Live Like a Girl with Dr. Mindy Pelz - The Secret to a Thriving Relationship with Dr. Karyn Gordon

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Dr. Karyn Gordon is here so hold onto your seats because you're in for a treat! Dr. Karyn's expertise extends into the realms of marriage coaching, business coaching, and she's the proud holder of one of the top 10 TED Talks of 2022, plus a Wall Street Journal best-selling book titled "The Three Chairs." But what exactly do those three chairs signify? You're about to find out! Dr. Karyn dives deep into the complexities of relationships and seeks answers to the age-old questions: Why are relationships so challenging, and how can we make them smoother? Join Dr. Mindy and Dr. Karyn as the explore this fascinating discussion on relationships, touching on everything from intimate connections to friendships and business dynamics. They discuss effective communication skills, including active listening, empathy, and assertiveness. And stick around right to the end when Dr. Karyn reveals the formula for fostering and attracting successful relationships. You can save 30% off your first subscription order of Ketone-IQ at https://HVMN.com/PELZ To view full show notes, more information on our guests, resources mentioned in the episode, discount codes, transcripts, and more, visit https://www.drmindypelz.com/210. Dr. Karyn Gordon is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author and CEO of DK Leadership Inc., a global leadership coaching company that serves international giants like Coca Cola and Magna International. Her TED Talk, ranked among the World's Top #10 most popular in 2022, with nearly 6 million views. Holding a Doctorate in Marriage and Family and additional leadership certifications, she has spoken to millions of individuals over her 25-year career, including CEOs, family businesses, leaders, entrepreneurs, professionals, and parents. Dr. Karyn is also a media personality and has consulted for prominent platforms such as Good Morning America, LIVE With Kelly & Mark, The New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Inc. Her leadership book, "The Three Chairs: How Great Leaders Drive Communication, Performance & Engagement," reached #2 on the Wall Street Journal & USA Today Bestselling charts. Dr. Karyn's mission is to develop great leaders at work and home, earning her a nomination for the 2022 Canadian Entrepreneur Award.  Check out our fasting membership at resetacademy.drmindypelz.com. Please note our medical disclaimer.

On this episode of the Resetter podcast, I bring you my dear friend, Dr. Karen Gordon, and I got to tell you what a treat you are in for. So not only is she a sweet friend of mine, not only have we used her in our marriage coaching, we've used her in business coaching, but she has one of the top 10 world's best TED Talks of 2022, and she has a Wall Street Journal bestselling book called The Three Chairs and you are about to learn what the three chairs means in this discussion. So I wanted to bring her on to talk about relationships. Let's dive in.

Why are relationships so hard? How can we make them easier? And I wanted her to really highlight, like, how do we do this in both our intimate relationships, our friendships, business? Like, what is the formula that we can use to make sure that we are creating an attracting the most successful relationships possible. And so I brought her on, and you'll hear at the beginning, I asked her, I was like, do you think we could do like a masterclass on relationships? And boy, did she give you one. So please stay all the way through. This is one of those discussions

that just kept getting better and better and better as the discussion went on. You're going to hear me a very vulnerable part of me and what I've been going through in my own life currently and in some of the relationships in my life. She sort of turned the interview tables on me in the beginning, which was really beautiful. But in the middle of all of that was a really clear way that we can attract positive people into our life and how we can navigate some relationships that just feel more challenging. I loved this discussion. So it is my gift to you from my sweet friend, Dr. Karen, please go look at her TED talk or listen to it. Please read her book.

Please take a discussion like this and send it out into the world. At a time when we are canceling people who don't believe like we believe, we are not helping ourselves by surrounding ourselves with just like-minded people. We are not advancing our own personal growth by canceling people out because they are not, of the same thread as us. We need to learn how to navigate relationships with people that don't show up the same way we show up. And Dr. Karen gives us exactly how to do this. Oh, this is so good. And I'm so excited to give it to you. Hey, Dr. Mindy here. And welcome to season four of the Resetter podcast. Please know that this podcast is all about empowering you to believe.

leave in yourself again. If you have a passion for learning, if you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. Enjoy. Okay, so we're going to dive in. And the first thing I have to do is welcome you to my podcast, Karen. You and I've had so many great discussions. We're now bringing those great discussions to the world. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you. And I'm like so excited. to kind of like talk to my friend for like the next hour. Like how, how fun is that? It's like a, it's like a girls party. It's like a girl's party with a whole bunch of other people. Yeah, so good. That's right. And we get to call this work. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Cool. Well, I always, and my audience

knows this, that when I bring a guest on and we start a conversation, I'm always thinking through the lens of like, what help is needed for specifically women between the ages of 40 and 60, although we do have, you know, couples, heterosexual couples, you know, so men do venture into this podcast. So we have same sex. I mean, the point is that we have all varieties in here, but the main is 40 to 60 year old women. And I'm just going to be very transparent. And I, and maybe the other women listening are like, yeah, she knows me.

I feel like I was a master of communication and a master of relationships until I went through menopause. And then as my hormones started to change, I felt like I was reading people differently, relationships that no longer were working for me. I just wasn't willing to put effort into them. And some relationships that had kind of just weren't giving me that same juice. I needed to redesign. So can you give us, I'm hoping this will be like a master class on relationships. What's the lens in which we can successfully look through relationships, no matter how intimate or how if it's a work relationship, give us a formula so we can succeed at our relationships? It's such a good question, Mindy. And I mean, there's so many variables, right? So it's interesting

because you're talking about the physical changes, which is a huge piece. Yeah. Also, in your evolution and your own journey, you've got your career is changing, your business is changing. There's a lot of kind of variables. And so a lot of times people are like, okay, what is it? Is it hormones, right? Is it hormones or is it, you know, is it some of these other variables? And I think regardless with where people are at, I think it's really important to think about just like our bodies are changing, our relationships are going to change. You know, it actually only, it actually always concerns me a little bit when people say, oh, you know, they changed. I'm like, I hope so. I hope that the person that they were at 21 is not the person that they're actually at 51. Like,

I always kind of find that a very strange, right? Kind of a strange kind of concept. It's like, I hope we've had changed. I hope we've kind of evolved. And so I think it's really important for all of us listening is to really think about let's get a framework on healthy relationships. Okay. And so whether or not we're 40, 45, we're 30, whether or not we're in a relationship

or not in a relationship, let's understand what does a healthy relationship actually look like and actually kind of dive in to that. Right. And so is that good? Okay, so you know this, but just for your, for your listeners. So I wrote a book called The Three Chairs. This concept is framework. Okay, I'm going to be teaching you wanted a relationship master class.

So this can be kind of like a framework on it. I came up with this concept, Mindy. I mean, you know the story when I was like in my second year of practice. You know, I've done, I've had a family practice for over 25 years. I worked on leadership gentlemen in the like like 20 years. This concept came up with teenagers. So for anybody who is a parent, you're going to actually really value this. But it's so simple.

that's such a great framework that you can actually apply it to all these other parts of our life. So, you know, if people have seen my TED talk, you'll kind of know it, but very quick, just high level. There's basically three chairs, and this is all based on science. There's basically three chairs, and it's all based on science that all of us sit in one of these chairs. So the left chair sits in, you know, that's the person that, you know, they put themselves down. They're really tough on themselves. They're critical. They can be the imposter syndrome.

The person on the right chair has, they're arrogant, they're cocky, they're full of himself. They have what they call the disguised attitude. and then the person in the middle has what we call the confident mindset. And that is a person that they feel good about themselves. They don't feel like they're less than, but they don't feel like they're better than other people. So understanding the three chairs is really simple. Where it gets super interesting is understanding how we move between the chairs. So, okay, so let me ask you, putting you on the spot for a second.

