The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 121. Yulia Navalnaya: The Woman Who Could Bring Down Putin

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Why did Yulia’s husband, Alexei Navalny, return to Russia, knowing he’d be imprisoned? Is there any credible opposition to Putin left? What does the West get wrong about Putin’s Russia?  TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [e-mail] Video Editor: Josh Smith  Assistant Producer: Alice Horrell Social Producer: Jess Kidson Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the restispoletics.com. Hello and welcome to Restless Politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. And today we're joined by Yulia Navalnyer, and she has become a very prominent figure following the death of her husband. Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. And Alexei Navalny has had an extraordinary life which ended in a penal colony in which he died in very mysterious circumstances, as far as his family's concerned, murdered by Vladimir Putin, and certainly having been the victim of a Russian chemical attack on a plane earlier, which he barely recovered from in a hospital in Germany.

Just a quick introduction to who Alexei Navalny was to remind people. He was born in Soviet era Russia to a father of Ukrainian descent, trained as a lawyer, entered politics in the early 2000s with something called the Yabloko Party, then became very well known for anti-corruption work. So he established an anti-corruption foundation in 2011. And one of the things he was very, very quick to do was to use social media. So he put out some of the very earliest stuff showing Putin spending hundreds of millions on building a power. He drew attention to the fact that Putin was wearing watches worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. He exposed oligarchy and essentially created the first real portrait of a Putin gangster state. Very, very dangerous. He courted controversy, so some of his critics accused him of having Russian nationalist views, which he later moved away from and very much embraced democracy. He had a connection to Yale University, where he had a connection to Yale University, where he had

he studied as a young global leader and began to study social media and organizing. 2020, as I said, he was poisoned by Novichok by the Russian intelligence services on a flight, returned to Russia in 2021, where he was immediately arrested and given a nine-year prison sentence. He was sent to a series of penal colonies, finally won up in the Arctic Circle, and died in February 2024. Over to you, Alistair. Essentially, Julian Novel Nye is now carrying on his fight. She was an assistant for much of this time. She was a colleague as well as a wife.

I met the daughter Dasher in Oslo a few months ago, incredibly impressive young woman. She too is trying to carry on her father's name and the fight against Russia. So lots to talk about. And I think important to remember, right, in fact, she'll emphasise right from the start that he didn't die, he was murdered.

That is a very, very important. part of their fight. And they've also produced this book called Patriot, which I think is going to be an important part of their fight going forward. So I don't know where she was when we interviewed her. They keep her movements pretty quiet for fairly obvious reasons. But I was in France and Rory was in Switzerland. And here you go. Meet Yulia Navalnya. Welcome to the rest of politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. And we're absolutely thrilled to have Yulia Navalnaier, who is probably, more well known than she wants to be, if I can put it like that. She's well known because

her husband, Alexei Navalny, was one of the foremost critics of Vladimir Putin. He is now dead for his troubles. But Yulia and also her daughter, Dasha, who I met in Oslo recently, are keeping up the fight. They met, she and Alexei met on a bus in Turkey when they were both in their early 20s, and they've been on quite a journey ever since. So Yulia, Thank you very, very much for your time. It's lovely to see you. Thank you very much, Alistair, and it's a great pleasure to be on your podcast. I should be honest.

I have some friends in Great Britain, and so before you suggested me to join you, they told me many of them that they hear your podcast and it's the best political podcasts in Great Britain. so I'm very thrilled, but from the other side, I'm very scared. But still, it's a great honor to join you. There is just small remark. You said that my husband was dead, but I would say he was killed by Vladimir Putin, and I will continue to repeat it. It's very important to know that Vladimir Putin is not just dictator. He is a mafia boss, his mother, he is a war crime,

and it's very important to remember about this. Thank you. Thank you. Julia, tell us a little bit about yourself and your childhood and where you grew up and what your parents did and how you formed as a character. Wow, we started from such a long, long time, back things. Well, I was born in Moscow. I spent all my life in Moscow. I never thought that I will change the country. country of living. I wanted to live in my own country. I love my country like my husband very

much. I was born in a very simple Soviet family. I graduated from a university where I studied international relations. I worked a little being in a bank sphere, but then very soon after that, I married to my husband. He started to work in politics. And we, just realized that because of searches, because of the all political pressure, which we got very, very quickly. And many years ago, I cared about family more and I was very happy to help my husband to be very confident in it. I hope that he knew that he had a strong back. And I was trying not to be, you know, just think about family. Of course, it was my priority.

