The Ramsey Show - App - Why It's Risky to Go Into Debt for Grad School (Hour 3)

Episode Date: June 12, 2018

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🎵 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Dave Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I am Dave Ramsey, your host. You jump in, we'll talk about your life and your money. It is a free call at 888-825-5225 that's 888-825-5225 cheryl is with us to start off this hour in new orleans hi cheryl how are you i'm doing great today good okay my question i'm 62 years old a widow widow, and I have two properties. One is a rental and the other one is something I purchased about five years ago, about three and a half hours from New Orleans

that I'm living in. My question is, the rental has helped me as far as tax break. So I have some money and I'm wondering if I should put the money on the rental and pay that on that principal or should I put it toward the house that I feel that I'll be living in. And what is your home? What's the balance on your home? The home in the rental property balance is about $110,000. The rental is $110,000? $110,000. Okay. And my new home is about $250,000. Okay.

And how much money have you got? I have about, in my savings, I have maybe about close to $60,000. And I'm trying to decide what to do with it. Okay. Do you have a retirement nest egg as well? Yes, I do. I have a nice 401K. I've been working since 79 as a professional.

Good for you. My 401K is good. How much is in it? I don't have any debt. How much is in your 401? I rolled over one and two. What would be the total nest egg in retirement? Right now

I'm at $600,000. Good for you. Way to go kiddo. Great job. And are you retired? No and that was really opening this up because for the first time in my life I'm realizing that after I received that paper from

Social Security how much I could get at 62 and how much I can get at 66. And so I'm getting tired. I'm getting tired. What are you making? I'm making $130. Okay. Wow, you're doing great. What do you do for a living?

I'm a pharmacist. Good for you. Well done. Well, goodness, you've done very, very well. So I guess where you want to ask yourself is, where do you want to be financially with these two houses when you're 70? My goal would be for you to be debt-free by then, eight years, right? More sooner.

But, I mean, when you kick your feet up, for sure, and you walk away from the 130 income and you retire and i'm just going to call that 70 i don't care if it's 63 it doesn't matter to me but at some point down the road whether you're working or not sooner rather than later we want both of these paid for that would be my goal because that stabilizes everything for you okay now you got 60 you need to keep an emergency fund do you have a rainy day fund in addition to the 60 or is that included in the 60 nothing other than my full one no okay then i would set probably 20 aside anyway for your emergency fund and so that leaves us really 40 to play with because we don't want to mess with your rainy day fund okay okay so we got 40 000 now when you're 70 and everything's paid for you are living where um about three and a half hours from now i'm new audience louisiana where

are you alexandria louisiana i don't know if anybody know where that is i do yeah nice area okay and that's where you want to stay for retirement? Not really sure. I didn't know I was going to even come this way. Okay. All right. Well, I mean. In other words, I got this.

Because that affects whether you want to just, you know, how much you want to strain to pay something off and whether or not you want to keep a rental. Because you probably, let's pretend you're 70 and later on you're 78 and you have a rental three and a half hours away that doesn't sound like fun anymore no as you get older you know and so i want my rentals if i'm going to own them and i love rentals i've got a bunch of them personally okay but i want them all close by so i don't know where close by is when we hit to your retirement if you quit my children my

children are still there i'm from new orleans i purchased that home after katrina okay so you might move that you might move back that way if you retired i don't plan to go back okay all right even though the kids are there okay that's fine i don't care where you back. Okay. All right. Even though the kids are there. Okay. That's fine. I don't care where you're going to end up, but you just kind of need to think through that because that dictates how hard you want to fight to keep this rental. Mm-hmm. And I don't want you in your late 70s managing a rental three and a half hours away. Do you?

Nope. Okay. So I'm probably selling that puppy if I'm not going back there. Okay, that was my other thought. Yeah, and if I'm going to buy other rentals, which wouldn't be a bad thing, I'm going to buy them in the area I'm going to end up in. Okay. And if that's Alexandria, fine.

Okay, so buy some rentals around you. So what is that rental worth? Let's just say the balance on it is about $110,000. Yeah, what's it worth? I really don't know. Well, if you're going to guess, $150,000? I would think so, yes. Okay.

