The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 130. The Prime Minister of Australia: Trump, China, and Social Media (Anthony Albanese)

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

What is the impact of Trump and China on the Australian election on 3rd May? How has the Australian government taken on social media companies to protect young users? How did Prime Minister Anthony Albanese track down and reunite with his long lost father? Alastair and Rory are joined by Anthony Albanese, the Australian Prime Minister, to answer all this and more. Exclusive INCOGNI Deal: To get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan, go to https://incogni.com/leading  The Rest Is Politics Plus: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to Question Time episodes to live show tickets, ad-free listening for both TRIP and Leading, our exclusive newsletter, discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Social producer: Harry Balden Assistant Producers: Alice Horrell Producers: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's therestispoletics.com. Welcome to a very special live episode of the Restis Politics leading with me, Alice Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. And the reason it's special is because, as you can see, if you're watching on YouTube, we've got the Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. And he's right in. in the middle of the general election campaign, to which he's leading his beloved Labor Party

against the right-wing Liberal Party, led by Mr. Dutton, who's trying to oust him. And I think it's exactly two weeks to go. So we'll talk about the election, but there's also so much else going on in the world, China, Trump, Orcus, Europe, the UK, climate. There's so much going on that we want to get through. But regular listeners know that we like to start with the backstory to our interviewees and the man, universally known as Albo, owes that very name to a remarkable backstory.

So, first of all, welcome, but let's kick off with that. Just tell us the story of your mum and your dad, because it is a pretty remarkable tale. Yeah, thanks. And thanks, thanks, everyone, for joining us online or

watching at a later time as well. It's a great pleasure to be able to talk to this audience, which has a very large following in Australia, along with other places as well. Well, I was born in 1963 to my mother, Mary Ann, who travelled overseas, did the Australian journey, then by ship, the Fair Star. She travelled via what was then Singapore and Ceylon and then through the Middle East. to Southampton. There she met my father who worked on the ship, Carlo. And so I, they had a

relationship. I came along in 1963 and my mother found that she was pregnant to him. He was portrayed to someone from his town in Italy. So she returned home. At that time, of course, in 1963, it wasn't acceptable to have a child out of wedlock. So the neighbourhood where she lived with her mother and father in a council house in Camperdown, which is in the inner city of Sydney, everyone was told that my father had died. and that she was supposed to lose the baby in childbirth and I was to be adopted out. That was a very common thing, particularly in the Catholic community. But of course, none at St Margaret's Hospital knew that she didn't want to give me up,

so I was brought into her, and she wasn't about to let go of me. So I was born. I was told that my father was deceased until I was a teenager. And when she thought I was old enough in my teens, she told me the true story. And so I did. I was 46 when I met my father. When she told me, I was a pretty tough young kid. My mom was an invalid pension.

She had rheumatoid arthritis. She was very crippled. crippled up with that so she couldn't work. So my grandparents passed away when I was young and there was just me and mum in the house. And she had a tough life, basically, but she gave me unconditional love and was a great mum. And so for me at the time, I was, well, he didn't want to know about me, so I don't really want to know much about him. and that was the right thing you did by her as well, in my view at the time, to reassure her that she was enough in my life.

So I didn't search for him at all until she passed away in 2002. In December of 2000, I was fortunate enough to have Nathan, our son, my then wife and myself, had our son. And there was a day when I was visiting my mum's grave at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney here. And my son said to me, it was a little boy, said it was about, he was about five. And he said, where's your daddy? And I realized that it wasn't fair on him to say, you know, I don't know, because I didn't really know at that time. So it took a little while to find him.

but I was very fortunate. There were shipping records and I was able to find him in Puglia and travelled over in December 2009 to meet him and to meet now. People I found was a half-sister and brother as well and nieces and nephews. And it was a wonderful completion

of my life, of my identity and knowing of where I came from. He passed away in 2014, but in that brief period, I got to engage with him and I took my son over to meet his grandfather in Easter, actually, was there for Easter 2010, and I took him back another time as well. And he engages now with his cousins on social media. on Facebook, etc. And he's been over there independently as well to meet with his Italian relatives. Well, Prime Minister, just sort of very quickly at that

because we should get back onto politics and elections. But what is it like meeting your father for the first time when you were in mid-40s? I guess he was already quite an old man by then. What was his personality? What kind of guy was he? What surprised you about him? What were you not expecting?

Did you see yourself in him? Well, I was the transport minister at the time, and I had a meeting scheduled in Rome. We were trying to do an air services agreement between Australia and Europe. The European Union minister was Minister Tajani, who I'd met in Brussels, and we agreed to meet in Rome. And so I had this visit to Rome scheduled, and I contacted the family. They were a little bit cautious. I did it through an intermediary. I did it carefully and respectfully.

