The Ramsey Show - App - When You Put Pressure on a Coal, It Becomes a Diamond (Hour 2)

Episode Date: May 14, 2020

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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the Dollar Car Rental Studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Joining me as co-host this hour, the panel is back. It's an Entree Leadership, a small business theme hour. Small business is truly statistically, philosophically, and spiritually the backbone of the American economy. And we're here to help you if you're running a small business. If you've got a question, maybe you've got pandemic-itis of some kind at your small business.

Maybe you've just got a simple question about business. Joining me is my co-host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality No. 1, best-selling author of the book, The Proximity Principle, expert on jobs and careers. His show does this all the time. And, of course, Daniel Tardy, our Executive Vice President of Entree Leadership, sits on the operating board here at Ramsey Solutions, Executive VP of the Entree Leadership brand and all of the products that come in that area.

So thanks for joining us, guys. Glad to be here, Dave. Thanks for having me. It's always fun. Yeah. You know what? I have been thinking about how many business owners right now are starting something that in five years is going to be one of the great American businesses. You know, it's a season of lots of disruption and lots of pressure, but it's also a season of opportunity.

And there's been so much pressure on business owners right now. And there's been pressure on us. We felt the pressure. But what I've experienced and what I know is the leader that I am now and going forward is different and better than the leader I was coming into this. You put pressure on that coal, it becomes a diamond, and that's what's happening right now. The pressure sucks, but it also creates transformation. Yeah, I think we're going to hear a lot of stories of people

who are ready to quit before this. And then when this happened, this crisis, they doubled down to try to save it because it wasn't just about them. They didn't have control of the timeline of how they quit. So they buckled up and they got after it. They came out of this thing strong and they said, boy, I'm sure glad I didn't quit. I think you hear those kinds of stories as well, because I just, you know, I think of the blacksmith. When I was a kid, my dad took me all these history places. And I remember the first time I ever saw a blacksmith do his thing.

Take this inanimate piece of wrought iron, stick it in the fire until it got literally orange-yellow, and he would pull it out of the fire and then put it on an anvil and proceed to just beat the ever-living stew out of it. It's the fire, the heat, and it's the pounding that shapes that iron into something extremely useful. And I think that's what we're seeing across the board with America's small businesses and leaders. I think you're going to see some unbelievably exciting and inspiring stories out of this. Absolutely true. Entrepreneurs are some of the top problem solvers in the world. Yep. And when presented with a problem and pressure, they find a solution.

Sometimes they don't. Sometimes you hit the wall and you know it totally disintegrates that happened to me i lost everything went broke when i was in my 20s and uh guess what came out of that all of this you know uh the resurrection after the death was uh real the phoenix coming up out of the ashes was very very real and i know at ramsey uh we got the snot kicked out of us in a few areas and and it scared us enough that we jumped on it with all with both feet started scratching clawing scrapping hustling grinding and uh we felt it and uh you know made up the revenue with new ideas brand new things we'd never done before uh and are doing things in different ways than we'd ever done them before to get us to where we need to be and um so we've stretched here we will

never return to the same shape um when someone says uh these days well they always do it with the spirit of eeyore right well there's a new normal coming. You better get used to the new normal. And I think what God is saying is, no, I think what he's saying is you ain't seen nothing yet. You're getting ready to do things you've never done in ways you've never done them, and you would have never done that had you not gone through this crap. Now, I don't want to prescribe crap for the way to learn things, but it is a thorough teacher. Well, what you're hitting on there is there's really two types of people, and that is that when the pressure comes, Ken,

you're talking about the heat and the blacksmith. Some people buckle and they go, okay, we just can't do this anymore, and there's too much pressure. And then some people use that pressure to transform. In fact, did you know that when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly and it goes into the – what's the thing called? It's a cocoon. A cocoon right yeah it is coming out if you go up and you slit that to try to help it get out of there and become a butterfly a little bit faster you actually kill the butterfly because it's the struggle of coming out of that cocoon that creates the strength in the wings that allows that thing

to fly off and you talk about transformation you're going from a caterpillar to a butterfly you're a new creation. You're a transformed being, and that's what pressure will do if you're the type of person that embraces it instead of buckles down. Everyone is that type of person. It's a decision, and some of the reason you don't finish is you can't finish. You run out of steam, or the idea that you're working on needs to be killed and reborn in a different way later. You know, I thought I was going to be a real estate mogul. That idea died when I went broke.

