The Ramsey Show - App - There's No Shortcut to Any Place Worth Going (Hour 2)

Episode Date: February 10, 2020

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

That's 888-825-5225. Mark is with us in Oklahoma City. Hey, Mark, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. How you doing, Dave? Better than I deserve. What's up? Okay. I have an opportunity to obtain a sponsorship to get my Series 7 license. And I wanted to know if I cut back on my job and the goal of paying off the home to obtain this goal. To study for the test, you know, it would probably take five months or so. So it's a very short-term goal. The house is obviously about a three- or four-year goal. We're currently in baby step four, five, and six. So how much income will you lose when you cut back?

So that's the other kind of thing that kind of throws my thinking off. In June of last year, I got laid off from my job, and I've been laid off this entire time. Recently, we self-funded our way to go to truck driving school, and I got done with that, and now I have a job driving a truck, and I'm making uh about sixty thousand dollars a year there uh you said when i cut you said when i study for my series seven i'm going to cut back on my job what do you mean by that well i'm working uh 13 14 hour days and i'm also

going to school online to obtain a bachelor's degree in finance. And so all of it together, it's just kind of a lot. And I think, like, I'm focusing on so many different areas, and I'm not really focused in one area, so I feel like all the other areas might sacrifice a little bit. Okay. Okay. I still haven't heard how you're working 14 hours a day driving a truck. Yes. Yes.

Okay. And you can cut that back to instead of 60 or 70 hours a week, you can cut it back to 40? I don't think I can cut back that job. I would have to go find another temporary job for the time being because I don't think they're going to allow me to cut back that job that I'm in now. Okay. And so you went from being laid off to making $60,000. Thankfully, you got a job, and now you're getting ready to change jobs again

so that you can cut back your hours. Yeah, the opportunity came up to obtain a sponsorship for the Series 7. It came up while I was in the truck driving school. So it was just kind of like, okay, we got this. I've had a Series 7. The opportunity to get a sponsorship for that is not a big deal. People hire people every day to sell stock and sell mutual funds and get a Series 7, and they sponsor them all the time to do that.

Most every company out there that's hiring will sponsor you to do that. That's not like you got into med school or something. It's not that rare. It's not that big a deal. The taking the test is very hard. It's about like, it's about like taking a CPA. I mean, it's a rough test. Not sure it's a five month prep, but it's a, it's a hard 90 day prep. Um, and you know, so what is it you want to do with your lifelong term? My lifelong goal is to be a financial advisor. That's definitely what I want to do. Okay, cool.

And so you're making $60 now. Now, if you cut back to $40 in a different job, what would that job pay? I think probably, you know, maybe $15, 15 17 an hour okay and um and you would take like 40 hours yeah and i would invest time in school and then invest time in uh also studying for the series seven i've tried doing it this way but i I just feel like I'm not retaining the information that I need to retain and that, you know, I'm just focused in too many different areas. Oh, yeah, it's hard to study for a Series 7 and work 14 hours a day. I got that. That's logical.

What I'm trying to do is figure out how to feed your family because you're making $60,000 and you're getting ready to go to $30,000. Well, my wife also makes my wife also makes 40 000 so we would have a right now currently we have a combined income of 90 000 but you wouldn't then you would have a combined income of about 65 or 70 yes and we have been making it just fine for the last six months on unemployment uh making what i was making there on On unemployment, I was making $1,760 a month. Okay. All right. Well, basically, what you need to understand,

and the reason I'm asking all these questions is, you're paying $30,000 for the opportunity to take the Series 7. That's what you're telling me. You're going to give up $30,000 of income to go take your Series 7. So would you recommend, like, putting it on hold until... No, no, I just want you to say that out loud. And what that brings me to when I say it that way is I wonder if there's something you can get that's better than $17 an hour. If you could get a more traditional 40-hour in-town route type of a thing that's not $17 an hour.

