The Ramsey Show - App - What You’re Doing Is Financial Suicide (Hour 1)

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

Dave Ramsey & Ken Coleman discuss: How to know when you're buying (or building) too much house, Knowing when it's time to upgrade from the beater car, The morals and ethics of working somewhere that sells debt products.   Want a plan for your money? Find out where to start: https://bit.ly/3nInETX Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3GxiXm6

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. We help people build wealth, do work that they actually love, and create real, amazing relationships. This is a show about your life. We're glad you're here. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality of The Ken Coleman Show, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. If you haven't heard The Ken Coleman Show, it's all about your work and your career and getting into work you love and actually making money you do it's all about your work and your career and uh getting into work you love and actually making money you do it and all that kind of stuff so he's here to help me

today and we're going to talk to you about your life and your money the phone number is 888-825-5225 we'll start with ben in tampa florida hey ben how are you hey i'm doing great how are you better than i deserve what's up well first of all thanks for taking my call um so we have a mortgage new construction house related question so we sold our house in december of 21 and we made a good amount of money on it and we went under contract for a new build literally within a couple weeks in December as well. Obviously, we did the whole debt to income ratio. We wanted to be in that 35, 36% to be comfortable with this new mortgage. And now that the, uh, the rates have obviously almost doubled since December 21, you know, we couldn't foresee that, but I would just like to know what my options are. And if you have any details on what I think

you're going to say, what one option is. But, again, we're just pretty nervous about being up to probably 50% death income with the new mortgage potentially on the horizon with taxes and also HOAs. Yeah. Well, Ben, you're apparently fairly new to our material. We appreciate you joining us. We teach people to never do anything over 25% of your take-home pay, not 36%. 36% is max. You bought the most that they would possibly qualify you for. And then you probably don't even qualify now they don't you're not qualified for you can't qualify for a mortgage of 50 of your income well so yeah we're pretty close i would say we're about 47 percent right now yeah um that's suicide it's absolute suicide yeah what you did was dumb to start with it's gone from dumb over into crazy

yeah but let me tell you let me tell you why i say that and then you understand why i'm being so dramatic okay here's Here's the thing. That's okay. There's two elements that the size of your mortgage affect. Number one, the first thing it affects is when you have much more than 25% of your household take-home pay going into your mortgage, you don't have any wiggle room left in your budget, and it tends to drive people into debt. They don't save to buy their next car. They go into debt to buy their next car. They don't save for vacation, they go into debt to

go on vacation. They don't save for Christmas, they go into debt for Christmas. All because they're what we call house poor and they can't win. At 50% of your take-home pay, it's virtually impossible to operate the household without going deeply into debt on the other items. There's just no room in your budget. I've been doing budgets for 35 years with individuals, okay? When 50% of your income goes out to your house payment, that's called house poor. You've got nothing left. You are stressed looking for a place to happen.

You are going to learn to hate this house and your spouse by the time you get out of this y'all are going to be fighting about money all the time it's going to be stress dripping off the place all that the second problem is this further out there than the short-term problems that i just outlined is the number no there's two main things that happens to people that become millionaires they put money into their 401k and their Roth IRA on a steady diet, and they pay off their home. You can do neither when you're at 50%. So is this contract for this build contingent upon financing? It is.

Good, good. You're going to be moving somewhere else young man if you're smart you do whatever you want to do but if you call me up and you're my best friend my little brother and my son it's exactly what i would tell you because it's and it's going to break your heart it's going to break your wife's heart y'all are going to be it's going to break the builder's heart it's going to break everybody's everybody's little heart's going to be broken let me tell you what you choose your pain you're either going to choose the builder's heart. It's going to break everybody's little heart. It's going to be broken. Let me tell you what. You choose your pain. You're either going to choose the pain in the short term right now to get out of this mess and go get something you can afford,

or you're going to choose the pain long term of you're going to walk with a financial limp for the next decade with this. So you don't see any let it all calm down and think about refinancing just bite the bullet for the next year or two and refinance maybe? Well, I mean, yeah, if the rate came back down and you could refinance or if you have the potential to double your income in the next three years where you would get to 25% of your take-home pay, you know. You can do it for a period of time time but the problem is you're stressing the machine you're like running you got your foot on the accelerator and you're running this car at like

