The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 11: Gary Lineker: Politics, football and the BBC

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

Gary Lineker is regularly told to 'stick to football'. Now, after recently tweeting his views on the Government’s refugee policy, the Match Of The Day presenter sits down with Alastair and Rory to discuss his upbringing, life in the public eye, and what really happened after he was suspended (and later reinstated) in his role at the BBC. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive a weekly newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Email: [e-mail] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispoletics.com. Welcome to another episode with The Restis Politics Leading. With me, Alist Campbell.

And with me, Rory Stewart. And also in the background with an amazing dog called Philbert. And have you any idea, Rory, why the dog is called Philbert? Absolutely no idea why a dog. Does Philbert say anything to you in your... literally zero. I've never heard the name Philbert before. Philbert Street is the ground where a very well-known football team called Leicester City used to play. Oh my goodness. Rory, have you heard of Leicester City? And here coming in is the man from Leicester City. He did play

for Leicester City. Rory has managed through K-9 connection to give away our guest early on. Our guest is a former footballer. And Rory, what were the clubs that I told you he played for? So actually you didn't tell me he played for them But he did play, I believe, for Everton, for Tottenham, for Barcelona, and astonishingly for Nagoya, not a club that I'd head off. You must have done some research to know that one.

So he was then having been a footballer for these clubs and famously for England as a Golden Boot winner. Do you know what a Golden Boot does, how you get a Golden Boot, Roy? No, how you get a Golden Boot. You don't know how you get a Golden Boot. Golda Boot is awarded to the player who scores the most goals in a World Cup.

So he scored the most goals in the World Cup in 1986. Correct. You were at the World, the recent World Cup of Guitar. Was with the man himself the Redoubt interview, whose name we still haven't revealed yet to the audience. Who won the Golda Boot this time?

I don't know. We did win the Golden Bowl bit this time. That would be killing Mbapé. The reason why some of our listeners might have guessed who are interviewers is because his voice is quite well known and probably even more well known

since he stopped being a footballer because he then became a very well-known TV presenter. Hello. Hello there. I was a long intro. We're actually in Gary's home. So Gary, before we get on to the kind of football and politics, can we just start back with your childhood?

So you grew up in Leicester? And your dad did what? My dad was sold fruit on Leicester Market. How often? Every day? Or once a week? Every day, but Sunday and Monday. He would get up at 3.4.

in the morning go and buy all the fruit from the wholesaler, take it to the market store, set it all up, set it all day, come home, do his book work and then fall asleep. A market store was basically a huge table laid with fruit. It was no, it was like a square, so a square of, say, counters, and in the middle he stood. And I used to go and work on holidays, Christmas, because Christmas particularly because it was really busy for him.

And I think that made me want to be a footballer because it was too much like on work. And his grandfather, your grandfather, your great-grandfather? Yeah, they was all this family business. Did you know that me and Alastair went to the same school? No, he was just saying, and did you remember him at school? Did you know? No, no, no. What?

Was he not a legend for his football? By that stage. I hadn't played with Maradonna by then. I was three years old. The only reason he might have noticed me is because I never, ever, ever took off my Bernie scarf, ever. I once didn't have got his spell for it. Quite rightly, so I refused to take it off. But I remember Gary, because Gary was, he was already a bit of a football star and a cricket star.

Cricket star. I'd be a cricketer not a football of course. And it's a true. Obviously, I've been doing a little work on Wikipedia. I see that. Yeah, exactly. But it says that you started playing quite serious cricket

about the age of 11, is that right? I played both cricket and football. It was always serious to me. It's usually competitive sportsmen. You show me a sportsman that's not competitive. I'll show you someone's not very good. But at 11, you were sort of in the Leicester schools. Yeah, Leicester side.

Yeah. I'm Captain Lettershire schools right from under 11th until I left school. at 16. I don't remember. There was another kid at the school who people thought was going to be the footballer.

It was called Carl Jays. Yeah, I remember he was a goalkeeper. Yeah, he was goalkeeper. Yeah, he went to North Hampton, I think. Yeah. Pro career, yeah.

I mean, I remember people thinking he was like going to be the one. And you were good. I mean, everybody knew you were a good player. I was tiny though as a kid. I didn't really grow. I didn't reach puberty until I was about 17, which was pretty damn embarrassing in the showers.

Yeah. It was a high to the goal. Yeah. I know. So, I was so, and then I suddenly grew from 17 to 18, and then that's probably why my development, I was never like a child superstar. You know, it wasn't a Michael Owen or a Wayne Rooney or anything like that, or Jude Bellingham.

And what did you make of, um, that time, Lester, did you sort of think when you were signed as a pro, did you think you'd become what you became in terms of kind of establishing the international? Not at all. I dreamt of it. But to be absolutely frank, every level that I reached, I thought, hmm, this will find me out. I remember, you know, I was quite surprised they saw me in the first place as an apprentice,

but then I scored goals. And then I got in the reserve team. You know, when you play in the reserve team, you play with one and two of the players that are not in. They were kind of my, you know, players that I'd admired. And I thought, what am I doing here? And then I got on the first team, and I still managed to score goals.

But I never had that massive self-believe until I was probably in my mid-twenters. Who was that, too? Who was in that last year? People like Mark, Wallington was in goal. We'd add like Larry May, Andy Peek, Dave Buchanan.

I mean, even people like... Rory, what do you think of these names? I've lost. He's lost, lost. I've wondered actually, Alice has reminded me of this. So, Jock Wallace, it's a bit like Alistair, right? Kind of grumpy Scottish dude.

Absolutely. And I'll tell you, Jop Wallace. The first time I ever met Jop Wallace was a Lester Reserve game. He'd just got the job. As the manager. Yeah, it's a manager. I was the new manager.

I'd kind of just get into reserves. I was 17 at the time. And I came in to the dressing room at half time, and I sat down and Jock Wallace. First time I was seen, he marched in, slammed the door behind him. He was the size of Alice, a bit bigger, actually. Big wide, Scottish, super strong Scottish accent.

And he came in and he was going, you lazy little English shite and all this. And I thought, he's looking at me. And I thought, oh, God. And then he came over. And he quite literally picked me up by the scruff of the night and pinned me against the dressing room. You fuck effing this and you, you, fuck me it.

