Live Like a Girl with Dr. Mindy Pelz - Enneagram Master Class: A Deep Dive with Dr. Deborah Egerton

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

Dr. Deborah Eagerton, a psychotherapist and Enneagram expert, conducts a masterclass on the Enneagram. On this episode, she highlights the Enneagram as a tool for understanding personalities, relationships, and effective communication. Emphasizing self-awareness and personal growth, Dr. E delves into the nine Enneagram types, revealing core motivations, fears, and virtues for deeper self-understanding. To view full show notes, more information on our guests, resources mentioned in the episode, discount codes, transcripts, and more, visit https://drmindypelz.com/ep226 Deborah Threadgill Egerton, Ph.D. is an internationally respected psychotherapist, best-selling author, Certified Enneagram teacher, executive coach, corporate facilitator, IDEA (inclusion, diversity, equity, and anti-racism) specialist, consultant, coach, and spiritual teacher. Dr. Egerton specializes in working with the Enneagram to facilitate intentional change in individuals and organizations. Affectionately referred to as Dr. E, she has attained IEA Certification with Distinction for her groundbreaking utilization of the Enneagram in the realm of humanitarian healing. Her work is dedicated to dismantling marginalization and transcending the divisive practice of "othering," offering a guiding path toward the harmonious unification of our global community through the transformative forces of kindness and compassion. Dr. E serves as the President of the International Enneagram Association, the global entity responsible for educating, certifying, and accrediting practitioners, teachers, and schools. In her tenure with the IEA, she has been instrumental in fostering an environment of greater inclusivity and accessibility within the global Enneagram community. Check out our fasting membership at resetacademy.drmindypelz.com. Please note our medical disclaimer.

On this episode of The Resetter podcast, I have got something really fun in store for all of you. It is a masterclass on a personality typing system called the Enneagram. And who you're about to hear is Dr. Deborah Eagerton. And she is not only a psychotherapist and a best-selling author, but she's a certified enneagram teacher. and she is putting out a book called Enneagram Made Easy. And the Eniogram is actually a tool that I've been using in my life for over 30 years, a personality system, a way to understand the different frames in which we all see life through

and to have a better way to connect and to communicate with people when you understand this personality system. But Dr. E is one of the best at this moment in teaching the anagram not only on an individual level, but she goes into corporations and teaches the epineagram on a corporate level. And so I've used the enneagram not only in my nuclear family, but I've used it in my businesses. I've used it in my friendships. And it has been such a helpful tool when we are struggling to understand why somebody

does something or even struggling to understand why we behave in a certain way. So what I did with Dr. E in this class is I asked her to go through the nine different types. So you are about to hear the nine different types. It is a long episode, which is why I'm calling this a master class. Because if you want to understand how to use the aneogram so that you can understand yourself better and you can understand those in your lives in a deeper way. Please listen through all nine because we went at each number from multiple directions, knowing that it may be helpful for you to get a deeper understanding of yourself,

but you may also see the relationships in your life through each one of these numbers. So I bring you Dr. E. I bring you a master class on the Enneagram. and I bring it with so much love and hope that this will help you understand yourself, your relationships, and will move us all into a more compassionate place. Because really, that's truly what the humanity needs right now is for us all to understand each other better and for us all to come from a place of love. And these nine numbers absolutely have the potential to do that for you.

I can tell you firsthand they did it for me. So Dr. E and your master class on the Nagram, as always, I hope this helps. Welcome to the Resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again. If you have a passion for learning, if you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. Dr. E. Thank you so much for being here. I, we've had so many conversations about the enneagram that my thirst for the knowledge of the

enneagram, I feel like is getting quenched. But what I'm so excited about with this conversation is to bring you to my audience. So I just want to say, welcome. I'm so happy you're here and we're going to have this conversation. Thank you so much, Dr. Mindy. You know, from the moment I met you, I knew that we were going to have just a, not just a wonderful conversation, but a, wonderful relationship because we're kind of on the same mission. I learned that last week when we sat down and talked. I was like twofold. I was like, oh, wow, that's a sister. And then one of my biggest values right now is women who are decades apart in age from each other, learning from each other. So, and I don't have a lot of women in their, you know, in their 60s and even 70s. So I'm going to call you a

mentor. I am so excited to learn from you. Thank you. Thank you. I actually have that on my website, matriarch, mystic, and mentor. Yeah. Because I know that I'm in the season of my life where I want to mentor as many women as possible just to be able to stop this sort of notion of being versions of yourself. You know, there is an authentic self that we were created to be. And the sooner we put aside trying to go through versions of what other people think we should be, it step into our authentic true selves. That's when we live our best life.

Do you think, before we dive into the editing realm, do you think that that's part of the wisdom of aging for women? Because I would say that about a couple years ago, I'm 54, a couple years ago, that word authentic version of myself kept popping up. And I hit this place where I was like, I'm no longer willing to bend over backwards for everybody around me. I want to do what's right for me. And then that became the question of, well, what's right for me? And I realized I didn't have the answer to that. And I'm wondering if that's part of the aging process that we just start to realize we don't feel like people pleasing and putting up with everybody else's game anymore. Well, you know, with age should come wisdom.

Yeah. But that's not always the case. Yeah. And the only way that you can really grow into the space of wisdom is to recognize that as you go through your life, if you are picking up knowledge, if you are seeing different examples of things in life that you can do differently. But if you don't embody the knowledge, the examples that are put and the lessons that are there for you, then you don't gain wisdom.

You know, you just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. And as we know, the universe will give you ample opportunity to try it again, you know. Yes, she does. Yes, absolutely. So I can say that there comes a time in your life when it's not about pleasing someone else or being who you think you're supposed to be. you really take the time and you go inward. It becomes more of an internal journey than it is an external journey. Now, I'm not going to say that you know you get to the point where you don't care at all how you look or you don't care what anybody thinks.

We're human. Right. And as long as we're human beings, we're going to have some level of living in the real world and real life experiences. is, well, what do you really value? And what's valuable and what's important is what's going on inside. Right. When I learn the Enneagram through your lens, what I realize is it is a coming home to yourself. And when I talk to women out there, so many women are putting everybody else ahead of their own needs.

So that coming home, when they try to come home, they don't know who they're going to find there. So when I first started looking at the enneagram through the lens in which you teach it, I realized, wow, what an incredible opportunity to tap into a system to understand yourself and your motivations and the way you operate in the world in a second. And so can we start with that? Because I'm hoping that the women listening to this podcast will see that if they are lost in understanding who they are, the aneagram, is an incredible system to find yourself. It absolutely is. You know, Mindy, I can tell you that the Enneagram changed my life. And I was fortunate enough to find it at a young enough stage where the changes that I needed to make,

which were very much about looking at how I was showing up in the world. and not only the impact that it had on me, but the impact it was having on the relationships in my life, the Enneagram gave me an opportunity to see and experience myself the way other people saw and experienced me. And that at first is horrifying. Yeah, right? That's what I'm thinking.