Matter of fact, I tried to reach my realtor the last time I was there about three weeks ago to see how things are selling in the area. Nothing's on fire for this equation, but probably in the next two years, as a lease comes up or something, I'm going to sell that. I'm going to take that money and the $40,000, and I'm going to pay it on the house in Alexandria. If you then sell the house in Alexandria andandria and you get it paid off and you then sell it and move to a different property somewhere of course they'll give you a check at the closing so you're not going to lose the money you pay down on it and i'm probably going to do away with the rental um okay in the next um you know 18 24 months however the market moves and

however your leases come up and that kind of stuff. Again, no panic, but it's just not a good – I'm thinking long-term what gets me to where I want to go. And I'm establishing I wouldn't suggest nor would I want personally to own a rental three and a half hours away in my mid to late 70s. And so I'm thinking, where do I want to go? And, you know, when you start talking about, okay, in five years when I retire, I'm going to move to X or Y, or I'm going to stay in Alexandria, or I'm going to work till I'm 70, or I'm going to whatever, just kind of think that through. And then you just develop your plan and you execute on that. And you end up with a paid for property because you're making good money. You end up with a paid for property that you live in, which stabilizes your retirement years big time. And then if you want to buy some rentals, in addition to that, you do it with cash

that you save up either out of your income or you use some of your 401K money. You can get to it without penalty at this stage. You'll just pay some taxes on whatever you pull out. But I think when you clearly identify where you want to go, it'll clear up some of these questions for you. So my answer is I would use the $40,000 on your house in Alexandria today, and I would look at moving the rental out in the next 18 to 24 months, and then I would begin to pay aggressively on the house in Alexandria out of your fabulous income until you decide to retire.

And then if you move, you'll take the money with you because you'll sell that house. That'd be my plan. Thanks for calling in. Honored to have you as a listener. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Are high health care costs getting you down? Are you confused trying to navigate your options? Do you wish you could find an affordable, biblical solution to your health care costs? Based on New Testament principles, Christian Health Care Ministries, or CHM, helps Christian families, churches, and ministries join together as the body of Christ

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We're glad you are here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Jennifer is with us in Baltimore. Hi, Jennifer. How are you? Hey, Dave. I'm great. Thanks so much for taking my call.

Sure. What's up? Well, we have been very intentional thanks to your advice, and I just want to make sure that we continue in that path. We're on baby step six, and we know that we're supposed to be able to let off the reins, but we feel that we can't because we don't like the house that we're in, and we really feel stuck, and we've been feeling like we didn't like the house that we're in and we really feel stuck and we've

been feeling like we didn't know what to do and we don't like the location we're in. So what we would like to do is sell our home and downsize to an apartment and with that purchase a lot of property that we have been keeping an eye on, but we know we wouldn't be able to do that in our current home. What will the property cost? $125,000 to $30,000, we're thinking. Okay, and you have that kind of equity in your current home? If we sold our home, we would be able to put down about $60,000 to $70,000 on the lot,

and we're debt-free otherwise. Okay. And we have about... And what price range home would you build on the lot then? Well, $300,000, we're thinking. But we would save up for that while we were renting. The whole $300,000, we're thinking. But we would save up for that while we were renting. The whole $300,000? Or at least most of it, yes.

What is your household income? $150,000. Okay. And, well, you know our rule of thumb is don't have a house payment that is more than a fourth of your take-home pay on a 15-year fixed-rate mortgage. Okay? Right.

Now, if you can do that by taking out a construction loan, which would encompass the balance of your house. Okay, let's say you sold your house, you bought the land, you owe $60,000 on the land, the land's worth $125,000, right? Right. Okay. And then you take out a construction loan for $300,000. Actually, it would be $360,000 because they have to pay off the first. Construction loans don't take a second mortgage. Okay.