And I went, oh my God. I mean, I wouldn't mind it, but we were 2-0 up and I'd scored both goals. But I was a gibber in the second half. I was hopeless. And at the end of the game, he came in again. And I was trembling. I was like, oh. And he went, my office, 9 o'clock in the morning.

I went, okay, never slept to wing. I thought I was out. I thought I was it. my career was over. And I got there about 8.45 and I sat outside like the naughty boy and waiting for the headmaster. And he came in and he went, come in, laddie. Sit down. I went, okay, sat down, trembling.

And he goes, I just got something to say to you. You were magnificent last night. And I went, I beg you pardon. Sorry? He went, I just want to make sure you keep your feet on the ground. And I went, I'll thank you very much for that. You couldn't do that. I mean, I love Jock, though.

I mean, Jock made, you know, people talk about important people in your life. And it's very easy to go off the rails as a young teenage lad that's done quite well in football. But he made sure I didn't go out of night. I'm dedicated. And he just made sure I'd get myself the best possible chance to be successful. But that management style, presumably, has gone out of fashion. I would think so. I would think so.

Famous, you never got a yellow card, let alone a red card. I find that incredible. Never tackled anyone. No, but seriously, not even to lose your ragline. I know. It's not like it is now, Alistair. I mean, it's still ridiculous,

but it's not like it is. Everyone get, I get a yellow card now just for being in possession of large ears or something's too much. But in those days, I mean, as in the forward, I used to think

they had to commit grievous bodily harm to get a yellow card, the defenders. But so it wasn't that common. I mean, people like, you know, remember Alan Smith had played at Lister and then Arsenal and played for England.

I think he only had one. In fact, I played in the game he had it. And he denies this, but I know it's true. Because the referee came over and he went to his pocket. He went in his bromicons, you know, give me a yellow card? Do you not know my disciplinary record? And I thought, no, and he got one. What was the closest you got?

The closest I got was in Spain. That was a miracle. Surviving three years in Spain without a yellow card was staggering. The closest I got was when he gave a decision against me. I just laughed. He went through his pocket I said, you're going to book me

for laughing. Well, you wouldn't get booked for that sometimes. Yeah, but I wasn't, you know, yeah,

I suppose, yeah. But are you generally very, very mild-mannered? Yes, yes. I don't really have

much of a temper. You're not? Not really. And was you always been mild-man you're mild-manned as a kid? Yeah,

I was really. I was like my mother, my dad, my dad had a real temper and my brother's got a real temper. But my mum was very calm, really calm all the time. Yeah.

And tell us a bit about her. You haven't heard much about her. My mom, she was born in Norfolk. She moved to Leicester when she was young. She was a hairdresser. I'm quite glamorous. And I mean, both my parents, I lost both of them about with four or five years ago. They actually got divorced when it was about 20, 21, which I found really hard.

But, yeah, I could see it coming. By the time you're in your early 20s, you were seriously famous, right? Yeah. Yeah. And presumably from when do people start recognizing you in the streets? Well, presumably in Leicester City, they were recognising you. Yeah, around the mid-20s, a little bit in Leicester. Then I went to Everton, started to scoring a lot of goals.

So I started to get well-known in England and play for the national team. But in term of real fame was after the Mexico 86 World Cup. Things changed dramatically. I remember arriving home and driving up back up north and stopped at the service station, and it was just swarms. And it was just incredible. How'd your parents respond to that? My parents, my mum always used, oh, it's great, you love you.

And my dad is kind of old school. He never give any of his emotions away. And I knew, I knew, and I knew he trusted me. He was the only person, I think, in the world that had a bet on me to win the golden boot in 1986. I think he got 16 to 1. So he won a few quick. But it was one of the most poignant things that ever happened in my life was when my dad was seriously ill at the end. He had long cancer.

He was a massive smoker. So it wasn't a huge surprise. He was late, kind of 78, 79. and then I was going up to Lester almost every day and lots of times to see him and for the first time in the life we really had proper conversations and I remember him

we were talking about football and I said you know my career's really surprised me and he went no he said he said what do you mean it's surprise I went well you couldn't have known that I was going to be he went I always knew I went

you could have told me and then one of our last conversations was really got me was he was really near the end and it was probably the last kind of compisementous conversation we had and as I left

he held my hand and he went I love you I'd never heard him say that really no they didn't that generation the stokes a little bit a bit soft that is

and I went I love you too dad and I went I got out and I was in a lift and I think it's on the seventh floor and it was just me in it

and I'm sobbing and I'm sobbing and it stopped the next floor and about six nurses walked in are you all right I mean, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

But, yeah. And did you enjoy the fame? Do you have a sense of it? I've always enjoyed the fame, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah. There are downsides, but, you know, yeah, people are lovely. And that's the thing. I know it's a little bit difficult,

and you can get, I think you can misunderstand things because of Twitter or social media where people have a go at you, but it's a very tiny percentage. And they're the ones that shout the loudest, I think, so you perhaps notice them. But by and large, people are lovely. And you were one of the first, English players to go abroad and be successful.

And one of the first as well to bother to learn the language. Well, when I went now, I never... This is bustling. When I went there, I kind of looked at the players that have been successful and English players that had gone abroad. And the ones that had done well, kind of the ones that immerse themselves in the culture, learn the language, people like Ray Wilkins, and people like Trevor Francis, and people like Kevin Kemp.

Keegan, Tony Woodcock. They'd all done, you know, very successful abroad. But they'd all learned the language. And I thought that it's got to be important. So as soon as I got there, I started having lessons three days, three days a week for two years. We had lessons with Michelle, and it really helped. Because, you know, you're in the dressing room, you can, you can chat, you can get the banter, you can have some fun. And in those days, were most of the players Spanish? Well, most of the players? Yeah, in those days, they were only allowed two foreign players. goodness. So it was very different.

But the manager was English. The manager, Terry Venables was the manager. He was English. Obviously the Spanish players, I mean, we spoke Spanish. And Terry Venables spoke, Spanish was really good. But he'd still use a lot of English and adjectives and stuff like that. So we played, England played against Spain in the Bernabar in Rail Madrid, my Real Madrid's ground.

