The Ramsey Show - App - Why the Debt Snowball Method Works Every Time (Hour 1)

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Warshaw, best-selling author, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Open phones as we talk about you right in front of you. The phone number is 888-825-5225. The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Tyler is with us in Topeka, Kansas. Hey, Tyler, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Hi, Jade.

Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up? My wife and I, along with our two boys, are ready to purchase a home financially. Emotionally, we're both at different places and having a hard time coming to an agreement on what to spend and even whether now is the right time. Okay. What's the problem? What do you want to do versus what she wants to do? We both want to move into a home, but my wife really enjoys the security of having a large amount of money in the bank. Okay. So what's it going to cost you? What are you looking to spend? How much do you have saved? Tell me more.

We've got up to $80,000 for a down payment. Buying probably no more than a $300,000 home. Okay. And is that $80,000 just the down payment or do you have more money that you have set aside for your three to six months? Yes. What's yes mean? You have an emergency fund in addition to the 80K? That's correct. Okay, cool. And what's your household income?

$140,000 to $160,000 depending on commissions and bonuses. Okay. There's no reason to not buy. don't understand um no hesitation whatsoever this is the time to do it yesterday y'all go find your house every guideline you gave me fits and makes good common sense it fits everything we're talking about um the only trade off is she wants to keep eighty thousand dollars in the bank and watch it go down in value while the house goes up in value. So you're trading a $300,000 house for what is now a $250,000 house because in 20 minutes, that $250,000 is going to be $300,000 while you sit around and watch your cash. Okay.

Yeah, this is not the time to wait. You understand what i'm saying the 80 is still going to be 80 a year from now the 300 is going to be 350 a year from now okay i got you and then it's going to be 400 and you're 80 still going to be 80 you probably need to sit down and explain explain that with the the right attitude not my tone not my tone of voice but jade or rachel's tone i don't know about mine maybe maybe rachel's yeah rachel's always the friendly one she's the nice personality but the uh uh yeah it takes great joy in that but anyway the uh uh yeah i i um i think i would start with you know know, and some of that, I understand how you feel, but 10 years from today, waiting is not going to be our best plan. Would you agree?

You know, and say something along those lines and say, you know, 10 years from today, the house that we can buy for 300, we won't be able to buy anymore. And the 80 will not have gone up. And so the longer we wait, the less house we're going to be able to buy. How old are you guys? 28. Listen, I remember when me and my husband bought our first house, everything was in line and I still felt just a little bit trigger shy. It's a big purchase. It's the biggest purchase you're ever going to make. And so there is know that apprehension there but let her listen to this call and the experts are telling you that you're ready so you're in good shape it listen dude if you were a broke guy trying to buy a house and your wife was trying to talk you out of it I'd

call you stupid and tell you not to do it right here on the air you know that you've heard me do it yeah I mean because I love you and I want you to win right and so i'm you know i would love to do it that's it yeah i'm kidding but not much but the uh yeah so yeah seriously you guys are in really good shape you've done a good job waiting is going to cost you and the only reason you're waiting now is fear and in this case it's false evidence appearing real it's just you're doing something big you've never done before and it like jade said that is scary it's valid to be scared but it's not valid to let the fear rule you yeah okay fair enough well i appreciate everything you guys have done you've really helped us out a lot hey tyler how old are

you two 28 all right cool you fit everything man everything you're lining up i mean you didn't call me up and you're 19 years old right and you have no money and your broke friend at the happy hour drinking three beers with you told you about house you're not that guy i mean you you actually have a clue well then there's like the perception right your perception really denotes what your behavior is going to be. And I think right now so many perceive that it's impossible to buy a house in this market. You'll never be able to do it. Yeah.

