The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 108. Mhairi Black: Independence, inequality, and the future of the SNP

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

What was it like entering Parliament as the youngest MP? How has the SNP’s approach to campaigning for Scottish independence changed since the 2014 referendum? What does the future hold for the SNP and Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK? Rory and Alastair are joined by former MP Mhairi Black to discuss all this and more. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [e-mail] Podcast editor: Aaliyah Akude Assistant Producer: India Dunkley Video Editor: Teo Ayodeji-Ansell Social Producer: Jess Kidson Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to the restispolitics.com. That's the rest is politics.com. You're about to hear Alastair and me talk to the extraordinary Scottish politician Mary Black. And it was a really enjoyable conversation. We get going into many, many different things. Character and politics, the culture of politics. A lot about the US election and Donald Trump. This was actually a really. recorded before the US election. You'll pick that up as the conversation goes forward. But I think it's mesmerizing listening, particularly on what the experience of a young person entering Parliament at the period that she did was and what it tells us about the state of our democracy. Welcome to the rest of his politics with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alice Campbell, with Mary Black. With Marie Black. And we're sitting here, Alistair, I mean, genuinely, it's amazing. We're on a bus and it's a black sort of leather bus. It's a gray bed sort of. This bus, this bus, this bus,

Eight beds. It's like a rock star bus. It is a rock star bus. Right. This bus is normally used by rock stars. Right. Who go on the road and... So, he's got eight beds on it.

And it's got a shower. And as you keep saying, we don't really want... We don't really want to think about all the stuff that happens. I don't. I don't. I don't. Now, luckily, however, to raise the tone, we have with us, Marie Black, who entered Parliament when I was in Parliament, I saw a lot of her.

Not particularly socially actually. And she was a very, very visible figure around Parliament, a very dramatic figure because she had come in to the House of Commons at the age of 20, which is, I mean, record-breakingly young. And she very rapidly made a name for herself. She got, I think, 10 million views for her maiden speech. Which is pretty rare for her maiden speech. It's unbelievable. It's like the sort of fifth of the entire adult population of Britain is watching the maiden speech. Mine was watched just by my mum.

And I think she's become a really interesting figure in so many different. different ways. And the thing is that the reason we're talking to, we talked to her, the guy she beat him Paisley, Douglas Alexander a few weeks ago, who's now back in Parliament. The reason I thought it would be interested to talk to her is because she's now gone the other way. She's decided, I've had enough. I can't face it, I'm leaving. And she's, I think, you know, I've talked before. Your book, you found politics very, very difficult. But I think for a very different reason, she found it incredibly difficult. I think she loathes what happens in Parliament. And I think she's also somebody who's very, very interesting on this phenomenon about the

SMP, which is that it's kind of, it's a bit left, it's a bit right, it's a bit social to conservative, it's a bit, it's a bit radical, it's a bit this, it's a bit that. And I think she's very much on that kind of left side of the SMP and with some very, very strong views. And I think found some of the stuff that happened with the leadership very, very difficult to deal with. She having defeated Douglas Alexander at the age of 20, he having now gone back in, she's going in the other direction.

And just at the age of 30 is now going to be. a former MP by her own choice. So let's talk to Murray back. It's lovely to have her here. And Rory, wouldn't you kick us off? So, Murray,

can we start, I guess, at the beginning? I mean, what kind of child were you? What kind of person were you? What would you have been like to meet as a,

I don't know, a seven-year-old or a 10-year-old? Well, when I was seven, it was actually one of my first times getting involved in anything political. And it was against the Iraq War. You went down to try to get to Iraq War.

You were seven. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I didn't have much of a choice in it, to be fair. But, yeah, no, I always remember that. I've been asking, right, what's all this about? And then just kind of soaking it all up.

You were heading out there to find Tony Blair and just have it out with it. Well, no, it turns out he'd left on a helicopter hours before. So it was a big march for no more than getting your steps. A young person think about the fact he wasn't there when you turned up. I mean, at that point, if I'm being totally honest, my feet hurt. And that was my main priority. But looking back, I think, I know, that's. I mean, I get you're a busy person, but poor show.

So just tell me a little bit about your parents. What were they like? To be fair, my whole family was political, not in the sense of party politics, but in the sense of being involved in trade unions and keeping an eye on what's happening and talking about politics. You know, it was something that I only appreciated

as I got older was how there was really no topic that was barred in our house. You know, it's like that phrase, don't talk about religion or politics. I'd never heard that. And when I first heard the phrase, I was like, well, what do you talk about? In that sense, I was blessed

and being brought up with such a talkative and articulate and political family in that sense. They were the first of their generation to go to university and stuff. So, yeah, no, they were pretty traditional labour. My whole family was, as much of Scotland was. And that was kind of the basis from where we were always coming at things.