It's still my priority, especially now after Alex's murder. But still, of course, it was all the time, like, sharing the views, understanding that it's very important everything, what my husband had been doing for a long, long time. When you were growing up, were you somebody who had strong political views? You know, me and Alexei, we grow up in Soviet Union. Our childhood was in Soviet Union. But our formation, as I can call it, when we were teenagers, so Soviet Union fallen.

So we are children of perestroika, I could say. And Alexei and me, we have very simple families, normal families, but families who were very involved in politics because they were years. when everybody was involved in politics in Russia, but there were like a few years, unfortunately. Yulip, what did your mother do? What did your father do? What were their jobs? When were they born? Where did they come from? My mom is engineer. She was born in Moscow. My father was born in Moscow as well. He's engineer as well, too. My father died when I was 18, and my mom, she still lives in Moscow. When I met Dasha in Oslo, she was telling me that Alexi's parents still live in Russia.

There are. Both of our and mine and Alexi parents, they are still in Russia. That's right. How do they feel when they know that the regime murdered their son? They still have to live there. They still presumably have friends there. I presume that your mother now probably is quite worried about you. I just wanted how your family deal with living in Russia.

Well, it's better to ask them, but of course you're right. But I don't think it's about living in Russia because Russia is their home country. It's about terrible situation and terrible tragedy which happened in their life. But they're old people. They spent all their life in Russia. They don't want to change country. My mom still works. and I think that it keeps her to be strong.

She has a lot of friends, and to live country now, I don't think it's a choice for her. And for Alexei's parents, I think that the same, but also, of course, it's very important for them to be close to Lexi, to the cemetery, and, of course, for old people, it means a lot. Tell us a little bit about the beginning of Alexei, says political life. Tell please the listeners a little bit about how he started, what he got involved in, why he got involved. He was all the time involved in politics a lot and when we met,

we discussed politics a lot. I think it was one of the reasons why he married, because it was interesting for him to discuss politics with close friends and then girlfriend and then wife. And I interested in politics in all my life as well. And when Vladimir Putin became a president the first time, he just came to me one day, said, like, you know, I really probably remember this moment. Like, you know, I decided to go to be more involved in politics, like not kitchen talks, but to participate to one of the, at that time.

pro-democratic parties and I want to do something because I'm against this regime from the first step. I'm against Putin and it's very important for me to do this. Was there ever a time when you or he thought that Putin might be moving

in a democratic direction or did he decide very, very early on that he was as bad as he became? It's a very good question because a lot of people People were very exciting when Putin became the president or I would say even in power like Prime Minister the first time. Because comparing to Yeltsin, who still we should agree broad democracy, but after that

there were some problems with him, but still Putin was very young, very active, very enthusiastic and people who were less involved in politics and just seeing this young, strong, of strength men and they were hoping that it would change a lot. But it wasn't with us like this because of course as people who were a little bit more involved in politics, we knew that everybody knew, but still Putin is KGB officer and all these structure, which was in Soviet Union. It was obvious that he is going to bring it back to Russia. So no, we never thought in our family, we never thought that there could be any positive changes after Putin became a president. What sort of ruler is Vladimir Putin? Is he modeling himself on a traditional communist leader like Stalin or on a czar or on a mafia boss?

I mean, how would you describe the style of leadership? Well, let's be honest, I've never seen Vladimir Putin. Probably it's for the best. But from my point of view, nobody wants to be called a mafia boss. Of course, he wants to be a leader of country. He behaves now like Tsar. Of course, it's obvious that he takes a lot of decisions just by him on. And it's, you know, like this, probably he is asking,

for some kind of advice, but people around him just want to be on the same side and to show him their full loyalty. That's why, you know, everything, what he is asking for, they're doing, he wants to be a kind of, really like, one leader of the country. It's obvious that he understands that he's just one person, and I believe that he believes in it, that he's just one person who can bring Russia to beautiful future. And of course, it's very dangerous and it's very awful because when the one person stays in power more than 25 years, by the way, could you mention, of course you believe in everything you do. Of course you understand your position like the ones, we can call it whatever, leader, sir, president, but you just understand that you are

able to do whatever you want, to stay in power, to keep your power. When did you first fear that Alexei's political activity might actually lead to him being such a target that the regime would murder him? When did that first cross your mind he was swimming in very dangerous waters. You know, as we started our conversation from our young years, I would say I almost never thought about or had any fear, because we grow up together. It's not just about our age.