That $360,000 builds your $300,000 house on this property then, right? If you were to do that, would the payment then on your final mortgage of $360,000 after the house is completed, a permanent mortgage would take out the construction loan. So you'd have a loan balance of around $350,000 or so. I'm sorry, $350,000, $360,000. Would that payment be more than a fourth of your take-home pay on a 15-year fixed? It should be close. Right, but we would definitely throw a big chunk down while we were saving up while renting.

Yeah, what I was saying was go ahead and do the deal and go ahead and start building while you're renting if you can execute all of that and the payment is no more than a fourth of your take-home pay. If not, you'll have to step back and, you know, build up savings while you're paying payments on the $60,000. A raw land deal, is this a lot or is it some acreage? It is about two acres. Okay.

And they don't have any contingency on how long you have to start building immediately or anything. Okay. All right. Well, you know, do some research, and let's make sure the value of the land is there and so forth. Very seldom can you get a bank loan for a lot without 50% down. Okay. They're going to require a strong down payment on that, and it sounds like that's about where you are. Okay. When you can accomplish that or less, then I would begin building. And that's going to be relative to your income and your down payment.

And that's what you're looking for. So good question. Thank you for joining us. Stacy's with us in Salt Lake City. Hi, Stacy. How are you? Hi. I'm good.

Good. What's up? I am wondering, so I'm thinking of, I've already gotten accepted to pharmacy school, put in my $1,000 seat deposit, but I'm starting to get cold feet because of the tuition, which is $52,000 a year. It's a three-year program. And then to work in a hospital, it's a one-year minimum residency, where it's half pay. So I'll be graduating with a minimum of $160,000 in debt. I'm debating maybe of just pulling out and switching career paths because of the debt. I'm thinking maybe physician's assistants.

I think I would like both careers. Pharmacists get paid more, but I'm thinking physician assistant. It's a two-and-a-half year, 27 months roughly. It's about $70,000 to $100,000 for the two years, two-and-a-half years. They make less money, but they don't have a residency, and it's less time in school. What would you recommend? Well, I don't recommend borrowing money, so that's kind of my baseline. I can't go to grad school.

I don't have roughly $70,000 to $100,000. Well, it's not as absurd as it sounds. It leaves you with the option of looking with some of the pharmacy companies out there, the CVSs and the Walgreens, and seeing if they have any programs, because they are always in recruiting mode. And since they're in recruiting mode, do they have anything where they pick up part of or all of the cost and in return you agree to serve them for so many years the same thing with pas uh are there some hospital companies and or drug companies that have scholarships available um i talked to a guy the last week who got his veterinarian degree, DVM, which is just as expensive

and pays about the same coming out, and basically did that off of industry scholarships. There were people around the industry that were supporting, you know, the large animal, which is what he was doing in his case. You're kind of dealing with a large animal to a human. So, you know, human so um you know but the uh uh you know i'm going to poke around i'm going to find some other ways through the the hospital corporations that are out there the the drug companies that are out there and the pharmacy companies that are out there and and keep poking around until i find something that

uh enables me to go through this because that's just an untenable amount of debt. I work with these people all the time. And here's the thing. You know that not everybody that goes to pharmacy school graduates and not everybody that goes to PA school passes their boards? Not everybody. And so you're just not guaranteed that this is all going to turn out rosy.

If it worked out where you make what that industry makes and you live on nothing when you come out for several years yeah you can work your way through it but that's only if everything works out which is by the way the only time that debt works is when everything works out and in life everything seldom works out. You know, I talked to a lady not long ago who had just finished her MD and had a ton of debt in regarding that, and her first child then had special needs, and she really felt strongly that she should come home and be with that child. But she's sitting there with $250,000 in debt to become an MD

because that's the only way you can do it. You can't go to grad school without it, which gets people in a world of hurt, darling. And so I can't recommend you do that. I'm going to recommend a third option. Regardless of which direction you go, the third option takes you to solving this debt issue, whichever one of these you go with. And I really, it doesn't matter to me.

Both of those are great career paths. And both of those, if you follow all the way through, pass all the tests, the bars and everything, then you're, you know, then obviously you're going to have the income and it'll work out. But the problem is those short circuits that come along in life every so often. And, you know, that's when, if everything goes okay, things that aren't okay, you can work out. You can work it out. But if everything doesn't go okay, that's when you're in trouble.