6 000 r's 7 000 r's you're up in the red on the r's you follow me and you can you can run down the street that way i mean you run 10 miles that way but you try to run 100 miles with that thing you're gonna blow that engine and that's what we're talking about here you're redlining hey ben it sounds to me like everything dave has laid out you you either expect him to say or you agree with it but you're feeling some pressure from somewhere else maybe someone else is that true or false um i would say it's partly true because the decision to do this was to make our forever home we needed a bigger place to be for our teenager his friends and it gave us an opportunity to be completely debt-free except the house yeah i'm hearing that i'm hearing you completely agree with everything dave said and yet you're still hanging on. But, but, but, and Dave, I think that's the real challenge here.

There's some personal stuff going on in that whole family unit that's making him try to find a way that really isn't there. Ben, you're trying to do something good for your family, and you're going to do it in such a way that it's going to be bad for your family. And when you emotionally digest that as well as intellectually digest that, and you and your wife as two grown-ups sit and look at this and go, we're not in Congress, we have to live on less than we make. This is not a good 10-year plan. This is not a good 20-year plan. And therefore, it's not good for your teenager

because teenagers absorb stress off their parents like sponges. If your family starts tightening up and can't breathe, and then you and your wife start going at each other, which the number one cause of marital disagreement and divorce is money stress and money problems, and you're just walking straight into the bandsaw. You're walking right into the flamethrower. You are asking for it. You know, I just wouldn't advise that to anybody I loved.

I love you, man. I want you to win. I don't want you to... I'm not here to keep you from having nice things. I'm here to keep your nice things from having you. That's what we want you to do. You do whatever you want, but we called in here and we're experts on our opinion. This is the Ramsey Show.

You've got a lot on your plate. A job, your home, your marriage, and your growing family. While you're enjoying the present, you can't help but think about your future and your finances. As you explore your options, consider Christian Healthcare Ministries, or CHM, for your health care. Their generous maternity program and budget-friendly monthly programs have been a blessing to members welcoming children into their families. Visit chministries.org slash budget to see if it's right for you. Christian Healthcare Ministries is a Ramsey-trusted provider. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today.

New York City's on the line. Sarah's with us. Hi, Sarah. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? All right. So my husband and I are having a baby in September, and we're disagreeing about whether or not we should be buying a new-to-us car to prepare. We currently have a 98 Honda Accord and a 2008 Toyota RAV4. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of the baby being in the 98 with all the safety changes, you know, in the past 20-plus years. So we have no debt. We make $180,000 a year before

taxes. We have $40,000 outside of our emergency fund. My husband acknowledges that we can afford the car, but doesn't want to buy it because it's a want, not a need. It's a bad time to be buying cars and there's nothing wrong with the 98. I think we're ready for an upgrade. So what do you think? Can I, or better yet, you, tell him that it's time to crack open his wallet? Is he listening in? You are great. You're awesome. We should sell tickets.

We should sell tickets. This is great. He's outside the room, Dave. He's standing with bated breath. And he let you set all of this up just to have his head taken off. This is awesome. Yes, he did give me his arguments before I called. His financial arguments are all accurate.

But there's some things beyond the financial argument. Your argument on safety is absolute BS. It's absolutely not true. Okay? You're talking to an old man that grew up. We rode in the back window of the car. That's the truth. And when they slammed on the brakes, it threw us into the floorboard. So your baby's going to survive. Okay?

So it's going to be okay. You're going to be all right. But you can afford a car. So it is a want. And you have the money for the want. It is is not a need and there's never been a car well except for classic cars that are collectibles that is a good investment they all go down in value they're all mathematically horrible okay so it's just simply consumption but you make how much 160 000 a year 180 $180,000 before taxes.

I'm sorry, $180,000. Okay. That's after tax? Before tax. Oh, before tax. $180,000, right? Okay. Is that what you said?