High school, right? High school, where would you have sat? Oh, I was in the far left one. I was in the imposter syndrome. Yeah, not yeah. Okay. Okay. And so what would you have done? Like what would I have seen you do that would have told me that? Did you, like what were the behaviors that you did? Well, you could have just looked at my body language. Okay. And you would have seen. I mean, I know we could say, well, I was a teenager, but I just didn't. I, I, I, I, because my sister, yeah, sat in the far right chair.

Okay. So she was cocky and arrogant and very capable. And older or younger. Older or younger. Older. Older. Yeah. Older. Yeah. So I sat in the. So I sat in the. other chair and compared myself to her. Got it. And honestly, this is where sibling dynamics, family of origin work is actually really interesting because if it's this older sibling, same gender, that is, that's the dynamic, that is only probably going to reinforce this. Yeah.

Right? Because a lot of younger siblings want their approval for their older siblings, especially when it's same gender. Yes. Right? Yes. The other thing, the other thing that I think is interesting is when you're the second, when you're a younger child, I watched how the world didn't really take too kindly to her.

And I was like, well, she's not like her arrogance and her abruptness is not getting her a lot of favor. So I'll be the other way. Oh, wow. But in being the other way, I turned humbleness into insecurity and not speaking up when I want to speak up. Okay. Okay. So I find it's really helpful when I teach these concepts to teach the frameworks. so we can kind of intellectually figure it out,

and then use examples so that we can actually figure out how this actually plays it. Okay, so then that's as a teenager. So then when you got into your 20s and 30s, when did you kind of move? What was kind of your next kind of stage of evolution? You know, this is such a great, interesting story. Do you know that literally it was the day I sat in an anatomy class? Wow. In college, I sat in an anatomy class,

and on the very first lecture, I was so fascinated by learning human, body anatomy, I never looked back and I became obsessed with understanding the human body. And once I found that passion for learning the human body, I probably went into the middle chair. But I definitely came out of that far left chair of imposter syndrome. Wow. Found my thing. So do you think that is for you? And this is, again, just the takeaways for your audience, are you thinking that finding

your purpose helped propel you? That was one of the, because there's lots of different ways, there's lots of different ways that people can move into different chairs, but finding our purpose and our goals and identify our goals is one of the most effective ways to get to our middle chair. So I love the fact that you actually shared that. Okay. So then you're now in the middle chair. You're in anatomy class.

And then when was your next kind of evolution with this? Do you feel like you've kind of stayed there? Do you feel like you have, you know, through menopause, perimenopause, that's actually changed? Or what's kind of like your next evolution with this? I know. I'm totally putting you on the spot. No, this is good. I mean, people who follow me are going to be really.

You're going to hear a whole new side of me. But that's okay. I've been really in the last two years doing a lot of therapy, a lot of work on myself. So it's really good just to talk about this. I don't think I ever sat in the arrogant cocky chair. Ever. I don't think I've ever sat there. And I would say I'd like to say I sit in the middle chair, which maybe you can describe a little

more for everybody just like what that middle chair is like because I've heard you talk about this before. Okay. But to answer your question, very interesting. this is brand new. I've kind of fallen back into that left chair. And I'm not sure why. I mean, I think what happens as you sort of get more successful, especially in this last year, we've had such a huge influx of opportunities. And there's like 350,000 people have already bought the book in nine months. Wow. Like just the podcast I've been on, there are

moments of imposter syndrome. And it's a little bit like, wow, all I wanted to do is write a book to change lives. I had no idea the world would take it and fly with it to this degree. And so you kind of don't keep up with your own growth is sort of how I've felt it. Wow. Oh, my good. There you go. There's the authentic Mindy. Wow. Mindy, I love that. So, okay, so just so I'm so I'm clear. So teenager, anatomy class, and then when you started your practice, you would say for the most part, Oh, middle chair. Middle chair. So middle chair.

Like you were saying that you said you were a master, because I'm just kind of like tying this all together, right? So you said you're a master at relationships, master at communication. That's the middle chair. And I'll come back and be kind of defining it. And then as you've kind of hit this next wave of success, you kind of like see yourself slipping back over there. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah, just because you just, when things move really fast, there's a lot of change in your life. Every just things feel really uncertain and unknown. Now, I will say that the place that cockiness shows up for me, I'm just going to call it that last year, is when you put me on charge of someone's healing journey, I have no doubt. I am like a dog on a bone. I will figure out how to help that person heal. And I feel really certain and cocky when it comes into that one-on-one coach.

Hmm. Do you think it's cockiness or do you just think it's certainty? I don't know. Oh, it's certainty. Yeah. I don't know. I don't see that as a really good question because I think as women, we don't own our certainty. Yes. And we and so there is a little bit of our certainty comes across as looking cocky. So that might even just be things for me to work on. Yeah. And the other thing I was thinking of Mindy when you were talking about this is, okay, so you kind of, again, when you're talking about your evolution, so sitting here and then as a success kind of slipping back here. But to your point, you're also in peri, perimenopause, correct? So now we've got- I'm actually post-menopause. Are you post-menop? Okay. It's official. Okay. I'm in the peri menopause. And let me tell you, it is wild. It's quite the adventure. It's wild. It is such the adventure. Because what I'm thinking is, you know, our physical changes are so interesting with our relationships and our mindset is that, that when we're going through, I mean, I can only speak for myself through perimenopause, everything is really heightened.

My emotions are very heightened. The way I see things, like, I'll interpret things. And my husband will be like, I really think they just meant this. Like, I think you're totally personalizing this. So, like, I feel like, ooh, like I had this armor on before that I don't, like, it's like, okay, I need to reestablish. And that's where the physical part, right, kind of intertwines, right, with our overall mindset. So, so in answer, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Can I say something on that? Because I think this is a

beautiful marriage between your work and my work. Yes. And this is why, again, people who have been listening to me on a regular basis that they are going to sort of knows what I'm about to say. And if this is brand new, hopefully this will enlighten you. But it is an armor that gets shed when we go through perimenopause. So we lose two key hormones. We lose estradiol and progesterone. But in the loss of those two hormones, we can lose serotonin, dopamine, acetycholine, oxytocin, BDNF. Like, these are massive neurochemicals that stimulate our brain. So you do feel more sensitive. I remember going through periods in my perimenopausal years where I felt like paranoid.

And I thought, oh my God, I never feel paranoia. So I think there's something really interesting about this three chair concept and learning how to move through it for the perimenopausal woman. Yes. Because we don't feel like ourselves because of the shedding of this neurochemical arm. Right. And I think that's so well said. And that again, this is why I love that intersection of the work that both of us do.

Because, you know, when you're talking about moving to that left chair and talking about the success, and the success would be for sure one of the variables, right? Like there's lots of variables. That's one of the variables. And then we've got physical changes that are actually also happening as well. sometimes we're like, okay, what is it? Is it the success? Is it the body changes?

Is it kind of accommodation of both? I find a lot of times it's accommodation of both. But regardless, we need to have tools, right? I mean, bottom line, I always want anybody that I'm speaking to conferences, media, whatever, to make sure, okay, what are the tools that we can actually do to help? Yeah. And I want to point one other thing out because this is another for people listening. It's also loss of identity.

So think about that as you go through. the 40 and 40 year old sort of transition in perimenopause. Like your body's feeling different. Your kids have maybe grown up and are out of the house. So your identity as a parent is different. Yes. A lot of women are going back into the workforce. Women like me are changing, dramatically changing our careers. So it's that loss of identity that I think can sit you back in that left chair where you're like, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Like all that certainty is God. And you know what makes me think about a conversation I had with a woman entrepreneur this morning. And to your point, she had, she sat in the middle chair for most of her life.