Okay, you're always an SMP supporter. I was always an independence supporter. Okay. Because I refer the eye words. I do, I do, because I think that nationalism... Is right wing? Yeah, it has so many connotations to it that are very ugly and are completely against the values that I hold dear.

And you can conversation about civic nationalism, which is different from other forms. But by that point, I think, well, you've lost the point if you're getting pedantic about things. I remember reading about Nicola Sturgeon's journey and that was quite interesting and I wondered if you sort of think she's a different generation to you I guess. Yeah.

But she went through a journey of being quite a bright student and then I think she became increasingly worried that the Labour Party had basically gone quite right wing. She also had strong views on the Iraq war. Yeah. And so I just wondered what has changed in generations? What do you think her experience, I guess in the 80s where she's trying to arrange herself about has Labor stood up to Margaret Thatcher properly? what choices are being made with Tony Blair

and then you I guess am I right maybe 20 even 30 years younger what changed in being so I mean I joined the SMP in 2011 I'm sure and that was the first time anyone in my family had as far as I'm aware had actually formally joined a political party and the only reason I had joined it was because

I thought well we're getting a referendum if we do this and it was the independence factor that was really driving it. And I think for people like, maybe not totally Nicola Sturgeon, but of her generation, I think it was almost like you had to know somebody in the SMP to even know it existed in a sense, because for a long time the SMP were a fringe party. You know, you look back far enough. They were a very right wing fringe party. And as that has changed over the years, I think the beginning of the swing was in the 80s with Thatcher. Because I think when people in Scotland started to realise how do we get rid of her?

We're turning out every election and we're voting overwhelmingly against her and yet she's still destroying communities all over Scotland and that I think set a fire off in a lot of of folks' bellies that has been rumbling for a good long while

and then 2011 was the time where it all came ahead. You won't have any memory of it but knowing what you do now about the devolution changes that we made in up to 1997. I think we all always thought that would satisfy, to some extent, the desires that you're talking about. But do you think actually it fuelled them? Do you think that devolution movement fuel the

SMP? Do you know, genuinely, I think both, to be honest, because there's still in the SMP, there's a division and thought about whether devolution is too slow a game, or whether it should just be kind of hold fast and you hold out for the full thing and nothing less. So, in the one hand, had I been in labour at that time, I would have thought. the same devolution is the best thing you can do and to an extent it still is the best thing you can do to sort of pierce the

independence bubble but I think the difficulty then is how much do you devolve before you have to concede right well we might as well just give you power over everything then because it's we've kind of already started broaching the edge of how far we can take

devolution you said you joined at 2011 but of course what I guess the person listening isn't fully taking in is that that's you at sort of 1516 isn't it? So this is quite... Yeah, I was 16, I think. And you also went to university very, very young. Yeah, I was 16 when I started uni as well. And that was, you went to Glasgow? Yes, went to Glasgow. So that's, and then you went to the House of Commons when you're, to spoil the story for the listener, 20, right? So it feels like a very kind of accelerated life. Absolutely. Tell us a little bit up what that's like as a teenager moving that fast.

I think in some senses I was just in the right place at the right time, because, like I say, so I joined the party in 2011. 2012 it was announced. We're getting the referendum. And then the following two years, I just spent campaigning. And can I understand? I mean, why did you go to university? You went to this prestigious university very young, right?

So, because I was, so I left it the end of fifth year. I wish it was that. And I was just ready to move on. I was done with school. I couldn't have stomached another year. And I thought, right, I'm going to try my hardest and see if I can get into it. any university and I managed to get in. Most the other students starting would have been 18, right?

18 plus. In hindsight, I think going to university when I did was actually the perfect training ground for what I did next because I was this young, younger than everybody else knew, didn't know what I was doing, this old institution, this world famous established institution where everybody's older than me.

Where did I end up? in another old institution where everyone's older than me. When did you think first think you might become an MP? Genuinely, it was about halfway through the election campaign. You didn't think you were going to win?

No. You were up against Douglas Alexander in person. I didn't expect to win at all. But I thought I'm going to make him work for it. I think if I'm just being realistic and honest, that's where my head was at. I've gone, I'll just do everything I possibly can because I don't like this. Just being taken for granted.

How does you campaign against him? So this is a very, very well established MP who'd been in there, I guess, since just after 97, very well connected. And the Labour Party had been in the cabinet, being a sexually state, comes from sort of labor aristocracy in Scotland. His sister was a big deal in Scottish politics, etc. And you're a 19-20-year-old. Mouse.

