Live Like a Girl with Dr. Mindy Pelz - Are You Feeling Blah? Exploring Testosterone in Women with Dr. Amy Killen

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Dr. Amy Killen is here to unravel the mysteries of testosterone, bioidentical hormones, and the secrets to skin health and longevity. Dr. Killen, an international speaker and pioneer in regenerative and integrative medicine, brings a wealth of knowledge from her clinical practice in Utah, where she introduces cutting-edge therapies like the full-body stem cell makeover. From discussing the nuances of hormone replacement options to decoding the aging process, this conversation offers a holistic roadmap for listeners seeking to optimize their health and vitality at every stage of life. Tune in for a deep dive into hormonal balance and lifestyle strategies with Dr. Amy Killen on this enlightening episode. To view full show notes, more information on our guests, resources mentioned in the episode, discount codes, transcripts, and more, visit https://drmindypelz.com/ep237 Dr. Killen is a multifaceted professional blending her expertise as an international speaker, clinical practice owner, entrepreneur, author, and media figure to advocate for holistic wellness. With a background in emergency medicine, she champions efficient therapeutic access and strives to democratize cutting-edge treatments through education and patient empowerment.  Check out our fasting membership at resetacademy.drmindypelz.com. Please note our medical disclaimer.

On this episode of the Resetter podcast, I bring you Dr. Amy Killen. Oh, this is a juicy one. I am so excited to bring this conversation to you because it's all around, of course, hormones, but specifically testosterone. We're going to dive into everything you need to know about testosterone. Haven't done a full podcast episode on that. then we move into everything I hope you need to know about navigating bioidenticals. This is such a hot topic right now.

And I wanted to dive in with Amy and talk about creams versus trokeys versus patches versus pellets like dosage. What do we need to know about leaning into bioidentical hormones? And then we landed on skin health and slowing down the age. gene process and longevity. Seriously, this was such a juicy conversation about the journey from pretty much 35 all the way into the back half of our life. All the hormonal changes that are happening, all the symptoms that are happening, and what can we do about it? So I really look at this as a go-to episode for you all to answer those kind of questions. So let me tell you a little bit,

if you're not familiar with Dr. Killen. Let me tell you a little bit about her. So she's an international speaker. She does have a clinical practice. You'll hear us talk about it at the end. She is very much into regenerative medicine, integrative medicine, and lifestyle, which is what I love.

I love that she brings lifestyle into the conversation. She was a former emergency physician, and she is now in practices in Utah in Park City, where she has pioneered a full-body stem cell makeover, which is one of the most innovative regenerative treatments currently. So she has this, brings this really interesting perspective of the cutting-edge longevity therapy that we have, mixed with this deep hormonal knowledge of what's actually changing in our body

during these different phases of our life, mixed with an appreciation for an important lifestyle. So this is why I wanted to bring her to you, is she just had this very holistic approach that I think we all can benefit from. So here you go. If you want to know about testosterone, you're curious about creams and trokeys and patches and how do you navigate that and you're wanting to slow down the aging process. This is the episode for you.

Dr. Amy Killen, enjoy. Welcome to the Resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you. you to believe in yourself again. If you have a passion for learning, if you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. So let me start by welcoming you to the Resetter podcast. Thank you. Yeah, so excited to have you here. I'm excited as well. It's going to be a good talk. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I have to tell you that I have an affinity for certain Instagrams, and I have certain Instagrams I don't love when it

comes to hormonal, but I love yours. Like, when I go through and I look, I'm like, what is she going to say now? What is she doing now? Like you already, you've taken this concept of hormones and have brought in some life to it on your Instagram. So thank you for keeping it entertaining for all of us. Oh, thank you. That means a lot coming from you. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course, of course, here's where I want to start this conversation today because we've never done this before. And I think my audience really needs a deep dive into testosterone. And it's interesting because I've had multiple conversations with many functional medicine doctors about, you know, is testosterone supposed to deplete as you go through menopause? You know, what, what's the difference

between the aging testosterone of a man and an aging testosterone of a woman? And I think the more More importantly, we tend to attach testosterone as this hormone that affects libido, but it does so much more. And I can tell you as a postmenopausal woman, like, who, when I started to lose it, it was a lot more than libido. And I want to talk about why that is and what are the other symptoms. So let's start off. Enlighten us about testosterone. Yeah. I mean, testosterone is, it's fabulous.

It's obviously we all have testosterone. women have about a tenth as much as men in general. So it's it, but interestingly enough, women have more testosterone in their bodies and they do estrogen. So even though we think of it as being a, you know, a male hormone, it's an everyone hormone. And it is made by the, you know, the ovaries and women and testes in men, as well as the adrenal glands and some peripheral tissues. So you have testosterone. It's kind of just like marching downward as you get older, men and women. So it's like kind of the slow, you know, march starts especially around 30.

35 or 40 for men and women. And there are some circumstances where levels can go down more abruptly. Menopause is one of them. So you do have a little bit of a dip because you lose ovarian function, although you still have adrenal function of testosterone. But yeah, I mean, just like you said, it's, I mean, it's libido. Yes, it's interest in sex, for sure. But it's also sexual function.

So it's also arousal, you know, getting erections, men and women. But it's also motivation, like getting off the couch, go to the gym. Like it's building muscle, which as we know for women, especially is more important as we get older. it's getting rid of fat, like burning visceral fat and like, you know, getting rid of your tube around your belly. And it's also brain health. There's so many things to testosterone beyond just libido. And I think that especially as women, we don't hear about it a lot for us because there are no FDA-approved testosterone for women still. And so that's something else to

talk about. So on that note, I'll tell you my own personal experience going through my perimenopausal years. So my background was as a competitive athlete. I played at the University of Kansas on a college tennis scholarship, and I've just been athletic my whole life. I have literally craved exercise the majority of my life. Somewhere in my late 40s, that craving completely went away. And I was having to like force myself to go out and work out. And one day I was sitting in a, a conference on all hormones, but they were talking specifically about testosterone and how it relates to DHA. And that talked about how when DHA makes cortisol, progesterone and testosterone, so when

your stress is high, you lose that DHA, you lose your testosterone. So I, you know, I know you know all this. I'm just, I just bringing to the conversation, what shocked me was it wasn't just the process of perimenopause that was causing my testosterone to tank, but it was actually my stressed out life and the combination of those two. Would you agree? And can you give me more context for that? Because that shocked me. That's completely true. And it goes even beyond that. So imagine you're in perimenopause or menopause. You're not sleeping well for various reasons. Progesterone is low. You're having hot flashes, et cetera. And of course, men as well, if you're not sleeping well,

a lot of testosterone is made at night. It's like growth hormone. So it's made at night. So if you're not sleeping well, then you're not making testosterone. So then that is making you even like more stressed out. So it's like this vicious loop. So between the high cortisol of stress, between the not sleeping well and not making testosterone that way, and the fact that you're also going through all these changes where your body is just not making as much testosterone, it's like all these things come together in the perfect storm that lead to, you know, lack of motivation. Like you said, and I also see a lot of just kind of mood being, when I ask people, they describe their mood as being like,

blah. Like, I'm like, how are you feeling? And when they have low testosterone, men and women, they describe their mood as just being like, eh, like, eh. Like, I'm not necessarily super depressed, but I'm also not feeling very good. Like, I'm just kind of in a space where I don't really enjoy that much. I don't feel that much. So that's something else that I see as well as kind of an early indicator that maybe testosterone is a problem. What is it supposed to do through menopause? Is it supposed to decline? I mean, if supposed to, yes, I mean, we are designed. We are designed. to lose a lot of good hormones at menopause, whether that design was a good one or not. Yeah, it sucks. I'd like to go back to the maker and have a conversation. Yeah, I think, you know,

