The Ramsey Show - App - What Does It Mean To Be “Broke”? (Hour 2)

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, number one best-selling author, Jade Warshaw. Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Craig is with us in Minneapolis. Hi, Craig. How are you?

Great. How are you? Better. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? So to start off with, we have no debt outside of what we owe on the home. But my question is, is investing money into solar panels to save money on utilities better or worse than investing in the market. So after the tax credit that you'd get the 30% that just comes right off, you know, I'd get it back on next year's taxes that equates to about a 7.8% return on what I would save. So obviously I don't have to pay tax on money that I saved, but if I invested it, I ended up having to pay tax eventually on money that's invested.

Man, you really want some solar panels, don't you? No. You got the bug. You got the salesman's pitch down, man. So what you're saying is actually not true, because if you put it into a Roth, there's no taxes on it, and a tax rebate is just a cost savings. It's not a return on investment.

Right. I'm not factoring in the tax rebate on anything as far as... You said a 7% rate of return was the tax credit. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. So, like, the system is like 57. I'd get the 17 or whatever back on the tax credit. So I'm looking at it. That tax credit is just a cost savings, that's all it is.

It's not a return on investment. And I'm not factoring that into any of my figures. Okay, what was your 7.6%? Me eventually putting in $40,000 and saving about $3,400 a year. Oh, okay. All right. So that's your 7%. Okay, that is an actual return.

Okay. All right. So if you invest $40,000, you have a 10-year break-even. About, yeah. Yeah, that's because you're not in the solar panel zone in Minneapolis. You ought to have about a five-year break-even on solar panels for them to make sense. And the reason is the technology is moving so quickly. The solar panels today are excellent compared to five years ago,

and the solar panels five years from now will be excellent compared to that junk you're getting ready to buy. So you need to break even on it really quick. It's like buying a computer. Think about a five-year-old computer. It's a joke. It's a doorstop. And so nothing as clunky as old solar panels.

But I'm a believer in solar but solar the numbers we've run on it you need to try to break even on it net net net cost uh not the 57 but the 40 i'll go with your tax credit being a cost savings so we're running the numbers on 40 but if you're only making 3400 on 40 you got a 10-year break even 11 12-year break even um that's not good enough you need to make your money back faster than that on that kind of thing only making 3,400 on 40, you got a 10-year break even, 11, 12-year break even. That's not good enough. You need to make your money back faster than that on that kind of thing. So I endorse solar companies in some of the markets that we're in, some of the talk radio stations and so forth, but they're running five, maybe seven-year break evens, but not

10, 12. So, and by the way, 7% rate of return on technology that's deteriorating daily is not a great rate of return so seven percent rate of return on a high yield savings account would be great but it's not great on technology so um that's going down so these guys and you've obviously run into a world-class salesman because you're regurgitating his stuff really well. No, I personally would not do that. I just want to make sure. Because your break-even is too long.

I just want to make sure he wasn't thinking about this as an alternative to. He was, and that's the other problem. It's not even on the same spectrum of investing. Just do your investing and then say, am I going to buy something else that gives me a break-even? Okay. Am I going to buy, I don't know, a car that saves me on gas mileage? There are two separate discussions. Okay.

If I got a gas guzzler and I'm going to save X number of dollars on my car by buying it, but it's a little bit more expensive. What's the break-even on your gas mileage savings? But that has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to invest yeah you don't get to not do a roth because you bought a car that doesn't eat gas that's right or you put solar panels up that don't need electricity but what that tells us is he can't afford to do this because he's considering doing one over the other that's that's what i'm getting to i got my my magnifying glass out. Good, good, good job there, investigative. I like it.

Cody's in Orlando. Hey, Cody, what's up? Hey, Dave. So I am in over my head in a situation with a car that I financed. I took the car over, and now I'm in a position where my mechanic told me that the motors are in recall. It's destined to blow up at any point. Of course it is. And I owe $14,000 on this car.

And there is about a two-year waiting list for a new motor due to the recall on all of them. What vehicle is it? What is it? It's a 2018 Hyundai Sonata. And Sonata's all the engines are blowing? It's burning oil, causing the engines to blow up. It's internally burning oil. And it's a recall. This is not just you. It is, but it is not covered. I'm not under warranty due to the mileage on the car. And so the car is at almost 160,000 miles. I took it over in a bad situation going through a divorce.

