Live Like a Girl with Dr. Mindy Pelz - The Movement Diet: Redefining Fitness at Every Age with Katy Bowman

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

Biomechanist Katy Bowman shares insights on the importance of diverse movement and the holistic approach to physical health. She delves into the concept of movement macros and micros, emphasizing the significance of incorporating various movements like walking, crawling, climbing and everyday activities for strength and longevity. Reflecting on personal experiences, Katy and Dr. Mindy discuss the role of movement in promoting mobility and strength training, especially in older individuals. This episode expands to explore movement, menopause, aging, and health, challenging traditional beliefs and advocating for a nuanced approach to staying active and healthy. Ultimately, Katy highlights the intrinsic motivation in health and movement, encouraging you to embrace movement in a way that aligns with their personal values and aspirations. To view full show notes, more information on our guests, resources mentioned in the episode, discount codes, transcripts, and more, visit https://drmindypelz.com/ep248 Katy Bowman, M.S. is a biomechanist, bestselling author, and founder of Nutritious Movement. She has written many books on the importance of a diverse movement diet including Move Your DNA, Rethink Your Position, Dynamic Aging, and her latest My Perfect Movement Plan coming out July 30. Named one of Maria Shriver's "Architects of Change," Bowman is changing the way we move and think about our need for movement. She has been featured by national media like The New York Times, NPR, and The TODAY Show and has worked with companies like Patagonia, Nike, and Google as well as a wide range of non-profits and other communities, sharing her "move more, move better" message. She is the host of the Move Your DNA podcast and lives in Washington State. Check out our fasting membership at resetacademy.drmindypelz.com. Please note our medical disclaimer.

On this episode of the Resetter podcast, I bring you Katie Bowman. So this is a mind-blowing conversation. I feel like I say that every time, but this one is a conversation around exercise. I promise you have never heard. And partly because of who this beautiful woman is. So let me tell you a little background on her. And then I'm going to talk about what we went. through in this hour-long conversation because I'm still buzzing from it.

So Katie is a biomechanist. So she is really focused on changing the way we move and think about our need for movement. In fact, one of the things we talked about was what's the difference between exercise and movement? I'll go into that in a moment. So she is a global speaker. Her work has been featured in some really huge places like the today. show and CBC radio and Seattle Times and good housekeeping. She was named one of Maria Shriver's

architects of change. And her take on exercise specifically for aging women. Now, she sees this exercise and movement lens through all humans. I brought the conversation through the perimenopause and menopause lens. And let me tell you where this conversation went. So first, there is a difference between exercise and movement. And Katie explains what that is. Second, she has come up with a concept called the movement diet. And I love this.

And she put this in the context of a pyramid. Remember the food pyramid? How we all were like, okay, at the bottom of the pyramid, you need the most of this. And then as you go up, you need less and less. Well, she talks about what the different pillars of movement are that we need on a daily basis. And what's so interesting is when she gets all the way through the pillars, I said to her, well, if I can get this all on a daily basis, do I need to exercise? And so those of you that don't like to exercise or you don't have time to exercise,

please listen through all the way to the end so you can hear her take on this movement diet. and where going to the gym fits in, where lifting weights fits in. Full transparency, I am really upset about in the menopausal conversation right now is, yes, we need to bring back strength training. I agree with that. But we are creating so many have-toes for women as they're going through a hormonal transition that they're just trying to survive. And so the more we talk about, you got to be lifting more weights and you got to be

doing more protein and you got to be doing all this. I don't know about you, but I'm exhausted with it. So many women in the perimenopausal years are just trying to survive. What is the survival guide? And how can we make that guide easy for women as they're hormonally transitioning into their postmenopausal years, which you've heard on this podcast. I strongly believe the postmenopausal years are meant to be our best years. years ever. So how do we navigate perimenopause with ease and love for ourselves and grace? And when it comes to the conversation around exercise, I feel like we are just adding another have to to women. So I want us to change that conversation and look at this through the lens

of this movement diet. And Katie explains it so well. So I'm going to let Katie take it away here, but honestly, I hope that this episode has you re-looking at what you need to do to keep your body healthy as it ages and how effortless and how fun and how creative this could be and how some of the things you are already doing is a part of this movement diet. She has a ton of books. We talk about them. You can go find her on socials. We will leave links in the show notes.

And I know I left this conversation diving in and ordering more of her books so that I can understand her movement diet and why it is the exercise fitness answer. The way I look at it, it's the fitness answer for menopausal women. And that includes Perry and Post. That's how boldly I am convinced that she is on to something. So Katie Bowman, I hope you enjoy this one. Let me know. Welcome to the Resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again. If you have a passion for learning, if you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. I really am excited for this conversation because my background,

is as an extreme athlete. And so as I've aged, it's been a real different vein in which I needed to look at exercise and movement. So I really want to start by welcoming you first, Katie, and thank you for being here to bring this important topic to the podcast. So thank you for that. Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you,

especially now that I know that you're an athlete trying to make a new way. That should pep up our conversation all the more. Excellent. Okay. So with that in mind, a question I've been asking myself, and I feel like I've been intuitively answering it, but I would love an expert's opinion, which is what is the difference between exercise and

movement? I feel like for me, that's now changed. So go ahead. Well, they are different, but they relate to each other. So I would ask everyone to envision a diagram that was a giant circle, and that circle was called movement. And everything. that's a change in your body's position in the change of your tissue's orientation is going to go into that big giant circle. That's what movement is. There's something happening to you on the tissue and the cellular level. Exercise is a smaller circle that sits inside the movement circle. So exercise is a very particular type of movement. So all exercise is movement, but not all movement is exercise. So that's just a mathematical relationship there. Okay. So my next question would be

as we age, what do we need more? Exercise? Like, do we need to just think about movement or maybe the better way to ask it is what else is inside the circle of movement? Let's keep defining what exercise is. So exercise is a smaller circle. Like what qualifies something you're doing with your body as exercise versus non-exercise? So exercise is movement that is done for the sole purpose of improving your physical fitness, your health, your well-being. So it has that intention behind it. And because of that, it usually you have to step away from all other parts of your life to be able to get it done because it's the exclusive thing that's happening. Interesting. You've usually predetermined the mode, what you're going to do. I'm going to take a walk. I'm going to go for a bike ride. I'm going to

take a Zumba class. I'm going to go for swim. I'm going to go for run. You determine for how long you're going to do it. I'm doing it for 30 minutes. I'm doing it for 45 minutes or how far you're going to do it. So it's got this real predetermined, pre-selected set of variables to it. But the intention is really a main piece of it. And then, so let's talk about what sits outside of the exercise box for a second. Let's say you're going to ride your bike to work. So that's transportation. You're not doing that solely for your physical fitness. You need to get to work and you've decided this more physical way of doing it, but that's physical activity. So in fact, physical activity is another circle. And in research for health and wellness,

