The Ramsey Show - App - What's the Difference Between Enabling and Helping Someone? (Hour 2)

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

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Hey guys, this is James Childs, producer of The Dave Ramsey Show. Dave and the team are out spending time with their families for New Year's, but we'll be back soon to help you take control of your life and your money in 2021. In the meantime, we've put together some of the best clips from the show for you to enjoy. This is the best of The Dave Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. My co-host today on The Dave Ramsey Show, Ken Coleman.

Ramsey personality joins us. And, of course, number one best-selling author, and he's the host of The Ken Coleman Show, heard on 50-plus radio stations, Sirius XM, podcast, YouTube, everything else all over America. So be sure you check him out. Open phones here. We're talking about your life and your money and your careers and your jobs.

That's what Ken speaks about as well as everything else here. So we're just here to help you with everything. Jump in, 888-825-5225. Tony starts off this hour in North Carolina. Hi, Tony. Welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. Thank you so much. And appreciate you guys being there

I just got back from vacation and listened to your Total Money Makeover twice and many of the podcasts I quit watching the news and just listened to your podcast now well it's a whole lot better than the news too well everything is

that's true and I'm planning on signing up for Finance Peace University, actually, this afternoon. I just started because I just really got into this. I started Baby Step 2. My wife is a little nervous, but I think she's on board. Two credit cards will soon be gone. I pay one off every month, but I heard you say something on one of your podcasts that it doesn't

matter. Get rid of it because it's too easy to use, and you're so right about that. I'm working at home right now because of the COVID, but I'm starting to see the freedom that I want. I'm 68 years old. I enjoy what I do,

but I think I would really like to either retire or at least just go part-time someplace. Again, I love it, but and I know the money is there, but I'm still nervous. And you say pay things off, and once I started putting stuff on a spreadsheet, it started making some sense of how much interest I was paying. Total debt, including the house, is $80,000. I know you always ask. I've got $7,000 in a checking account, and I have $5,000 in the starter emergency fund.

I did that as soon as I got back from vacation. Now, some people wouldn't understand, I got $160,000 in mutual funds. And there's going to be another $100,000 coming as soon as we get rid of some property that is a family member from in the state. And it sounds like a no-brainer, uh my total income right now is around 80 but that includes you know the job and social security so what's your question what i'm trying to do is just decide is a smart thing just to go pay everything off and then you know sit there and then you know get control of expenses.

And since I won't have the house, I would love to move to where my grandchildren are. Well, why wouldn't you? I just have to get... Well, I'll tell you, the reason I haven't so far is because financial people that I've dealt with keep telling me... No, I didn't ask about what they think. I said, why wouldn't you pay off your debt? You got $100,000 on the way. When it comes, you can just pay off everything and never even touch your mutual funds, right?

Correct. Why wouldn't you? I guess because I've been nervous about things like that because I've always worried about the future. If I was worried about the future, it would make me be debt-free. Yeah, you said the money was there, Tony. You said the money's there. What are you truly afraid of?

I guess it not being there in case of an emergency. Yeah. But one thing, I will say this. From listening to your podcast and stuff, it's made me at least, I think I'm on my way to doing that. But that's why I wanted to run that by you. I know it doesn't make sense at all. Well, listen, if you pay everything off and you're miserable, you can go right back in debt.

That's a great point. You can always try that again. Somebody will give it to you. Oh, God. I don't think that will happen. You're going to be all right, sir sir you are finding your way through this okay so i want to ask you this because you've done this for so long so here he is he's got the money and he's still scared if i take this big chunk of money and i pay off my house or excuse me pay off the 80 grand in debt which is house and everything that's

everything he's going what if an emergency happens and i I think he fails. Still got a chunk of money. You still got a chunk of money, but you have no bills. Well, emergencies, it doesn't cost much to live when you don't have any debt. Right. So your burn rate, your survival rate is very, very low. Yeah. And so you can survive a long time when you don't have any payments. Yeah.

