The Ramsey Show - App - Why Parent Plus Loans Are a Bad Idea (Hour 2)

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

Dave Ramsey & George Kamel discuss: Are land leases a good idea, Paying off a parent plus loan with a 401K, What to do after Baby Step 7, Is a career change a good idea.    Want a plan for your money? Find out where to start: https://bit.ly/3nInETX Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts: https://bit.ly/3GxiXm6

🎵 Hi, from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where debt is dumb, cash is king, and the paid-off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Campbell. Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Bob is in Camden, New Jersey to start off this hour. Hey, Bob, how are you? Doing pretty well, Dave. How about yourself?

Better than I deserve deserve how can i help well i wanted to get your take on the idea of purchasing a home with a land lease agreement as being sort of a middle of the road solution between renting and then traditional home ownership so what is the structure of the deal? So basically, I would be able to purchase a home which would be a decent quality smaller home, but two bedrooms, one bathroom for about $100,000, which I could immediately pay most, if not the entire price and essentially have no mortgage. However, I would have to pay approximately $800 a month on the land lease agreement. So it would effectively be a giant HLA agreement. And I see that as a middle of the road solution between continuing to rent and paying

$1,500 to $2,000 a month in rent, which I don't really want to do, or at the same time, buying a traditional home in South Jersey, which unfortunately, the average nice home in South Jersey these days, you're looking at $400,000, which would take on all kinds of debt, and I'm a big believer in the debt is dumb mentality. So being a centrist kind of guy that tries to find answers in the middle, I was wondering if the land lease agreement might be a happy medium for me. How long is the land lease? I don't know offhand.

I want to say as far as I know it would be an indefinite agreement. It can't be, Bob. It has to have a cutoff. If it's approaching infinity, it would be a 50-year, but a lease has to have an end date or it's not a valid contract in any state. Gotcha. I would have to look into that more deeply. I appreciate you bringing up that point.

If it is a short lease, a short-term lease, 100% no. Okay? If it's a long-term lease, you can do it, and the downside is it's almost impossible for a buyer to buy this from you with traditional financing. FHA, VA, Fannie Mae will not write a mortgage on this deal. So your pool of buyers, when you get ready to sell, is going to be small. Thus, you're not going to get much appreciation. Okay.

The long-term land lease is almost never used in a residential setting. It's typically used in a commercial setting. And it's not unusual at all to do like a built-to-suit with a long-term land lease and, you know, a 25-year lease or a 30-year lease. And during that time, the investor that owns the property, so you don't own the property because the dirt is not yours. You're not purchasing a house. You're renting ground and putting a house on someone else's ground. And that's the legal position you're putting yourself in.

So, you know, what I would do is if I were you, I'm going to continue to investigate it because it's kind of an interesting, different concept and try to continue to poke holes in it. Having done 3,000 real estate deals in my life, including a couple of them with 50-year leases on commercial deals. I would not do this deal because I don't think it's got a good upside resale on the back end, even if it's the best of situations. Because it's such a weird deal, it's so unusual that it's going to be hard to get financing, hard to get buyers off the back end.

And anytime you have a limited pool of buyers off the back end, you're going to get limited appreciation. And it's going to make you wish you had just gone ahead and done the other regular traditional deal. Yeah. This sounds like it's better than rent to own, but it still has some risks involved because you don't fully own it. Well, it's approaching a condominium situation. I mean, with a condo, you don't technically own the dirt under your condo. You may not even own the – I mean, your condo might be sitting on someone else's condo. It could be a two-story. Well, my townhome, I don't own the dirt.

You don't own yours? Because the townhome is one giant structure. Okay. Then that's the same situation. It's a similar situation. Yeah, and so – but the difference is then that's a similar situation yeah and so but the the difference is that the that is a traditional deal it's not a lease uh in that that's a it's a condominium document um or in new york they they will use a different document called a co-op document but

it still works very similar to a condominium document but that that you can get permanent financing on yeah not that i want you can get permanent financing on. Not that I want you to get permanent financing, but you want to have something that can get financed when you get ready to sell it because that's going to limit your market. Otherwise, if cash buyers are your only buyer coming back in, you're not going to get much appreciation. It still sounds like this is kind of a shortcut.

I would just go ahead and save up a down payment, do traditional financing on a home in South Jersey. I would. Get 20% or 15% on a $400,000 house and do it that way. But I also couldn't resist investigating it further just because I always like getting into weird deals and figuring out what's going on. Finding the holes. Raul's with us in San Francisco. Hey, Raul, what's up?

