The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 141. The President of Cyprus: Iran, Israel, and the Cyprus Issue (Nikos Christodoulides)

Episode Date: June 29, 2025

What role does Cyprus play in the Middle East conflicts? How can Europe and the United Kingdom strengthen their relations during this tumultuous time? How can governments fight corruption? Rory and Alastair are joined by Nikos Christodoulides, the President of Cyprus, to discuss all this and more. The Rest Is Politics Plus: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to Question Time episodes to live show tickets, ad-free listening for both TRIP and Leading, our exclusive newsletter, discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Join today or enjoy a free trial at ⁠therestispolitics.com⁠⁠. Sign up to Revolut Business today via: https://get.revolut.com/z4lF/leading, and add money to your account to get a £200 welcome bonus. This offer’s only available until 7th July 2025 and other T&Cs apply. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [e-mail] Social Producer: Harry Balden Video Editor: Josh Smith Assistant Producers: Alice Horrell Producers: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to the rest of this politics leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair, and I am delighted to be here in Nicosia, the capital of Cyprus, with the country's president, Nikos Christodoulides. Excellent. Is that okay? Yes. This former British colony, Independence is 1960. Mediterranean Island situated right at the crossroads of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. And I'm just thinking we've got Greece to the northwest, we've got Turkey above, we've got Syria and Lebanon there,

then you've got Israel and Gaza, and you've got Egypt to the south. A lot of the issues that Roy and I talk about on this podcast, war and peace, climate, migration, swirling geopolitics, changing nature of alliances, these are all things that the President has to deal with. And literally, just before we met, just to put this in the time context for people, two quite big developments. First of all, a British man arrested on charging of spying for Iran at one of the two British bases that are situated here, and of course the United States dropping their famed bunker busters. Briefly, your background, former diplomat, former foreign minister with a PhD in political science,

and rose to the presidency, you'll be interesting in this, Rory, because it's what you really would fancy doing, by leaving your party, running as an independent, and becoming president two years ago, and soon taking over the presidency of the European Union. So thank you for having us here. Rory's in London. I'm here in Cyprus. And I think we should, can we start with what's actually happening in the European Union? the world right now and what's happening in the Middle East. And first of all, I guess, just ask you

this, how scared do you think the world should be of what's happening right now? First of all, let me welcome you to Nicosia, the last divided capital of the world. Let me welcome you to the presidential palace, which used to be the house of the British governor until 1960. Let me welcome you in a region that is mainly known. for its problems and its challenges. Being in the region, I don't fully agree with this narrative because I really believe that this region has unique potential if we work together.

This is something that we're trying to do through our foreign policy and the fact that we have excellent relations with all of our neighbours. All of them? All of them except Turkey. And if it is possible, we want to have also with Turkey, we cannot change geography, I cannot move Cyprus being a neighbor of Switzerland, and I don't want, I mean,

whether conditions are not so advantageous to be there. But I really believe that we are living in a new international order. We had the collapse of Cold War, a new era started immediately after. But now we're living in a world with a lot of strong powers, middle powers, in other countries, including Cyprus, small countries. And the biggest challenge that we are facing,

both today in the Middle East but also in Ukraine, is the fact that if we don't solve the problems through diplomatic means, my biggest concern, and especially in this region, and we witness this also in the past, is the fact that a vacuum will be created. and we will see the development of non-state actors, of Malayan actors, that will try to play a leading role in our neighborhood.

And this is very, very dangerous. And that is why, from the very beginning, another one in any way to exaggerate the role that Cyprus can play. But as I told you, we have expectations with all neighboring countries, and we're trying to mediate to play a role, to ask all of them to sit around the same table and start discussing. It wasn't easy at the beginning, but we said, what is the motto, agreeing, disagreeing, what is the what is the, what do you agree, disagreeing, okay, something like that. We said, let's put aside

the difficult political issues, let's put aside the security issues, the security differences that all of us will have, and let's start. discussing on so-called, because I don't consider them, the so-called low-politics issue, and try to work together, like climate. Is it possible for Cyprus to face climate change without working with Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and the countries of the region? No. And Turkey. And Turkey, including Turkey. So let's start discussing on a positive agenda, on those issues that we don't have an alternative than to work together. And we did it. This is a great way in. And of course, we're talking at a moment just after the US strikes on Iran.