physical activity is what everyone's trying to increase. Some people can get it through exercise, right? Some people need to supplement their sedentary life with exercise like they would need to supplement their diet with minerals and vitamins, protein powder, collagen powder. Love that. Right? Within their own movement diet, does it? not include the movement nutrients that they need. And so they supplement with exercise, right? They're like, oh, I need to now, I need to work this particular part of my arm. I'm going to do these exercises. But they're non, it's called non-purposeful. There's purposeful and non-purposeful movement. Again, with the exercise, you're lifting weights just for the sole purpose of making that muscle

bigger, to add muscle mass to your body, to improve the strength of your skeleton. but you aren't necessarily stacking wood, right? That would be a practical task. So for many lives, we've gotten rid of all the practical movement. And so we're having to heavily supplement because we don't have this movement in our life anymore. Now, the physical benefits the same, whether you're doing it for exercise or doing it for practicality, but your ability to get enough of it really diminishes when you are

only pursuing exercise. Oh, my God. So interesting. Okay. So let's use my 24-year-old daughter as an example. She is a ferrier. Do you know what a fairier is? I do. I'm from the country. She changes horseshoes for a living. And I have never seen her more fit. And it is part of her job. And it has been interesting. I would look, even though it was part of her job, that she had built a very functional movement, lifting lifestyle. Like, it really, is part of her lifestyle. So she doesn't really need exercise because her day to day is everything from the cardiovascular to the lifting to the thing. So everything she needs on a physicality level is already being pacified through her job. But that's unique. So what I'm hearing you say is actually

the opposite is happening where so many of us aren't creating enough movement in our life, so then exercise becomes more intentional because it's like a supplement for what we're not getting in our day-to-day lives. Is that correct? Yeah, we know I think we need the movement. You know, there's no one arguing about the need for movement. Yeah, that's true. That's one sort of place in the wellness sphere where you can't get a lot of pushback, you know. Yeah. We need movement. We also need different types of movement. So that's why, you know, You're an athlete, so you were probably familiar with the idea of cross-training. Yes.

So you can't really only do one type of movement in the same way you can't really only eat one food or two foods. Okay. The nourishment for those two foods, as good as those foods are, are not enough to give you the spectrum of nutrients that you need, dieterally speaking. Similarly, you need different types of movement to fully nourish you across the spectrum of movement macros and movement micros. Okay.

So with athletes, you know, you would maybe one way to think about it is the shapes that you use with your body. You know, what was your sport? Tennis. Okay, so you're a tennis player. So tennis, you've got a lot of power hitting, you know, so you're really using your arms vigorously in a certain way, dynamic arms. You've got a lot of agility, you know, side to side, front to back. But you wouldn't necessarily be meeting your needs for picking up heavy things or for taking a longer walk. Or for getting down on your hands and knees and being on your knees or your hands.

Yes. And then there would be micronutrients where maybe by only, let's say, eating, physically eating so much backhand, your wrists and elbows would be saying, you're consuming too much of this food. You're getting too much of this vitamin movement. And so we need you to do some physical therapy to learn how to hit with the better part of your shoulder. You need to be bringing in your waist a little bit. Or maybe you can't make tennis the only food you're eating. We're going to give you another sport to play in your off season or some active recovery. So what I just did there was I looked at your movement diet overall. And to say a lot of that movement that you're getting doesn't even need to necessarily touch your tennis time. It needs to happen in the rest of your life around your not. Yeah, the other time. So, so yeah, that's what we're talking about is balancing our movement diet over the macros and over the micros. And one key piece is to keep in mind that anything you do in your life is going to sort into these domains. Sleep, leisure, occupation, transportation, and home. Okay. Everything we do is going to fit into one of those domains. It doesn't necessarily

have to be a place, but it's like a container for the activity that you're doing. Okay. So your daughter is getting her movement diet in occupation has a lot of these movement macros or movement micros. But she's in her 20s, and I would imagine that there's a lot of bending over in the barrier work, a lot of spinal flexion, lumbar flexion. If she only relied on her occupation over time, that part of her body is going to become fatigued. And there's going to need to be other parts that need to be, or at least part of her diet, her movement diet, would be in the leisure category or in the home category when she's done working and she wants to relax physically because her physical activity is high. Her cardiovascular activity has been

higher. Her muscles are sore. She's going to watch net. flicks and do some stretches for her lower back. So she's going to end up supplementing her movement diets while watching TV or maybe she's going to go to a physical therapist at some point who's going to help her show a better way of bending over that lets her use this joint. Exactly. She's had a chiropractor learning that right now. Or a chiropractor, right? So that's alignment. You know you're familiar with alignment, this idea of sometimes our physical activity is high, but our alignment isn't such that distributes the movement well over the body. And so there's these tweaks to your movement diet that make your overall movement more nourishing for your body.

Okay, I love this idea of a movement diet. I know you've written a lot of books where any of called the movement diet. No, your perfect movement plan is where you'll find the whole diet laid out and how to assess yours and what's missing. What do you get in too much of? What do you not get enough of and where in those domains, S-L-O-T-H-S-L-H-L-L-H-L-L-H-L-L-H-L-L-L-Easeer, occupation, and home, can you start looking at your activities of daily living and your lifestyle and not only, again, that exercise category as a source for tending to your body. Okay. Well, I love that.

I'm, you know, and I geek out on the way people put information together in so much so that they can write a book and you've written a lot of books. So my author brain was like, ooh, that's a book right there, Katie, the movement diet, but it sounds like you already got it. So here's my question. Now let's put this through the lens of, you know, a 50, 60 year old woman where our joints are changed. We don't have as much collagen.

So those of us that were athletes are finding, gosh, we have to do things different. But if we put it through the context of, okay, I need to build myself a movement diet, I need to think about that. is there are certain things that we can look at like cardiovascular muscle flexibility like are there categories within the movement diet that we need to hit yes so one way that people have looked at macros for a long time is through that way you were just talking about cardio strength and flexibility right those are you can think of it as kind of equivalent to fat protein and carbohydrate right you got to make sure you've got some yeah strength some cardiovascular

and some flexibility. That's a way of looking at the knees of your body on the, sort of like the tissue type level or the area. Your heart and lungs are their need for movement as big met. Mobility is your joints. Your brain. Yes. Right. All of it. And then for strength, that's muscle. Right. I'm a biomechanist by training. That's my science. And so I organize things more by the shapes that you are in and the efforts that you are in. Because a big issue with only looking at the cardio, strength, training flexibility is it doesn't help someone really drill down. For example, if you take someone who has a labor intensive job or a sport, those are both late groups that labor quite a bit, that you tend to use the same body parts and the

same shapes over and over again. And that's where you get into trouble. that's where you're getting into trouble is using the same shapes. So I have categories of a movement diet. So if you imagine a food pyramid, we can argue about what's on the food pyramid. But if you imagine the food pyramid that comes out from the government, the shape of the pyramid is not really, you can't argue about that. What you need more of is on the bottom and what you need a little bit of is on the top. Perfect.