And they are actually doing it. Yeah. Everybody's telling them that all their friends are going, no one can do it. You're right. It's all gone. All the opportunity is gone. Everyone under 30 is going to die homeless. You know, this is the crap that's on the internet and it's

just crap because we meet 26 year olds with a paid for house doing their debt-free screen that's true so i mean we meet people all the time that are doing it and making it work but they're just not over buying that's right and they're not buying crap they can't afford that you know paul's in chattanooga hey paul welcome to the ramsey show thank you d, Dave. I have a great situation to be in. First off, I thank you for taking my call, and I appreciate all the information and education that y'all give to everybody on finances, but my question is, we're looking to open a Roth account. I have that available through my employer retirement. I have a 401k with a Roth option.

My question is, after we've looked at all of our finances, after we've become debt-free house and all, trying to allocate money, I think we've got enough to fully fund one Roth, but to accomplish all of our other goals, I don't think we can fully fund two. So the question is, over time, would it grow more if we fully funded one Roth account with $7,000 a year. Not a dime. Or two Roth accounts.

$7,000 is $7,000. If it's in seven accounts or one account, it's still $7,000. And if all seven accounts are growing at the same rate, the seven $1,000 accounts will grow to the exact same total as the single $7,000 account mathematically. So you would recommend me and my wife both open one? Doesn't matter. Instead of, doesn't matter? Doesn't matter.

If you both want one and partially fund it, that's fine. I do want to ask you though, because you started out by saying you had the Roth 401k. Are you saying that you're fully funding that, which is around $22,500, and then you're moving over to a Roth IRA? I just want to make sure that you're clear on what you've got and what you're funding. No, we're trying to establish the 15% total.

Okay. I thought you said the house was paid for. Yes, the house is paid for. The 15% total doesn't matter anymore. You max out everything if you can. Keep the government's hands off of it. If you can hit your other goals with the house paid for, I'd max out everything if you can. Keep the government's hands off of it. So I would, if you can hit your other goals with the house paid for, I'd max out the work Roth,

max out two individual Roths, keep the government's hands off the money. When you're in baby step seven, the 15% doesn't apply because you're debt free. Now we're stacking cash. But if you've got some other goals and you want to slow, you want to keep retirement down at 15% temporarily, that's okay too. This is the Ramsey Show. So some of y'all may not know Jade and Sam's story. They were in the cruise line business for years and somewhat still are booking talent onto the cruise ships, right? Yeah, most definitely. Sam's business, and they were actually uh talent themselves at one

point on some of the cruise ships so you've gotta um have mixed emotions about going on a ramsey cruise you're like the most experienced cruiser probably i've been on a bunch of cruises but nowhere near as many as you have i mean i'm excited it's the best vacation you can take wow okay well and you'll be working but not working i'll be working you'll be working the same way that's right i'll be on the stage but in a different capacity let's put it like that that's and it's a completely different situation that's right than being the entertainment because we're just we're we're entertaining but we're not the inner so the ramsey cruise is coming up in march it It is not yet sold out, but it's approaching a sellout.

If you want to come, it's the live like no one else cruise. You need to be on baby step four or beyond. We'll check your little baby steps card and make sure you are because we don't want you going on vacation with us and not getting out of debt. That'd be a wee bit hypocritical when we tell you not to go on vacation while you're doing this. So anyway, up to baby step four four and beyond live like no one else cruise turks and caicos saint thomas puerto rico the bahamas

dave and sharon remsey all the remsey personalities uh plus steven curtis chapman plus manit shohan from the food channel plus uh dina carter fabulous country music star remember strawberry wine yeah oh man what a great song yeah anyway and just a lot of other folks on the cruise with us that are unbelievable talent and uh you're going to have an absolute blast we're going to be with you the entire week it's a seven day very high-end cruise it's not at one of the cheapies this is not walmart on the seas this is holland america the good stuff i vouch for that and yeah i've been on holland america a couple times and this is one of their newer ships it's excellent i've also been on the cheap stuff and this is not that yeah there's a