And we had to meet up on the Monday, but Bobby Robson said to me, there's no point you're coming back to London flying out. with us. Why don't you fly from Barcelona to round Madrid? So I said, yeah, okay, I'll do that. So we flew out on the plane and I was like with six of my teammates and they were all giving it, oh, you're going to give you a good

kick in and all this sort of usual stuff. Sorry, the game happens and I managed to score four goals and we beat them four too, England. So it's great. And at the end of the game, at the end of the game, the goalkeeper that I scored four against

was And Donnie Zubrethareta. And he was a great goalkeeper and a wonderful lad. And I don't know where he picked this up, but he came into the dressing room at the end of the game, into our dressing room, walked over, shot me by the end. He went, in a perfect cockney accent, he went, facking hell. And, yeah, I think it might have been from one of Terry Venables.

Yeah, Charlie, Terry. And you mentioned Bobby Robson there? Bobby Robson, your manager. Yeah. I wish he was here to tour and leading. He'd have been brilliant. Oh, yeah. He would have been amazing.

But tell us a bit about Bobby Robson and especially that. Because another iconic moment in your career was that, and you didn't know, because you didn't know what the camera angle would be. But when Gaza realizes that if you get through to the final, he's not going to be there because he just picked up the card. This is 1990 against Germany. 1990, yep. Yeah, he's doing well.

He's doing well. Another tick. Yeah, it was. And there's you looking over to the bench saying, keep an eye on. What do you mean by that? Well, obviously because he got the yellow card, it was quite obvious that he was going to have to, you know, it would miss the final

if we got through to the final. And we got, we managed to, it was one one in normal time. Um, and that when he got the yellow card, I was really close. And it was also really close to the bench,

like 10 yards from the side of the pitch. I was really in close proximity. And he, he did the fan. And as soon as the referee brandished the card, we all knew. Of course we knew. That he was out of the final because he got two yellow cards.

Yeah. So I was still with Gaza and then he's, his bottom lip started to, go and there's a tear in his eyes. So I'm thinking I'm citing, the selfish reasons in many ways, I'm thinking, we need him, you know, and he's gone here. He's like, so I'm,

so I look at the bench and Bobby Robson's like there. So I've just gone, like, pointed to my temple or sorry, you know, have a word with him or keep an eye on him, whatever I said. And obviously not knowing that it would be, it would become this event. I get asked about probably as much as anything else

other than what my favourite flavour of Christmas, but But Gazer actually rallied in the second half and sorry, an extra time, and played really well. But, and then we had the penalty shoot. I have to tell you this. So we're in the centre. You know, these penalty shoes out, it's horrible.

You have to wait about 10 minutes. And I was taking the first penalty. And Bobby Rosson gathered us around, the four of us that volunteered and Chris Waddle. Was there only four? Gas was going to take one. But he wasn't, he didn't feel. He volunteered before?

Oh, kind of. Yeah, volunteered before, but then you get substitutions, but then also you have to volunteer again. Yeah. But there are only four. And so we were there, the five of us. And Bobby Robson goes in the middle, and he went, lads, don't let me down.

There are 30 million people watching this back home. So Peter Beersley myself, we burst out laughing and said, oh, cheers. That's not the best team talk, is it? I mean, it was funny. I was funny. They didn't mean it, but it didn't work. No, alas. Give us a sense of Spain and what you saw to Spain and how the culture differed.

And had you been, had you lived abroad before? I'd never, I'd never even contemplated living abroad before. It kind of came out of the blue. Everton called me one day, said we've accepted an offer from Barcelona. And in those days, you didn't have much choice about it? I didn't have to go. But when a club tells you that, and I kind of tell the Everton fans that sometimes, oh, you shouldn't, well, you left us.

And I got stick for ages. And in fact, one of the plusses for social media gave me the chance to actually explain that wasn't quite like that. I mean, in an ideal world, I'd have stayed another couple of years at Everton because it was such a good team. There's a best team I ever played for. They were so good.

We'd have won loads of titles. I won nothing when I was there. But it was only one year. So, in fact, the way we decided whether to go, and Michelle, they went, I said, well, that kind of agreed a fee to Barcelona. It's like one of the biggest clubs in the world. It's a huge opportunity, but I'm quite happy at Everton.

I don't know what to do. And she's what we were discussing? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? I don't know. Should we go? You go. And in the end, we decided it.

We go through a piece of paper, and we decided that we'd write yes or no on the piece of paper, and put it in a thing. And then we'd open them both up. Well, what happens if one was yes and one was there? It's a good question that will never need to be answered, because they both said yes. But yeah, I don't know.

I suppose I'd have said, is that you saying yes or me saying yes? It's not exactly sort of high-level data and analytics. Not really, was it? No, it's true. So you're arriving at Spain, and we were aware of Catalonia and the 10, interesting the I didn't know

the history you learn it very quickly you know obviously it was not that long really after

Franco's and there was very much that feeling they used to talk to me that you know they

that the thing called Los Coulas and Mescan club is Barcelona which is more than

more than a football club and they they say that because during Franco you know

the only place they could really speak their language they felt was inside the new camp so therefore

Barcelona's team became kind of this really important thing against Franco, Spain, which was seen as Rail Madrid. So that's where this classical real rivalry comes from. It's kind of more than a football match, more than a club. So is there a sense in which that experience politicised, did you think?

I think that's the kind of an age that started. I was always interesting politics. My dad was, my dad was a real Thachirai. I was a real Tory. So you kind of influenced that way. And how did he think about it? He's a small businessman. It's a small businessman, you know.

And that was the thing. And you mentioned Michelle a couple of times, who you married. Yep. And I guess another defining moment must have been when George, your son, became. Well, that's actually, I don't even remember. That's the first time I got to know you after school

was when because I was doing fundraising for leukemia research as was. But just tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, it was tough. It was our first child, George. He was about six weeks old. And he developed this, like, kind of bump on his head, like a spot, but it was hard. So I thought, this is odd. We'll get it checked.

So he took him to the doctor and the doctor said, oh, it looks like kind of some skin condition. I can't remember the name or ridiculously long word. And he said, we'll take a tiny biopsy and we'll get back to you in about 10 days. And then within those 10 days, he started developing more of these bumps. And then they were on the top of his head everywhere. And he was pretty bold as a baby. And they were quite hard. He was the head was like a golf ball.