I just said that my mother, Marianne Ellery, which was her birth name, and indeed the name that she really had, was known to Carlo and that I'd be visiting on this day. Like I literally had a window that was ours. And so I wasn't sure what to expect, but he walked in to there was an intermediary, a solicitor friend of my brothers. And he walked in and just put his arms out and embraced me.

And it was a wonderful chapter, really, in my life. And it could have ended, you know, he could have said, I have no idea what you're talking about. I had no expectations. I made it clear through the intermediary. I didn't want anything. I just wanted to meet the person who I thought was my father. So we had a meeting with the intermediary on the Saturday night,

and then Sunday morning we were able to connect. And it's interesting the way that genetics works, but my son looks just like one of his cousins or did when they were younger. a not really no he was a seafarer he was a man of the world travel the world from a relatively poor part of Italy of course I thought he was from Naples because that was what my mother had told me about them docking in Naples at one stage ended up he was on the other side of that beautiful part of Italy there. But he was, he had lost some of his English, but occasionally it

would be completely fluent. And so I could certainly see what my mother saw in him, but he'd lived a whole life with his family, their lovely, warm, beautiful people and they were very welcoming of me. It's a bit, it's a bit strange for them, I think, having some on across the other side of the world who's now the Australian PM. But it's the world's a complex place and relationships are complex as we know. And was your, was your mum political? Was she, was she, I mean, you went into politics really young. I mean, like you were, you were campaigning for Labor, like as a teenager, you were,

I think you're an MP in your early 30s. Was she pushing you in that direction? or was it the values that she gave you that pushed you in that direction? Where did the politics come? Well, I say that I was raised by my mum with three great faiths. The Catholic Church, the Australian Labor Party and South Sydney Rugby League Football Club. And where I grew up in council housing, part of the culture, really, was that people went to church on Sunday.

People went to the Labor Party branch on the second Wednesday or the first Monday of the month. And they voted Labor. I don't think before I went to university, I met anyone who admitted to not voting Labor. It was just part of the culture. And the council housing where I grew up and that then got sold to the state government

and became state government public housing. My mum lived there for her entire 65 years of her life. She was spent essentially after all of 65 years. But it was very much part of the culture, so I would have been going along to Branchmen. She never held a position in her life. She was a life member of the Labor Party

because she was in it for 40 years. And my grandfather was president of the Camp Down Branch of the Labor Party. They were just rank and file people. He was a printer. So he did a lot of printing for the Labor Party. He had his own printing business. My mum would have seen, I remember, 1972, I was a little kid, but I do remember when

Gough Whitlam won, it was seen up to 23 years of Conservative rule. It was seen as our team winning. And that was the way that everyone saw it in my local neighbourhood. But Prime Minister, one of the things that's changing all over the world, but in Australia as well as Britain, is that when that election you've just described happened, 90% of people voted for the two main parties. And we're now moving into a world where perhaps only 60% of people vote for the two main parties. And we've had this very dramatically in Britain, but the polling in Australia seems pretty similar. What do you think is going on around the world, which means that we're moving from almost everybody going after two parties to, to increasing numbers of people pursuing different types of smaller parties?

It reflects the economic and social changes which are there. When I grew up, I was taught. You join your union. When I started work at the local supermarket, Grace Brothers, you join your union. You vote Labor and that's what you do. And people's class position was more entrenched. less mobile as well, I think. And so that was part of the culture of what you do. Today, people

have access to a range of views and the diversity. This podcast in itself is a part of that process of people getting information, which is much more complex. diverse from a range of different views and perspectives. It used to be that everyone would watch ABC News here or Channel 7 and Channel 9, whatever their preferred channel was and they'd read their daily newspaper of choice as well. And there was much more commonality. One of the things that's happening is fragmentation. And that can be a plus,

but it also can lead to a fragmentation of political processes. And so I think it is pretty a natural result of those economic and social changes that we're seeing. And so many things going on. We've got the teal independence, people like me who tend to be pretty independent, get excited by and enjoyed visiting them in Sydney. but you've also entered an election in the age of Trump and at least the perception from the United Kingdom is that if you win this election

it will be partly thanks to Donald Trump that your opponent who felt that he was in a strong position, Peter Dutton, has now been completely thrown off course by the fact that that brand of right-wing politics suddenly seemed slightly less fresh and exciting than it might have done three months ago. I think some of that can be overestimated. Peter Dutton is quite a conservative leader, to say the least.