And what was born out the other side of it, you know, was all of this. Right. And so I don't know exactly what your journey is if you're listening to us today in this process, but all of these metaphors and all of these philosophies we're laying out there regarding the pressure, the stress, the freak out, what we're telling you over and over and over again is that it's going to be okay. The other side of it, you're going to be just fine. Open phones as we take your questions from small business people all across America. Whatever your question, you jump in.

We're holding lines open for you, 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. And every Thursday night, including tonight, we are doing a free digital event series for small businesses. Now, what we did is this. Entree Leadership Summit is our major, big-time, top names in the world speaking and teaching, and there's usually 2,000 to 3,000, 3,500 people at these events. We have never done anything with the footage, and we have had the top names

everywhere. We went to several of these people and said, if we don't charge for it, can we use your footage? They used one of my lessons last week. This week, Marcus Buckingham, nine lies about work. Next week, Henry Cloud, all about desired future next week pat lincione now this is all free it's called entree leadership summit unlocked over 22 000 people have already signed up it's completely free and we're releasing this top drawer the best of the best and the video quality everything is from our past summits and And along with the video guides, we're going to give you a discussion guide for you and your team to make it completely free. And make sure to RSVP because each talk is only going to be available to watch for 24 hours each time. We've got to limit it because we don't have rights from these guys except to do just to put it out there, right?

And then it comes back so to rsvp and get the team discussion guide you text the word unlocked to 44 222 that's unlocked to 44 222 and daniel if i'm reading this right they can watch it anytime during that thursday is that right well they got to get in now to get the one from marcus buckingham because if they wait a week that one's gone and so they got to jump on to get these. Today's Thursday. Yeah. So tonight, today, all day.

But it's not Thursday night, because Ken's got the thing next Thursday night. That's right. He's got a live stream next Thursday night. So Thursday's a big deal around here. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. folks i love telling you about well-made well-thought-out products today i'm talking about grip six belts i don't know about you but I'm not a fan of traditional belts. They never fit right, and they're uncomfortable. Grip 6 belts are unique. Owner BJ designed a truly modern, minimalist belt made of high-quality materials with no holes, no flap, and no bulk. And the

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That's GRIP6.com. it's an entree leadership theme hour this hour this is the dave ramsey show ken coleman ramsey personality and executive vice president of entree Daniel Tardy, are my co-hosts for the hour. Arthur is in California. Hey, Arthur, welcome to the show. How can we help? Hey, Dave. I did your financial piece eons and decades ago and became dedicated to not using credit cards. And I am a small date grower. I grow dates and do farmer's markets. I have resisted taking credit cards because of the 3.5% that it cost me. That's 3.5%. That's 100% profit that's out of my pocket.

And also just because I believe in the philosophy that you guys teach, which is not using credit cards, but increasingly I'm starting now in this last year, especially starting to actually lose sales because people don't have anything but plastic. Is there an alternative to credit cards that doesn't cost me three and a half percent and where i'm still protected against fraud credit card you know you're limited on fraud at 25 bucks but is there something like that another vehicle that we can use as far as a merchant yes i'm a merchant yeah that's what i'm making sure you're talking about, that side of the equation. As far as a merchant, I'm not aware of one. We take debit cards here at Ramsey.

We do not take credit cards. And our service that we use allows us to do that. But we do pay the fee. I don't remember if it's three and a half on our volume or not, but on small volume it is three, three and a half. So that's fairly normal. And that is a, you know, a lot of our sales, the vast majority of our sales are online. So to not be able to take plastic in the debit card form would put us out of business.

We are, it does cost us business that we don't take credit cards, but we're willing to take that because we tell people not to use credit cards. We're not in this, but we're in the business of teaching about that. You're not. So if you were to just get something like a square that pops into your phone and you can just run a card down it, those are probably 3%, 3.5%, 2%. Yeah, they're about 3%. But it's a very easy way in a farmer's market setting for you to take plastic.