So what was your, if you were trying to persuade a voter, not to vote for this person, vote for you, what was your critique of him? What would you say? Unless it's warranted. I don't like criticising people individually. I think you can talk about the politics of it and how people vote and the things that they argue for but I never went straight in on Douglas

because also I didn't know him. You know, I rarely met the guy. I spoke to him briefly in the street once. So when I was on the doorsteps, I just talked about politics. I would just say, what's wrong with this constituency and let folk talk to me

and then that's how the conversation would start and it's only through talking with, people like that that you start to understand what's the issue that's sticking for them, you know, what's the I suppose the watermark for them of going right now I'm convinced and for different

people it's different things. Just to follow up one more. I mean, why do you think they voted in the end for you and not Douglas Alexander what was it that he was failing to offer in that vision and what were you offering in your vision? I think it was a combination of there was a national swing happening undoubtedly

but I do think that the local campaigning is what pushed us over the edge because what I do remember about that campaign in 2015 was we, the SMP, were so visible. We had so many activists and you went to the high street, you went in the middle of schemes and suddenly there's 20 people

with little SMP boards and all knocking doors whereas Labour didn't have any of that at the time and I suppose that was again feeding into this their technology was for granted here. So I do think it was a combination of the both happening. So you won, and at the time you were the youngest MP

elected since the Great Reform Act. 1832. You made a pretty powerful maiden speech which really kind of had a lot of impact. But you talked in there about town centres deteriorating, communities in decline, unemployment levels,

child poverty, food banks, etc., etc., etc. But how much has the Scottish government, the SMP government, actually address those issues. Now that you're out of it, I can see why you might have had a critique of labour, which I might defend, but I can see where you had that critique. Do you not have to have the same critique of the SMP government as well? And just to add to what extent now that you've left, do you feel you can be more open about that, whereas you would have been more defensive about it beforehand? Well, I suppose it's more,

now I can say what I would say behind the scenes, but I can do it publicly. You know, that's a very freeing thing. So genuinely, I think. think there are examples of where the Scottish government over the last 17 odd years have, for want of a better term, have made a marce of things, you know, in different examples. So there's no getting away from that. But equally... On policy? Ah. On policy. And maybe less so policy and more on how they're actually delivering that policy and the practicalities of it. I think that's where we've been tripped up quite a few times. But I do also think it's. It's very true though, that fundamentally the big levers and where the big decisions are made that will change people's lives in terms of work opportunities, that's Westminster. And there's only so much you can blame the devolved governments because I think ultimately there's everything they try to do.

They've got one hand tied behind their back. So by no means perfect, definitely not. But I do not think they are to blame. You said that you went from one institute where the youngest person. and Glasgow University and then you end up in another one, Parliament. I don't know if you've read Rory's book

about Parliament because he didn't like it much either. But you, it seems to me, really felt this place is just awful. I had a good conversation with she was the deputy speaker at the time, Eleanor Lang. And after I'd announced

that I wasn't standing again, she came over and was so surprised and shocked and I was like, really, Eleanor, have you listened to anything? So we sat down and we're talking and because I was younger I do think there was an element of the things that I found outdated

or unacceptable were so much more visible to me because I hadn't, you know, been there for... You hadn't grown up with it? So what kind of things we're talking about? Just even general... I mean, bullying is rife in that parliament. What sort of bully?

Like, just bad people being able to intimidate others into doing what they want rather than actually treating people with equal respect. You're talking about whips, you talk about ministers. Oh, across the board, it's different people, different levels. I've met whips like that. I've met backbench MPs like that.

I've met leaders like that. It's a people issue rather than being a, you know, any one role, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of money. It's a very unpleasant. I mean, I remember almost my first day in the House of Commons. You tried to learn the rules and there are no proper rules. and we were told that if there wasn't a little card on the chair, we could sit where we wanted.

So I very shyly come and sit down on my green bench, and this big guy next to me says, you can't sit there and my friend's going to sit there and I was like, but everything else is full. I don't know what else to sit. And he turns to me and he just says, fuck off. And this guy's been in since, you know,

13 years longer than me. This guy later threatened to punch me behind the speaker's chair. Come on, name names. But it's a very, I mean, I think it's a horrible culture. Yeah. And the whole culture is all about, I don't know whether it's probably not quite as bad in the S&P,

but in the big parties, it's certainly all about loyalty, teamwork. Oh, no, just as bad. Just as bad. Yep. Because people always say to me, oh, why are you leaving politics? And there's part of me that thinks,

I'm not leaving politics. I've left elected politics and party politics and they're very different things. You know, politics is everywhere. It's in, you know, the price of the food that's in, what transport's available, how much you're getting paid, it's everywhere. But I think the party politics, that's the bit where I think it's,

I'm not suited for it at all. And I don't know that any honest person really can thrive in it. So you won three elections, but still relatively young, you decided to pack it in. Do you feel you achieved anything? For individuals, definitely. Yeah, we did. I mean, of course, like everyone talks about casework. can help a constituent. It genuinely has a great feeling, particularly when you're as frustrated as I felt in Parliament, particularly because we were in fewer numbers, you know, so Scotland's only got 57 MPs now.