And one of the processes you've seen in the seats around Sydney Harbour is that your traditional conservative seats like Wentworth is one of the most expensive real estate areas in the world. And both North Head and South Head are now controlled by or represented by independent Teal candidates. Indeed, there are eight seats on Sydney Harbour. Five are held by the Labour Party and three are held by Teal independents. And over a period of time, smaller Liberals have been pushed out of the Liberal Party. One of the things that I say is, you know, will the last modern, it to leave the Liberal Party turn the lights out. It is a bit like that. So people who are

economically conservative, they're certainly not pro-union, but they believe in climate change, they believe in gender equity, they believe in integrity and politics we have committed to and done, delivered a National Anti-Corruption Commission here. They ran on essentially those three platforms and we have done all of those things. So I think that the Liberal Party has moved away from those moderates. And so we're seeing a different dynamic. And as a result, Peter Dutton was asked a question this week about the science of climate change. It wasn't really. It was Dorothy Dixar really in a debate that we had. And he said, well, I'm not of scientists and there's different views.

You can have to explain Dorothy Dixarralbo. Oh, well, there, a full toss outside leg stump, how's that for a cricketing country? But it stumped him. It was rather strange, given that we have, in Australia, we've just had this massive, flooding event arising from a tropical cyclone in a non-tropical area of southeast Queensland and northern New South Wales. So I can't see the TIL independence losing what used to be safe conservative seats. Have you, you've, I watched a whole load of podcasts that you did in recent weeks.

And it was really interesting how some of the questions, the themes that kept coming through. And one was this jive that you were a weak leader kept coming through, kept being part of the questioning. Now, I just wonder, I've always had a sense of Australian politics as being pretty brutal. It sure is. Yeah. And is that just part of the kind of, you know, the cut and thrust of policies? Or have you deliberately been trying to kind of soften the tone of politics? Look, one of the things that I said in the lead up to the 2022 election when we were elected

was that people had conflict fatigue. They were sick of politicians shouting at each other. So I am someone who regards that business and unions, for example, have common interest. So one of the first things that we did was to legislate for net zero emissions and a 43% reduction in emissions by 2030. And we had a mechanism, safeguard mechanism, which put simply is placing a limit, which then goes down each year on the biggest, the largest emitters, the institutions, so your coal fire power stations or your mines or your aluminium refineries, etc. And so we had business and unions came together, all supported that legislation. I brought unions and business

and civil society together to talk about jobs and skills in a summit at the end of 2022 as well. So I have consciously tried to bring people together and to reduce conflict. But in part, that's the style of Peter Dutton with his cheer squad in the media. as well, we'll repeat those comments in order to try to undermine and to try to fit into what Peter Dutton thought was the zeitgeist, if you like, of strength channeling some other world leaders we're seeing regarding, almost say, I'm very disciplined, regarding bringing a machismo essentially to politics. And that is something that I think alienates the centre.

And politics in Australia, we have a different system as well. We have compulsory voting and people do go and vote and there's record numbers on the electoral role. You win elections from either the centre left or the centre right. and I think what has happened, we'll see how it plays out over the next couple of weeks, but certainly Peter Dutton has gone out of his way to appeal to a right-wing base, and there isn't too much that is there for the centre that can be seen as being moderate. Prime Minister, one of the things that I think people worry about in Australia and around the world

is that the centre ground sometimes looks like it's slightly lacking energy. And there's a general sense that housing prices will be too high. Government is not as productive and efficient. Immigration is too high. And the centre often communicates an impression that there's not a great deal it can do about it. You know, we infude a man called Ezra Klein last week who was saying that the problem for the centre left is it often ends up defending. the government when it's indefensible, when the right is always attacking the government,

even when it can be defended. How do you bring a sense of energy back? So people don't feel just sort of generally slightly underwhelmed and disappointed in a sense that your government's been a bit disappointing and inert? By pointing out three things, essentially, has been our plan for this election campaign to defend our record of what we have done, to then say what we will do, what's the forward offer. And we have related, the measures that we're put in place on the forward offer have been very consciously ones that remind people also

of what we have achieved in this term. And then, of course, the risk of Peter Dutton and the Conservatives. So whether it is getting inflation down, inflation had a six in front, and it's now 2.5. We've done that importantly while creating more jobs than have been created by any government in history and a lower average unemployment rate than any government in the last 50 years. It's just 4.1%.

And we've done it as well to break economic orthodoxy with real wages increasing. So real wages have increased the last five quarters in a row. So we are saying to people we have understood the need to deal with cost of living pressures, but we've done so in a way that hasn't caused contradictory positions of inflation going up. If we just pump money into the economy and did what some on the left would want us to do, then that wouldn't have achieved the outcome of looking after people. inflation, of course, hurts the poor more than the wealthy. So we, I think, have achieved our economic objectives in the macro sense.