Yes. All right. And you have $40,000 allocated to the car, and you don't have any debt, right? No. Okay. So if you pay cash for the car, yes you should move up in car no you should not buy a brand new car unless you have a net worth of a million dollars or more in which case if you want to buy a new car you can't hard to find one for 40 but these days but you can do that

so but yeah i think you would move up in car and uh you might move up in two cars i'm okay neither one of these cars neither one of these cars but as long as you're paying cash and the total that you're investing in them is less than half of your annual income and it would be you know you wouldn't have the cash to do more so um you know but if you moved up uh 15 000 each in two different cars you would move into substantially different vehicles um and we could just set the whole baby thing aside except that that your pregnancy is what caused the argument but you just without a baby involved you could still do this deal it's not unreasonable financially okay okay so you win the argument but for none of the reasons that you thought now sarah sarah relationally i feel like i got to speak up on behalf of your husband now when

you share this with him you got to read him so maybe the win for you relationally uh with him is that you give him your car instead of buying two cars that may be too much for him to handle i don't know dave this guy's on the other side of the wall ken is saying na na na na doesn't work to bring this up yes i'm basically going uh i'll tell you what we could just upgrade my car and i'll give you uh the one that i'm driving uh or maybe if he wants you know you know the truth is that his arguments financially are all correct. Yeah. There's almost no time you can justify moving up in car financially. It almost never makes sense financially. Oh, it breaks down all the time. It doesn't break down as much as $15,000, which we're talking about moving up on one car here, right?

You know, $15,000 in repairs, that's absolute BS. And the safety of a Honda Accord this 20 years, it's just fine. You're just fine. Just don't drive like a maniac, you know. Yeah. But, you know, it's not a James Bond movie you're in. You're just taking a kid to daycare. So, but the, you know, so, yeah.

But the truth is, it's a luxury that is not going to cripple you financially that you can afford. And I do some stuff like that. And I'm freaking Dave Ramsey, which is kind of synonymous with tightwad. So, you know, Sharon and I buy some things that we can afford. And they don't cripple us financially. They don't slow us down financially. It's a small enough number that it doesn't matter. And all of these numbers fall in that category. I'll you one your coffee maker at the lake i have no idea what

it costs nobody's business but that's a fantastic coffee maker but i gotta tell you at the lake house very fancy i have i was intimidated cars cheaper yeah oh boy see i didn't know but i'm gonna tell you we were i mean but i had some cheap cars but yeah i mean it's not a fifteen thousand dollar coffee maker but yeah it's a nice coffee maker is all, I mean, it's not a $15,000 coffee maker, but, yeah. It's a nice coffee maker is all I'm saying. And it's just, you know, it falls under the category of SWI. Sharon wants it. Ah, I like that.

That's a good category. And in this case, Sarah wants it. SWI, right? That would make great reality TV the rest of this conversation. See, we put Sarah on hold, and now she's going to go talk to the hubs who's behind the wall watching how that goes i told you so i told you so it's not going to be a great line here but the uh because you for all the reasons she wanted to do it she was wrong that's true the only reason it works is because it works and you can afford it and so if you want to buy an item that doesn't make sense financially, but you have the money. Now, here's another way to look at having the money.

I often use this on the air, and I'll use it with this case, okay? Cars are the same way. If you take that amount of money and set fire to it just to watch it burn, does it hold you back substantially financially? Does it cause you to walk with a limp financially? Does it cause you to walk with a limp financially does it cause you to be you know to be off your kilter and if the answer is no then you can afford yeah the luxury of it but oftentimes people buy something and they justify their butts off they rationalize their butts off and it's something you really that's the amount of money you can't afford to

burn up correct i mean if you make sixty thousand dollars a year and you want to go buy a forty thousand dollar car you can't afford to burn that much money. It'll burn your hair off. I mean, you can't do it. And so that's what the type of way of looking at it is. You go, does this change my life if I burn this much money? Then you go, well, then I can afford to buy the luxury. Like James, he collects $25,000 guitars, right?

And I just made that up. He just choked. He does have way too many guitars. There's a lot of guitars represented in the booth, as a matter of fact, right now. Yeah, that's true. A lot of stringed instruments are represented in the booth. Can they afford those, given that none of them make their living with those instruments? Yes, they can. Right. Because that amount of money as a luxury or in a hobby is something I care about.

Doesn't something they care about. I don't. But that's the amount. I mean, if I buy another gun, like I don't have enough, I got plenty. If I buy another one, which I'm apt to do at any moment, does it change my financial trajectory? No. And as long as that's the answer answer and if my wife buys a purse no one should spend that on a purse you're right they shouldn't but people do including her and so

yeah no one should spend that on a gun let me tell you what the let me tell you what guns cost you two purses i was getting ready to ask that you get a new gun sharon gets a couple purses that's a good deal for everybody. It's a trade-out. It's a trade-out. Same with James and his guitars, right? By the way, when Dave says he has a lot of guns, if the Tennessee National Guard had a shortage, you're on speed dial. I know.