Didn't want the credit to get ruined. Took over the car. Okay, so what do you owe on it? I owe $14,000. And what can you sell this piece of crap for? Trade-in, probably $2,000. And I don't have anything in savings but i have another car my mom just passed away and i inherited her car no payment paid off about

three thousand trade-in it's a little older it's a 2012 okay with about 80 000 miles on it all right what do you make about fifty four thousand a year okay all right so and so i don't know if you uh if you trade in or whatever you got three thousand you need eleven thousand dollars right yes so where are you gonna get eleven thousand bucks you need eleven thousand dollars where you're gonna get it yeah i don't have it i know where you're gonna get it i would have to work and save it. I know. Where are you going to get it? I would have to work and save it. That's right. Like a lot of work, more than you're doing now. Yes.

Like extra jobs. Yeah. Okay. Like you can make, you know, $1,500, $2,000 a month delivering pizza five nights a week. Okay. And you're doing that in your mom's old car. Or you could run this Sonata all the way into the ground until it blows. I don't care because it's not going to be you might as well get something

out of it and um just run the crap out of it and you know door dash and pizza and anything else what do you do for a living right now i'm a i'm a cook at longhorned okay all right so anything you could do to get more and more hours at the best possible pay doing anything, I want you working like a maniac and, you know, like have like a, I don't know, five, six month plan to be done with it. Five months would be $2,000 a month, right? Yes, sir. Find $2,000 a month for five months and then get rid of this piece of crap.

And then you go, okay, that one's in my rear view mirror. No pun intended. I think he thought there was a oh there's not a hack yeah there was a hack there's not a hack gotta work your way out it's unfortunately it is it's called work lots of work yeah it's a hack magic trick work all the time it's a hack. This is The Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Ramsey Radio to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Ramsey Radio. Thanks for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Jade Warshaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Today's question of the day comes from Lauren in Missouri. Yeah, she says, I listen daily and hear the phrase, don't listen to broke people quite often. What is the Ramsey definition of broke? So we know who in our circles not to listen

to. I love this question. Well, broke people, for me, a broke person is somebody who is not financially responsible. And you see that as the fruit in their lives, right? They may have cars in their driveway. They may have the house that's next to yours and they're your neighbor, but you get the sense that they're not managing their money properly. And sometimes I will say, Dave, it's hard to know because unless you know this person, you know, on that financial level, you may not know how they handle their money. But if you see them pull out a credit card when it's time to pay for dinner, if you see that their houses, if you have an idea of where they work and what they earn and you're taking a look at their houses and their cars, there's certain little indicators that you're going, I wonder what type of, I wonder how they're managing their

money. Now on a personal level, when I think about broke, I think about paycheck to paycheck. And it's that person where your money is coming in and it's going out. You don't know what you're spending it on. You're not on a budget. And at the end of the day, because of that, you're not able to do the things that cause you to be a financially responsible person. You're not savings. You don't have savings. You're not investing for retirement.

You are carrying debt. You're still getting into debt, right? All of those things that we teach you to do, you're not setting your family up and your children up long-term for college and things like that. So that's kind of what I would place it in as far as what I would consider a person being broke or trying to gauge if a person is somebody that you don't want to take advice from? Wealth is not income. Wealth is not appearance. So if you're bling bling, you got a purse that costs more than most people's kids. You are driving cars that don't fit the neighborhood, meaning they're too nice.

You know, you've got two $60,000 cars sitting in front of a $400,000 house. You're broke. You know, and if all your vacations are so nice they're on your Facebook page, you know, you're living, you're trying to put on the dog as we say in tennessee you're trying to look like you're something you're not that is not the definition of wealth tom stanley who wrote the book millionaire next door before he passed away he wrote another book called stop acting rich broke people act rich and aren't yeah they're trying too hard um i got i hesitate to do this because i got a sweet young man sitting here in the lobby with a great cowboy hat on but in texas

they say big hat no cattle that's broke okay a lot of talk no money a lot of a lot of putting on the airs no money so wealth by definition is net worth what you own minus what you owe is your net worth and so if you make two million dollars a year and you have nothing in net worth you're broke you spend all of it that's what it amounts to and so it's not income and it's not what people, it's not stuff that you show on Instagram. And here's the thing. Most people that aren't broke don't give a crap what you think. Broke people care deeply about what you think.