difference i'm just saying there's you do get what you pay for on the high seas so there you go well speaking for about paying dave a lot of people are like do i do i have to have the you know however much it is up front but the good news is you can book it with just the deposit six hundred dollar deposit yeah march 22nd through the 29th 2025 and uh we had one sold out it was supposed to sail in march of 2020 when the only thing on the high seas was a virus and so we weren't able to go they shut the whole thing down i mean they shut the ocean down they just they pulled the plug on it was actually dry sand and go ahead and say it dave i know you want to say fauci pandemic the fauci pandemic you know that's but the uh anyway so now we're gonna five years later we'll be on the high seas

for real and um gonna gonna be amazing ramsey solutions.com slash cruise we'd love to have you join us with just a few cabins left so you can get your reservations done now people lindsey's in wichita kansas hi lindsey how are you hi i'm good how are you guys better than we deserve what's up all right so my question is at what point do you prioritize paying off the highest interest versus the lowest balance snowball method you mean snowball versus avalanche never you always do the debt snowball the avalanche is mathematically incorrect let me tell you why okay because it sounds like it's mathematically

correct correct you understand paying off the highest interest rate first sounds like it's mathematically correct should get you out of debt faster right hello hello sorry i'm still there okay is that right is that why you're considering it? Kind of, yeah. I'm looking at these interest rates, and the highest interest rate is about seven times our lowest interest rate. Yeah, and how much debt do you have? We're right about $23,000. And your household income is what?

Right under $100,000. so the interest rate does not matter you're going to be out of debt in one year so the actual dollars paid in interest will be irrelevant okay so i mean ten percent on twenty three thousand dollars is two thousand dollars in a year that's the most swing you could have in this whole thing. And you're not even going to have that much swing your whole swing in between the, if you ran out the numbers on two possible, two probabilities, um, you, you would find that the actual math is probably around $1,200. We're having this conversation over. You don't have a $1,200 problem. You have a $23,000 problem in a lifestyle problem and a process problem, and you're spending money you don't have to impress people you don't like, and you've decided to stop because you're smart. Way to go.

Thank you. That's your problem. The problem is your mirror. The person in your mirror is your problem. It's not an interest rate problem. That's thing number one. Okay, let me walk you through this for a second because this is something I just, in the last two years, got my head around. I knew the debt snowball method was working better than the avalanche method, because we help literally

millions of people get out of debt using it, and the avalanche method does not have the same success level. Avalanche method, for those of you who don't know, is you list your debt's highest interest rate to smallest interest rate, thereby paying off the highest interest rate debt first, regardless of its size. And the debt snowball method is you pay off the smallest debt to largest debt so you have some immediate success because you knock out the little one really fast. You get a little more excited. You knock out the next one a little faster, a little faster, a little faster, a little faster. And every time you knock off another one, your hope increases. Here's what we have actually discovered, Lindsay.

The math is incomplete when you only consider what we've talked about so far. If you're actually doing a real business case on this, you would also enter into the math equation the probability of actually completing the plan, finishing, and becoming debt-free. If you put probability to it, the number of people that complete the debt snowball plan is vastly higher because they get excited and hopeful because they're knocking out the little ones, is vastly higher than the probability of people who create who complete the supposedly intellectual version highest interest rate to

lower interest rate but the probability is lower of completion so when you enter in the math of probability of completion if you're doing like a probability and statistics equation you would never use the avalanche plan because almost no one actually finishes it because they lose hope they get stuck in a large debt the high interest rate and they're just peddling and peddling and getting nowhere and they lose hope and 30 days in they quit instead of getting fired up and wired up and plowing on through and that's the difference so you always use this and by the way um northwestern university actually did a research study on it and found that the debt snowball outperforms on average because of probability of completion, the avalanche

method. And they actually then ended up printing an article in Time Magazine that said Dave Ramsey's right after all. Look at that. Who knew? Well, it makes sense. You're shortening that feedback loop. So you're getting a good result.

