The Ramsey Show - App - There Are No Shortcuts on the Path to Wealth (Hour 3)

Episode Date: March 19, 2019

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions Broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. You jump in, we'll talk about your life, your money. It's a free call at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Rachel starts off this hour in Alexandria, Virginia. Hi, Rachel. How are you? Hi, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it. My pleasure Rachel. How are you? Hi, Dave.

Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it. My pleasure. How can I help? My question is on 529s. I have two Virginia 529 accounts for my 7-year-old son. They total about $90,000. One is a prepaid that has a balance of $50,000, and the other is an investment account with a balance of about $40,000.

And after listening to you, I've come to learn that both of these accounts are not the preferred option. So I just wanted to get some advice on what I can do with these two accounts and on a go-forward basis. Well, as long as you stay within the 529 umbrella, you won't have any tax problems. And so you can move it all into what we would call a more traditional 529. Technically, prepaid, all of that is 529s. And so you just pick out some good mutual funds with your SmartVestor Pro to fund a 529, and you move the money. It's not technically a roll, but you move the money from the prepaid and from the other into good mutual funds that are basic investment accounts that you're going to be able to get better returns on.

And, of course, as you know, I wouldn't add anything else to this, by the way. I think you've got enough in there for a child that age. And just let it grow from this point forward. So just click SmartVestor Pro or click SmartVestor at DaveRamsey.com. Select a SmartVestor Pro that you'd like to work with. A list of them will drop down when you get on the website, and you can choose which one you want to sit down with, or you can sit down to a three of them and decide which one you want to use,

and then sit down. They'll walk you through what technically has to happen, what the tactical moves are, the checks that have to be written, the paperwork that has to be signed, and that kind of stuff to make it happen. But that's all very doable. And yeah, I would do that, because prepaid college is about a 7% rate of return, and you can do better than that in good mutual funds. And that's why I don't do prepaid college.

Juan is in Tampa. Hi, Juan. Welcome to the Dave is in Tampa. Hi, Juan. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. How are you today? Better than I deserve. What's up? So my wife and I have been married for eight years.

We have five beautiful children. Within five years, we've made a lot of bad financial decisions, and we find ourselves to the tune of about $97,000 in debt, so just about $100,000 in debt, not including the house. And I want to just follow the plan as it's stated on the app, Path of Least Resistance guy right here, which is partially why I find myself in this predicament. But I just want to follow the plan the way it's written. And she seems to think that by maybe utilizing or taking money out of our 401k to pay down a big chunk of this debt would help us get a good head start and then

essentially we'd be paying ourselves back. I don't agree with that. You mean borrowing money out of the 401k? Yes, correct. Okay, all right. No, I would not do that. And the reasons are twofold. Number one, when you leave your company, and you will leave your company, when you die, when you get a better job and quit, or when they fire you, one of those three things will cause you to leave your company.

When you leave your company, if that loan has not been repaid, it is considered an early withdrawal, and you'll be taxed at your rate plus a 10% penalty on that amount, and I would never do that for that reason. Number two, you know, mutual funds are performing way better than you would be paying yourself. Here's the problem. The intrinsic problem in that question or in that suggestion is not even the, you know, I just gave you the real reasons not to do a 401k loan. That's not really the problem. The problem is you guys got into debt looking for a shortcut to get stuff that you couldn't afford.

Now you're looking for a shortcut to get out, and there's not one. Understood. That's the problem. The two of you together have to sit down and go, you know what, we are not going to live our life as a life of shortcuts. We're going to live like no one else so that later we can live and give like no one else. And that's what's at the center of this. And I don't blame her.

I would rather do something the easiest way, too. But it ends up, here's the other thing that you can bring up and you guys can talk through. One of the things I found, and I found this many years ago, the first time. I've seen it in several studies since then. But the first time I saw it, it was just eye opening to me that wealthy people, when they are making decisions about purchases or money decisions, have a planning window, an analysis calendar window of 10 or 20 years out. They ask themselves, when I do this, is it smart 10 or 20 years out. They ask themselves, when I do this, is it smart 10 or 20 years out? Poor people that stay poor, broke people that stay poor, have a planning window of Friday. Thank God it's Friday. Oh, God, it's Monday.