So when we look at human beings that have got really good cardiovascular mobility and functional strength markers. You're looking at hunter-gatherer population. So I always use an evolutionary lens for my work. So the base of even modern hunter-gatherers now is a lot of active rest positioning. So while we are sedentary, it's actually quite natural to be resting and sitting quite a bit of the day. But we tend to do all of our rest in a chair. So that chair is, particular shape. You know, your hips are at one particular position, your knees are at one position, and if you looked at all the hours that you sit, you're going to find that, whether you're in your car or in your, you know, your occupation chair or your home chairs, the shape is almost identical.

So a big problem for almost everybody is a very large portion in one single shape. And unfortunately, that one particular shape loads the knees in the lower spine and the pelvis and the pelvic floor and the lower back and the upper back in a particular way. Interesting. And so there's nothing really wrong with the sitting position, but it's just like the massive amounts that we're doing it. So when you're resting, when you are in place, I'm not really resting right now,

but part of my work is doing this podcast. So I'm doing it standing. And so I'm getting a different set of movement nutrients than when I was driving over here in my car to my office to be able to do it. I'm trying to find more places to add different shapes to my in-place tasks, whether it's watching TV at the end of the day. You could be just sitting on the ground with your legs crossed, you know, all these things that look like maybe you would go to a class to learn how to stretch your hips, or you would take yoga to keep your lower back and legs more flexible

and you do it for that one hour, but it wouldn't occur to you to kind of use those shapes in your own home while you're watching TV at night. Right. Or, you know, if you're checking emails. Okay, so when I'm thinking through the lens of shapes, I love this, by the way, and I love looking at everything through hunter-gatherer primal. That's all my teachings have been like I always go back to, well, how did they do it in the hunter and gatherer days?

Yeah. So I love that we're having that aspect of this conversation. But I see three shapes in my life that I can pretty much guess. There's the standing up version of me. There's the sitting down version. of me and there's the laying down version of me. So what I'm hearing you say is that I've limited the shapes of me and that diversity of shapes is going.

So if I'm watching TV, could I do it sitting in a squat or sitting on the ground with my legs forward? Like, is that what you're meaning about let's expand our shapes of how our bodies are living on a daily basis? Exactly. And so there's the shape and then there's the effort in the shape. But for this base of the pyramid, active rest positioning is a big shape. And so there's, you know, as you said, sitting with your legs out in front of you or your legs wide or your legs crossed or your legs to one side. You can be up on a pillow. You could be on a low stool. Even if you perched on a low stool standing,

you know, there's lots of different ways. So if you can play around with that big base, you'll be breaking up. What you said kind of made me laugh because there was this book I loved when I was a kid. it was a mystery book, but some guy always talked in riddles and they're like, what's your position on this? And he said, well, it's standing or sitting when not lying down. And that's what it reminded me of. And we are sort of always thinking of those as our options. But right above that base layer of active rest positioning, which again, isn't addressing heart and lung movement. Doesn't really take more energy, physical energy. It's just making a different choice. Right above that on the pyramid is walking. Walking is another very large, pyramid amount of movement that we need. That would be another way of looking at your movement diet. I'm like, am I getting enough walking? So that three to five mile a day, and it doesn't have to be speedwalking. Okay. You know, it could be, it's not fitness walking. It doesn't only have to be fitness walking because it's just the, it's called upright locomotion. You've got reciprocal arm swing. You've got legs going back and forth, which really helps the pelvis and the pelvic floor and

the hip joints stay supple. So there's that. Then there's carrying, you know, being able to to carry a load in our arms? When you're walking? Well, yes. I mean, if you could, sometimes when you have young kids, you do a lot of carrying, even if you're not, you're cooking and you're holding. So it doesn't all exclusively have to be that. But really outside of that period of time, unless your occupation is carrying heavy, you know, if you're a lot more carrying in that, or, you know, moving loads around. And then there's making movements. Making movements can be knitting. They can be deep cleaning, anything sort of repetitive that you're using your hands for working in the garden, tool use, woodworking. We have to keep, we don't really give our hands very much attention. And we are really

seeing a decline in hand strength just with the introduction of handheld stuff. And my brain's going crazy now. Okay, let's go back. So the hand movement is above walking. So walking. Yeah. So we started with the position. And then we went to like look at your position. then we're like, okay, the next thing on the pyramid is, are you moving? And you said something, three to five miles a day. Is that what we should be doing in a day? Three to five miles. Yeah, if we look at that hunter-gather model, that's pretty standard for basic daily movement. Okay. And it's not all at once. It's not necessarily like going on a five-mile walk, but it is walking. So it's different than with step counters. Step counters measure different things.

they usually measure arm swing. So, you know, if you're on your feet a lot, maybe you're a teacher. You know, teachers are on their feet quite a bit. Maybe you are moving back and forth. That's different than the mechanics of taking a walk of actually going from point A to point B. So you want some sort of ambulation. You want some sort of traversing to get into that flow of walking. So, yeah, it's, again, it could be three, one mile walks, six half mile walks. If you can put a couple longer ones together great, but don't let that number deter you, you know, of going, there's no way I could possibly do that. Well, here's why I'm obsessed with walking now. And I'll tell you why I used to be a runner. I went from being an avid tennis player to running. And I was running marathons and half

marathons. And then I started getting injured when I got into my perimenopausal years. And I was out running one day and this thought hit me, which was, why don't you just walk? Like, why do you have to run. At the same time, I was doing some research on EMDR, the therapy EMDR, which bilateral eye movement and how it calms the brain. I was doing some research on the amygdala and how walking really helps calm the fight or flight brain because you're moving away. It tells your body you're moving away from a stressor. And if you scan the horizon as you're walking, you're actually creating this calming effect in your body. This was all around the pandemic, by the way. So literally during the pandemic, go out in my neighborhood and I would just walk and walk. Anytime I got anxious, I would walk.

And so, but my athletic brain was like, did you work out today? Like, you just walked. Finally, I realized, you know what? It's the most important, I'm going to call this workout, forward movement. It's just a forward movement exercise is what I told myself. And my athletic brain started to calm down because it wasn't like I was telling myself I was lazy or, oh my God, You just went for two hours of walking throughout the whole day. Now you got to go work out. That wasn't really working out. So I say all that to say I really redefined walking for myself.