So you're in a situation where all of the MPs for one city can outvote the second largest nation in the UK, so it's kind of set up to fail from the get-go. And even when I tried to play the game and get the cross-party support and everything, knocked my pan in and it just, again, brick wall thrown right up. And that was what I thought, this is all so performative in here. This is everybody knows what's expected of them. And we just keep running round this sort of hamster wheel. One of the things that struck me immediately is that

you get an impression that debates are about persuading the other side. And what I learned very quickly is that everybody's voting on a three-line whip make the best argument in the world. Labour all troops through one lobby, Tory's all troops do the other lobby, and forget about it. In fact, that's if anyone's paying attention to the speeches at all rather than looking at their phones and drifting off and doing whatever. Because I remember very early on I had pointed out to somebody that the best debates are the ones where the chamber's empty because all the heat's taken out of it and suddenly there's no speech limit. And the folk who are there tend to be there because they actually care and understand and have an in-depth knowledge about what they're talking about. And there can be a really interesting back and forth.

But when it's important or when the place is packed, you write speeches for your... social media clip. You don't do it to try and convince anybody's mind in there. That chamber is just theatre. Now you're out though. Have you got any ideas as to how you might improve it? Realistic ideas that the system might accept to change or do you just think you've given up thinking it can change? No, no, I absolutely think it can change, but no matter what angle it is, whether it's being the actual practicalities of how the Parliament functions, whether it's a case of the culture in the Parliament or what, I think the first thing that they have to get over is this obsession with tradition for tradition's sake

and I've always said I totally appreciate that tradition is an important thing and it's how you connect generations to each other but when that tradition starts to become dysfunctional or a barrier to doing the work you're supposed to do then not needs to go and that's where I think if even changing the shape of that chamber

I think could make a difference would you not have thought of going to the Scottish Parliament No. Truthfully because I think two things. One, I think I'd be flung out the SMP within a week. Because? Just because I'd find too much to disagree with. But I think the main point why I wouldn't do it is because I think, like I said at the start, Westminster's where the power lies that really changes lives, that fundamentally changes society. It's not the Scottish Parliament. This thing about disagreeing and being flung out is, I guess, one of the big, big questions of politics, isn't it? How do you combine your own sense of integrity and your beliefs with the other view that it's a team sport and it's about loyalty? And Alistair was very much at the other end at this, right? I mean, he's sitting there in number 10 trying to run a system with Tony Blair.

And what he wants is people loyally trooping into the lobby, getting behind whatever they're trying to do. And he's not very amused by people like you and me saying, Yes. You know, we've got some idealistic idea and we disagree with exactly what the government's supposed to. We never chucked Jeremy Corbyn at the party, though. You never chucked Jeremy Corbyn. That's true.

Did you ever give them the Malcolm Tucker? Don't be able to look. But yeah, I guess, I mean, we were both at the Democrat convention and I was very struck and impressed in a way by the way that AOC was very kind of loyal and, you know, dropped her views on. It's an awful thing to say, but I mean, dropped many views on things that I agree with her on. in order to support her leader, take on Trump win the election? I think it's kind of the fundamental battle that goes on.

I think in every point of politics is trying to find the balance between what's right and what will work. You know, and very rarely are those two things exactly the same, if that makes sense. So the right thing to do is to stand by your beliefs and to hold fast and particularly if it's minorities you're talking about, because you might be the only voice that they have on their side. So no, you hold fast. But then equally, you have to play the long game

and you have to go right. But if we compromise on this one thing, that gets one step further up the ladder. You know, it's something you can build on. And that's where, I think, unless a political party actually can demonstrate internally that they have that plan that will take them up the ladder, that's when the wheels start coming off.

I'm fascinated by this particularly at the moment because I guess if you are a congressperson or a senator the Democratic Party at the moment, the whips have got the key card, which is we're going up against Donald Trump. This is such an evil man. Forget about all your ideals, forget about what we are one team, one voice. So I was against fascism, basically.

Exactly. And you can imagine how frustrating that must be for you. You might want to talk about Gaza, you might want to talk about child tax credit. And you're just being told no. Yeah. But again, I think it's that balance, I suppose, because if I was sitting there,

I would be thinking, right, I don't want to drop all this stuff. I tell you what, if Trump gets in, there's not a chance that I'm going to be able to affect any kind of change whatsoever. So right, on balance, I will hold my tongue for this until we get over that hurdle. And I think that's okay. That's part of being a grown-up about things. But I guess you would, in practice, it could be very tough.

Oh, definitely. Because, you know, you could be input on television. They could, you know, ask your position on Gaza, and you sort of equivocate or you avoid the question because you know the party line is something different. And then all your supporters are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's just done? She's just sold us out. Absolutely that happens. I suppose, again, that's where it comes down to your own judgment, a case of am I willing? Would I be comfortable sticking up for myself? The way I would always play these things through in my head is if I was sitting in the pub

where people, would I be able to justify this without bullshit in them or myself? And if I'm able to do that, then I think, right, no, this has got logic to it. Okay, Mary, Rory, quick break. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers. The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung Vax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer.