And so that comes into it because that's why broke people are always giving you advice because they're afraid that you're going to outpace them because you're doing smart things. That's a big indicator right there. The people who are constantly yapping. They got a lot of opinions about other people's stuff and they got no stuff. That's a big indicator. Yeah. And so, you know, your typical millionaire, we interview them on the millionaire, baby steps millionaires.

What's the most expensive pair of blue jeans you ever bought? 50 bucks, 100 bucks. And, you know, nobody, nobody excited about that in the blue jean world. I don't know. That's big blue jeans money. Can I challenge the blue jeans? Okay. I don't know. I'm just saying, I'm not I challenge the blue jeans? Okay. I don't know.

I'm not saying that's an indication of broke. Move on, Dave. Move on from me. I'm just saying the typical millionaire, when we interview them, and then we say, what did your wife spend? Maybe $100. Okay. But still, they're not majoring in appearances, and broke people generally major in appearances.

They try to look like they are something they aren't. And then they have opinions about your money that are unsolicited. You didn't even ask, but they got a lot to say about it. And it's sometimes in your family. And here's the other thing. Here's what broke people are. Most people, that's broke people. 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

That's eight out of 10 houses on your street are spending everything they make to stay afloat. Wow. So what's a broke person? Most people. That's broke people. Most people. When you pull up a stoplight and five nice cars sitting around you, you're looking at five car payments. You're not looking at a millionaire that rolled up there you know he's sitting in a

$56,000 pickup truck yeah with a dadgum $854 payment on it but by god i got me a truck you know bro work hard i deserve what you deserve what a payment a payment give me a break dude seriously and so that's that's you know our so our definition of broke people would be of wealthy people would be net worth and you don't get net worth by only earning an income and you don't typically get net worth by giving a rip what other people think and so putting on putting your vacations on facebook putting your purse, your bling, your, I don't know, whatever it is, whatever it is that you think other people might think and be impressed with you. Yeah.

Your car, for sure, your stupid car. This is the country where cars, United States of America, cars are a status symbol. 100%. When I walk through my neighborhood i when i see cars i just see the payment amount that's all i see have you seen the thing that the guy did it's old but you are your car and he goes like okay this person is a subaru and this person is a oh it's hilarious because you're like making a statement about who you are i mean that is true so i'm not sure what i am i'm an old corvette i guess but there you go

but uh but the uh or i might be a raptor but uh somewhere in there but because that's two of my cars but anyway uh so yeah but it's yeah the cars cars are you used to be a jaguar i used to be a jaguar i'm not going to do it. That's it. Is that like a broke cougar? Is that what a Jaguar is? I think so. A male broke cougar is a Jaguar.

Listen, when I go by apartment complexes and I see, you know. Yeah, they're sitting in a stinking apartment complex and there's a $40,000 car sitting out there. I'm like, this doesn't make sense. That is definitely broke people. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. 100% that's broke people. Okay. So okay so yeah that's what you're talking about and i can't tell if this question is a little bit facetious or not but we're giving you a serious answer anyway um so yeah so the answer is don't listen to most people yeah because most people are most people don't

know and don't listen to people who are putting on images of wealth because they probably don't have any. And really, you get to know someone well enough, you actually know what their net worth is. You go, this guy's 35 years old. He's got a $2 million net worth. Okay, that's a guy you can listen to. Yeah. And when you line that up, that person is not spending the way you think that a, quote,

rich person should spend.'re just not they don't there's a reality to it where it's like hey this money is in investments you're just living a normal life yep yep you know very weird that's okay it's an interesting discussion though yeah if broke people are making fun of your financial plan you are on track that's one of the things we always say is a great joke line yeah and it's like if fat people are making fun of your financial plan you are on track that's one of the things we always say is a great joke line yeah and it's like if fat people are making fun of your diet then you're right on track you know it's the same deal right and uh so if you've been divorced 62 times i hope this next marriage works for you but i don't want to read your book on marriage um you ain't got this figured out bubba and so that that's the deal and that's that's what we're looking at it's a proof text in

the marketplace as in business we would call it best practices right i want to follow someone that has a series of habits that has caused them to win in this particular area of my life i'm concerned about so if you want to if you want to be married and have a great marriage find somebody been married 67 years and find out why she didn't kill him it's a good thing man you want to be married and have a great marriage, find somebody who's been married 67 years and find out why she didn't kill him. It's a good thing, man. You need to know these things. It's smart. It's smart. This is The Ramsey Show.