And I'm now such a walking fan. Yeah. I mean, even if you look at the hunter-gather model, culturally we're in such celebration of like the warrior, the hunter. We see that and we're like, this is peak. But if you go to this movement pyramid, those behaviors are at the peak. They're traced and they are built on a foundation of all these other things. And we never want to, we never think about the value of the other things. Yes.

And so I do spend a lot of time writing about, you know, every hunter was a gatherer first. Gathering is much more the foundation of what our bodies really require as far as mechanical nutrients and movement nutrients. I mean, we do need, even modern hunter gathering. will get something like 18 minutes, 25 minutes of what we would consider moderate to vigorous. The bulk of this movement is repetitive, very light intensity, but it's done outside. It's usually done in community, right? So you've got that nature and community, all things that are also nutrients for our body and what we need.

Was there sprinting then, too, because you had to run from animals and get a kill? I mean, sprinting had to be in there a little bit. Trace. Yeah, it's trace. I mean, it's trace. And it's in a small amount of the population. So it's not even like there's a hunter-gather person, right? Because there's ages and stages of life, which I know you talk about quite a bit.

And so there are different ages and stages in which you would see more or less of certain things. Yeah. So and something, let's go through the rest of the pyramid. But then I want to bring to you a hunter-gather idea around the, the post-metapausal woman that I've been trying to figure out from a fitness lens. Okay. So we'll come back to that. Okay.

So then the next one was hands because this I've also thought about is where enhanced strength is now considered a real measurement of longevity. Longivity and health in general, yeah. So those are making movements. So in the hunter-gatherers, it's, you know, making fires, food ingredients take so much a mechanical conversion to become something that you can eat and digest. So peeling and you can create a lot of making movements in your own kitchen by not buying pre-shed carrots and not buying so much pre-moved food.

You know, the more raw you get into it, then the more you're like, oh, when I'm buying, we think of saving time, but really all those time savers are movement savers. They're movement savers and they're not even money savers because they're usually more expensive because you paid someone else to stand in the factory to shred the carrots or whatever, you know? So we talk about whole foods and I mean like literally whole food. foods, whole foods for the ingredients, and then whole and is close to their original shape as possible. And then above making movements are big body movements. And the modern equivalent

or the gym equivalent would be like strength training, weightlifting. But it could also be stacking wood. It's shoveling snow. It's anything where you're doing something usually repetitive, digging a whole, you know, moving bags of soil in your garden. I was just going to say gardening. Exactly. Gardening's got a lot of making and a lot of big body work in it. And those are, you know, very protective of muscles. And especially when you're doing it practical functional activities. You're getting not just the lift, but the lift with the twist at the same time and the bend and lift. Your daughter's getting plenty of big body work. You know, so many people who do that are physical labor. Yeah. And I can tell you again, as I've been aging and really thinking about protecting my body, I've noticed on that big, big lifting things is I have a very accommodating husband and a son who always wants to help me when I can't lift something up. And it can be as simple as, you know, I travel a lot. I'm going to carry my suitcase downstairs and carry my suitcase up. And it's so easy to ask them to help me. They're right there and they want to help me. And there's been this little voice in my head that's

like, no, carry it up yourself. So that would be example of on the movement diet pyramid. We have to make sure we continue to lift heavy things and move heavy things. Yeah. It's a, it is a, if you think about like someone else doing all of your protein for you, it doesn't work. You have to do it yourself. So we need our, we need to do a portion of our own big body work every day. Certainly there's things that come up, injuries and maybe you need to take a break from it. But, but yes, I think you want to look at it and say, this isn't a task that, well, it does burden you. It is literally burdening you. And that's why you get the effect of being. being able to be burdened. So if you always offload or outsource that, then you become unable

to be physically burdened. And so that's what exercise is, is choosing those stresses so that you are able to do them in the future. Yeah. Okay. Wait, can I ask you one more question? Yes. Okay, let's go back to the hand thing because I want to put this in like a daily context so that people understand this isn't hard. Chopping, cooking and chopping. That's hand. Like carrying things with your hand, you know, like anything that's going to involve some hand strength is what we are talking about. So making sure that you're constantly sewing, you know, cleaning, cleaning dishes, unloading the dishwasher, pulling dishes out. That can be hands. I mean, I've, I got one thing we talk a lot about in this community is lowering our toxic load. And so things like what pans do you use in your kitchen?

And now you have me rethinking cast iron pans. Like, they're my favorite. And now they actually fall into the movement diet. And they're heavy. Yeah, they're heavy. I had and thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. Being able to, you know, hold, lift up those pans and not, you know, bend the wrist and keep that wrist neutral while you do it. Like that's, there's exercise built in. Our grandmothers who whipped everything by hand, like, they were stronger, you know, like because they were just so used to practicing. You can see a decline in the size, the density of skeletons over time as we've been able to outsource more and more work. Whipping things by hand, I mean, we've really, set up a stepping back from machinery in our household. So like all my kids, if they want,

like, oh yeah, you whip your own whipped cream. You know, if you're, we have hand whisk, we have a handbeater. You can buy brand new old fashioned style equipment like that. Chopping, yeah, I think one of the reasons we don't make some of these beautiful recipes that are within our own heritage is because they were a lot of physical labor. When you look at that and you think, I don't have time to make that. We usually have the time. You know, just go off your phone for little bit or don't watch the show. And it's really, I think, maybe something more innate where our bodies are resisting the amount of handling all the potato, all the peeling, all that stuff. But that is hand use. It's hand, it's hand labor. It's hand strengthening. I love that. Okay. So we have hand use.

Then above that, we have lifting heavy, doing some physical. Hey, is there anything else above that? We've got two more. So we're pretty close. So it's small. So you can think about it's not just a general category, you can see how they relate to each other, climbing and clambering. So that's when you're using your arms in a way that's similar to how you would use your legs. So getting down on your hands and knees to get under the house, you know, deep cleaning where you've got to get down sometimes and you're reaching underneath things. There's lots of exercise that has you get down on your hands and knees, right? Like quadruped and yoga or strength training, that's training you to make sure you're still able to do that, going up and down ladders, going across,

the monkey bars hanging from a bar. These are all places where you're asking your shoulders and arms to our, the word is called brachiate, you know, where breakiation is like swinging on the monkey bars, but you're using your wrists and your elbows and your shoulders in a really strong way. Now, of course, that's a continuum. Going up a ladder is different than climbing a tree. So you can hit and getting on your hands and knees is not as much load, but they're all in that same category of am I able to still depend on my arms to be allies to my legs to move me around? And that's a spot. You listed your three positions. This is very much related to aging and how well your body functions and how able you are to stay connected to physical activities and live on your own.