Hey, good afternoon or good morning here from beautiful California, where the weather's always nice and the politics is always a poop storm here. That's a great tagline. How can we help today, sir? Well, here we go. My wife and I discovered you guys back in November of last year, and we're on baby step two. And we sat down, and I sat down. I sat down, and why? And I want to retire in five years. I'm going to be 60 next month.

And we've paid so far $40,000 in debt. Good. And we have the big kahuna, which is our parent loan plus, $200,000, that we're trying to figure out how to break that down. We've talked to the kids, two of them, that we paid college, and we told them that we were going to help them out, but this was part of their loan to pay for their college. So trying to figure out what percentage they're going to buy in

and trying to see where they're at in their lives. I have a mortgage. I have a, you know, we owe about $300,000, and the value of the house is about $760,000. Before I run out of time, Raul, what's your question? Yeah. So I'm thinking of does it make sense to maybe pay off balance of the parent loan plus with my 401k since I'm 60 and then re-input that through my 401k and retirement account. How much you got in the 401k? $640,000. What's your household income? $150,000 a year.

Hmm. If the kids aren't paying any of it, I probably would. It's tough. Those are some high interest rate loans on the Parent Plus. And you've still got $400,000 left in your 401k when the smoke clears. You've got to pay taxes on it, obviously. No penalty, though. Yeah, what a mess.

I'm sorry. Hey, guys. George Camel here, and I'm so excited to tell you about the newest product from Ramsey. It's called Gazelle, and it's a digital banking experience that will help you spend and save the Ramsey way with banking services provided by Pathword NA. You'll get a single spending account with no monthly fees, and it's FDIC insured through Pathword NA. We're offering early access to our beta customers, so you can help us make it the best experience it can be. Just go to

ramseysolutions.com slash gazelle to sign up for the waitlist today. Well, there was a pandemic. There was a quarantine. There was the shutting down of people's incomes and factories producing anything and everything, and then all of the resulting economic crap that comes from that called inflation, probably heading into recession. The Fed decides to adjust interest rates up. Real estate market slows wild out there more than ever people need a sense of hope with their finances and maybe you're feeling kind of crazed out out there

maybe you're feeling like i don't have enough i can't get this done i don't know what i'm gonna do well we can show you how to get through these times and the good times as well uh there's only one set of principles that work in both good times and bad times and they're common sense biblical principles of finance uh things like get out of debt live on less than you make save oh well that'd be easier said than done, Dave. Have you not seen the price of gas? Yes, I just about passed out in the gas station parking lot the other day, filled up the Raptor, and I could have bought a house cheaper. Oh, my God. Have you ever filled up a Raptor?

No, I can't. How many gallons does that thing have? It's like more gallons than your car. I could do the math on it. It's just bizarre. It's definitely three numbers involved. I'll tell you that much. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. You know it's bad when you have to do, like, your card twice because the thing maxes and shuts off? Oh, that's right. And you ain't got a half a tank yet? I think it's got 125 max. Ouch. We're all feeling it, guys. And so Financial Peace University is how we show you how you should have hope.

We're going to show you how to get out of debt, actually control your money during these hard times and during good times, and win. The courses are taught by me and Rachel Cruz and Dr. John Deloney and George Campbell sitting here with me. Brand new videos all the way through this thing, and it is the best Financial Peace University we've ever done. Almost 10 million people have been through this class.

If you want to start Financial Peace University for free, check out all this new content. Visit ramsaysolutions.com. I know you can be scared. I know you can be overwhelmed, and I'm not making fun of you. I get it. That's very, very real. And so so check it out this is how you do it ramsay solutions.com slash fpu elsa is with us in delray beach florida hey elsa what's up

hey jay hey george i'm so excited to speak with you. And I'm excited in general. Cool. So the reason I'm calling is because I was recently catapulted into baby step seven. And I feel like I should know what to do, but I kind of feel a little paralyzed with the economy. So I have about $100,000 that I think I should be living with. And I just kind of want to be with you, I suppose, and just hear it out loud that she's been dealing with this money. Okay, how did you get catapulted?

So I was married, and now I'm not. And for good reasons. It was long overdue. And we owed a little bit on the primary residence, which I ended up keeping, and owed a little on a car. And we sold a home in our old, like, area that we lived in. And the net of everything just caused everything to get paid off. And then I netted $100,000 when everything was said and done.