$17 an hour for CDL sounds low to me. It is low. I wouldn't be using my CDL if I did that. I would just be going and getting, you know, a job that I could work 40 hours a week. Okay. Let's try to get a – I mean, if you've got an in-town route, that's not a 14-hour-a-day thing. That's true. You could get an in-town route, maybe making 40 or 50, and let's kick that up,

and then you're paying 10 or 20 of lost income in order to take your Series 7. I think that's a better way of looking at this rather than just going, you know, well, no matter what it costs, I'm going to take my time off. No, that's – no, we need to have a little better plan on the income during the interim. But, yeah, I think you pursue this, and you're right. I'm not arguing the point that, I mean, again, I'm taking that test. It was a long, long time ago, but that's a tough test. It's right up there with taking CPA or something along those lines,

and so you really do have to study. I took my real estate license test when I was 18 years old in 27 minutes. It was not a tough to study. And I got a 94. But that test was stupid. It's a lot harder now. That was a long time ago. But, you know, Series 7, 7 series 63 that stuff's real so you

really do have to use some brain cells on that one yeah i think you do this but i think you slow down enough in the in in this process to land a good cdl job 40 hours a week before you quit the 14 hourhour day job. Then you start the Series 7 stuff. But you don't just go, well, no matter what it costs, I'm going to go do it. No, no, that's not going to be smart. There's a way to do this that's more gradual and wise, and that's what I would tell you to do. So, good question.

Thank you for joining us. We're glad you're here. This is common sense for your dollars and cents. And sometimes it's just you and me talking it through, baby. And life is just entertaining. That's why our ratings are so high and 15 million of you tune in every week. Thank you for doing that. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. show. I love talking about companies that know how to do business right.

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That's Blinds.com. Slash Ramsey. That's Blinds.com slash Ramsey. Emily is in Indiana. Dave, I haven't heard you mention the LIRP, the Life Insurance Retirement Policy, in terms of retirement investing. It seems like a Roth IRA, but through an insurance company, with life insurance included. I'm debt-free, and I've been super approved. Oh, wow.

It's always good to get super approved as opposed to just approved for an LIRP through a company. Investing in an LIRP sounds like a good idea. Why would you not recommend investing in it? Because it sucks. That's why. It's a horrible rate of return. Anytime you get involved with a cash value life insurance policy, you are going to get

horrible terms and high expenses. And so there's just no exceptions to that. Some are slightly better than others, but one sucks and the others just double sucks. And you just don't, there's no point in doing this. Listen, you're much better off to do your investing in good investments. There are no good life insurance investment products. There's none. There's none that can keep up with decent growth stock mutual funds invested in your 401k and in your Roth IRA. We've just finished surveying 10,162 millionaires, asking them how they got there.

Do you know how many of them got to be millionaires because they bought cash value life insurance product to become wealthy not one said i did all my investing in cash value in l value, in LIRPs, in indexed universal life policies, in universal policies, in variable life policies. Not one out of 10,000 said they built their wealth using life insurance as an investment product. Not even one. I mean, my God, you would think that a blind hog could find an acre never so often, that at least one out of 10,000 could become millionaires.

But these products suck so bad that they suck the very bone marrow out of your cash flow, and they put it down a rat hole. You're flushing it down the toilet, and it virtually guarantees you're not going to build wealth. So when you're arrogant, got their glasses down on the tip of his nose, rolling his eyes about Dave Ramsey, insurance agent. Says, well, all the wealthy use cash value life insurance.

Let me just tell you, I have done, our company is doing with Chris Hogan, the largest study of millionaires in North America ever done, and not one of them. Not even one. You would think one at least. I mean, there were more people that became wealthy using CDs, making nothing on their money, than they did using insurance as an investment product. They all say.

I mean, like 89%, 91% say, I used mutual funds for my Roth IRAs and my 401ks, and I put money in there, and I paid off my house in 10.2 years. And this is almost every one of them. So the deal is this. Not one. Have I made myself clear not even one of these millionaires that we've interviewed i have i cannot think of anyone i've talked to in 30 years of doing this i said dave you know i made my money the thing that caused me to become wealthy was I invested in life insurance.

I've never heard that. Not once. Now, I will admit to a bias on that because I tell people it's stupid. For 30 years, I've told people it's stupid. So I'm not likely to run into somebody that goes, hey, I'm stupid. So if they know it's me now the survey the research we did did not know it was me doing the research so they were not biased in their answers but you know if i'm talking to somebody here on the air they're not likely to call up and go you know i got rich using whole life life insurance from northwestern mutual i've never heard that i mean buying life and buying whole life life insurance from Northwestern Mutual, it's kind of like buying a $100,000 boat.