It's like you don't need it. Your emergency is a lot less of an emergency when you're debt-free. Depending on what kind of emergency it is. Well, that's fair. Yeah, I shouldn't blanket that. If it's an income emergency, that would be true. Yeah, if you lost your income or something like that. What happens in people's minds, and it's mine and yours too,

is we're drawing security from one thing, and then we start thinking about how to get to the future, and we can't see or feel the security. He doesn't feel the security of being debt-free like I do because I have been for 30 years. And so instead he's getting security from the $168,000 in mutual funds, and $100,000 is on the way. And so that is $368,000 minus 80 still leaves you a quarter million dollars that's right and so you're gonna be okay you're gonna be fine uh just

the question is uh you know it's just you're transferring the sense of security to debt freedom away from a pile of cash and that's an intellectual exercise and a spiritual and emotional exercise and all of those things and that's the that's the that's the journey he's on he's wandering down the path he's heading in the right that's so good you just outlined it's really the unknown there he just doesn't know it yeah so once he feels it and now like i tell people once you're dead free you won't ever if you if you had to pay a price to get there if you had the crap scared out of you now if you just got out of debt and you don't think anything about it, you'll go back in. But debt's everywhere, right?

But if you went through like what we went through, losing everything, and then once we got out of debt, there's no way I'm going back. The security that that gives me is greater than a pile of money. And he's going to pile it up pretty quick, running through his numbers. Oh, yeah. He's going to have 20 left over, right, after that 100. He could go part-time. He wants to retire. He could go part-time, take that part-time cash and just keep stacking that up. He's got his grand 20 left over, right, after that 100. He could go part-time. He wants to retire. He could go part-time, take that part-time cash and just keep stacking that.

And be there as grandbabies. I heard that. I heard him say that. I heard him say that. Yeah. That's an important thing right there. If I'd have known how great grandbabies are going to be, I'd have been nicer to their parents. All right.

Open phones at 888-825-5225. You guys jump in. We'll talk about your life and your money. This is about life transformation. Romans, one of the things I signed my Total Money Makeover book is Romans 12.2. Be not conformed to this world.

Don't be normal. Don't be like everybody else. The rest of that verse is good. Don't leave that out. Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. It means you think differently, then you can act differently. Once you see things differently because you've gotten your brain wrapped around them,

you've got an intellectual grasp of it, then you can make that step. And that's exactly what's happening with him. He's being transformed by the renewing of his mind. He's got new stuff, and so he's going to start drawing his security from the debt freedom rather than from the money versus the debt left in a pile, still gnawing at him

like a bunch of mosquitoes. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. This year has been unpredictable. Well, that's an understatement, but make this Christmas and New Year's your time to save money and give your loved ones gifts that will teach them how to make a plan for their money and their future. Our famous $10 sale is ending soon. This is your last chance to choose from over 40 of our most popular books, audiobooks, and more, all for just $10. Get my number one best-selling book, The Total Money Makeover. It's helped millions get out of debt. Or invest in yourself and learn what it takes to build wealth with Chris Hogan's number one national bestseller, Everyday Millionaires. For a limited time, you can pick up Debt-Free Degree by Anthony O'Neill

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Let's talk about your stress levels. That's a couple of them. Tens of thousands of you visiting that page already, and John's just getting going. So thanks for that. We appreciate the support and appreciate you checking out Ask. And if you want to send him a question, you can do that. AskJohn at RamseySolutions.com. We're getting some great questions from all over the country.

Tons of them, and it's so good. Very cool. Keep sending them. Also, we're going to be doing a millionaire theme hour soon. If you are a net worth millionaire, which is the only kind of millionaire there is, your net worth, your assets minus your liabilities, what you own minus what you owe equals a million dollars or greater than you are, by definition, a millionaire. I don't care how you feel it's a math

thing if you would tell us your story of how you got that you hit the lottery you inherited it all or you've worked like a dog for 30 years i don't whatever your story is we want to hear it email kelly at dave on air one word no spaces no dashes dave on air at dave ramsey.com and put millionaire theme hour in the subject line. Tell us a little bit about your story. She'll get you set up to be one of our callers because we want to talk to real millionaires on a millionaire theme hour, which was the genesis for the whole research project that resulted in the largest research project on millionaires ever done in North America. It resulted in a number one bestselling book with Chris Hogan called Everyday Millionaires.