And every time you get that good result, you get that hit of dopamine that's like, feel good. Yes, I did something. So yeah, you want to keep going. You need some wins. Yeah, you do. Everybody needs some wins. If you're a brand new salesman, the first thing you need to do is go make a quick sale.

Anything. Yeah. Just even if it's a little one. You need the success, the confidence builder, the hope deferred makes the heart sick. Hopelessness makes the heart sick. The opposite of that is when desire comes, it is the tree of life. So when you get that hope because you pay off that little one, you go, whoa, this is weird. I never paid off a debt before in my life.

There's another one. Knocked out another one. Look at that. And there's another one. I got another one. And you start getting more and more and more pumped because you're getting through it and your your likelihood your probability of completion enters into it and when you actually convert that to a math formula the debt snowball is far superior because in the real world it's

far superior and so it shows up in the math yeah that's right yeah the worst thing in the world is when you've been doing a workout plan that doesn't work and you stand on the scale and it never moves oh god it's like i give up cut the tape oh i'm done i'm done but if you see it even just a couple of ounces yeah you're like okay it's working and you keep doing the plan and you keep and before you know you lost five pounds well yeah and it's the back away from the donuts for me. I got no donuts, Dave. Son, it's a donut problem, son. The guy in the mirror, right? Every time.

It's so sad that most of our problems originate with a person in our mirror. Yeah. That's the bad news. The good news is most of your solutions originate with the person in the mirror, not someone in the White House. Yeah. Thank you, Jesus. news. The good news is most of your solutions originate with the person in the mirror, not someone in the White House. Thank you, Jesus. Or if broccoli could just be round and donut flavored, that could also put a little hole in it. A little hole in the middle.

But it's still broccoli. It would have to be donut. Oh, this is just... These shouldn't even be in the same sentence, Jade. I know. This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Washaw, even be in the same sentence jade i know this is the ramsey show jade washall ramsey personality number one best-selling author is my co-host today thank you for joining us america this is the ramsey show the phone number is 888-825-5225 eric's in buffalo new york hi eric How are you?

Better than I deserve, Dave. Long-time listener, great fan of you and Jade. Got you on Spotify and Facebook and all that. Appreciate you for having me. Thank you. So I was in a train accident about a year and three months ago, got caught between a couple trains, and finally just settled that just a little over a couple of weeks ago. Um, after the lawyers took everything, uh, ended with about like two 75, uh, thousand. And, um, my birthday is coming up on seven 11

and just decided to pay off my house and my car. And that leaves me with just, uh, around 200,000. Um, I tied 150 up in a CD at four and a quarter. Cause I really wasn't sure what to do. And I don't really know if I trust the market that much right now. Um, so I have about 50,000 left over and I'm just looking for like how to be a good steward of the rest. And then once like December 24th comes up and that TD's matured, what to put it in to gain the most potential on the money. How are you? You okay? Yeah, I am actually finished with all my medical and I am back to almost everyday normal living playing

volleyball again and pickleball and all that. So yeah, my left hip, uh, got fractured. I needed surgery and, uh, yeah. So I, I recovered, um, from December 12th, uh, hip surgery. Uh, what is that about a little more than six months now. But everything's great. Talked to a therapist for a good matter of about nine months and I feel like I'm back in some of the best shape of my life. Yeah. That's great. It's not every day you hear somebody say, I got caught between a couple of trains like that's yeah usually people don't walk away from that so that's pretty cool man that's neat yeah no i i'm truly blessed okay cool well it sounds like you've done the stuff we would teach you to do with the money uh you've

been very careful thoughtful you've gotten yourself out of debt you've got a plan um so what is what is it that you actually need us to answer? Cause it sounds like you've done most of the stuff. So I guess I just, uh, you know, I just threw it in a CD just because I'm not really sure what to do with it. Um, I mean, and when I was in my twenties, I had a great paying job and went and, you know, borrowed money to go on trips. I'm actually going to El Salvador, um, tomorrow, uh, for like a birthday trip. Cause I was actually supposed to go to El Salvador right before my train accident or right after my train accident, uh, I called them on the hospital bed and they allowed me to cancel the non-refundable ticket and they refunded me.