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Hi everybody, it's Dominic Samaruk here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Rest history, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class

that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues. And people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain, and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now,

whether you love her or loathe her. And we'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1970s. a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you?

Of course it sounds good to you. we have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode and if you want to hear more just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts Do you think you made any real friends in Parliament? A couple, yeah, yeah, but I mean I could count them on one hand definitely and they're people that you still see a lot of yeah I mean less so now just because we're not you know travelling down

stuck there all the time but yeah no I still keep in touch with them But no, it was quite a lonely experience, certainly when I started. I mean, for a multitude of reasons, but particularly because I just felt like there was nobody that I was talking to that I would gel with. You know, and I mean, everyone experiences that themselves. It's a lonely feeling when that happens. But eventually you build bridges with people, you learn more. The obvious problem that I have and I guess you have when we talk about how grim it is, is you've got a. honest to saying, but you've got to encourage all these young people to go into politics. You've got to be

optimistic. You've got to be idealistic. How do you deal with that? I don't think the two necessarily are mutually exclusive, I think. When I'm asked that, you know, oh, this sounds terrible. Why would anyone get involved in it? And that's where part of me goes, well, the reason you should get involved, because it's no changing unless you do get involved. But equally, if I'm standing here trying to convince you, you and you to get involved in politics, I'm not sending you in there blind. I want you to know the reality of what you're

walking into because in a lot of ways that's kind of the biggest shock to the system is suddenly you're in this building and it's a bubble onto itself and it's got its own etiquettes, its own norms and its own culture that to the outside world are just alien.

When I'm being mean to Honestra, I sometimes think in my mind he's a bit like those guys doing the kind of recruiting for the First World War who show pictures and knights in shining armor and they're not really revealing what it's like in the trenches. Yeah, that's a touch of that. The whole Alex Salmon, Nicola Sturgeon journey, story, called it what you will.

What was your take on that? There was a time when they looked kind of almost impregnable as a political force. And Alex's first minister, then Nicola First Minister. And I mean, obviously we're talking not long after Alex Salmon died, but they both went in directions for all sorts of reasons that it's very high. to work out exactly what happened.

I mean, I'll start by saying, I also don't know what happened. But certainly from my perspective, I suppose it's much easier to toe the line and hold your tongue and maybe ignore certain or let things go when you're experiencing unprecedented success. And I think that's where kind of the beginning of the SMPs troubles was that particularly after the referendum in 2015 when we had this burst and became the third largest part,

party in the UK. The SMP as an organisation wasn't built to deal with that level of engagement. So you had this period where it was just everybody had to get stuck in because we would be completely overwhelmed otherwise. And I remember the phrase that gets said to me was, we're building the plane as we're flying it. And that's what it felt like to a large extent. And everybody's willing to pitch in and do their best so long as they can see where the destiny is but I think as time went on it became much more fractious it became foggy

if you like and forth go I can't see where we're actually headed never mind where we're landing has anybody checked there's a wing on this you know it's it started to feel like that and I suppose there's only so long that you can contain that feeling and that

mood that it's bubbling away underneath the surface and particularly for the parliamentarian side eventually it's going to come to a head And the kind of things that you might have thought would split the SMP apart, mid-20, 30 years ago, maybe split on the questions of, I don't know, the monarchy, or it might split on sort of fundamental questions of economic analysis. It turned out not to be the things that caused the problem. It turned out to be, for example, fights around things like transgender. Why did those issues more than the issues that I guess from a distance would seem to matter more directly to your constituents become the issue?

that told things about. So when this episode goes out, my Twitter messages are going to be out of control for what I'm about to say. But truthfully, I don't think it was ever about the trans issue, and I'm using inverted commas there.

I think that was just a proxy and almost a battleground for where separate grievances could play out. And I have no doubt that it was a very deliberate choice to choose that ground. What was the deeper politics going on?

Was it political? Was it political? What was going on? I think both. By that point, there was a lot of bridges burned between different people. There was a lot of animosity that had built up, a lot of impatience that had built up. And I think also because there didn't seem to be any clear strategy for what was coming next, that's when people just started, oh, no, well, I'm going to go off and do this thing or this thing. And eventually folk end up down rabbit holes. In the Conservative Party, often ideas sit together. So if people have a particular idea about trans,

often there's a sort of family of other issues that they'll. Was that true there that you felt that you could sense other splits politically? Can you give us an example of other groups of ideas or disagreements? Yeah, so I suppose actually the fundamental thing that the SMP in particular has to wrestle with is that the only thing that unites the SMP is independence. I've always said when Scotland becomes independent, the SMP will break up. And if it doesn't break up, it will become an irrelevance because they've served its purpose. And where I think we did start to see that real success is when the SMP moved to the left,

and not just socially, but also economically. And there was a period where it did look like we were really going in that direction and charging. Let's come back to that, but just before that you do that, on the left-right spectrum. Yeah. So you'd be on the left. Uh-huh. Where would Alex Sam and Nicholas Sturgeon, Humsier, Husser, Yusuf and John Swinney be?

