The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 140. The Next President of France? Gabriel Attal on Macron, Le Pen, and Israel-Iran

Episode Date: June 22, 2025

Why has Macron become so unpopular? Where is the discussion of international law when it comes to the conflict between Israel and Iran? Why can’t the French and the English coordinate to stop the small boats crisis?  Alastair and Rory are joined by former French Prime Minister Gabriel Attal to discuss all this and more.  Sign up to Revolut Business today via: https://get.revolut.com/z4lF/leading, and add money to your account to get a £200 welcome bonus. This offer’s only available until 7th July 2025 and other T&Cs apply. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. Instagram: @restispolitics  Twitter: @RestIsPolitics  Email: [e-mail] Social Producer: Celine Charles  Assistant Producer: Alice Horrell Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Whatever stage your business is at. With Revolut business, you're ready for what's next. Welcome to the rest of this politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. So we're absolutely delighted today to have Gabrielle Atal as our guest, even if there is a risk, he's going to make me feel very, very old. this is a man who is 32 years younger than I am, who already has former Prime Minister on his CV. And what's more, with Emmanuel Macron unable to stand for a third term in 27,

it is certainly within the realms of possibility that Gabriel Atal's name will be on the ballot. He was born in Paris in 1989, which was the year the Berlin War fell, of course, educated at an exclusive private school, then to good degrees at one of three. France's top universities, Seence Poe, and frankly, almost immediately into a life of politics. First, via work experience. Then, age 25, as a counsellor. Age 28, he became a member of the National Assembly, an MP. 29, junior minister. 31, government spokesman, including during the COVID pandemic. And then 34, a senior minister in what we would call the cabinet when he was education Minister, then Prime Minister, France's youngest ever, and also France's first gay Prime Minister.

And then, still at the age of 34, ex-Prime minister, after President Macron called a snap election, much to the shock of everyone, you may remember, or his Stuart's views, but also, frankly, to the shock of Monsieur Attal. Despite that defeat, Macron remains president, and though no longer Prime Minister, Gabriel Atal, remains one of France's most popular. politicians. We're pleased to have him with us today, even if I am in his country, France, and he's in mine, in London, with Rory. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Can we begin by just giving us the sense of your childhood, your father, your mother, your schooling, what kind of young boy you were? I was born in, I have to say, quite a wealthy family,

with loving parents who divorced when I was quite young. And so I was mainly raised by my mother, was a single mother with three children, me and my two sisters. And quite early I began very interested in politics. I felt this urge to commit. And so I followed a pass of commitment first in NGOs and then in politics. Now a friend of yours told me you were very, very into theatre at school, that you acted a lot. Do you think that's something that helps politicians? Do you think you've had that grounding in drama and theatre that's a help? Well, I think it helps dealing with your emotions.

It helps handling stress. So I think it's useful. Actually, I think it's useful not only for politics. And when I was education minister, I had this plan to make theatre lessons, mandatory for every student in schools because I think it is useful to learn

how to express yourself orally. It's useful to learn how to deal with your emotions as I said. So my plan was to make it for everyone. I didn't stay long enough at the education minister to go ahead with it, but maybe someday

I can implement this idea. I'm sort of interested in the style of politics. So you seem to be thoughtful, quiet person. And sometimes we feel that we're in the politics of Donald Trump or Boris Johnson, these kind of big, almost cartoonish figures.

To what extent do you think that this sense of drama, of theatricality, of big speeches is important to the vocation of the politician? I think speeches are important, especially when you have quite long speeches that allow you to explain things and go quite deep in the explanation.

and on certain topics or issues, it's, I think, more important than forever. For instance, for education, I think it's very important to have these long speeches that teachers and families can understand, so they understand where you want to go. But I think we are now in a place where speeches are really not enough

and that I think many people in France are kind of bored by speeches and even by, you know, these big declarations, big words, what they want is more action than words. So you've mentioned twice now about your time as Minister of Education. And I think I'm right that the initial idea was that you might have been Minister for Health, but you absolutely desperately didn't want to do that. You wanted to be Minister of Education.

And something else, when you were Minister of Education, you did a lot of action on bullying. And I just wonder whether that was in part out of personal experience, whether you'd been bullied. Your father once told you that because of your name and because he was Jewish, you would probably suffer anti-Semitism. I wonder if you have. And also I mentioned in introduction you were the first French gay prime minister, whether you've been the subject of homophobic bullying as well. Well, I've been the subject to everything that you mentioned. And I still am, actually, you know, when you're a politician, you get a lot of attacks, especially on the social media. So the fact that I'm gay, the fact that I come from a Jewish family with my father,

I receive a lot of insults. But it's true that education is the most important thing for me. And actually being a ministry of education was my, I would say my favorite job, even more than prime minister. Because first, I think that actually everything relies on education. The education ministry is the ministry for, for economy of tomorrow. It's the Ministry of Culture of Tomorrow. It's the Ministry of Justice of Tomorrow. So if you manage to fix problems in the education systems, I think you manage to

fix a lot of problems on the long term in the society. And also because I'm young, I felt this, I don't know, need to act from my generation and the generations coming. And one of the goals I have in politics is to help every young people to be able to choose their own path. to move up in society, and education is key for that. I'm interested in the anti-Semitism. My own grandfather is Jewish, but married somebody who was Christian. And that's the same for your father, too. And you were brought up, as you say, by your mother, who wasn't Jewish in the Christian faith.