And what strikes me as strange about it is that if we were having this conversation 15, 20 years ago, we would assume at the beginning of your career as a Cypriot diplomat that people would be going to the United Nations, that the United Nations would have been at the center of this discussion. People would have been talking about international law, they would have been discussing at the Security Council, they would have been talking at the General Assembly. that's not happening. Instead, the United States launched its attack on Iran with no consultation with the UN and no procedural consultation with its allies. What does this suggest? I mean, how do we rebuild the UN for middle countries like UN in a world in which great powers are simply ignoring it? That's why I start by saying that we're living in a new international order.

And do you think that order is now, it's fixed? There's no going back. The UN, it was a product of following World War II. So today we have a new. international order. And of course we need the UN, but we need also to touch on difficult political issues with regard to the UN in order the UN to continue to have a role. For example, Security Council, permanent members, the five permanent members that we have today represent today's reality. Is it possible India, for example, not to be part of, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council? Where is the European Union? Where is Brazil? So would you, would you kick Britain and France off there?

No, not at all, especially. I mean, both of them, they should be there for a number of reasons that we can discuss later, especially with the UK, because for Cyprus, there is this special link between the UK. But what I'm trying to say is that we have a new international order. What we are seeing today,

it's very important, the transition from the old international order to the new one, to be smooth. Otherwise, we're going to, to have all those non-state actos, Malayan actos, that will play the leading role. But if you take the five now, Russia, China, and now America, it strikes me a, are acting without virtually no regard to the United Nations. They're all doing their own thing. Yeah, and this is very dangerous. Yeah. Very, very dangerous. And especially for small countries.

But look out just in the last few days how few leaders have even called it out. because they're so scared of the big powers. So how do you, small country, but a European Union member, how do you actually confront that? What we're trying to do as a small EU member state, but at the same time part of the region, is to send a message to everybody that these differences, the problems that we have cannot be solved through military means.

The easiest head. And we're trying to show it in action. Even before the world, that's why I told you, before and that was our message to the region that if we were together in those low politics issue and all of us we see the benefit out of this cooperation it will be much more easier to discuss also difficult political issues and there are certain issues that need to be solved before in order to reach that stage I'll give you an example I'm sure both of you know very well the Abraham Accords great success in the region Israel UAE the United States

it didn't last. Why? Because a Palestinian issue is there and it will continue to poison, I'm talking about our region, everything that can be positively developed in this region. Even now with Iran and Israel, those non-state actors that I mentioned before, they will use this situation, they will use the Palestinian issue in order to create this very dangerous situation in our region. So we need, and this is something also positive for the UK, if I can mention it now, we're very glad that we see the UK back in the region, not in a colonial approach. I'm not talking about a colonial approach. I'm talking, working together with the region.

Our region has a lot of problems, has a lot of challenges. But at the same time, as I told you, there are a lot of promises. And the changes that they need to take place in our region, the countries of the region, they need to have the ownership of the change, not try to impose. And to tell you the truth, it was difficult for us and the European Union. I can talk also on behalf of the European Union, following Brexit, the fact that the UK, sorry, it was absent from the international developments. Just for a second before we get on to the UK, there is this vacuum. There is an amazing opportunity for the European Union to stand up for the old rules-based international order, to stand up for the interests of smaller countries.

But we're not really seeing it. If you look around the world, it looks as though medium-sized powers like Turkey are able to transform the situation in Syria, transform the situation in Armenia, UAE is able to have a big foreign policy in Sudan and Somalia. Where is the European Union? You have one of the largest economies in the world. What's happening? Thank you very, very much for your question.