But you're going to have the fee. I don't know of anything that is fee-less on the merchant side. Yeah, but, you know, Arthur, I would look at this as you're saying that it's costing you sales right now. Would you rather have 0% or would you rather have 97% of that sale and give 3% as a – I mean, what you're getting as a convenience when you're paying that commission to the merchant, the card merchant, is probably worth it to get those additional sales. And I mean, you've got to make a personal decision. I mean, like Dave's saying, there's no way we can take credit cards with what we teach, but it's core germane to exactly, you know, this is how we teach people to do it. I don't know if you want to use your business to enforce those same

principles or not, but that's a personal decision, and we're not. I don't know if you want to use your business to enforce those same principles or not, but that's a personal decision, and we're not going to beat you up if you choose to do that. Well, he's not going to be able to change their habits anyway. So, you know, why hurt yourself? It doesn't change their habits when we don't take it either. That's right. But it would make us into hypocrites. Right.

Exactly. Which is different than if you're selling strawberries. That's right. You know, and so, or whatever. He said dates. Yeah. If you're selling dates, okay, or whatever. So, um, I mean, if you're in the restaurant business and you hate credit card debt, uh, but you choose to continue to accept credit cards,

that's not, uh, it's not inconsistent because you're not putting people into debt there. Uh, now what you don't want to do in a business where you accept financing of some kind, if you're against debt is to, is to encourage't want to do in a business where you accept financing of some kind, if you're against debt, is to encourage your responsibility or participate in irresponsibility or subprime stuff and those kinds of things. I wouldn't ever tell you to do that. But in your case, Arthur, I don't think you're being inconsistent. You can do whatever you want to do, but I don't think you're being inconsistent. And honestly, I think I hear you're more concerned about the 3.5% anyway.

Thomas is in Georgia. Hey, Thomas, welcome to an Entree Leadership Theme Hour. How can we help? Thank you, David. Thank you, Ken. I just want to say first, I wouldn't even be asking this question if it wasn't for you two. I was stuck in a job, Ken, that I was absolutely miserable, making great money. I'm an electrician.

Long story short, I left that job last September, and since January 1, Dave, this year, we're projected to make about $400,000 this year, which is, I'm just humbled. I'm blown away at what God has done. But my question is, I'm struggling with a truck. I really want a truck. I want something nice.

I'm driving a 10-year-old F-150 with no air conditioner in Georgia. You know, that's all I need to say. But emotionally and mentally, I'm struggling because I've just, I know vehicles are a bad investment. I'm not talking about buying a new $40,000 to $50,000 F-250 diesel. And so I want something nice, but I want to do the right thing. And emotionally, I'm going back and forth. It occupies too much of my head space.

Please clear this up for me. Help me out. All right. So you're paying cash for a used truck. Yes, sir. And you're going to spend how much? I would say $45,000. Okay, and you made $400,000 profit?

Yes, sir, before taxes. Okay. If you wanted to buy that truck for personal use only with a $400,000 income and you're paying cash, there's no problem with that. If in addition to that it has a business, actual business use, then that adds to the case. But if you just call me up and said, I don't own my own business, but I work and I make a salary of $400,000 and I want to buy a $45,000 car and I have the cash, I would tell you to do it. Assuming you're debt-free, are you? Yes, sir. Okay.

Yes, sir. I don't own a home yet. I've got about 80 saved for retirement and about $110,000 in a brokerage account. But we don't own a home. I know you would definitely disagree with that. I'm not freaked out about it. I mean, you're going to buy a home. You're making serious money.

And this truck purchase doesn't keep you from buying a home, does it? No, sir. There's nothing wrong with this purchase. I also really like that it's an investment into your business. You want to do it, and the percentages match up if you're just doing it for personal use. But in business, you shouldn't have any expenses. Everything you spend money on should be an investment. And so part of what this truck's going to do for you is allow you to go to the jobs and do the work. And that's what generates

the revenue. And that causes your business to run. And so we talk to people on the other extreme of this sometimes where they're trying to use their business to get every little thing they've ever wanted and buying toys. Well, it's rationalization. That's not what you're doing. I think you need to give yourself permission to make a wise decision, which is buy used and pay cash. But it's going to be good for your business. Thomas, I'm proud of you. You've made some great moves here, and you're overthinking this.

Get out of your head. You've gotten permission from the guy who's given you great clarity before. Don't think twice about this. Move forward, man. Give yourself permission to celebrate and savor the victory. You know, this is a great opportunity for you to drive a nicer truck. You've earned it. It's within the ratio, as Dave has so beautifully laid out.