So you're not really Jewish. I mean, so how does, why are you experiencing anti-Semitism when I'm not? What does that suggest about France compared to Britain? It's like Alastair just said. my father always told me even though you're not Jewish because you were brought up in a Christian family with the mother

you will feel Jewish because you will experience anti-Semitism because of your name and that's actually what I lived and what I'm still living but of course there's a strong anti-Semitism in France always has been

and it now has a different form than it used to to be we are now some far left movements in France and politicians that actually have words that encourage anti-Semitism. So I think it's a sad reality we're facing right now and we still have to fight on this issue. And how does that help France navigate positions towards Israel? I noticed that Emmanuel Macron didn't make points about international law or the rules-based order when Israel

attacked Iran. In fact, he came immediately to the defense in a way that would have been unusual probably 10, 15, 20 years ago, where people would have put much more emphasis on UN procedures, on international law. Is there some connection between these things in French politics? I don't think it's connected with anti-semitism. I think President Macron's position, which is a position shared by many other leaders. And I saw that the G7 signed a shared statement supporting the rights of Israel to defend itself. I think it's linked to the situation we are seeing in Iran and the fact that Iran seem to be closer than ever

to the possibility. But you don't believe that, do you? I mean, what intelligence or information do you have? I mean, we've heard this for 30 years. I'm not in the government anymore. All the information we have is that they remain at least 12 months away from a nuclear weapon. I mean, Israel has been put.

pushing to do this for 30 years, particularly Netanyahu. I'm not in the government anymore. And normally we would talk about international law. And Norway talks about international law. But it's France and Germany who are immediately going into a world where they're... I think the G7 countries signed... No, the position of... Some sort of a joint statement.

France is further out in this. Germany is further out. I'm not in the government anymore, so I don't have all the information anymore. But you are instinctively supportive of Israel. I believe the intelligence that were given to the leaders, and especially to President Macron, who make him and others supporting the rights of Israel to intervene in Iran, must be sufficient to stand for this position. And Gaza and international law there?

I mean, do you talk a lot about international law in relation to this? Of course, and you've seen that French position is quite clear regarding what's happening in Gaza. And we've been, actually, France and President Macron's. Macron, denunciating the humanitarian situation in Gaza today. And France is still calling for a ceasefire. And we've been one of the first countries to call for a ceasefire. Remember, President Macron called for a ceasefire quite early before many other Western countries. And we are still advocating for a two-state solution.

So you believe in this? You believe this is possible? Because Macron sounds to me as though he's talking 20 years ago. You know, on the one hand this, on the one hand that, we believe in two-state solution. I mean, it sounds like he's from a different period. It's not as though you're being realistic about the world today. I think the situation is really difficult today, and I was a few weeks or months ago in Israel and in the Palestinian territories. So I met with many people there, and we see that what happened on October 7, what's been happening since, radicalized positions.

on each side. But I think it has to remain the goal because I don't see any other possibility. I don't see any other possibility to make it to peace in this territory. Is it possible or can it happen early or in the coming weeks? Of course not.

There are still Israeli hostages in Gaza. The Hamas is still there. Some countries are not recognizing the rights for Israel to exist. So it's quite kind of impossible today, but I think it has to remain the goal because I don't see any other serious plan or proposals that can make peace happen in the region. Let's go back to Gabriel's time in education, but also things you've been saying more recently. You banned the abyer in French schools and now you want to go further and ban the veil for all girls under the age of 15. That seems to have sparked a bit of criticism, a backlash even within your own party, including from

Beru, your successor is Prime Minister, and if we read between the lines, perhaps from your old boss, Emmanuel Macron, as well. So first of all, what is your thinking? Secondly, do you feel that, for example, the headline I read in Les Ecoe this morning was that you were isolated, so do you feel you're being isolated because of your views? Well, I believe, and I'm a strong advocate for what we call in France laicity, secular reason. The French, view of secularism and laicite in France means that you must give everyone the freedom to to believe and the freedom to live its own religion as they want but what I believe is that when you are young children you are not really free to

live a religion because you are still on the way to learn what religions are and to learn what it means to wear a headscarf or to decide to do something that shows what your beliefs are. And that's why in France since 2004 we have a law that bans all the religious signs in our schools, including crosses, all the religious signs that can be seen. And what we've been seeing over the last years in France is that there's been a push organized to push young girls to wear a bias in order to show a religion

in the schools. So yes, when I became education minister, I decided to ban this clothing in our schools. And I was already that time criticized for this decision. And some people wrote at that time that I was

isolated. And many people said it's impossible to implement. And two years after I don't see any criticisms anymore. And I only see people supporting the decision I met at that time because we managed to solve a problem that was raising, had been raising for years and years.

And was part of your thinking at that time and part of your thinking now that this is one of the ways, one of the things you have to do to take on the populist far right in France who clearly exploit these type of issues? So is that part of the thinking? or is it just about, as you say, France's very, very well-known views about state and faith? You know, when I took this decision, I didn't think of this decision politically or with a political sense.