It's horrifying. line. When I first found out my enneagram type, the point that I stand at, I honestly curled up in a little ball and I just cried. I just sobbed. Tears of sadness? Sadness. It was sadness. And it was sadness because who I thought I was and what I thought I was doing, I recognized immediately that my good intentions might not have been landing in the way that I hoped that they were. You know, I stand at Nagram.A.0.1 and I am a do the right thing kind of person. And I believe very much in, you know, kind of self-improvement and personal development, all of those good things,

and helping other people to get there. But if you push too hard, You know, like the old adage if, you know, if you're a hammer and everything looks like a nail, you know, I recognize that my lens might have been that of everyone is broken, so let me help fix you. Now, that was not my intent, but I did see that if you're constantly trying to help someone be better, particularly if they haven't asked for it, then what's the message that you're sending? The message is you're broken. You're broken. And it just broke my own heart to realize that I'm trying to be helpful, and yet I may have actually hurt people. How old were you?

I was 40 something, early 40s. And you were you? And were you a psychologist at that point? Yeah, you were in practice. And that would be a really interesting lens where if you, I mean, of course people come to a therapist to get help because they're perceived as broken. But if you accentuate that, I can understand as a healer and a helper that would feel really horrible to want to, yeah, I could understand that. And the interesting thing about finding the anagram is that. In addition to having that epiphany, I also recognize that all of the work that I had been doing with people as a therapist, that I could absolutely accelerate their growth.

If I could give them the Enneagram that after they left me, they could continue to do their own inner work. Because you tell people all the time, you've got to do the work. well, what is the work? And how do you really help put someone on that path? So by teaching people and showing them and introducing them to the Enneagram, then they began their own deeper exploration. And at that point, I thought, wow, okay, this is, this is unbelievable. I think, you know, we have had a lot of conversations about my parents coming home in my early 20s, having studied the Enneagram and announcing the numbers that we all were. And I think that in that moment, what I learned, the first time I heard the anagram was, oh, you mean we all look at life differently? And that was freeing.

To have the opportunity to understand that you have a lens in which you are viewing everything from, and it could be different than my lens. And if I understand your lens and I understand my lens, the communication could be a lot deeper. And I would say for the last 30 years, that has been my impression of the enneagram is honoring that you have a unique way in which you're going to communicate and I have a unique way. What I'm now learning from you is so much more than that. But that alone, I think, is freeing. So can you talk a little bit for people who don't know what the aneogram is? what is the general premise of this typing system? It's been around forever. It's gaining more momentum, so it's not going anywhere. Why are so many people excited about this? It's really funny. The anagram has

been, the symbol is what has been around forever. The symbol actually predates Plato. Oh, wow. But the actual personality typology system, it came to the Western world in the 70s. And it actually came in through the Jesuits, and they were studying it, and they were told not to share it with anyone. And of course, you know what happens when you tell someone not to share. So, of course, it immediately spread throughout California and the rest is history. but it is actually a psycho-spiritual tool. I call it the owner's manual that you wish you were born with. Because it's very much a blueprint to your own being.

It's your operating system. And if you can understand your operating system, then life doesn't have to be quite so hard. You know, I think the greatest gift of the Enneagram is the reality of when you understand why you do what you do, there are some things that you will stop doing. There are some things that you will understand and stop blaming and hurting yourself for. There are some things that you will stop accusing other people of. It's just a gift of grace and loves, and it teaches you that you are just fine. There's nothing about you that is random.

There's nothing about you that was not intentionally created in your being for your good. the question is, and the quest is using it for your good, as opposed to getting sidetracked, detoured, you know, and just making life so difficult. But what the Enneagram identifies is your core motivation, your basic desire, the thing that you are most trying to get out of life, your basic fear, the thing that you are most trying to get out of life, your basic fear, the thing that you are most trying to avoid. And then it also has some beautiful gifts. It shows you something that we call the passion, which is like the vice. You know, the thing that kind of, you know, that's that thing that you're afraid to go near. But at the same time, you have to

touch it in order to wake up. It also shows you these patterns that we get into, the fixations, and that we keep playing these out over and over again. And then once we can break out of the fixation of our behavioral patterns, then we can step into the beautiful gift of our virtue. And every type has a virtue that, you know, it's like your superpower. It's that thing about you that is so special that draws people to you. So it's all energy, Mindy. And that's the other thing that we don't talk about enough is a reality that the

Enneagram is nine specific points and each one of those points has a certain energy. But only one of them leads within you. So you have all nine of those energies in you. That's what makes you a whole human being. But one of those energies is your. dominant energy. That is what becomes your type. And you're born with it. You know, you're born with it. You know, you have brothers and sisters? I have a sister, yeah. You have a sister. Okay, do you two have the same personality? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No. So people say, is it nature or is it

nurture? It's both. Yeah. But you're born with the enneagram type kind of in place. And then based on how you're nurtured, it sort of influences the way it solidifies. Now, I'm sure I'm laughing in my own head because can you go through the nine types briefly? There's a lot here. And I'm laughing because people do this with fasting all the time with me. They're like, go through the six different fast. And you know, you get on these podcasts. You're like, really, I've done this like a bazillion times. So I apologize for asking you to do it. But I think it would be helpful for people to understand the nine types. And for those of you, listening, really think, I mean, this is the way I think of it is think of what, as you're going

through them, what hits you, what resonates with you, what sounds like you. And we'll talk about the tests you can take, but if you could go through the nine types. I can. All right. So at the first point, we'll just start with point one to not make it confusing. Point one, I call the idealists. Some people know it as a reformer, but people at, that stand at point one on the Enneagram are people who are very invested in doing the right thing. You find people who have a lot of integrity. And something that's interesting about the Enneagram is that there's specific language that you actually will hear. You know, people who stand at Point One often say, how hard is it just to do the right thing? The search at point one is really about

coming home to the realization that there is good in the world and that everything is not broken, the eye of the one immediately goes to what's out of order. You know, if there was a crooked painting on the wall here, I'd see it, then I'd be sitting here maybe doing like this. Actually, I've learned to relax. I'm sure there's plenty of things crooked in here. Maybe there was no quake. Right, right.

You know, we talked about this in the context of being. business. I've had a lot of ones in work for me. And they are amazing organizers. And they are incredible with detail, which is really helpful for me. Well, they are until they're not. Yeah. One of the dirty little secrets about ones is that nobody sees the mess that they make in order to create that order. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So I often chuckle at that because sometimes when people are describing ones, you know, they talk about all their spices or spices are arranged by in alphabetical order. Oh, gosh.

Well, soon the thing that... No one's in our household. Yeah. Well, you know, in order to find the right system, you recreate it sometimes over and over again. That's not the best way to do it. So I'm going to do it again. So it's really interesting. But ones do like for things to be perfect. They really want to live in a perfect world. So there's a lot of self-improvement, a lot of working on yourself personally. And there's a lot of trying to improve other people, whether they want to be improved or not. And there's a little, my experience with ones is there can be a level of judgment and criticism.

And what I learned is that if you feel like they're judging you, you have to always so remember. they're judging themselves. Absolutely. The ones have what we call the inner critic. All types have an inner critic. But the inner critic of the one is particularly harsh. Yeah. Very, very harsh. So whatever you're feeling coming from a one in ways of it being harsh or judgmental, what the one is doing to themselves really is something that is mirrored back. You know, even if a one comes at you. And I often say that ones have switchblades for tongues. Yes.