You very correctly describe the situation with the European Union. We are absent from the region. And that is why during our presidency that starts on January 1st, 2026, is to bring the European Union closer to the region. And that is why, to give you also something which is not known, on April 23rd, we are planning to organize in Cyprus, a meeting of the 27 leaders of the European Union with all the leaders of the countries in the region in Cyprus. And we are working not just to have a very nice declaration, to have substantial. So just tell us which countries they will be? All the countries of the Gulf, also India and also our neighbours here. Jordan, Egypt.

If Turkey wants to come, we're more than happy to host also the Turkish president. As I told you, we cannot change geography. But it's interesting how you put Turkey at the end of that. Would you want Turkey to be there? Of course I want Turkey to be here. And have you asked them to be there? Of course we can ask Turkey to be here. This administration also change its approach towards Turkey.

For example, we're in favor of having substantial progress on the EU-Turkey relationship. I told you, we cannot change geography. I prefer to have a neighbor that is close to European Union instead of a neighbor that follows other dangerous path. So, in our argument, I will finish with the European Union, in Brussels, and I'm going on Wednesday, and the issue of the Middle East is also in our agenda, and I have some talks with my colleagues before going there, is that if we want to have a geopolitical European Union, you need to be at the same time to be in a position to deal with Ukraine, but also with the Middle East.

I fully understand the importance of Ukraine, the security issues of Ukraine. But if we cannot have also a role in this region which at the end of the day said the neighborhood of the European Union, we should not aspire a geopolitical role. And something else, the third point, and I finish with the European Union. We are in a process of changing as a European Union. International, we are changing because of international developments. It's a European Union, we were fully dependent on our security on the United States, fully dependent on energy from Russia, and fully dependent on raw materials from China.

How can we be in geopolitical European Union with a strong role in today's way? Just to go back to Rory's point, though, would you be prepared to say that there is at least a question about the legality of what the United States have done? Would you be able to say that you think the International Criminal Court of Justice is right to indict Putin over Ukraine? And would you say that there is at least a question over the legality of what Israel, some of what Israel has been doing in relation to Gaza? But my question to your three question is all of us, we have the same understanding of legality, international legality today? No. But that gives us everybody a free pass.

I'll give you an example. No, unfortunately, that's why we're going to a different path. Let's discuss Ukraine. We have the Russian invasion in Ukraine, right? And the international community, very correctly, is criticizing Russia. Why we don't the same criticism from what Turkey is doing to Cyprus? Because the international law at the end of the day is interpreted based on the power of the country that is interpreting the international law.

Unfortunately, what is a difference between... With respect, you've very cleverly avoided saying anything about America or about Israel. I'm not avoiding, and I don't have the... It's a small country. I'll answer to a small country. My biggest and strongest tool is international law. I don't have an army to impose to Turkey to leave Cyprus. So you should be loudly defending international law? Of course.

And that is why we have excellent. relations with Israel. Israel is our closest ally in the region, but at the same time, we recognize Palestine. At the same time, we are in favor of the two-state solution, because a one-state solution cannot be a solution in the Palestine issue for small countries. I mean, international law is a kind of a safety net, but I'm not the one, and it's not my country that is interpreting Trump and Iran. Interpreting international law. Why is it? I notice with smaller countries, and maybe this is an unfair question,

that people are very comfortable criticizing Iran, but very reluctant to criticize the United States or Israel. Why is this? I mean, it's not that small countries don't criticize anybody, just small countries are selective in who they criticize when it comes to international law. Is that right? So you want me to criticize. Okay, I'll criticize all of them.

I don't have any problem. Test of all. case that Iran has a capability for nuclear weapons, my country is in danger also. We are 30 minutes away from Israel. So you can imagine what is going to happen in Cyprus. At the same time, those that they intervene from far away, they need to take other consideration of the consequences from the countries of the region. So of course I can't criticize. But when you are in politics, the easiest thing to do is to criticize. The most difficult is to find solutions. And we are here. and we have responsibility towards our people to find solutions.