Um, so it's kind of like full circle. I went on a mission trip a few years ago and so I'm going to revisit some friends. So I guess the whole point of the question is like where can I earn the most potential on my money if I don't really trust the stock market right now? It's at all-time highs. Obviously, you're probably following that. Well, listen, I think that if you don't know what to do with your money and if you're unsure about how to invest it, yeah, sticking it in a high yield savings probably would have been my move. But I don't I wouldn't want it to stay there. It's a lot of money. One hundred fifty thousand dollars. I'd love if you would put in the time and kind of learn a little bit more about this with a smart investor pro and kind of get that confidence before you start investing it because I do think the best place for this money is invested. Let's say the $50,000 that you have set aside is your three to six months of expenses. And then once you learn and feel comfortable enough to invest this,

you do that with the $150,000. That's what I would do. Now, what happens in the future? Do you start working again? So I'm a self-employed. I just drive for Lyft because I don't see any value in going and finding a W-2 job that pays me $17, $19 an hour and then takes away taxes, where I make $25, $30 an hour driving Lyft. And then I just write off all my miles from my car. But you still pay taxes? No. No, actually, Jade, I've driven ride share for the past seven years, and I've never paid a dime in taxes.

It means you're not making any money, then. Just because of all the write-offs, yeah. Yeah, the write-offs aren't fake. They're real. Your car's going down in value more than you're making, so that's why you're not making the taxes. Anyway, so the investing question works like this. How old are you?

I'll be 35 on 7-Eleven. Okay. And have a great trip, by the way. Hope it works out great for you. You've been looking forward to it a long time. The way I look at investing is I've been doing this on the air now for over 30 years and every single year for 30 years, people have told me that they're not going to buy a house because houses aren't going to keep going up in value. They're going to, they're going to tank

and there's going to be a bubble every single year. People have told me they're not going to invest in mutual funds because look how high they are. They can't maintain that. And every year, both have gone up. Every decade, both have gone up. Every five-year period, both house prices and the stock market has gone up. So I completely am 100% trusting that both of those are going to keep going up long term now i don't know about tomorrow or this week or by november 3rd i couldn't get i couldn't tell you anything about that but but over the next decade i'm 63 i'm a hundred percent sure i'm going to make money in the real in the stock market going up by being in mutual funds, and I'm going to make money by owning real estate, and real estate goes up in the next decade.

I'm 100% sure of that. And there's very few things I'm 100% sure of. But in the short, I've never seen a time in American history, modern American history history that you can look back that both of those things in a decade did not go up now can you trust the stock market between now and Christmas oh crap no I mean there's crazy people running to be in the White House I mean come on right but when you look at the graphs I mean you can go back and look at the graphs as far back as you want and you're gonna watch them go up so yeah you need i'm with jade if i were in your shoes i think eric you need to learn some more about it because you're afraid of it because you're watching the news and that's where you're getting your information bad place to get

information by the way and um about reality and so um you know if you want if you want to learn about everything that's wrong with the world you can find that out on fox and cnn they'll tell you but the uh but if you want to actually learn what the market has done you need to sit down with somebody and look at the actual numbers and say all right in 1982 here's what it was when i was 22 and i'm really glad i bought my first mutual fund in 1983 can you imagine can you even imagine how sweet that little mutual fund is today oh my goodness i know i listen i sit next to you so it's a it's a it's a sweet baby i like it yeah so you just if you're thinking long term and you

study the actual data it'll help your fear dissipate. Because this is a case of not knowing and the fear comes from not knowing. Some things, when you learn more about them, you should become more fearful. That's right. Oh, yeah. Healthy fear. And more careful and more wise in the handling of the thing, whatever it is, right? And so fear is a good thing in that sense but fear that that creates paralysis based on lack of knowledge is never a good thing so learn learn learn learn learn learn learn and