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You should have FOMO. You should go get this done. Download EveryDollar for free in the App Store or Google Play today, and you and your spouse can sit down put each of it on your phone and boom we're off to the races we're going to make this behave mike's in chicago hey mike what's up not much sir not much how can we help okay so years ago my mother-in-law was was living with me and my wife. We bought the family house that she was living in. At that time, she only and my wife bought the house. 50% went to the sister-in-law, my father-in-law's sister.

And her mom was like, hey, can I live with you guys? If that's okay. I said, sure, fine. After a couple years later, she and me went for a car ride, and I asked her, you know, I was just curious. I said, like, Mom, how much, do you have, like, retirement and stuff like that? And she's like, no, I really don't. And she's like, I only have maybe, like, $80,000.

And I was like, wait a second. And I was like, you're 72 years old. You only have $80,000 with something majorly like happened. And she said, well, I figured you guys would help me out. And I was like, what? And she's like, well, I figured all, if all the money goes gone, I figured you and my daughter would help me out

and after that conversation I talked to my wife about it and my wife was appalled to it and then her mom moved out

and she's living on her own house because it was putting string on to my marriage. Why was she living with you in the first place? Because my wife felt kind of, well, when we bought the house, 50% of that house, so the house was worth $150,000. Do you own the whole thing now yes i do sir i couldn't i couldn't understand okay okay so that part so now mom has moved on and what's your question how do i bring up like she's already like that's what i'm saying like if she has only

80 000 hours to like live off of and that was like three years ago. So she's 75 now? Yeah, she's up there. She's 75. Does she have Social Security coming in? She lives on that? Yes. Okay. So she's probably not using the AD except when there's an emergency.

Right? I mean, yeah. We don't know. We don't know. We're't know she's not working because i yeah she's not working i didn't bring it up again because my wife's like that's not your business but at the same time like if mom's living under my house i want to know she's not how much yeah she's not yeah she's not now okay but at the same time if something did go wrong let's say she's not now. Okay. But at the same time, if something did go wrong, let's say she's out of money, let's say... So you feel like she's not just using Social Security to survive. She's pulling actively off of that nest egg, and you're worried that that's going to run out.

That's going to run out, and then I'll be the escape goal. Me and my wife will be the escape goal. And my wife does have another sister. What's your household income? I make over $95,000. What does your wife make? My wife makes over maybe let's say $30,000. Okay, so you've got $120,000 household income in Chicago, Illinois,

and we just don't know about mom. So here's the thing um you can decide to do one of two things you can just lay this down and not worry about it which is probably what you need to do okay you're not obligated morally or ethically to step in and make her life perfect if she has not managed her life well regardless of what her expectations are and your wife has been trained by this woman that she's supposed to take care of her mother and her mother has told everybody you all are all going to take care of me and there may be a little bit of a surprise when you stand up and say no we're not so that's one possibility and you and your wife need to get on the same page and say, okay, when mom comes begging, we're not going to be her backstop.

Okay, that's one option. And you've got to decide if you're going to do that, you've got to decide that as a unified front, the two of you, the two of you. Okay. The other option is to go and completely invade her life because if you're expected to take care of her if she fails then you have the right to keep her from failing i agree if she if your wife and her mother are expecting you to take care of this woman then you should go over there and sit down and open up all of her books and put that one lady on a freaking budget and be in control and be looking over her shoulder otherwise i'm not your backstop

i'm not going to be responsible for you unless I get full say. Yeah, because is she healthy? I mean, she's healthy. My point is if the time comes. She could make it a decade. I mean, she could. Yeah. Right, but if the time comes where she needs home health care or she needs, do you know what I'm saying?