Very mean spirited words. It has something to do with, I've tried to bring you along. I've tried to help you. I've tried to teach you. And you're still getting it wrong. So now I'm just going to tell you about yourself. Right. And then you go home and you beat yourself up

because I could have said that differently. The one goes home and does that, yeah, which I think, again, this is the beauty of the enneagram is once I started to understand that and I looked at the ones in my life, I was like, oh, it's got to be painful in their own head because that criticism, I just got a little glimpse of what they're doing to themselves. And it gave me compassion as opposed to wanting to be like, what? You told me that? You said that to me?

Like that's where we now really start to understand each other better. Well, and what I love about what you're saying is it's really important to be aware that when we can go to that place of compassion and empathy for someone, recognizing that that wasn't their best moment. Yeah. You know, and because it wasn't their best moment, we're going to go ahead and allow that person to have. of that day, that moment, as that's what was happening in that brief snapshot of their life. And we don't do that enough. No, we don't. Actually, in this day and age, it's like the canceled culture is everybody like,

oh, you don't believe what I say. You don't think like I. It's really interesting. Okay, what about twos? Toos are lovely twos who are all about love in the truest sense of the word. You know, twos exist really to love. to give and receive love. And so twos, they move through the world looking for ways that they can actually be helpful and loving and kind. Tews are so good at responding to the needs of others,

anticipating the needs of others. But they're terrible at anticipating the needs of themselves. In fact, I can honestly say that when I was actively practicing as the psychotherapist, twos would break my heart. You'd get maybe a yellow two who was going through a divorce, and I might be trying to help her to or him to just sort of, okay, let's just sort of reconstruct your life. Let's look at how you're going to function through this. And I would ask a simple question like, okay, let's set up the weekend. Instead of staying in bed and being depressed. You're going to get up. You're going to go to the kitchen. You're going to make yourself breakfast. What are you going to make? And the response would be, well, when Harry was

there, I would, he was like this egg scrambled, soft scrambled. And then I, you know, I'd always had the cereal out for Johnny. And it's, no, no, no. What do you want? What do you want? Yeah. A lot of women are probably, too. Well, you know what? It's interesting because it's really not gender-specific in terms of the actual enneagram type, but we're socialized. I was just going to say. We're socialized to be choose. Yeah. And so we will go to that default place of learning what someone else wants or needs as wives, as moms, as sisters, as daughters. because that's the stereotypical female role. And unfortunately, if you are a two and you're not healthy,

we'll talk about that more, but if you're not healthy in your particular two energy, you will allow someone else's needs to dominate an overrule to the point where you don't know what you want or what you would have eaten and fixed for yourself for breakfast. You've lost yourself. You've lost yourself. You've lost yourself.

Yeah. The interesting thing about twos, so I've also had a ton of employees that were twos, especially in the healing profession, you know, that twos show up all over the place. But they appear as if they want to help. And it's 100% altruistic. And they're just there to help you. There was a time period that I was like, yeah, everybody should have a bunch of twos around. But if you don't appreciate them, oh, they will turn on you. you and you get this moment of like, wait, what? I thought you wanted to clean my garage. You said

you were going to clean my garage and it brought you so much joy and I was fine with that. And now you're mad at me. Well, it's interesting because twos don't want to be paraded up on a stage and given a trophy or any kind of medal for doing something. That's not really their thing. They want the sincere appreciation. They want the felt sense of the energy of appreciation. Because what they're looking for is love. And the appreciation translates out into relevance. You need me. You know that I do this for you better than anyone else. Yeah. So and twos have a very good BS meter. So if they said they wanted to clean your garage and you let them clean your garage and then they got mad at you, it might be because on some level they're picking up an energy of, you don't really realize how much I do for you. I'm out here cleaning your dirty garage.

You know, I'm not feeling the love. I'm not feeling the love. And two is the type that literally, when I say, I'm not feeling the love, that's what's going on. Yeah. Chuse can be very territorial and very loyal. So if you are their person, you better not hire somebody else to clean that garage. Oh, they want to do it. I clean your garage.

And I clean it better than anybody. else cleans your garage. And now you've hired some person off of Craze List or something, and you've got them cleaning the garage. Well, that's totally disrespecting me. So it's, it's an interesting dance. Yeah. So how do you, how do we have people listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, I have it to in my life? How do you, how do you applaud them, support them in their endeavors to help you? With sincerity. Like, I really appreciate you. Yes. With. sincerity and you need to mean it when you say it. Because something that too often people don't get is that the energy of how you truly

feel is out there without you ever opening your mouth. Right. Yeah. Energy is something that we can't pretend it doesn't exist. Yeah. So when someone says something to you and they're not sincere, twos are pretty, daggone good at figuring out, yeah, you're just using me. Oh, interesting. Wow. Now, that's when that's a situation. There's also the reality that, you know, where is that too in their own personal development?

Yeah. Is it true that you're disrespecting them or are they just feeling low self-worth? Yeah. You know, and I do think that's what I love about the Enneagram is it's very complex. So, you know, we're just kind of skimming over the highlights of it, but I know you have a new book. Enneagram made easy coming out. And so, and the more you dive into this, oh my gosh, it's like a whole, it's like another language. So I appreciate that. Thank you for kind of taking us through the summary of them. But I also want to point out it's a little bit different than like disc profile. I'm sure the disc profile is complex. But it's like, you're. you know, your D-I-S-C and it's very linear. This is, there's so much to understand about all the different versions of these numbers. Absolutely. Yeah. And one of the reasons that I teach and utilize the Enneagram in everything that I do, particularly as a woman, is because once you pick it up and you figure out where your dominant energy is,

then you can begin to do your own inner work. But most importantly is that as you navigate through life and you understand why you do what you do, it gives you the opportunity to make better choices. And I think as women, we deserve that. Oh, absolutely. We deserve that. You know, so much of what we do,

we do because we were programmed to do it. We do it because we were taught that we had to show up a certain way or, you know, we had to do what was popular. We have to look a certain way. So the Enneagram helps you to strip away this programming and to really, like I said earlier, I don't believe in us living our lives trying to be different versions, but just to come home to our authentic selves and recognize that there was nothing about the way that we were created that needs to be fixed or changed. We just need to accept themselves as we truly are. Which is why I would say right now the anagram can be a lifeline for women, because you and I talked about this last week.

I feel this pulse of women waking up and women are understanding, wait a second, this culture that I've been living in is a patriarchal culture. That doesn't mean it's run by men, but it has a power. that has not been supportive of me being my own unique individual feminine self. And when you wake up to that moment, it can be freeing and it can be troubling because you realize that you've completely lost yourself to a culture that didn't really applaud your independence or your or your uniqueness. So again, this is why I love going through what we're going through because for women who are waking up to that right now, where do you turn? How do you find? that. Who am I? These are all so many questions that so many women are asking right now. So I just,

I love that about this tool. I almost feel like you need to write a book called Enneagram for women. I think that'll be next. That should be next. But the Enneagram made easy. One of the reasons that I really enjoyed writing it so much is because I do see women waking up. And I also see that, you know, the feminine and masculine attributes, the energy that exists at all. Agreed. And unfortunately, for so long, the feminine attributes, the feminine energy has been sort of tamped down, you know, suppressed. And we need to bring that back. In my coaching practice, one of the things that I pay a lot of attention to is when I have women who have risen up in their organizations is to coach them not to try to lead like men.