Does this feel good right now, in other words? And the question of borrowing on your 401K is not quite Friday, but it's by Christmas. It feels better. But if you look out 10 years, it doesn't look better at all. It's a really dumb idea to have put your whole whole thing at risk on a 30 percent or a 40 percent hit at that rate. Now, you know, I can't make anybody do anything and I don't try to. So your wife is going to think what she's going to think. You guys are going to do what you're going to do. But those are the reasons that I don't recommend using borrowed money on your 401k. Number one,

you're unplugging good investments that might have made you 12 and you're going to pay yourself five or six. It might have made you more than 12. Number two, when you leave your company, if you have not paid the loan back, you have a huge mess because you're going to get hit with your tax rate plus 10%. So that's probably a 30 or a 40% hit on that money. It's like borrowing money at 30% interest. That's why you don't cash out your 401k to pay off your debts. Number three, it's a sense of a shortcut that's not real. And just like going into debt in the first place was a shortcut to get stuff that wasn't real, and it causes you problems. Number four, it's short-term thinking instead of long-term thinking,

and wealthy people always use long-term thinking. By the way, almost all long-term thinking has short-term pain. Almost all short-term thinking has long-term pain and short-term relief, and that's what this is. It's short-term relief with long-term pain. And that's how you know it's wrong. That's how you know it's the wrong way to go.

And there's just no shortcut to any places worth going. So those are your four reasons. That's why you don't do it. Now you guys get to sit down and talk about whether you're going to do it or not. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. There's nothing smart about smartphones

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Thank you, guys. Wow. YouTube's a big deal. We know it's a big deal, but this is big. I mean, a million subscribers to the Daveave ramsey show youtube page thank you and um and again people are searching on youtube for information we've got tons of videos on there bazillions of videos on there and so they find us and 20 million views a month right now on YouTube. Thank you. Absolutely amazing.

Robert is in Arizona. Hey, Robert, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hello, Dave. Hey, what's up? Hey, thanks for taking my call. I need a sanity check. I'm 66. My wife's 64.

I'll be retiring this year. She's already retired. We own a home, basically debt-free. We have a very small mortgage, but a rental property on the mortgage pays, or on the property pays the mortgage. I have $250,000 in my TSP account, and our retirement income is going to be around $60,000 net with her Social Security and my retirement. I want to do something with horses once I retire, and I have an opportunity to purchase some horse property that has income potential on 20 acres, already developed with 20 stalls and round pens and arenas and the whole nine yards, water, sewer, power, for sale under market price.

The person just wants to get out from under it. But in order to purchase it, I would need to deplete my 401k, my TSP, and take out a loan for about $200,000 to do it. Now, if we did that and there was no income produced, then, of course, the mortgage would be about half, maybe a little more than our monthly income, but the potential for income is there. So I might be completely foolish into even considering this. Okay, so the property, the horse property costs how much? Horse property is about $450,000.

Okay, and you've got $250,000 in your TSP. Correct. And there's also a 401K on top of that? A small one, but it's my wife's, and it's got about $30,000 in it. Okay. So you have $280,000 to your name. Yes. Okay, and you said something about a rental property. Well, I have a small piece of property on my house in my house property which pays the mortgage on our house so we basically don't have any debt we've had a

renter in there for a year so you have debt you just have a renter that pays the payment correct it's not basically not debt you basically is debt so how much debt how much debt do you have on the house uh we owe 150 on the house and our mortgage is 750 a month oh that's a lot that's not basically no debt there's a lot of debt okay all right um and um well basically here we go to the word basically again. What is occurring here is that your retirement is in pretty good shape. You're a little heavy in debt on your house. You have a rental house on the same land as your personal residence? Yes. It's a small casita.

Okay. And it rents for $750 a month? Correct. Okay. All right. If you don't do the horse thing at all, then there's a, you know, the retirement is set pretty easy. You've dialed yourself in. You're going to be okay. You know, you're going to be fine. If you do the horse thing, basically what we're saying is that you're going to go, in essence, $450,000 in debt to open a business at 66 years old with horses. Yes.