That is you on the hook for that. No, it's not. So for that reason. Not him. But if you go option two. Yeah, two you gotta go over there you gotta go over there and put her on a budget where she lives on social security and she takes her hands off the 80 and you put it in an account where she can't touch it without your help you have to take over her if you're responsible for her finances you should take over her finances otherwise i'm not going to be responsible for

i'm not going to allow you to drive your car in the ditch and then bitch because you don't have a car that's not an option i'm with it yeah so the problem is is that your mother-in-law and your wife are both passive-aggressive and you're getting ready to get aggressive aggressive and this is going to stink up the whole thing so but you know there's not you guys have been trying to walk down the middle of it it's none of your business but we have to take care of her no it is by god my business if i have to take care of her that makes it my business that's how that works so but i'm not gonna you know i you can't have it both ways you can't go well you have to take care of her but she's allowed to do whatever she wants. No, it's not okay.

Because that's his fear, and it's a valid fear. The hard part about that, and what you're saying is exactly right. The hard part about it, though, is if the two option doesn't help, and the parent-in-law says, I'm not giving you access. I'm a grown person. Then I'm not giving you help. Then'm a grown person. You know, da-da-da-da-da. Then I'm not giving you help. Then you have to take your hands off of it. But then the time will inevitably come

as the child where you will see, Dad, they need my help. But you've already chosen to do this. So either way, the sucky part of this and the teaching part of this is do not put your children in this situation. Amen.

Because at the end of the day they're screwed no you're you're danged if you do danged if you don't either way because it is hard to sit back and watch somebody struggle even though you tried to help do you see what i'm saying so there's no and then it sucks when you have to financially help somebody who should have helped themselves so there's no good side of it just do right and handle your money the way we're teaching and don't wait until— Don't do this to your kids. Yeah.

For real. That's the point. I like that point. This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Warshaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Kurt is in Philadelphia. Hi, Kurt. How are you?

I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I'm wondering if you have advice for me. I have about $7.8 million in financial assets, with the bulk of it $6 million in tax-referred IRAs, 401Ks, and 403Bs. I'm a 66-year-old guy, and I'm taking Social Security amounts to about $3,600 a month, and I have a pension of about $1,000 a month. My problem, and I think you can see it, is that in seven years, I'm going to go off a cliff with required minimum distributions on my tax-deferred accounts.

Yep. And I can't solve this. This is going to boost me into the highest tax bracket, I think, and trigger IRMA and other kind of penalties. Is there any answer for me? God, I hate it when you've got $7 million worth of money. Way to go, man. You did great. I just wish it wasn't all in tax deferred.

Oh, my gosh. I didn't realize that until too late. Yeah. Okay, so is it all 401K, or what is most of it is? It's IRAs. The bulk of it is in 401K and 403B, but some of it's in IRAs. Did you say some of it was taxed was like a 457 just deferred income?

Yes, yes, yes. 457B. That's what it is. How much of it is that? Geez, you would ask me that. I think it's about half of it. Half of the $6 million is in that. Wow.

I'm trying to think through the math. So the extreme answer that is not the answer, but this is helping me run the math while I'm live here on the air with you, is if you just moved it all to Roth, you would pay taxes on all of it now in one fell swoop if you did i'm not suggesting that i'm just trying to work that through in my head because that's basically going to cost you about 30 cents on the dollar and so that's going to cost you like $2, $2.5 million. Yikes. And that leaves you $5 million, 100% tax-free, and 100% tax-free growth from now on. And when you leave that money in the estate,

there won't be any tax to your heirs because it's in a Roth. Inherited traditional becomes taxable, of course, to the next generation because you hadn't yet paid taxes on it. And of course, Roth has no RMD, right? So that's the extreme.

That makes me want to shoot somebody when I think about two and a half million dollars going to stupid government. So that's not my answer, but I'm trying to think through. That solves all of the problems, except the $2.5 million problem, right? Yeah, yeah. So is there some iteration off of that where we get enough of it out of,

and we take enough pain that we get the RMDs down? Or do we want to just bite the bullet and be done and rip the Band-Aid? Oh, that's so harsh. That's the cliff. And that's the problem I'm facing. I can't do enough over the next seven years to really make a dent. Oh, you can do it all. You can roll it all to a Roth.