It's really weird. And we went back and we saw these, there were two. doctors there waiting and we walked in. And is this in Spain or? No, this is after. We didn't have kids until I was back at Tottenham. So it was in George was born in 91. So it's

the end of 91 because it was just a few weeks later. So we went back to see the doctors and they said, well, it's coming back as this skin condition we thought it might be. So I thought, oh, that's what a relief. So I started to worry. And I said, well, just one thing. I said, I know you say that.

I said, but also I said in in the last 10 days, he really seems to be unwell and he's been groaning and he's had way more of these things on his head. And they went, oh, really? And I went, yeah, his clans seemed to be up. So they took his outfit off, took his nappy off. And then I'll never forget it. They just looked at each other. Two of them, they went, I'm really sorry, this is something much more important than that, much more serious. And I went, what do you mean? They went, oh, we need to do blood tests. We need to checked first, but this does look like leukemia. And that was a word that was like, I knew, I knew it's just some kind of blood cancer.

I didn't know much about it. And it was like, oh, and within half an hour on our way to Great Ormond Street. And then we're kind of within there for seven months. And two or three times they told us it's very unlikely to make it through the night. But somehow he did. And it was, you know, Michelle was there for seven months by, you know, in a bed by his side. There's only one small bed. So I just went home.

I didn't play for about three weeks, and then I went back to football training, and then I started playing, which was actually the best thing because it was the only time I could switch off from it. But he got into remission, he got the all clear, and then you go home and you just hope it doesn't come back. And he's now 31. And does he remember any of this? No, nothing. He was a small baby, nothing. He now does quite a lot for the chemo charities and stuff like that. What were the media like at that time?

I can remember it being a big story. Oh, it was incredible. I mean, a great answer to the first night, I went home. Michelle stayed with him. It was about three in the morning. I came home. I told the club, Terry Venable said, I'll come and pick you up in the morning and I'll tell you to the hospital.

He was brilliant. And when he did, he picked me up and I came out of my house and there must have been. It was like last week or two ago. I was about 50 journalists out there and cameras and stuff. So somehow things leak. And they were outside the hospital. every time I came out and every time I went in and every time I came out it was difficult. The response from the public was extraordinary.

I used to get like a huge bin bag that used to have been full of letters every week. We'd come into the hospital and it took me two years to reply to them, but I thought I should because it was so moving what they, you know, the amount of support that we had. But it's interesting because I always think about, we've talked before about this whole thing about footballers have got to be role models and which I don't buy at all because I mean, you young men who, because you're going to football, become very, very famous and very well-known. Suddenly, something happens in your private life,

and you consider it an absolute fair game. I sort of understand it, though. With matters of massive interest, with fame, it's part of it. It didn't bother me that much. You know? No, because, you know, I was playing for England at the time. You know, I played in World Cups. I understand the public interest.

And they were, you know, they were all kind. It wasn't like anyone was nasty. They were just doing their jobs. So I didn't mind that too much. The role model thing with young footballers, you know, some will choose to use it. Some will choose not to. I think I've been really proud of some of our young footballers

in recent years, you know, over the pandemic with captains getting together, raising money for, you know, the NHS, with Marcus Rashford. He shouldn't have had to do what he did, but he did and he did it wonderfully, it turned government policy. So, you know, with racism issues, you know, the likes of Rahim Sterling and many others,

I think they've done themselves proud. And sometimes you forget how young they are. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the way they do their post-match interviews, how multilingual a lot of them are, particularly, obviously the players from abroad when they come here. So I'm proud of my sport and proud of the young footballers particularly. Gary, I mean, in some ways you were, I mean, you worked unbelievably hard, but you were also on the fortunate end of things.

As you say, you continue to perform better than you were expecting to. Your father believed in you, but you maybe didn't think that when you were 14, 15, you were going to become one of the most famous footballs in the world. So how about young men who dedicate themselves to this and don't quite make it? And the reason I'm thinking about this, I did a bit of work with David Dean around prisons and with Ashton Venger. And I remember Aspenger saying that he was very, very, very. concerned about young French players who put so much heart and soul into making it, didn't quite

quite happen. And he pointed out that actually some of the terrorist attacks in France had been conducted by young men who'd been almost made it as professional football. Oh, really? Yeah. And he really believes that, you know, we need to rethink the whole Youth Academy stuff and keep people in school longer so they have alternatives. I think he's right. They have changed a lot, the academies now. They do offer education well into late teens for young footballers. So, you know, even if you go and you think you've got a chance, they carry on that education within the academy.

But, I mean, it's brutal. I mean, nearly every young kid now, not just boys, but girls now as well, want to be professional footballers and there are so few spaces. I mean, one of my boys played at Chelsea's Academy for a few years. I used to go on there and look around the pitches. Every age group, there must have been hundreds and hundreds of kids there. And you know, out of all those hundreds, couple might get to the top.

Couple might get a lower league career somewhere and the rest won't, but they all think they're going to make it, so it's so hard. How did you work that through with your son? I think with my children, I think it's important to know that they, you know, they're very fortunate,

run a good position. You know, if he's not going to be a football, they'd kind of be probably all right in life because his dad's done okay. I think it's more for those that the dream is to get out of somewhere out of poverty, out of what, and the reliance and the parents get keen, and they think they're going to go

and then the disappointment happens. So I think for my boys, it was fine. I don't, I just conversations with them. I usually say to them, it's really, really difficult. Just play and enjoy it. That's all that matters. You'll reach your level.

You'll reach the level that you go, as long as you try hard, as long as you have fun, and you'll reach your level. And I would say that to any parent, don't get ahead of yourself. Don't get ahead of yourself. It's so hard, so competitive.

And that's why people, when I hear fans and stuff talking or even people on radio callings and they, lambas players, he's useless, he's rubbish. And I just think, you have no idea how good you have to be, just to be a professional. You can see it in sports like golf, and I'm quite envious because we all know, like you can compare yourself to the same course.

You can see hit the same shots. Whereas in football, you tend to end up just playing at the level you play at. And one thing I would say to people and parents are the ones that are really critical of professional footballers. I said, hang on a minute, can you remember someone at school that used to think? He was unbelievable. But he never quite made it. He never, and I go, that's how hard it is.