Warren Buffett says that when the tide goes out, that's when you can tell who is skinny dipping. You know, when life doesn't work right, that's when you have a problem. And it exposes the weakness of these theories that people have, particularly around the student loan issue. So I know that's a hard line to take, and it's probably not comfortable to you because you're looking at doing this a normal way. But I wouldn't be normal. Normal pretty much sucks out there. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Folks, the real estate market is on fire all over the country. If you're looking to buy a home and you need a mortgage,

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only we keep our teeth in. Caleb is with us. Caleb's in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Hi, Caleb. How are you? Hello, Dave. Thank you for taking my call. Sure.

I just wanted to let you know I just discovered you today. Oh, my goodness. Last night, I was talking to my fiance, and I told her I wanted to kind of get a grip on my finances and look towards retirement, and I discovered you online today. Wow. And I was watching several videos, and I had heard people discuss Roth IRAs. Mm-hmm. Retirement. I was going to ask, how would you suggest going about getting a Roth IRA?

Would you do it online, or would you try to find someone in your area? I would find someone in your area. And when you're picking someone to help you with any money subject, insurance, real estate, mortgages, investing for your Roth IRA, you're always looking for someone that has the heart of a teacher, not the heart of a salesman. About 80%, 85% of the people in most of those businesses are just salesmen. 15% or 20% of them have that heart of a teacher,

which means they have a long-term view of their customers. And so the real estate agent knows if they take really good care of you, your dad will buy a house from them, your brother will buy a house from them, you'll buy your next house from them, and they'll be in business forever. But the salesman just wants to make a sale today. And so taking good care of you means you actually understand what the flip you're doing, and you're not doing it because I said to or because some guy in a suit in an office said to, you know. And so your job is to not invest in anything you don't understand, and when you're putting money people in your corner, they need to have that heart of a teacher. You'll know they have that if you leave the room or leave the meeting

knowing something that you didn't know before the meeting you were taught. So a Roth IRA, I suggest, and what I personally put mine in, and I've told people to do this for 25 years here on this radio show, is to put it into good mutual funds. And I spread my investing in retirement across four types of mutual funds, growth funds, growth and income funds, progressive growth funds, and international funds. And I look for funds that have at least a 10-year track record.

I want to see how they've performed over a long period of time, not the latest flash in the pan. I'm a long-term investor. And when you're buying a Roth IRA at your age, you're a long-term investor. Money's going to be in there for decades. It's not going to be in there for 20 minutes. So what happened in the last three months doesn't matter. It matters, but it doesn't matter much. What happened in the last 15 years is what matters with that fund.

And so I'm looking for funds that have outperformed the market in general. And the bellwether for the market in general, the baseline, is the Standard & Poor 500, the S&P 500 index. And so you pick out mutual funds that have outperformed that over a long period of time, and you spread it across four types. And I like mutual funds because they've got great long-term track records i've made really good money and a lot of the millionaires i talked to and i've talked to thousands of them over the years uh the vast majority of them have made millions by investing in their roth 401k

the roth ira or their 401k a lot of those guys and gals started before there was a Roth, but you fill up that Roth IRA, both of you, and you fill up your 401ks, you're going to be very wealthy if you do exactly what I'm talking about. But it's slow and steady, and there's nothing cool to talk about with your golfing buddy. It's just you're the tortoise, you're not the hare, and that's the way you get at it. If you want to sit down with somebody like that, Caleb, we have – I'm not in the mutual fund business. I don't sell mutual funds, so I don't care what you buy. It's up to you. I'm a teacher.

But the people we endorse for that product line are called SmartVestor Pros. And the way you find the one in your neighborhood that has the heart of a teacher, otherwise we wouldn't be endorsing them, is you just click on SmartVestor at DaveRamsey.com. Put in, like, your name and address and that kind of stuff, and it'll drop down a list of the people in your neighborhood. You can select one of those, or they'll get in touch with you. You sit down with them, and you decide. You're interviewing them, and the way they pass the interview and get hired is you have to come away feeling not like you were slimed, but feeling like you learned something and this is a good solid person.