It's about Alexis political growing. That's why I seen it, not like, you know, it became suddenly. I've seen it from day to day. Like he became popular blogger. Like he became the blogger who has supporters. Like he became the person who established small NGO, anti-corruption NGO. Like he became candidate of mayor of Moscow. Like he became the person who established the biggest NGO,

anti-corruption NGO in Russia. like he started to have not like, you know, couple thousands of supporters, but a dozen of thousands, then hundreds of thousands, and then millions of people who were just following him. Like he became presidential candidate. It was like, you know, so step by step that at every point of time, I just had this feeling like, I understand that it could be, dangerous, but I knew that it's Alex's life, that he was really person who really believed in

everything who was doing. That's why, you know, I just realized very quickly that it's very important to support him. He's doing the right things. He wants to make Russia a better place. He wants to do all the world the better place. That's why I just wanted to support. him and I almost never had any fears, probably once or twice, but it's not about arrests or searches. And what did you learn from how social media has changed the world? You talked about being a blogger, but now we're in a world of Facebook, of Twitter, of all these type of communications. How does this change the way that politics is done in Russia?

It's changed a lot. Because, for example, my husband is very good. example to explain it. And he started like blogger and like in live journal. If you remember, it was such a platform. And it was very popular in Russia. Then he started many of other social media, but especially Twitter. He really liked Twitter. And I think that he was very good in it. And Twitter was very good platform. And I liked it very much because it was all the time very easy. to guard information very fast. It was very easy to find all the news. And it was obvious that people who write on Twitter

and have a lot of subscribers, they are very good in putting together all the thoughts when it was able just to put short tweets. And I just loved it. And I loved Alex's jokes. And I think that he did with social. media very well, but it's also because, well, coming back to a question about how social media has changed the world and many other things, like other medias. For example, again, about my husband, why it happened? Because when he became a popular politician, he was blocked from everywhere.

That's why he has no choice to use new social media. And he was in this case very lucky. to live this time. Because otherwise, you know, when you have just radio, blocked, TV, blocked. And then you don't have any other sources. But at the time, he started to do politics and he very quickly was blocked from everywhere. He all the time was trying to new sources from which he's able to bring this information to his supporters and to attract new people. For example, when we were coming back from Germany after his poisoning to, he told me very seriously and I was a little bit scared that he believes in TikTok. In TikTok is a very big platform now and he's going to develop and put a lot of attention in TikTok because he thinks that it's very important platform

now in Russia and it's very important for him. Why I was scared because he usually tries to involved me in such kind of things. And I was just expecting how I need to do a lot of TikToks to think, to open my mouth or to change my cloth probably every day. Julia, you said there when you're in Germany after his poisoning. Was there no part of you that thought there is a very, very high chance when he leave, they've tried to kill him, he survives, he gets treated in Germany. Angela Merkel visits him.

It's a big part of the book that you've done together. But when he went back, there must have been a very large part of you that thought this is like him imposing a death sentence on himself. They are going to kill him. Did you ever try to say to him, if this costs you your life, is it worth doing?

You're probably asking me this question because you never met Alexei. Because I knew that it's very important for him. It's not just words to come back to Russia, to be the example for all these people. It's not, you know, about like, usually you're doing some things, of course, to show the example. He wanted to be this example. He was this example for all these people. And he was sure that people are watching him and he knew that he must be in this first row. Of course we knew that it could be dangerous. Of course we are not crazy and Alexei wasn't crazy at all. He was very rational

in a good way and he of course I think he weighed all the risks but you know sometimes the history makes the other direction. Of course, we knew and it was really very realistic that he would happen to be in prison. But about, you know, murdering we never thought or probably try not to think. To tell us about his vision for Russia, what if he had become the leader, what would he wants Russia to be over the next five, 10 years. You know, it's very easy to answer because comparing to all democratic countries like the United States or United Kingdom or countries in European Union, you have different political parties. You have supporters in these parties and people have competitions in elections. In Russia,

situation is absolutely different. We have Vladimir Putin, who is dictator, who is in the power for 25 years. And the easiest thing to explain what my husband wanted for Russia to become back democratic country with freedom of speech, with fair elections, with people who won in elections and sometimes probably those people are not very pleasant for you, but it should be changeable. So Alexei just wanted democratic, pro-European, Russia. What is the state of the opposition in Russia now? To say the truth, it's almost not possible to do anything inside Russia against Putin because you will be thrown in prison.