Remember that. When you lambas these professional players, they are way better than you think. Even the Burnley ones. Oh, that is a low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low blow. Do you resent at all? the fact that, I mean, you've made a good living out of football, but in a way you've made a better living out of broadcasting. Yeah, well, but yeah.

So when you look at players, you look at players today, a lot of them, like even in way below the Premier League, will be earning sort of money you couldn't even dream of when you were a player. Yeah. Is that doesn't, no, I mean, I'm fine, I'm fine. Obviously, I've done really well. What I would have moan. But I would imagine there are a lot of players in my generation

who'd wish they'd been born 15, 20 years later. For listeners who don't fall in the whole time, it's gone from you earning. 300,000 pounds a year, to people earning 300,000 pounds a week, right? Absolutely right. I think I was one of the top players in the world when I was at Barcelona and a game

when I rejoined Tottenham. And so, but... And that was a few hundred thousand pounds a year. Just over about 330, I think it was something like that, which was, it felt like an enormous amount of money at the time. It is, obviously it is. And was. But, you know, the chart since the Premier League started,

has just gone, ooh, the graph has gone, escalated rapidly. And good luck to them. I mean, it's what it is. And, you know, you can't really control it because the best players will be sought after. You end up with, it's almost like an auction. How do you feel about the way that football clubs are now part of this kind of bigger

geo-strategic geopolitical stuff? Well, it worries me a little bit. Particularly, I have a real problem with state-owned football clubs, even if they're disguised, not as that. but I'm afraid that train has left the station and we're stuck with it so in some ways it's given us the biggest most professional

most exciting league in the world because of we're now attracting the big players from all over the world whereas we never really did that before the big players would always go and they still do to a degree go to Barcelona and Real Madrid or they used to go to Italy but nowadays of course most of them come here where even, you know, likes of Harlan, for example,

he would never have come to English football 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. His dad did. But his dad did, his dad wasn't anywhere near as he's good as his lad. So one of the things we talked about on the show before is German model, an idea of clubs which are mostly owned by the fans, where you have real control, you don't maybe have as much money. I mean, it's too late for us now.

I think it's too late for that. But I do admire the German model, and they kept their prices down. their ticket in, which I think we should do anyway. I mean, we get so much money from television and TV rights. You know, the important thing is to keep the grounds full, because the product, even on television, is nothing like as good if you don't. Alistair's told me a lot about his playing football with Maradogne.

That was a big, big moment in his life. What game was that, Alistair, exactly? It was the first soccer raid. Did you know what my team was, Gary? Go on then. Michael Ingo, Dunga, S-E, Matthias, me. Campbell. Maradonna.

Zola, Gironola. Give us a sense of Maradonna. It's very similar to when I watch Messi. They do things that, you know, I played obviously high level, and there are players way better than me, you know, like Lote,

unbelievable part Gaza and people with that kind of talent, Zico and Plotini and, you know, all these wonderfully wonderful players. But then above them, Zidane, all these people, but above them you've got Messi and Maradonna. who play a game that the rest of us are not familiar. They see things almost as though they're above themselves, watching down on themselves,

and they could get out of any situation, they could beat people, they could manipulate the ball like they were using the hand, and that's not meant as a pun for the hand of God. I did two documentaries. I did one where I was in his company for three days. It was the most extraordinary three days imaginable. His life was completely nuts.

Everywhere he got, there was huge entourage of people bowing, He was, I went three days in Buenos Aires, and it was nuts. I just think, no wonder he's mad. No wonder he's got that other side to him, and you can see it. What was he like? Give us a bit of a sense of his personality off the pitch. Lovely, lovely, really fun, engaging, sense of humour.

And you don't feel a huge sort of rage or a cent about that 86th moment. One or two of my teammates do, Peter Shilton, Terry Butcher, they'll never forgive him. and they say it to this day I was different he just did something and got away with it had been one of ours we'd have been

you know you'd have done the same wouldn't have ever thought to do the same and it was so almost brilliant the way he did just make his head

a little bit bigger wouldn't it but it wouldn't cross my mind otherwise I might punch the one in with five minutes to go near the end for the equalizer

but it's not something that he would ever think about doing but there's no question in my mind he must have done that once or twice before because it was so

But then, of course, after that, he scores the greatest goal of all time. You were sort of at the other end, weren't your goal hanging? I didn't see the hand of going. I couldn't see it. When he did score the second goal, I honestly felt like I ought to applaud. Really? Not that I would because he'd get hammered home. But it was that good.

And I just thought, oh my God, how did you? What have I just seen? It just ran straight line. On a pitch that was almost unplayable. It was like cabbage patch. Gary and Alastair, let's take a quick break. And we'll be back in a second. Hi, everybody.

It's Dominic Samerick here from The Rest is Hill. history. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Restis Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise. People are arguing about Europe. The government has got a few issues with the trade unions. And we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say

governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues. And people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be Looking at these and other issues, we'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour

Prime Minister Harold Wilson. And we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976, when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to The Restless Politics. Welcome back to the rest of leading with me, Rory Stewart. Me, Alastair, and our guest, Gary Lindica.

I last saw you in Qatar. You were pleasantly surprised. When I saw you, you were quite cheered up by the whole thing. You thought it was quite an enjoyable experience. You liked being able to get between the games. There were pros and cons to it, I felt. It didn't really surprise me. I knew the football would be good because the football is in a World Cup.

And some of the games were fantastic. The stadiums were beautiful, as you'd expect, when you spent 200-odd-billion. but it was kind of strange there was no kind of social there were a few restaurants that were kind of pop-ups really and they're all in a line

in the same place you know the usual suspects but you could get to a lot of matches that was the big bonus for us and that's a purely selfish thing because you could actually normally we'd park ourselves in a studio say Russia

for example in the middle of red square and have a nice view but watch a football match on the telly whereas there we actually went to every game that we covered. And that was a massive, that was a massive bonus. The crowds, it was a little bit surreal.

It wasn't kind of a normal football crowd, but there were positives to that as well. There was no trouble. There was no trouble. Very diverse. Lots of people I met from countries in Asia and various other spots. In North Africa, particularly, there was, so, you know, there were pros. So you were in sport, you're a footballer, and then you became a broadcaster. I've never really understood how a sportsman can take to broadcasting afterwards.