Well, recognising, though, that many people are doing it tough. Global inflation has had an impact. We've had the biggest energy crisis since the 1970s. And so that's part of our pitch is we've done that, whilst designing the cost of living relief that we've done. for example, cheaper childcare has helped families, but it also boosts productivity. It boosts workforce participation and it lowers inflation. We've got energy rebates.

We intervene in the market in a way that if you had to say before the election, it would have seemed to be extraordinarily radical. We had a cap on coal and gas prices. but that was one we did in partnership with the Conservative government here in New South Wales, the largest state. So we have had three lots of energy rebates. We've introduced free TAFE that's reduced the costs of people doing their vocational education training courses, doing apprenticeships in traditional blue collar jobs where skills are required,

but also in the care economy, age care, child care, disability. care. Can I just jump in? That's benefited. Can I just, can I just jump in there? Because what you're doing, you set out, and we had, back in 2001, we had this framing for the election, lots done, lots to do, lots to lose. And it sounds to me, that is your framing.

It's 100% support that approach. But you also said you were very disciplined in that you talked about other strong men leaders around the world. And I just wonder, you got Mark Carney. in Canada, probably going to win the election next week, and will, I think, have Donald Trump, to some extent to thank for that. I just wonder whether you owe Donald Trump as well. Has Donald Trump changed the dynamic in the way that people are looking at Dutton and therefore the way that they're looking at you? And is that something you welcome, or is it something you

wish was not a factor in your election? I think it's far less. Canada obviously has a border with the United States and it's pretty brutal and up front that division that is going on there. You don't have the anthems being played in a way that's occurred at ice hockey games in Canada. So it is more distant, but certainly the uncertainty that's there in the global economy and the world. has an impact as well. And my government has been really determined as well to improve the relations that we have with ASEAN nations in our region, with the Pacific, with India, as well as we've restored the trade relationship with China. So I think there is a view that we have managed relations far greater. Historically, the Conservative parties have for a long time. They were

dependent on the link with the UK and then the link with the US as well. We regard both those relationships as important, but the relationships in our region are also pretty significant. Is China now more important to you than Europe, Britain, America? Well, China in trade represents almost one in four of Australia's exports as a destination. So if you compare that with the United States, for example, in the current trade issues, we have a 10% tariff imposed in an active. economic self-harm by the US administration. But that represents less than 5% of Australia's exports.

So it as a significant impact on our economy, we wish it wasn't happening and we were working it through constructively. But it doesn't have the same impact that the trade impediments that were there in China, which were worth over $20 billion to our exports, had a severe impact on the Australian economy. Prime Minister, with all these tensions for America, there's now a lot of pressure in Europe to get from certain people

to get much closer to China. I wonder whether you could find a way of explaining both the opportunities of China, but also being realistic about some of the risks, some of the things you need to be realistic about in dealing with China? This is part of the dynamic that has really changed with the election of the Trump administration as well. We have had strategic competition in the region between China and the United States, and Australia chose a side a long time ago there, and stands with democracies around.

the world, China has different values. And that doesn't mean, though, that we can't engage constructively. So my motto is that we'll cooperate where we can, we'll disagree where we must, and we'll engage in our national interest. Now, part of the dynamic and it's not clear how it will play out in the region is that China has sought to exercise its influence in the region. The difference between Australia giving aid in the Pacific and China giving aid is that we do it without strings attached. We do it because it's the right thing to do to uplift the living standards of disadvantaged nations in the developing world. And part of that is the mitigation of climate change, for example, has been a major element there. We have work visits in Australia to assist then to repatriate

dollars back to places like Vanuatu and the Solomons and other nations in the Pacific. Now, China will tend to have things attached. So they'll build a police station but then say, oh, we need some Chinese security presence there in order to move forward. So it is an era of competition. Now, the United States' decisions to withdraw from aid and withdraw from Paris will have a real impact on the standing of the United States in the region. Now, Australia, we want to be the security partner of choice in the region and we'll continue to step up. But there's no doubt that any time the United States steps back, China will seek to step forward.

And that is a strategic reality that we have to deal with. We have to deal with it in a mature way, in a considered way. And that's something that my government has been able to do. I went a couple of years ago. I gave the address at the Shangri-R dialogue, the major Defence and Security Conference held in our region, second perhaps only to the NATO Summit in the world. really. And there I outlined very much Australia's position that was in the context of the Biden

administration, not the change that we've seen in our own region. Okay, let's take a quick break, and then back for more Australia in a minute. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers, The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years, of work, cancer research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung vax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer. It builds on TracerX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer cells over many years to uncover the disease's earliest warning signs. Lung Vax is designed to train the immune system to spot these signs

early on, destroying faulty cells before cancer develops. So it's not treatment, but preventative with the potential to stop lung cancer before it starts. The first stage of the trial starts this year, focusing on people at higher risk. It shows what long-term research makes possible. For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancerresearchuk.org forward slash the rest is safe. science. Hi everybody. It's Dominic Zavrick here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying

Alastair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Rest History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war, in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of,

I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain, and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history,

we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson, and we'll be talking about one of the grimest moments.