They're not desperate to make one little sale, and they have a long-term mentality on how we're going to be together a long time. You will do a lot better with that kind of person in your corner than you will just out there buying mutual funds on your own. You'll pick better funds, and you'll stay in the market. When the market goes crazy, they'll talk you off the roof and say, just stay in. Just ride the roller coaster. Just ride it. You know, the Dow Jones Industrial is dropping today, and so what?

It doesn't matter. It means it's time to buy. I want to buy while it's low. I don't want to jump off the roof and that kind of stuff. So you just think it through, and you have somebody in your corner to talk to you and teach you about it as you go along. And, you know, my personal guy is a personal friend. I mean, we like hanging out at the lake together and stuff.

I mean, you know, they become part of your life because they're good people, and that's what you want around you. So thank you for calling in today, Caleb, and I'm honored to have you as a new listener, sir. Dustin is with us in South Bend, Indiana. Hi, Dustin. How are you? Good, and yourself, Dave? Better than I deserve.

What's up? So I'm calling in today. I'm asking, I'm getting ready to become a first-time home buyer. Cool. And I want to know what I should be looking for as far as what kind of limit on a loan I should be looking for for a house. Okay. I would never take out more than a 15-year fixed. Right. And I would never take out a than a 15-year fixed, and I would never take out a loan where the payment is more than a fourth of your take-home pay. Now, you can qualify for twice that much house if you put it on an adjustable rate 30-year. Sure.

They'll loan you enough money to bankrupt you. Right, enough to kill you with credit. Exactly, if you let them. And so my goal is to just buy a little bit more conservative house. It's not going to be a bad house by any stretch of the imagination, but more conservative and get the stupid thing paid

off. A lot of people think they're going to have a mortgage their whole life, but most people that build wealth don't. We're seeing people doing the stuff we're doing, paying off their homes in seven, eight years. They put it on a 15, but when they don't have any other bills and they get out of debt and we're seeing people doing the stuff we're doing, paying off their homes in seven, eight years. They put it on a 15, but when they don't have any other bills and they get out of debt and they're working a plan, you know, they're living on a budget using the EveryDollar app

and that kind of stuff, they're reaching over and knocking on that mortgage every so often, and they look up and, dang, man, we just paid this thing off. You don't have a mortgage? I mean, you've become wealthy so fast. It is unbelievable. And then you start to realize how rich we've been making these banks all these years, all of us. And you know that if you drive around. I mean, what are those tall buildings in the skyline?

Well, guess what? Santa Claus didn't build them. Those would be called banks and life insurance companies. Somebody must have given them some money. Well, that would be you and me. And so I want to get out of that business as fast as I can. That's why we think that way. Good question.

Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You jump in. We'll talk about your life, your money. Jan follows me on Facebook.com slash Dave Ramsey. Do you have a book you'd recommend for a late teen or young adult who needs to learn to budget? The process book that we have, the step-by-step baby steps that obviously we're best known for is the Total Money Makeover. It sold about 6 million copies.

My second best-selling book is Financial Peace, which was my first book. And it sold about 3 million copies. Now, Financial Peace is what to do. And so there's really good budgeting information in Financial Peace and budget forms in the back of it and everything else. And the Total Money Makeover is like how to do it. It's the step-by-step plan, the clear path from where you are to winning. But the other one is almost like your little textbook, if you will, your primer. And then the Total Money Makeover is how to do it.

And I think that's why Total Money Makeover has been more popular is because it's how to do it. Now, it's got the budget forms in the back, too. And you can take a young adult and just drop them onto EveryDollar and let them watch some of Rachel's videos on how to do a budget. And you'll do fine with that without a book, even. And EveryDollar.com, have them put the app in. It's free. And you'd be amazed what they'll learn as a young teen on that. This is the Dave Ramsey Show.