Yes. Do not lead, no. You should do anything like a man. This is like Riza. I say everything. It should be done like a girl. Everything. Exactly.

teaching women to lead like a woman would lead is so important. And if we ever needed it anywhere, at any point in time, it's now. I want not only for women to lead like a girl, but I also want men to acknowledge the feminine energy that exists in them. You know, because really the love, the compassion, the empathy, the ability to discern certain things and to view it through sometimes a softer lens, you know, sometimes a more flexible lens, sometimes a more multitasking lens. We need both of those energies. Absolutely. And I am finding, and it's really something that I laugh about every day, the, male executives that I coach are very comfortable with their own feminine energy.

Because of creation? Because they're creative? They're creative. Their organizations are more successful. Their people are happy. Yeah. And so, you know, it's important to pay attention to the reality that this exists. Yeah. You know, we, I grew up in a time where, God forbid, a man would acknowledge. that he had feminine energy. Right. You know, and now we know everybody's got masculine and feminine energy, and to what level can we bring that into the world to express it?

And, of course, some people who are non-binary are more comfortable with both of those energies. In the world that we live in, at least on this side of the planet, there's challenges to what you can or cannot be. how much masculine energy a woman can have, how much feminine energy a man can have. If you are non-binary, well, what do we do with that? Right. So we have a learning curve to negotiate. Yeah. And the more that we embrace the reality that we have these energies within us, just like we had the nine different Enneagram energies in us, then the fuller our lives become. And the more whole we become, as individuals. So I guess I should go on to type three. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, go on to type three. Because I have some interesting things about three that I think women have gotten caught into. There's, you know, I'm now thinking about all these numbers through the lens of like how women

are operating in the world. So go ahead, explain three. So three is the achiever. Yeah. And so here you see the energy of ambition. Yeah. The energy of success. The energy of wanting to actually be the best. Yeah. And sometimes it's to be the best by any means possible. The three energy absolutely does want to go up on that stage and get the trophy or the medal. The co-author of my books, Lisey, Moandessie, who started working with me when she was 17 years old and has been with me ever since. Is it too? Absolutely does not want to ever be sitting here in this chair, but is so happy to, you know, to just be right there with me in the process of making this come out into the world. But the three energy is the energy that we look at, particularly, say, in the United States of America.

Yeah, we're a three country. You know, go out there, get it done, make it better than anybody else, and succeed. Be successful, look successful, act successful, make it happen. It's an exhausting energy. It is. It's exhausting. And it is the energy that, you know, when you have some of that, it's great. Yeah. But if you're a three and you're three on steroids, so to speak, yeah, there's no time for anything in your life that is going to do anything but feed the goals and the ambition and the power that you. you seek. The threes that I see who are not healthy do burn themselves out. And we all have some three in us. And if we're in the workplace, you know, many of us tap into that three energy.

And it's really hard. This is where I feel like women collectively are in a three energy, because I feel like in order for us to keep up, you know, we've been saying we put us in the boardrooms, give us the same salary. And I'm all for that. And I think for some of us, actually I think for all women, this has been a very big piece of what I've been teaching, is that if you look at our hormones, progesterone, one of the major hormones that drives us, men don't have as much as we do, demands that we rest. And if we don't rest, we burn ourselves out. And what I see with women is that we are in this three energy where we're just, I got to do more. I got to perform more. I got to get more likes and follows on my socials. And that is taking us away from our authentic selves, unless you're a three. Very true. And then the other thing I would say about threes, my mom is a three.

And here's the classic example. She would throw these huge Christmas parties every year. It would be like hundreds of people would come to our house. the days leading up to that were sheer hell in our house because everything had to look good, everything had to be clean. For days, Mom was yelling at us saying, clean this up, do that. And then the minute the first guest walked in, she was the hostess with the mostest. And we were like exhausted in the corner like, you have no idea what the hell went down here for the last three days.

And every person would leave that party and they'd be like, this is the best Christmas party. I come to all year, and my sister and I would be like, of course it is, because that's what my mom does is she makes everything the best and it's exhausting. Well, it's funny because threes and ones are look-alike types in that way. You just describe Christmas at our house. Oh, yeah. And the kids are growing up. But that's the beauty about getting a little bit older and coming into another season because now it's like, yeah, what plates do you all want to use? Right.

Just get one out of the kitchen cabinet. I don't care. Yeah, my mom's not like that anymore. Yes. And also another way that you can tell the difference in the type, because that three energy of everything being the best. Yeah. You know, that just really is something that is hard to let go of. Yeah. Now, that's the work of the three. Yeah. Rather than making sure that everything is the best. Right. You know, a one, it's got to be perfect. The three is. it's got to be the best. So it's got to be better than it was last year. Oh, wow. It's really important to, you know, kind of keep upping the Annie. I did it this way last year. I think that we're going to have not just soup, but we're going to have soup and I'm going to put the, let me see, I think we'll go ahead and have a special appetizer that I've never made before. And so, your favorite was the thing that came out of my mom's mouth all the time. Like, this is

the favorite. This is the favorite. Like, yeah, it's incredible. Okay, what about the four? So the four, it's really, I'd love to talk about the four because four was a particular energy that I struggled with when I was learning the aneogram. I thought of it as a very sad type. And I always have to give credit where it's due. Russ Hudson, who's a good friend and very much was a teacher and mentor as I was learning the aneagram. he said one day that fours are the holders of the beauty in the world. Oh, yes. The fours I know.

Yeah. Yes. And it changed my whole perspective on the four energy. And not only are fours the holder of the beauty in the world, but at a price. To them. To them. At a price. So fours hold a certain reservoir.

of melancholy that's kind of with them all the time. The fours that I have known and worked with and taught and studied with have a ability to go right back to a moment of sadness at any point in time, and they can be in that painful place again. You know, for your eye, if we suffer a loss, the morning that we wake up, and we're not thinking about that loss, we say to ourselves, okay, I'm getting through the grieving process. We're at point four, when there's a recognition that they're not thinking about that anymore, there's a feeling of, I'm losing touch with this person that I love.

I used to be. Yes, exactly. So it's fascinating. One of the ways that Fours manifest, in the world is by using that energy to create some of the beauty that we all get to appreciate. Most Fours have some creative ability, whether it's writing or dancing or, you know, art. I was going to say, like, I mean, we're here in L.A., like, a lot of Hollywood is probably Fores. Yes, not uncommon to be able to, you know, get up on a stage or in front of the screen and do something. amazing, you know, just an amazing transformation. It's like transmuting the pain into something beautiful and bringing it out into the world. My other experience with Fores, and this is something that has really helped me, again, and understand the Enneagram,

is they feel like nobody understands them. And I will hear that from my friends that are Fores, that they'll, you know, like, I have an intuition about something that nobody else understands. How do you help that person? Because, you know, I feel like, well, I want to understand. Talk to me about that. I'm here to be present with that. And there does tend to be a little bit of like, I can't explain it to you. Right. It's something to think about is in many ways we don't understand because we're not for. They never understand. But we still have four energy. Yeah. So of course, the more. work that we have done as individuals, the more, the closer we come to being able to understand. Yeah. What the point for energy is saying from that space is really, what you don't understand is that

life for you is just easier than it is for me. I can't really put it into words, but it feels like your life just seems so much smoother. You know, there's not the same level of complexity. I'll give you an example. We were on a vacation one year, and we were with another couple, and the woman, the wife, was, is a four. and her husband came down and put her purse next to her and took her suitcase out to put in the car. My husband came down and took my suitcase and my purse and put it in the car. We got in the car, we were driving out, and my friend said, where's my purse?