It always feels like such a second best to me. Well, you can't play any longer, and it's its second best, because it's second best. But what else can, you know, there's nothing that you can do that would be on the same level. But you'd accept that it is second best. Oh, yeah. I had this really interesting conversation with Michael Owen about the feeling of scoring a great goal. And he trains horses. And I said to him, is that, do you, is he, I mean, is it the same when your horse wins,

he went, it's still not the same. There's nothing that compares with scoring a big goal in a big game or winning a massive match. So a lot of players really, really struggle when they stop. Loads of players.

And obviously, you know, it's really, I've been lucky, I found something else I could do. But there are so many jobs in television. There are only so many managerial coaching roles. And after that, so many players have a difficult time.

You know, they're only so much now, if the top ones, if they're sensible enough, that might be okay. but you know what it's like, the more you earn, the more you spend generally. So, I don't know, this crazy statistic about footballers getting divorced. Oh, yeah, it's huge. From the age, I think, from 35 to 40s, like 70% addiction, all sorts of problems.

You know, the fame goes, the money stops. And did you never fancy being a coach or a manager? No. Because you just... Because I don't think I'd be very good at it. Why not? Because I'm not a leader, and I don't know why I'm on this show. Oh, shit.

You've got Jock Wallace in your head. You've got Jock Wallace in your head. You're not an angry Scott. No, no, I know. Oh, you've had lots of sense. No. But I just, I looked at TV. I was really into,

I used to write match reports when I was a kid. I used to go to the rest of that. Did you still? I just draw pictures of Charlie Hailey with his red and white stripes and stuff. Yeah, you're older than me. So I used to do that. And then they used to call me Junior Des in the England team, like after Deslin,

maybe because I was starting to show a bit of few grades. But I was interested. I used to sit with the, the journalist when they were writing them, actually put it to see how they did it. I used to stick by radio. I just thought to myself as well, if I want to go into football

because it was kind of just becoming a thing back then, TV. And I used to look at other sports. I used to think like Sue Barker and David Gow for example, they were presenters of their sports, cricket, tennis. And I thought, well, football's not really got that. Jimmy Hill did it occasionally and Bob Wilson did it.

So I thought, if I can correct the presenting side, it might give me some kind of longevity in the business. Yeah, well, it has. And it's so true to be. but it was hard at the time. What did you have to learn about it? What didn't come naturally? What was the studying?

I said I was born to be in the box, not on the box. You know, I'd done a lot. I did punditry for a start, which wasn't that difficult. I was just given my opinion when asked a question. Presenting a show is a whole different ballgame. What's the difference in the two? Because we're kind of pundits, aren't we? Well, you are, but you don't really have to.

This is not live, for example. So you don't, you've not got to, like, hit the end of the show and hit a countdown. have you've got to get into the next link whenever that is. So you've got to go from chat to actually then doing a link into like a feature or a link into the match. And all the time you've got to hit certain times, talking in your ear constant, not constantly, but sometimes, but you're hearing, I like open talkback because I like to know what's going on

everywhere. Some people just have Switch. The difference is switch is just the information you need to hear, but open talkback means everything. So I hear them talking to the camera. I hear them talking to. And I like that. And you can hear them talking.

down and share. I was getting these big ears for a reason. I can listen. I can listen and talk, but it took me eight. The first two years, I did football, when I started presenting, I did football focus. I used to drive home at lunchtime on a Saturday after the show. And so many times I thought, I'm never going to be able to do this.

But it wasn't quite bad enough for them to get rid of me. And then I became comfortable in the environment. I knew how it worked. And I knew how to look at a camera and I knew how to deliver a thing. And what about your little bomb-mo, your little sort of quips and all that? I'm through that, but that's fine. You know what, isn't it? No, you know what?

Mr. McGowan, right? He used to do a... I mean, Alice is the only one that does me. Really? But he does me... And he used to have a show that went out on a Saturday night just before match of the day, before the news, then the name was...

We used to watch it because that's that period when I wasn't... Where I'd be kind of spare time. And I used to watch him doing the show, he'd do all these mannerisms for, you know, this. And the little kind of half swallow he used to do. And I used to go on the show. And then I used to go on the show.

I think that's the thing that Alistair MacGaughan just did. I just actually did it. And I got so subconscious that I stopped watching his show before it was on. Because it was pouring me off. But I guess we should come to to where we've just been, as it were,

with the little recent controversy. The elephant in the room. No, it's not the elephant in the room at all. No. But it's interesting how that, what that said about, well, first of all, give us your take on why you think it became

such a big thing. I'm still bewildered. You still find it a bit odd. I thought it was so disproportionate. What was your experience of it? Talk us through how it happened. Well, there was the policy, which I kind of, when they spelled it out, I thought, oh, can't, you can't send people to a country perhaps where they don't want to go.

That seems. And I thought, I don't think this is going to work. Is it even going to be legal? Obviously, we all recognize as a massive problem. But, you know, it's going to get worse as well with climate change and stuff like that. And people fleeing their countries. And I just thought, come on. And then somebody replied, it was quite an aggressive response.

And what I did was reply to them. And at the end of it, I added the line, some of the language used is not dissimilar to that used in the early 30s in Germany, which was never meant as any kind of comparison with the Holocaust or anything like that. This was a reply on Twitter. It was just a reply. You're getting in a debate with someone on Twitter. You're basically facing one.

I never do either. Right. But I only saw it because someone else that I follow reply. to it, so therefore I saw it. And I, for some reason, I responded. You replied, and then presumably lots of likes and retweets began to people. I began to get it noticed, but I went to bed. I didn't know what was going on.

And I woke up the following morning. And you know, like, when you wake up, I don't look at my phone until I've had a coffee because I don't function until I've had a coffee at mine. So I came down in the kitchen, and I had my, sit drinking my coffee, put my phone on. You know, like in the morning, I don't know about you, but I get, you know, like five WhatsApp messages or sometimes if the boys are chatting amongst themselves in our group chatting might go up to

20, 30 maybe. So I wake up in the morning, look to my phone, it's got 237 WhatsApp messages. I've gone, oh my God, what's happened? And I've really, I'd really worried thoughts for a few seconds. I thought, because I couldn't think of what it could possibly be. And I thought, it's either some kind of scandal or something happened to one of my kids. And I remember, and I opened it,

and the first message I saw was somebody showing me the Daily Mail's front page, which obviously caused all this Ferrari, linking me to the Nazis. And I just went, oh, thank God for that. That's all it is. That's all it is. I don't mind that. It didn't bother me.