Wow. Okay. How old are you? 44. Say again? 44. Okay. How old are you? I'm 44. Say again? 44. 44. What do you do for a living? I'm in advertising.

What do you make? 125. Good for you. Well done. Awesome. Okay. So you're 44, newly single, 100% debt-free. You make a hundred and some odd thousand bucks, and a house is paid for and everything, and you've got $100,000 in your pocket. Yes.

Wow. Good problem to have. Sounds like the future is bright to me. Where do I go? Do I put it in the market, like, you know, kind of a mutual fund kind of thing? I am, and I have a son who's 11. So I want to stay here for now because his schools and I want to keep the consistency there. So yeah, I am happy with the house. Great. You got anything saved for college yet? You started that? Yep. College stuff is being saved for, um, putting 15% in retirement. I have, um, some old IRAs, which I actually have,

um, with an investment pro that I got through, um, you know, the, um, um, you know, peace. And, um, you know, he actually ironically just called me and told me he was switching on brokerage houses and said, you know, he knew that this home was actually pending sale for a long time, that it was going to be sold. So I told him, I think your timing's perfect. And he's like, all right, cool. Like, let's, you know, set you up. We'll get your money market account and we can do this.

And then I'm just like nervous because just what they've just said, like we're going into a recession and we could be going into worse. When do you think you'll use the money, the $100,000? I don't. That's the thing. I don't have any. And I also. So you feel like you've got at least five years that you won't need it?

Probably. And I also have like once my budget is said and done, I should be netting about $3,000 to $4,000 a month that I can put away as well. My point is if you leave it alone five years if you look back at the history of the market uh 96 of the five-year periods in the market's history have made money right and so that means the market's on sale right now because it's down um now you've been through a lot personally. You're a newly single mom with an 11-year-old.

This mess you've just been through, the heart-wrenching anger, the heartbreak, the emotions. And now you're the other side of it, and there's this strange calm after the storm, which is also a little bit unsettling. All of that enters into the equation so if you put this hundred thousand in there because i'm comfortable with you doing that um and it goes down further if you're going to freak out mode because of your current the because of all the crap you've been through in the last 36 months, and you pull it out low, then that was a bad strategy, okay? So you've got to ask yourself, are you emotionally prepared to ride this market down a little further? If it goes down, if you are, and you're going to leave it alone five years,

I'm putting the money in the market with your SmartVestor Pro. Right. If you're not, that it alone five years, I'm putting the money in the market with your SmartVestor Pro. Right. If you're not, that's okay to say out loud. You know what? I'm at a vulnerable point right now because I've been through hell. And based on that, I don't really want to ride anything. I'm done with rides. Right.

I'm going to put it in a money market, and I don't even care if it makes money. Losing money scares me a lot more than making money or than not making money. Agreed. Elsa, how much do you have in savings outside of the $100,000? Nope, that's everything. Okay. Well, I want you to have a fully funded emergency fund, so let's park some of that. Because like you just mentioned, with the recession, if something happens to your job, you're going to have three to six months of expenses.

I'd probably lean towards six months since you're, you know, single income. And that'll make you feel real good about then putting the rest in the market, because you've got six months of expenses sitting there ready to cover you. And you don't have a mortgage payment. So that helps a whole lot. Yeah, that's the direction I would go for sure. And if you want to park it in there, you're okay from a financial analysis exclusively, an investment analysis. I would be comfortable putting the money in there to leave a loan because I'm comfortable with the market being down, knowing it's going to come up. I'm very comfortable with that. But if you're in a position, you need to remember, folks, when you you're making these decisions it's not just analyzing the investment it's analyzing where you are because personal finance is personal you know if you just went through a divorce a death of a loved

one you went through a uh very emotional stressfulridden career change, something like that, you might not be at your strongest point in your life. You might be needing some emotional time off from being brave right now. And that's okay. It's okay to move slow. It's better to be wise enough to recognize that, to be self-aware, and not put yourself out there. A lot of times when people lose money, it has nothing to do with the investment being bad.

It's their timing sucks because of their personal vulnerabilities. This is The Ramsey Show. We'll be right back. George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host today here in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage. Malia is with us. Hi, Malia. How are you? Hello. How are you, Dave? Better than I deserve. Welcome. Good to have you. How much debt have you paid off? A little over $89,000. Good. Where are you from?

I am from Concord, North Carolina. Awesome. Good to have you. And how long did it take you to pay off $89,000? It took me about six years and three months. A little over six years. Good for you. Very good.