It's in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. When you were talking there about Australia relations with these other countries, and you very consciously mentioned you stand with democracies, you've also been very, very strong in support of Ukraine. Russia is hard to defend as a democracy. How do you feel about the fact that we seem to be in a place where America is blaming Zelensky, siding with Putin, and now saying, having said he was going to solve this war in 24 hours,

now saying that actually he might walk away from the talks. Are you as worried as some of the European leaders are? We are concerned, and I've been a part of the discussions that have been convened by Prime Minister Stama and President Macron. And Australia does get engaged, even though it's a long way from us here, or we've contributed over a billion dollars of military aid as well as other support. And we regard the struggle of President Zelensky and the Ukrainian people

has been not just about defending their national sovereignty and defending their borders and their people. It is a struggle about the international rule of law. and if Russia is allowed to get away with this breach of the law and with the atrocities that have been committed, the targeting of civilians, even in recent days we've seen it yet again of a major missile attack and then they wait until the rescuers get there at a church service and then target again. So the rescuers, the people helping to provide medical support, the actions have been barbaric

by Russia. We've called it out. We'll continue to put sanctions on and we'll stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes is our view. And I've said that. But what does it say about America and America's leadership in the world? They seem to be in this very, very different position to you, to Stama, to Macron to the new German Chancellor?

Well, it's just a different dynamic. We'll wait and see what the relationship is between the US and NATO going forward. But I'm positive. I'm an optimist by definition. But one of the positive things that I've been engaged with over my time as Prime Minister, as a call, it was very late on a Saturday night

here in Australia. And so many of the world's leaders, including not just the European democracies, but also New Zealand, Canada and ourselves, were of common views and with that sense of common purpose. And I take heart from that, that the world just won't retreat. and if the United States takes a different position, then people won't say, well, that's the big country and therefore will change our position.

I mean, Australia will determine our nation's position as a sovereign country. And I've said that we're very open to if peace can occur, we of course want peace to occur there. and if there is a peacekeeping mission, then we would give consideration of being part of that coalition of the willing. Primez, one of the things that's so exciting about visiting Australia

is the sense that you are in this very dynamic growing part of the world, while the rest of us feel a bit gloomy about things. Give us a sense of where the whole Asia-Pacific region could be in 2030 years' time. We talked about China, but... Southeast Asia, Japan, Korea or something. Give international this as a sense of your region and where it could be going. Well, I am so optimistic about the future of this region. It's fastest growing region of the world in human history.

You have double-digit growth in so many countries for a lot of the past couple of decades. And you will see China will, of course, is now the second largest economy, but you'll see the rise of India, which will grow to be the third largest economy. Indonesia will go to be the fourth. ASEAN is so important. I hosted all of the Southeast Asian nations in Melbourne last year in March. I was so pleased that every single leader came. There were no deputies or treasurers or vice-presents.

Every leader came to Melbourne. And that showed a great deal of respect that they had for Australia, but it was also a sign that they appreciated our engagement and reaching out. One of the things I did was give a fellow who ran Macquarie Bank would be familiar to. Nicholas Moore did this report for us on a South East. Asia economic strategy to 2040. Now, that looks very prescient now, given what is occurring with the United States. It looked at what are the opportunities, what are the comparative advantages that we have with Southeast Asia. So to give just one example, I say that Australia can be a

renewable energy superpower. There is what will be the world's largest solar farm is proposed for the Northern Territory to export energy to Singapore and potentially, of course, on the way through cables, parts of Indonesia as well. It's an incredibly exciting prospect. We've spoken about exporting fossil fuels. We've been very important for the Australian economy in the last century and they continue to be an important part of our economy today.

But as we transition to a clean energy economy, this prep represents an incredible opportunity that Australia has of that engagement with the region. The other thing about the region is that people need to comprehend, I guess, is that for many countries, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, when you are sitting down and talking with leaders over the strategic competition that is here in the region, US and China, they want not to back a team. This isn't, you know, are you, man you or man city? This is they want everyone to get on wherever possible is really what they're looking for.