I was okay. And it just, it kind of just spiraled kind of sillily out of control. But it was obviously speaking to something that's going on. This is why I sort of weighed in, because I think it was speaking to something really odd, which is that the right, go on the whole time about free speech,

but it has to be the speech that they want. heard. Well, that's, that was kind of my first thing, was really, hang on a minute. Hang on, this is, you know, I've not, I've not been abusive to anyone. I've not, you know, I've not, said anything particularly controversial. I think it was factual. I think, I, you know, I'm not saying at all that policies echo those of Germany or anything like that, but sometimes, which I said sometimes, some of the language is not dissimilar. We use the words like, you know, invasion and swarms and criminals and rapists and all these things. And that could lead to something.

It might not lead to something. But I've been an advocate of, you know, I've done a lot with charities and stuff and with the refugee crisis for a long time. And it's kind of more, and when I met Tim Davy, when he first brought in his guidelines things, we had a discussion.

And I said to Tim, there are two things that I will continue to talk up on. I will not back down on. And he agreed. One of them was about the refugee crisis and the other one was about climate change. So I, for me, this, I put this in that category.

Now, obviously, all these things will be linked to politics. Pretty much everything is. It's like when people say, sport, politics shouldn't mix. They always mix. You can't, they can't not do. So all my argument here was that let's have some empathy towards these poor people that are forced to flee persecution and war. Do you think if it happened here, for example,

if we suddenly, for some inexplicable reason, we were attacked and we had to flee somewhere, at least show some empathy, some kind words, even if we obviously can't have everyone here. We all know that. I like your idea. I've heard many times on here where it's, you know, towns have a percentage.

And we could do that. Just have a fair share. I don't have a good at Alastron, essentially, because he's going around wearing t-shirt saying open borders at the moment. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. What did it say that? My t-shirt, you're lying.

You see, that's a difficult choice. It's just borders. It's people not boats. I think it's an important point because there is a part of the left that very, very, very, unrealistically genuinely believes in open borders. There's a big movement and it may not be something that you believe. No, I don't at all. I think what happened here is because of the Daily Mail Front page, which was nothing like what I said, he was saying we're, you know, comparing our policy to that of the Nazis, that was not the case. It was not the case.

I was just talking about some of the language. you know, would I do it differently now, probably, after the floor of these calls? But I stick by those words, and I think it's true and factual. So I don't think that impartiality comes into it. It's post-truth. Because basically, you say something, and then they say you've said, Suezada Brabler was a Nazi, which you never said. They've got massive to say that of all proportion.

It is something, though, that's really weird about newspapers. And whenever I got caught up in a political thing, a terrible thing to say. But in 2010, I said some parts of nonpart of my constituency, pretty primitive, right? In the mirror, ran a headline, Tory MP calls his constituents primitive.

When something like this happens, and I totally sympathise with that, because these things happen all the time. And even to people that write the pieces, sometimes the headline bears, it's a totally different thing to watch the story of the town itself. But it's like,

but people only see the headline. And that's all they see in the supermarkets when they go and see all the paper. Oh, look at that. Oh, blimey. Did it cross your mind when you did the reply to the guy that did you think,

I wonder if this is within the guidelines, or was it never in doubt for you? No, it was never contemplated it would be an issue at all. So then you got the question about how the BBC got itself into a state where it became like a full-blown crisis for a couple of days?

Yeah, that would be silly, but he shouldn't have been. And I'm a massive, you know, I love the BBC, I've been there for nearly 30 years. But people, you know, people make mistakes, but they recognise that

and they addressed it. And in the end, thankfully, you know, back to work. It was amazing, wasn't it? I mean, the outpouring of support was unbelievable. It really was. And Alice was very active in this too.

But one of the things that you pointed out in terms of crisis management is knowing how it's going to end. And what became clear as everybody began boycotting match the day and nothing was going on that this was not going to end well. My teammates, it was funny. I was in a restaurant and then in the back of the car. And firstly, when Ian Wright pulled out of the show. and then when Alan did as well

and Shira, I must admit, I had a tear in my eye. Did they not tell you they were going to do it? Ian Wright, when it first happened, said, why is this an issue? If they do anything, I'm, you know, I'm not going on. You know, it's one thing saying that in a moment,

but then actually to carry that through, they didn't need to do that. And then Alex Scott and then Jermaine Junis and Micah and then all the commentators and then the match reporters and then even the footballer said they weren't going to do any. And it was like, my goodness, this is, this is kind of not doing it.

I think they're doing it more for the cause, but they actually, you know, to get that kind of team spirit, that kind of camaraderie and togetherness, I mean, it just moved me. It was just, it was beautiful. Can I play my, my classic role as the, as the kind of, I've been waiting for it. Sudotory. So, and I'd love to, I'd love to get you thinking a little bit off your own. case. Let's not get caught up in a case, onto the issue of impartiality. So this was a quote from Chris Bryant, the Ronda MP, when a BBC presenter, Win Evans hosted a Tory event. He said, it's really simple. He's paid for by the license fee, public service broadcaster. He should keep

his political views to himself. Otherwise, he should be sacked or resign. He's a regular presenter on the BBC Wales show, it's absolutely basic. What do you think about that? Yeah, but what does he do? What does he do? I don't know what he does. If his news and current affairs, I think that's, and they're a member of staff at the BBC.

Absolutely. If you're a freelance guy like me that works on football, so let's move. I don't believe, but at the moment, let's move off you there. Yeah. And back to the basic issue of impartial. It's really difficult.

I think for me, what they have to think about, first and foremost, before you talk about anybody else's impartial. The government of the day, whoever that is, whether it's Tory or Labour, cannot decide who the chairman of the BBC is. Oh, totally. Or I have any kind of influence on who they put in to be director of news

or anything else. That, for me, is where it needs to start. So otherwise, it's really difficult. Are you, have you ever thought about tweeting something or saying something in public and then not done it? Yes, because you've thought. Lots of times. Go on then.