And your range of income during that time? Started at $75,000 and I'm at $112,000. Good for you. What do. And your range of income during that time? Started at $75,000, and I'm at $112,000. Good for you. What do you do for a living? Thank you. I'm in human resources. I work for an airport. Ah, very good. Good, good, good. What kind of debt was the $89,000? Oh, wow. It was all loan debt. So car loans, student loans was the majority. I had a little bit of credit card debt. A tractor loan. So loans, different types of loans.

Okay. Wow. Look at you. A tractor loan. What was that for? So it was a John Deere. You don't strike me as the John Deere type. I missed something here.

Well, at the time, I was married, so it was my husband's tractor. It was a John Deere. Okay. All right. So he left, but you was my husband's tractor. It was a John Deere. Okay. All right. So he left, but you got the tractor? No. He left, and he has the tractor. Oh, okay.

Oh, that was part of the loan, though, before he left. I got you. Okay. Now I'm catching on. Well, it all worked out. Okay, good. So what started this journey for you for getting out of debt and meeting up with this Ramsey stuff? Yeah.

So I came across you. I'm not sure how, but somehow I came across your show, started watching you, was very energized and just enthusiastic about you giving advice over different financial things and started watching those debt-free screens, and that was really my motivator. So I printed out something. I printed out the debt-free scream advertisement from your website, like, back in 2016. And I put it on my vision board. And I said to myself, I'm going to go to his show, and I'm going to do a debt-free scream.

So I'm here. It's surreal, but it's super exciting. You made it six years later. Yeah. What enabled you to stick with us for six years through a divorce and a John Derek to me and everything. I love it. Um, so it was really just wanting to live like no one else. That wasn't something that I grew up with or was used to. My parents was always good about paying debt and seeing debt as a good thing, but they would pay it off. But I did not want to have debt.

I did not want to feel chained to paying someone. And so just really just focused on what would that look like and how would that feel? And it feels absolutely great. Yeah. It feels absolutely great. Yeah. You're 100% free now, other than your house or including your house? No, no house, no mortgage. So you're 100% free of it. Way to go. Congratulations. Yes, thank you. Well, what do you tell people the key to sticking with it is? So I would say, you know, I started out married. And so for those that are married or who are thinking about being married,

that are dating seriously, I would say that communication and just commitment and agreement that this is something that is important to the both of you. Just motivation for knowing that on the other side, you don't have to think about paying someone or paying people or being, I call it a chain, just feeling chained to making payments every time you get a paycheck and just prayer. So I'm a believer. And the big thing for me was just sticking with my tithe and offering.

Sometimes I wanted to use that tithe and offering for something else, but I thought it was about priority and order for me. And so those things were just very important. You had spiritual discipline, financial discipline. I mean, you're a whole new person. Yes, yes, yes. I'm super excited about that. Outside of your immediate family, who was your biggest cheerleaders? So I've been thinking about that.

I don't know if I had a cheerleader. I think I was my biggest cheerleader. I love my family i love my friends and they would always you know joke with me about not wanting to spend money but um i was my biggest cheerleader it was just something that i knew that i wanted to do and that was super important to me so i was my biggest cheerleader now you make six figures you know any payments exactly take that love it now you're going to be cheerleading your friends that's right how'd you do that mic drop here we go tell me more i love it i love it i love it all right and you brought the kiddos with our

kiddo with you what's her name and age marley she is 10 years old she's a little shy right now but yes i brought her with me and it was super important because I wanted to and I want to create a legacy of her understanding that is possible and that you do not have to live with debt. It's not something that has to be part of your legacy. So I wanted her to be here for that experience. Yeah. Just to understand that it can happen. And she'll remember how uncomfortable the whole process was that's right she will from paying off the debt to being on the debt-free state exactly that's a little bit of discomfort that's it well hey that

but it does it leaves a mark and you remember that that time my mother did this weird thing and drove all the way over to nashville to do a debt-free scream on the radio because she'd worked for six years to get her debts paid off it does lock in it locks in more than you realize it so cross it off the vision board you did it and now i love it you're impressive very well done all right malia and marley from concord north carolina we've got a copy of baby steps millionaires for you that's the next chapter in your story. That number one bestselling book will show you how to go on and be a Baby Steps Millionaire, and that's where you're going now. Yes. And then the next thing we'll give you is a Financial Peace University membership for a year.