So for many of them will be inclined, of course, historically to the United States, the Philippines, Singapore, but they really want peace in the region as well. They want security. And so that's a bit of a handbrake on the hawks, if you like, in global politics as well, which I see as being potentially quite positive going forward. And of course, they're great democracies. Indonesia, the largest Islamic population on earth. India, what has been achieved there, lifting people out of poverty is quite remarkable over the last decade.

And so I've been to Indonesia three times, India twice, Japan three times in the recent period as well as Prime Minister just since 2002, as well as other nations, well. You're given is a very optimistic picture of the future, but can we just go a little bit back into the past? I noticed you're flagged behind you. You've got the Australian flag, the Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islanders flag. I just wondered what you learned from your experience of the voice referendum. That was the first big thing you did in government. You gave the Australians the chance to put this commitment to the Aboriginal community into the constitution. And you lost. And I just wondered what you thought that said about Australia. You clearly were very confident you were going to win that campaign. And I just wonder whether you felt that set back the image of a

modern Australia and where that debate lies now. Well, referendums are hard to win Australia. It is really easy to run a no campaign rather than an ES campaign. And historically, I think the figure is something like eight out of 48 is the success rate and no referendum has ever been carried without bipartisan support. Now, I was hopeful of bipartisan support. Peter Dutton appointed one of the architects of the voice, Julian Lisa, as the shadow minister for Indigenous affairs, but also shadow attorney general. And I took that as a positive sign. The Uluru statement came asking for constitutional recognition in a form of, it was a non-binding advisory committee, basically on matters affecting Indigenous Australians.

And so there really was a modest proposal, a modest request. and Indigenous people had waited for years to get that to happen. It was a product of many years. In your judgment, how are they feeling now, having lost that opportunity? Well, Indigenous Australians, many are, of course, will remain very hurt by the outcome of the referendum. Overwhelmingly, Indigenous communities voted yes in that referendum. It came from a constitutional convention held at Uluru by Indigenous Australians themselves. And of course, our constitution is our nation's birth certificate.

And this nation didn't begin in 1788. We proudly have 65,000 years of history, including the oldest continuous culture on earth. And that should be, in my view, should be a source of pride. It certainly is to me leading this nation. And so the referendum was disappointing. But then again, there have been two referendums on four-year terms that have been knocked back as well. As soon as someone says no, it is really easy.

And there was a lot of, there was a big negative campaign put out there. And it was some of the misinformation that was out there is something that was hurtful. there's a massive gap in Australia, in birth rates, health outcomes, education outcomes, housing outcomes between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. I felt like it was time to give Australians a say in that so that Indigenous people could have a say. But we're continuing to consult and we're continuing to engage in practical programs of economic empowerment for Indigenous people as well. well as increased support for health, housing, education outcomes as well.

Yeah. I must that why, why hasn't this worked? I mean, why, regardless of which party's been in, for decades now, Indigenous Australians have faced very, I mean, it's shocking. As you say, life expectancy figures, education figures, children and care, access to tertiary education, justice system. I mean, what is it going to take to sort this out? And why has the Australian government failed for so long to tackle this?

Well, it's intergenerational disadvantage as hard to overcome. We need to recognise that it wasn't until the late 1960s that indigenous people were recognised at all as citizens until in my lifetime children were taken from parents because they were indigenous. the stolen generation. And that has had a traumatic impact on Indigenous Australians. Kevin Rudd gave the apology as the first act of the incoming Labor government in 2008.

So it won't be solved in a week or a month. It will be, though hopefully progress made. There is, a lot of progress has been made. We're doing things like converting what essentially make work programs into programs that have real skills and real training and real wages attached. We're addressing educational disadvantage as well with our better and fairer schools funding agreement that is seeing that flow.

Health outcomes, there are health issues that impact Indigenous Australians in 2020. that don't impact others. We need to recognise it and to act on it. Of course, intergenerational disadvantage is just that. Because it's occurred over a period of time, it will take time to solve. But the way that it's solved has to be through empowerment and giving Indigenous Australians a say themselves.

Not through the voice, that obviously we accept the outcome of that, but it doesn't mean that we won't try to empower Indigenous Australians. And we've done that recently with an agreement in the Northern Territory across a range of issues. Let me just ask you a couple of questions about the media. Rupert Murdoch, force for good or falls for bad, in Australian and global politics. And secondly, one thing that Roy and I have talked about a lot on the podcast, it came actually when I met Peter Malinouskas when I was at the Adelaide Book Festival last year,

is what you've done in relation to social media. And a lot of our listeners will know about that, but some won't. So first of all, Murdoch will then explain what it is you're trying to do with social media young people and why. Yeah. Rupert Murdoch and the News Corp are a dominant feature of the Australian media landscape. We engage constructively, but we also don't get, I think, the task for a CENAF leader is not to expect that the Australian newspaper, for example, will.

will be 50% for you and 50% against. It is just a fact of life that they have a particular position and the task is not to be taken off course on that. And I do think that people factor it in as well. The media landscape now is far more diverse. And so I just engage, I engage with all media outlets across the board. We don't tend not to have a cheer squad with the Labor Party. There tends to be a cheer squad to the left of us, cheering on the Green's political party in some vehicles, or tends to be a much larger cheer squad for the conservatives.