Well, if you were 26 or 66, I would not tell you to go $450,000 in debt to open a business. I don't tell people to go in debt to open businesses. And that is the essence of what's going on here. You want to mess with horses, and you can do it a lot cheaper than a half million dollars. There's a lot of ways to mess with horses. Obviously, you can buy half million dollar horses, but we don't want to do that either. But that's how you turn a large fortune into a small fortune. How do you make a...

Well, I look at it as taking the TSP, which is a liquid account, and turning it into property, which could generate it. But you didn't, because you've still got a $150,000 mortgage on your house, and you're going to be deeply in debt on this property. I mean, if you fall off one of those horses, your wife is in a mess. Mm-hmm. Okay, well, that's what I was looking for. I mean, there's way too much risk here.

I think there's other ways to live your dream of messing with horses that don't entail putting your entire fortune at risk and leaving your wife in a mess if you fall off on one of them. I think this is just fraught with danger. You've just gotten excited about the horse idea. It's something you've always wanted to do. And I don't want to steal that from you. I would just do it in a way that was more wise than this.

These numbers scare the crud out of me. want to steal that from you i would just do it in a way that was more wise than this these numbers scare the crud out of me um if this thing doesn't work it's probably not going to be kind of medium it's probably either going to completely tank because something happens to you and you're not able to work it with you like you think you're going to or it's going to do okay and you're going to be all right it's probably not going to be in the middle where it's just kind of a strain and you just kind of a backache and wished you hadn't done it it's probably going to be a disaster or it's probably going to be okay and it's the disaster side that scares me it's why i wouldn't do it but i don't think that means that you have

to sit on your butt and not do the horse dream. Let's just find another way to do it that doesn't cost $450,000. And let's enter this arena with a little more gradual step. I might take 50 or 100 of your TSP and do something for cash and get some kind of a horse business started if you want to do that. Maybe lease somebody's property and you run the operation. That would be a way to do it as an example. And, you know, start you a little business in that area, that kind of a thing. But no, I think you're taking on, I think you're biting off a really big thing here

and I just, I wouldn't do it. Thanks for the call. Caitlin is with us in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Hi, Caitlin. How are you? I'm doing well, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve.

What's up? Okay, so my mother and father own 60 acres about an hour north of us, and my mom just informed us that just the 20 acres they personally live on is worth $1.2 million, and I'm guessing that all of it combined is going to be worth $2 million. And that doesn't include their foundation business or their retirement or their investments. And they have not updated their will in over 20 years. Okay. And with a, as you would say, like powdered butt syndrome, I really want them to not only update it,

but kind of sit down with my siblings because I have two siblings and discuss either how they would want us to split this in case something happened to them or what their plan is because my husband and I do not want to live up that far north. Okay. So in 20 or 40 years, we don't want to be there. So are your parents people of faith? Yes, they are. Okay. The way I would approach it is through that lens then and just say, you know, Mom and Dad, we've been studying this stuff,

and actually having a will and laying out a game plan is good stewardship. You're managing a lot of God's assets. I don't want you to do this because I want something. I'm not trying to get on the list. I'm not trying to get on Santa Claus's good list here. That's not what I'm trying to do. But as your daughter, I want two things. One is I want you to be good stewards and good managers,

and you're not being because you haven't updated your will. Number two, you're setting us up as siblings to not get along. You're setting us up to have conflict because you've not been extremely clear with your will and with conversations with us as to what you want done with this stuff. I don't care, Mom, what you want to do with this stuff. I just care that you tell us what you want done with this stuff and that you put it down in the form of a will. And that's all you can have. That's a good conversation to have.

Good luck with that. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Have you ever thought about sitting down one-on-one and helping coach people through their money issues like you play? You're driving along and you try to answer the question before I do while you're listening to the show. Well, you might be a future coach. You really might. And we have the best online program to prepare you to become a financial coach. Whether you're a CPA, a teacher, a bus driver, a nurse, I don't care.