And her husband said, I don't know, I brought it down, I gave it to you. and she said, well, I didn't realize it. And she said, do you have your purse? I said, well, I do. Yeah, Jean brought it and put it in the car. And I saw this look of frustration that went across her face, and we talked about it later. And what she said to me just explained it beautifully. She said, I don't envy the fact that your husband does love.

little things for you the way that he does. I'm so glad you have that. I see it all the time. I just wish that I had a little more of that in my life. That people would just do these little things for me without me having to ask for it, you know. So. So random acts of kindness before. Random acts of kindness. Exactly. It's like it's a lens that says people are kinder to you than they are to me. Because they're feeling misunderstood. Yes. So any kind of act of kindness like that says, hey, I understand you or I care about you. Yes. And language is important. Yeah. You don't really understand, but you do care about them. That's right. Okay. Yeah. So, yes. So, and here's, here's another funny thing to think about, you know, sometimes children who are going to grow up to be

fours are the easiest to identify. Because fours do not want. You know, sometimes children who are going to grow up to be fours are the easiest to identify. Because fours do not want to be you. They don't want you to try to make them you. They just want to be true to who they were created to be. I think I have one of those children. And the funniest thing is, you know, if you send a four child to a school where they have to wear a uniform, by the end of the school day, when they're coming out for you to be, you to be a school child, you to pick them up, they've done something to that uniform to make it look unique. Oh, my God. They don't want to look like everybody else, okay?

So the skirt is just kind of pulled up on one side and tucked the waistband or they've put the shoes on the wrong feet or one sock is up and one is down or, you know, some little strange thing has been done to the hair. There's just this laugh. What is it? The series that's out now, Wednesday. Oh, yeah. Wednesday is a four-chum. Wednesday's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny because, again, not trying to type my children, but I would say that my daughter has a four energy. She's so creative. She's such a good painter. And when we went into middle school at a private school, she can't, we really wanted her to go to the school. She got accepted. And she said, I don't want to go there because I think they're going to stifle my creativity. There you go. And I was like, okay, that's pretty profound. We're not going there. But in my my head, I was like, how do you know that in the seventh grade? So that is a really interesting analogous story. I love that about four because the four that exists in all of us at the

healthy level is something that we need. Yeah. It's knowing who you are. Yeah. You know, it's knowing yourself, knowing what you need, knowing what is going to actually help to move you forward. Right. Or what may feel stifling. Yeah. And fours are very good at giving voice to that. Yeah. The floors in my life really teach me the full emotional spectrum. And now that I have understand that, I'm like, I'm grateful for that. And I'm in awe.

They're artistic capabilities, too, is profound. So, okay, the five. The five. Okay. So one of the things that I will say is two, three, and four are in the heart center. Very different ways. Two's. It's about, you know, am I worthy, you know,

Do you, am I worthy of love? Three, it is, do you see how hard I work for love? And with fours, it is, will I ever be able to have love? Okay. When we move from four to five, and I take the time to explain this, when you look at the actual Enneagram symbol, there's a big gap between four and five. And the journey from four to five is what we sometimes call the dark night of the soul. Yeah. Because when you go from the heart center to the head center,

there's a journey. You know, there's a shock point. Yeah. And, you know, who has not had a conflict between their head and their heart? Yeah. You know, it's like, I love him so much, but I know that he's not good for me. But I want him so badly, but I know he's not good for me. Yeah. So it's that shock point, that journey from the heart space to the head space, that it's profound. And when you look at it, even to see whether you reside in the heart center or the head center or the body center, which will go back to. But five is when you arrive at the head center. Yeah. And fives see the world in an entirely different way. The Five lens is the big picture.

I like to think of the movie A Beautiful Mind in that moment when he was looking at the way all of the dots connected, you know, and it could see it in his head. The Five really wants knowledge, wants information. And, you know, if you say to a five, what's more important knowledge or power, it's not even a question. You know, it's, well, how about knowledge or money?

You know, it's still not a question. It's knowledge. It's information. And they're always seeking to gain more knowledge. With the knowledge, they can have the other things that they want. but fives tend to not have a lot of needs if you learn, just to learn to understand. Fives don't like to be told to do something and given a little piece of information and told to just do something with this little piece of information.

There's a need to know where it began, where it is now, and where it's going in the future. So as a result, a five will take the really deep dive. Another thing about fives, for anyone that's listening that may say, yeah, I kind of like knowledge. I'm thinking that could be me. Don't disrespect a fives information. Don't do that. Their information, their work that's been done on trying to figure something out, and when it's given to you if you are dismissive, Five Energy takes that information back and keeps it very

close to the chest and doesn't share it anymore. Why? Because they suffer fools. Yeah. Interesting. Very seldom. Do not, do not disrespect a five's work. Yeah. Because usually they've put a lot of work. A lot of, yeah. A lot of more. Yeah. They really have. And there's also, So there's a bit of intellectual arrogance. I was just going to ask that because I'm thinking of some people who I know that are fives as their primary number. And there is a little bit of that, like, I know so much. It's just too difficult. I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.

Yeah. So, you know, every type has some of that. Yeah. That goes along with their energy. With five, it's, there's no way. I can explain this to me. Yeah, it's too deep. And if you are not a person that they can see will actually appreciate the information that

they're trying to share with you, then at that point, it's like, yeah, I'm out, you know, I'm out. So, and this is true of fours and five. You know, if you go to a cocktail party and someone comes over to you and they start talking to you, you have no idea what they're talking about, you know, and then eventually they just sort of drift off. Yeah. Well, and you're...

That's a five. Yeah, you're thinking to yourself, I'm not sure what they said, but that was really deep. Yeah, right, but they knew what they said. They knew what they said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they tend to know a lot about many things,

but there's usually something that, very specific, something where there's the deep dive. They're like the specialist. They're really the specialist. Yeah, yeah. So that's the five. Yeah.

What about six? Six. So the energy at 0.6 is very anxious, primarily because 6 is the energy of worst-case scenario thinking. And I have a lot of compassion and empathy, of course, for all of the nine types, because there's a different reason why we would go there. But when I think of six, I think if I could come up with worst-case scenario thinking for everything, That's got to be really difficult. Yeah. But a healthy six learns what to do with that.

Yeah. And the worst case scenario thinking actually creates the sense of urgency around preparedness. So if there's ever going to be a natural disaster or something, you know, you want to know who your six friends. Yeah, you got to find, just like if you're at a party, bring your two. So the two can out. Exactly. There's a natural disaster. Grab your.

I had a six friend because they know the escape routes out of the city. I guarantee you they've got everything in the trunk of their car that's going to be needed. One of the stories that I love to tell about sixes, one of my dearest friends in Spain. And Lordis speaks some English and I speak some Spanish. And we communicate to the best of our ability, but we love each other beyond words. and we were on a cruise one time, and I always tell people, this is my story, and I'm sticking to it. I skipped the third grade where you learn geography, so I'm geographically challenged. All I knew was we were taking a South American cruise for Christmas, and I was not prepared to go around the cold part.

Oh, gosh. Okay, so we wake up one morning, and I look out, and I see sort of icy water, and, you know, and I'm going, what the heck? He said South America. What did I pack? Shorts, bathing soup, sunglasses. Oh, my gosh. I hear this knock on the door and it's Lordus.