Then she realized that she's now kind of coming up in 50, that her life does not align to her values. Yeah. And she wants to do something different. So now she's made the decision to do something different. But in that decision, she feels like, whoo, it's like all of a And she's in a new arena. She's in a new arena, new skills, new framework, new people, new tools. And it's kind of a bit of, so it sounds like a little bit like with you, just that evolution for you. Yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of women I've spoken with, you know, we kind of had after our, you know, you know how when you're your friends a lot with the families that your kids are friends with. Yes. And then once everybody was launched into the world, I feel like there was like a community of us that were left like licking our wounds because we were like, okay, kids are launched. Right. Careers are changing.

We're at home with our spouse, with nobody around. Like there's so much identity, identity shift that it's really easy to fall back into that, that chair that you don't feel as good about yourself because the ground in which you were standing on has dramatically shifted. I think that's so well said. And so this is where there's kind of like two parts that I think are really important to highlight. One is like just really helping everybody like, okay, how do I sit in that middle chair, right? Because this is learned.

This is not genetic. A lot of people think it's genetic and it's not. There's parts that will impact it, but we can all choose. And I think that's such a hopeful message, right, for all of us. Yes. So I think it's really important that we talk about that and how can we help herself? And then how does it affect relationships and communication? So, okay.

So let's talk about how to help people in the middle chair. So the middle chair are people who feel confident about themselves. they feel a sense of I am enough. I think that's a really important message, right? I am enough. I am enough as I am that if I get this level of success, that's great, but my self-worth is not based on the success. Yeah, dive in a little bit more on the qualities of the middle chair.

Sure. Because when I first heard you explain this, where I, and this was like six months ago, so I was in the middle of all this transition in my life. And I remember thinking, oh, I know in the core of my heart, I want to show up as a middle chair person. Right. And that is who I'm dedicated to being. Right.

And so I just want everybody to hear what that is because I think that alone became a target for me and a remembrance that, hey, your value system says middle chair is what is important to you when it comes to dealing with other humans. Oh, so good. Okay. So the qualities of the middle chair. So it's a person. So all it is, it's a mindset.

Okay. so we were really just kind of like break it down. It's the thoughts that are inside of our head. We all have mind talk, right? We all have cognition. We all have like things that are inside of our head. It's the thoughts that we tell ourselves. And what we tell ourselves will impact how we feel,

which will impact our behavior. So it's like a domino effect. So when people talk about healthy mindset, there's a reason for it. But this isn't like fluffy psychology. This is like this is true and proven and science backed up. Right. So this, so one of the key.

thoughts that a person has in that middle chair is I am enough, period. So a person in the right chair is I'm enough if. I'm enough if I get 350,000 book sales. I'm enough if I get, you know, 30 podcasts. I'm enough if. And the second we put that little word if, what happens is a person's like, so it tends to be highly correlated with anxiety, massively correlate with anxiety. and a lot of times they also they a lot of times struggle with perfectionism. So we see this actually. So it's interesting about the left chair is people can look like they're in the middle chair, right?

They can be a high performer. They can be on stage. They could be like, you know, selling millions of books and doing movies and blah, blah, blah. But it's what they're really telling themselves inside their own head that really kind of determines. And nobody else can tell. Like I couldn't tell you what chair you said and you would have to kind of say and vice versa.

Right. So that's a really important thing is I am enough, period. So the person on the chair that feels more insecure, is that the left chair or the right chair? That is the left chair. So the person in the left chair, yeah. They feel insecure. But when they get a big win, now they feel secure.

So they're always looking for that. Like describe that a little bit more. So what happens is their thought pattern, and we see this is a lot of perfectionists and high performers, is they take. tell themselves, I'm okay if, fill in the blank, I lose this weight, I get a partner, I get this job, I make this amount of money, I get a promotion. So if they actually get it, they'll get like a little bit of a hit, like, woo! And then it'll be gone.

Yes. And then the panic starts going, holy crap, I got to now kind of get the next one. So it's not. So what's interesting when I work with a lot of high performers in this, they're like, no, no, I don't want to let go of this because I think this has actually helped me succeed. You know, like I feel like it's actually helped. I don't want to let go of it, Karen, because I really think that this has propelled me. I'm like, no, no, no.

You just watch. Watch what happens when you move yourself into that middle chair because when people move themselves in that middle chair, they still go after their big goals, but without the anxiety. So, okay, this is brilliant. And I hope people listening are resonating with this. So I came, it was my 54th birthday on Sunday. And I had, it was the first number of all the birthdays that I was like, oh my God. Like, how did I get here?

And what am I doing? Like literally last week, you can ask all my closest friends, I walked around going, what's the meaning of life? I don't get the meaning of life. But here's why. Right. Right. Here's what I came to was I think I can sit in that left chair.

and when I get the if, when it shows up, it doesn't have the same level of satisfaction as I dreamed it to be. Wow. And so then I go searching for something else and I've been doing this my whole adult life. Wow. So last week I got a hold of that and I was like, I'm done doing that. I'm not chasing the dopamine. I'm not chasing the if. So if I'm not chasing the if, what am I doing?

And that's where I was left. Wow. So I think you have to redefine your purpose, Mindy. Yeah. And that's where the middle chair might be helpful. Yes. Because that's a big game. And I hope everybody listening gets this.

Yes. Like that I will be happy when. I will be worthy when. That is a, and I'm just going to swear because this is my fucking podcast. But like that is a fucking lie that so many of us have been agreeing with. Right. And it literally was last week that I broke that thing open and I was like, you're done with that. Yeah.

Yeah. And so do you feel like a sense of a little oomph? Do you feel like you're a little bit close to the middle chair, just kind of like letting go of that? It's like I'm done with that. Like I'm done with the if. Yeah. Oh, it's good. Yeah.

But let's speak to, you know, women that may be resonating with us women or men. There's no neural pathway to understand how to do it differently. So if I go back to my neuroscientist brain, when you've been doing something like set a goal, chase a goal, accomplish a goal, you're worthy, there's a neural network in your brain that's going to keep, that's going to feel very normal. Yes. So the minute you say, I am not my successes. I am not what my, the outcome of my children. I am not, you know, the number on a scale, whatever it is, the minute you decide that that's not going to dictate your worthiness. Yes.

You don't have the neural pathway to think differently, which is why I'm, and that's what, so I felt a little lost, but I was clear that I wasn't playing that game anymore. So I feel like the middle chair, the qualities that you're going to teach us about the middle chair could really help create a new set of neurons in my brain to think of this differently. Yes. Oh, so good. It's so good, Mindy. Okay.

So in terms of the neuropathways, yes. So our brain, okay, so let's just back up. So in terms of the qualities of the middle chair, just we're all kind of on the same page, quality of the middle chair, the purse in the middle chair, they, their fundamental thought pattern is I am enough. Okay. Right. Period.

There's no if. I may want a goal, but my self-worth is not based on the goal. Okay. So it's kind of like in the left chair and the right chair actually, a person is like a little bit of a puppet. They're like a little bit of a puppet. And when you're in the middle chair, you're kind of like cutting all the strings. It's like, no more. I'm not going to do that.

Like I'm enough. I'm like, I'm going to cut out the strings and I'm going to sit here because I'm enough. And that's, it's period. End of story. So that's kind of like the biggest issue or the biggest kind of thing that would be different. Out of that because the person then feels or really believes that, as a result, their feeling is they tends to feel more confident. They feel worthy.

They feel secure. There is a sense of peace, actually. There's a sense of peace that they will actually feel. And because they feel that, they tend to actually kind of a comes out in their behavior. So common things that we see in actions, okay? So it's like cognitive emotional behavior. That's kind of like fancy word. I call the thoughts, feelings, and the actions.

Okay. So think about like a domino effect. So the actions are people in the middle chair. They tend to, they still set goals and you can still be a massive high performer. But the difference is I'm going to give it everything I've got and then I'm going to accept whatever my best is. So they tend to strive for excellence, not perfection. And so are they looking, is the journey more important than the end result? Like they set the goal, but then they're really trying to enjoy and, you.

use their creative abilities or whatever, you know, their, their brilliance in the journey. Yes. Yes. And I think it's like they really see themselves as like, yeah, a journey. They're evolving. They're changing. And it's like, what is important to me? They have a really solid sense of self.