I believe that this decision was respecting the rules of the Republic, the French Republic. And when you talk to French citizens or when you look at the polls, you see that the importance of secularism, laicite and of these decisions is quite the same. same amongst the left-wing voters, the right-wing voters or the five-right voters. So I don't see it as a political decision. So François-Bairu has said that he worries the new proposal will alienate French Muslims. Why is he wrong? He's wrong because, you know, I don't, I don't do a difference between Muslim people and the others. I do a difference between young people and the others. When you're a child, you must have the right to learn about society, to learn what some signs signify, especially when it comes to women covering hands themselves, before making a

decision. If a free woman in France decides to cover herself and to wear a headscarf or the veil, it's her right. I don't have anything to say about that. But when we are talking about children, And we had, you know, if I took this position and I made this proposal, because we had a very important official study in France showing that we are seeing growing in the many parts of France, children of age five or six wearing a headscarf. And I think the purpose of the Republic and the responsibility of politics is to set some rules when you see things that could be destabilizing

the Republic. Can I ask you about your political journey, as it were? You started out in the socialist party. Would you ever define yourself as a socialist, or maybe a social democrat? And I'm also really interesting, because I knew Macron at the time that he was emerging as this new political force. And I wonder what it was like for you, as a young politician, seeing that, then being part of that, what it felt like to have this new thing, this new political phenomenon emerging. So just talk us through that, how you went from being a member of the Socialist Party to following this macro phenomenon that emerged? Actually, I joined the Socialist Party just after my high school, because it was the party that seemed to be the closest to my beliefs. But whilst I joined

the Socialist Party, I always advocated for, I'm not going to say it in English, but the passement politic, the possibility to build some ties with centrist parties or even center-right parties. But the political offer of Macron didn't exist at that time when I joined the Socialist Party. So, yes, it was under the idea of social democracy. And then Emmanuel Macron created his own party with the idea to make people from center-left, to center rights, work together on common challenges and with proposals built together. And so I immediately joined his party because it was the political offer I was waiting for.

How would I define myself today? First, as a strong pro-European, and it's not really shared in many parties today. Then as a liberal. What do you mean by? liberal. Economically. What type of economic liberalism? You're sort of Washington consensus neoliberal?

No, I believe that if you want to create wealth, if you want to finance a social model, if you want to finance public services, you need to have growth, economic activity. And if you want that, you need to free the companies and to let the companies have the means to create jobs, to innovate, to invest. So sort of Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan type of liberal? No, I wouldn't say that. You know, Tony Blair has been an inspiration for many, even in French politics. So, yes, it's more on that.

So economically, but also regarding society. How would you disagree with Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan with your economics? I think the needed changes in the French public services or in the regulation must be built by working with unions. civilians, civil society, and trying to build the changes and transformations with the ones who represent workers, companies, etc. So I think in the method, there was some sort of a brutality on some decisions that I don't think were actually that's useful to have profound and long-term changes. So to finish just liberal, but also regarding society, the women's rights, gay rights,

and we are passing a bill in the National Assembly right now. I think there's a bill as well in the UK regarding how you end your life when you can't be cured. So I think it's new rights important in a society. And the fourth... Liberal on immigration? No, the fourth, I was coming to that,

is quite firm regarding security and immigration. I think we need immigration. We need immigration for our economy. We need immigration because France has many countries built itself also with immigration. But we need to pilot our immigration. And that's what's very difficult today in France and in many countries. We are not piloting enough our immigration. We have people coming to France who shouldn't come to France.

And we are people that should be. expel from France that we cannot expel. But we also have people coming to France who we want to welcome, but we don't welcome good enough in France. Just quickly, what do you mean there are people that you should expel from France and you can't expel and who's stopping you from expelling them? Actually, the difficulty we have is the countries of origin of these people who do not accept us expelling them. You know, we have been some big difficulties and diplomatic issues with some countries such as Algeria, for instance. We have some people that we should expel from France and we took all the administrative decisions to expel them. But you know, to expel someone to his

country of origin, you need to receive a document from his country of origin, allowing you to expel him. So how will you deal with that? Actually, we've been trying many things. In 2021, I think some decisions were made about visas for the Algerian population. We had visa restrictions on Algeria in order to push for the Algerian governments to cooperate more with the French authorities. It didn't really work. So now there have been some new discussions. I believe that at some point we must put on the line the deals and agreements we have with Algeria regarding

many issues regarding immigration, legal immigration. You know, we have some specific agreements with Algeria because we have a specific history with Algeria, of course. But I think we have to put

these issues on the line in order to put pressure on the Algerian regime. So we get the regime to cooperate more with France in order to take back some citizens that should not stay in France. want to push people back to Algeria, why can't we push people back to France?

I think everyone is doing their best, but we can do better, and on each side. What we are seeing today, first is a human or humanitarian disaster. We can't forget that last year, I think 80 people lost their lives in the channel while trying to cross. So it's a disaster, it's families, it's children, it's terrifying. The problem we have today, I think, is this phenomenon of what we call taxi boats. The difficulty for the French police to apprehend people, to forbid people from going if they go by swimming and then they join a boat. So if we catch them in Britain, we can just push them back to France.

That will be okay with you? I think, first of all, we should authorize the marine, the security on sea to, apprehend people even if they go on a taxi boat and to push them back in France when we are in French waters. And if they get to Britain, what's to stop us just sending them back to you? Then we have agreements that were signed. We have the two key agreements and we have cooperation. So let me go just on what is going wrong. So first, I think we have to look at what's happening with these taxi boats and take the decisions that need to be taken in order to have our police officers being able to intervene more quickly.