So up next is going to be Christopher in Tennessee. Hey, Christopher, how are you? Hey, how's it going? I appreciate you taking my call. Sure, man. What's up? So I just wanted to get your opinion on what was a better retirement plan. I'm 23, and I'm in baby step six, and my house will be paid off in the next year and a half to two years.

Wow. And I was wondering what would be the better plan. Would it be to just continue to invest my 15% or after my house is paid for, pay cash for rentals and eventually have 10 to 20 rental houses and rely on cash flow and retirement from rent? Yeah, Baby Step 4 somewhat goes away or is accelerated or expanded when you get to baby step seven. So when you're at seven, which is your house is paid off, then it's build wealth and be

out registered generous is baby step seven. So that means you would max out whatever retirement planning you wanted to do or investing you wanted to do. I would continue to put at least 15% into your mutual funds, into your Roth IRA or your company retirement plan. But above that, if you didn't want to do any more there and you want to start saving to pay cash for real estate, that's certainly okay. Okay, I see.

It just depends on what you want. Right. Well, I would love to do real estate. My parents did real estate the whole time I was growing up, and I loved it. So I would love to get involved with real estate. But if it's wiser to just max out my retirement plans, 4-1-3 and stuff like that. No, it's not. I just want to do it wiser.

Mutual funds pay a smaller rate of return than good investment real estate does. But they have no hassle compared like i had to evict a tenant this week i think that's good i don't have to do that with mutual funds okay so i mean you don't have to deal with the crazy right so you just look at the mailbox or look at the email coming in and tells you what your balance is. But you make less. So a well-purchased, well-managed investment property will make you a greater rate of return, but it has more hassle. But you grew up in a real estate family like I did. You like real estate. My portfolio is way more real estate than it is mutual funds.

I've got a lot in both by my standards from growing up in Antioch, Tennessee, but way a lot in real estate. I mean, when you consider the building we're sitting in is $70 million. So, you know, I've got a lot in real estate. So there's an old wives' tale, an old line, Dave, that I've heard that is if you have to pick between investing in the markets, retirement programs, or real estate, the line is invest in dirt because they stopped making that a long time ago. Is that a truthful statement or is it a value statement? No, it's just there's a lot of dirt. Okay.

Go to North Dakota. Okay. There's a lot of dirt okay go to north dakota okay there's a lot of dirt right okay so that's yeah yeah they stopped making it but there's a plentiful supply and besides that dirt itself doesn't give you a rate of return there you go there's very few pieces of farmland that unless you are a farmer and farming it that actually give you the kind of rate of return that an office building will an apartment apartment, a rental real estate will. So what you're looking for is income-producing real estate. Not just sitting on it, not just a escalating value. I've got a nice farm that I bought just to hold the earth together kind of thing,

but I had no expectation that it was going to give me a huge rate of return. I got a great buy on the acreage, and it has gone up considerably in value, but I didn't really have a lot of hope when i bought it that that was going to do it but when i buy an office building or we buy a even a rental a single family rental property we expect we're running the numbers expecting that thing to give us a cash on cash rate of return and then of course there's a shelter and of course the increase in value we're going to get three rates of return on it, and we expect that. But the concept of they keep making houses, and there's a lot of dirt. So it's not like a short supply of real estate.

Right. So it's going to shoot up. But real estate is an imperfect market, meaning that in mutual funds, bazillions of people have the same pieces of information to make the exact same decision. And a limited number of people, comparatively, have information about this piece of real estate. So you can slip up on a deal on a piece of real estate way more often than you can on a mutual fund. There you go. You're pretty much just going to pay for the mutual fund.

It's going to go up. Okay. You don't want to do that in real estate. You want to buy real estate, be low market, pay cash for it. So he's doing good stuff there. I love it. Good stuff. Bethany is with us, and Bethany is in Tennessee.

Hi, Bethany. How are you? I'm okay. I'm a little nervous. It's okay. We've never lost a patient. How can we help? Well, we are on Baby Step 3, and we are renting cheaply from my husband's mom.

And we have kind of a rocky relationship with them because of boundary issues. And we are currently going to be living here for about two and a half years while my husband goes to college. So I was wondering how I could deal with my anger and resentment now so that in the later years I don't end up exploding and hurting my marriage. Who are you angry and resentful towards? A little bit of everyone that I'm stuck in this place. So it's not a good place?