So it's underappreciated because people will say, I can't get on my hands and knees. It hurts my knees. I can't get to my hands and knees. It hurts my wrist. Right. So we would want to address those now because this is a very practical movement that goes with householding and not just occupation, but just moving through space in a practical, functional, and safe way. Yeah. You know, my dad, when he was like about 84, he had a knee replacement. And I remember helping him the night he had gotten home from the hospital move around. And I noticed that he had trouble pushing up his arms to even lift his body off the chair to move himself around into a new position. And I remember taking note of that.

And it hit me for two reasons. One, I told him, hey, dad, when you get better, we need to get your arms strong so you can functionally do that. And it was a note to myself to make sure that I could always lift myself up and off a chair. And I one time had the pleasure of doing a workout with Ben Greenfield. And everybody was like, oh, my God, it's going to be a killer. workout. For the first five minutes, all he had us do was sit down, stand up. And he had us go to the right, sit down, push up, and then stand all the way up, go to the left. And he said,

it's no use to be fit if you can't get yourself up off the floor. And that was the beginning of really changing the way I looked at exercise. So in this pillar of climbing, I would call it maybe even pulling. You have to learn how to pull. In there, yeah. Yeah. So, So what activities around the house do we have? I mean, climbing ladders, not everybody can climb ladders. Would it be getting something up off the top shelf? Like, give me some activities within our house that we could do that with. Yeah. I mean, someone can fit into the exercise category of just regularly getting down onto your hands and knees. That's the easiest one that everyone would want to focus on every single day. Okay. There's a lot of opportunities to get down on the

ground and sort of move around that we avoid because we don't maybe know that we can't. So like if you have younger people in your house, if you're around little kids or your dogs or grandkids, like getting down there and moving around, play is a really fun space for that. And of course, gardening. If you're out in the garden, instead of standing and sort of bending over at the back all of the time, get down onto your hands and knees and move around a little bit in that way. And if there's yard work that you maybe not or housework that you've outsourced, enjoy it a little bit more. No, knowing that one of the things you're doing is nourishing these parts of your body. And then I am a big fan of a hanging bar, some sort of hanging station in your home. And so we've always had

some sort of place where you can be working on grip strengths and hanging in that way. And that has to be some sort of supplementation because our modern environments just aren't as hanging or upper body rich as like, say, if you went camping, people are tired when they go camping. Yeah. Because there's so much arm and there's so much other of those three shapes that you're used to, right? Even if you're sleeping on the ground versus sleeping in your bed, that's a whole different load set for your body. So could I, for my 84-year-old mom and 80, or eight, she'll be 85 soon, an 88-year-old dad,

could I put a hanging bar in their house and just say, you guys need to hang, you know, a couple times a day. It may be a little too little too late, but would that be a good exercise for people who physicality is declining quickly? Yeah, and I probably don't tend to group people into physicality by age because there's such a range. I've seen plenty of 20 and 30-year-olds with frozen shoulders that can't hang either. So a real simple way would be a doorway reach to start with. And this would be like, I use post-it notes. Every time you walk through a doorway, touch the top of it. Or if you're petite, touch the side of it as hard as you can. And then what you're doing is you're starting to break up your geometry of your shoulders in a stepwise fashion. It's a very common physical therapy

activity like the doorway crawl to crawl to side of it. But if every time you walk through a doorway, you see it as an opportunity to stretch and relate your body to the structure of your house. That's a really great way to start preparing the geometry of the shoulders, nourishing them a little bit. Oh my God. I love this. It's so sensible. It makes sense. It's like, you know, it really is what, like when I found fasting, I was like, this makes sense. We primally thrived without food. And so why did that happen?

And what I hear you saying is like, you know, I have a friend who wrote a beautiful book called Eat Like a Human. And he's a food anthropologist. And he has spent years looking at our ancestors. And one of his chronic statements is our primal friends were crushing their health. and now they got infection and they got eaten by animals and things like that. But from an actual physical musculoskeletal and human body level, they were crushing it in a way that we don't crush it now. And I always thought about that as well.

They had the quality of food, didn't have all these chemicals in it, and they had learned to go periods of time without fasting. But you're now elevating my thought and realizing that actually they were forced to do all these different movements. so they were physically crushing it because they didn't have a gym. They didn't, you know, they didn't have a Pilates class. Like their life was a constant set of these movements that you have broken down,

which is so brilliant. So, okay, was there one more before I ask you about? And that's just the peak. That's like, that's the sprinting. That's the archery. You know, those are those things that when we think of these populations, we think of these peak moves that are relatively speaking, hardly done. Yeah.

And just to show that you're looking at the tip of an iceberg and you want to see the whole thing. And then we try to build it, right? We try to make, we got to make sure we get our peak activities and we're not really paying attention to the base. And that's where all the nutrient density is. And really, if you had to pick one or the other, this bigger base, I think will take you farther, not necessarily in terms of athletic performance, but in terms of just nourishing all of your parts and feeling better and being more practically able to move overall. Okay, so just to recap, the bottom was walking.

Active rest positioning. So that's just, you know, using different shapes of your body when you're sort of in place. Okay. Walking, carrying, making movements, big body work, climbing and clamoring, and then those peak sort of sporty, athletic things at the top. Oh, amazing. Oh, my God. I love that you have created this.

Okay. Here's where I want to go with this conversation next. So I've been trying to figure out the purpose of menopause. And because there's only four species that live past menopause and we're one of them. So why would we live past menopause? And so I brought to this podcast, Dr. Lisa Moscone, who is the top brain researcher. And she brought to my attention something called the grandmother hypothesis. Right.