I think Nicola would be to the left, but not as left as me. I think she's more closer to the centre. I think John Swinney is, I think he's more right wing, to be honest. Economically? Yes, economically. But everything else about him is more left-leaning. And who else did you say? Alex.

Alex, I would say, genuinely, I think Alex. went where he felt he needed to be because of course he started off was very far left and just gradually moved and when he moved on to his Alba stuff he's just not to speak ill of those who have passed but a charlatan with

those beliefs. That's quite ill of those who found. Just for international listeners what was this whole Alba project? It wasn't very successful in the end. He must have assumed that his personal charisma was incredibly important. This was a new, his party as a rival to the S&A. He was a guy who

had a reputation as being a sort of magical rainmaking politicians. So at some points he must have felt I'm the secret to the S&P and I can make a new party and I can. So I, I mean, he was unpolitical to his bones, you know, definitely. And he had a mind that was sharper than most, certainly when it came to politics. And his ability to spot opportunity and to also sort of game plan in his head. I think that he was incredible at that but the problem was his ego was in my opinion was just as big as his talent was and when you are able to take a party to success and you're the face of it and you start to believe your own hype then all of a sudden anybody challenging you oh well they're the problem it's not that i have to reflect it's that you are all you know not appreciating the genius that you have

before you and i think his time went on particularly when he lost his seat in 2017 I think he think the reality kind of hit that he didn't have the same sway or he wasn't able to demand things and they just happened anymore. So that also mixed in with a lot of the personal stuff as well, I think, on the scale where he would be. I would say he's probably beside Nicola left. I just sort of trying to develop this, because this is an interesting idea in politics. You've pointed out that in Germany, the far left party essentially now is the personal vehicle of a sarah vaguenkriect yeah and so she managed this

I mean she basically broke away, created her own party and so what's your sense of why Alex Salmon isn't wasn't able to do it in a way that she was? I think because Nicholas Sturgeon in a sense became what he had become in terms of the sense of she was then the success. I think Alec laid

excellent groundwork and she was able to just take it almost and then I think all the sort of personal scandal stuff really really damaged him. The culture isn't different, isn't it? Because obviously there are politicians and Boris Johnson, etc., who seem to be able to have scandal and ride it through.

I mean, part of, this is just me talking about my experience when all that the scandal was coming out and everything. What really appalled me was the number of people who suddenly felt able to talk more freely about their experiences with Alec.

And I'm not meaning criminal, I just mean in terms of his bullying nature. I would think, wait, so this really has been going on for years, you know, because, I mean, mine and Alex's relationship deteriorated very quickly because I didn't hold my tongue, but it was just

very obvious that there was clearly a culture of folk were scared of him, or intimidated by his presence and his ability to, I suppose, get things done seemingly. So maybe the differences, and that wasn't compensated for, I guess with a kind of terrible human

being and a terrible prime minister like Boris Johnson, you get the sense that there was also some people had a form of affection for him and loyalty for him that kind of compensated for the horrendous behaviour. But maybe Alex was sort of lacking that kind of... I mean, don't get me wrong, he could be very charismatic as well, you know. And he knew how he work a room, you know. And if he wanted to appear, you know, calm and cuddly and fun,

he was very capable of doing it, you know. And, I mean, there was a period of time, certainly, 2014. Well, I thought, oh, this guy seems quite nice. But then, of course, you get to know people more. And then with Nicholas Sarton, I mean, Again, from the outside, after things have gone wrong, we look at it and we think, how is it possible for her husband to have been the chief executive at the party while she was the leader of the party? Did nobody say this is not good governance procedure?

I mean, yes, Nicola's husband, Peter, was actually put in post by Alex Amund. So when Nicola became leader, he was already chief exec. And at that time, there was a lot of people saying, well, this isn't a good look. What are you doing? Separate this. but it was one of the things where once everybody complained about it it just kind of went, stopped thinking

about it, you know, there was other things happening, then we had an election win, then we had another election win, and then I suppose it kind of taps back into your loyalty thing of it's easy to fall into place when you're winning, you know, it's when those outside the organisation start to see the cracks

that you've known exist that's when it becomes harder to am I, should I step out of this? You know, and I suppose your loyalty becomes with much more of a heavy price. Your point about the kind of breadth of view that you have within the SMP, if you take away independence, that came to the fore as well when Kate Forbes was running to be leader.