I think they weren't designed to live beyond, you know, 50 or 55 or so. And so now that we are, we're spending half of our lives in this post, you know, this menopausal state. Obviously, we wish we had those hormones back. And I think we both agree on that. But yeah, yeah, it goes down. It's supposed to go down with age. And that's what happens with men and women. But I think that we both, we both agree that there's not a lot of good that comes from testosterone going down with age. Like, I can't think of anything good that comes from it. No, I can't think of anything good either. So is there any way we can slow that decline down? Like if, you know, I always think my big plea in life is to turn around and tell all the 30-year-olds

and people going into their 40s like, oh, you got to know what's coming because, but I say it with love because I feel like if we knew what was coming, we could change our lifestyle to soften the ride. So is there anything we can do to make sure that testosterone doesn't tank? Yeah, I mean, the research is more in men than women. And so in men, and I think it probably, a lot of it probably holds true for women as well, but we just don't have as much. But, you know, lifting heavy weights, for instance, we know if you lift heavy weights and using a lot of those big muscle groups and keep, that will help boost testosterone, limiting, you know, a lot of sugar. and kind of getting rid of belly fat, vizero fat, that will help as well.

There are some vitamins like vitamin D3. So, you know, get a little sun if you can. Cover your face, but get some body sun. That can help testosterone. Again, sleeping, reducing stress, you know, all the things that we know are healthy for us in general can help you be able to make testosterone. But even with the best of intentions and the best lifestyle,

there does come a point. Usually for both men and women, but I think especially in women, where your levels just kind of keep marching down and you may need some help. So are there foods we can eat to stimulate testosterone? I don't know if I've seen anything, and maybe you have. I haven't seen any like studies on specific foods. I mean, there are some nutrients like selenium and zinc and vitamin D and some of these things

that, you know, if you're deficient in those and you take them and they may help. But, you know, most people aren't deficient. usually, you know, for the basic building blocks of testosterone. But yeah, I mean, you can try some of those. You can eat some Brazil nuts and see what happens. Right. Well, it's funny because Dr. Kerry Jones and I have had this conversation multiple times. And I always come back to her.

I think there has to be a food like strategy for testosterone. Because what I can find is there's a strategy for estrogen and progesterone. Why would there not be a food strategy for testosterone? Other than the fact that you want to keep your microbiome healthy, so you can break down all of these hormones. Yeah. And she claims no. I'm like, what happens?

What's the oyster? What about the oyster? And she's like, well, the only reason is because it's high in zinc, so people think of it as an aphrodisiac. Do we know any other thing about the oyster? I would think, I can only, I mean, I think making sure you're getting enough protein so you can build the muscle, you know, to, because that is part of being able to make testosterone is if you have a lot of muscle and you're working out, that can be helpful.

but I don't know of any other like foods that are going to really be super helpful, unfortunately. Right. Okay. And then I'm going to ask, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but it's one that I've been just curious about is the facts of fasting on testosterone in women. There's interesting new science, conflicting science about fasting in men for testosterone, which is, you know, conflicting of what we learned years ago. We know that fasting can help growth hormone. and we know that when where growth hormone spikes, other hormones tend to follow. But I'm curious if you have an opinion on fasting for testosterone.

You know, I haven't seen anything about fasting and testosterone and women myself. I do think that fasting is beneficial in a lot of cases, but I also think especially as we get older and especially as we lose muscle mass, we have to just be a little careful with that, depending on the person. That's why we cycle it. That's why we... Yeah. Like, it's so funny.

I don't know if you see this on socials, but everybody wants to go into absolutes. Like, you have to do this, don't do that. And you miss the whole premise of hormones. Hormones, the way I look at them is they're always adapting to your environment. And so when the environment changes, the hormones are going to change. And there's always going to be a need for different tools at different times. So I think that's where we get lost is looking for the one magic bullet that's going to ease all of this. Would you agree that you just need a big toolbox? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, as you know, as you know, know, hormones are so nuanced. Like, you know, people ask all the time, like, how do I, how much

estrogens should I take? Or, you know, it's like these questions. I'm like, I don't, I don't know you. Like, there are so many different things that go into this. I wish that we have like little, you know, one-line sound bites that we could use to explain this. And I try on social media, but it's, this is all very complicated stuff. Agreed, agreed. So one of the things I like to do is look at like the, the way that we are primally designed. And one of the things that shocked me, about testosterone as I started to study it, is the first thing is that we get the most testosterone during ovulation. Obviously, that's to reproduce. But is there, why do you think it comes in in this one moment and then it goes away, you know, it's still present, but not to that degree

at the rest of our cycle? Do you think it's purely around reproduction? I do. I think it's just, you know, you get the surge, like you said, of testosterone right before you ovulate. And it's because And if you've taken testosterone, especially if you've overdosed yourself ever, which I have, like it really does increase your libido. And all of a sudden your brain is like, it like turned your brain from like, like, I could care less. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I need to have sex. Like it's a very like specific thing. If you haven't done it, I highly recommend it. I highly recommend it too. Yes. Well said. So I think it's just your body. Your body is like trying to, it wants to have babies. And so that's, that's the way that things about it. But the thing once I started to understand hormones, I was like, but

wait, this explains why I appear at times to be a mismatch with my partner who is getting testosterone into a system dripped in throughout the day. I'm getting it dripped in one part of the month. And I think that part of the conversation would be so helpful for so many women, which leads me to that question of, you know, when you're dealing with men and women, I know there's lots of variations of relationships at this point. But when we're dealing with men and women, our libidos are a mismatch just based off of testosterone. Yeah. Yeah. And in men, you know, in men, you also have higher levels in the morning. So like when you first wake up, those levels are going to be higher than they are the rest of the day. So, you know, knowing that, of course, everyone has their own preferences,

but that's something to take advantage of if you are in a relationship and your partner has, you know, morning desires. But yeah, I mean, it is interesting. I think that that we continue to reproduce and to have sex and it keeps working out somehow. Yes, it does. And we have a lot of mismatches, like you said. Yeah. Yeah. So let's take that idea because one thing that I've been trying to figure out is to how to help not just, you know, perimenopausal menopausal women, but the cycling woman, like once you realize, oh, wait, I only get test, I get this big surge of testosterone during ovulation, but my male partner, if you're in a heterosexual relationship, is getting this all day long. How do we create a congruent sexual relationship with mismatched testosterone?