You know, we can't feel bad about the spoils of victory. You know, that's part of winning, and it's okay. Well, say more about this, because it's very common for a business owner to start out with very little means, and they're used to struggling in a day job and not making a lot of money, and then they start doing what he's doing, and he's making $400,000.

Well, there's two things you have to be careful of. One end of the spectrum is, don't use your business to rationalize purchases. You know, and you go, I made that for business for business no you didn't that's just bullcrap okay now he might i'm not saying that but yet you don't want to fall on that in the spectrum the other in the spectrum is you're making more money than you've ever had made in your life and the math has grown faster than your emotional capacity to wrap your arms around the math and so that's happened around here sure i mean this this company will do 200 and and something million this year, top line.

I'm from Antioch, Tennessee. That blows my mind. I can't emotionally keep up with the numbers sometimes. I mean, we spend more on computers or more on coffee than I used to make. You know, I mean, it's just it's like you know and so you can't emotionally get your head around it that's it and that's you know and i still can't sometimes you still react it's about the time i get my emotions caught up we make more money so i just it screws it up you know i mean it's just but you know when he went from nothing to

400k it takes a little while there's still that little boy out in the street going, what the crap? Who can't process $45,000 on anything? Exactly. Much less a truck. Exactly. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. You know, I get lots of questions about ID theft since it's a huge problem. Most people just worry about financial fraud, which is a big mistake. Tax refund fraud, for example, is out of control.

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It's an Entree Leadership Theme Hour. The panel answering small business questions. Daniel Tardy, Executive Vice President, Operating Board Member here at Ramsey Solutions over the all things Entree Leadership. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality. And number one best-selling author of the book, The Proximity Principle. We announced last week a free service we have for you small business folks. 22,000 of you have already signed up. It's called Entree Leadership Summit Unlocked.

Our premier leadership event called Entree Leadership Summit has some of the top speakers and teachers in the world over the years for sure. Household names in the business world particularly that we contacted and said if we are trying to help folks during this time would you allow us to use your talk from summit which we of course videoed for free for people to watch. And last week was a talk I did about market disruption, which we were square in the middle of market disruption. Now, it was prophetic. Today, May the 14th, is Marcus Buckingham, Nine Lies About Work. That is a fabulous talk. I was sitting in the audience taking notes when he did it,

and a brilliant friend of ours. And if you would like to get the discussion guide for you and your team, it is completely free. You do need the Marcus Buckingham talk is today. Next Thursday is Henry Cloud's Desired Future, and the following Thursday is Pat Lencioni's The Advantage of Organizational Health, Mental Health of the Organization as a brand advantage and uh so along with the videos we'll send you a discussion guide for you and your team it's all completely free you need to rsvp today each talk is only available for 24

hours so the buckingham talk's only up for 24 more hours. And the talk I did last week is already gone. So text the word UNLOCKED to 44222. UNLOCKED, text it to 44222, and get signed up for that. And, again, it's completely free, and we'll send it. You can send out the discussion guide, sit there and go over. You guys and the team go over it with you together. It's going to be very, very good. And, you know, you do not want to – all three of these remaining talks are world-class thought leaders in the area,

and their talks are incredible. All right, Roz is with us in Indiana. Hey, Roz, welcome to the Dave Ramsey Show. How can we help? Thanks for taking the call, Dave. It's a great honor to speak to you. You too. How can we help? Thanks for taking my call, Dave. It's a great honor to speak to you. You too. How can I help? My question is about my parents' family business. They have a small wine and liquor shop in Indiana. And when the state was shut down, they had shut down kind of during the

peak of the cases in their county. And now as things are starting to open back up, they've been doing delivery. They are debating closing the shop down altogether. They are in a really good financial position. Their employees are really eager to return to work, especially now with the $600 bonus ending in July on their unemployment. They get a lot of money in tips. They get a lot of support from the community. They sell bottled drinks, cold water. And the community really likes that shop,

and it would be really sad for the employees if everyone were to get laid off and the shop were to get closed. My dad's 66. My mom's 64. They're very blessed. My dad came to this country with like $300 in his pocket, and now he's worth over $2 million. So if they were to close it, what would they do with the inventory?