And on the second, I think there are also some issues in the UK, on the attractiveness of the UK for migrants. I don't remember if the figure is completely right, but I think it's like 30% of the migrants who cross Europe who want to go to the UK, which has some sort of an attractive system. But if everybody who arrived in the UK from France could immediately be returned to France, they would cease to come. The only reason they come is they don't think they will be returned to France as soon as they arrive. And the reason they can't be returned to France is you don't accept them. If we just, every time someone arrived to come back to France, you would not accept it.

What you are showing is that, and what this question shows with what I mentioned about Algeria and other countries in the EU, shows that it's a global issue that needs to be taken on a European level. That's what we have been trying to do with the new asylum and migration pact in the EU in order to help other European countries, especially the first countries concerned with migration, to be more efficient. But I think there's also this issue of the attractiveness of the UK system for many migrants who just want to cross some European countries and go to the UK. You don't have as many controls of ID here as you have in other countries, but it's because also of the model and I don't completely respect that.

Okay, Monsieur Rattal, Mr. Stewart, short break and back in a minute. Hi there, Rory Stewart here from the rest of this politics. I just wanted to tell you that we have now released the first episode of our miniseries on the real J.D. Vance. Here's a clip. If Donald Trump dropped dead, this guy is automatically president, How he has become what he's become from this background? I'm sitting in the back of this police cruiser.

They've just arrested my mom, the relief of having survived another day. This is a story about something which we don't often talk about in America, which is class. Trump, I think that he's leading the white working class to a very dark place. I'm a never-trump guy. I never liked him. But in the end, the main thing you need to understand about J.D. Gantz is, given the choice between his intellectual statements and power, He chooses power every time. I was wrong about Donald Trump.

We're seeing migrants kidnap our dogs and cats. He needs to prove absolute loyalty. I think the election was stolen from Trump. But there's a bigger story, which is the story about this whole all-right movement. Vance does not exist really without Teal either financially or politically. Because this guy believes that America should be led by a monarch, which of course Trump believes as well. He sees him, frankly, as a future king. because his Vance can tell the story of America.

And in doing so, he crosses the cusp into a whole new vision of the world at the centre of which is not democracy, but the CEO, the authoritarian, the monarch. You can hear episode one right now. Just search the rest is politics wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everybody. It's Dominic Samaruk here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter.

And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise. people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is

really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues. And people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alastair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson, and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in

Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Can we go to your appointment as Prime Minister? How did it feel to be so young and to get that job? And I'll I wonder how did other leaders and other politicians treat you? I can imagine a lot of French politicians thinking, I know quite a lot of French politicians, and I suspect they thought,

this, why I've worked all my life, I've worked for decades, and suddenly this young kid comes out nowhere in his prime minister. So how did that feel for you, and how did you feel you were treated by the political system? Well, first, you know, before me, there was Emmanuel Macron, who arrived very young, and he became president, which is higher than prime minister. So he kind of led the way. And I think he actually made it more easy for young people like me to gain responsibilities in politics. You know, before his election in 2017,

there was only one MP in the French National Assembly under 30 years old. And it was Marion Le Pen, the niece of Marion. Le Pen. The traditional political parties, even on the right or on the left, they never let before young people getting responsibilities in national politics. And I don't say you need only young people in national politics. I just say that young people are a part of the population, so they deserve to be represented as a part of the national politicians. So after Macron's election in 2017, we were 30 under 30 elected in the parliament. And that's actually.

change quite culturally, I think, politics. And today you see young people on important responsibilities in every party. So to answer your question, I never felt like patronized. Patronized or undermined. What about other leaders, other prime ministers and presidents that you had to deal with? Did you find that your youth was an advantage or a disadvantage? I think neither an advantage or a disadvantage, actually. You know, in France, foreign affairs are more handled by the president than the prime minister.

It's what we call the domain reserva. But I met with some counterparts. I met with Justin Trudeau, with Olaf Schultz, with Mark Routte, who was at the time Prime Minister in the Netherlands, with Joe Biden, who are welcomed in Paris for the D-Day commemorations with President Xi Jinping. I never felt that my age was an issue in a sense or another. No one ever mentioned actually my age. And so I think it's quite positive.

Tell us a little bit about Xi Jinping and Biden. What did you notice about them as personalities, their manner, their charisma, their way of talking there? You know, Joe Biden, I welcomed him for the day celebrations, the 80th anniversary in Normandy. And it was such a powerful moment. You had all these European and abroad leaders and allies brought together to commemorate this such important day in our history. And if I'm in London today on this 18th of June, it's because I came to commemorate the important speech of the General de Gaul on the BBC here in London on June the 18th, 1940. It was a very strong moment. it was actually at the end of Joe Biden's term.

Before, actually, he announced that he would not be running, I think a few days or a few week before, but it was at the end of his term. And what was the difference in personality between Biden and Xi Jinping as people to deal with him interpersonally? I welcome them. I had shared a few moments with them. I had more moments with Justin Trudeau, Olaf Schultz and Mark Rout. So, yeah, it's different personalities, but two personalities that were, I think, embodying how powerful where are their countries.

How do you feel that? How do you feel the embodiment of power? It's very difficult to describe or to put words on it. It's something you feel when you shake hands with someone, when you have a discussion with someone. It's more magnetic than something you can completely understand or describe. I mentioned the snap election. So you're there for eight months and then suddenly Macron, President Macron, calls the election. And I have to tell you, I mentioned in the introduction, Rory, who's sitting there with you in the studio now, thought it was the most spectacularly insane thing to do and said so very, very, very loudly. There's quite a famous photograph of you looking rather sort of half skeptical and half angry.

