my head while I was married.

Well, I want to change the behavior more than the math on this, and part of that is saying, hey, I'm going to cut up these cards. Have you cut them up yet? I haven't used them for probably a year since you have. Okay, good. But this debt's just been hanging around and you've been obviously going through some things. Yeah, I've been chipping away at it, but there's just so many moving parts that it's a slow process until everything is finalized. Yeah. Well, my goal for you, do you have any money? Do you have any savings? I have some, like a very small amount saved up just until I go through the refinance process

to pay for any closing costs and anything that's associated with lawyer fees and stuff that are finishing up. But after that's all done is when I plan on really kind of hitting the baby steps. Okay. So once you have that, set the $1,000 aside, set all the debts smallest to largest, start attacking that little one with a vengeance, and maybe that means there are side jobs involved. Can you work overtime at your job? What are you doing for work? I'm a paramedic.

Paramedic. Okay, well, that sounds like there could be a lot of work to be done in that arena. Yeah, there's some overtime available. I've been picking up what I can as long as it doesn't interfere with my time with the kids and whatnot. Sure. Well, most people that follow these baby steps, they do baby step two. They pay off all their consumer debt in 18 to 24 months. And so if you're not on track to do that with your salary and the debt numbers,

we've got to change some things. We've got to get rid of some stuff, cut some expenses, sell stuff, get the side jobs, because more than that, it's just too much of a slog, Ken, to go through this for two, three, four years. Yeah, it really is, because there's the urgency. We've heard Dave talk about this for very many years, this idea

of that gazelle intensity. There's a cheetah chasing you, you've got to run. That's why, to stretch it out over a long period of time is very difficult for anybody. And so the intensity, while it's painful, it is more productive. Yeah. Thanks for the call, Brandon. Absolutely.

Let's go to Margaret who joins us in Plantation, Florida. Margaret, how can we help? Hi. Margaret, what happened there? I got spooked. I'm so sorry. I was just finishing up grocery shopping. I am so sorry about that.

Hey, you're a working woman. I understand. That's all right. Hope you got some bargains. How can we help? Yes. Like I was telling your representative, I am so happy to know that after I followed Dave Ramsey's suggestion of the baby step, we have gotten everything done.

The only thing we're at right now is to invest. So you've got a fully funded emergency fund and you're completely out of consumer debt? Yes. Awesome. Way to go, Margaret. Yeah, way to go. That's a big deal. Yes, yes, and I Yeah, way to go. That's a big deal. Yes, yes. And I'm so grateful to Dave. Everything he said, it worked.

My husband, he's been with the company for 17 years now. He's a truck driver. He makes decent money, and he's having a company match, but it goes up to 8%. And we're fully funded with that. But now I don't know where to go with the rest of it to make it up to the 15%. Okay. Are you working as well outside the home? Yes. I took on another job so that I could help get rid of the debt. Awesome. And you're still going to continue that? Yes. So what's your household income? With my husband and myself, $82,000 because we just did our taxes.

Awesome. Okay. Very cool. So if you take 82 and you say, hey, we're going to invest 15%, that's going to be $12,300. So if we start with the match, you're saying we're going to do 8% of my husband's salary in that 401k because they match it. Beyond that, do you know if he has a Roth 401k option or is it traditional? It's traditional because, again, with Mr. Ramsey's suggestion, we did call and find out because we didn't know there was a difference, and they said it was traditional. So now we're looking into the Roth part of it, like you mentioned, you know,

rock, paper, scissors. Yeah, that's what we say is match beats Roth beats traditional. So we want to get all the match we can. Then we move to all the Roth options we can, which that could mean filling up a Roth IRA for you guys, which the max is about six grand. So that might get you close already, especially if you're both doing that. And then if we've exhausted the Roth options, then we move to traditional options. So a traditional 401k, a traditional IRA. So would that get you to the 15%? I'm not sure that's how come I'm calling the pros, because we were trying to figure it out if that was the additional Roth would get us to the 15%. So I'm not sure. Well, I'm going to just do this. Do you have a 401k at your job? No, unfortunately.

So you have no retirement options? No. But you can open a Roth IRA, and you could fully fund that with your after-tax dollars. Yes. Actually, we did get in touch with Fidelity because we didn't know of any other company. Okay, that's fine. And they said that is correct. Everything they said was on point. But they said it's up to $6,000 we could put into there. But we said, okay, that sounds good.

But I don't know if that would make it to the 15%. Oh, it definitely would. Oh, for sure. Because 12,000 total is what you guys need to be putting in, 12.3. And so if you get the 8% match and then go fully fund a Roth IRA for him, whatever's left over out of that 15%, if there is any, that's when we go, all right, we're going to start filling up the Roth IRA for you up to 15% because we want to leave margin for baby step five and six, filling up that college fund, paying off the house early. Then when you're at seven, you can go wild, invest 25%,

30%, give crazy generously, do all those kinds of things. Exactly, exactly. So I'm so sorry to keep asking you the same thing over and over. No, it's all good. So being that my husband is fully matched at 8% with the company he has with a traditional 401k. Yes. And now if we do the Roth IRA outside of that, then that would take us to, yes, the 15%. That would definitely take you to 15%, especially between the two of you. It would be even more than that. So that's the way to do it, Margaret. Appreciate the call. You guys are doing great.

Yeah, way to go, Margaret. That's a big deal. You guys are on your way to being Baby Steps millionaires. Thank you so much for the call. George Campbell, thanks for hanging out. Fun times, Ken. Always good to be with you, my friend. Big thanks to our team in the control room there behind the glass.

Thank you all so very much. And I want to thank you, America. This is your show. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, guys. This is James, senior producer for The Ramsey Show. Did you know over 18 million people listen to The Ramsey Show every week? And a lot of those people listen on one of our 600 plus radio stations across the country. To find a station near you, head to theramseyshow.com.

Thank you.