I have three rules. Go on. One, I don't tweet when I've, I've had a drink. I don't tweet when I'm angry, but I'm very, very rarely angry anyway. And the third one is, every tweet that I do, I read it to myself back. And if I have 1% doubt, I don't send it. Right. Which happens quite a lot. And sometimes they're really good jokes that annoys me. Or I think they're really good jokes. No one else does. So, and if you thought about, you know, because the other thing that it's done is because

it's been such a big controversy is that you've, you've now got a strong political voice if you want to. if I want to. And that's the thing. I'm not, I mean, I'm really interested in politics. This is one of my favorite. This is my favorite podcast. It all goes back to the school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Grammar school, you insist. He keeps insisting it's a comprehensive. It was comprehensive. It's a comprehensive. There we go. You see? I can't believe in what he says. It's because I went midterm.

I went from, I went from Bradford grammar school. Yeah. Oh, the truth is out. Can I tell you how I know? Let me tell you how I know. because it's a crazy story really. Because I lived in a place called Braunston,

or next to it, Browningfields, until I was 10. And then we moved, but I'd just take the 11 plus. I passed the 11 plus, but we moved into the county. We're slightly out Kirby Muxlow. So there was only one choice of school for me to go to under those circumstances because it was in the county,

but it was a non-football playing school. My dad said, I cannot do that to you. It's a rugby playing school. So he said, right, we'll move back into the city. We were in that house for one year. And for six months, I went to live with my grandparents because they lived in the city so that I could go to the school that plays football.

So I went through my entire senior school career. It wasn't the grammar school. It was one of the first wave of comprehensives under Shirley Williams. They were. It was a grammar school. It was a grammar school. Actually, I do know. It was definitely.

It changed. It changed later. Yeah. Listen, just back finally to the politics, what's the most political thing you're going to say between now and a general election? I won't get involved. I've never said who I vote for ever. I've voted for lots of different parties at different points for different reasons. I'm kind of your archetypal floating vote, to be honest.

I'm not kind of tribal in that sense. You did a famous centrist tweet, didn't you? I'm sent it forward. Yeah, sent it forward all my life. And, you know, from, you know, people say, oh, you're the lefties and all. all this. I'm not particularly a lefty. I'm certainly not from the right. I think I probably drift from centre to left, a little bit of centre. Good. Well, thank you for having us in your lovely home. Thank you for being so open and frank. And thank you for helping Rory learn a bit more

about football. Thank you. And thank you above all for the amazing newsworthy revelation that Alsa Campbell went to a grammar school. There you go. Jackpot. That was fascinating. Have you known him for a long time. Well, I knew it was school, but didn't know, as it were, knew of him, then got to know him a bit through leukemia research, because my best friend died of leukemia and his daughter died of leukemia. And then more, we didn't, we didn't talk, I forgot about the, we did once have a bit of a barney on a golf course. I don't play golf anymore, but I was on a golf course playing golf with Jamie Rednapp, let's stick with the football. And it was during one of the World Cups when being a sort of bit of a rabid Scotland.

fan and Scotland, needless to say, weren't there. And I wrote a piece of the Times about how I could stand the BBC's coverage of the World Cup because it was so anglo-phobic, anglo-centric and all about England. And it wasn't that bad a piece, but anyway, Gary was really pissed off with it and he let it be known. I don't know, really. Just so I've got to know him more recently. And then, of course, during the People's Vote campaign.

But I do think he's an amazing blow. because he was, you know, joking about your football non-knowledge aside, he was a really, really, really good footballer. And the reason why our podcast is produced by a company called Goal Hangar is that is kind of, he was the tap-in king. But he was the reason he got all those goals out is because he was just always in the right place. And it was also, I do think the red, I think he was playing down the red card, yellow card thing.

I think he's got that sort of very calm equilibrium about him that even those high pressure moments, he didn't lose it. And do you, I mean, do you, because you adore football, was there a time in your life when you're a bit starstruck when you met great footballers who you'd seen on television? Oh, when I was a kid, yeah. No, the only time I've genuinely been starstruck by a football was Maradonna. And because he became my best mate within a week, it was quite quickly. I think when you're in the presence of people that you think a genius, it's always, that you think. Yeah. But no, and Gary was, you know, but Gary was a really, really, really good football. I also do think, this is why the BBC were daff. to sort of get into the mess over it than he did. I do think he's a brilliant broadcaster, which very few sports people are.

And that's partly because he's quite funny, isn't he? As you say, he's good at the quips. He's good at one-liner. Presents very well. Self-deprecating. Self-deprecating, yeah. It's that good grammar school education, isn't it? Set him up well.

Well, Rory, I'm going to check this. Because, I mean, honestly, I just can't get this. Maybe, because I went there in the middle of the term. So because you already passed the 11 plus for the Bradford Grammar School, they let you end? Isn't that the 11 plus? I think it might be worse. that, Rory. I think you might have been a specific grammar school, Bradford Grammar School entrance.

I didn't realize that as a kid you'd walk around all the time at school with the Burnley scarf. Were you kind of slightly weird kid? No, I think it was weird. I was very, I think my obsession with Burnley was partly born in Leicester because I, as a kid, as a young child, I used to go to home games. I never even thought of going to an away game. And then because of this accident to my dad and we got moved to Lester, I just, the need to keep going back. I think it was just feeling I was. wrenched out of where I was really from. And so I literally never ever took the burn...

Apart from P.E., I never took my burnless scarf. You're sort of symbolising to everyone in Lester that you just didn't belong. You didn't want to be there. I didn't belong. And I'm never going to be there. And we had a school uniform that was sort of dark blazer. I wore a blue an rack and a burnly scarf all the time. And I remember once in a heat wave sitting in a German lesson with Mr. Webster.

And he was always saying, can't you take your coat off? Can't you take your scarlet? No, I'm not taking off ever. You were a bit of a weird kid, right? No, I was determined not to take my burly scarf. I was determined to, but they knew I do not come from here. I come from somewhere else. I'm happy to be with you, but I'm not taking my scarf off.

But I remember sitting there, and it was an absolute heat wave. It was one of the hottest summers ever, and I wouldn't take it off. I think on that heroic note, we should end up pod. Thank you very much. Thank you.