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So, again, noon this Thursday, March the 21st, a free informational webinar. To register for the webinar, text the word COACHING to 33789. That's COACHING to 33789. Phil is in Chicago. Hi, Phil. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for taking my call.

Sure. I have a question regarding just some stuff from my mom. She is about to lose her job on Friday, and we're just trying to figure out what the next steps for her should be. What does she make a year? She makes $45,000 a year. Where does she live? She lives in an apartment in Geneva, Illinois, so it's near Chicago.

Okay. What does she do for a living? She works as a, right now it's been assistant to the team lead of a manager company for J.P. Morgan. Okay. How long has she been there? Uh, 20 years. Ooh. Why is she losing her job? Uh, because they have, uh, eliminated her position. Okay. All right. Yeah. How long has she known this? Uh, she has known that it was coming for probably about the last six, seven months. We were kind of like, okay, are they going to do anything? Are they going to move forward?

And then they finally let her know about three weeks ago. And how many job leads has she got right now? She is currently looking, and I'm trying to help her find other work right now. So for seven months she's known, for three weeks she's known for sure, and she's got no job leads. Yeah, she's been pretty busy with some other things. My dad is currently in the – what's up? Your dad's what?

My dad's in a nursing home, and so she's been trying to also help take care of him and trying to take care of some other things. How old is she? 62. Okay. All right. Her biggest problem is not the job market.

Her biggest problem is she's been in the same place for 20 years, and this has broken her heart. It hurt her feelings. It made her feel like she's not okay, and it shook her confidence. And the reason she's not got any job leads is she's found about a bazillion reasons to not go look for a job because she is scared to death of more rejection. Does that sound wrong? I don't make her normal.

I know that some of it is debt. I know that some of it is she doesn't have a ton in her retirement fund, and she's just worried about trying to make it through. Debt didn't keep her from looking for a job, and no money in her retirement fund didn't keep her from looking for a job. Yeah, that's fair. Right? Those are reasons she needs a job.

And they're reasons that her fear might be increased in this situation. And your dad's in the nursing home. What's wrong with your dad? My dad has multiple sclerosis and a seizure disorder. Wow. Yeah. So this lady, if she's not scared, she's not a normal human being. Most of us would be scared.

I'm losing a job after 20 years. My husband has MS and is in a nursing home and has seizure disorders. And I don't have a lot for retirement, and I've got some debt. I'm scared to death if I'm her. And if you don't watch, the reason I'm bringing this up is it'll paralyze her and steal her confidence when she goes to look for a job, and she needs to have some confidence. When you go in to get a job, you've got to have a little swagger. You kind of got to strut in, you know?

Like, you guys need me bad because I'm the coolest thing ever. You know? Not quite that bad, but you got to have a little of that. You can't go in with your head bowed down and go, oh, please God, hire me. My world is coming to an end. That is not a good job interview technique. Is that right? Yeah.

Okay. So I want you to go to KenColeman.com, the Ken Coleman show that he has on free downloadable things. One is how to put together a resume, and one is how to interview for a job. And we're going to have to take her back to her 30-year-old self emotionally and dust her off. She's gotten knocked down in the dirt. We've got to stand her up, dust her off, and get her clothes pressed and get her in

the job market because she needs a job doesn't she yes and that's the big she she needs to be working on this like her life depends on it and and it's natural to draw back from this and think that this is a bad thing by the way she's in chicago and she makes $45,000 a year. It's not exactly like she was in a job that wasn't replaceable. She probably, if we get her head on straight about this, can go make more money than she used to make. This is probably going to be a blessing at the end of the story. But that's going to be dependent upon how she holds her head, the attitude of her chin going forward here. And so it's a decision. So she's scared.

She's got a lot of stuff piled on her. And the way you can help her best is to walk along beside her put your arm around her and whisper in her ear how great she is and how she could go make $65,000 a year let's go look for that and get that right now mom

by the end of next week and go do 10 job interviews next week there's a labor shortage of the type of things she does in Chicago right now there's a labor shortage. There's a lack of people that have skills and character doing what she's doing right now.