If you've not been through it, go through it. It's all the brand-new videos with George and Rachel and Deloney and me. And, of course, a copy of the Total Money Makeover for you to give away to someone, maybe someone who's kind of giving you a little eye roll earlier. And you can go, oh, well, here's how I paid off $89,000. Thank you very much. I have a few people in mind. Good stuff.

All right. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt-free. Yeah. three two one we're debt free i love it that's so fun and we got a smile out of marley yes we did yes we did that's how it's done right there that that's pretty impressive um here's the thing. When you go through that length of time, six years and three months, and you go through a divorce during that time,

any time you go through six years, you're going to go through, there's going to be some garbage somewhere in that six years to be shoveled. You seldom go through, any of us seldom go through six years of our life with only good stuff. And so when you've got a slog that's that long, it requires a different level of persistence. Yeah, I mean, you're kind of driving the car and you're going, this is going to be a lot longer journey than we once thought. Are we there yet? The tank's got to look different.

And there's going to be some pit stops along the way. And if you know that going in, it changes everything. longer journey than we once thought so are we there yet the tank's gotta look different and there's going to be some pit stops along the way and if you know that going in it changes everything but man to see someone go six years and three months persevere pay 89 000 it's almost as impressive as someone who's super intense and does it in eight months when you interview people that we define in our culture as successful put that in air quotes i talked to the successful man the successful woman they were successful uh you find almost all of them have one of two or three or two or three or five or whatever uh traits character traits. One is perseverance. Perseverance.

They just won't quit. Another one's integrity. They're fanatical levels of integrity. You find these things popping up most often in people that you and I and others define as so-and-so is successful. Well, Malia, she's successful. That's right. That's how that works. This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you. George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host.

Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Nicholas is with us in Kansas City. Hi, Nicholas. How are you? Hey, Mr. Ramsey. I'm good. How are you doing? Better than we deserve. What's up? I actually was calling in. I was just hoping to get some advice on maybe a potential job switch. And so right now I'm in the mortgage business and it's a little hard. And I think this last year, my eyes are a little bigger than my stomach. So I ended up, I bought a car and a house. But other than that, that's the only debt I have. I have, you know, the IRA set up, 401k.

I got some investments going on. But I feel like I'm kind of getting in over my head if I have no, because I'm commissioned fully. I have no, I don't really have many deals coming in right now because it's just, you know, the rates are super high. It's hard to get some of these locked in. So I have a salary job or potentially a salary job set up. I'm just wondering if I should maybe look into sticking it out here or if I should think about maybe switching into something that's more stable. What's the salary job pay, and what is it?

So it's an asset-based lending, and so the salary would be around $125,000 to $150,000. So like commercial deals? Yes, sir. Well, yeah, commercial lending as far as like corporate loans go. Okay. All right. Do you want to do that? I mean, so I graduated in 2019, and I graduated with a finance and banking degree, and that's how I got into mortgages.

But that's what my dad does. So I've been thinking about getting into that just because, you know, it would be commissioned eventually, but the salary seems, it just seems more stable. And I don't know, I feel like I'm kind of in over my head right now with the mortgage and the car note. Well, part of this is a career question, but part of it is we've got to get you out of debt. And so can you sell the car? Is it worth more than you paid for it still? I think it's about right around the same.

How much do you owe on it? Sorry, around $18,000. And the payment's right around $400. I mean, you can pay this thing off and keep it, but you keep saying you're in over your head. Sorry, around $18,000. Okay. And the payment's right around $400. Yeah. I mean, you can pay this thing off and keep it, but you keep saying you're in over your head. I don't know. Is the $400 a month tanking you? You have no margin left at the end of the month?

You're also investing, too. No, it's good. And so that's another piece of the puzzle. Right. So I don't want to pull out anything from my investments and obviously from, like the ira and the retirement stuff but um i bet the mortgage is really kind of okay so hit me hard yeah so basically without refis in in the pipeline the mortgage business is really struggling uh because nobody's refying because everybody's got a three percent mortgage they're not going to refi to a five or six a 6%. And so the only mortgages coming through are purchase money mortgages, meaning people buying houses right now.