You know, probably the case is when people happen to be in prison just for standing on the street alone. like lonely protest with the sheet of papers where it's written no war and they are taking prison for these. They could be in prison for likes in social media they could be in prison

of course for the post in social media that's why of course situation inside Russia were difficult speaking political situation I mean for position that's why the most loud speakers now of course in exile. Okay, Julia, Rory, quick break and then back for more.

Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers. The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung vax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer. It builds on TracerX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer cells over many years to uncover the disease's earliest warning signs. Lung Vax is designed to train the immune system to spot these signs early on, destroying 40 cells before cancer develops.

So it's not treatment, but preventative, with the potential to stop lung cancer before it starts. The first stage of the trial starts this year, focusing on people at higher risk. It shows what long-term research makes possible. For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancerresearchuk.org forward slash the rest is science. Hi everybody, it's Dominic Zawrick here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter.

and I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say, governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues. And people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our

Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson. And we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if

that sounds good to you. How could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Help us, you know, when you think about who could replace Alexei and what the opposition could look like in the future, what is a model or a way of understanding how over the next five or ten years people can challenge Vladimir Putin and create a different Russia? It's not about person. It's about procedure. So we need to do everything by ourselves and to ask world community as well to help us. But of course I understand it's about Russian people, first of all, to make everything Vladimir Putin will gun. And after that, it's about fair elections. As I have already said, I'm not thinking about persons. I'm thinking about fair elections and procedures to make all these procedures democratic. And how do you do this? I mean, it seems to be very difficult.

He kills his opponents. He doesn't allow free elections. So what is your plan for the next five, ten years? You know, by now it's very difficult to plan anything because while Vladimir Putin is in power, everything is absolutely unpredictable. Nobody could, not nobody, but a lot of people, probably more than one million people left country after the war has started.

I don't think those people ever thought to happen in another countries. That's why it's very difficult to speak about some kind of plan. Let's be honest, nobody has this plan. But if I even had this plan, I wouldn't tell you because of many reasons. But it's not possible now. For me, it's absolutely different. We need to build out. We need to attract all the attention to Russia.

I think that last years, Russia had been forgotten, and it's very, very dangerous because still Russia is a huge country. There are a lot of people live there, and to bring and to discuss and to show them that democratic countries and to have democracy in a country is very important. It was very important, but in many reasons, I don't know really why it happened, but in many reasons it happened. And I've seen my main aim to do everything every day. You know, speaking with you to remind about Russia, to be in the kind of conferences, doing like some kind of statements and so on. To be more loud and to remember what's going in Russia in political way and the Vladimir Putin is a dictator.

Do you not feel at risk? I understand, but I think that my husband taught me not to think about it too much. It's important to do what you think is right and continue to do. Of course, after Alex's murder, I feel even much more responsibility than before. Because before he was like politician and I was his wife and also a big supporter. But now, of course, I feel responsibility for him, for our children, for our country to do whatever I can to stop everything what Vladimir Putin had already done is doing and will do. do. How do your children understand his murder? How do they, how did they experience it? How do they think about it now? How do they think about the risk which you're taking? I think that they worry about me

very much. I understand it. Dasha, whom Alistair met, she has already grown up. She's more different than daughter. So she supports a lot. She really supports me. everywhere in everything I'm doing. She's smart. She is a person to whom I now can come and ask her advice. Zahar, he's just 16. He's a teenager. That's why he has his special view of life.

He's very nice. He's very supportive as well. And it's difficult for me and of course for them. You know, we've very good family. When we were four of us, we were together. And of course, just realized that you don't have your father any longer. It's very difficult for any child. For example, Zahar, he saw Alexei the last time when he was 12,

and now he's 16. So all his teenagers years, which are very hard even, for a child in a full family with normal life very hard. And for the heart, it's much more harder. I understand it. I'm trying to support him as well as I can. Yeah, as you say, I met Dashman at an event in Norway. And I have to tell you, you should be incredibly proud.