Someday I'm going to be arrested as an insurgent. I'm not sure against what. Hey, hush. You're going to give people ideas. They've been looking for an end for you. There it is. It's easy. They've been looking for an end for you. There it is. It's easy. They've been looking for a way to get you.

But the point being, if you're spending money on something that has absolutely no benefit except it's something you want, you have lived like no one else, so now you can live and give like no one else. Same thing about giving money away. When you're being generous with the money, you should be able to give it away and it not change your life except for the huge benefit that being a generous person gives you. It's the same exact process. But if you want to give everything you own away, you've got to stop and think about that one. That needs to be God's voice

in your ear for sure, not some kind of guilt trip by a liberal. This is The ramsey show Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host today. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions, officially on the debt-free stage, is Adam and Lani? Lainey. Lainey. I knew I was going to mess that up. Lainey. Welcome, you guys. Where do you live? We live in Hudsonville, Michigan, which is just outside of Grand Rapids. Very cool. Great area. We love Grand Rapids. Been a wonderful relationship with the Ramsey team up there over the years.

All right. Well, how much debt did you two pay off? We paid off $140,771. Excellent. How long did that take? Took 30 months. Wow. And your range of income during that time? $150,000 to $170,000. Cool. What do you all do for a living? I am an engineering manager. I am a special education teacher for autism. Awesome. Very cool. What kind of debt was your $141,000?

So $11,740 was a home equity line of credit for a vehicle, for a car. And then $129,031 was our house. You paid off your house! We did. I know. We're looking at weird people! Yes, our house. You paid off your house! We did. I know. We're looking at weird people! Yes. Yes, you are. Way to go, guys!

We were hoping that you'd call us weird. Oh, it's a standard thing, man. Normal's broke. Weird people are not broke. That's good. It's weird to actually be out of debt and have some money. Way to go, you two. Excellent.

Excellent. Excellent. All right. What's this house worth? It's worth like 400 how much in your retirement accounts uh right around 450 okay bumping up next to millionaire then huh working on it all right gonna be baby steps millionaires before we know it how old are you two you can go first i'm 39 almost 40 and i'm 38 all right not even 40 and you're almost millionaires

and 100 dead free now you guys are amazing i'm so proud of you thank you way to go man it's surreal to be here way to go all right well tell us your story what in the world happened two and a half years ago set you guys on fire uh i mean we we had done some things right with money but not everything for sure and in the beginning of 2020 new year's resolution style uh done a lot of listening to you and then uh really just started talking to laney and we talked about where we wanted to go and one of the things that really unlocked things for us was uh sharing the budget and using every dollar so that there was visibility. I'm being an engineer. I keep track of things pretty closely and always had good intent of sharing that. And we'd have a monthly reminder on the calendar to sit down, but unfortunately,

it just wouldn't happen. And so every dollar just unlocked things for us so that there was instantaneous visibility and we both knew where we were at. Yeah, it was really helpful. Like Adam said, he's phenomenal with creating a budget and he's got awesome Excel spreadsheets and everything. And I look at it and I'm like, eh. And then every dollar is awesome. He gets way too much joy from this, doesn't he? He does, yes.

One of the things that got me most fired up is i had a normal armorization table of our mortgage and then every single time we paid extra just ratcheted down yeah and you could right you could see yourself just knocking out months and months and years that that is powerful that's uh uh that math blows your mind when you first see it and you go i'm gonna slide down that many months but a thousand i'm gonna find another 50 bucks so i can get to that other month you know it's just it's crazy way to go y'all way to go how's it feel to have no payments in the world weird oh it's just a such such a great feeling such a great feeling for our family uh one of the main reasons we're here is is for those two little guys over there

uh they are crazy and that's our, but it's who we are. It was funny when we were talking about coming on the show, I just kept reminding Lainey, let's just be ourselves. To be ourselves, this is who we are. We're real people that live in Michigan and just want to spread hope to other people too. I love that, and I want to stay on that theme. Lainey, you were talking about the spreadsheets make your eyes roll around your

head. And boy, do I certainly, you know, identify with that. But I think it's great for other couples that are listening in and watching to know how do you all make it work with you all being so very different? What made it work for you all coming together with very different personalities, different strengths, and so forth. Yeah. I mean, I think we were definitely each other's biggest cheerleaders, and we have great communication, which helps. You really had a 90%, and you just dialed it up to 99%, didn't you, with the every dollar budget?