There's a lack of, there's a hole in the market. We have negative unemployment in some areas. We have a surplus of jobs in most metro areas, especially in the type of thing you're talking about right here. in some areas. We have a surplus of jobs in most metro areas, especially in the type of thing you're talking about right here. And so she can land something, and she'll probably get a raise, but she's going to have to decide that that's her destiny, not, oh, I got knocked off the horse, I'll never ride again.

No, no, no, no. Get back on a better horse. That's got to be the answer here. You can do this with her. And go to Ken's site and download those two things. Start working through this. Start resetting the confidence and resetting your expectations. It's fix your resume and nail the interview.

Two free downloadable things at KenColeman.com. And they're both very, very valuable. They'll get you there. And she can do this. I'm glad she's got you there in her corner to whisper in her ear that she's better than she feels like right now in the middle of all her fear. She is better than she feels like. That's the truth. It's not hype. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

So, guys, what's the moral of the story? The moral of the story is when you get a seven-month notice, take it. Count on it. If you start hinting to me that I'm going to be gone in seven months, I'm going to try to be gone in seven days. I'm going to help you with that. And I'm going to go make more money to prove that you're stupid for eliminating my position. Oh, I might even go in business with you and compete with you.

Give me seven months notice. Hey, listen, you get that kind of notice, you get your life in order. You get things lined up and you kick them people to the curb because they're about to do that to you. They're treating you like a commodity, so act like one. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Our Scripture of the Day, Proverbs 19, 20 and 21. Listen to advice and accept discipline, and at the end you will be counted among the wise. Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails. My friend John Maxwell says, A leader is one who knows the way,

goes the way, and shows the way. Mary is in Seattle. Hi, Mary. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. I'm happy to get to talk to you. Better than I deserve. How can I help?

Do I have a question about what you would think about the settlement companies They're horrible And so is your phone Speak directly into it I can't hear you Okay I'm going to have to come back to you

When you can get to where you can talk Okay Sarah is in Rhode Island Hi Sarah welcome to the Dave Ramsey show Hi Dave thanks for taking my call today Sure Okay, Sarah is in Rhode Island. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for taking my call today. Sure. So I'm calling because my church is looking to build an addition onto the side of our church building,

and they're looking at possibly getting a mortgage for it. And we do have enough money in the bank to cover it, but they want to split half mortgage and half paying it straight up in order to make people who are more comfortable without having money in the bank. How do I convince them to not go the way of debt? And how can I also help encourage people to give more as well? Because we're having to pull money out of our investments every year in order to make our annual budget. How many people in the church? We have about 80, somewhere between 80 and 100 that regularly attend. And what is your position in the church?

I'm the administrative assistant to the pastor as well as the clerk and just a member as well. Okay. So do you think you'll be listened to? I think you would be probably, but are you a person, do you think you're a person of credibility that they would listen to? I certainly hope so. Part of my concern is that I've grown up around a lot of these people. I'm 28 and a lot of them have known me since I was literally a baby. So I'm worried that some of them will see me as a child, maybe not intentionally, but to some degree.

Yeah, they have to have worked around you since you were 14. If they've worked around you lately, you're obviously articulate. The way you presented this was very clear and very objective. And so you're carrying your weight. I can tell that. But if they hadn't been around you, they might not see that. So that could be a problem. Okay, that's a good answer.

Well, there's a couple things. What kind of church, what brand? We're Seventh-day Baptists. It's basically your normal Baptist, but we go to church on Saturday instead. Okay. We do Saturdays. Well, most of the time when I hear any versionday Baptist, it's basically your normal Baptist, but we go to church on Saturday instead. Okay. We do Saturday as a Sabbath. Well, most of the time when I hear any version of Baptist, I hear Bible-believing evangelical. Am I right?