But people are able to assess where that is coming from and my task is just to not get blown off course by it. We do have what is world leading reform, which is a social media ban effectively on those young Australians under the age of 16. Now we had had a number of young Australians and I spoke to parents who lost their children. And the impact of social media can have a positive role, of course, but the impact on young Australians is something that my government felt like we had to address. We know that the banning of phones and devices in schools, which many state governments have done, has had a really positive impact on people actually being able to, one, get better education.

But second, as well, learn some old-fashioned social skills by talking to each other in the playground and by engaging with each other and heaven forbid actually playing sport and engaging. And that's part of our message here is to empower parents to say, well, the government says you shouldn't be online or on Facebook or on Twitter. or X as it's called now. And we don't pretend either that it will be 100% successful, just like the state gives a directive that people under the age of 18

shouldn't have access to alcohol. It doesn't mean it's Saturday night here in Australia. Chances are somewhere in Australia, there might be one or two people who have a beer who are under the age of 18, but it does set those norms and regulations out there as well. It's been met with a fierce response by the big social media companies. But we say that. What have they been like to deal with?

Because they're so powerful in the world now. And they've now got an American government that seems to be on their side in the main. What have they been like? Elon Musk has made some rather colourful. comments about the government in Australia, as he tends to do. But I think that says more about him than it does about us. We've got a responsibility to act, but I make this point as well. Social media companies have a social responsibility to have that social license.

And quite clearly, you know, they can tell you everything about who you are. They know more about so many of our citizens than people's friends and certainly their parents do, but then they say, oh, this is all too hard. The truth is that we are trialing, a range of methods as well. What we did was we passed the legislation. It did have bipartisan support across the Parliament, which was very important. And we have 12 months. So it kicks in next December.

and I'm sure that there will be major pressure placed on by the social media companies in the lead-up to that December. We will have significant penalties if there are breaches, conscious breaches by social media companies. We, of course, have made sure that we look after educational tools and other sites that are used for education and for other positive purposes. And I'm sure there'll be a big push. But if we are successful, and we're a long way from being assured of that in 14 days' time, a lot can happen in an election campaign.

I'm sure that come December, maybe we can chat again about the pressure that's being placed on the Australian government by these companies. regardless of what position you're in at that time. Oh, absolutely, but I'm sure that they'll particularly place pressure on the government of the day, and I won't be budging, and I've assured them of that,

and I think they've got that message. Prime Minister, penultimate question for me, I've been very struck by how central Israel, Gaza is in a lot of these Australian commentaries and campaigns. And it's an international issue, but it also feels very domestic. And we're at a moment where Netanyahu's government has effectively rejected the ceasefire, imposed blockades on food into Gaza. We're talking at a moment where, yeah, this is becoming increasingly central as an ethical. and international issue. How do you find a way of talking about this, which is nuanced, honest,

clear and has moral principles? By taking a principal position. And so after October 7, the resolution that was carried with the support of the major parties by the parliament, I think has stood the test of time. It spoke about the loss of innocence and life as being unacceptable. Since then, we have taken a principal position of opposing the terrorist act of Hamas on October 7, but also calling for a ceasefire, expressing our objections to the extraordinary loss of innocent life that's occurred in Gaza, calling for, and we have placed ourselves additional aid, into Gaza, calling for the hostages to be released, and calling for, importantly, a two-state solution, of which for a while there, I think that there was a real progress potentially being made.

Now, that has been Australia's long-term position. Australia played a role in the creation of the of Israel under a Labor leader, a former Labor leader, Dr. Ebert, through the UN. And we, of course, I remind people that at that time there were two states considered at that time, not just one. And so I think most Australians want two things. They want people put simply to cease the destructive escalations that have occurred, whether it's actions that have occurred with the extraordinary loss of life in Gaza or Hamas, I think they see as having no role

and they certainly shouldn't have a role in a future Palestinian state. But they also don't want conflict brought here to Australia. We're a long way away. We're not participants. We don't provide any arms to Israel. And we certainly don't provide. Do you think you have a particular problem with anti-Semitism?