They have a very clear vision around this is my vision for my life. This is with what's important to me. These are the values that I want to live my life by. And I'm going to step on the gas. I'm going to step on the gas. And I think I can, that has really helped. because the one thing once I decided I didn't want to, you know, play the game of the left chair. Yep.

I realized, oh, I do have a value system I can always come back to. Yes. And so I, what I'm hearing from you right now is I was, I mean, so I did move that. I would say today with the person you're talking to is in the middle chair. Right. Because, but I had to really see the ugliness. Yes. Of the left chair and where it didn't serve me.

Yes. And so that is exactly. Okay. So that is, so that is kind of foundational in terms of like what we, when we think about that kind of middlechair, we call it, there's actually five core skills. Okay, there's five core skills for somebody who's in the middle chair. We call it the acronym cards. Okay. So it's built on emotional intelligence, basically. Okay. There's five core skills. We've got a fabulous scorecard on our website, DKLeadership.org. People can download it for free. An org in Canada is, is not a nonprofit. I get asked that all the time. It's like, oh, is that. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway. So, anyway. So, so. Anyway, dkleadership.org. So people can get it. You can download it. But it's a score card that helps you to measure the five core skills. So cards, I like acronyms that helps me kind of understand content.

So there's five things that it really measures. C stands for your communication skills. A stands for your attitude and goal setting skills. R stands for your relationship skills. D stands for your decision making and time management skills. A lot of people don't realize that that actually impacts it. And F measures your stress and emotion. management skills. So these are the five core emotional intelligence skills. And depending on where

people sit, will actually determine. So people do the scorecard, they will actually, they might like be crushing three out of the five. Okay. They might be crying. They might be doing really well in communication and goal setting and relationships, but they're, they suck at time management and stress. Right? Or vice versa. And so what's really important is for all of us to kind of almost have a bit of a self-awareness around, okay, let's do the scorecard, let's measure it. Let's figure out, of these five core skills, where am I sitting in the middle chair for which skill? And I kind of like outline exactly, I outline exactly because of the five skills, we might be four of them in the middle chair and one of them were over here.

So you can sit different at different times. In different times and different environments. So Mindy, people can be like in the middle chair. at work and they go home and they sit in the left chair. Interesting. Or people can sit in the middle chair at work and home and then they go see their family of origin and all of a sudden they go back to the left chair. Wow.

Oh, yeah. So if I take this quiz, it'll tell me where I sit with these five things. It will show you, it will show you how you're doing in all five of those skills and where are you scoring really well and which ones actually need. work. Yes. Right. Okay.

And so it's a really great, because I find a lot of times when I teach this, the framework, people are like, oh, I love this. But I want to, I want to go deeper and I want to actually understand how am I, according to these kind of skills. So the first thing is, again, understand the mindset, understand then the five core skills. And then once we kind of like go a little bit deeper, we can start kind of playing out how the chairs really impact behavior. So you talked about relationships.

Okay. relationships is one of the five, okay? So it's the third category. So we talked about friendships, dating, relationships. I think your listeners are going to find this super interesting. Okay. Great. Where we sit highly impacts who we are attracted to for friendship and relationship partner.

So we see with research, isn't that's crazy? We see with research that if I'm sitting in that left chair, it doesn't matter if I'm 13 or 50, If I'm seeing that left chair, there's a higher chance I'm going to be attracted to unconsciously to somebody who actually sits in the right chair or the left chair. We don't, wow. Okay. Isn't that crazy? The right chair, just explain the right chair for a moment. Right chair, they are, they're cocky.

They almost appear uber confident. Okay. They, they're a bit cocky, they're arrogant. they have a superior attitude. So when it comes to conflict, they're not going to apologize. It's all your fault. They're not going to take any ownership. They have it.

They feel like they're superior. This left person feels they're inferior, and this person feels like they're equal. So the inferior, that would make sense. You would attract the superior to make yourself feel more superior. Right. And the superior unconsciously looks for the inferior to elevate them. Oh, to continue to make them feel.

Yes. Oh, fascinating. Okay. Well, what happens if you make a marriage choice? Yes. At 20. Yes. Yes.

This is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about when people's like, oh, they've changed. So let's play this out. So let's say, again, somebody's 20 years old. They get married. They marry their partner. They're over there. They're like, holy crap.

This isn't feeling good. But all of a sudden, let's say they're on a personal discovery journey. So now they're going to, they're going to take books. They're going to listen to fabulous podcasts like yours. going to read, you know, read books and attend seminars, maybe do therapy. And all of a sudden, they get themselves to that middle chair. Well, what's going to happen is there's going to be massive conflict. Yes.

Yes. And what will happen is, I'll tell you a story, actually, it was funny. So I was doing a parenting conference. I mean, I do mostly leadership and business and educational conferences. And this one actually was an educational conference. This is like years ago. And I had a couple that was sitting front row, Indie, and they were frantically taking notes. I was explaining the three chairs.

And afterwards, the couple comes up to me. They're like, oh, my God, I'm listening to you. And I'm, like, listening to everything that you're actually saying. And we came here to understand our children. And our whole marriage is now in front of us. And they basically said that when we got married, and the guy, the guy was actually telling me this. He goes, my wife is sitting there.

I was sitting there. And I says, what happened? She goes, well, she moved to the middle. I said, then what happened? He goes, she said, you come to counseling or we're done. I'm not going to put up with this. I'm not going to put up with your, like this. not like this nonsense anymore. So he said, fine, I'll go. So she put her foot down. She now understands

she is worthy and she's not going to put up with it. And that changed the whole dynamic. He got himself to counseling. And I said, I'm like listening to them. And like, this is crazy. And I said, so where do you sit now? He goes, I see us both sitting in the middle chair. And I see all three of our daughter sitting in the middle chair. And so if we were to gamify this, the goal is for everybody to get to the middle chair. If we can get to the middle chair, now we're having really healthy interactions with each other. Right. And so it's, it is always, so for example, if I'm coaching a client and they want to get themselves to a middle chair and they're single, I tell them, hold off on the dating scene. Let's get you to that middle chair and then I will help you,

I will help you on that dating scene. Do not date until you're in that middle chair because if you're not in that middle chair, you're going to be attracted if people in that right chair. So smart. So is that interesting? So that's how it affects relationships and, you know, dating as it relates to friendship. So we've, you know, I've talked about this before, how as women, women friendships are amazing and they can be tricky. And you know, I've had many conversations about this. And so as we evolve and we grow and hopefully we get ourselves to that middle chair, what we see as a healthy friendship is going to be.

going to look very different. Yes. If we're in that left chair. So the same thing happens in friendship. If I'm sitting in this chair, I'm going to be unconsciously attracted to people and friends who sit here or here. If I'm sitting in this chair, I'm unconsciously going to be attracted to people who actually sit here.

It makes so much sense. Yes. And I'm thinking of all the relationships I have in my life that maybe aren't what they used to be. And what I'm realizing is, oh, I switch chairs. on them. Yes. Yes. You changed the dynamic. You changed the dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you do? I mean, and this is going to be both in friendships and in marriage. Like, so you switch, you switch the chair. Yep. And the other person's not really wanting to switch the chair. Or maybe you're in a friendship. Like, I can think of some of my friends that I'm going to like send them this podcast and be like, hey, you should listen to this. Let's have a talk. Let's talk about what care you're in. Because I think it will, it will deepen.

our relationship. But I think some people would be like not everybody wants to get to the middle chair. Yeah, no, I think it's a great point, Mindy. And I think that's where I actually do a friendship audit every year. Every year. I kind of, so the friendship audit is what are my core values that I look for in a friend? What are my core values? And then I look at the people that I've very carefully chose. And I'm very careful with who I surround my. myself with and you too and you too and I make sure that I am constantly aligning and choosing friends that are aligned to my value system. So is that because it's so easy to get knocked out into one of the other chairs is what I'm thinking? Yeah and I think my valley system has changed right like um you

know as I've kind of helped myself kind of move to that middle chair and if people have seen my TED talk I sat in that left chair for a long long time. And so when I kind of help myself move to that middle chair, one of the first things I did is actually try to find friends in the middle chair. Yeah. And I think, yeah. And then I think as women, if people have any level of success, women who sit in that middle chair, they will champion other women who are successful. Yeah. They will be like, woo-hoo, Minty, way to go.