But on your point about, and listen, Rory and I talk about this all the time, wouldn't it be great if people could work together more constructively, operate according to principles and so forth? And here you're saying you want to play a role in bringing countries together and solving problems together. And yet right on your doorstep, you have a problem which appears to be insurmountable. So isn't there a danger that people say, well, yeah, great. Put yourself forward as the great negotiator, the great reconcilator and so forth,

but you can't even resolve this issue on your doorstep. How does it ever get resolved? We are trying. We're supporting the efforts of the international community. We're trying our best, but in order to solve the problem in our region. Unfortunately, it's not going to be solved based on international law. Politics. Power politics and the incentives to the countries that are involved in order to see the benefit out of a political solution and not a military solution. I'm not expecting and I'm not naive. I'm coming again to Cyprus. That Turkey will recognize the legality of the invasion, of the occupation. He'll say, oh, sorry, we violated the human rights in Cyprus and we are living Cyprus and we apologize. Unfortunately, we are living in an

anarchic world. Turkey will solve the Cyprus problem only if the benefits out of the solution are much more important that the benefits that Turkey is getting from the current situation. The same with Iran and Israel. Only if they see the benefits out of the political solution in this case. Can we control, for example, to be specific that Iran will not have nuclear capabilities? If we can safeguard this, it means that Israel doesn't have. to worry. At the same time for Iran to do it, some things will take place in Iran. Mr. President, one of the things that I guess must be frustrating for you is outsiders talking about the situation in Cyprus without understanding it. And a very common analogy

is people will say, what are the lessons, for example, from Northern Ireland? Can you explain for an international audience what is unique about Cyprus and why, for example, the lessons from Northern Ireland cannot be applied very well in Cyprus. The uniqueness about Cyprus, it is a geographical position. We are a predictable, reliable country in a region of great geopolitical importance, and you can see with the development, but also a lot of other factors. We are a member state of the European Union, and at the same time we are part of the European Union.

We can have some lessons from Northern Ireland, but it is an indifferent situation in cybers. In order, and I really believe this, because my alternatives to sit here and say about international law, human rights, etc., which I don't, I mean, I fully understand how important are, but because we're living in this anarchical, we need to find the ways for the countries to see the incentives by working together. I know that it's not easy.

I'll give you the example with the Syrian regime. We start lifting the sanctions in a step-by-step approach. If they deliver, we'll deliver. But the problem with the Cypriot issue, it seems to me in the previous negotiations, is that the methodology has been very different to that. The methodology has been until everything is resolved, nothing is resolved, and so there's no possibility of doing a step-by-step process. And therefore, it strikes me that,

I don't get any sense of how this gets resolved in the way that you're describing you want to resolve other difficult international issues. It feels completely intractable. This is one of the basic principle of the inquisition is that nothing is agreed until everything. But maybe that should be changed. It's agreed as you mentioned. But since 2004 in Cyprus, we have a new factor that it changes everything. Europe.

Exactly. The whole of Ireland joined the Euro. European Union, but the implementation of the Akegee was suspended in the areas not under the effective control of the Republic of Cyprus. I was part of the last negotiating process in 2017 that we came very close to the solution of the Cyprus. Did you really want that to succeed? Of course, because the current status is very dangerous.

You know, there are no frozen conflict. But you have the best. There are no frozen conflict. The situation might change in one day. Look what happened in Gaza, for example, or in Ukraine. My country cannot reach its full potential without the solution of the Cyprus problem. It's not easy for Cyprus to face Turkey on all international foreign. Think of Cyprus having access to the Turkish market.

You know that the ships are bearing the Cypriot flag cannot reach the Turkish ports. Imagine all those positive developments through the solution of the Cyprus problem. And a lot of other benefits for Turkey. I mean, we can reach a win-win situation. But going to the European Union, most of the issues that we're discussing at the table of the negotiations, the solutions are in the European Union, are in the European membership union. The best safety for both Greek Cyprus and Turkey Cyprus is being member of the European Union. Can you just, again, for international listeners, explain how your citizens view the situation

in North Cyprus and then also do something which is also more difficult, which is to try to sympathize with the way that some of the population, some of the Turkish population in North Cyprus view the situation and how that act of imaginative empathy of understanding the other situation can help you towards a solution. Come on, you're a diplomat, you can do this. First of all, Turkey, Sybriots and Greek Cypriots, they don't have any problem. You know that before 2003, it wasn't possible to cross