the more you know the less you're gonna the less you're gonna want to do it or the more you're gonna want to do it facts are your friends exactly it's dr john deloney yeah yeah he he's he's right about that though though. Yes. There's so many things I can think of, like the guy calling a little bit earlier about buying his first house, his wife's afraid. Yeah. Facts are your friends. Yeah, it's usually a lack of clear knowledge on it. It's kind of a circulation of what you've heard people say, what you think might be

going on, what happened to your friend a couple of years ago. It's like all those things kind of correlate together to inform your... Yeah, and you know, we're at a disadvantage in our culture today because we have so much bad information at our fingertips and bad influences at our fingertips. It used to be the news media was actually, you know, in the 60s or 70s, they were actually credible and you could trust somewhat what they were saying. And you weren't bombarded every minute with this magic wand in your hand by negativity.

Yeah. And so it was somebody that's 14 years old that lives in their mother's basement that has an opinion on TikTok. Oh my gosh. And they're called an influencer. God help us. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Subscribe, follow, however that works in your format. Also, some of those platforms have a share button, sharing the show with friends. That's a big deal. Jade was just telling me about a movie at the break that I need to go see. See, that's how you tell people. She said, and I'm not going to tell you about the ending so uh there we go that means that means i gotta i gotta go see it to get you know that's right it is now the difference is your friends will tell you about the ending on this show but the uh uh yeah spread the word tell

people about this to click a link and send a link around and tell them something fun and funny or something you learned that changed your way of looking at money whatever however we can help you that's what we want to do and help us spread the word with that and those five-star reviews they help us with the algorithm as well folks thank you very much and we know you're doing that because our numbers are way up thank you wow justin is in omaha nebraska hi justin how are you How are you? Good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? My wife and I have about $145,000 in student debt, and she kind of feels like it's her fault, so I'm trying to just help her, I guess, not really cope, but just figure out how to help her better understand and how to attack it from there well was most of it hers when you got married uh all of it so i was well then it would be her fault

yeah that would be accurate but that we don't have to be shamed about her guilty about it it's just like yeah you know um apparently you thought she was worth it so there we go listen when i got married my husband had 200 000 of student loan debt so and it just kind of ballooned even more because of interest so was he worth it yeah he was he was oh boy sam's definitely worth it and more and more but i mean the point the point of me saying that is that feeling is very real. Like it is, it feels like, I mean, it feels like a weight. It feels like the weight of the world is on you and you feel bad about it.

The best thing that you can do, and this is just from personal experience, the best thing that you can do is really lock arms with her and never refer to it in her presence as her debt again. Our debt. It's ours. I'm with you. And I've been doing my best to not do that, too. Yeah.

And I mean, honestly, over time, that helps so much. And then, you know, coming up with a plan to attack it, is this the only debt or do you guys have more? We have about $25,000 on her car. Mine is paid for. Okay. Did you guys just get married? Is this? We've been married a little over two years.

What's your household income? About $85,000 after tax. What does she do? She's a speech pathologist. Oh, that's good. Yeah. What do you do? I'm in golf.

Okay. As in a professional golfer? No, the other side. I'm a Class A PGA member, but I'm not a professional golfer. I just help other people get better at golf. Oh, so you're an instructor. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, good. And what do you make? I make about 42. And she's only making 42 as a speech pathologist? Good. And what do you make? I make about $42,000. And she's only making $42,000 as a speech pathologist? Yeah, so right after she got out of graduate school, it's a little lower, and then once she gets her season, it goes up. Oh, when will she pass that?