Are there strategies to be able to improve that part of our relationships, despite we have vastly different times testosterone comes in? Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. I mean, one thing I think is important to think about is the role of birth control pills on testosterone and women. And that's, something that it hasn't been talked about too much, but we know that when you take oral birth birth control pills, you're increasing SHBG, which is serum hormone binding globulin, which is going to bind up more of your free testosterone. So in women on birth control, you have lower free testosterone than you would otherwise. And so that's one thing. So even just being on birth control, you can see a big dip in your desire because of that low testosterone. But if you're not on birth control,

I think you look at other things, you know, that you can, that make for a good relationship or a good, you know, interaction. And for women especially, a lot of times it's, there's a lot of stress and there's a lot of like long-to-do lists and I can't get this. You can't get my mind to quiet down. So I talk a lot about this idea. You know, we have the sympathetic nervous system and we have the parasympathetic. And the sympathetic, of course, is like the go, do, you know, be, you know, do this, all the things. And the parasympathetic is like rest and digest, which I think of it as being rest and receive. So how can we activate that? rest and receive. And I think that's hard for women, but like be in a space where you're able to receive compliments and touch and adoration and massage and pleasure and all of these things. And if we can activate that parasympathetic, that in women, I think, goes a long way, even if testosterone isn't where it needs to be. Yeah. You know, years ago, like when I first started this podcast, one of my first guests was Zach Bush. And he gave us a list of things that we could talk about or to talk to him about, and one of them was about sexual health. And so we started

talking about the differences between men and women. And he brought up a really interesting point. He said, for play for a woman begins at breakfast. If you want to get with a woman at night, you're going to need to start at breakfast to be able. Yeah. So, and I think it ties into what you're saying, which is if we're stressed out, don't touch us. I have a, I have a friend. friend of mine who tells, like she told me this story, which I think is hilarious. So she was, she and her husband had been kind of fighting a little bit, like just weren't seeing each other very often, you know, just not really getting along. And one day, she came back from work and her husband met her at the door. And he said, honey, I have done the laundry for the entire week.

I have washed everything. I folded. I put everything away. It's all done. And now I want to give you a 15-minute clitoral massage. Wow. And my friend, this had never happened. Either of these things had never happened before. And so she was like, oh my gosh. And so but later I was talking to her and she said, Amy, I don't know what turned me on more. Yeah, true. I hope the men listening. Get this. It's so true. So what is it about the female brain? Like it's really true. Like if you do the dishes, you clean up, like you do things that feel in service to us, our libido goes up. Like, is that all parasympathetic, we're just moving, we're not stressed out about our to-do list? I think as part of it, I think there's, I don't know. I mean, I think there's a lot of questions.

I think there's the security piece of it and, you know, feeling more secure so that you can kind of let go. Because if you're not, if you don't feel like you're secure in terms of like, you've done all that you need to do for the house and the kids and the, you know, all the things and you just don't, you're not able to really relax. And I think it, you know, it's different for men and women. Like, we both need parasympathetic and sympathetic, you know, to have to have sex in general. But I think for women, especially, it's a lot harder to, you know, to reach the climax or to reach kind of where you want to go if you're not able to get into that parasympathetic, like really relaxed, trusting, secure, and not thinking about a thousand other things, headspace. Yeah. Yeah, it probably worked out better in the cave days. Right now we have too much to think about.

Yeah, exactly. I think our brains are a little overwhelmed. So, okay, so that leads me to the other question I have about testosterone that I haven't been. been able to answer is what if it's declining for both men and women as we age, does that decline also need to, is that going to match a decline in libido? Because I've heard a lot of women going through the menopausal experience will tell me like, oh my God, my libido went through the roof. Now, and I know a lot of women that are like, I could not interested at all. So I want to know like primally, I don't think we're designed to just lose our libido into those post-menopausal

years. But if we lose testosterone, are there other hormones that kick in that give us that libido? You know, I don't know. I mean, yeah, the estrogen is involved in libido also, but of course that goes away as well as with menopause. And interesting, I know women with testosterone, some people, some women seem very sensitive to testosterone. You know, when their levels go down, they notice it. And when we replace testosterone, they notice it. But then some women aren't really that sensitive. Like I have some patients who have low testosterone and they have good libido and vice versa. I think that's different than men. And men, I see, you know, when you have low testosterone, almost all of them feel it. And when we replace it, almost all of them feel it. But, you know, women are a little bit trickier that way. It doesn't always work as well in women as it does in men in my experience. Do you think there's a toxic piece to the decline of testosterone? One of the women that I had on

here was Shauna, oh my God, I can't remember her last name. She wrote Countdown. Amazing book. She's a researcher about how just in general is the human population, our testosterone levels are going down. And she specifically equated it to phallates high in our system. Do we, is there a toxic piece to the changes in testosterone from the lens you look at this? Yeah, I think definitely. I don't know. I don't know. again, I haven't seen it in women studied, but we've certainly seen in men, you know, because people aren't even measuring women's testosterone. Right. Right. Very few doctors even measure it. And even when they do, they don't know what to do with it. So they just so, but in men testosterone, we've definitely seen, you know, 40% or so reduction in the last 50 years. And I think part of it is environmental. So I think

it's part of it, part of its toxins, like you said. And the other part is lifestyle. You know, we're bigger. We're lifting less. We're outside less. We're stressed out more. So I think it's both of those things. And it makes sense that if it's affecting men that way. it probably is women, but I just, I don't know. Right, right. And I've heard you say this now three or four times. It's like, yeah, we don't know because we don't study on women. Yeah, who needs to know about women?