I don't want to aim it well the physical place is fine but the mental place it's kind of rough because i'm far away from my family um it's their old family home so when they come over to work on it um they feel very, very opinionated about it. They own it. Yes, they do. Why would they not be opinionated about it? I don't know. It's just not... Well, they're opinionated about your housekeeping, your cooking skills, your relationship with

your husband, or the fact you painted the walls in a house that you don't own. My cooking and cleaning skills. Okay. So why do you have to live here? I know you get a good deal on it. Something I often ask people is, what's the total cost? Well, okay. This is expensive.

My husband wants to go into being a police officer, and so he's currently working as a security guard as a temporary job because he had to drop out of the academy for personal reasons for a little bit. I was pregnant at the time. And we currently don't really make enough to be saving money towards our emergency fund and paying a normal rent. So we had agreed that we would stay here, even though I'm not happy here, for two and a half years. Okay, I'll tell you what, you hang on. We're going to bring you back from this break, and John will give you a good thorough answer. I don't want to try to answer something this deep in 10 seconds, okay?

So hang with us. Dr. John Deloney, my co-host today. We'll be right back. something this deep in 10 seconds. So hang with us. Dr. John Deloney, my co-host today. Thank you. you're listening to the best of the dave ramsey show we'll be back soon with more live content thanks for joining us america anthony o'neill ramsey personality is my co-host on the air today danielle is with us in athens georgia hi danielle how are you Thanks for joining us, America. Anthony O'Neill, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host on the air today. Danielle is with us in Athens, Georgia. Hi, Danielle. How are you?

Hi, Dave. I'm doing well. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I need your help settling a lively marital discussion. My husband and I have been talking about this for about a year, and he actually encouraged me to call in because I've been very dogged in what I think is the right thing to do.

You said your husband what for a year? Say that again. We've just been discussing it for about a year. Oh, okay. And he encouraged you to call this show? Yes. Those are the answers. Okay. Yeah. And hi, Anthony. Glad to hear from you, too. So, broadly, our question is, should we buy and flip a fixer-upper, or, Anthony's going to love it, pay off our student loans? Well, you know what I'm going to like. Well, yes, you know what both Dave and I are going to like.

But what's the argument? I mean, what are you saying, Danielle? Would you like some context? Please do. So, my husband and I have been, we've been married for seven years. Okay. And we actually got to the money makeover at the wedding, and we've always been

dating-ish. I'm the oldest of eight. He's the oldest of six. There's nothing to fall back on if we totally feel alive. So, we've always been fairly conservative in our spending and had student loans and no credit card debt. But my master's is in nonprofit management. His is in social work. So we have to be creative with how we fill our budget.

So in essence, we bought our first house in 2015. It was like $82,000. It was like $3,500 down payment. And he renovated the whole house himself. So we bought it for 82, put 14 or so into it over two years, sold it when we had an 18-month-old and I was seven months pregnant, sold it for $128,500, and then took that $35,000 net profit, put as a down payment on our current house.

Okay. So we want to be able to use his skill set. His dad built one of his houses when he was 12. He and his brothers can all tile, and they've refinished floors and built roofs, right? And so he really wants to get into, we're in Athens, it's a college town, he wants to get into, we're in Athens, it's a college town, he wants to get into rentals. I want to be completely debt-free and very low risk before we consider that. How much student loans do you have? $19,583. What's your household

income? Our net is about $70,000 and mine fluctuates. Last year I was coaching a lot at a local boutique fitness studio and we've always used his as the foundation and then I kind of part-time brings us in. We have a three and a five-year-old so my work juggles around. So explain to me why during the year you've been talking about this you couldn't have already paid off the student loan. Excellent question Dave. We refinanced to a 15-year with a cash out in, actually on March 15th of this year, which was two days before our county locked down,

with the intent to pay off the student loan immediately. And because everything locked down, we decided to give it six months while there was a break on student loan interest rates and build up our emergency savings. So we're at a three month now. We didn't want to have only a thousand dollars in the bank during COVID just in case because his job is pretty secure. But we've always done a lot of. So are you back to work accommodating with my extra? I am not. There's no fitness jobs.