Next couple months here. Okay, and what will her income go then to then uh she'll be at about 65 after that still sounds low okay um i was actually thinking speech pathologists generally made six figures but what do i know no maybe not maybe not in Omaha. I was going to say maybe not Nebraska. Okay. But the, all right. So,

okay. So you guys are going to end up making a little over a hundred at that point. You got 145 plus 25. The car is pretty expensive. The $25,000 car is bothersome in the equation. It's not the end of the world, but it's a lot. I mean, you got, what, an $800 car payment, right?

It's about $470. Oh, okay. That's better than I thought. Okay, good. All right, anyway, so, yeah, you've got $160,000 to come up with making a hundred and so if we do 50 a year uh that's three and a half three years and some change so we need to do 60 a year and be done in three years and that's going to be beans and rice rice and beans no vacations no eating out we're going to lean into this thing and we are going to clean up our mess and she is going to maximize her

career that she paid a lot to be in because i'm still got my head sideways a little bit got that german shepherd look right now on what she's making i just doesn't sound right so um i'm not an expert on speech pathology but i've been doing this a long time so i've interviewed a lot of people about what they make for what they do and so um anyway i want you to work on that i want her to get every squeeze every dollar out of this degree field that she paid a lot for to get a return on investment um and because she's got high income potential and uh you got to do as much as you can do also to increase your income and in your field i suspect there's some side gigs so to speak that you could do uh that weren't with club members or whatever that where

you're not in a conflict um and i'd be working every tournament everything i could get my hands on to do that as well so all of that to say you guys maximize your incomes and i'm with jade i think you just change your pronouns and just go look honey we've got debt if you want to talk about it like it's yours it's fine but i married you it's now we we're french we we and this is what we do and we are going to attack our debt and out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks the bible says and so if you never again speak of it except in terms of plural our we that kind of pronoun versus yours mine if you never again speak it then that says that your heart has shifted and as long as your heart is there then eventually she will acquiesce to that because we are going to work on this together we are going to knock this out we are both going to sacrifice we are going to clean this loan mess up so that we have a good future yeah

yeah love drive love is the only thing that really drives out that shame that she's going to feel and that's the way you do it is just by coming alongside her and it being a we the good news is with their situation he said her income is going to go up 60-some-odd thousand dollars. No, 260. Oh, 260. From 40. Oh. Unless I misunderstood him.

I may have misunderstood him, but either way, that's the plan. I hope it goes up 60. Goes from 40 to 100, that's going to be very helpful. Well, that's what I'm saying. That makes more sense. That makes a two-year plan instead of a three-year plan. Yeah. Okay, I like that.

Either way, they're going, and they're paying it off. Yeah, either way, we way we're going to lean into it i mean it took you guys longer than that and you know significantly you accepted each other and didn't shame each other in that process and that's how you all did it yeah that's a big key now i always say like i don't take much credit for that i like i always say i don't know if i was very wise or just like love is blind but you know i just didn't see it any differently it It's both of ours. Well, I mean, we did it in a little different setting, but I mean, it was our income. Yes.

And I have never, I don't remember ever saying to Sharon, I brought this money home, I'll decide what I want to do. I don't think I've ever said that. Dave, I think that's equally important. Yeah, equally important. Our debt, our income. For 38 years, she's not had an income earned outside the home. Well, yeah, because what spouse wants to feel like I'm getting to have some of your income? Yeah.

That's a recipe for somebody. That's a recipe for disaster. It's a power play. Yeah. It's relationally unhealthy, number one, and becomes a manipulation and all that kind of stuff like you know well when only when we have a big fight is when i yell at you would say it's my money yeah but other than that i say it's our money you know and it's like yeah if you're gonna play that that's a power play that's manipulation play and then that's when you find out what's in the heart out

of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks so when someone is saying something you need to listen because it's coming from inside of them oh yeah because if the words that people use do matter and so i'm listening to that i'm watching that i'm thinking about that so you're going to be on the other side of that justin and you're going to be just fine yeah y'all are going to the point is bust through it and it doesn't matter and over time both of you will adopt the proper pronouns regarding your money. That's right. This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you. I'll see you next time.