They're fine. Right, exactly. Oh, my God. I just had Lisa Mascone on the podcast and we talked about some of the research she's doing and she was even talking about how difficult it's been to get her research published in journals because they tell her she's too niched. And she's like, oh, I'm studying 50%. the population and that's too niched? It's so crazy. Yeah, I was trying to get into a study. There

was a growth hormone study that was going on. It was like the trim X, like the next phase of that. And I was talking to the researchers and they were like, oh, you're a good candidate, but you know, but you're a woman. And you're not, you're a premenopause because I'm still premenopausal. They're like, yeah, we don't, we're not going to deal with all those hormones. So we're, we're not taking any women, you know, unless they're menopausal. And I was like, yeah, that's kind of like a lot of, that's what a lot of people think as they're doing research. the hormones are so complicated that they don't want to have to like you know deal with them or control for them or whatever and so they just don't include us that's so crazy I i hope i live to see

the day that all changes so it's so crazy i know so okay so if we are losing testosterone we have certain things like stress and toxins that can accelerate the loss is there a time you would recommend that women add testosterone in like you know there's a lot of conversation right now that we should be adding these hormones in before we lose them too much and there's too much damage. And on the same lines of that is, gosh, with testosterone, there's trokeys, there's pellets, there's creams, like, and believe me, I've tried them all. So I'll share with you what I've noticed a difference. But I'm just curious, like, how we would look at bioidenticals and where do we put that into the perimenopausal journey? Yeah, I think, you know, testosterone and progesterone are the two

that I start, you know, replace the earliest in most women. Estrogen a little later because it's, you know, it's going down, but it's not going down in relation to progesterone as much. But, yeah, I think perimenopause, you know, 40-ish, you know, it depends on the person, obviously, depends on symptoms, what else is going on as well as lab tests. But that's a good time to at least check levels and see how you're doing. And if nothing else, you can follow, you know,

follow total and free testosterone over time. Because, you know, it's pretty easy to replace, even though there are a lot of options, but that's good. it's good and bad. Traditional doctors won't replace it because they don't, there's no FDA approved options. So they're, they're just like, oh, it's, it's illegal to give testosterone to women, which I think is obviously wrong. But it's crazy that they would say that. But they do. But once we- You'd think they want to keep us horny. I'm just saying, like, it might be to the

patriarch's advantage if they would just keep us horny for a hot moment. But go ahead. No, yeah, I think they're just like, I don't want to learn about that. But there are, you can do obviously lots of, there's compounded options. You can, you can, you can, you can, take some of the male testosterone versions and just use lower doses. So I think that, you know, I've tried various forms as well, and we can just discuss which ones we like the best, but, you know, pellets, which have some downsides, but women love them for testosterone, as well as creams that can be compounded. You can do injectables. Which great about that is you can use, you know, just some regular sort of men's testosterone, sypionate, or an an anthate, and you just use a little insulin

needle, and you can just draw up a little tiny amount, inject it a couple of times a week. And it's a very, very simple way to do it. And then there's trokeys that dissolve in your mouth and there's various forms of those. And there's even oral pills, like an oral micronized testosterone pills that you can do that some pharmacies will do. So there's a thousand ways to get testosterone into your body. Yeah. So I did, I did trokeys for a while and really liked it. Like definitely started to get my motivation back for working out. Definitely helped with libido. I definitely noticed the fat loss that you're that you were talking about. So I became a big fan of it. What I noticed was I needed to come up with a pattern where if the dose got too high, I got aggressive. Like I got irritable and angry and like I didn't

recognize myself. Is there? And so it took me a couple of months to realize like, oh my God, this might be the rage that men feel like I don't I've never been so angry and then a friend of mine said well if you that when I was taking the trokies I was also in a cortisol saturated state and she was like the minute you have cortisol up and testosterone up you've got rage so I switch to the creams which has been a lot better and I just do a small bit once a week or a couple times a week So is there, what are your thoughts on that and is there a better way? Is it all very unique? Like some of us like it this way and some of us like it that way? Yes. I mean, the short answer is yes. It's very unique. I mean, certainly you always want to work on stress and always work on, you know, the cortisol response and, you know, the adrenal kind of when you look at the pyramid of hormones, you know, the adrenal gland and then the thyroid gland and then you kind of have the sex hormones as you're approaching that, getting those foundational pieces established is important for whatever hormones we're replacing. You know, one of my favorite ways to do testosterone is as a cream applied to the labia in women. And because you can use half the dose.

Like the concentration can be much less or you can just use less of it. And it works great. And the problem with testosterone creams is wherever you put them, if you do it over and over again, you will usually see increased hair growth in that area or darkening of hair. So like if you put it on your forearm every day, then you might see darkening of the hair in that area on your forearm. And so we tell people, you know, put it in areas where you don't have a lot of hair, like maybe your upper inner arm or like your inner thighs where maybe you just don't care as much if, you know, you have a little extra hair growth there. Or, you know, the labia is great because hardly anyone's seeing it. Yeah, right. I was going to say if it darkens, who cares.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I always thought that we did it on the labia because it's so porous. And like it, and there's, you could just get, is that another reason? Yes, it's absorbed very well. You just get a little tiny. amount. You do have to make sure that the formulation that you have is it doesn't, it doesn't cause irritation. There are certain types of bases that they use when they compound it that are, that are better for that area versus like you wouldn't want to put like an alcohol gel in that area. You know, that would be a bad idea. Like you have to make sure that you talk to your doctor and it all works. But that's one of my favorite ways to give it to women because it's just super simple. You know, you put it on before bed and you just need a little tiny, a little tiny bit.

And is there a, there are a dosage that you would recommend? I mean, everyone is pretty different. Yeah, I mean, it ranges from, you know, a couple of milligrams a day to, you know, 10 or more milligrams a day. And again, depending on your route, like each route is going to have different dosing. But I like to get the free testosterone levels up into the higher, the higher end of the range. And there's actually some interesting work. I don't know if you are familiar with. Dr. Rebecca Glazer, who is a, she's a surgeon and she's a breast surgeon. So she does a lot of surgery for breast cancer patients. And she's published some very interesting studies over the years. using testosterone helots primarily, but she treats menopausal women who have had a history of breast cancer, who can't take estrogen. She treats them with testosterone and like an estrogen blocker, but she uses pretty high doses where your testosterone, your total testosterone range is, you know, in the 200 to 300 or more range, whereas normally for women, it's like, you know, less than 70 or something. And but is able to get rid of menopause symptoms, you know, almost entirely. And testosterone is also anti-breast cancer. And so she's used it and shown some interesting studies

in using it in people who have active breast cancer to reduce the tumor itself. So lots of glazer, G-L-A-S-E-R, if you want to look her up. Yeah, I got, I will definitely look her up. Do you think that when we take an exogenous hormone, that it slows down the production of our own endogenous hormones? Like if our body goes, oh, I'm getting testosterone from this outside, source, I don't need to make as many as much. Like once you're on that cream, now you're on it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So because of that, I have to be, you know, full transparency, I delayed going into bioidenticals a really long time. And it was actually Carrie Jones that at one point said to me, we need to keep your mind sharp, Mindy. Let's look at some options here. So it wasn't

until my early 50s that I was actually willing to like look at this. And now the conversation changed quite a bit. But my number one concern was exactly that. Like once you're in, like now you got to go in because the body is expecting it to come from this exogenous source. So if we give it to a 35-year-old, if we give it to a 40-year-old, is that, like, is there an age at which we want to be prudent to not give it too young so they don't tank their own stores? Yeah, I mean, I definitely think less than 35, you don't, for testosterone, it's kind of like my mental, for men and women, it's kind of like my mental cutoff of, like I don't really want to be treating younger people with this.