Yeah, definitely. Another thing that was neat that Adam did was he took a house and he made it into all these little squares for us and so each time we made a payment to the house there it is yeah so one of the one of the house payoff graphics and so that was that was powerful for us so that and you can see that the boys helped us color it in too so they they were part of the experience we were very open with them about what we were doing and why we were doing it and uh it So they were part of the experience. We were very open with them about what we were doing and why we were doing it. And it's kind of funny. There's a funny story where it was actually the day before Cohen's birthday and Grady and I, we were going into Granville outside of Grand Rapids to pick up a last minute birthday gift for him. And we saw a really nice car because one of

the things that we paid off was actually a vehicle. And later in our journey in November of last year, we actually decided that it was a vehicle that we had had our fun with. It was a Camaro. And we decided that, reverse engineered it and said, based on car values, because car values were just crazy. It was like, you know what, We're going to let this one go. Did you actually make money on it? I did not. It was real close.

Yeah, I drove it for three years for $1,200. Yeah, that's pretty cool. But I remember Grady saying to me, I pointed out a nice car because we're automobile people. We like cars and stuff. And he was like, well, when are we going to get it? Or why did we sell our car and i was like well we put the money towards the house and then right away he asked me well how many squares was that so it was it connected and i was like well it was like 60 squares and he's

like man that's a lot of squares yeah that's good yeah i have a whole new currency in your house squares yeah that's good every time your theme song comes on, the boys are like, it's Dave's show. How did you guys get connected to us? On the radio? Yeah, just originally listening to the radio. You're on 106.9 Grand Rapids from six to nine in the evenings and just happenstance listening to that. I remember there was financial peace at our church years ago, and we knew very little about it then. Didn't participate, just heard people talk about envelopes and stuff like that. And then as it, you know, continued to be on our hearts and as we learned more about it, then we were like, well, this is the plan for us. What do you tell people the key to getting out of

debt is? I think communication and prayer, honestly prayer honestly i mean anytime something came into our house that was extra we would talk and we would pray about how we wanted to tithe first and and then we continued um how many squares is it right um yeah and then of course the boys i mean there's something in your family whether it's kids or each other or just yourself, like you deserve to live like you've never lived before. And so use that as motivation. In your case, changing your family tree. Yeah.

Well done, yeah. All right, let's bring the boys up and introduce them. What are their names and ages? This is Grady. He is 10. And this is Cohenhen and he is eight cohen and grady very cool very cool we've got a copy of baby steps millionaires for you our latest number one bestseller around here how ordinary people build extraordinary wealth how you can too

you're almost there millionaire status so you will see pictures of yourself in here at least statistically very well done and because you're exactly what this book is about. Also, Total Money Makeover for you to give away and help someone else that's inspired by your journey when they hear about you. And Financial Peace University. If you never took it, you can take it now. It's the brand new videos, the best version of Financial Peace University we've ever done. This is a one-year membership, so we'll give you that as well. Or you can give it away, whatever you want to do with it.

Thank you. We're so glad you're here. Congratulations, you guys. Proud of you want to do with it thank you we're so glad you're here congratulations you guys proud of you thanks very good stuff thanks for coming all the way to nashville to celebrate with us we love as i said we love grand rapids people in that area it's an absolutely incredible area and uh we've had a wonderful uh decades long relationship with that community. So very, very cool. All right. It's Adam and Lainey, Grady and Cohen from Hudsonville, Michigan. $141,000 paid off in 30 months. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream.

All right. You guys ready? Three, two, one. We're debt-free! Yeah! That's how it's done. You want to know what that sound was? That was the sound of a family tree changing right there.

You always wondered what it sounded like, didn't you? That's it. This is the Ramsey Show. Ken Coleman Ramsey, personality number one, bestselling author, is my co-host today. Big announcement, are you ready? Our Wealth Building Live, Building Wealth Live event tour is completely blowing up. We sold out Phoenix for September 13th. Sacramento, Minneapolis, San Antonio are all in the 90% sold out bracket.