And she has a jacket and a hat and some gloves. And she looked at me and in her best English, she said, I brought these for you because I thought you might not remember that we would be cold for part of the cruise. Oh, wow. And it's good six. And I think about that all the time when I'm teaching because it was such a precious moment and I'll never forget it. But that's not unusual of the sixth energy. Yeah.

You know, if you say you have a headache and you're around someone who happens to be a six and you say, I have a headache, it's not uncommon for a six to say, well, what do you need, alleviate, exegedrine or aspirin? You know, because if they're carrying it there in their back. Yeah. You know, it's just. They're prepared for every moment. Yeah. Prepared and loyal. Yeah.

Loyalty. I've seen that in this. The loyalty is fierce. The loyalty. I often call Six's last human standing. Yeah. Because at point six, they're going to stay the course. And they're going to be prepared for all of the possibilities that nobody else thought

of. Yeah. So that's, you know, when the beauty sits. You know, the six is interesting because, well, and as we move into the seven, we'll talk a little bit more about my energy. But I used to have a stronger six wing. And we used to think my son was a six. I'm not sure actually what he is. And now that I'm thinking this really should type himself.

But, you know, when he was younger, we took him skiing one day. And a lot, we went skiing a lot. And he was like four years old. And there would be a bunch of us skiing down a hill. And I had him in between my legs doing the pizza pie. And he would be so athletic. And he'd be yelling at me. He'd be like, you're going to kill me.

And like, we're going too fast. And I'm like, I'm not going to kill you. We're going to be fine. Like there was so much fear that would go through him. Yet he would do it anyways. And I used to always think, well, at that time, I was like, wow, he's really very much a six, has that sort of six energy. And then the worst case scenario I really resonate with because I feel like I've been in multiple times of my life where I'm like, well, let's make sure we're really clear

on all the horrible things can go wrong. And if we can fix those, then I can relax. And so I find that interesting. But both of us, both my son and I are fiercely loyal. We are, that is to a fault. Like, you know, I will be, there will be people who have worked for me 20 years ago that showed up in a way that was so, I was so appreciative of if they show up at my front door, I would do anything for them. And he is exactly the same way. Now, I'm not a six. I don't know what he is, but that six energy of loyalty and worst case scenario, I really resonate with that. Resonied with it. But six energy is an energy that will do it afraid. Yeah. They'll do it aflick, you know. They might be screaming, you know, you're going to kill me, but they're still there. They're still there. Oh, he didn't move from it.

And he would say, let's do it again. It was really interesting. And yell, you're going to kill me all the way down all over again. We'll just keep telling you that you're going to kill me, but we let's keep going. Well, an important thing, because you talked about your energy, which we're going to next, which is seven, but the influence of six. So just for people who are listening, being aware that, yes, we have a dominant energy and then we have an energy on either side, which are the numbers that are on either side of that dominant energy. And the way that I explain that is, you know, your dominant energy is like the steak. Right.

And the energies on either side are like the seasoning. You know, some people like their steak just naked. Right. You know, but some people like a little terriaki sauce. Other people just want salt and pepper. So there's an influence that comes from what we call the wings, which are. Right. And I have taught people, you know, when I'm doing Enneagram work, that you, that we're absolutely

bingwool. Yeah. By wing wool. By wing wool. Well, and that's what I mean, it's so people listening, if they're like, well, I sound like a lot of those numbers, you can be that primary number and then you can move to your wings. So you could be close to a number next to you. Yes, you can absolutely access the energy. And that's what I want people to do to recognize that your primary energy does not change. You're not one type at work

and another type at home. You are what you were born to be. However, there are different influences and some of the influence can come from your wings and other things as well. So then we move on to seven. That bat's number. That bat's number, of course. And I'm a newly born again. Yes, a born again seven. I know.

Well, anyone who watches you, anyone who loves you can see the seven energy. You are enthusiastic. You are passionate. you throw yourself into what you're doing and you're contagious. You're literally contagious. Your energy is so uplifting that, you know, it just makes people want to follow you. One of the things that when I was in the early days of studying the anagram and I was going around trying to figure out the numbers that, well, maybe I'm a seven.

I've always had seven in envy. Thank God. I was going to say, does everybody want to be a seven? Not everybody. Some people want some of the other qualities. But the thing, I remember that one of the people that was studying with me that knew their particular type at the time, and I didn't know mine. And he said to me, he said, well, you know if you were a seven. I said, well, how would I know it was a seven?

He says, sevens just have it. And they know they have it. I said, well, what's it? He said, I don't know, but seven's no. Ask a seven. And I thought, yeah, okay, I'm not sure what you're talking about even. But there is something about the energy of the seven. It's the high vibration.

You know, it's the way that whatever it is, if it's possible, even if it's impossible, sevens feel like, they can make it possible. Oh, I don't think anything's impossible. But like, I rest my case. Literally, I'm like, in my brain, I'm like, everything is possible. Yeah. And all of those ideas of how it could be possible go through your brain. Yeah. So you know what I said to you, more ideas before breakfast than most people have in a lifetime. But I didn't say more good ideas. Yeah, for sure. Just more ideas. All right. So seven. often has white lightning, you know, coming out of the head. The challenge for seven is recognizing

that you can do painful things and you won't get trapped there. Okay, tell me that more. You can do things that are painful, things that are sad, things that are hard. And come out of it. And come out of it. Got it. Got it. You won't get trapped there. So sevens operate almost like they have some sort of radar. And when things are going down, Sevens can sense it energetically and they're up and out of there. Oh, yeah. We don't like pain. Don't like pain at all. Yeah. Don't like pain. That's how you were confusing the pain with conflict. Yeah. That's how you could think that you were another type. Yes. Because it feels like conflict avoidance. What it's really, it's pain avoidance,

discomfort avoidance. So that's different from just conflict. A sevens can do the heck out of conflict. Yeah, yeah. So, you know. You know what's interesting? I would say, though, and maybe going this long,

not knowing I was a seven, I have learned so much from my four friends. Yeah. I really, and from having what could be, I'm going to let her type herself, but maybe my daughter being a four is, and just I am in ad, of the ability to go into those deeper, darker emotions because I don't naturally crave that.

And I want to know, like, how do you survive that? How do you go in there? So they've taught me a lot about opening up that emotional spectrum. And then once I've gone there, I do want to come back to positivity pretty quickly. And the good thing is allowing yourself to go there. And it's wonderful that you had the guidance of force. You know, because Forrest can do empathy and pain. Oh, so well.

Very well. Yeah. And we'll stay with you, you know, we'll stay with you and get you through it. But, you know, sometimes sevens to me get a bad rap because there is a lack of understanding. And sevens are made to feel like they are too much or sometimes even described as flaky, which is really annoying. You know, it's annoying when you stereotype any of the energies. But for instance, what will happen with a seven is when they have not matured into a space where they understand how to work with the energy that they have. There is an avoidance of pain.

And that avoidance of pain is real. Yeah. Because they don't know how to do it. Yeah, because they don't have that skill. They don't have it yet. And all of us are on any given day, I really give sort of a free zone for people to try to understand that most of the time, we're just doing the best we can. Right. You know, if we knew better, to quote Maya, Angela, if we knew better, we would do better.