Certainly there are ways to do it. You can do low doses. You can do kind of like you're doing like, you know, every other day or, you know, like kind of pulsed on and off doses. And in theory, when you stop taking these hormones, like testosterone, for instance, in men and women, your production will continue, will go back to where it was. But it can take several months. And so you do want to be a little bit careful.

And obviously also with men, especially with fertility, you know, testosterone can reduce fertility when you're on it. and there have been a few cases where it seems like it continues even after you've stopped it. So there are pluses and minuses. I think with regards to things like estrogen and progesterone, I don't see a worry with starting those, again, not early early, but, you know, 35-ish. Progesterone can be given earlier than that because you're not making, you know, we give it because you're not making it because of perimenopause or other reasons.

And so it's, and you're not going to just snap into making those hormones after menopause. Right? Like, unfortunately, there's not much we can do. It's just, they're just gone. Like, they're just gone. So I think that it's a little different than testosterone. Yeah, I, yeah, I would agree on that. So, which leads me to progesterone. So I, you know, mid-40s, late 40s, I start experimenting with all these biodendicals. And, you know, when we get to estrogen, I'll share my experience there. But the one that was like the hero for me was progesterone. I swear, like, the first time I took a progestone pill, I was like, oh, my God. I don't know. remember what this felt like I could actually relax my body. I could sleep like it was miraculous.

So I would also agree these earlier on doing progesterone. But what you've been talking about on Instagram, which I think is really interesting, is the cream versus the pill and that there may be a difference in how your body absorbs both of those. Can you speak on that? Yeah. So first of all, I'm a big fan of progesterone. I think it is the unsung, of the hormones. And progesterone is something where even if you are, you know, you're a 30-year-old, you're a premenopausal, like you, but maybe you have PMS symptoms. You're getting a lot of pain or heavy bleeding or migraines or anxiety or all these things before your period. A lot of times that's because you don't have enough progesterone. And so you can give progesterone just during that

second half of your cycle or before your period. And that can make a huge difference in how you're feeling and how you are able to go through your period. And then just a sign of, note on that, I encourage everyone who's still cycling, especially if you're irregular, to get checked to see if you have polycystic ovarian syndrome, because that's something that if you don't diagnose it. So basically, that's something where you're not ovulating regularly. You're ovulating sporadically, which means you don't have progesterone during half of the month because the progesterone is made from the egg, essentially, or the follicle. And so that's something that we can, you know, we give progester, and it makes a huge difference, not just in fertility, but also

in reducing your breast cancer risk later on, also in reducing your uterine cancer, all these things that we can do. But progesterone is a key piece of that. And then to answer your question, I am, I like to start with, you know, if you're, if you're perimenopausal, I don't, you can do any kind of gesturone you want. You can do pills, you can do trokeys, you can do creams, you know, it doesn't matter as much, just kind of based on your symptoms, see what works, and that's fine. But if you're menopausal and you're taking estrogen, I think it's really important not to rely on progesterone creams for your uterine protection from the estrogen. Because the creams are, they don't get in the blood reliably and they don't protect the uterus reliably. And you need to have

that uterine protection if you're taking estrogen. So creams are fine if you're not relying on them, like if you're premenopausal, perimenopausal, but after menopause, I think that just an oral micronized progesterone pill is probably my first choice. Yeah. And that was the one that I, really, when started taking that, I was like, oh, I feel like myself again. Like it really, I would, I would, you know, anecdotally, it was really great. So, okay, then that leads me to the other question that I've thought about with all of these hormones is if we look at progesterone at 35, she's just going down, going down, going down. So would it be that at 35 you would take one dosage and at 40, you're going to up your dosage. And at 45, you're going to up your dosage a little more. And at 55,

you up at like do we need as to be looking at the dosage increase over time because our natural stores are going down yeah to some degree i mean i think it's in my mind there's just kind of a you can think of like maybe essentially two two primary doses and two primary ways of taking it so there's there's cycled taking it which is basically means you take it from day like 14 to 28 so just that second half of your cycle if you're having regular periods but you're having like PMS or anxiety or those kind of things, then the cycled progesterone is perfect. Like you don't need it every day just in those two weeks. And then the dose is most commonly going to be 100 or 200 milligrams capsules.

And so there are other doses. Like there's other things you can do. But if you want to keep it simple, which I do, then, you know, one to 200, somewhere in that range, either cycled if you're having regular periods or if you're not having regular periods, daily. And that's pretty much it. Okay. And so here's an interesting byproduct that I've noticed of projection.

as I've been playing with the dosage is if I go up too hot, the next day I'm really depressed. Yeah. What is that? So, I mean, progesterone works on your brain. This is one of the reasons we give it. So, you know, we give it to any woman, even whether you have a uterus or not, because it works in your brain. And it has especially oral progesterone. So the kind of, you know, the pill form is going to help with sleep because it's going to, you know, kind of help relax you. The other form that a progesterone won't do that, by the way, just the oral form. But it's also going to kind of bring, you know, it's bringing you down a little bit. Like it's like this like, it's like the opposite of estrogen. So it's like bringing you down. And so if you get a lot. And so if you get. And so if you get. And so if you get. And so. And so if you brought down, essentially too much, you can feel depressed or you can feel very tired. A lot of women if they get too much oral progester or just like groggy the next day versus some women can take hundreds of milligrams and it doesn't even phase them. So it's very different from woman to woman. Yeah. And I've noticed now I'm a year and a half without a cycle and I notice that it doesn't happen as much and I've been actually increasing my dosage a little bit because the only reason to not increase it is because I didn't want the depression and low energy the next day.

So I kind of use that as my gauge of where did I go and how much should I do. So, yeah, it's interesting to hear put words to it. Okay, we got to talk about estrogen. This was the hardest for me and I'm still trying to find my right path with it. And here's why. Every freaking time I do estrogen cream, I gain weight. And every time I get off of it, the weight drops. And so I finally narrow, I do the same kind of thing where I do like a low dose every couple of days, got off alcohol, started supporting my liver, started really working on upping my fiber for my gut because I just figured my body's not clearing it.

So it's storing it. And I hear this from a lot of women. And it's the thing where you're, is so frustrating where you're like, I'm sleeping better. I'm happy. My motivation has gone up. and yet I've now gained 15 pounds around my belly. Like you, it's like a decision that so many women are having to make. Yeah.