They could probably sell the inventory off to other liquor stores really easily, even at full price or near retail. Why would they not just sell the shop instead of close it? Well, they could sell the shop. I guess that would be part of the closing. So they could sell the shop. They tried to sell the shop. They sold the shop two years ago, and it was very strange.

The person they sold it to was having problems with indiana taxes and wasn't doing everything above board so the indiana government actually reverted the license back to the original owner them and so they went back and reopened the shop but my mom's been trying to retire for years because they're in the financial position to do so yeah my dad says you know just because they sold it to a goob doesn't mean selling it is the wrong decision. That just means they sold it to the wrong guy. That's true. If they sell it now, my dad feels that, you know,

maybe the person who buys it isn't going to keep the employees on. They've got, you know, three people on the board there. Why don't you sell it to one of the employees? Oh, the employees that they have are, you know, like $7 an hour. They don't have a manager? No, my mom's a manager. Okay, all right. So it sounds like they're ready in this season of life they're in to sell this and have an exit.

What if you said, I'll take less for it, but you have to keep the employees for a year as part of the deal? That's not a bad idea, actually. I think that finding the right buyer might be the right move for them to exit, keep themselves safe, and then also continue the business. That's a really great idea. Yeah, these are classic small business people. They love their employees. Yeah, they hire three single moms. They're only making like $7 or $8 an hour, but with tips and everything,

they do really well. They support their families on their own. If they were cold-hearted jerks or parents and they didn't care about their people, the only thing blocking them from selling is their people. Yeah. And so they just make their people part of the deal. That's a really great idea. Thanks, Dave.

You guys got any better ideas? Well, the question I have, Roz, is are you calling on their behalf? Because it sounds like you said they're thinking about not reopening. It's what I thought I heard you say, and I'm curious what your interest is in this. Is it just because you feel for the employees, or are you trying to help them make the best decision? Where do you stand in all this? It's tough because, like, so I haven't been able to sit down with them in months. Like I'm on the front lines. I work as a physician in a different city. And so, you know, I, you know,

I talk to them every day on the phone about how things are going at the shop. I think, you know, I think they made moves to sell it before. They're really ready to retire. You know, they, they put me and my sister through school. They, they've saved a lot for retirement and I think they're ready to go. I just think my dad, especially with the social distancing, isn't ready necessarily. He doesn't think it's a great idea to start that season of life now. I mean, with the tax bonuses and everything coming in right now for people, people are like the liquor store has long lines. If he opens at 6 o'clock in the morning, there's 50 people in line.

Yeah. It's crazy. So, like, why should we sell now? Business is the highest it's been in a year. Yeah, well, I mean, it doesn't have to be now, but you could say, you know, when business slows and there's a more normal rhythm to the business after the shutdowns are starting to go away. I don't know when Indiana's opening up, but, you know, you go through those different things, then say, you know, in the falls are starting to go away i don't know when indiana's opening up

but you know you go through those different things then say you know in the fall we're going to sell it or next spring we're going to sell it see the thing is if you've got a target it takes the pressure off and if you just go we're not going to sell it we're going to operate it well that's forever well but if you say we're going to sell it we're not going to sell it until this happens the challenge that she has i mean she doesn't mean, she doesn't work in the business, but she's trying to help her parents. Her parents are trying to make a good decision. They feel torn between the season of life and the team.

My parents owned a business, and it's a little weird talking to them. I know a lot about business. I lead Entree Leadership. We talk to you guys all the time. Trying to give your parents advice and direction on this, it sounds like you guys have a good relationship. You can't really just give them the answer. You got to prompt the conversations and give them options and say, hey, here's something to consider. Here's one. I got an idea. You know, in this situation, what if there's a lot

of people in the service industry that have been laid off? Restaurant, bar managers, there's some sharp people that need a job right now. I got to believe I would be considering looking for somebody like that who could be a manager in this bridge season that Dave's talking about. Take advantage of this opportunity where people are lining up at 8 a.m. to get liquor. Liquor sales across the country are exploding. I would take advantage of this, get those people back to work, those single moms that they love dearly, get some people stable until he finds the right buyer. But I think there's plenty of people who could manage that store while they stay at home well and you can also negotiate that your dad stays on for a year or two years to ensure the team is taken care of as the president or you know operates the business as a part of the deal um so you could have a good

transition there i think that's a bridge idea yeah yeah and like you said the good news is there's probably some managerial help sitting at home right now that would love a job. And it might even be your buyer. Might even just sit them in the seat and let them become the buyer. Absolutely, that's what I think. Either one. It's a good discussion, Ross. And I appreciate your heart towards your parents.