Yeah. But if we don't know better, then we just do what we know how to do. So you know that pain is uncomfortable, you stay away. Well, a common scenario may be, you may have a parent that ends up going to the hospital, you know, like hospitals. I did that just two weeks ago. I don't do hospitals. I'll take care of mom when she comes home.

Don't make me go to the hospital. And people will say, well, that's just awful, you know. Your mother, your father's in the hospital. Just go to the hospital. Well, you don't even know why you don't like hospitals. You just know that there's an energy that you step into that you don't know what to do with. Yeah. This is one of the many reasons that the N.

Aneagram is deliberating. Yeah. Because now you understand, okay, I'm a seven. This stuff is hard for me. Yeah. But when you understand it, then you can deal with it. Yeah. And you can take the steps that you need to take to be able to.

It's so funny you say that because so my mom just had shoulder surgery and my dad and I at the end of a very long day are sitting in the waiting room waiting for her to come out of the surgery and it's taking like an hour longer and he's a seven and he's pacing up and down and I turned him and I was like, you know, the two family members were the worst ones to be sitting here. And he's like, I know. I'm like, it's okay. As dad, we're going to be fine. So it's funny. You use that example. Yeah, that's, you know, and like I said, that would make another member of the family frustrated with you. Yeah. Yeah. It's your mother. Right. Go to the hospital and sit there.

You know, it's that kind of thing. But all of these things, you know, as you begin to look at the operating system, we recognize that that skill isn't there. Right. You know, it hasn't been developed. But it's a good thing to learn what skills we're missing, what things we need to work with. in order to just be better humans. Yeah, exactly. So then we move to the...

Yeah, go to the eight. The eight. So the eight, the challenger, large and in charge, like to be in control. And eight also can get a pretty bad rap because eight's, seven and eight energy are the two energies where you're told that you're too much. You know, tamp it down, not so much. sit still, be quiet, whatever. But with eight, the energy can be more controlled, and there's some strategic watching, looking around, you know how sometimes you hear that men don't like to sit with their back to the door, you know, there are a lot of men that really,

a lot of people that don't like to sit with their backs to the door. And eight would be a likely person to necessarily want to sit with their back to the door. Eights really are very oriented towards safety and security. They want to keep themselves safe. They do not like vulnerability. So an eight is not the person that wants to fall into your arms and cry. They're not the people that want to bear their souls about everything and anything. they're selective.

They've got pretty good boundaries. Very good boundaries. And the boundaries are firm. Interesting when sevens and eights are together because eights have firm boundaries, sevens have not. Yes. Boundaries is something I'm working on for sure.

Boundaries is a challenge. But with the eight, the challenger, just like the seven sees possibility in everything, AITS also believe that they can do whatever needs to be done. Yeah. They can do it. They have the can-do attitude.

They do not like to sit around doing nothing. They want to get something accomplished. They don't want people sitting around them doing nothing. And what AITs really do not like is weak leadership, particularly weak leaders over them. because if you're a weak leader, you may get me and my people hurt or mess things up for us in a way that I'm going to have to deal with later. So, AITs admire strength, and they try to be really bastions of strength. They like to show up in a strong way. Not every eight is outrageously angry all the time.

I get a little frustrated with the stereotypes that people throw out there. When you have an eight taking care of you, then you are protected. Oh, you're totally protected. You are protected. Eight is going to make sure that nobody gets to you and no harm comes to you. So the control is not always just about controlling people like turning them into puppets. But the control is very much about, I'm going to control the environment, here. I'm going to keep my people and myself safe and from harm. And I'm going to try to do that

without really always creating a disruption. But sometimes, because eights can be so direct, what they say and the way it lands, they don't hear it the way others receive it. Yes. It's very, yeah. Yeah. So what an eight calls a conversation. Yes. Is often received as a confrontation. Yeah.

And once an eight has confronted something, there's no backing down. Uh-huh. So, you know, if you confront an eight and you realize this may not have been a good idea. and you start trying to back out of the argument, the eight keeps moving forward. Because now you've put it out there, now we need to finish it. Now we need to talk about it. No, we're going to talk about this until it's done. Right.

And the other energies are saying, I really, I didn't mean to open this up. And I'm really not trying to have this conversation. But if you open it up, in eight wants to finish it. So there's a very direct style of communication. And some people, like I said, take it as aggressive and caustic. And sometimes it is. But the intention when given the benefit of the doubt is just to clear the air and to speak truth. And it's speak truth to anyway, anyone.

Whether it's up or down the ladder, it's, you know, just tell it like it is. Yeah, they don't want you to mince words. No, don't want you to miss it. Yeah, say it. Tell me, I can take it. We can move forward. Yeah. So both my sister and my husband are eights.

I'm very familiar with eights. What I admire about eights is they don't seem to care what other people think of them. They care very much. Oh, really? Okay. So that's like a facade. Yeah. That's interesting.

Okay. So the reason that it's believed that they don't care is because eights have very soft hearts. And to show any sign of weakness or like I care what you say is to show my heart. And if I show you my heart, you may wound me. I'm not letting you get there. I'm not letting you go that far. I'm not letting you go that deep. Right. And I think I shared with you earlier that one of the hardest things, even as a therapist, for me, is watching an eight who has, you know, just sort of broken. Yeah, got their hurt, you know, wounded in the heart and, and they don't know what to do with it.

You know, it's like there's a whole sort of disintegration at the core that's very painful to watch. So if you know, and not all eights know that, you know, everybody doesn't know the aneagram. Yeah. So you have people who are walking through the earth who are aneograms, who are eights on the and that they have that energy and they know that they don't let people get but so far. They kind of keep people at an arm's distance. They don't know why they're doing it, but it has to do with not wanting to have that vulnerability. Right.

You know, don't stab me in the heart. Don't stab me in the back. Trust is also very important. Yeah. Trust and loyalty. The number. The number I used to think I was, and I'm no longer this number. I feel so free. Sorry for all the nine out there. I know. I know. I know. Nine is a lovely number. I am personally acquainted with nine. I am in love with and married to a nine. And for all of the, of all of the energies on the enneagram, the nine is the most approachable. You know, they just have sort of a layback, calm, easy-going,

meaner until they don't. Yeah, until the rage comes down. Until the rage comes down. But nines move through life sometimes in a fashion where they're kind of sleepwalking. That's how they can stay so laid back and calm. It's don't disturb my peace. It used to be a song, don't disturb this groove. It makes me think about nines, you know.

Everything is just kind of going and I'm going to go. with the flow, and please don't mess up the flow. When you mess up the flow of a nine, then, you know, you get the grumpy nine and you don't want to have to deal with that. But one of the things that's interesting about this piece that the nine tries to maintain is the way that they maintain it. And part of that is by detaching, by disconnecting. Nines, most nines that I know, admit to having caves.

The cave may be their car. You know, they'll come home from work and they'll sit in their car listening to the music for 20 or 30 minutes before they get out of the car and go into the house before they enter the chaos. The nine is the one who's really saying, why can't people just get along? Yeah. Because they want the peace for themselves. They can't have the peace if there are other people interrupting the peace all the time. Right. And as human beings, we love to interrupt people's peace.

Yeah. So, Nines perfect routines, many of them, going from one place to the next without having to think about it. Oh, because then everything moves. Then everything moves smoothly. I tell this story about how when we lived in Maryland, my husband would get up in the morning on the weekends and he had his routine. he would go and, you know, gather the clothes. He was going to take to the dry cleaners, and then he'd wash his car, and then he'd go to the dollar store.