How do we avoid that when it comes to? And I just narrowed it to estrogen. Maybe you'll tell me it's the other ones too, or maybe it's the balance of all of them. But that's the one that trips me up every time. Yeah, it's interesting. So yes, I definitely hear this from women that estrogen will, we'll feel like, you know, it'll make them gain weight. But when we look at the large amount, like the large data sets,

estrogen is actually, once you get on a dose that works for you, estrogen is actually going to help you burn visceral fat, and it's going to reduce your, you know, at least your fat mass over time. So it has a lot of benefits. I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind. One, it's important to start low and just super slowly increase. Because your body gets used to it.

But like if you start at a high dose, you could gain weight. Your breasts are super sore. Your pelvic floor is like hurting. Like you feel full. Like it's a whole bunch of stuff. So you do want to start at a pretty low dose and then just let your body get used to it. Make sure that you have enough progesterine on board. So you want to have in post-minopause or menopause, I'm usually doing about 200 milligrams

orally before bed because we know that's a good amount to protect your uterus, but it's also enough to counteract the estrogen effects. So you make sure that you have those two things in balance. And then I think that everything else you said is really important to, you know, really looking at what else is going on in my lifestyle, what am I eating, you know, moving all of that. But if you start low and have progesterone on board and testosterone if you need it and then go really, really slowly, you can get to a good dose that shouldn't cause those symptoms. Is there a dose number?

Like I like how you're explaining progesterone, like we want to get to 200 postmenopausals or dose for, and it's, and a combination because you're doing estradial, you know, to astriol, I think, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you my ref my doses. I will say that this is not agreed upon by other doctors. This is not something where people are like, this is the dose. For brain, heart and bone protection for estrogen, I like that serum estradial blood test

to be over 75. And the normal level in menopause is less than 30, just to give you an idea, like with that range. But the normal level when you're cycling, it can go up to 300, 400, you know, it's going up and down. But if we keep it over about 75, that seems to be where you need it for, especially for heart, cardiovascular disease protection. For bone protection, that dose is going to be lower, probably more like 50, 60.

You don't have to get it as high just for bone protection. And then for progesterone, I like to be over 10 for, again, blood test for progesterone because we know that's going to be offering you uterine protection. So if you decide, for instance, that you want to use a cream for progesterone because you're just like, that, Dr. Amy doesn't know anything. You want to use a cream. That's fine. But you still have to get your serum blood progesterone levels to 10, which is very hard to do

with a cream because then we know you're protecting your uterus. Okay. So that leads me to the question of once you get into these bioidenticals, then we now need some regular testing to see where you're going. Would that be helpful? Yeah, it's helpful. And you don't have to do it all the time, but at least the beginning, you know, maybe testing every three months or so as you're kind of figuring a lot of this out. Because you're right. I mean, estrogen especially, there are so many forms of estrogen and so many doses of estrogen and everyone is very different. So it does take some time to get into the place where you're like, okay, this is working. I feel good. My labs look good. I'm not yelling at my children and I'm not gaining weight and all these things. Once you get to where you feel pretty good

and your labs look good, then we can space the testing out to maybe every six months or even longer versus, you know, three months at first. And what do you feel the difference between blood and like a urinary test, like a Dutch test. What are you feeling? I'm most familiar with blood testing and the reason I've chosen to do blood tests. I have in the past done urinary testing and saliva testing. That's how I first started doing it back 11 years ago. But my concern with those tests are, I just don't find that they're as clinically validated as the blood test. Like we have large studies in good journals, you know, mainstream journals that look at blood testing. And so I, and I usually with most patients, can learn enough for blood.

I do think that there's probably some value in, like, the Dutch test, if you have a complicated patient or you're not tolerating estrogen or you don't know what's going on and figuring out those, you know, metabolic pathways. But I think for most people, at least occasionally getting blood, is that easy enough thing to do. Yeah. I've done both. And the thing I love about the Dutch test is those, the breakdown in the metabolites.

I think it's really helpful. So you can see what your estrogen's breaking down into. And I've made recommendations that as women get on the bioidenticals, they do the Dutch, you know, at least a couple times a year to sort of see what that breakdown is, although I know there's a lot of our fear around breast cancer and these things is starting to go away, which is really good. It's like, wow, how did we end up here? Like, how did we get to 2024 and we're finally having the discussion of maybe it's okay

for women to do HRT biodenticals? 22 years after the Women's Health Initiative. I mean, although I will say if I ask a poll, does estrogen cause breast cancer, I guarantee at least 70% of people would say yes, like just out in the world. So it's still very, my own mother still thinks it does, even though I've convinced her it doesn't. But we can work to do still. Yes, yes, we do. This is my phrasing is that we've gone from a cultural hush around menopause to we're in

cultural chaos now, which is a big reason I wanted to. this discussion because we're finally people like, oh, I can take something to make this better. Well, what do I take? And then it's like nobody knows. So I, you know, do you feel like we'll ever find a one size fits all? Or do you feel like this, this journey with bioidenticals and HRT is always going to be an individual one? I think it's always going to be individual, but I do think it's possible to create algorithms that can be more helpful than they are than we have right now. One of one of the projects I'm doing is I'm working on building out some longevity clinics and we're opening, starting in Texas. And I'm the chief medical officer. And so I'm in charge of all

these, you know, of these protocols and algorithms and then being able to scale that and teach it to, you know, all the different providers wherever we go. And I do think that even though it's complicated, if we sit down and have, you know, flow charts and if this, then this, you know, it is possible to do a lot of this stuff in a better way than we're doing it. And hopefully get that information out to all the different doctors out there who, because you're, I mean, everyone does hormones differently. You know, if I follow 10 hormone accounts and every single one is saying different things. And I, and I understand this stuff. And I still, I'm still learning new things every day. And so it's hard to be a woman in this, in this age.

Like, how do you know who to believe? Yep. That's why you have to learn to be your own doctor. You know, you have to like find doctors like you that will like partner with you and like help you figure it out. But I think one of the damages that our healthcare society has done to us is really say that there's one problem and there's one solution. But when it comes to hormones, we're never going to find one. And we have to bring, I'm, you know, my passion is bringing lifestyle into the community, into the conversation because that has to be brought in. You can't just put a patch on and, you know, all your problems are going to go away the way I've seen it. You know, every once in while I meet a woman who's like, oh, I just put a patch on and then like it was all good.