OK, so while you so you get enough cash out of the refinance to pay off the student loan, right? Correct. And you're still sitting on that? That's right, Dave. Okay, and so while you were sitting on this egg, he starts to go, I want to buy a house with it instead. He's been thinking that since about May. That was not the agreement when we refinanced the house.

When we refinanced the house was we were going to pay off the student loan, and the only reason we didn't was COVID hit. Right. And so because COVID hit, we sat on this egg, and this egg's starting to crack now, and he's starting to lose his mind and go on to buy a house. Yes, that's accurate. And was he still working during COVID? Yeah. Oh, he's starting to lose his mind and go on to buy a house. Yes, that's accurate. And was he still working during COVID?

Yeah. Oh, he's never quit. Never quit, yeah. Yeah, he works in IT for the university and works remote right now. So his income's solid. Danielle, come on. Let me help you out. This is Anthony.

I'm going to be a more calmer version of Dave for you, okay? I want you to get the money and go pay off the student loans. Thank you. I mean, just get the money, go pay off the student loans. And then once you pay off the student loans, go back to the three months. Then after the three months, then, I mean, we're just going to work the baby steps. You know, I think a lot of people right now just are getting, like, money hungry. Oh, I can use my skills to make more money.

And that's fine. I want you to make more money. Dave and me, we both want you to make more money. But do it on a solid foundation. So what does he do for a living now? He went back to his bachelor's. He's in IT for UGA. How many hours a week does he work?

Program software. He's 40 hours a week salary. Perfect. Perfect. Okay, so let me tell you. I got a buddy of mine that's good with laying tile and putting up trim and doing carpentry work and fixing a gutter. Started a little remodel business. And last year he made $300,000 profit.

Oh, man. So these are skills that are valuable. I'm not sure your husband necessarily wants to leave the IT field, but I think on the weekend he could build some decks and do some other stuff, and he can make more money doing that than he can screwing around and flipping houses and bankrupting you people. Thank you. I'm someone else's dime because they're in and they're just hello no risk they just write

you checks yeah for your work the rest is my favorite phrase and we get to use and we get to use our skill that mom and or the dad taught me which is a wonderful skill my dad taught me to swing a hammer too it's a wonderful thing to be able to pick up a screwdriver and know which end works you know and so it's a good thing i'm glad he has that skill but it is it's leading you guys down a bad path you need to write a check pay off the student loans as soon as you talk to him tonight i don't want you to hide it from him but anthony's advice is exactly correct interesting discussion it is so it's almost as if you're heading in the right direction and if you pause instead of going ahead and doing what you're supposed to do, it gives you the opportunity to do stupid.

Yes. That was the problem. You could almost take, you know, you're going down the interstate, and you let your foot off the gas, and the car starts drifting towards the exit. Yes. And the exit says, land of stupid. Right. Right. And that was the interesting thing and i've done that

before dave you know i i see you know i'm gonna do this then when i get it actually in my hands yeah you look at that pile of money i'm like oh wait you look maybe i'm gonna go over here rather than going over the when when sometimes just best don't even see it get it and do exactly what you was going to do with it execute your plan yep develop your plan execute your plan and uh the only now they did have a valid reason for tapping the brakes because of covid okay i don't argue that but it is interesting that when you have a moment to think about it yeah i've done that too i that's what i could relate to i thought you know when if i just would go ahead and do what the flip I'm supposed to do instead of stopping and thinking about it, it really, because when I think about it, it's when I get dumb sometimes.

That's exactly what happened there. Yeah. So interesting. Very interesting discussion. Now, we've got to say this too, Dave. Now, when you're going into your emergency fund, you do want to stop and think and make sure that it is emergency. So we're not telling people don't think, but we're saying when you say you're going to do something, do it. Well, you know, I'm executing on a plan,

and the next step of the plan is X, and if you pause and start gazing at that pot of gold, your eyes will cross, and you'll go into a gold coma. Absolutely. Yeah, that's what happens, and that's very interesting. And they did it for the right reasons, because they should have paused because of COVID. Yeah. I don't disagree with that.