from the free areas of the Republic to the occupied areas. In 2003, the then-Turkis Sibbriot leader Raouf dechtas, who was a heartliner in favor of the two-state solution, was obliged because of the prospect of SEPR joining the European Union in six months in 2004 to open the crossing points between the free areas and the areas under the control of Turkey. He was under the impression that in one week, Greek Cypriots and Turkey Cypriots will kill each other and he will prove his point that look, we cannot live together. So the two-state solution is the only solution on the Cyprus problem.

It didn't happen. There is no problem between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. The problem is between Cyprus and Turkey. And is related with the role that Turkey wants to play in this neighborhood. And you can listen to President Erdogan and some neo-Othoman statements, that some policies that are not only Sible, but also the countries of the region, they don't like. You actually had, I think you had a sort of not a tete-a-tete

because other leaders were there. You had a meeting with Erdogan not so long ago. What's the personal relationship? Do you see anything there that can be built and improved? And are the political risks to you of maybe being too nice about Erdogan? I witnessed a change. I have to admit this.

It was impossible even in international fora when we were approaching Turkish politicians to talk to us, even to talk to us. And my message, when I met, I saw Mr. Erdogan, it was in Albania during the APC meeting, the European political community, it was that we need to sit together and discuss. We're in favor, and that was my first message,

we're in favor of Turkey coming closer to the European Union. We are ready to discuss the custom union that it is an issue of great importance for Turkey. We are ready to discuss the visa liberalisation issue, which is very important for Turkey. But we need to start discussing together. But you wouldn't ever want them in the European Union? Cyprus, yes.

And what about him and you being in NATO? Of course I want Turkey in the European Union, but I know that a lot of countries are hiding behind Cyprus. Let's be honest. So Alastair, Mr. President, let's take a quick break. Hi, everybody. It's Dominic Zawrach here from The Rest Is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics when Rory was away

and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise. People are arguing about Europe. The government has got a few issues with the trade unions. And we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say,

governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues. And people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on The Rest is History, We'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistaira will have strong opinions about.

We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson. And we'll be talking about one of the grimest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go, tap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. Mr. President, what has the experience been like for you? So for listeners, my understanding is that you were Cyprus's answer to Alistair Campbell before you became Cyprus's answer to Tony Blair.

Tell us a little bit about what the experience is from going from being an issue, a diplomat and then somebody who was the chief spokesman for the government into being a serving politician. What does it feel like to become a politician? In fact, maybe you can give Alistair some advice when he considers his own political future. It is not very popular, not only in Cyprus, but in Europe in general to be a politician nowadays. So, yes, I was a young diplomat. I started my career from London. It was the best place to start your career as a diplomat

dealing with the diplomats in the foreign office. Then I moved to Athens. I moved to Brussels. Brussels was a great school being there as a spokesperson of the first Cyprus presidency. When the former president was elected, the minister of foreign affairs that he was appointed, he asked me to come in Cyprus, director of his office,

and diplomatic advisor of the president and Sherpa. I was there during Brexit. I can give you a lot of details that you can use. I'm sure that you have more insight information than myself. And when I became a Minister of Foreign Affairs, I was getting this encouragement from the people to run for president. But at the same time, the leader of my party wanted to run for a president. So they wanted me to make decision by in January 2022 to go publicly out and say that I support the leader of the party. And I wasn't in a position to do it because during that time, I didn't

took the decision to run for president. But they want me to do this statement. I said, I can't do it. I quit. And I start going to the people, discussing with the people. Moving from party politics to people politics. How do you, how, is the party system not the same as the UK then? The party system is really strong in Cyprus. Right, so you left the party? Yes. And I ran as an independent.