I'm like, really? Yeah, that doesn't. Well, and, you know, one of the things I say is I like the kind of reframe of that you're actually, as a woman, you're actually lucky if you have pretty bad menopause symptoms because it's telling you that you need to take action and you need to find a provider and get on some hormones and stop, you know, stop this from happening because it's your body like screaming out and saying, you know, all of your, all of your organ systems need estrogen and progester and testosterone. And so it's the women who don't have symptoms that I worry about because then they go, you know,

they're 10 or 15 or 20 years in the menopause. They've never been on hormones. It goes, why would they? And now they've got heart disease and osteoporosis and dementia and, you know, and all this visceral fat and all these problems that, you know, some of which could have been prevented if we had started hormones earlier. Yeah, agreed, agreed. So, okay, then I have to, since I've got a longevity expert here. I've got to go into some of the long term. I don't want to call them side effects because they're just part of the process of aging. And that, let's start with skin health. So, you know, the loss of, as everybody, hopefully people know, the loss of estrogen creates a loss of collagen and then all of a sudden, all of the wrinkles show up. So I know in your clinic in Utah,

are you still in your clinic in Utah? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So you do a lot of anti-aging tricks and techniques. My question on skin is really twofold. Is there anything we can do to prevent the wrinkles and the, as estrogen and collagen go down? And then once we've hit this spot where all of a sudden, the wrinkles and everything are showing up, what do we have that's safe and effective to be able to change the aging face? I mean, unfortunately, we can't prevent it yet. I wish we could. And we can't, you can't totally reverse it, but I do think that, you know, starting hormones early can be helpful for sure, like you said, like a lot of people, like, a lot of women, like in those couple of years after, they notice a huge increase in loss of elasticity, loss of hydration, you know, structure of the

skin is just like, so if you, if you never lose that estrogen and you just kind of maintain it, then that is super helpful. There are some things that we can do, like you can apply a low dose topical estrogen to the skin separate from what you're doing for the rest of your body, you know, whether you're not taking estrogen, you could do that because it doesn't get absorbed. It doesn't get absorbed systemically. So that's something that's pretty much safe for most people. There are some kind of cool like other, you know, peptides for skin, like GHK copper is great for skin. That's been around for forever when it's in some of the creams now. There's some interesting set he's looking at rapamycin for skin, which is a longevity drug. Well, it's being touted as a

longevity drug and being repurposed potentially for that purpose. So there's some interesting topical formulations out there. And then I, you know, I also am a big, fan of doing like lasers and and you know there's just I do some cell procedures. Yeah and don't you do like didn't you do vampire facials and things like that? We do I do kind of a modified vampire. It's basically injections and microneedling but instead of using plateletal plasma which comes from your blood, we use like placental stem cells or exosomes, these sort of growth factors that are coming from stem cells. And so they're more potent form. But you're going to get still you're still get a very natural effect, you're not going to get, you know, it's not anything that you're putting in your face that

makes you look crazy and it's not stopping your muscles from moving, but it's helping your skin to continue to make collagen and elastin. So we do that in my Park City Clinic also. Yeah. I mean, for me, I think that would be a smarter thing to do and go in with, I do, it does bring up the conversation of Botox and fillers and all of that. And I've heard both sides of the equation. I'm personally against any toxin you put in your body. I'm just not going to do it. I'm also personally against freezing my face because then there's no emotional, you lose that emotional connection to other humans. But I mean, that's a personal, just a personal, personal, ethos. Where do you stand clinically on looking at some of these? Is there a safe way to use them?

What do we know about some of those? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think I'm, I'm kind of the opposite. Yeah, that's cool. That's fine. And I think that I respect everyone's ability to do, to choose what they want to do and how they want to, you know, I don't think anyone should be pressured into any of this stuff. But I do think that Botox and other, you know, other toxins like that can be beneficial. I do think you have to use them lightly. Like, you don't want to get crazy because you can stop the muscles from being able to move and that you're right. It's not great.

You look crazy and you're not moving your eye, your forehead at all. I think that, you know, fillers like hylonic acid fillers and things like that can be used safely as well. But that's something especially that if you're going to do that, you want to have a doctor who is very well-versed in that, because those can actually cause some pretty serious side effects if you do them wrong. Botox, not usually. You may have like a drop brow for like a few months, which looks bad, but it's not going to hurt you like that. But fillers, if you do them incorrectly, you can, you know, it can cause blindness. It can cause your skin to necrose and fall a lot.

Like there's some serious stuff that can happen. So just be careful when you choose providers. So if a woman came to you who is postmenopausal and she's like, okay, I'm tired of the rink. Is there a door-in? Like, don't give me the big stuff first. I just need sort of a small dose of, let me slow this down. Is there a door-in procedure that you like? Yeah, I mean, like microneedling is a great, is a great, like, door-in procedure. So, you know, a little device that has 10 or so little needles.

They just go up and down really quickly, and they don't go more than about two millimeters deep. So they create these little channels. And then you can apply, whenever you apply to your skin afterwards, it gets sucked into those channels and it works better. So you can apply pyloric acid or vitamin C, but also, you know, stem cells or regenerative therapies. So that's something super easy. You're never going to look insane for more than a day or two afterwards. And I like to do that a couple of times a year for myself and for

patients. And then the other thing I'm really a big fan of is taking nutrients, ingredients that can be helpful for skin, taking them orally. So, you know, I have, so I have a supplement company called Hop, and we have a formulation that's 19 ingredients. And several of those are specifically for skin health. So like astazanthin is great for skin. And dihydrobering keeps your blood sugar. down, which is going to improve your skin health and your collagen over time. Spirmedine is really good for skin. So there's several things that we can take. Even oral hyalonic acid,

hylonic acid is traditionally given as a, you know, as a gel or a serum, but doesn't get absorbed very well. And so there's, it's actually better to take it as a pill. And it ends up going to your, your skin eventually. And you can make hyalronic acid, which is what gives your skin that dewy plump, like I just got out of the shower kind of look. So, but so I think, you know, aside from healthy diet and all the, the things that you want to do with that, adding in some key ingredients can be helpful as well.

Yeah, I love that. And talk a little bit more because you did, you and I chatted about this before we popped on about your hot box. And the idea behind it is that it's anti-aging or is it also to help with the hormonal swings that we go through. Can you explain a little more? I say that it's my, it's like a longevity, longevity, longevity stack in a pack. So it's, you know, little tiny packs, like they've, they're just these like little packs like this. They're so pretty. It's like my personality in a box. Thank you for using bright, you know, thank you for using bright colors. I appreciate it. But I chose 19 different ingredients that are not typically found in high enough doses in food. So it's not a multivitamin, but things that can

potentially get to the root causes of what's causing the aging process. We're looking at targeting you know, stem cell exhaustion and mitochondrial dysfunction, telomere shortening and inflammation, and all the things that are causing you to age, with the idea being that instead of treating every symptom that we have individually, our joint pain, our skin, you know, our drooping skin, or whatever it is, all these symptoms are because we're aging. So instead of treating each symptoms separately, what if we just treated the root cause of the aging and tried to slow down the aging process? And so it's, you know, I formulated kind of for myself and because I was getting tired of taking all these pills all the time. And then all of a sudden, you know,

friends and family were like, what are you doing? Like, what are you taking? But so, yeah, to answer your question, it's not going to replace lost hormones, but there are a lot of ingredients that are very beneficial for helping you to be able to navigate paramedopause and menopause, you know, keeping your insulin down so you're not getting extra visceral fat in your metabolism's days, you know, faster and things like that. I love this. I can't wait to try it. I haven't, you know, full transparency. You haven't tried it yet, but I'm... We're sending you on. I think we're sending me. Oh, thank you. I have. I'm really excited about it because, again, I slant towards the natural stuff.