Way to go, Mindy. I'm so proud of you. So good. Right. I'm so proud of you. I am so proud of you for your podcast and your book sales. Women that are really confident, it's like they have an emotional bucket that's all filled. They have lots to celebrate. But if people don't, then you'll see women not champion. You'll, you know, and so you'll probably, you probably have down. Do they criticize? Yeah. They either criticize or they, they, they're silence.

Uh, yeah. And it, and all of a sudden then what you realize is like, oh crap, do I have a frenemy here instead of a friend? Yeah. So success is really interesting. I mean, we work with all kinds of very, very successful families and businesses. And this is a theme I hear all the time, that as people become more successful, their network gets small, or sorry, their circle gets smaller, more protective around wheelchair.

Their network might get bigger, but their circle gets, and they become more careful of who really gets access. Yep. And so... Yeah, I mean, that's that really, that sums up my year. Right. Pretty much. Right. Just really being conscious of who I surround myself with, um, because I need it for my own emotional support. Yeah, totally. And women who are really, like in that middle chair, they will champion, they will support you. They will cheer you on. They're not threatened by it at all. In fact, they're so proud of it for you. And so the question that becomes, like I get this asked all the time, then what do you do with friends that we've had for a long time? What do we do with that high school friend that we really have nothing in common with? The valleys are different, right? What do you do with

those friends and those different seasons? And I think you can have different, uh, levels of intimacy and friends. You know, you can have like your, I kind of like see it as like circles. Like, like, um, like that you can have your inner core, which people say generally is only about three to five, you know, really, you know, a really tight kind of core. And then, and maybe you're talking to them like, I don't know, once a week, once a day, once a month. And then you can have, like, other friends that are, you know, they serve, you know, they've got a lot of the valleys, but maybe not everything. Maybe you're seeing them once a quarter.

And maybe there's other friends either you just kind of like drift apart or you see them like once a year. So you can kind of, you don't have to have, and I've had to learn this as I've gone too. We don't have to have everybody in that inner circle or like the inner circle should really be kind of our valley system in our middle chair. But we can have other friends in our life that, you know, that, because I'm a very, I'm an eight on the anagram. So I love like the loyalty is like huge for me, right? So you can still have friends in your life, but maybe they're just not in that inner circle. You know, I just did this. We're putting out a Fast Like a Girl journal that will come out in the, in the spring of 24. And I wanted to put some activity pages in it. And one of the activity pages

was one that I learned from a friend of mine going through cancer. And I think it's an incredible tool that everybody should use. And what she did is she realized that the people around her were so important for her healing journey. Yes. That she created what she called the circle of support. Oh, wow. And the core of the circle was her.

Yeah. And so she wrote her name. And then all the people closest to her were the middle chair people. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the people that supported her and no matter where she was in the healing journey. Yeah.

And then the people that were maybe not understanding, like she was taking a more alternative approach. So the people to her healing, the people that were like, you're crazy, you should be doing this or the or the people that were like, you're going to be fine, like just didn't support her in the way that she wanted. She put them in the outer circle. Yes, yes. And do you know she had it in pencil? Oh, wow. She would move people around. Yes.

And she even had her dog in there. Like, it was so beautiful. So we've recreated it for this journal. Oh, that's fabulous. That's fabulous. And it's a great, you know what? It's a great visual on how when I even like pencil because, you know, like I'd be curious, your circles and your friendships where it's all changed in the last year, right?

Like, as your success is just like, woo, right? So you'll see. And you might have some surprises. some people might really, did you? Some people might be like, really showing up. And some negative surprise. Like, oh, wow. I saw some ugly sides of people that I considered close to me.

And it shocked me. So I think that's maybe where like the, you know, the downside shows up of growth and success. Yes. Yes. So it's a great visual, the chairs. And it's a great thing to really start for everybody to start thinking about their relationship. and be conscious.

So it's being conscious, okay, my goal, myself in the middle chair, my goal is to try to find other people that are in the middle chair. Okay, great. So this leads me to, how do you find middle chair people? You know, it's interesting.

So the New York Times, like, I don't know, it was like a couple of years ago, I think. They did an article about friendship, and it got so much response, so they actually ended up doing a whole, like, six-part series, actually, with it. Because this comes up all the time when I,

when I coach. And I think you have to be very intentional to find your like-minded tribe. Yes. So I think, you know, step one is like, okay, I now know what the middle chair is. Okay. So now it's like we're looking for it. It's like our eye. Well, and also, well, first step, actually, we've got to help ourselves get in our

middle chair because if we're not in the middle chair. We got to get there. Right. Because if we're not there, even if we find a middle chair, they're not going to be, it's not going to be, it's like magnets that just don't kind of. Yeah. It won't stick. It won't stick.

Yeah. So goal number one, get ourselves to the middle chair. Goal number two is then to find other people. So I think you have to have your radar out for it. And I think you have to start looking in different circles, right? So whether it's your kid's school, whether it's a church, whether it's at the fitness club, whether it's, you know, you kind of like go through your different places where everybody's kind of connecting your workplace and ask yourself, who are some middle chair people here?

Because what's interesting is that if somebody's in that left chair, they're not necessarily looking for people in that right chair. No, they're looking for the, right. Oh, they're looking for the superiors? They're looking a lot of times if you're in that left chair. You're kind of unconsciously looking for people here or here. Right. Okay.

You're not looking for the middle chair. So what I'm saying is that like start looking for people who are positive, that are confident, that are like really encouraging. Yeah. When I do this in businesses, I mean, you can apply the same thing. When I teach this concept to companies, they people love it because they're like, oh, this makes so much sense. So we need to hire in the middle chair and we need to promote in the middle chair. Yes.

Like it's like, oh, this is so, because it's so intuitive, right? So, but now that we have the framework, it's actually really helpful. So a lot of times when people are in this process, they're not looking for it. So they miss some really good candidates. Okay, so I love this. This is so good because we used when when my kids were little, I remember coming back, I was at the at the play yard with them. I had taken them to go swing on the swings or something like that. And I came back and I had this aha of like, I need to find other moms that I like going to the playground with where our kids can play and I really enjoy the mom. Yes. And so I started calling it mommy dating. I'm like, I'm going to go mommy dating. And it became a joke. And actually some of my best friends today, when we mommy dated. And we found this really beautiful connection. So what I'm thinking now, because I also would say that, and this is coming out in my new book that I'm writing about the brain changes that happened to women after 40. And one of the things that we, that I think is a lot of us just don't get the same juice out of our relationships that we used to get out of that. And so I've been consciously going, I think I'm going to friend date. I got to go find some new friends. But now I'm

going to change it to middle chair. I'm going to go middle chair dating. I got to go find all the middle chair people. Yeah. So, so that leads me to the question of how long does it take? Like, how do you know if you felt like sometimes somebody will appear middle chair and then. Yes. Yes. That's true. A couple months in, you're like, ooh, no, you're not middle chair. Right. And if that's the case, so think about like, again, I'm thinking about the audit, right? Like your inner circle and then you have more like, you know, your, your kind of community. You can kind of like have these different levels of intimacy. So when we're dating, we don't go from like a date to like intimate, right?