Do you know this? You know this hypothesis. Of course. Okay. Amazing. So the way she explained it, and I've now since dove in and studied, it from every angle I can find, but I'm left with a fitness question, is that it definitely the metapausal brain is built to see more of societal needs because the grandmother

needed to take care of the mother who was delivering and babies and taking care of babies and the other kids. So her brain, according to Lisa, is one that is built more towards empathy, can see things from a bigger picture. But when I dive into the science, I actually, she went out and foraged, and she pulled tubers out of the ground because what Lisa says is that only three percent of the time did the gang that went out for the kill, did they actually come back with a kill? It was a very, very small amount of time. So it was actually the grandmother that was keeping the tribe alive by her ability to go and resource plants and tubers specifically. So she had to be able to bend. She had to be able to pull. She had to be able to travel. She took by foot,

she took children with her that were probably five, six, seven years old. So I don't think she was carrying them, but maybe she was holding their hand. So when we look at this fitness level of what the grandmother back in the primals days needed to do, I'm thinking everything you just created in the movement diet was actually what was needed for the grandmother to be able to do her job around the cave. Am I accurate on that? And do you have any thoughts on the grandmother hypothesis when it comes through the lens of movement and fitness? Yeah. I mean, wow, there's so much there. We could do a whole episode on just this. I think about there's a really great book called Mothers and Others for those who want to kind of a lay, it's not layperson.

is it is a book by a physical anthropologist and biologist maybe, but it really does a beautiful job of showcasing this idea. I mean, certainly, I think that we forget the contribution that, I don't want to say this, children, so children forage, everyone for, everyone is participating, let's just say to the food supply. And we might even be naming things like adulthood for when you're able to create a certain level of resource. But children are making their contribution. It's sort of clumsy at first. And similarly, people who are slower than perhaps the peak producer of kilo-calories would be, but everyone's contributing. Like, there is no, there's not really hangers on. You know, everyone is contributing in some way. I think we've got

our understanding of movement in this particular culture backwards. Like, I think we think of children as needing a ton of movement or children moving a lot naturally as kids. Yeah. And then by the time you become an adult, it's sort of-tapers out. Wains down to, like, a little bit. And then when you're really older, it really trickles down to nothing. But it's almost the opposite.

Yes, right. It's almost the opposite. Your children have a lot of movement, but that volume of movement is to prepare them for the real amount of movement that they'll need to do when they are more actively producing. Now, keep in mind, this is on the spine. If everyone gets tons of rest and play, right, so, like, that's also what we're missing. We have no idea how to rest or play. We're the least rested most under-moved population. Like, we've got this crazy paradox going on where nobody's moving and nobody's rested, right?

we're stuffing our eyes with attentionally things. And so, yes, you're, but the tricky thing is, I think our, we can't necessarily put our understanding of, like, the age of grandparents is going to be younger. Oh, back then. And the age of menopause is going to be older, right? So we're, we're in early menopause. I mean, we menopause is a earlier time because we don't have 14 pregnancies, or, you know, so the more children you have, that's right. So we are in an earlier menopause. Menopause is coming on earlier. Yeah, it is. Well, that's also environmental. And we've got earlier puberty is also environmental. Yeah. But a lot of it is also you just haven't dropped eggs, right? Like if you don't drop it for every pregnancy, you don't drop eggs for a year.

Yeah. And you've got 15 years of being pregnant. You're looking at a 10 year that's not even environmental. That's just about eggs. So you're using your eggs quicker because you didn't go through periods. You didn't have 14 pregnancies where there was a pause on the egg release. That's right. Interesting. So that's very, that's a structural reality. So we are dealing with, you know, you and I and everyone else listening to your show, I imagine. Some people are through it and some people are probably not going to go through her, you know, if you don't have an ovulating body. But what I was going to say is we've got this dichotomy. Isn't a dichotomy? We have a situation where our menopause is coming on earlier, but we're sort of in the workforce.

in this peak way. You know, I'm still a hyperproducer with my 48-year-old body. You know, I'm still in that age where I'm, you know, fully engaged with my equivalent to bringing home the bacon, you know. Just on that, I actually have a theory that the most productive brain for a woman is the post-menopausal brain. It is as you transition into this grandmother hypothesis. And just for the sake of the conversation, doesn't mean you had to have kids.

But based off of what Lisa said, based off the research that I'm looking at, the fact that the amygdala calms down, every postmenopausal woman will tell me, like, for some reason, I just don't give a fuck anymore about people pleasing. So your people pleasing skills go to the wayside. You're now, your amygdala is not keeping you in the safety mode. It's moved more towards empathy. And your vision of the world becomes much broader because you go from eye. to more of a we state, and that's all based

to this grandmother hypothesis. So I think what you're saying, and this is a part of what I want to bring back, is actually women as they age, that brain is the most productive and the most useful. So what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, and I also am interested in that idea where when you are in the grandmother role, and I'm saying it with quotes because allo parents, we're talking about aloe parenting.

Yeah. And allo parenting, which is when any non-parent steps in to do the role of parenting, whether you are related or not, all traditional cultures have a solid role of aloe parenting that is absolutely needing to be filled. Is that as your value, you know, you see that as you are the resource. You yourself have become the resource. Your attention giving, your presence, you know, your eyes and ears on this. other group of people is now your work. So we're still working, but where you're doing your work

is maybe less in the world of like, I don't need to step away and bring home the bacon, or I'm just using that as like a foraging step in, right? And now my bacon is at home. And it's with these people and that is my role. And so our brain is just sort of adapting to the new space that would secure survival, or at least be a big influence of survival for the group as whole. Well, and that's the grandmother hypothesis is that we wouldn't have evolved out of the caveperson day if the grandmother hadn't been there and that she was necessary for the survival of the human species. And so then I look at her and I'm like, okay, well, what did she do? She had this brain that she could see a more collective view so she could take care of the whole clan. But then she was also able to go

out and forage for food. So I think today answered for me what physical skills we need as we get older because, and they're very analogous to what the grandmother did. She had to bend down. She needed the flexibility. She needed to pull. She needed her hand strength. She had to walk. She probably had to carry something heavy. So all of your movement diet, everything on the pyramid, to me, actually is now linking. That is what she needed as she got older so that our species, could survive. And that is what's being tossed aside when we go into those post-menopausal years because either women are so exhausted from, you know, all the work they've put in their whole life. I hear that all the time. Or we're told like, you're older now. You don't need to do as much.

And yet what I'm hearing is actually we need to go back to what the primal grandmothers did and the primal aging women did. Yeah. And I think, I don't think there's that much difference between what the aging group was and the younger group was. I think every. You know, it's sort of very similar, you know, like you, maybe you won't see sprinting, you know, or you won't see it. I'm not sure, because they were talking about a lot of different groups and a lot of different cultures. But I think in general, unlike our perspective where a movement starts high with young and tapers off, it's probably an on-ramp that stayed high all the way through. Because she knew she had to, when she went through menopause, she had to know to protect the clan.

What else are you going to do? I think it's just like the idea it wasn't a choice like I just think these aren't choices these are reflexes these are just environmental pressures so you just you stay mobile to do the things because that's what it takes right you have to keep up what it takes yeah so what's also interesting about the nuance of this movement diet that you have now I'm going to geek out and get all your books and and because I really love the way you've framed this is that in this current 24, what we're hearing is menopausal women need more strength training. And as much as I agree with that, I feel like it's been a limitation of the conversation. And the grandmother hypothesis keeps popping in my mind. It was like, no, what did we need to stay alive post-menopausally? Well, we needed all these different skills that you have now beautifully put into this pyramid. So my next logical question, because we get this a lot in our community where like 70 and 80 year olds are like, really? Now I got to start lifting weights.