I can't remember the last time I was so impressed meeting somebody so young. and so clever and smart, and also just had an incredible wisdom about her, given everything that had happened. And she was telling me, for example, that she heard about her father's death, kind of from the news. And she also said,

I wonder if I can ask you this question as well, that she's not sure if she's grieved, and I just wonder whether you've properly grieved and what that was like, or whether you've just been so, propelled into feeling you have to carry on the fight. Thank you so much for your kind words about Dasha. As you understand, for every parent, it's very important to hear such words about their child.

I'm very proud, really. And as you said, she knew the news about Alexis death from news. The same with me, because he was in such situation. and in such far penal colony that it wasn't possible to get anything from him, especially last half a year. It was very strong censorship. His lawyers were imprisoned last autumn when he was in prison. So it was like really, really complicated. And they sent him to such a far penal colony that it wasn't possible even to visit him

every day. So I got everything from the news as well. And what about grief? Do you feel that you've grieved or are you still living with it every day? Well, it's difficult to explain. I don't think that I'm in this kind, very, want to be very open and very emotional. I think that, of course, it will stay with me or not, I think, I'm sure. sure that it will stay with this grief with me all the life. But life is continuing and I need to do

everything what is possible. You know, to cope the grief, all this work, all this Alex's legacy, it helps me a lot, of course. Yulia, can you tell us a little bit about this penal colony? Where was it? What were the conditions he was living in? What sort of place was it? Who else was in the colony? What other kinds of prisoners there were, how his daily life was? I will start from then, probably, from the last penal colony, because he has changed several. Not he, but he was moved from one to another. But he asked a really funny question, who else was in this penal colony?

Because usually, when we speak about penal colony, we can imagine the group of people who are living together or walk together. We can imagine nice, for example, sport yard, which we usually see in American Hollywood movies. It's not the same in Russia. Sometimes it's the same, but for my husband, they did the most severe conditions which could be. It was a small room, a really small, like three to three meters. Then it was another room, not a yard, just another room where he was able to walk. This room just didn't have a roof, that's it. And he wasn't allowed all the food they brought him to this room. He wasn't allowed to lie on the bed all the day. And he wasn't allowed, almost wasn't allowed to have any meetings, like we have short meetings and long meetings with his family.

For more than one year, he wasn't allowed to make a telephone call at all. All the letters from him and to him were censored. For example, speaking about Dasha, she wrote him about her university, about courses which she is going to take for another semester, and they just burned this letter saying that it's like a kind of things which he couldn't get. I'm not speaking about my letters. I could write anything, just very simple things about my regular life,

but they could censor it. I think, of course, it was about isolation. They wanted to isolate him from the people. They knew that he is so charismatic. He is such a strong politician. He is very good in convincing people. He is very nice in speaking people. That's why they were just few people all the time, the same people around him.

That's it. And there were no any prisoners with whom he was able to communicate at all. He all the time was alone. book that you mentioned, which I've read and enjoyed, just tell me how that was put together and whether you see it as part of his ongoing fight. It sort of feels like it's both backward-looking and forward-looking. Do you see that book as being a very, very important part of an ongoing campaign? Of course, absolutely. This book is very important in general. It's about his legacy.

It's about how many people know can read about him through his view about our country and to understand what a person he was. Speaking about

the details, how it was like picked altogether and so on, it was very difficult because a part of the book he wrote very fast. Because he was really good writer also in Germany, but then it was really, really complicated to get some kind of these diaries, depart with diaries from the prison, of course.

Just tell our listeners how that happened, how you were actually able to get those extracts out. Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you because it could bring some people to danger. Okay, okay, but you basically have put the whole thing together telling the story of his life and he was writing at the different stages of his life. Yes, absolutely. That's right. Can you tell us a little bit about what the Russian war with Ukraine means, what it tells us about Putin, what it tells us about Russian nationalism, what it tells us about the future of Russia? It means a lot. It's terrible, awful war, which should never be gone. I think that's about Vladimir Putin's vision of not just Russia, but his country.