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Where there is no vision, the people perish. But he that keepeth the law, happy is he. Sam Walton said, capital isn't scarce, vision is. Maggie is with us in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Hi, Maggie, how are you? I'm good, Dave, how are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I have a question. My husband and I are on baby step number two. We've paid off about $11,000 so far and have $59,000 more to go.

We're trying to decide on whether or not keeping our truck is a good idea. It's about $35,000 that we owe left still in it. And we could sell it for about $33,000. So we're only upside down two. And what's your household income? Last year, we made about $130,000. And what's the other car worth? About $6,000. Okay. And that's paid off. Okay, good. And how long did it take you to pay off the $11,000? A lot of that was helped with

our tax refund, which we've kind of cleared up so we're not going to have a tax refund next year. So are you just kind of starting the process now? Yeah, we're just starting. We started in January. Okay. All right. Well, I want you to get a lot more serious about your debt reduction if you're going to keep the truck. Here's the rule of thumb we use, and this will keep you pretty close to straight and true.

Number one, you don't want to own vehicles, all of them added together, that equals more than half your annual income because vehicles go down in value. That's anything with a motor. For that matter, even if it doesn't have a motor, if it hooks to the back of a vehicle like a travel trailer, everything goes down in value like that, right? So we don't want more than half our annual income tied up in that. You have not violated that, right? So we don't want more than half our annual income tied up in that. You have not violated that, okay, because you're at about $40,000 roughly in vehicles, and your household income is $110,000, right?

$130,000. $130,000, I'm sorry. So you're under half. So you're fine on that rule of thumb. The second rule of thumb is can you be debt-free other than your home, and are you willing to cut things deep enough to be debt-free other than your home in two years? I think you should be able to do that. Yeah.

If you're not willing to do that, you need to sell the truck. Okay. Yeah, we want to be debt-free, including the house, before we're 30. I'm not talking about the house. I'm talking about other than the house, be debt-free inside of two years. How old are you? 26. Okay, so you want to be 100% debt-free house and everything in four years.

Yeah. And how much do you owe on your home? 110. Okay. Plus, you said 60, right? Yeah, we took out an annuity loan for the down payment of the house, which was not smart looking back. So we have $110,000 plus $60,000 is $170,000,

and you make $130,000 and you want to do that in four years. That's probably doable, actually. Yeah. If you want to speed it up or insure it further, you sell the truck. It's just a truck. I mean, you can get another one. There's a truck on every corner. Yeah. If you want to speed it up or insure it further, you sell the truck. It's just a truck. I mean, you can get another one. There's a truck on every corner. Yeah.

And listening to you the other day, we have the stupid $700 truck payment. Yeah. Well, I mean, the difference is you make $130, okay? And so if you love this truck and you want to fight for it and push through and get $170,000 paid off instead of $130,000 paid off in four years, and the difference that means in your lifestyle, making $130,000, either one is doable mathematically. But it's just a matter of you're going to have no life during that period of time. And do you want to extend that by the cost of that truck? You're going to go turn around and buy a truck later sometime anyway with cash.

So either way is okay with me. But you just kind of got to look at that. None of the measures I use demand that you sell the truck. Okay. It's just a matter of what's important to you guys. And it sounds like you've got some pretty cool, fairly aggressive goals, and I like them. It'd be pretty neat to have a paid-for everything by the time you're 30. I like that.

That's a neat way of looking at things. That's pretty cool. And if giving up the truck is an insurance policy to make sure that happens, and we'll get a truck later after everything's paid off, and we're going to drive like no one else, so later we can's paid off and you know we're going to drive like no one else so later we can drive like no one else we're going to live like no one else so later we can live and give like no one else then you know that that that it falls right into that but there's nothing that says that a 35 000 truck is stupid when you make 130 it's not as long as it's paid for and you got to or and or

you have a plan to get it paid off really fast which is what i'm outlining for you kristin is in kansas city hi kristin how are you i'm good dave how are you better than i deserve what's up um okay i have some questions for you um my husband is currently on suspension from his job and we don't know if he's going to be able to keep it or not. We're kind of in the dark right now. Why is he on suspension? With one of his machines, I guess there was like a sensor that got moved, and so they're pending an investigation.