Exactly, yeah. Okay. All right. Then that's a lens we can use to have a discussion. Okay? Mm-hmm. Here's what Larry Burkett used to say a hundred years ago it feels like now when i first heard him he said that oftentimes the influencers in the church the elders the deacons of people

sitting on the church board are men and women in business and the church board sometimes looks like the chamber of commerce and so it's a car dealer, a whole life agent, a banker, and the guy that owns the hardware store. And they all run businesses. And so the pastor, who's a little bit intimidated by business, listens to the business people, and they make business decisions for the church through the lens of a business, not through the lens of Scripture.

And that's a mistake. And so I would warn against that, that you don't make, you know. I actually sat on a church board one time and had a guy look at me and yell at me across the table, well, I'm a banker, I know money. And I looked at the pastor and I said, and he's the pastor and he knows the Bible. Which is why we're here, the way banker boy and so that meeting didn't go well but um anyway um this is why i don't serve on boards but because i'm always right but anyway so you don't want to do you don't want to do that okay but what the approach i would use

is say pastor i think it's really important that you pray about this and think about how we're making this decision and i know that you would never make a decision that wasn't biblical right and i think you're gonna have a hard time finding borrowed money in the Bible ever mentioned positively. It's not there. Every time borrowed money is mentioned in the Bible, you're a fool, you're a slave, it's a curse. Oh, no, man, nothing but a debt of love, even in Romans. There's some argument as to whether that actually means debt, but it just means relational debt.

But either way, every time the word or the concept debt is mentioned all through Scripture, it's negative. Right. So all the biblical indicators are don't do it. And, Pastor, you don't do things, you don't preach a sermon to make people feel good you preach a sermon to help people align their lives with the truth of scripture and sometimes that feels good and sometimes it's a little bit of an ouchie and so if God is telling us to build this he will give us the money oh wait a minute he already did right

so we should pay cash we should pay cash yeah and 80 people 80 people don't need to be in debt right right it's a good way and i had brought up to him um the potential of me leading um fpu um about a year ago and i couldn't quite nail him down on the yes or a no. So how can I go about? Well, there's a reason. Yeah, good point. He does not want that information spread around there because that will make these decisions ridiculously hard.

Right, right. Yeah, it's hard for a church to have the whole church go through fpu and then turn around to a building program and go in debt it's very difficult instead what happens is actually if you take the whole congregation through giving will go up because people will get out of debt and get on a budget and when they get out of that get on a budget their giving goes up because people that love jesus don't it's not that they don't give um because they don't want to it's because they don't have any money love jesus don't it's not that they don't give um because they don't want to it's because they don't have any money broke people just don't give it's a simple equation

and so anyway yeah you can try that um and again i think it's going to have a lot to do with whether you or banker bob has more influence with pastor's ear there that's what it's going to come down to but biblically speaking you cannot proof text this you cannot come up with a bible reason that this is okay there's not one i've been doing this 30 years and i get hate mail all the time and people trying to prove it and no one's ever been able to find a single verse in all of Scripture. There's 2,600 verses in Scripture dealing with money and possessions, and 100% of the debt references are negative. There's not even one you can make a case with.

And you can't even go back and say, well, culturally, you just can't do it. I mean, you've just got to go, okay, we're not evangelicals. We don't believe the Bible in its literal form. You just have to go and say that. And if you say that, then you can just do about anything you want to do then. And so that allows you to go wherever you want to go. And that's what people do sometimes, and I understand that. But no, no, that's how I would approach it.

And I will tell you that in my history in churches, as a church member or as a board member or one of the leaders and lay leaders in the church, I have had this conversation, and it's sometimes productive and it's sometimes not. And so it's just the thing is be gentle and kind and don't cause a big row. Don't cause big problems, all that kind of stuff. You know, just sit down and, you know, be don't damage relationships for the next 20 years based on one conversation like I did with old banker Bob there. That didn't that didn't go well and he still doesn't like me and i kind of understand so i get it well basically i tell people not to do what he does every day so it's okay all right that puts this hour of the dave ramsey show in the books we'll be back with you before you know it in the meantime meantime, remember, there is

ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus. Hey guys, it's Blake Thompson, Senior Executive Producer for The Dave Ramsey Show. This hour's over, but you can find more great content on our YouTube channel. Catch the most watched Dave Rants,

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