And I appreciate their heart towards their team. Loving on their employees as well. This is the Daveave ramsey show folks since you're spending more time at home these days why not make the most of it now i know not everyone has the means to do a full renovation, but thanks to our friends at Blinds.com, there are some small changes you can make to help improve your home. Blinds.com makes it incredibly simple to shop top quality blinds, shades, and interior shutters from home with easy online ordering and free shipping right to your door. Listen, window treatments are a simple project that you can do that really benefits the look

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The other on the panel, the co-host, would be Daniel Tardy, Executive Vice President of Entrez Leadership. We talk with small businesses all the time. Kirk is with us in Florida. Hey, Kirk, how are you? Excellent. How about you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I'm a small business owner.

Thank you, Joe, a large part to you. I've been debt-free for north of 10 years now. Good. And part of the problem with being debt-free is I also have the credit report to show for it, meaning I have no credit. Wonderful. I haven't had a credit card. Yeah.

That's a badge of honor, man. Thank you. Me neither. So anyhow, I'm a small business owner, and I bank with a small regional bank, and they ran out of the Paycheck Protection Program money like in about five minutes. And they ran out before I had a chance to apply. Is your revenues down? Yes.

How much? Right now I'm probably down for the three months about 40%, or for the two months about 40%. What kind of business? What type of business do you have? I have a jewelry inbound. Okay. A pawn shop that specializes in jewelry. Gotcha.

Okay. Okay. So I thought of other alternatives to get the paycheck protection because everybody stayed on payroll even though our revenues and everything are down, we've continued to pay our staff. Are you actually losing money yet or are your revenues just down? I mean loss of profit, negative profit. Yeah, probably not quite negative but

not far from it so you're you're around break even okay have you all and you're in florida so you started reopening right yeah uh they never closed pawn shops in florida they uh deem this uh uh financial services oh okay so you're essential okay okay so but so that's why your revenue's off but it's not gone. Okay, that makes sense. But as Florida has begun to reopen, has your customer base started to come back? Slowly, yes. Right now, the government...

So you think you're on the upswing, not the bottom? No, I don't. Probably in the middle, at least from a retail standpoint. Lots of loan redemptions because the government's spraying around so much free money. Yeah, yeah. So my loan balance is way, way down. Yeah, but that helps your cash position, yeah. I'd like to know a little bit about your war chest.

I mean, what do you have in terms of retained earnings in the business or personally and your ability to not pay yourself for a while? I mean, can you make it a few more weeks? Yeah, easily. Okay, so don't take the loan. You don't need the loan. No, I don't need it. Right, okay.

I mean, from what I understand, if you're continuing to pay your employees whether you need it or not uh it's still forgivable if they don't screw around with it it's a 2300 page document and uh last time i checked they promised to forgive student loans in certain scenarios too but they haven't and if you haven't dealt with the sba they're the dmv of the federal government they are screwed up delayed incompetent bunch of characters and the last thing i want is a loan i've been advising people not to take these loans under any circumstances in your situation it doesn't even hurt you to not take it you're going to be just fine you've you know you got smacked in the face but it's not going to cause you to close if you miss out on this loan i wouldn't do it i wouldn't step in the bear trap man yeah the way you said it kirk you said i don't need it in the rest of that sentence but you want it well he wants the free money if it's forgiven but he

doesn't need it and that's what we got to make make our decisions on right now. It's not free money. I mean, everybody's saying – There is no such thing as free money. I get that. But down the road, my taxes are going to go up. My everything is going to go up, even if I don't need it now. In the future, and as revenues continue to go down – Well, your taxes are going to go down because you've got some write-offs under the CARE Act that you haven't even found yet because you haven't gone to your tax preparer. I spent two and a half hours looking at the increased write-offs we've got this morning. It's incredible how much my tax bill went down this year because of the CARE Act.