Right, but how did that work? And it was the first time actually in the history of the Republic of Cyprus that someone that didn't have the support of the two big parties was elected. Yeah. The reason I think that I succeeded is the fact that I went to the people. I visited all villages, all towns in the three areas of the Republic, I discussed with the people. They felt that, and that was the people.

and that was very rightly. I felt that I was one of them. We prepared, I prepared my program, talking with the people, and I was elected. You know British politics were very well. Where would you be on our political spectrum, left to right? Let's say we've got Jeremy Corbyn over here.

No, I don't have. I mean, I know, I know Jeremy. We've got Jeremy Corbyn over here, and we've got, I don't know, liberal Democrats today? or... You? Yes.

Liberal Democrat. Or, yeah. No. I'm coming from the Liberal Party, but I'm not a neoliberalist. I'm a social liberalist. I'm more than the third way of Tony Blair. You invest in this new wave.

I mean, free economy, free economy. I'm against taxes, taxis are killing business people. But at the same time, the state has certain responsibilities on health, on education, to provide to its people

the same. So you wouldn't define yourself in our terms as a conservative? Today, conservatives? No. No. Sorry. Kemmy. You've managed to offend both of us. That's absolutely amazing. No, no, he hasn't offended me. He says he's a Blairite. He's fine. He's fine. Mr. Rosen, tell us a little bit about these British bases. So last time I was in Cyprus, I came with the House of Commons Defense Select Committee, and we went and saw the bases, and we met with the government. Many people in Britain don't know about the bases,

don't understand about them, and maybe some people in Cyprus are not comfortable with them. Can you explain what these bases are, why they're there? Are they doing anything useful for Cyprus or Britain? The bases are the result of the colonization of Cyprus by the UK. There is a disagreement between Cyprus and the UK on the issue of sovereign bases or not. They consider, you consider, the UK government considers the basis as sovereign. we don't consider the basis as sovereign British area. We have this disagreement.

Another one. Another intractable problem. Look, we have a love and hate relationship with the UK. But I have to admit that I'm very happy with the way the new Prime Minister is handling the situation. You know that the new UK Prime Minister was the first one to visit Cyprus after 50. 53 years in a bilateral visit. After 53 years, and he arrived Cyprus through the Larnaca air. Not the bases. Exactly, which this is very important.

He's in power for how long. We met three times, two in London and one in Cyprus. And we're working very closely together, very closely together. And putting now my heart as a leader of an EU member state, We are very glad that we see a new page in the EU-UK relationship. Would you be happier if the British bases weren't here? Of course, I would be much more happy. But you're happy to live with it?

It is an issue of disagreement. We don't agree. In a number of cases that were discussing the Cyprus problem, I mean, let's go back in 2004. It was the first time that we have a plan that was put for the people in a referendum to vote for the solution of the Cyprus problem. The British bases were part of the deal. Do you say to Kirstama, you know, you gave away the British bases in Diego Garcia very happily.

Why don't you give away the bases in Cyprus? Some things cannot be said publicly, so we are starting from the issues that we agree in order to reach the issues that we disagree. Can I ask you about the issue of corruption and crime? Because I think you'd accept that Cyprus has a real problem in terms of its global image because of the whole golden... We used to have a serious problem. But these things endure. These things endure. I wonder, for example, whether how you feel about the influence of Russian money in Cyprus

and actually whether that relates in any way to, let me put it in other way, did you feel under pressure to come out with a pretty strong line on Russia-Ukraine? Does the presence of Russia and Russian money here inhibit you in any way? No, our position on the Russian Ukraine, it was very easy on because we are facing the similar situation like Ukraine. But on the issue of corruption, I will be fully honest with you. We did serious mistake as a country. We left our past behind. You know, when I became president in 2023, I had a case with an international media that was saying about Cyprus, corruption, etc.

So I called the Americans and I told them I need a team from FBI that they don't have any link in Cyprus to send it in Cyprus to support me. to clean with all those cases in Cyprus. And I was grateful that the United States replied immediately. They sent me a team in Cyprus. We clean all cases. And now we're reintroducing our country to the international arena. Recently, I was in a road show in New York, Texas and Silicon Valley to bring investment, U.S. investment in Cyprus.