They're trying to decide what to do, I guess. They really haven't told us very much. Okay. So he's in manufacturing? Yes, yeah, he is. He's in manufacturing right now. And this is like a union dispute of some kind? He's not union, I don't think.

Okay. So. But he's thinking about leaving. He's kind of tired of don't think. Okay. All right. But he's thinking about leaving. He's kind of tired of all this crap. Yeah. But the problem is he doesn't have a college education. He does have experience in management and law enforcement and manufacturing, but he doesn't have a college degree.

He doesn't have a college degree. Yeah, but where he's working right now, he making really good money what's he make but then um he he'll he'll probably make 60 000 this year a lot of people that don't have college degrees make 60 yeah and so i just but then i i do have a college degree but i stay home now um because we adopted three kids and then we got pregnant two months later so we added four kids to our family in a year. So I stay home and I homeschool, but I have a college degree and I have experience in banking and in business, and so I just kind of don't know what to do. Like if I should go back into the workforce, I don't know.

No? You don't want to? Yeah, not really. Okay. Then we just got to get him a career track, that's all. Okay. I think you're putting too much value on a college degree. Yeah, not really. Okay. Then we just got to get him a career track. That's all. Okay. I think you're putting too much value on a college degree. Yeah, maybe. I believe in education, but the way you're throwing it around in this conversation, you act like it's a meal ticket, and it's not. There's lots of people that have quality experiences in the marketplace that make in excess of $100,000 that don't have college degrees.

Lots of them. So what does he want to do? What's he want to be doing in five years what's he want to be doing in 10 years and that's going to make him 60 80 100 000 over that period of time and what are the steps to get him there he may need to pick up a class of certification in x or y i don't know uh or he may need to learn to package his experiences better when he's looking for something and saying maybe he needs to open his own business. I don't know. Yeah.

But it sounds like you guys have been out of school 15 years, 10 years. Am I right? Yeah. We're both 32. Yeah. He's got enough experience in the marketplace now that he should be able to apply that some way or another and create an income. Okay.

I don't think he's captive to this weird manufacturing situation where they suspend you over a sensor being moved. Yeah. That sounds kind of bizarre. Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. I don't know. It's like they're looking for an excuse to find somebody not working or something.

I don't know. Right. Yeah, and he's a hard worker. I mean, he does more production than most other guys. I wasn't talking about him. I was talking about them. Yeah. Because, I he's a hard worker. I mean, he does more production than most other guys. I wasn't talking about him. I was talking about them. Yeah. Because, I mean, just a censor?

I mean, that's just, I don't know. I don't know what's going on here. But anyway, I would say, okay, what do I want to be when I'm 42? I'm 32. What do I want to be when I'm 42? And what are the steps to get there? This is the beautiful thing about America. It's a free country.

And you can just choose to go get you some. You know, what do I want to be? And what are the steps to get there? What do I want to be? And what are the steps to get there? And how do I feed my family in that interim time? Do we take a step back to take 10 forward? Or do we just take 10 forward because we've been not stepping like we should have stepped?

That's the kind of thing you start asking yourself. Hold on. I'm going to have Kelly send you a book for him called Start. Because I think he's ready to start again. It's a good thing to start again. It's an encore. Take a bow. That puts this hour of the Dave Ramsey Show in the books.

We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace. And that's to walk daily with the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus. Hey, it's Kelly, Dave's phone screener. We finished 2017 with a bang as the fourth most downloaded podcast of the year. Thanks to all of you for listening

and helping us spread the word. Hey, business leaders, are you hiring, posting your position to job sites, and waiting and waiting and waiting for the right people to see? Well, you need ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter knew there was a smarter way, so they built a platform that finds the right job candidates for you. ZipRecruiter learns there was a smarter way, so they built a platform that finds the right job candidates for you. ZipRecruiter learns what you're looking for, identifies people with the right experience, and invites them to apply to your job. These invitations have revolutionized how you find your next hire.

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