And he just had a routine, get his coffee. And you know how houses have one squeaky step? Yeah. You know, I would wait until I heard that squeak on the step, and I'd jump up out of the bed, and I'd say, honey, would you mind taking this blouse to the cleaners when you go? and he would look at me like I was holding a shotgun. And I would think, for the longest time, I just couldn't understand. He was going to the cleaners anyway. Right.

What I recognized was now, when he went into the cleaners, he was going to have to have a conversation with the person behind the desk because she liked my clothes. And then she was going to want to know, where did she get this? And, oh, this is lovely. And, well, do you think that she's going to, oh, I don't know if I want to get this spot out because it might mess up the material. All those decisions.

All the, he doesn't want to hear that. He wants to drop off his bag that has the same stuff in it and walk out and then go on and get his coffee and then continue his sing. But now he was going to have to wake up and interact with this other human being. And I would just chuckle because I'd just wait for that stare to sit. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

That sounds like a mean trick. Oh, why? That was so much fun. So, so one, thank you for going through all that. And I, and as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, this is going to be such a great episode for people to really just get a real good understanding of the depth of the, of the enneagram. And I hope that people not only hear themselves in it, but they hear their loved ones in it. Because at the root for me, what I truly feel is that it gives us compassion for our differences. That is correct. That is the, You know, if there was ever something that was devised to come into the world to help us to understand love and have more compassion for one another. It's if there was such a tool, you know, and I want to, I want to say this carefully and intentionally because the anagram does not override your religion, your faith, anything that you believe. actually supports. It undergirds any faith, any type of connection that you may believe that you have to higher intelligence or higher power. It shows you a system of how people view the world differently. And it shows you where they struggle and what.

may be hard, what makes their lives difficult, and it allows you to have empathy and compassion for yourself and for others. I know that in the early days of studying the Enneagram, as I would go through each type, and I would hear about the struggle of each individual energy on the anagram, I would weak. Yeah, because we all have struggle. We all struggle. They all struggle. And they're struggling different. Yeah. They do.

We all have struggles. They're just different. Yeah. And what's beautiful about it is that you, when you recognize how different someone's struggle is from yours. Yep. You recognize that pain is pain. Yeah. It may be different, but it's still painful.

Right. And sometimes it's easier to have compassion and empathy for someone else than it is to even have for yourself. Yeah. And it is to even have for yourself. Yeah. That's one of the reasons that I teach. You have to look at yourself first and heal your own wounds. Because if you're too wounded, you can't have empathy for other people.

Yeah. So. So talk about your two books. You have one coming out. And then you have one that's really, you know, so important, such important topic. So talk a little bit about this. So coming out March 5th is Enneagram Made Easy. That's for everyone who doesn't know the anagram.

And it gives you all the foundational pieces and elements of the anagram so that you can learn it. And for all the people who have studied the anagram for a while and they've been trying to beat someone that they love over the head and bring them along on the journey, they can just give them the book now and stop trying to force people on the journey. Give the book and this podcast. It could be like a combo. Exactly. Podcast and the book and the book and the book. then leave them alone. People come to it in their own time. So that's a newgram made easy. Pre-order. It's available for pre-order now everywhere. The books are sold. Did you do the audiobook? I did the audiobook. And that brings me to No Justice, No Peace,

which came out last year. But No Justice, No Peace is a book that was written for the times where we're living in right now. And it's K-N-O-W. No, no it. No it. Written by a one. Yes. You better know it. The pointing finger of the one.

But I say it's written for the times that we're living in now because it really is about taking that journey and looking at where you stand and how you're showing up in the world. I believe that each and every one of us has a puzzle piece to. put in place to make the world kinder and gentler and to bring us together and to connect us. And wherever people are marginalized, when we look at the categories of people who are marginalized and where I used the term othering, where we are othering individuals based on race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, any of these things that we have taken and decided to put people over here and push out into the margins of society, we're all doing it in some way, shape, form, or fashion, and we have to look at how that looks. So no justice and no peace really shows you the stages that you go through.

and when you read it, you find yourself. And it's through the lens of the enigram. It's through the lens of the enneagrams. It's the only book that's been written like that, utilizing the enneagram because that's what I believe it is. It's a great unifier. Yeah. It's the great unifier. And we are all connected.

And if we can learn to love and respect one another, one other point that I want to make, because I say this all the time, for so long, we, have revered the concept of tolerance. And tolerance to me is really an outch word. When I hear tolerance, I hear my mother saying, Deborah, I will not tolerate that behavior. I will not put up with that. no one wants to be tolerated. And unfortunately, when we began practicing tolerance, there was a good intent, but we got stuck at tolerance. Tolerance is not acceptance. It's not inclusion.

It's like I'll deal with it. Because I have to. I have to. And we should have evolved beyond that. But if we stay stuck at tolerance, then everyone suffers. And in reality, it's not just people who are marginalized that are suffering. It's the people who are also actually perpetuating and participating in the marginalization because you're doing something to the integrity of the core of your own character

when you oppress or marginalize other people. Yeah. So it's something that we have to begin to look at if we're actually going to create a kinder, gentler world. And if I don't put my piece of the puzzle up, then the people who have the pieces that fit around me, they can't put theirs up either. There is no small action in this. It's just what we all have to come together to do to heal humanity. Okay, so how do people find you? Very easily, Deborah Eggerton.com. So it's D-E-B-O-R-A-H. Egerton has one-G-E-G-E-G-E-R-T-O-N dot com. And there's an Enneagram test. Oh, yes.

It's a quiz. Yes, on your website. On my website. And right after Enegram Made Easy comes out, there will also be the release of the nine, journals. So there's an individual journal for every type. And I think that people are going to have a really wonderful time learning about it. We'll put links for all of that. I'm so excited about that. So, okay, last question. This is a question I've been asking. This is kind of my new season question

because I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of nuance in this one. So what does health, what does health mean to you? And do you have a health goal right now that you're shooting for? Yeah. Health to me, means the ability to be able to actually do what you came here to do, recognizing that this body has to be at a certain place of wellness in order to be able to actually bring something out into the world that is your purpose. And it's not just about the healthy body doing what you have to do to maintain the health and wellness of your own body, but it's also about the health of your personality. So if you're not doing something, if you're not doing any inner work, if you're not looking at the deterioration

of your personality structure, then that's also problematic because I've met too many mean-spirited, elderly people who never caught on to the reality that they were starting to disintegrate in terms of the health of their own being. Yeah, their personality. That's so well set. Yeah. So that's what health means. It's the whole of it, the inner and the outer.

And what was the second? Do you have a health goal right now? My health goal is, and one of the things, I mean, I love you forever because I got off of my arthritis medication after the five days of water fasting, the inflammation in my body left. So that was amazing. And I just, I loved you so much for that. I came off of three medications. Yeah, but I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't contagious Dr. Mindy. Once you start watching you, it's like, oh wait, I'm just going to watch this one more. No, wait, I'm really done. No, wait, look, she's talking about. And then, of course, I passed it on to all my friends. You know, we're

doing it. So that's a wonderful thing. But I also want to get more flexibility. It's grateful. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it. Well, thank you for everything you do. And thank you for just the detail in which you and the thoroughness in which you went through all the numbers because I know that this is a way of freeing everybody. I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it, so please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.