It's a good way to turn $100,000 into $10,000. You know, it's a good way to take a billionaire and make them into a millionaire. You know, it just, so let's just not be unclear about this. There's no data anywhere except hypothetical examples by your whole life agent, by your cash value life insurance agent that says this is a good idea. It's just not a good idea, folk. Hope I wasn't unclear. Brandy is on Facebook and says, Dave, what are your thoughts on prepaying

funeral expenses? I wouldn't. I would pre-plan it, but I wouldn't prepay it. Because were you to take that same amount of money and invest it in decent growth stock mutual funds, you'd have a lot more money than the cost of the funeral has increased. When you prepay anything, your rate of return

on your investment is how much it goes up in cost. So what's the inflation rate of funerals? If the inflation rate of funerals is 12% a year, which it's not, then you'd be making 12% on your money by prepaying. Inflation rate on funerals, however, runs more like 3%, so you're making 3% on your money if you invested the money at 10% or 12%. And when the cost of the funeral went up by 3% a year, you'd still come out like way ahead. You see what I'm doing? So you don't prepay anything way into the future like that.

I would preplan it, and you can go down and say, I want the Chevrolet coffin, I want the Cadillac coffin, I want the Bentley coffin. I want the thing that leaks because I never could swim or doesn't leak because I never could swim or whatever. I don't know. Whatever it is you want with your vault and all that stuff, you go down there and pick it all out and look at the costs, and then your relatives don't have to do that while they're grieving,

and they don't have to make a $10,000, $15,000 worth of decisions, $5,000 worth of decisions while they're grieving, because you don't make nearly as good a decision when you do that. So I do believe in pre-planning your funeral, and you know, here's another thing, get your will done and make sure you have life insurance in place. These are the processes that you go to. Lance is on Facebook. What's your word on points for travel earned by credit cards? Why is it a bad decision? When you use a credit card, Lance, you spend more money than when you use a debit card. And in either case, you spend more money than when you use a debit card, and in either case you spend more money than when you use cash.

When you lay $100 bills on the table or $20 bills on the table, you realize you spent money. It activates the pain centers of the brain, literally. MRI studies done at MIT indicate this, that the pain centers of the brain are activated when you spend with cash. When you spend with credit card, with plastic, you don't realize you spent money as much. And even the most disciplined that feel like, oh, I'm not really buying stuff just to get points, you are. The very fact that you ask the question

tells me that you're willing to spend money just to get points. And having met with, again, thousands of millionaires, I've never met one that said, Dave, you know, I made all my money with my airline miles. The high quality of my lifestyle, Dave, is because of my airline miles. If you spend like no one else on your credit card, later you can live like no one else on your airline miles. No one ever said that saying. If you spend $100,000 on your credit card, you can fly on a flight.

It's kind of expensive. Kind of stupid. You're falling into their trap. You're not winning. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. I get asked all the time about what people need to do to improve their family's money situation. Two of the most overlooked things are term life insurance and disability insurance. Both plans make sure that you have income to pay bills and take care of yourself and your family if something were to happen. For term life, you need to carry 10 to 12 times your income, and I recommend 15 or 20-year plans for most families.

Stay away from cash value or return of premium plans. They're just a ripoff. Disability insurance is just as critical. How are you going to pay your bills if you're unable to work? Disability is the leading cause of bankruptcies and foreclosures, and that's why I send you to Zander Insurance. They've been helping my listeners find the right plans at the lowest cost for almost 20 years. Call 800-356-1780 or visit zander.com and compare online. That's 800-356-1780 or Zander.com. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions, Jim and Patricia are with us.

Hey, guys, how are you? Great. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. Welcome. Where do you live? We're in Bethel, Connecticut. That's a bit of a haul to Nashville.

A little bit. It's worth the trip. Well, thanks for coming down to do your debt-free scream in person. Oh, yeah. And so how much have you paid off? We paid off. I have my notes, $30,736. Great. How long did that take?

21 months. Good for you. And your range of income during that time? We started at $64,000, and we ended at $82,000. Cool. Good for you. What do you guys do for a living? Well, I'm a deli manager in a local grocery store chain up in Bethel, but out of New Fairfield. Got it.

Cool. I work at Peach Wave. It's a local frozen yogurt shop. It's fun. Good for you guys. Good. So what kind of debt was this $31,000? Well, we had two cars, some medical debt, dentist, and a really big family loan.

A big family loan. Correct. Oh, who did you owe money to? My grandfather. Did it feel good to get rid of that in particular? Absolutely. We got rid of it quicker than he even wanted us to. Yep.

Wow, very good. So how long have you guys been married? Six years. Six years. Six years. Okay. And 21 months ago, something happened. What happened?