We go from getting married. Yeah, not all of it. Yeah, not all. Yeah, hopefully not. So think of it like we're dating. It's like, and you just have to kind of, it's, it is very much like dating, right? You kind of like see, you know, how people show up and how do people respond to your success when you share with the news and are they reliable?

and, you know, you date and then you're like, okay, I think they're ready to be promoted here. Like, this is like, I'm, yeah. And the key thing is not to promote too early. Because there's no going back. There's no, it's hard to go back. So you have to just kind of like, just do it, you know, but it is like dating, right? Like, it is kind of like dating. So I encourage, you know, we're starting a women entrepreneur mastermind for this exact reason because there's a lot of women.

It was interesting. When we did our market research for it. it. And I was asking women entrepreneurs like what they are struggling with. One of the biggest things they actually said, Mindy was loneliness. Yeah. Oh yeah. Right. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's like, they're like, I don't have any. And it's a huge health. Yeah. And it's a huge health problem too. I mean, you die earlier. You get diseases more like loneliness. We need to help loneliness. Right. And for women, you know, it was so interesting doing the research for it because women are like, I feel like I've got like four heads. My other friends can't relate to me.

I'm working in a man's world, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, okay, like community is actually one of the things that they're actually really looking for. And I started, I'm starting. I'm launching it this year because I looked for that and I couldn't find it. You know, so if you can't find it, you created it. You create it. You create it. You can't find it. You create it. So, but anyway, all that to say, where can we find it? I would, I would start, I would encourage everybody to look at look at the areas your networks right now and ask yourself, is there somebody that maybe you've overlooked? You just haven't really, you know, just haven't, you haven't looked. You may be, and go up for coffee. Go do something like a shared interest is really important. Like,

so whether or not that is parenting or business or, you know, sports clubs or whatever. So, but I would start with the networks that you currently have and ask yourself, are there some middle chair people here. And if not, then expand your network. Does it help if one litmus test that I've always used is how do I feel after I leave that interaction with that person? Yes. If I can, because I think it's really seductive, especially when we're choosing friends. If we're sitting in the left chair and we are with somebody in the right chair, all of a sudden we might feel powerful. We might feel like, oh my God, Like I want to be around that certainty.

But then when we leave, it's our self-talk that happens after we leave. And sometimes if you're taking someone from the left and the right chair, what can end up happening is that you leave and you feel less than again. So I've used a litmus test of do I feel better when I leave that interaction with that person? And if so, they seem like a very good person for me to keep interacting with. Right. Mindy, I think that's a really good point. And actually, it's funny because, you know, the litmus test that I use is actually my husband. So, I mean, you've met Brent. And he will often

comment on when I come back with girlfriends after like a girlfriend event, he'll be like, oh, Karen, you're so energized. And he'll say, sometimes will be like, I'm not quite sure about this friendship. And he's like, he'll give it to me. Like he'll say, you know what, I think that friend is it great to you or actually, I think you might have a little frenemy on you on your hands here. And, you know, because he sees it from, there's no emotion, right? Like all he cares about it's kind of like as parents right like all we want for our kids is for our kids to have great friends we don't care if they're popular what they wear what they're so we don't we don't we don't care at all all all I care about is are these people really great to my to my kids yes that's

like that's like a great spouse a great spouse is like I don't care about any of bells and whistles but like is this person a great friend and I think that's so good and I'm really anxious to hear what people listening to this, like the feedback that we get on this, because it takes something as complex as loneliness. So let's go to that thought again. It's like if you're moving around the world feeling lonely, but maybe a lot of the women that I hear that feel lonely, they actually are surrounded by a lot of people, but they may not be middle chair people. And so they're not getting that same juice from a relationship. So I hope this context helps those women. figure out how to go choose those middle chair people.

Yes. But the second thing that I'm still left with is that, and I see this so much in women as they go through the perimenopausal years, is a lot of us have been married a long time. We've changed. Our spouse has changed. Our circumstances have changed. And I'm almost wondering if there's like a yearly on your anniversary, you sit down and you go, okay, what chair do you feel like you're operating from?

and if you can do that, then maybe there can be a more open discussion. But like, I'm thinking of my friends that have gotten divorced over the last couple years. And every single one of them, one of them was in the right chair and one of them was in the left chair. Wow. Wow. So how do we, if we're listening to this and we're like, our marriage, yeah, I don't think my husband or my spouse, my partner is not sitting in the middle chair with me, how do you get them? So a few things. One, we want to focus 100% on us because we can't force somebody to sit in the middle chair, but we can control helping ourselves sit in the middle chair. So that really needs to be the first goal. Like goal number one is I need to get myself in the middle chair. I need to work

on my mindset. The book talks about that. I need to work on my mindset. I need to kind of really hone in terms of some meaningful goals that are important to me and really get a handle on these five core skills and who am I? Like that needs to be kind of goal number one. Once we get into that middle chair, what are two things is going to happen? Our spouse is going to, might be inspired.

It's like, whoa, what has happened to you? You've got like this great energy. You seem happier. You seem fuller. There might be a part of it that is actually more attractive. It's like a more confident self. So some partners find it actually a little bit,

it kind of throws them off, but they're like, I kind of, I think I kind of like this evolution that I'm seeing. So you might be surprised everybody. You might be surprised. If you get yourself in that middle chair, your partner might be inspired going, okay, what, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? And I think I want to, I want some of it. So that is one option. The second option is they're like, I'm not interested. Right. I'm not interested. And whatever you're on, I'm not interested to be part of it. So then you have to, you have to have some really tough conversations with yourself, with them. And part of it, I think also is I think a lot of times people think, well, I've got to do therapy.

I've got to do therapy to kind of get myself to the middle. And you don't have to do therapy. I mean, I do, I mean, you know this. I've been practicing for almost 30 years and leadership development for over the 20. One of the reasons actually I would love to go into business, to be honest, Mindy, was because I knew that a lot of people would never go to therapy. They would never come into it. my clinical space, but I can meet them in the boardroom.

I'm just going to say, so the therapist went to the boardroom. That's brilliant. The therapist went into the boardroom, and I'm teaching the same stuff, but it's business and strategy development, it's leadership development. It's the same content, but all of a set, it's like it's framed in a way that they actually kind of understand it. And so I've had, so you don't necessarily have to go into therapy. and for a lot of spouses.

They're not interested. And the traditional therapy model doesn't work for most people. Do you think that somebody could take your TED talk and maybe take it to a spouse and be like, hey, let's just watch this together. I'd just be curious where you sit in the chair. Like that could be such a low-hanging fruit.

It's even, I mean, your book is easy to read too, but it's like that's even easier than reading a book. Yes, I agree. On date night, sit with that and ask yourself. 100%. And on our way. website, we have discussion questions for the TED Talk for three different groups. We have it for families, for schools, and for businesses. Because it actually applies to all. And I think I told you

this story. But for Mother's Day last year, our boys, we have twin boys that are 16. And they said, what do you want for Mother's Day? I'm like, I know what I want for them. I want flowers from the garden. Don't spend any money. And I want us to sit down and watch my own TED Talk and print the discussion questions and have a conversation about it. And Mindy, we had an hour conversation with our teenagers about the three chairs. So we watched the TED Talk, which is whatever, 18 minutes. And then we did the discussion questions. And we talked, okay, so we all did it. And then we talked about what chair we all see ourselves in. And what's really interesting about stress, when we're, where do we see ourselves sitting in the majority of time? And then when we're stressed,

where do we sit? And, oh, we move in different times. Oh, we can move. Yes. Oh. Yeah. So an internal every day, then, inventory of where am I? Yes.

Yes. That's my, stress may have moved me back to that left chair. Yes. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So, yeah, so it's good to, and you know, the people who give us the most honest, raw feedback are our family. Of course.