So that means a handful of tickets are available for those cities. Do not wait. If you're sitting around thinking about joining us, don't wait. It's going to be me and Ken Coleman sitting to my right, Dr. John Deloney, George Camel, Rachel Cruz. We're going to be there talking to you guys about building wealth in this current environment.

How do you analyze what's going on in the marketplace, in the culture, in the economy, and still put yourself in a position to move forward? Again, Phoenix, September the 13th, sold out. Sacramento, November the 1st. Minneapolis, November the 10th. San Antonio, November the 15th. sold out. Sacramento, November the 1st. Minneapolis, November the 10th. San Antonio, November the 15th. Passes start at $25. You can get a four-pack starting at $60.

Go to ramseysolutions.com slash events. Get your seats. These are going to be gone in just a matter of days or maybe a week or two, something like that. Oh, and we're going to help you out. We have not been able to secure any more venues in any of the other cities but we did secure september the 12th in phoenix so we are opening up a new night in phoenix if you missed out on the first night september the 12th added now that is a monday and we would love to have you so brand new it is obviously not sold out it goes on

sale today so uh that's pretty cool phoenix is on fire for ramsey stuff yeah two nights in a row we love that market uh so listen bring friends family if you can't get on the 13th we got another night and you might like it so much on monday night you just you know i mean you're just going to come back so usually i'm anticipating it's going to be so great i'm going to come to no monday night's the new one no Oh, I know. Tuesday's sold out. I'm being silly. You can't get in Tuesday.

I know. Tuesday's gone. But if you already bought your Tuesday ticket. Don't create a security problem, Coleman. Sorry, folks. He doesn't like the off-script jokes. It doesn't work. It just doesn't work.

Well, if they cause our security guys problems, no. Yeah, that is true. It's going to be fun, though. You know, these events have all been electric. A lot of people coming early. It's amazing. Every event early every event we've been to we're doing book signings we're taking pictures we're hanging out with you guys and hey we're so excited just to be doing these things yeah we're just happy to be somewhere besides nashville uh we love nashville too but oh my gosh being able to travel on those events in your city it's our favorite thing to do is personalities so again sacramento minneapolis san antonio just a handful of tickets left phoenix september 13th sold out

today adding a new one this one probably won't last a month uh so september 12th you know take a cue from the fact the other one is gone and get your tickets phoenix you can you can now get in on that brand new date at ramsey solutions.com Our question of the day comes from Blinds.com. Find out for yourself why Blinds.com is the number one online retailer. Custom window coverings with free samples, free shipping, and new promos all the time. To get the best deal on the promo, always use the magic word. It is magic. Ramsey.

We love Blinds.com. They love us. We love their customers. They're you. This is The Ramsey Show. We love Blinds.com. They love us. We love their customers. They're you. This is The Ramsey Show. All right, Ken, what do we got? Today's question is from Scott in Michigan. I have now been leading FPU for several years,

so I'm well-versed on what the Ramsey plan is for a ton of life situations. I now face a dilemma in my attempt to further my career. I have a lot of big banks, mortgage companies, and other such financial institutions at which I could work. I'm wondering, is there a moral or ethical issue with going to work for one of these institutions since they make their money by selling debt? I'm in IT, so I wouldn't have any direct involvement in the business side, but it still seems like it would be a conflict of principle. What are your thoughts? Well, Scott, in some ways you answer your own question here because while it is in fact a dilemma because of what you believe,

how you live your life, and how you're teaching others the Ramsey way, this is a dilemma. But it is not a moral ethical issue. Period. End of sentence. You're not breaking the law. You are not doing anything that would even be considered a gray area from an ethical standpoint. However, this is a principal issue. And so you've got principal on one side, and you've got a legitimate way to work. You're in IT, and you can make really good money and do very well there. But this is not an ethical issue. It is a principal issue, and that's a difference. So you've got to be able to live with you. Now's the way let me give you an example what i do on that okay i endorse community banks sure and credit unions in a lot of cities right a lot of local radio stations sell ads with my voice that i endorse and i do believe in them yeah in community banks and churchill mortgage a mortgage churchill