So the volume that you've got as an originator is way down, so your income is way down. And that's likely to be that way for a little while. That's not going to fix in the next three months. It's going to be a long, hot summer in your world. So the question, though, is, okay, I don't have much income coming in. I really need to get a job where I can make some money. And then this other thing pops up. So I think I do agree that if you want to leave the mortgage business

because you're not making any money and go make some money and go get a job, make some money, I think I agree with that idea. I'm not sure which job you would take, though. I think I want you more excited. I want you to run to something as much as from something. And right now it feels like in this conversation you're just running from something right i think that's kind of my biggest uh struggle is is depending you know the salary sounds good because that's coming in each month but then you know do i really want to be doing this 10 years from now and it kind of sounds like no right It sounds like I'm taking this because I need some money because I'm not making any right now. Well, and another big thing that I want to kind of do is while I'm younger,

I want to be able to have my money work for me and kind of grow my money. But if I'm just getting a paycheck each month and putting it towards my mortgage and, you know, my car. I don't really have, you know, I can't contribute. Well, I'll contribute to the 401K, but I can't max the IRA. I can't really have, you know, any more investments. And those will come back. I understand that. So what I'm telling you is quit analyzing your career based on one piece of data, and that one piece of data is income.

It is one of the things you need to look at, but you also need to look at what the long-term play is. Am I going to be doing this 20 years? Is there a progression here? Can I go up? Can I move up the ladder in this process? Can I make more and more and more? Or is this I'm taking a dead-end job because I need a salary?

Shut up. You know, don't do that. There's other options out there. What I'm doing now is a potential to maybe move up and own a branch, but then also the asset-based lending that's got potential to then get salary also and then start doing my own deals to where the commission will then roll in. And that's what my dad does. I don't care what your dad does.

All I want to know is what you want to do. How old are you, Nicholas? I'm 25. Okay. Don't take a job because you're not making any money so that you can make a salary. Take a job that you think is going to be thrilling 10 years from now, 15 years from now, and your income will have gone up, and along the way you solved the salary issue too. They tend to go hand in hand.

The thing you're real excited about, you tend to be great at, and you tend to get paid well to do it. They should. So I think you ought to look at two or three other things while you're doing this and see if the decision-making paradigm that you're using brings you back to this after you've been on this. In other words, before you marry this girl, go on a date with some others. And it'll lead you right back to her if she's your true love and uh if it if it doesn't then you go yeah she would just you know just no so yeah i'm gonna stretch that metaphor way too far there but um i'm gonna leave it alone but the uh um yeah so yeah don't only take a job because of

income and don't only take a job because of passion and purpose and ignore income yeah well that's dumb too i'm gonna send you two books one is from paycheck to purpose our friend ken coleman's book that's going to help you find that thing that you can do and get paid well to do it and i'm going to send you a copy of the total money makeover so hang on austin will pick up and i hope that book shows you that man if we stop investing for a little while to pay off this debt, we're going to really feel the progress. We're not going to feel like we're beyond our skis here. And part of that, like Dave, he's saying, I want to invest more, but I can't because I don't have the money because I'm paying a car payment. And that's what debt does.

It steals from your future. And so I want you to get out of debt. And if that means selling the car because you're so excited about investing and you drive a hoopty i'm okay with that but you got to make a choice here we can't be going in three directions and then wonder why we're not making progress yeah and you know what he's experiencing george is the old buffett saying you know you you can tell who's skinny dipping when the tide goes out so all these things he was doing was okay as long as you're making money but as soon as the mortgage business dried up, then all of a sudden these stupid things looked pretty stupid. You got exposed.

Yep. It shows you when you're stupid is stress tested. It comes out looking, well, stupid. I mean, that's how that works. And that's happened to me. It's happened to you. It's happened to everybody out there. And so, you know know if you're making

really good money it could cover uh as they say a multitude of sins a multitude of stupidity uh but as soon as your your income dries up a little bit or tightens up a little bit all of a sudden you go well that one too smart well you've told you've told everyone you've tried to out earn your stupidity yeah i did i tried it it didn't work because apparently my income potential is not as high as my stupid potential so um which is infinite i don't know apparently careful george sorry hey you're a sharp guy we all know that careful george we're poking fun at old dave not new dave it's different i'm not sure what to do with that exactly. But new Dave is older, so it's very confusing. Yeah, there's an oxymoron in here somewhere. We'll leave it alone.

I love it. George Camel, Ramsey personality. Our thanks to Kelly and Andrew and Zach and Ben and Austin in the booth. I am Dave Ramsey, your host, and we will be back. Dave here. You can find all of our shows with the Ramsey Network app on your smartphone. It's the only place to listen to the entire back catalog of episodes. Download the Ramsey Network app in your favorite app store today.