You didn't want to have $1,000 in the bank. That was her point. And that follows what we were teaching people in the middle of COVID. Yeah. You know, just calm down. Pause. You know, pause. You don't have to do a bunch of moves right now.

However, it is also an interesting principle that here here's what i'm trying to say what he said sometimes we overthink it sometimes we overthink it james we overthink how do you how do you lose weight you eat less and you work out you know what makes you look thinner than wearing black being Being thinner. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Thank you. You're listening to the best of The Dave Ramsey Show. We'll be back soon with more live content. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today here on The Dave Ramsey Show. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Our question of the day comes from Blinds.com. They have a 100% satisfaction guarantee, meaning if you mismeasure, you pick the wrong color, they'll remake your window blinds for free. You'll get free samples, free shipping, and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more. The promo code, the magic word, Ramsey. Promo code, Ramsey. John, our question. Today's question comes from Michelle in Ohio.

She visits DaveRamsey.com to ask, Can you go over the differences between enabling somebody and helping somebody? That's a good, short, insightful question there. What do you think, Dave? Well, I think you have the Ph.D. in counseling. that's a good, short, insightful question there. What do you think, Dave? Well, I think you have the Ph.D. in counseling, but I've got an opinion, of course. I've got an opinion about everything.

I do, too. I think enabling somebody is for you, and helping them is for them. Enabling somebody, paying somebody's rent, makes you feel good, versus I'm trying to help somebody out of a spot that's going to actually benefit them in the long run. That's just off the top of my head. What do you think?

I think most enablers would have a hard time realizing they're doing it for themselves. Right. So, you know, you're doing it for you. Well, I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing it to help him. And so, you know, the thing I always think about when enabling is the classic giving a drunk a drink. Are you participating in their misbehavior? So you look at it on the back end. Causing it to continue.

Are you like joining up for crazy and uh if you're participating in their misbehavior then you're a helicopter mom coming in the kids misbehaving and you're bailing them you know you're saying well the teacher's wrong you know versus my house where i grew up the teacher was never wrong even when they were wrong never right even if the teacher was a toxic abuser they were on my parents team you know it was like um so you know there's just no chance that you could have a helicopter parent coming out of my house so uh which is good i mean but versus and so when you're enabling you really are not helping and if you'll stop and realize that then it'll help you not be an enabler right and when i have been when i have been in situation, and I'll tell you the other thing is there's something about enabling.

I think it's harder to help and requires more effort, emotional energy, and time than it does to enable. More intentionality. Yeah. It's kind of like the guy standing on the side of the road, you know, we'll work for food. Okay. It's kind of like the guy standing on the side of the road will work for food. It's hard to put the guy in a car and take him and have him cut grass and then pay him. Then it is just give him some money. And if you just give him some money, you're probably really participating in something that is not helpful.

Whereas if you take him out and teach him a skill. Yeah. Or if he really just needs food, take him over to the restaurant and buy him a plate of food. Right. And, of course, you know, we all know the story. Sometimes you find out that wasn't what they were after. Anyway, they're just running that corner. That's their corner.

But aside from that, are you really helping? And it's almost a cheap, you're cheap out when you're enabling. It's easier. It's quicker. I'll just throw some money at it. I'll just throw some whatever at it. So if you are participating in things that at the end of the story have caused them harm, which you kind of got to pan back and do that.

And, you know, you sit down with somebody, they come to you and they say you know i need i need i need money for rent why um and you dig into it you realize i got a drug problem so when you pay the rent basically you bought the drugs right and so you've got it's harder to take that person by the hand lead them into a 12-step group you know go pay for their counseling right or their coaching or whatever they need to pay for the rehab it's harder to do that and i'm assuming all things are equal with the money you know but but you know it just takes more effort and and you know i found this also to be true about giving just your generosity it takes more effort to do giving right that's right that's going to actually have a demonstrable effect, help people in the long term, and not just be a sieve, right? Yeah. So these aren't real. None of that's a real good

clinical definition, or not even a clear definition, but it's just observation. Yeah, and I think you and I are coming at it just one's on the front, one's on the back, is like, what's this money that, what's this money, What's this money? What's this opportunity? What's this thing you're giving somebody? What's the fruit going to be after you plant the tree? And I like to look up front. If somebody asks me for money...