Right? Unfortunately. Yes. So they see the best. they see the worst of us. So I think that is a really good, a really good, a really good kind of exercise for everybody actually to do. Now, let me ask you this. So if I look at my family unit, yeah, like your family of origin, your family of origin. My family of origin, the one I was raised in. So like back to what I was saying, my sister and, you know, sat in that, in that right chair.

So there was only one place for me to go. I would go into the left chair or the inferior chair. was in the superior chair. I think my mom was in the middle chair. And I think my dad was in the superior chair. So it's really interesting because when we all get together the family of origin, it's sort of like we all go back into our familiar chairs. Yes. And in this, in recent years, I'm not allowing myself to sit in that inferior chair in my family of origin. And that's created a little bit of dynamic and a little bit of conflict. So how do you, how do you deal with that when you move a chair in a situation like that? I mean, maybe at Christmas we'll watch your TED talk. My parents would do that. But are there things you can say if you are moving into this new

place and you're finding conflict with those who are used to you in a very specific place. This is, oh, Mindy, this is so good. Okay. So this, here's a good question. Ask yourself, when you're with your family of origin, how old do you feel? Oh, I feel 16. Okay. Okay, so here is your assignment. Okay, when are you seeing your next, when are you seeing the family next Christmas? Well, my parents I see every week, but we'll all be together at Christmas.

Okay. So, all right. So my question for you, your homework, is to think about what do I need to do to become 54 at Christmas with my family of origin? Because this happens with a lot of people is that the age that we left home is the age emotionally we stay with our family of origin. Interesting. So people can kind of go. I left at 17.

You left at 17. I left at 17. Okay. Now what about your sister? When did she leave? How old are you when your sister leave? Well, she's two years old. She's two and a half years older than me.

So she left. Well, she was 18 when she went off to college. So you were about 16. 15 or 16. Yeah. So basically you're emotional. But the dynamic we have. Yeah.

Yeah, the dynamic we have now is that 16 and 18 year old. Right. So that's the part that has to get changed. Well, that's what my encouragement. Okay. So you have evolved with your family or actually, okay, so with your mom and dad, how old do you feel? Oh, well, because we're now changing roles a little bit, right? And I have to take care of them. So I probably with them, if it's just the two of them and me, I feel more 54. Okay. Because I'm having to physically and financially help them. Got it. Okay. So it's, okay, so it's when sister comes in, all of a sudden the dynamic actually changes. So my encouragement to you would be to think to yourself, okay, if I was emotionally 54 and I'm sitting in that middle chair, put yourself in, like, because you, you know, people are so habitual, right? Like, we tend to say the same thing. Like, you can almost predict it. Think about what would you do differently at your Christmas holiday? What would you say differently? What would you do differently? What would you do differently? differently? How would you respond differently being in that middle chair as a 54 year old? Yeah. I, you know, and I, I, there's a lot to that. I think what I've done is I think I've gone over, I go into the, to the superior chair. And I'm like, okay, all of you, let me tell you how this, you know, it's like, so I forgot the middle chair. I forgot like the, like to just be a little more compassionate and understanding and supportive. I could do that a lot better.

And honestly, that, again, I didn't talk about this at all, but people can flip back and forth. In fact, a lot of times people will be there and they're like, screw this. I'm not doing this anymore. And they're like, right? And then it's like, oh, crappola, right? So we can kind of do that back and forth. So what you want to do is think to yourself, okay, let's, if I'm a magician and poof,

you know, you're going to be 54 with your family of origin. What would I see you do? What would I see you do? how would I see you act? How would I see you interact with your sister? What would I? And really try to visualize in your brain. Because so much of you has evolved in all these other parts.

And then we just got like this little part that is still undeveloped, right? And trust me, I've had to do this in my own family of origin too, because I'm the youngest of three kids and all kinds of different, you know, sibling relationships for sure as well. But one of the things that I did is like, nope, I'm not going to play this dance anymore. And when I stopped playing the dance, you know, stuff hit the fan. And it did not necessarily. And we have to kind of wait for because if we're not going to put up with stuff anymore and we're going to start setting boundaries.

So setting boundaries is another huge piece about this. Yeah. And speaking up maybe for myself. Yes. In a kind way. Yes. So being assertive is a huge part to this. This is, again, when people get the scorecard, it kind of like downloads all these

different things. but people in the middle chair, they, they're assertive. They will start standing off themselves. And if you're in a family of origin, they're like, whoa, what is that, that's, that's actually going to create conflict. Yeah. Yeah. It is, right?

It's like, it is what it is. I know. But we can say, we can be assertive with grace and kindness and yeah. And no nonsense, right? So learning how to be assertive and to set boundaries is a huge part. And if we're part of a. feeling of work, and we haven't done that. It gets worse before it gets better, is what I would say. Yeah. Well, but, you know, the thing I love about all, my whole family is they're very much

open into self-improvement. And intellect is very important, my family, studying, understanding. So I'm literally going to, we're going to watch your TED talk at Christmas. And I'll report back. Yeah. And I'll be like, okay. No, I'm going to report back. I think this, I think you may have just solved our, are my family of origin problem because I think if I could have a very interesting clear conversation with them after we have a common language, then they, I think they, we would all understand each other better. A hundred percent. And honestly, Mindy, that is actually one of the things that we hear over and over again from people is they love the chairs because it's now a language. It's super

easy to understand it. I mean, it's a lot more complex when we actually start going into like, how do you build it, blah, blah, blah. But understanding it is great. People can then all of and have a conversation, right? So all of a sudden, because like, how would you bring this up? If you're like, you know, pass the turkey and it's like, right? I don't know. How do I bring this up? It's kind of awkward, right?

Yeah. Where's the cranberry sauce? You're in the left chair. Yeah, pass the cranberry sauce and like, what chair are you in? So it kind of like gives people language. And then if you go through the questions, it actually helps people talk about what chair do I see my cell in and what chair do you see me in? And when I,

have I been in the right chair? When am I been in the middle chair? What am I been in the left chair? I think it opens up like some fascinating conversations. Yeah. And actually one of things, and again, I don't know how many of your listeners have done the enneogram. You and I have talked about this, but I'm an eight.

Yeah. An eight tend to confront things. And as a woman, eight, as a female eight, that is interesting because sometimes that gets perceived as aggressiveness. Yes. Versus assertiveness. And there'd be, we haven't even talked about this, but in terms of communication, to be sitting in that middle chair, you're going to be assertive.

You're not going to put up with everything. You are going to stand up for yourself. And that could be perceived as the right chair. Yes. Yes. And so it's helpful for people to really understand. No, assertive is different than aggressive. And I really like the way you say of instead of like watching the TED talk or reading the book

and being like, hey, this is the chair I'm in. what chair are you all in? Yes. I think what I'm hearing you say is you would ask, like, what chair do you think I'm in? Where do you think we all fit? And then that just, that would be a middle chair person opening up the conversation. Exactly. And that might be your first feeling of like, okay, I think I'm going to, I'm going to charge this.

I'm going to, I'm going to take the lead on this and be 54 with my family because that would be a 54 move. Oh my gosh. I love this. I'm thinking of all. the good thing about so many people in my life right now is they're always, I've surrounded myself with growth mindset people. And so I'm going to take this and be like, hey, let's deepen our relationship. Like, what chair are you at in our relationship? I think it'll be really, really cool. And you can kind of like, yeah, and it just, it will just open up the dialogue.

All of a sudden you have like this common language. We should talk really quick also about communication, because that was the other thing that you talked about that I think is really, really important. And again, people will see this on the scorecard. But in conflict, and this is the eight talking, but in conflict, you can often tell where people sit based on conflict with what chair they're sitting in. Okay. So if there's, it reveals it.