So just tell us what did you? think about that decision? You know, many things were said about this decision and about the fact that I wasn't aware of this decision and that the president told me his decisions a few minutes before telling the French citizens. And so I don't really like commenting again this issue, but of course I was more saddened then angry. And actually not saddened for me as a prime minister

because I offered my resignation to the president immediately when we had the results of the European elections and when he announced that he would call for snap elections, I offered him my resignation, telling him, instead of calling for snap elections, accept my resignation, we lost the European elections. So people will understand that I resign and you appoint another prime minister.

So it wasn't for me staying as a prime minister. It was more for the country. because immediately when I knew that elections were coming, I knew what would happen and that we would have this situation we have today and we face today in the French parliament, which is a parliament completely, I don't know, to... Completely destructuré without any majority, completely... Yeah, unable to do anything. There's no majority you can't do anything, yeah.

There's no majority. and even no relative majority because, you know, in France we have a system where we are used to have absolute majorities for presidents elected. A few times in the history, we had what we call a relative majority, which means your party by itself

doesn't have an absolute majority, but you can have a few MPs from another party to help you or there's no majority to overrule your government. So that happened a few times and that's what actually was the situation while I was Prime Minister. But we never had the situation we have today,

which is even no relative majority. So I kind of foresaw what would be happening, and I was saddened by that, but I decided to campaign. I hesitated, I have to say, for 24 hours. I thought of leaving office and living politics, but I thought that... You thought of leaving politics.

Yeah, of course. Many things crossed my mind because it was so, I don't know, it was so shocking, so unexpected. And the way the decision was built also without me being aware of it. And I was the prime minister from the president's party. It was completely understandable for me. But it lasted 24 hours. And then I thought, if I'm not completely. campaigning, if I'm resigning, how will my MPs from my party campaign?

How will them be able to convince voters that we have a chance on these elections? So I decided to run again to campaign. Everyone, I say everyone in every newspapers at the beginning of the campaign were writing and saying that Marine Le Pen, the far-right party Rassamplement National would have an absolute majority. Everyone, every polls indicated that they would have

an absolute majority. And we campaigned me with my candidates for three weeks and in the end, even though we did not win this election, because I would be Prime Minister still, even though we did not win these elections, the far rights

didn't win these elections. And they actually have less MPs than we have. So this is an amazing moment of opportunity, I think. The US is retreating from the world. So you could imagine a Europe that really created entirely new structures, maybe sort about integrating in an outer circle, the UK, Norway, Turkey, single market membership for Serbia and the Western Balkans,

reconceptualizing almost everything, right? Is that your vision? How ambitious would you be on these sort of things? As you said, I think we have this huge momentum. I think the EU is losing its naivness on many issues, on our sovereignty, our independence, our industry, our ability to work closer together and to invest together on defense, on innovation, AI, etc. I think we can see the end of this naivness with the decisions that are being taken by the European Commission

on the deregulation issues in order to lower some regulations that were taken over the last years or decades which don't allow our companies to invest or innovate as they should. I think we are seeing some important reforms on the EU level, such as the new pact for asylum and the migrations.

And the new commission has plans in order to do better. And we also have this, the planets aligned because it's our vision and our line in France with the president and it's also the new German Chancellor's idea, I think, to do more on the European level. But I also think that we must have this al-a-carte, as you say in French, the possibility on some issues or some topics

to work not with all the members of the EU, but sometimes with countries which are not EU members and what we are seeing today on defense, on the support to Ukraine with the coalition of volunteers that Emmanuel Macron with Prime Minister Starmour and others and Norway was in it, I think it's an interesting idea to go further on some issues. But I still think that the EU has,

a future. And actually, I think that if we want to be stronger, if we want to be able to compete with the US and with China on industry, on innovation, on AI, if we don't want to become the holiday resort or the retirement house for the world, an American or Chinese colony on innovation, we must act on a European level. And we need the EU for that. And maybe you need more than the I mean, I'm wondering, you're talking al-a-carte, but I'm wondering whether you couldn't think about a much more exciting structural solution for the non-European, non-EU members of Europe. It's a time where we have to build bridges and strengthen our ties with countries that share our values. We saw, when we see what's happening in the U.S., we see the very aggressive economy policy that China has, we see the huge threats on our security on the continent, not with Russia.

So we need to move closer together, even with countries which are not EU members. And I think the renewed path we have with the UK today, the partnership that was signed in May, and I think more will be coming with the president's state visit in a few days now or weeks, I think it's a good sign. Even though I have to say it and I have to tell it, my dream is that my generation will be the one that see the UK rejoining the EU. That would be for me a dream and I think it's possible. Well, see, Gamriel, let me ask you this about President Macron. First of all, how would you describe your relationship with him? Have you forgiven him for what he did in calling the SNAP election?

Secondly, as I said, do you think Macronism dies when he is no longer president or is there a deeper political philosophy. And I'd also like to just ask you straight out whether you expect and hope to be a candidate as in the presidential elections. Well, first, my relation, I'm loyal to Emmanuel Macron. It's thanks to him that I was able to commit in politics nationally. Without him, I wouldn't have become an MP. I wouldn't have joined the government. And I wouldn't have been prime minister. So I'm completely aware of that. And I also see that we made in France, thanks to him, very important things. Economically, we finally had a policy regarding taxations

and competitiveness for our companies. We never saw in France before. We had some transformations on the labor market, the retirement pension system. That was very important. So I'm loyal, but I'm free as well. I'm not prime minister anymore. I'm now the leader of my party.