It's just my personal belief system. But I love that you've already done the research on this. And I think you have like a, we'll leave a code for you all for people to order and they can find it directly. So I'll make sure in the notes that we do that. But I think was there like a website that people could find it at? Yeah, it's just Hopbox. So H-O-P box. life and your code is PELS, PELZ. So if you use PELD, you get a discount and you can also find me on Instagram and if you have any questions about it, I'm happy to answer those questions. I love that. I love that. Okay, before I ask you my last question, here's just sort of a

literally something that I've thought a lot about and I don't really have an answer. So I'd be curious to your answer on it. What I'm seeing trending in the hormonal world right now is there is this desire to a not suffer which i agree with like you don't as we start to transition through the perimenopausal years all the discussion we've had about creams and things like that is like okay we can minimize the suffering we can slow down the aging with some of the strategies that you mentioned but i think a bigger question is where are we going what are we supposed to look like and act like and be like at 80 and 90 and i'm planning on living to 100 like we at some point there's we can't slow it all down you know it there's going to be a point that we age so

what do you think's going to happen or what needs to happen to our mindset because right now everybody anti-aging slow aging down everybody's trying to put the brakes on that but it's still happening it's still happening yeah yeah well first of all we don't have a we still don't have a good way to stop aging. Like that, we might in five, 10, 15 years. There's a lot of research, but we don't actually have a good way to stop it. We may be able to slow it, but we can't stop it. I think the more, the more important thing to think about right now is how can I increase my health span? How can I increase those number of years that I feel healthy and vibrant and I'm out hiking with my kids and playing in the yard and those kind of things? I heard Dr. Marie Claire today on an interview.

She says, I want to die like a man. I want to like just work out in the fields and like be super strong and then have a heart attack and die. Like I don't want to be in my bed for 10 years and a week and my boat. I've broken a hip and now I can't walk and like, you know, some of these things. And so I like that idea. We don't have to be like a man, but I like the idea of just being super healthy, healthy, healthy. And then at some point, you know, we die and that's, that's natural. Yeah. And then what will we look like? Like the other thing that I really do love are those pictures of the indigenous women with all the wrinkles. Because when you see that, you're like, there's a story there. And I, so I do fear if we totally smooth out our faces and we prevent all

the aging, like, where will the stories come from? And, you know, I've been in conversations with people whose faces are frozen and I'm like, are you, you know, are you understanding what I'm saying? Because I'm losing that emotional connection. So I like your approach where it's like, let's do it, you know, let's do a bit of it so that we can slow it down. But I also love this idea of the wise elder who you look at her face and you're like, teach me. Like that's what I see. When I see those indigenous people, tell me what you know. Those people, those people are amazing. I don't think that we're anywhere close to actually being able to stop your face from wrinkling as you get older. Like there, we have some tools, but there is no doubt that when you or I are 80 years

old, we will look like we're 80 years old, even if we look a little bit better than we could have in the past at that age, we're still going to look like we've been on the earth for 80 years. That's my goal. I like where Mary Claire is going with this, but my goal also is to die looking like my age too. So I can die in the field looking like my age. I've accomplished it. We have goals now. That's right. That's right. So anyways, this was, thank you so much. I really appreciate this discussion. I know a lot of my audience is going to love this. This is really a conversation that we've been wanting to have and really make sense of this cultural chaotic moment and what we can do.

Yeah. This is so fun. Thank you. I loved it. Really appreciate it. Okay. My last question, and this one also is a personal curiosity. One of the things I feel like about health is we don't have a good definition of it.

And so everybody's chasing something we haven't been able to collectively define or is a personal definition. So do you have a definition? of health for yourself. And where you sit today in your life journey, do you have a health goal that you're shooting for? Oh, I love that question. You know, to me, it's super simple. It's just waking up without pain, having enough energy and desire and motivation to do all the things I want to do and then being able to do them without hurting myself or being in pain afterwards and continuing to do that, you know, day after day. And I have a lot of things

that I'm, for my personal goal for this year is to build more muscle. And I, I, I, I, I, I, you know, feel like I just keep trying and I'm just like, I have this like little, he's like skinny little muscles. So I need to increase my protein legitimately and, you know, continue to increase my weight lifting and all of that. So I want to like have like some arms that like my, my daughters who are 16 and they rock climb. And so they've got these like awesome arms. And they're always kind of teasing me and being like, eh, you have skeleton arms. So I want them to stop teasing me and I want to beat them in some arm wrestling contests. Oh my God. I love that. I have a 24 year old daughter that's super buff and I'm like, I used to be like that. I could look at a weight. I didn't even have to pick it up

and I built muscle. So I do, it is a really interesting phenomenon. But it leaves me very curious as to if we get to the other side of menopause, when we get to the other side of menopause, if there's a fitness rebound and there's ability to build muscle that we are not seen in those perimenopausal years. Do you have a thought on that? I love the idea. I haven't seen. I haven't seen it. I mean, certainly there are women who can build muscle after menopause and they are badass. But in general, after 50 or so, most we lose the ability. But I love the idea, but there's a secret button somewhere that I can just push on myself. And all of a sudden I turn, and I get strong. Yes. I'm going to find it. I'll let you know. When I find the secret

button, you'll be the first one I call. So this was awesome. How do people find you so they can go stock you. I mean, I already promoted your Instagram, which is where I love to follow you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm very active on Instagram. It's Dr. Amy B. Killing. I'm also on other other things as well, but Instagram is kind of where I play the most. And then my website is Dr. Amy Killen.com. And that will have linked to, I have a couple of different clinics and a couple of different brands that I work with that are my brands and companies and things. So kind of has like a link to all of that stuff. Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you for everything you're doing in the world. Let's just start off there. I think the more voices that are out there and expressing

what you're seeing as a helpful resource or helpful resources for the metapausal process. I just, we need more of our voices screaming this. So thank you for doing that. And thank you for creating all the anti-aging products that will make sure that we enjoy looking in the mirror as the years go on. So appreciate you. And appreciate your time too. I know you're really busy.

So thank you for coming on. Now, this is fantastic. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me in today's. episode, I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it, so please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know

what your biggest takeaway is.