We were discussing this yesterday. I think we were just sick and tired of living paycheck to paycheck. We couldn't even get pre-approved for a home. We had this vision of owning a home together and it was just not, it was not happening. Nobody wanted anything to do with us really. The banks, of course. And growing up, I had never been told no. Thanks mom and dad. So it was a reality check for sure that we just, I couldn't do it anymore. Something had to change.

Yeah, we just, again, going paycheck to paycheck and having just enough to pay our bills and possibly go out to eat once a week. If that, it just, it was tiring and we couldn't do it anymore. Good. So what happened? Well, this is where I'm going to give a shout-out to a girl I went to high school with. Her name is Claire. I'm really active on social media, and I think I probably just had one of those down-and-out days,

and I was complaining, and here she comes and tells me, you've got to read this book. And I just had you sign it. And like I said, I've had it wrapped. I don't let anybody borrow that one. I buy your book whenever I can, and I give it as gifts. But that one stays close to home. And it was a total money makeover. And I think I read that in December.

And we jumped right on board in January. It didn't take much more than reading the book. I think I was crying after the first chapter. Wow. Very cool. So, Jim, she's reading this book crying, and what did you say? I said, what's going on? There's not something.

If you're crying, there's got to be something going on. And she just showed me the book, and I said, you're crying over a book. Who's this guy, Dave? But, no, she got to explaining it and I jumped on board right it right in the beginning and I said we have to do this we have to give it a try and then um lo and behold our I'm gonna give a shout out now that we had uh Dave and Carol they go to our local church that we attend also, and they were running a class. So we jumped on board the financial peace class and it was game on from there. And now we actually go to their they had another class and we went and we were, if you want to call it guest speakers, because we finished the program.

Because you did it. Yeah. Wow. So it was great, and we can't compliment it enough. Well, congratulations, you guys. I'm proud of you. Yeah. So what do you tell people the key is when they say you paid off $31,000?

How did you do that? What's the key to getting out of debt? A budget. And we said that's you know that's what everyone says but there's really no other way to to explain it it's just do a budget and stick to the budget and don't go off don't go off the budget yeah you're your number one thing and just do it and you can't overdo it don't go outside of it because you're just going to lose it from there if you get if you get off the road on the outside of it because you're just going to lose it from there.

If you get off the road on the way to Florida, you don't get to Florida as quick. No, no. You go to Georgia. That's it. In circles. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the whole program really just changed our lives. Jim mentioned the church, and I've been going to the same church since I was small.

But through the financial piece, he found a home at the church, and everyone was just so welcoming to him. I've been attending church, just me and my son. And it's amazing now to share that with Jim every Sunday. Amen. Very cool. It's great. So you met God in a new way in the process.

I sure did. Sure did. And I can't be more happy. That's good news right there. Well done, you guys. Thank you. Very, very proud of you. What was the hardest part of this for you guys?

I think saying no to the kids. Yeah. They definitely put a big strain on it, if you want to say. It was tough to tell them, no, we can't go here. No, we're taking a break from doing this how many kids and how old uh two i have a 16 year old and jim has an 11 year old so two boys yeah um two together yeah two teenagers not easy to tell no no no even we i took my son to the the store the other day not the other day but a couple months ago, and he said,

I went to pay with my debit card, and he said, Daddy, you don't use cards. You use cash now. I said, no, this one's all right. I can use this one. Yeah, they know. They know my son

will be going to college in about 18 months, and college choice is going to be huge for when we get to that. Yeah, get something that's affordable. Yeah.

Well done, you guys. Very, very proud of you. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Well, we've got a copy of Chris Hogan's book for you, Retire, Inspire. That is the next chapter in your story to be millionaires. Yes, sir.

And outrageously generous along the way. We're excited. Thanks so much for coming all the way from Connecticut to do your debt-free scream. Thank you for having us. Jim and Patricia, Hartford, Connecticut area, $31,000 paid off in 21 months, making $64,000 to $82,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one.