I mean, my mom at 84 hasn't lifted a weight in decades. I'm thinking the healthiest way is to use this pyramid and say, are you hitting these marks on a daily, weekly basis? And if so, then my next question would be, do I need to go to the gym? What's the purpose of going to the gym? Well, there's no requirement. Like, we do not need an athletic sport or fitness lens to get the movements our body needs because they've always been there. Now, we all have individual lives that might make or responsibilities that are in a modern

context where we're using the gym as the only place where we can figure out where to get the movement or, you know, so you do not need it. But as a group of people as humans, it's not necessary. However, it might be quite practical for more people. Like, I think about your mother. And in the book, I list lots of different activities for each one of these categories in many different contexts. Beautiful. Physicality isn't the only thing we need, right? We also need, like I said, community. You know, we need to be with others. We need to have purpose. You need to identify what your

purpose is and why you even care about moving your body. That's a big part of the workbook is actually the identification of what is my movement why? Because if you have not identified your movement why. And if your movement why doesn't live outside of like external health information, the way our psychology works with being able to stay committed and motivated. And it doesn't work without that movement. Why? So when you're talking about your mother, swimming, getting into water is a, yeah. Yeah. So there's like swimming laps and that's climbing and clambering, but there's also water walking. You know, there's water aerobics that bring in the big body strength training work. and you could do that in a pool if you're feeling particularly so movement malnourished that you need

a slower on-ramp. You know, we're all coming into this where we are in our body. It could be, we're talking about grip strength. It could be holding a basket in your hand as you're fetching a few things from the grocery store instead of getting the automatic basket with wheels. Yeah. You know, it's walking to the library to return a book and carrying that load of books for just a little bit more than you would, like, oh, I'm going to walk a mile with my books on my back.

I mean, that one mile walk could be someone else's air quote three to five mile walk. You know, the fact that you've put it on your backpack, there's your big body worker you're carrying just because you put that load on your frame. And you think about your alignment, of course, and you're nice and upright while you do it. Yeah. But it's very easy to get these things without the need for the gym, you know, the exercise lens. Right. Because, of course, these are all activities of daily living.

Well, and like I'll tell you in the cultural zeitgeist right now, there's a lot of conversation. around the connection between menopause and frozen shoulder. It's a very common thing to happen. And I think one of the things that's happening is it's not just the loss of estrogen, but we have people that are like extreme athletes that are really lifting heavy, and it becomes very one-dimensional. So this new perimenopausal generation is a little more active than like my mom's generation for sure. And so what I, you know, I look at this conversation through two lenses. I look it through my mother's lens and through the women that listen to this podcast that are like, you know, in the 70s and 80s, maybe even the 60s where movement wasn't,

you know, exercise wasn't really in vogue for women. So this is amazing. We just gave you a checklist of things to be able to do on your daily basis. But then I think of my friends in their 40s and friends that I would run with, friends that can no longer do that movement, friends that are injuring themselves in the gym and they're frustrated because the injuries are mounting and they're in this menopausal moment. And I'm thinking, but wait, now your exercise or what you've been calling exercise has been so one-dimensional that you're now injured. So you need to come back to this movement diet and incorporate these other things so you can keep yourself fit. So your movement diet really, to me applies to both of these generations and just from a different lens. Am I,

seeing that right? Yes. And a lot of the things that you're talking about right now are micronutrients. So we talked about the macros. That's that big category. Micros is a whole under discussion about how our movement is distributed throughout our body. And like a big issue that I have with the frozen shoulder conversation is very similar to how I feel about age related, again, air quotes, hearing loss, age related, hip and knee replacement needs is what you're not, what we're missing is that it's, you're looking at something that's unilateral. Oh, didn't use both of us. One shoulder. Yeah, like you have one frozen shoulder. Right. Why is the other one hip, one knee, right. So that means that there's a mechanical underlay.

Like your hearing is worse than one ear than the other ear. Yeah. When, when, then we want to default to time because time is not mount we can't change it and so it really lets us off the hook for many things where i would work with a lot of folks and see like your movement micros in the shoulder that's giving you issue there's a way that you're using that one shoulder throughout your life that we're going to need to dial in on the trace mineral the single vitamin level right it's so it's not even about fat proteins and carbohydrates anymore. We're going to go in a little bit more and start talking about like vitamin external rotation is missing here. To movement. Yes. And to say, you are missing these fine movements because no one ever showed you how to use your shoulders in

this robust way. You are taught to play tennis, you know, but you weren't really showed good form for your shoulders throughout the day and like, oh, you're drinking your coffee in a way that's hard on your shoulders. You know, so a lot of my work. really the bulk of work is on the micronutrient level because there's a lot of detail here. But almost everyone is, most people have never been showed and it can bring about quite a bit of movement just by learning how to make these fine adjustments to their body. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I've been studying the musculoskeletal system and the human body for a long time. And this conversation just took me to a whole other level.

Like, I'm literally going to Amazon after this and getting all your bucks. Because everything makes sense to me through a primal lens. And the body's always doing the right thing at the right time. So when we have these injuries, when disease forms, the body stopped adapting in a very positive way. So if somebody wanted to take what you're teaching or the frozen shoulder idea of needing these macro nutrients, which book do we point them to? Because you've written a lot. I know. That's really, I've written so many.

books. So I've got books on if feet are your problem, you know, you can go to the books on just feet and legs, because that's, again, that's like a one and four thing for women once they get into their late 40s where there's something in their foot. And that ends up making it so you can't move the rest of your body. I would say probably a good book for micronutrients would be rethink your position because that's one book organized into a chapter sort of for every area of the body. So there's a pelvic and pelvic floor chapter, a shoulder chapter, a head or neck, one, one for the spine, for the feet and knees. And then you will learn, like, I didn't even know I had so many choices with how I put all of these parts. And it's short essay and it's, I try to be funny and light as I'm

teaching those things. And you could put that with my perfect movement plan, figure out which micros you need, and then use the other book to learn about some of those micros. Okay. Oh my God. I love this. So thank you. I could talk to you for hours. And we'll probably bring you back because one of my new passions really is I'm really frustrated with the term anti-aging and we're all aging. So anything we resist against, we actually bring more of. It's a universal principle I've lived my entire life by that I really believe. So I think we need to redefine aging and movement is such a big part. And in the menopausal space right now, everything is about strength training. And I've even asked myself, like, what am I supposed to look like at 60 and 70? You know,

am I supposed to still look like my 20 and 30 year old muscular self? And then I really landed for my own life on the place of like, no, I want to make sure that feel amazing and I can use this incredible body that I've been given to the best of its ability until I'm 100. So what does that look like? And I don't think that looks like more hours in the gym. So you just answer. You just answered it for me. And I just massively appreciate your thoughts around this. It's really cool. So, and my community is going to love it. So that leads me to where do people find you so they can go geek out on this too. Well, my company is nutritious movement. That's the website. You can find everything there. Social media is nutritious movement as well. And then I have a podcast,

move your DNA for people who like to listen. And then I really talk about lifestyle, the practicality of it. You know, and I cover, there's 160 episodes. There's plenty on there, hours of just how do you adjust your walking? How do you adjust your holidays to bring in more dynamic celebration? You know what I mean? Like, I've thought about movement for 25 years, top to bottom, right to left. Like, there's not a stone I haven't really unturned when it comes to the practical application of this. So I try to, I like the geeky, sciencey stuff.