I think that he's dreaming about back to Soviet Union. That's why, you know, these signal to some old people who are dreaming about this period, like how powerful and big Russia was, is a signal for them. I don't know. We will see what will it mean in future, but I think that it's like awful situation. Of course, we were neighboring countries. We still neighboring countries, but we were very close. As you know, a lot of Russians married to Ukrainians. And for example, Alex's father is from Ukraine. And of course, the situation is absolutely awful, terrible. And I'm really sorry that still the war politicians couldn't do anything to put bigger pressure on Putin to stop this war.

I think that it has been done for you to stop it. What kind of threat do you think that Putin poses? to other countries in Europe, for example, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Moldova. You know, I think that I have in this field not very good prediction because now I think that, first of all, it's my feeling that whichever threats he sends, still it's very important not to fret on him because he's just sometimes trying to scare people just to show his power, but he doesn't do all of his threats. But from the other side, to say the truth,

I've never thought that he would start the war with Ukraine. I thought that it's like not possible. Who would support the war with your neighbor and with your friend? But it happened. Julia, do you know see yourself as a political figure yourself? Do you think you're now a politician? I think I'm politician. What are your political objectives?

My political objectives, as I have already told you, to bring the situation in any ways to make Putin's regime fallen as soon as possible, to apply to Russian peoples. I think that people in Russia now in a kind of internal exile, are very depressed and very scared of all this situation. And all these things, people, especially people inside Russia, mostly my husband's supporters, who became now my supporters. They're in Russia and it's very important for me to keep this connection with them.

But do you hope one day to be a serving politician in Russia in the Russian democratic system? We'll see. I hope I'll have this opportunity, but there is a very, very long way to bring it happen soon. What's your economic and social vision for Russia? So Russia has, significant problems with its population, aging population, declining population, some problems with the way the economy functions. How would you think about these things? It's again bringing us back to the question about when I told you that now for me it's not about vision of economic and everything. When Vladimir Putin is 25 years in power, I'm absolutely. open in any discussions about economic and some kind of social things in Russia.

Because I think that it's really very important now to change this regime and to bring Russia back to democracy. And we'll come back. I hope that we have a wide range of opposition and we will have all these discussions. It's a long, long way to be. bring it to a right direction. You met President Biden, not wrong after Alex's murder. I just wonder what that meeting was like. I wonder what you thought of the current sanctions regime against Putin. And I wondered whether you were what your views were about how you think Donald Trump views

Putin and whether that helps or harms what you're trying to do. Many questions, either one. starting from the meeting with Joe Biden, it was a very good one. And I appreciate his support. I appreciate his sincere words. We had very long conversation, probably more than one hour. Before, we were told, like, it would be like 20 minutes, but still we're starting to talk, and we talked a lot.

And speaking about sanctions, it's just not about America. about European Union and all countries which impose sanctions, I think that it's not about the war with Ukraine. It started many years ago. For example, how many years, probably 18 years ago, when Putin in Munich Security Conference had his infamous speech about confrontation with the West, so he sent the signal. Nothing has been done.

Then in 2014, there was an action of Crimea. Nothing has been done. It sounds like a joke because sanctions were imposed at that time against probably about 30 people, like local officials in Crimea. It sounds really weird. Putin doesn't care about this local. officials in Crimea. When the war has started,

do you remember, they were like a lot of sanctions imposed, a lot of brands clothed their shops, saying like, we are not going to work with Russia any longer, and so on. What happened now? Everything

the same in Moscow. Everything you can buy. Those sanctions just don't work. I don't know. I think that if you impose sanctions, you just need to take a look sometimes what's going on. I was really surprised at this autumn that they were very proud news

that they were imposed sanctions against Russia today, the biggest propaganda channel. This year, really. And after the war in Ukraine continues more two years, So I think that situation with sanctions, I'm not asking about more sanctions. I warned these sanctions would be done with more wisdom. In understanding what, okay, you're doing these sanctions, they need to bring to somewhere. But they're just, I don't think I can see any strategy about these sanctions.

And where the people who import these sanctions want, the sanction will. bring and what could be changed. And about Donald Trump, well, we'll see which is the beginning. My final question, Yulia, what do you think sometimes foreign audiences do not understand about the situation in Russia? When you read foreign commentators talking about your husband or talking about Putin or talking about Russia, what are some mistakes? What do you think the West sometimes misunderstands about the reality in Russia? I think that the most right answer will be that Vladimir Putin is not Russia and Russia is not Vladimir Putin. It's very important to remember that there are a lot of people who are against this regime, who are against Vladimir Putin, who against the war.