Yes, unless I do it all at once. Well, you can do it all. You could roll it all to a Roth. Yes, unless I do it all at once. Well, you can do half of it. You can do enough. You're just going to pay taxes on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No penalties, just taxes. Of course, if you're trying to manage tax brackets, like you said, you move 100, you start bumping brackets.

You move 200, you're in another bracket, you know, and so you're starting to get into bracket creep. And that's why it's pretty much going to be 30% because that's what you're saying. You can't do enough at a low tax bracket to get to do any good. No, you can't. That's the other one end of the spectrum is you get slaughtered. The other end of the spectrum is you bleed to death a drop at a time oh gosh you know and that that's that's god that is an interesting i'm not disagreeing with your guy you are heading for a cliff you can stop it but the the the antidote is very painful oh i don't know what to do if he did half and took you know it's still gonna still

gonna have rmds that are gonna be all right so you got three and a half million the rmds that start at 72 and a half uh that's yeah so here's the formula you could run here's another formula that's not a full full bleed out okay um you could run and say how much what's the formula you could run. Here's another formula that's not a full bleed out, okay? You could run and say, what's the most I can leave in, and the RMD doesn't trigger IRMA, and the RMD doesn't put me in the top tax bracket, okay? So what's the most I can leave in? And then take the hit on the rest of it and go ahead and move it to Roth. That's somewhat of a middle ground.

There's nothing in this equation that's not painful, though. There's pain somewhere in this equation. That's what I was afraid of. I thought maybe there was a magic bullet somewhere. If there is, I don't know it. I have systematically, I'm 63, and i've systematically moved 100 of my stuff to roth over the past decade for that reason because i knew i was going to have rmd coming down my throat and i knew from an estate planning standpoint i'm likely to never touch any of it

you probably will never touch the mass vast majority of this it's going to your heirs and so you've got another problem if you go the rmd route is your heirs are going to get this tax problem shoot because the inherited iras and under the new stinking biden rules they're going to make them take that money in uh like five years or it's either five or ten years they got to pull it all yeah you can't leave it it's worse than rmds inherited iras have required distributions on them now wow that's more that they're more than the rmds a lot more um the secure act that's what that biden crap was called and so because they what happened was people were rolling it to the to the inherited iras and never touching it. And so the government was never getting their money.

And so they figured out they want their money out of there. And so they're requiring these inherited IRAs to be liquidated. I believe it's 10 years. 10 years. I believe it might have moved it even to seven, but it's really fast. Kurt, I don't know. I don't have good advice for you on the air live right this second. I will think about it.

Is there a way I can circle back? The knowledge that I have – yeah, you're welcome to call back in. We'll put you back on. We'll do this again. But the knowledge that I have is might not have the bullet if there is – doesn't have the bullet if there is a silver bullet out there. And I'm kind of thinking now the more I sit in this, if I'm in your shoes, I might just,

and I'm thinking more about your kids, I might just move it all. I might watch the election and see what happens with tax rates after the election, because Trump had lower tax rates in than Biden does on people like you and me, because we're evil and we must be punished. We've built wealth. And you're feeling that right now. This is what tax policy does to people right here.

Work your whole freaking life, and then you get screwed by the government again so um as soon as i can anticipate the lowest possible tax bracket for this money i might move it all and then i'm done with it i got rid of irma i got rid of rmds i got rid of inheritance problem but i also got rid of two million bucks yeah you're 66, and you know what's going to happen to that 5 million, is that when you are 73, it's going to be 10 million. And when you're 81, it's going to be 20 million. And if you're healthy, that's a high probability actuarially speaking and so 20 million dollars is going to be taxable instead of 7.6 that's another reason i might go ahead and do it so do it now yeah i i'm not advising you to do that but at this moment that's starting to feel

better than the other crap that we're all sitting here talking about none of this feels good it's a shame that a man works his whole life and starts from nothing and ends up with 7.6 million dollars by saving and he's 66 years old and he has to sit and decide which way the government's going to screw him that's a shame you people that vote wrong you should be ashamed of yourself. This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you.