that's who I am, but what people really need is the practicality. Of course. You know, and so that's really where I'm trying to teach is like, here's how you can think about something and try this and here's the adjustment that you want to make, you know, bending on your age or stage. Yeah. I've been really teaching my community recently to just be curious about information. And then when you're taking information in to know that if you're taking it in through

short format, like a real, my big thing right now is don't create health habits around reels. Like it's 90 seconds. And you need longer content like conversations like this. So I'm just to say to my audience listening to this, like if you resonate with this conversation, go get Katie's books. Go to her podcast because now you're going to learn more because there's so much there that you're bringing to the conversation on movement that's not being had right now. So I just, I love that. I love that. So thank you for that. I'm long form. Like I really believe in long. form and, you know, when I made this, like, my perfect movement plan book, there was like question, like, why isn't it just an app? And I said the difference in what's happening in

your brain when you sit and actually, if anyone's ever been to a workshop or went through, you know, a therapist who had them work through actually filling out answers of something, it's a much different cognitive and psychological effect that you have versus tapping buttons on a computer to spit out what you should do. This is about you figuring out what you need to do based on you really mulling on what do I find meaningful, what do I find practical and functional? Because when it comes to exercise, there are certainly nuts and bolts that we need, but there's a big wiggle room that's based on what we want out of our own lives. No one can tell you what you find meaningful and the life that you want to live. And so if you're trying to organize

yourself around health information without first determining what your own value system, you're going to get lost in the weeds and feel like you're failing all of the time. And so one way to get out of that is to sit with yourself, give yourself enough care to sit with yourself and ask yourself these questions. And then you can organize so much more easily. And it doesn't take more time. It's a much more efficient, thoughtful approach, I think, to creating the experience that you'd like. Yeah. And then when it's yours, it becomes effortless to apply.

It's intrinsic. Yeah. Yeah. It's intrinsic. Yeah. When we do something that somebody else told us we should do because we have to do it, now there's a resistance in every time you do that and it just depletes you. So I just love that.

Okay. Well, thank you so much. And I have to ask you one last questions. But first, I just, I love the depth of thought you've gone in this. And it really has provided me just a. bigger answer to the question of how do I want to age? And you've just given me so much. So thank you for that. My last question that I've been asking everybody this season is what is your definition of health and how do you know when you are healthy? Because I really feel like as a cultural

culture, we're chasing something we don't even know what it is. Yeah. That's a good question. That's also in the book. Excellent. Because I think you need to know that. For me, The definition of health and physical fitness are very similar. The actual clinical definition of physical fitness right now is having enough energy and skill to be able to do all of the things you have to do, all of your have-to's, plus all of your want-to's and have-to and have maybe just a little bit of energy left over. Yep. So there's a lot in that, right? Because that could mean decrease, getting rid of the things that you're doing that aren't things that you have to or want to be doing. And that's, I think, the challenging things.

So anyway, I'll just leave it there. That's really my definition. And when I can do that, I feel very healthy. I feel healthy. And have you ever read Being Mortal? No. I highly, highly recommend that book to everyone. And it's about hospice.

It's about, you know, if we're talking about accepting the concept of aging, I think just as we are anti-aging, we're sort of anti-death. Yes, we are. To a really pathological degree. Yeah. And that book will help reframe, I think, your understanding. And when someone goes into hospice or when they're at that stage, their life is not over. It just means that there's no more intervention to sort of, you know,

maybe deal with the disease that is consuming you. So every day, it's a question of what would make my best life? And that's totally different for everyone. And then you make decisions around that. What's my best day? What's my best day? I sorry. I misspoke. It wasn't what's my best life. It's what's day. Yeah, because it breaks down the days at that point. Because it breaks down to days, but doesn't that also go for it? You know what I mean? So I think once I've, read that, I was like, oh, right. So there's always the recognition of your best day does not mean, you know, the Disneyland version of a day. For people, you know, in this hospice situation, it's like, sometime with my family, the chance to read a book, you know, learn something new.

I want to see a sunset. Those don't really change, I think, for us. It's just that we don't tune into them until it's too late. It's not too late, but, you know, towards where they're numbered. So tuning into that a little bit earlier now. And so that's a little bit earlier now. And so that's a why my definition of health is so small. It's not about the numbers. It's not about the test results. It's just like, did I live a pretty good life today? You know, I recently hit a point in my life where literally on paper, everything is perfect. And I was like, okay, well, where do I go now? I've been lived a whole life of striving and like looking for things and going for things. And I finally came to this conclusion that life is just a series of days.

exactly what you just said. It's just a series of days. And so what do you want to do in those days? And the next day, you get to decide what do I want to do in this. So it's very similar to what you said. So I love it. I love it. You and I need to get together. This was just really sticky for my brain. And I feel like you and I are thinking similarly on lots of aspects of the human body. I also am really concerned about the messaging that's going out there in the culture right now, especially around menopause and aging and wanting to bring a broader view to this time of life, so which you just did so well with movement. It's just a developmental stage.

Like, what are you trying to hold back a notion? Like, you wouldn't want to hold back, you wouldn't want to hold back puberty. Why would you want to hold back menopause? It is your, you are moving to the next stage. Like, we need elders. Don't just need a bunch of elders. We don't need older. You don't get to be an elder just because you're older.

Yeah. That's, yes. And what does wisdom look like? That's a big question. I've been asking myself, how do you, what does wisdom look on our, on people? So if we're freezing our faces and we're holding back our thoughts, like how do we know a wise elder in our community? I still haven't figured the answer out to that.

I don't either. I'm not wise enough yet. Maybe that's the problem. Here's hoping. Yes. Thank you so much, Katie. This was awesome. Appreciate you. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.