Okay, let me give you an example. How does this play into your definition? My friend who mishandles money, and that's their only sin. They're just disorganized, impulsive, immature, and they call up and go, you know, I need $200. And I said, no. If I say, yeah, here's $200, I'm an enabler. There you go. Okay? If I don't, and I say, listen, I'll give you $200, but only if you're enrolled in Financial Peace University, only after I look at your budget with you, and only after you agree to stop these behaviors that are causing you to be broke in the first place.

One's an enabler. One's a helper. Same amount of money. And I don't know how to describe the difference in those two. And if I just gave them the $200, how's that about me? Because you can. It's dismissive. It gets you out of it.

You don't have to have the hard conversation of saying, no, I don't want to do that. It's emotionally lazy. Right. Or it feels good that somebody comes to me because I've taken care of my business. The way you describe that, I think you've got to be careful because it can be judgmental, which is if somebody asks you for $200, I'm going to read into why you need it, what you haven't done, and what you're probably going to do with it versus, hey, man, I'll just help you out. And sometimes I will go too far down the road and saying, oh, you don't have $200 because

of this and because of this, because of this. Sometimes you just need $200. But I think what you mentioned coming up front is I'm going to sit down and have a hard conversation with you before I just give money to you. Yeah, I don't want to just do a drive-by. That's exactly right. And that all comes back to intentionality. And that is real love.

Right. Is actually caring enough about them to not necessarily be judgmental and confront every issue, but just start asking a bunch of questions. Why are you here? And then you're starting to ascertain, am I really helping or am I funding crazy? That's exactly right. Because with enabling, you're almost always funding some kind of crazy, some kind of dysfunction, some kind of misbehavior, some kind of toxic, the kid misbehaving, the helicopter mom.

You're funding it then. And sometimes people get in a bind and they just need some help. Yeah, and I don't mind doing that. That's exactly right. But I think you – I mean, we're saying it over and over, but man, just be intentional and get involved. Yeah. Ask that extra question.

Hey, what happened? Are you doing okay? Is there a bigger thing I can be supportive of? What else is going on in your world that... Yeah, the 28-year-old that lives in his mother's basement and games all day long and won't get a job. Right. Mom is an enabler. An absolute enabler.

And so, because she's participating in allowing him to not become who God designed him to be. And how that helps her is she gets to keep her baby around. She gets to not have a hard conversation. She gets to not do the hard parent job of constructing boundaries and holding them up holding them firm right and so this whole thing just protects her her fantasy world and she just keeps perpetuating down this down the street i have never thought about it until today in this way that enabling is emotionally lazy you you're character lazy it's just not investment in other people you're not willing to you know to do the do the stuff that's good for them and so you just you throw something you know you you you just allow it or even ask the the that next question in the next question how are you

it's just it's it's i'd say it's emotionally lazy it's character lazy it's it's spiritually lazy it's yeah it just treats a person as a transaction instead of a relationship. It's not really loving. No, absolutely not. At the end of the day. It's just because you didn't love them enough to help them. To truly get into what's going on in your heart, yeah. A 28-year-old lives in your basement, and they have absolutely no ambition, and you still make their clothes.

Failure to launch movie, you know, that kind of stuff. You still wash their clothes. You still cook their meals. They don't pay anything. They basically are operating emotionally at a 14-year-old level, and they're a full-time gamer down there. You know, I mean, it's just that's, you know, what you have done is you have stunted the emotional growth of your kid.

Right. By allowing this. And so my friends know when they call me for help, I'm going to be the first in line. Yeah. But they also know they're going to get a whole bunch of questions. How are you? You doing okay?

What's going on? Are your kids okay? Why are we here? Yeah. Are we not going to be here again? They'll love you. Yeah. Yeah. If I'm going to help you, I don't want you to have to be here again.

Because otherwise I was in a neighborhood. There you go. Wow. That's a good question. I like that. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, it's Kelly, associate producer and phone screener for the Dave Ramsey Show. This episode is over, but if you heard about an event product or service and didn't have a chance to

write it down, don't worry. We list everything you've heard about during this episode in the podcast show notes or head to Dave Ramsey.com. Thanks for listening.