We're debt free! Love it! Well done, you guys. Fabulously done. Doesn't get any better than that. Man, awesome, awesome stuff. So Dylan is on Twitter and says, what do you think of rent to buy schemes instead of a mortgage well you said it you called it a scheme uh rent to buy is always marked up

there's always extra margin in it and the best thing to do is just continue to rent as inexpensively as you can build Build your emergency fund. And then build your down payment. If you move into a home with a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage where the payment is no more than a fourth of your take-home pay, put down a good, strong down payment, and you don't have any debt except that house, and you have your emergency fund in place the house will be a blessing to you but don't scheme and scam your way through this listen there is no shortcut to

any places worth going there's a straight line and just what they were saying there's you know if you're going to go to florida you figure out the thing you put it in your put it in your map app on your phone and it gives you the distance, or it gives you the long way around. And you can choose whichever one you want to do. But the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. So no kidding, Dave. Well, I mean, it's the truth. We try to figure out some way to shortcut the process to make it where we don't have to do this or I don't have to do that.

And listen, you have to. The people that build wealth, the people that become millionaires, they just have a very steady, basic, almost primitive plan. Get out of debt, stay out of debt, invest and save, and get their house paid off. Get out of debt, stay out of debt, invest and save, and get their house paid off. Get out of debt, stay out of debt, invest and save and get their house paid off. So what do all the data points tell us? I know there's a lot of theories out there, a lot of people trying to sell you something,

but that's the truth. It's kind of downright boring when you get right down to it. But it works. Don't scheme and scam. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. thanks for joining us elias is with us in eugene oregon hey elias how are you good how are you better than i deserve how can i Better than I deserve. How can I help? Well, I'm saving to go to law school. I have my bachelor's degree.

I'm living at home. And I'm wondering how to decide what expenses are acceptable and which aren't, because I really want to just put as much away as possible. I agree. Okay. Well, I think the thing is pretty simple. Law school is the primary directive right here, right? Yes. It's the goal.

And paying for it and doing that is everything. Anything you do that detracts from that is probably not as important, short of survival. So you going on spring break with your buddies is not on the list. Right. And you buying another car is not on the list. Law school is on the list. So I don't know what you're talking about spending money on. What is it?

I'm not spending money on anything right now. I mean, I'm still living like a college student good i mean i i spend money for insurance on my car yep and the most basic living expenses good and i'm i i'm afraid to spend money on anything else at this point and i'm wondering if i should just stay that way yes or okay because you want to be a lawyer more than you want to go to a restaurant. Yeah, yeah. You want to be a lawyer more than you want to dot, dot, dot. Yes. Fill in the blank.

Unless you find something that you want more than you want to be a lawyer, you don't spend money on it. Okay. And car insurance and food I want more than I want to be a lawyer. Yes. So you were doing right there. That's how I'm doing it. I'm measuring everything against that and going, you know,

if I don't have to have it, otherwise I'm not doing it because it's coming against my goal. And the point is we're not doing this. You're not living like this forever. You're living like this so that you're not a broke lawyer later. Right, yes. Because there's a lot of broke lawyers. Yeah, yes. You know know come out two hundred thousand

dollars in student loan debt and you know work 80 hours a week for 60 000 bucks a year to try to make partner five years from now that's called a broke lawyer and there's a bunch of them so you don't want to be that guy and you're trying to not be that guy so you're just measuring everything back against that is what i'm doing and it's you know, we're building a building down here right now that's a lot of money for a kid from Antioch, Tennessee, where I'm from. But, you know, I'm measuring everything against that. I don't want this other thing as bad as I want to make sure that building gets built. And so I'm pouring money into concrete and steel like it's going down a drain, man.

But that's, you know, we want that building because it's going to cause this company to run more efficiently and to be able to grow. And it's a great investment. And I want that more than I want just about anything else right now. And so I'm totally focused on that. And I'm not spending a bunch of personal money doing this or that or this or that or whatever. I'm still doing some things, but nothing is going to be big enough, no big enough purchase that it keeps that from happening. And so, you know, if you go spend a dollar on a Coca-Cola, it's not going to keep you

from going to law school. But if you do it every day for two years, it could starting to get there, starting to be a lot of money. So it's just you measure everything back against that and say, does this take me to my goal? I think you're on track. I don't think you're – if somebody's criticizing you for being tight, these are people that are broke and borrowing money to go to school. That's who's criticizing you is broke people.

Broke people are making fun of your financial plan. You're right on track, dude. Dimitri is with us in Canada. Hi, Dimitri. How are you? Hey, Dave. Good. How are you, yourself?