Totally. I just wonder how you and she coexisted in the same kind of political space. I mean, like you're gay, you're married. Yep. Her views on that would be. Not if she was in charge, I wouldn't be. You know? Yeah.

Oh no, it's totally. I think, again, it's a part of. of that. People keeping things to themselves are holding back a lot because it seems the most beneficial thing to do. But of course as you're getting higher and higher in the ranks, you've become more confident

and able to say no, this is what I think. And as well, because of the trans issue, again in inverted commas, but because of that, that kind of opened a very ugly can of worms within the SMP because the SMP does have very

socially conservative people on it. It also has economically conservative people in it. The social conservatism, it hadn't shown itself for a long time. And particularly during Nicholas' leadership, it was very much a, no, this is the direction we're going in. We believe in progress. We believe in equality and the rights of everyone. And then suddenly when, oh, so it's okay to challenge that now?

All right, well, since we're talking about the triangle, see those gaze that, you know, and suddenly it just unleashes. I think that was kind of what happened. Those beliefs have always been there. It's just that suddenly there was the opportunity to be able to talk about it. So if the glue of independence kind of weakens, it just crumbles. I think so, yeah. And I think that's partly why the SMP got such a bruising result in the general election

is because the outside world could see these cracks. They could see that we're not. And they could see maybe you hadn't delivered on the stuff that you talked about and you made in speech. Yeah. And I do think there's also an ellixt. of in that election there where people are just

so fed up. They want something to change and if you're not going to do it right or you'll do it and folk aren't as they don't have the same I suppose space to be able to get involved in politics because more and more people are spending every wake and minute just trying to

survive. It becomes much more difficult to get folk engaged. Tell us about what you do if you were Prime Minister. So Kirstalmer's come in. We're doing this interview exactly a hundred days into his time. And it certainly feels at the moment as though he hasn't really found his narrative. He's obviously not quite Jeremy Corbyn, not quite Tony. Now imagine Mary Black becomes Prime Minister. What fundamentally is your vision for where you would take,

I guess not Britain but Scotland, over 20, 30 years? What kind of economic policy? What kind of... Oh, I would be looking much more to the Scandinavian countries to see what's worked there and what hasn't. I think not just in terms of it likes for instance see a citizen's income, a basic income, I would implement that immediately. That would be the first thing so that at least we know there's some radical

change that's happened and it's actually putting pounds in people's pockets. So that would be the first thing. If you're going to fundamentally change society, you have to do it in tandem with each other. So education has to change in a way that for instance

mental health sector can actually provide this level of support that young kids need or that teenagers need or whatever, that then sets up a whole generation of young people who've had skills and abilities and support that the generations before them haven't had. When they then come out into the world, hopefully that would kind of change their way of thinking. And from there, you're able to, you know, there's folk who are going to have opportunities they never would have had.

They can go explore the world in ways that they're going to be. they couldn't before, like my folks being able to go to university. The only reason we were able to do that is because the then Labour government went, right, no, how much money you have shouldn't affect your ability to further your education? So what's your sense of why Kirstama isn't doing it? It looks like he's not going to be able to bring that kind of radical change. The impression I get is, well, first off, I don't think Kier Stammer's left wing. That's the first thing. I think he's a very pragmatic and practical to a fault to the point where I think

to an extent he's similar to Sammond and that he'll say what he has to say in order to get where he needs to go so his beliefs will change radically but I also think part of his issue is he doesn't know who he's picking a fight with and when your Prime Minister you need to know

what is it we're tackling and right now I think that he's so comfortable with his campaign slogans and the platitudes I think that's how we're starting to see him flounder well look if we had more time I would absolutely leap to his defence and speak for 25 minutes about the very good job that he's doing the amazing work. However, the producer has just pointed to her three fingers and a watch.

My last question is this. Two things really. Do you think in your lifetime, Scotland will be independent? And secondly, will you stay engaged in political campaigning, engaged in politics, or you just want now for the rest of your life to do new things? I'm absolutely going to stay engaged in politics. politics. Like I say, it's everywhere. You know, I think, especially when your brain's kind of hardwired to see the political angle of everything, it's hard to escape.

In my lifetime, I do think so. I have no doubt that Scotland will become independent. It's just a case of how and when it happens. But you don't think that the kind of watermark, the high watermark, Brexit just happened, Johnson's leading the country, making complete ass of it. You don't think that was the absolute peak of the independence movement? It should have been. I think it was definitely a peak, but no, I think we will get independence. But I suppose where I'm fearful is it will either be a civic movement that much like the Scottish Parliament being established, or it will be essentially, to put it crudely, England saying, no, we don't want you anymore. Just cutting off.