And when you live in a democratic country and you have a president, you have a president, you, think that and you believe that he has been chosen by majority of population of your country. But it's not the same in Russia. We don't have elections. You can watch on TV the reports about elections, but they can just change everything. And let's be honest, there are no democratic countries where the president got 80% of words. Yudin, my final question, and thank you so much for your time. You said earlier that you've never met Vladimir Putin. I just wondered, in what circumstances might you want to meet Vladimir Putin?

And what would you say to him? I never wanted and I don't want to meet Vladimir Putin. And to say the truth that I don't have any wish to meet Vladimir Putin. don't have any wish to meet him, because from my experience and for experience of my family, he all the time lies, he all the time betray. That's why I don't think that I would love to speak with him or to, I have anything to speak, to tell him. Well, thank you for talking to us.

Thank you very much. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you. Thank you for your time. It's a pleasure. Bye-bye. So, Alastah, it's a horrifying, As she points out, she's a mother of a young daughter and even younger son, whose husband

disappeared from their lives four years ago and who was locked in solitary confinement in the Arctic circle and then murdered by Vladimir Putin and who has decided to continue the fight and take up the mantle and speak for him and represent his ideals and lead his party. what did you feel listening to her and engaging with her? A sense of him, which I already had done when talking to Dasher in Norway. I was at this event that we were both at and spent quite a lot of time talking to her and got a sense of his courage, I think, but also their complete acceptance of his approach. When I read the book, I was trying to think, I mean, Fiona, my Fiona, often thinks that I'm a bit sort of, you know,

strong-willed and a bit kind of driven and I get obsessive and I don't take no for an answer and da-da-da-da-da. But I think when you set me or something like me alongside him, if somebody tried to kill me in my own country and then I'd been hospitalised in another country, I don't think Fiona would have been, she would have let me get her back on that plane. But both Dasher and now Yulia have said to me, it did not even cross their minds because they knew. he was going back. Now, that is courage, and it is leadership. I was slightly distressed, depressed a bit down. She seemed to be saying, these aren't her words. I'm paraphrasing and making some eyes here. She seemed to be saying that until Putin dies or disappears

or falls, it's going to be very hard to mount any kind of real opposition inside Russia. Yeah. That's quite a, you know, because that was, at least when he was alive, was that feeling of there is an opposition. You can point to a figure of opposition. And although she said it's about the processes, it is ultimately about people and who rise to positions of leadership. Yeah. I suppose a couple of things. One of them, of course, is that there is still, you know, even at opinion polls, a dodgy, a lot of support for Putin in Russia and a lot of nationalism in Russia and a lot of people who feel that Russia needs a strong man ruler and that it was weak

with its experiment with democracy. So you're running up against a massive authoritarian machine, which is not just saying Putin is the great leader, but this is the system that Russia needs. And the other final thing for me, which I guess relates to what you were saying about you getting on a plane and Fiona not being happy with this, is that we often, in the rest of politics,

talk about politics as though you're talking about the same thing in Britain as you might be in. other countries. And actually, the Gulf is unbelievable. If you are a political leader in Palestine or a political leader in Syria, or a opposition leader in Russia, or a political leader in Eastern Congo at the moment, or indeed, actually, even a politician in Jamaica, where there have been extraordinary numbers of assassinations or in Pakistan, where leaders get killed all the time, you realize that politics isn't quite like our politics, that it's demanding something entirely existential, that the level of idealism, courage, and acceptance of the risk of death

makes it not just a sort of difference in quantity, but a complete difference. and moral quality. One of the films that his team, the Navalny team that are carrying on his work did recently was about a Russian politician who is basically a Russian businessman who uses the fact of being a politician to kind of oil his business

and be corrupt and corrupt other people. And, you know, we can complain about our politicians, but he just couldn't get away with that sort of thing. Whereas the thing about, you know, fish rotting from the head down, Putin has created a corrupt political system, a corrupt, corrupt oligarchy presides over it. And I think he was Navalny the first person to start to push this line, that it was a mafia state? I think he might have been.

So, and it was interesting, Rory, when you asked what kind of Russia Vladimir Putin led, I think the concept that she was most comfortable with was the idea that it was as a mafia state. Anyway, brave family, brave woman, and good to talk to her. Thank you, Alison. Bye-bye. See you soon. Bye.