Back in 2013, the major shareholders of our banks, they were Russians. Today, the major shareholders of our banks are Americans. I will ask you to check the last report from Maniwal, what they are saying about Cyprus and all the measures that we did. So I'm proud for the fact that we face this huge challenge of corruption in my country, and we are following a new path. Can I ask you about the church, the role of the church, and whether it's still a very powerful force in Cyprus,

and also about your own faith, whether you are a man of faith? I am a man of faith, but this is a purely personal issue. You don't talk about it. No, no, I talk, but I don't use it in international politics. No, but the faith is real as opposed to you feel you have to have faith because of the power of the church. It's not because of the power of the church. the church. I believe in faith and believe in church because of my personal experience. For example, I lost my brother at the age of 50s. My religious was very important for me to pass through

this very difficult moment. The role of church in Cyprus is not the same that it used to be before 10 years, before 20 years, before 30 years. And the church in Cyprus used to have a powerful role because the church let the undeliberation struggle against the UK, against the British. And that is why our first president was the Archbishop of Cyprus for 17 years. But the role of church is getting less and less important. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? It is a good thing. As a president, I don't get involved in the, not the politics, the business of the church.

they should not get involved in politics. The Archibisoph is talking publicly a number of times, positioning the church on issues, that I disagree with him. And when I meet him, I say, you know, I disagree with this issue at the end of the day. I need to decide. Tell me a little bit about what you have learned

about the correct strategic policy for a smaller country. So I guess you're a country, you're bigger than Malta, You're slightly bigger than Estonia. You may be bigger than Montenegro, smaller than Kosovo. I mean, can help us understand? Is there a particular way of thinking? Do you ever get together with people who have countries, maybe between half a million and two million people?

How do you think about those issues? In Cyprus, we used to have the impression that we are at the center of the world. We used to think that every morning they wake up in London, Washington, Moscow, and they think what I'm going to do today with Cyprus and the Cyprus problem. That was our impression for a number of years. Being a diplomat, being in a number of discussions with foreign leaders, say the ministers of foreign affairs or presidents, and then becoming a politician.

I fully understand that for a small country. First of all, you need to be relevant in the international assist. The United States or the UK, will not help us to solve the Cyprus problem if this is not the benefit of the United States or the UK. So in order to understand the Brits and the Americans that they have an interest to solve the Cyprus problem, they need first to see that they have an interest from a functional, reliable, predictable government and country in this very important region. So we fully change our foreign policy.

You know, when I'm going to Brussels, I need to ensure. in all issues and not only when I heard the word Turkey. Otherwise, nobody will think seriously of my country and of course myself. So the answers to Rory's question is you feel that the small countries have to think and operate like bigger countries. They shouldn't see themselves as small countries. And you know, following the terrorist attack of Hamas in Israel, October 2023, we developed in Cyprus this idea of the humanitarian core.

to send humanitarian assistance from Cyprus to Gaza. Gaza was under Israeli blockade for 17 years. And I remember I went to Paris. President Macron organized a Gaza Forum, Peace Forum. And I went there with my Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It was end of October, beginning of November. And I presented this idea of the humanitarian corridor. Nobody was interesting. Nobody. And we start working with the Miratis and the Americans. And the Brits? And the Brits. Actually, the Brits, they were the first.

Thank you for the correction. They were the first one to send ship from Cyprus to Israel. But we did it. It was the first time that Cyprus became internationally known for positive news. Just on that, I was going to ask you about the maritime scheme. Where's that gone? No, we're still working on this. Is it?

Of course. Recently I went to Israel and Palestine. I visited Prime Minister Netanyahu. I visited President Abbas. And we're working with the Emirades, especially with the Miradis, to send humanitarian assistance not directly to Gaza, but to Astov, the port there, in order to be sent in Gaza.

How do you feel about Gaza right now at the emotional level? Very, very disappointed. And the worst development is that nobody is discussing Gaza today. Everybody is discussing Iran. and Israel, and we have kids dying every day in Gaza. Don't you think that part of Netanyahu's thinking and pivoting to Iran may actually be to stop the world talking about Gaza? Or am I being too cynical about being in the only?