mortgage and mike hardwick owns church Churchill is one of my best friends. Yep. And so, now, what's the difference? I wouldn't endorse Bank of America for any amount of money. I would feel dirty. So, the way I answer the question is, would I send someone there that I care about? Because I'm getting ready to send my listeners there, you guys out there. And if I would not send someone I care about there, then I don't need to send anybody there that's hypocritical would i do it work do you feel dirty when you get home because of the

way that business is conducted who they are how they do business the type of products they put out the door so there's various kinds of debt products there's various kinds of banks uh there are banks like bank of america where you're a number all they see you as an opportunity to loan you money so fi all their all their soft peddling uh nurturing bull crap at marketing is all about just trying to make you feel better about them trying to sell you debt yeah and so i couldn't work for them. I certainly wouldn't endorse them, obviously. You know, JPMorgan Chase. I'm not endorsing them.

So I don't endorse any big banks, but I do endorse small banks, and I tell people not to borrow money. Well, you have a checking account there. You have some other things there. You could work in the mortgage business. We tell people not to take out a mortgage unless it's more than a 15-year, and if you've got the money to pay cash, pay cash. And Churchill Mortgage goes along with that, so we endorse Churchill Mortgage, right, and have for 25 years.

So I think you're fine. What it amounts to is, are you being hypocritical? Yes. And the way you answer that is, would I send my best friend there? I really like that. That's the slimeball test. Yeah. If they're not a slimeball, then there's no issue.

You're fine. Go do good IT work. I'm not working for a payday lender. They're taking advantage of the poor, period. And they're not going to be any on this show, ever, as long as I'm breathing, and that kind of thing. You're right. It's morals, ethics, and hypocrisy, and it is kind of a gradient,

all the way to principles. It is kind of a gradient there. If you work at Pizza Hut and they take Visa, that doesn't mean that you're for credit cards. And you're waiting tables. Are you violating your financial peace when you raised your right hand and said, I promise to never do debt and never do credit cards as long as I shall live, are you violating your financial peace uh when you raised your right hand said i promised to

never do debt and never do credit cards as long as i shall live or whatever the boy scouts honor thing is right that's right and so you know that kind of thing hold three fingers together put them up in the air all that kind of stuff right so but i don't borrow money and so and i teach people this stuff so if i took credit cards that would be super bad right that would be inconsistent i remember i went to when i first started this i went to a get out of debt seminar this guy had So if I took credit cards, that would be super bad, right? That would be inconsistent. I remember when I first started this, I went to a get-out-of-debt seminar this guy had, and he sold a ton of books on credit cards at the back table during the break. Yeah.

And I'm like, this is so inconsistent. That's correct. But we take debit cards here, and we tell you not to use your credit card. You know, it's hypocritical. We do not need your money if you're borrowing money to buy our stuff do not borrow money to buy our stuff that's ridiculous it's you know the stuff's at the library and you can listen on for free on youtube and on this show on your local radio station so don't go borrow money to do it if you want to enhance the process and you have the money by buying a book or going to financial

peace university or using ken's assessment or reading one of his books to enhance the process and you have the money by buying a book or going to Financial Peace University or using Ken's assessment or reading one of his books to enhance the process to get a thing. But you don't need to go in debt to get a job. No, not at all. So this comes down to, again, what do I believe is right for me versus right and wrong? Yeah. If I'm hardcore Financial Peace university and i own a restaurant is it bad for me to take credit cards i don't think so no not at all but if you're if you're me and you make your living doing this that because i tell people and then if i did that

would be that would be backward you know so um it's now if you believe you're bringing harm to someone and you're doing that intentionally you will in any business or in any position in any business, if you believe you're participating in that company doing bad things or something that's bad for people, then you're going to have a hard time succeeding at that. Because your brain is called cognitive dissonance. Your brain works against itself. So don't try to do that.

I don't care how much money you make. Doing scummy things doesn't pay off psychologically in the long run. That's what try to do that. I don't care how much money you make, doing scummy things doesn't pay off psychologically in the long run. That's what it comes down to. It's a great question. What a great heart he's got. Good stuff. Ken Coleman, thanks for joining me this hour. Good show. That puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the books. Dave here. You can find all of our shows with the Ramsey Network app on your smartphone. It's the only place to listen to the entire back catalog of episodes. Download the Ramsey Network app in your favorite app store today.