And so now I'm also preparing for the future. The second question you had was what we call Macronism. I think that's what was opened in the French political system with Macron's election is, first, a method, the idea of having people coming from the left, from the right, from the center, from everywhere, working together on. common issues and with common values. It's quite new in French politics, and I think it will last. I think that's what a majority of French people are waiting for. And I think what we had before, which was this system with the left-wing party and the right-wing party competing, even though on some issues they were agreeing, but they couldn't

say it. And when the right-wing party comes in power, it has to cancel what the left-wing party did when they were in power because it was the left-wing... left wing party who did it, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think people are waiting in France for this to come back. So first, a method, and I think it will stay. I will try and I will advocate for this method to be continued in French politics

and at the higher level if it's possible. And second, it's the ideas. You don't have today in the French politics another party which is pro-European, liberal, firm on security, immigration, justice, and concerned by the environment and ecology. You don't have other parties with these ideas. And I think that you can convince a majority of French people with these main values and goals. Why has Macron become so unpopular?

He strikes me as a very exceptional thinker and actor and political. operative and yet he does seem to be very, I'm in France at the moment, as you know, and it's very hard to get people to speak up for him. And is that not a real danger for you if you are the candidate in the next election? Because although you're saying that you're different, in a sense, you're saying sort of the same things. We've got to hold the centre together. Well, I think we have different personalities. We are not clones. And I think on some issues, Well, I might be more concerned or maybe more radical on some issues than he used to be when he was campaigning in 2017 and after, especially on the security and justice issues. I've been pushing for being stronger on these issues with kind of radical proposals.

Maybe on other issues also, I will show that we are different and I think it's sane that we are not all the same in politics. Then on popularity, he's been in office since eight years, which is very long. He's the first president to be reelected while having a majority. You had French presidents reelected before. But they were reelected after not having the power in the government and in the parliament because there was the cohabitation. So it's very long. And we had some crisis.

We had the COVID. We had the jillet-june crisis, which happened. just after he was elected president, but it was actually the fault of years and years of wrong decisions on some issues. So that would be my explanation. And you know, in France, I think in the opinion, in the end, when people are mad on some decisions or they blame the president. Because it's the only one they all elect directly.

The prime minister is not elected directly by the French citizens. Okay, my final question then is this. Let's say that you do become the candidate. And let's say that Marine Le Pen is finished because of the legal case. And Jordan Bardella, another young guy becomes the candidate for the far right. What's your best thought about how you tackle this populism that seems to be so powerful across European politics right now, how do you go head to head against Badella and win?

I think what we need is to be able to create a new hope for a French citizen. I think the main failure of my party and of us over the last years is that we became a party that was more against the extremes and the populist than a party for a project and a vision that was able to gather people. together around a project. So my main goal and my main work and activity right now is to completely rebuild our party beginning by the ideas. We've been working very hard with elected officials, with experts, with French citizens

on our program. We just released three weeks ago our program on security immigration. We'll be releasing in two weeks our program on the economy and the support workers. And I think it's with new ideas and ideas on topics that people are waiting for us to act that will be able to convince them. And you know the difficulty we have in France and I think it's different than what we're seeing in other European countries where we see far right populist movements rising is that the Rassembleman National in France has been rising by completely changing their speech. The program is still the same. But for instance, in 2017, the Rassemblement National,

Front National at that time, was advocating for the Brexit. I think they understand and they feel that a majority of French people are pro-European, especially with what we're seeing in the world today. And so they completely change their speech. Now they're saying, we don't want to leave the EU. But when you look at their program, there's not a single proposal that can be. be placed or that can be implemented within the EU. So it's actually more difficult than it was before to attack populism when they have a completely different speech, which is not what you can find in their program. But I think before looking at them and talking about them, we have to talk about ourselves.

We have to be quite blunt about what we failed. And we failed some things, especially on security issues, migration issues. and we have to talk about the positive program we want for the country. I think what French citizens of French people want is kind of basic. They want to be able to know that next year they will earn more thanks to their work and so they will because they will progress in their work. And they want their children to have a better life than they have. It's quite, actually, it's a quite simple expectation.

And behind that you have education. So I would push for way more reforms and investments in our education system. And you have labor or working issues, how you get more money from your work, and especially more money from working than from non-working. How do we answer to this question, which is very important, especially in the young generations, which is the conciliation between, personal life and working life.

Work-life balance, yeah. Exactly. I think these are issues that are not really the issues that political parties focus on today, but there are issues which are so important in the minds of our citizens. So I'll try to convince them that we have the responses. Well, thank you. You've given us a lot of time.

Be very patient. You're on your way to see Tony Blair. So we're very grateful that you gave us the time. Thank you. invitation and I hope my English was okay. I'm not used to speak in English. Your English was fantastic. We don't want to say your English is better than Alice's French, but I suspect it may even be. We never get to test it properly.

I would have could do it in French, without, no problem. I'm just, I'm going to invite her to Paris for doing a podcast with me in French. Ah, super. Gabriel, thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to see you. Merci. Take care.