There's stuff in there I didn't even know was in there. I've been with my tax guy all morning, which is a dadgum joy. But it was a joy because I was actually making money in this conversation. One of the few times I met with him that was fun. Well, here's the thing. Kirk's competitive, and I'm competitive. dadgum joy but uh but it was a joy because i was actually making money in this conversation one of the few times i met with him that was fun well here's the thing kirk's competitive and i'm competitive and i and i respect you know you start the year with a goal and you want to do anything you can to continue to hit that and it's okay if this isn't your best year ever you know it's it's okay that you had a little disruption and you're getting back on your feet but don't do something

stupid just to hit the goal no matter what because you want to compete make sure that you do it's going to be a rough year and then next year is going to be better and you're going to be back on the trajectory that you were pretty soon when everything bounces back hurt you got out of debt and you don't have a credit score because you didn't like loans and now you're struggling and twisting in the wind trying to figure out a way to get a loan. I understand it has forgiveness provisions, but I got to tell you, it's going to be problems. And there's already been articles in the Wall Street Journal about the problems. There's already been articles in Forbes about the problems. They're starting to pop up. I was the only one out there saying for people not to take these loans.

And now it's starting to be cool to tell people to not take these loans. But anytime it has the word loan in the sentence, you call Dave Ramsey, you're going to get the same answer, even if it has forgiveness provisions. Student loans have forgiveness provisions, but the word loan is in the sentence. And I'm just not going to go there. Life is too short for me to be screwing around with a barrel of snakes and then wonder how to not get bit and that's that's the problem you can do what you want to do kirk but um our advice is don't take the ppp loans to anyone in

your case you don't even need it you're just looking at it as quote unquote free money and when you dispute the phrase or whatever that doesn't't matter. But it's, you know, you don't have to pay it back. You can call it whatever you want to call it if you meet the guidelines, if they don't change the guidelines, if they don't screw around with this whole thing. And there's too many ifs, and the word alone is in the sentence. I'm never going back. There's not enough money on the planet to get me to step up into that noose and go, please don't drop the trap door.

Please don't drop the trap door please don't drop the trap door i'm not doing that steven is with us in idaho steven how can we help yeah so i've got a small lawn care company that you know when i'm saying small business i'm looking at maybe grossing 30 000 this year but i mean that's just a side job. More so, my daughter says to me one day, Dad, I want a job. I got an idea. So anyway, I'm in a growth-pain position where I'm working out of a 93 Toyota pickup truck, two-wheel drive, tiny little truck.

Well, now I'm to the point where it's not capable of doing the job anymore. I need to upgrade to a three-quarter ton truck, but I don't have money up front right now to buy it. That means you don't need to upgrade.

You make $30,000 on the whole business. You can't afford much of a truck with a business doing that well like i said this is a side job this is i know it's just more keeping my i know but the basis on which you would make the decision to buy a piece of equipment is the the top line and the bottom line of the business which does not support much equipment purchases because it's not making much why do you need the bigger truck be specific it's having trouble hauling the lawnmowers it's breaking down well it's it's i've uh the truck hasn't broken down yet but i'm

bottoming i'm bottoming out the suspension uh because we're hauling out so much grass because what will that truck sell for? That truck? Oh, I was going to keep it for other side jobs. So that's why I was looking for an additional truck because it gets good gas miles, it can haul light loads, and take me to small side jobs. Okay, go start doing those small side jobs now and use that money to buy your other truck.

I don't know what your truck's worth, but if it's worth it, if you can sell it for $10,000 and get a truck for $12,000 and put $2,000 more into the situation, I'm okay with that if you're making $30,000. But if you want to justify this because you've got a side business to go buy an $80,000 truck just because. Go into debt to buy a truck, period. No, no, no, no. Don't do that, man.

You're going to regret it. You're going to look up and go, the truck is, the tail is wagging the dog. The truck is the business. Organically grow your cash and cash flow your equipment. Organically grow your cash means use your profits only to grow. If this other truck will do side jobs, add those side jobs to it. Bottom it out. Drive it a little while.

Let's get the money together and buy you another truck. Or sell that truck and get you another truck. Any one of them doesn't matter. That puts an Entree Leadership Theme Hour in the books. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. In the middle of these uncertain times, Ramsey Solutions wants to give you some hope. For the very first time ever, we're giving you Financial Peace University free for 14 days. Go to DaveRamsey.com slash hope so you can watch

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