It seems to be, it seems to have grown. Any Semitism is real. And there have been appalling examples of it. There's also been appalling examples of Islamophobia. And there have also been our federal police have identified criminal elements, essentially trying to take advantage of this in order to secure some advantage for themselves as well. Where do you stand with them? We've seen Netanyahu go to America, go to Hungary,

had to fly in a very circuitous route because of flying over certain countries that are signatories to the International Criminal Court. Where do you stand on Netanyahu's position in the eyes of international law? Well, we are members of the International Criminal Court, and we think that international law is important, and we'll continue to engage constructively. we weren't participants in some of the legal action that has taken. And I think that Australians want very much for conflict to not be brought here. We are a very successful multicultural nation. One of my pitch at citizenship ceremonies used to be that we're a microcosm for the world

where people of Jewish, Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, Catholic, faith can live side by side in harmony. And that is something that has been a great success story, particularly in the post-World War II period. Melbourne has the largest number of Holocaust survivors outside of Israel, a very large population. And that's been important. And that's why any Semitism and the scourge of it and any increase in it is so disheartening for people to witness.

And certainly for people with relatives in either Israel or in the occupied Palestinian territories, this has been a really tough and difficult time. And part of my job has been to make sure that we do what we can, to make everyone feel welcome, but also to not bring some of those tensions here as well. But it has been a very difficult period. You know, on the issues going forward, I certainly hoped and there's been I've appointed envoys, a special envoy on anti-Semitism and a special envoy on Islamophobia as well who are working with communities.

I've appointed one of my MPs, Peter Carlyle, as the parliamentary special envoy on social inclusion of how do we bring people together rather than look for division. And, Prime Minister, last one from me, you've talked about your faith in this interview, and we're doing this interview on Easter Saturday, Easter Sunday coming. I wonder whether you could talk a little bit about your faith in politics and what you're thinking about as you go into Easter Sunday. Well, I will go to Mass tomorrow morning at Sir Mary's Cathedral, which is where I went to school. I was an older boy there as a...

young man at while I was at school and I think that the social justice values that I was raised with are a part of who I am I think from my perspective then the the message of all of actually the great monotheistic face there's so much commonality which is why the conflict is so disturbing, is about social justice, is about looking after people, is about compassionate kindness. One of the things that I said on election night in 2022, and some of this, as we talked before about strength and defining it, I said on election night that I regarded kindness as something that was an Australian value. And I do. I don't. see that as anything other than strength, the strength to actually say that we've got a responsibility

to reach out to people. And at times like this, it is a time where people will think about those values and what the message is. But for Easter, of course, whether people of Christian faith, it's a particularly important time. But for everyone here in Australia, it is also a time where they'll spend moments with family and friends, and it's an opportunity to step back a little bit as well. My last question, sorry to lower the tone after Rory's attempt to raise it, but when we interviewed Ezra Klein last week, he always ends his interviews by asking people for three book recommendations.

I want to ask you, as a rocker, somebody who's really into rockies, If you were to recommend three pieces of rock music that you would take to your desert island, what would they be? Wow. Only three, Alistair. I'd, you know, I'd abandon food and water to take more. It must be said. Gee, three is pretty hard.

I think there would have to be, I'll narrow it for Australia. one would be Colchizzle one would be Nick Cave and the bad seats who of course is

bigger in the UK than he is in Australia I think and the third would be there is so much amazing there's this whole genre globally

I think but Australia is very much a part of that of women who are really producing some amazing music. So I'll take the opportunity to promote some younger and not so young women coming up. G-flip, Angie McMahon, Sarah Blasco's new album is amazing for something a bit quieter to chill out to on a Sunday afternoon as well. And what will you play on your wedding day? Well, I'm getting married in the second half of the year, of course.

I've been very lucky, very fortunate to meet Jody at this time in my life and someone who we want to spend the rest of our lives together. We have gone through a range of music that, can be played as a wedding song. And I've got to say, Alistair, it will be easier to work through the global geopolitical position than it is to come up with a single song,

I think, at this point in time. We do have slightly different musical tastes. Right, okay, well, if I were you out, let her decide. Anyway, listen, thank you so much for your time. Good luck with the rest of the campaign. It's been really generous of you on a Saturday night in Australia,

the middle of the campaign to spend so much time. Apologies for my French Wi-Fi dropping out at one point. I hope that didn't throw anybody, but it really has been great to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. And enjoy Easter. Thank you.

Happy Easter. Bye-bye. So, Rory, normally at this stage, we would do a discussion as to what we think. But given that was pretty much over an hour, why don't we talk about the Australian election and Albanese and what we thought of the interview as part of the main podcast on Tuesday, which will go out on Wednesday, and this interview will be out in everybody's feed on Monday.

Yeah, people who are keen to get our response and how this all ties in the Australian election, please pick up again on the main pod on Wednesday. See you there.