It will be one of the two of them. And I don't know which it will be, but I've no doubt that it will happen. My final question, do you ever feel guilty for Labour? Parliament, do you ever feel I should have stayed? I mean, I do, I guess is why I'm asking. I sometimes feel, because I found it very painful, very unpleasant. When people stop me, say, well, you know, why are you not going back? You know, when she run, I find it difficult to say, I just couldn't do that anymore.

Well, no, I don't feel guilty, because I suppose I always looked at it. Don't get me not like, I took the responsibility seriously, and it was a very heavy thing, and, you know, he's representing people, but it was a job. and I firmly believe that you work to live, know the other way about, and I'm a human being, and ultimately, if I'm miserable, then yes, in my head it might be for some grander cause

and some big thing, but you need to go with your gut, you can only do what you can do, and if your body and your mind's telling you, stop, going to stop, then I think if anything, it's, in a broad sense, it would be more selfish to stay

because then I would be representative, people in my heart's knowing it and I'm not being able to give my best and you know if you're tired it starts to show so in that sense no I don't feel guilty personally and professionally I think it's the right thing to do definitely well I wish you well for the rest of your life thank you you've got a long way to go because you're still one of the you're now one of the youngest ex-parliamentarians I know we'll see you what I do before I'm 40 then see no thank you for having us not at all thank you so much appreciate So, Rory, you've got a fellow utterly fed up with parliamenter.

Yeah, and it's interesting. I mean, I think our analysis of Parliament is different, but our emotional reaction to it is very, very, very similar, which makes me wonder whether we're not missing something, whether there isn't a kind of deeper structural similarity hidden behind the things that are wearing. You're basically a nationalist. You're all the scholars if you're dependent. Yeah, obviously she thinks the problem with Parliament is it's full of union, old Etonian, Toffs and Conservatives, which isn't obviously what I think from Parliament is.

But I imagine that what we're guessing at at a deeper level, when she talks about bullying, I think that's something I recognise there, about the whole culture of the place, when we talk about the way the whips work, the way that party loyalty works, the nonsense, the debating chamber. And one of the problems is that the solutions that we propose are never adequate. So when she says, well, you know, maybe change the shape of the debating chamber, get rid of some of the traditions. Well, basically, you then create the Scottish Parliament,

which she then admits she doesn't want to be in the Scottish Parliament either. Yeah, yeah. No, but I think I was fascinated by what she, the way she described all these different factions and tensions and how they came up. I hadn't really thought about what she said about the trans issue. And she's right. Lots of people would be really angry.

They'll say, what are you saying we don't really believe in what we say. But I think she gave a very good sense of that fact that you've got some very right-wing people in the S&P, you've got some very left-wing people, You've got some people who are very socially conservative. You've got some people who are very, very liberal. And what she seems to be saying is that, I mean, I love that thing she said that if independence did happen, the SMP kind of ceases to exist because it ceases to have a purpose. I hadn't really thought of that.

But I think she's a real loss to politics. I really do. I think she's got real character. I think she's really strong in terms of what she believes. And, you know, the reason she got 10 million views for her maiden speech is a bloody good speaker. I think it's sad that she's gone, I wish I wish she'd say. state. But I understand why she's gone. Yeah, I also wonder whether she's not pointing to something there, which is she talks about socially liberal, socially conservative and the opposite. And

in a way, all our politics are these sort of four quadrants, different types of people. Oddly, what I was picking up is the SMP doesn't really have the kind of one nation conservative type who'd be socially liberal and economically conservative, sort of relaxed about trans issues, but quite fiscally conservative. And that the group, that she's talking about are probably relatively socially conservative, but also quite economically interventionist, economically a little bit more left wing, which is the direction to a lot of the world is going. And I wonder, yeah, that's a very interesting thing that she's put a finger on, because I do often feel that as a Scot, that Scotland is more socially conservative

in many ways than England. Do you think so? Yeah, yeah. Although the leaders of the S&P and the sort of political class is very progressive. No, I think this is a country which often has a sort of odd relationship with itself. Sometimes it would be provocative. It's a country that sounds very pro-immigration but just doesn't have very many immigrants.

It's very, very white compared to other parts of the country. As interesting, because I remember we talked there about Kate Forbes and, you know, I know, because I talked before, Mary Black, about this, when Kate Forbes was running, she found it just incredibly difficult.

But I remember at the time, people in Scotland, central belt saying to me that you underestimate just how much people actually are quite close to Kate Forbes on this sort of issue. So yeah, maybe you've got a point. There's some ways, Scotland is a sort of odd combination of sounding very kind of progressive but also quite old-fashioned. I guess that's also true of Scandinavian countries, as we're seeing with the rise of the right in Scandinavianian. Yeah. Anyway, hopelessness enjoyed it. We did. I loved it. Right. Thank you very much, Alastan. Thank you for getting married. I really, I know,

I really, I really, I really want her. And I I thought I agree with you. She's a loss. And she's a great way of getting people thinking about politics. Yeah. Thank you.