So, Alas, Gabriel Atal, amazing. I mean, we talk about him a lot. very young, very glamorous. We didn't mention one of the things he was most famous for internationally, of course, which is that he appointed his former husband as his foreign minister when he became president. I don't think, as he said, Rory, foreign policy is the domain of the president. So the president appointed his former husband as the foreign minister and the prime minister's cabinet. Does the president appoint the entire cabinet? No, I think the prime minister presents the government, but I don't think the prime minister would put into the foreign. and minister's position somebody that wasn't going to get on with the president.

Gotcha. But you were getting a bit sparky, though. I mean, you... Yeah, I was getting it. I was getting a bit sparky because under the surface, I'm a bit worried that this is somebody who came from the left. And he keeps talking about security and immigration, security and immigration. And that's the first paper he's published.

And I think you're on the money when you say that a lot of this is about trying to outflank the populist right. I'm particularly sad about this question about the rules-based international order. I think we're at a time when the biggest opportunity for Europe is to become the champion for international values. I think it's profoundly disappointing that for him's security basically means might as right. We saw very, very little sign of... Listen, you've got to understand just a few things in his defence. The first thing is that he was Prime Minister, he said himself that he's broadly loyal to Macron, but he said quite a lot of critical things on the domestic agenda. Foreign policy is not his domain. And

if he'd have said to us, yeah, you're absolutely right. France and Germany and Britain, they should have been calling this out. That would have been big news in France in a way that would have been... But he did, he had an opportunity maybe later without talking explicitly about what's been happening in the Middle East to talk about rules-based international order. international values when he was describing that vision at the end for Europe. Yeah, possibly. Yeah, he could have done that. I'm not getting much of a sense of values, and I'm a little troubled by some of this anti-immigration stuff. I mean, there was also something, well, I think two things troubled me. First, I think

there's a bit of, obviously, hypocrisy that I was needling at a bit there, which is that he's all for pushing people back to Algeria, but he's not going to say that people who land in Britain from France can come back to France. That's not something he's signing up for. And the second thing is that I'm a bit worried that actually this is a dangerous path because in fact, some of these policies in the two main things he's talking about, security immigration on the one hand and economics on the other, I wasn't sure what the content really was there. I mean, when I said, you know, what are you actually going to do to deal with this? He said, well, you know, we tried this with Algeria and it didn't quite work. I'm going to try that. It didn't really feel to me as though this is somebody with a very clear plan on how that. they're going to get that done. More like he's going to talk it up. And then Jordan Badella,

the far right, will go into that election saying, if you're serious about dealing with immigration, are you going to vote for this guy or are you going to vote for us? Just to push back a little bit on that. So you've said many, many, many times on the podcast that any European party right now that is not very, very clear about the strong borders, protecting our country, being firm on immigration, whilst at the same time, as he did, welcoming people that the economy needs, that they're in real trouble. And I think there is a part of him that is sitting there in quite a difficult, it's a very strange position that he's in, because as he was saying, he's essentially leader of the party, but not part of the government, and he's clearly a presidential, you know,

he's thinking of himself in terms of a possible presidential candidature. So it's quite a difficult balancing act, I think, there, not to be constantly... You know, the French papers today, for example, I refer to them briefly there, were... You know, there were quite a few stories about Beiru having a pop at him over this veil thing. Macron wishing he hadn't done something, whatever. So, you know, he's, I think, in quite a difficult position.

The other thing I was saying in his defence is that although he's English, as you said, is very, very good, I think it is sometimes harder. So, for example, there were a few phrases which I saw you sort of balking out a little bit, but I think actually that was slightly lost in translation. But no, I know what you mean. I think he's somebody who's worked out, or is working out, having had this incredible rise through politics,

prime minister so young, ex-prime minister so young, very popular in the polls in France, clearly could be a candidate. And he's working out the sort of pillars of his own strategy. One of them is going to be security. One of them is going to be hope. One of them is going to be, you know,

a more modern economic, policy. And where I think he's right, Roy, is when he said at the end, I was trying to push him on this, how would you tackle Bardella? And I think he's right that before getting into that, work out what, why, as he didn't want to really answer the question about why Macron's become so popular. He just said it's because he's been there a long time. There's something deeper going on, which he and this party have to work out pretty quickly. Yeah. Well, I think they really do, because there's so much of him, which I think listeners will pick up as being a sort of mini-macron. It's not that easy to see what the difference is. I mean, they're both very smart,

young people who seem to be from relatively elite tone and culture in the way they conduct themselves. And it's not that easy to see what the difference is. So if Macron's catastrophically unpopular, can you really present someone like that as a change candidate at the end of eight years as the presidency? And that leads me on my other thing. All right, if I was going to, and let's, we can, I think disagree about this too. If he runs and is defeated, my guess is the reason he'll be defeated is that there aren't really any ideas there. And people won't really sense that anything's really happening. I mean, what are the ideas? He's a bit tougher on immigration. He's a bit more restrictive on the veil than Macron. On economics, I mean, there isn't a liberal

economic vision there, really. And when you push him, basically he's saying, yeah, he's a sort of Reagan Thatcherite, but he wants to do it in a more consultative way, including the unions and the conversation. That doesn't really sound like somebody who's going to make voters think, this guy is really going to sort out the French economy, has a kind of radical vision. So that's what will worry me. He'll go into the election. He'll be charming, he'll be nice. He's a very nice guy. I mean, I love the lovely smile. He's very, you know, he doesn't get flustered. But in this age, taking on populism, has he really got the ideas, the edge, the energy to...