Pleasure to talk to you. You too. How can I help? Hey, so, yeah, I'm in Canada. Hi, Demetria. How are you? Hey, Dave. Good. Yourself? Pleasure to talk to you. You too. How can I help? Hey, so yeah, I'm from Canada. I'm 23. I've been listening to you for like two years or so on my way home, like your podcast. So thank you. Really quick question. So I'm graduating with my bachelor's degree this year. I was fortunate enough to have my parents really have a good college fund set up for me, so I was able to stay out of debt. I was able to save a lot of money working at the university, doing a lot of internships, and now I'm faced with the point with deciding whether I should do a master's degree or not. And I was wondering what you thought of that. So in my field, like a master's degree doesn't really increase my salary that much. But I really like the academic parts of university.

So I was just wondering what you thought. So what is your field? Computer science and math. Yeah, you're right. It doesn't affect it at all unless you're going to teach. Yeah. I'm playing around with a bunch of compound interest calculators and investing into mutual funds, like you say, and ETFs.

But I don't want to set myself back by doing a master's degree as well. So you have graduated from undergrad? I'm graduating next month. Oh, congratulations. Well done. So your options are take a job and not do the master's or do the master's and delay going to work, but working your way through the master's. How much money have you saved up? Around $50,000. How much? $50,000. $50,000.

And what does the master's cost? Well, I'd have to live. I was living with my parents, but I'd live not with my parents anymore if I were to do my master's. And I would say it would cost around like $35,000 with living costs, car insurance and whatnot. Okay. So the university you're working for, you'd continue to work there and get a break on tuition, I assume. Well, I'd go to a different university to do my master's. Okay. So you're paying $35,000 to go get a master's.

Now, then, the question is, there's nothing wrong with that, but you just need to ask yourself the question because you're asking me, so I'm going to ask you why um i feel like you'll make me more competitive uh in the job market after i graduate uh i also bull you already told me it doesn't matter in your field and it doesn't i heard i heard computer science people and tech people all day long the difference in a master's and a bachelor's is nothing. It's whether or not you can do the job is all that matters. Master's is not a precursor to being successful in that field. It is if you're going to be a counselor.

It is if you're going to do some other stuff. But by and large, it's not going to pay for itself anytime soon. You're right. You're right. That's what I was calling back. And it's okay if you want to get one just because you like the academic challenge and you want to spend your money that you have saved on that academic challenge. I'm not mad at you about that if you want to do it.

I'm just making sure you understand the why and you don't rationalize the crap out of this. The why is you like the academic experience. You think this is going to be fun. You'd like to have that MS after your name, which is not a bad thing, dude. But is it going to ROI? Is it going to give you a return on investment in the next decade? Probably not.

Exactly, yeah. That's what I was calling to ask. I don't want to, like, dash my savings and then be back to kind of square one. Yeah. It's okay to do that because I think you can come out and make good money, and you're just delaying the start of your career, and it's a good time to do a master's if you're going to do one. Of course, the other option is go on and go to work

and let that company that pays for tuition pay for it for you, and you take your master's at night. That's another way of doing it, which is probably the best way to do it. But, I mean, I'm not saying it's completely worthless in the economic world but um you know i've got about 200 folks in tech on our team and it you know their certifications if they're doing software stuff is are more important than whether or not they've got a master's in information systems or in computer science and if you're going into the computer world the tech world hardware software whether or not you can physically, mathematically, coding, whatever it is, actually do the job, you can make that little box blink when it's supposed to blink. That's how you get paid.

Right. And that's how we pay folk around here. I mean, I got Ruby on Rails guys making serious bank. If they're a senior programmer, they're making money. And a lot of them don't, some of them don't even have undergrad degrees. But they're Ruby on Rails programmers, and they're making serious six-figure money. And so it has nothing to do with the degree in that world. And, you know, I've got some four-year degree guys on the team,

and some of them have masters in business with specialization in information systems and other things, and some of them end up in leadership and other stuff. They're all over the building here. But it's nothing wrong with being educated, nothing wrong with being smart, but let's just know why you're doing it because you're getting ready to give up $35,000 of your money. What I would do if I were in your shoes is I'd find a place to go to work and let them pay for it, and you take it at night. And while you're working there, see if maybe you would want to do certifications rather than the master's, or both.

There's nothing wrong with getting smarter. That's a smart thing to do. But just always be asking yourself why, because academics doesn't always have a utilitarian value. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. This is James Childs, producer of The Dave Ramsey Show. Did you know you can now listen to The Dave Ramsey Show on Pandora and Spotify? For all the ways to watch and listen, check out our show page at DaveRamsey.com.