It reveals it. It's actually one of the clues. Okay. So if somebody's in that left chair and there's, so let's say you and I are friends, Mindy, and you do something that really upsets me. I have pretty much three options of how I'm going to respond to you. if I'm in that left chair, I'm not going to go talk to you. I'm going to keep it to myself.

I might blame myself. I might think, oh my goodness, I might get fault. I'm a terrible friend, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to go talk to you, but I might go talk to Connie. And now what I've done is I've just created a triangle. Oh, triangulation. Triangulation is that. So toxic.

Toxic. And we see triangulation in the workplace. We see triangulation in families. we see triangulation and friendships. And it's toxic because now I'm not honoring you behind your back. I'm disrespecting you. You don't even know that I'm upset. And I'm talking about you to somebody else.

So it's so toxic. So well said. Okay. So that is passive aggressive or triangulation. People in that right chair, they tend to be very aggressive. You're the problem. You're at fault. They tend to use language of you.

You're wrong. You're the problem. so the word you and they blame. So I will, and a lot of times I might bring a whole bunch of other people kind of with me. Okay. We see this a little bit with, certainly with kids and teenagers, but we still see it in the adult, in the adult place as well. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, the workplace. Yeah. We see it in politics. Yes. Yes. You know what? That is well said. You know what?

Trust me, when I watch, because I watch your news every night, what I see in terms of the news, I'm filtering. through where, like, I have a pretty good sense, I think about where people actually sit. What chair do they actually sit in? You just have to, you know, once you kind of know the language, you kind of know with what to look for. But, oh, yes. The person in that right chair, they bring their groupies with them.

Oh, yeah. To make them feel really tough. Okay. And then they, yeah. They cancel. Oh, yeah, yeah. Anybody else. Totally.

They're like, nope. You're not my friend. Yes. Yes. They will kind of, they will literally kind of get rid of everybody else. The person in that middle chair, so, again, again, if you're my friend and you've done something, I'm going to have the courage to go up to you. I'm going to say, you know, Mindy, can we like, let me know what you've got like a little bit of

time to chat. I'm going to keep it one-on-one. I'm not going to talk about it with anybody else. And I will be assertive. And the keyword with assertive is I. I think, I feel I need, this is how I see it. How do you see it? And so I will stand up for myself, but it's a conversation.

That's so well said. This is how I see it. How do you see it? It's how do you see it? It's such a compassionate way to handle a conflict. Well, and the focus will be on problem solving. Like this is the issue. Here's how I see it.

How do you see it? How can we solve this together? Yeah. Okay. So that is, but what's interesting as an eight female on the enneagram, even though I try as best as I can to do that, with other women, not men, but with other women, I will sometimes get perceived as aggressive.

Yeah. Because just because I'm standing up for myself, it's like, oh, that's aggressive. I'm like, no, actually, that's not aggressive. It's being assertive and it's actually setting boundaries. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a whole other discussion because I think that part of the patriarchal world that we live in is not used to women standing up like that.

And I watch this really acutely lately about how men are quick to to to bring. brag about themselves. I'll even see it here on this podcast when I'm interviewing, like men who might be putting a book out. They have no qualms about just like, this is who I am. I'm amazing. And they are. And here's my book. And everybody needs it. And they're just super clear. Whereas women will tend to be a little more like, you know, I wrote this book, if it's helpful, you might like it. Right. But if a book stands, a woman stands up and is like, hey, this is my book. It's amazing. You tend to be conditioned to be like, well, wow, aren't you gold?

Yeah. So I do think there's something in the patriarchal world that women have learned to sit in that left chair because so many men, and I don't know if you've ever done studies on this, of more women sit in the right than compared to the left. And so if they go to try to even set boundaries in the middle, they can feel like they've come across as the right chair person. And they might feel 100%. and they might, they will get a different response from women versus men.

Yes. So men will be like, and I think that's kind of why I, as a teenager, I actually had a lot of my closest friends for guys because I didn't like the drama. I'm like, like, I'm not interested in. I'm like, and you know what's funny, Mindy, a lot of my closest girlfriends now, my inner circle, when we were in New York for the weekend and celebrating my early 50th that's coming up and we were talking about, we were talking about. friendship. And that's actually one of things. A lot of my closest girlfriends now,

that is a common thread, is that none of us did girl drama. We all, almost all of us had really got great guy friends. And in that, but it's tricky. Having a lot of guy friends works really great until you get married. And then you're like, oh, this, I don't think this is going to work anymore. I got to think I got to change my paradigm a little bit. So, because men won't care about that. Yeah. So I, I would say all my closest friends would say the same thing. Okay. They always have gravitated more to men than women because they don't do the drama.

So, yeah, there's so many places. I just want to say thank you for the three chair analogy. I really think something tangible like that helps us navigate something as untangible as relationships. So for starters, this is brilliant. And I hope everybody shares this episode out and like keeps the conversation going because it's even in the time we've been talking. talking, you've given me some clarity on things I've been really thinking about over the last

week. So, so thank you for that. And before I ask you the last question, tell me how people, tell everybody how they find you. You have this women's entrepreneurial mastermind. They can join if they feel moved to do that. You have your book, your TED Talk. Where do they find you? So two places. Instagram is great at Dr. Karen, Gordon. And Karen is with a Y, everybody. So sometimes you might be looking for Karen with an E. So Dr. Karen Gordon, Karen with a Y, on Instagram and our website, dkleadership.org. We've got all kinds of different courses and different resources for both organizations and families.

That's who we serve. We serve both. And we really try to teach leadership development that you can apply to all parts of your life, which people like. I find people just want tools that you can apply to all parts of our life. And that's really with what we do. Yeah. And I will tell you that, you know, just to fill everybody else in, that our whole team

is going through your DK leadership. work right now. And the course that they're on and the feedback we're getting is amazing. Everybody's like, hey, if you haven't gone on to this course, this isn't just about business, this is about life and everybody's really excited about it. So yeah, so thank you. I really appreciate that. Okay, here's my last question. And this is this one, I'm so curious what you're going to say because I know you well. What's your super, what's your superpower? What superpower do you bring to the world? Ooh, superpower.

That's a good question, Mindy. What is my superpower? I think my, when I think about the work that I do, it is like I can see, I can see vision. Yeah. I see vision. Like when I start working, whether it's with a person or a team or a family or a couple, I don't see where they're at. I see where they can be.

Ooh, that's like, I kind of like. I can like, you know, my hobby, you know this, my hobby is in tier design. I love, so give me like a crappy old house that's falling apart. And I'm like, I know what I can do. And so I do that on my hobby. I can kind of go in and just, it's like taking stuff down and putting things back and let's read. And so I do that on the design, just kind of for fun for my personal side.

But from my work side, I think I really do the same thing. Like when we start working with people, people feel totally overwhelmed. They feel totally insecure. they feel they're like, oh my God, I don't even know where to start. Like they just feel so depleted. And I'm like, it's okay. Like I see where you can go and I know the steps you need to take. So just like, I'm going to take it by the hand and I'm going to show you the path.

That is your superpower. And I feel like, yeah, and it just gives hope to people, right? Like I'm like, I'm, and so I think that would be my superpower because we work with some really tricky situations, really tricky teams, really tricky families. And I've just done this for so long. I know, I know kind of with what works. And I think just in that creating a safe place for people to be really vulnerable, I think. Yeah.

So I think that's my superpower. It's a good question. I never been asked that before. Yeah. You know, I think we all have a superpower and we don't highlight it enough. And so I really, and I find people's superpower really interesting. It's something that actually, and maybe why I ask this question, it's something that I think about when I'm interacting with somebody.

Okay. is like, what's their superpower because I always want to learn from people. Yeah. So I just have to say thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much, Mindy. This is so fun. I know. I know.

And I'll see you in a couple weeks in Arizona. Exactly. Yeah. Amazing. Beautiful. Thanks so much, Mindy. Love you. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode.

I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.