I think it being quite harsh because you're underestimating the difficulty of the political position he uniquely is in right now. Combining this sense of loyalty to the guy who, as he said, gave him his career, the party that he's still a leading figure in,

and this sort of very complicated landscape of who will eventually emerge as the on the ballot for the presidential candidature, because it might not be him, by the way. There's all sorts of others who will be in the same space and trying to be the not Macron but centrist candidate. And I think what you were seeing, I could be wrong,

but my sense and knowing him a bit and his people a bit, I think what he's trying to do is the election is not until 2027. We've got two years to put together a program that as you say has to be radical, has to be innovative, has to be different to Macron. without being too distancing of some of those principles that he talked about at the end. And we'll see.

Two years are quite a long time. It is interesting that despite having lost that election, despite the closeness to Macron, perceived closeness to Macron, he is still very, very, he's doing well in the polls in a way that Macron is not. So, you know, maybe the French have a slightly different view. I'm maybe over-influenced by this.

Tell me again why the analogy with Kamala Harris doesn't quite work, because I'm slightly worried the, it feels a bit Kamala Harris, which is that he's coming in as somebody who's been, as it were, the vice president or the kind of second most senior person in government. And he's reluctant to criticize his former boss in a way that Kamala Harris was reluctant to criticize Biden. And his message is basically in the end, what people care about is cost the living and their lives being better this year the next year. We got a lot of that from the Democrats in the election. And what Trump kind of proved is that certainly in America, you're not really in that kind of politics anymore. It's not enough to have a kind of nice

technocratic explanation of how you're going to be able to improve living standards if everybody does the right thing. And if we get a little bit of work-life balance here, and I mean, it sounded quite kind of Cameroon. So you've called him Thatcher, Reagan, Cameroon. I think he is a lot closer to the whole sort of third way Blairism. But, you know, again, you might say... But again, whether it's third way blarism, kind of so long time ago, right? That's a different age.

That's also harder to distance yourself from Macron. But the other thing that maybe he's thinking, because, I mean, I do find it genuinely interesting as a political historical phenomenon, that Macron, who emerged in the way that he did with this kind of incredible excitement and this sort of real sense of big, vision and so forth. And as Gabriel said, one another, one of the second election, but now seems

to be so unpopular. So I think maybe the difference that he's trying to put into place, he's thought about being different personalities. It's actually that it is going to be for him less of the vision thing, more of the, you know, here are the pillars of my program, here is how I'm going to do it. Now, you could argue that was technocratic, but a lot of that depends on how you then project that. So he's running really as Kirstama? No, I don't think he's running as Kirstama. He's running, that's your definition of kids. Anyway, I'm a bit troubled that you sort of have taken so again him, because I think he's got a lot more to him than you give him credit for.

I think I came in with two high expectations. I mean, he's got this incredible reputation as being the greatest political communicator in France. People refer to him as the word sniper, master of political communication. So I really thought, I'm going to be meeting one of the most sort of charismatic, extraordinary political communicators. what I felt was, yeah, he was a bright, nice, quite charming, technocratic guy. But there's not great sense of humor when I give him a massive softball on world leaders,

something to say about Biden, something to say about Xi Jinping. Or maybe, you know, I can't tell you something about Biden, but here's a joke about Olaf Schultz, something to sort of bring these people alive. He doesn't take it. Can I just say, Roy, as a fellow interviewer on these podcasts, It's always a mistake to go into interviews with what you want them to say. The question is, is what he says of any interest. What I took from that was actually, if I'm too sort of, you know,

oh, my friend Joe, my friend J. Jing Ping on this, I'm going to look kind of slightly arrogant and playing above my station, as it were. So I thought I saw a bit of modesty in that. You don't think a more confident politician would have been able to provide one funny or cute anecdote about one world leader. Possibly, but maybe easier in your mother tongue. You think of as an interview in France. Do I mean, do you agree that he is a master of public political communication, a word sniper?

I think within the French system, he does very, very well in his communication. And are they looking for something a bit different from what an Anglo-American communication style is? Is it a cultural thing? I thought when Macron came along that what they were looking for was a sort of anglo-sphoric type of, and I think they are looking for something different. In the end, although he gave us a lot of time, we sort of ran out of time in a way. Because one of the other thing I wanted to talk about was actually whether, because of the nature of French people, whether France is almost ungovernable, because the French are so difficult.

We need to check on the bookmakers because I don't know where he's standing in the sort of rankings at the moment. You've got all these other names, you've got Eduard Philippe. I mean, people still talk about Barnier, you've got Gluckman, You've got different people in this, operating in this sphere. And he's, I think he's reasonably well-placed, but not home and dry. So maybe he's being a bit cautious. I guess where I'm with you, it would have been, I felt towards the end, I felt the beginnings of the big programme coming together.

And then not quite there. That's where I might go with you. But I still think you're being very, very harsh. I think you're jealous because he became prime minister at his 30s. That's true. It's pure, pure envy. I actually am the middle-aged patronising politician feeling threatened by this young genius. You are.

No, that's right. That's what was happening. You're completely right. In fact, there was he saying, I've never experienced anyone, you know, being thrown off by my youth. And he was sitting right next to some chippy, bitter, insecure, middle-aged politician having a go at him. Yeah, well, I'll text a bit of a minute for his, what do you think of Rory then? I see what he says. I'll let you know.

Very good. All right. See you soon. Thank you again. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.