I don't think so that it was part of his priority. Iran? No, that he did it with Iran in order to... You don't? No. Do you think deep down, I mean, Netanyahu's been around a long, long time. I sort of have a sense of a lot of people around the world now. I think we have leaders of some of the more high-profile countries, America, Russia, Israel,

that really are, you know, that sometimes cynicism about politicians is justified. Of course. This is the case with a lot of leaders. But you think what he's doing in Iran, you think it's all about the Iran nuclear program. There's no other broader political agenda going on. Aton she brought a political agenda, especially with Iran, talking with them, knowing them very well, and also at the level of the people is not only Netanyahu. Do you see someone from the opposition being against what's going on with Iran in Israel? No.

Let me bring you again closer to your region. When we look around the region, many, many places seem to be in a situation of serious instability, almost failed states. Libya, Syria, Lebanon's not functioning very well. I mean, this is very problematic, right? I mean, these are major countries with serious resources who ought to be contributors to stability and are deeply destabilized and stable.

Tell us what's your analysis of this situation? What's going to happen over the next 20 years? Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya. I will answer you, even though I will disappoint. Mr. Alistair, the failures of the region and whatever you describe, is not because of the region. It's because of the international community. It's because of the Arab Spring, which tend to be an Arab winter in this region. And I see this also in a number of discussions that we have in the European Union.

In Brussels, we're discussing about Egypt, for example. Egypt, the country that has a lot of challenges. They have certain things that we don't like. We don't have it in Europe. And you know what is the position of some of my colleagues? We need to go and impose to Egypt this and this and this. But is it possible to impose in a country of 100 million people to change? They need to have the ownership of the change.

And that's what we are trying to do with the countries of the region. So with the Arab Spring, the West, and I'm in favor of the West, me wrong. We were under the impression that we will change the region in a Western democracy. Sorry, this is the Gulf, this is the Middle East, and you need to know. You know, I will mention one example I was in as a Minister of Foreign Affairs, Association Council of European Union with Jordan. And all the ministers of foreign affairs were there together with my then colleague, he's still the Foreign Minister of Jordan Ayman. And one of my my colleagues from a Scandinavian country, he was pushing him. You need to change these. And

women rights, LGBTI, a lot of issues that, you know, for a Western democracy, you know, they were very, very valid points. You know, what was his reaction? Before you dictate to me what I have to do for my country, you need to see geography. The neighbor of my country is Iran, whether the neighbor of your country is Denmark. So, as a European Union, I'm going back to the European Union. That is where we need to raise awareness. We know this region as a European Union and the West in general, to criticize also the West, whenever we want to sell military weapons.

We know these countries. We go to those countries of the region that are rich. But at the same time, we're the first to criticize them. We need to have an honest relationship with the countries of the region and work together. So are you basically saying that the West is often arrogant and hypocritical? Of course, especially towards this region.

Why did you think I would be disappointed by that? No, I'm talking about the Arab Spring and the Arab Winter and I remember back then everybody celebrating about the Arab Spring. Libya, it's because of Syria, all the countries of the region. I mean, we cannot impose

we pass the colonial era we cannot impose in any country we need to work with the countries of the rich You're describing something very difficult On the one hand you say we must not impose On the other hand you say we need international law And then back on the one hand you say

Yeah but nobody pays any intention to international law The strong do what they want The weak must accept what they do International law is hypocritical Look at Turkey, look at the US What is the kind of international law that is actually possible. What kind of international structure is possible? What are we supposed to be defending state sovereignty, human rights, international borders? I mean, what do you think is the

important thing, if there's going to be any international law, what do you think the two or three fundamental principles of this law should be? And how are you going to get the US, China, Russia to agree to these things? The most important is the state sovereignty. I still believe in the role of the state So the most important is the state sovereignty. Regarding how we will do this and how we'll reach that stage, I don't aspire Cyprus to play the leading role. We are not a country that we can impose to anybody. But we need to understand, and I really believe this,

we are living in a new international order. And I can speak on behalf also of the European Union. As a European Union, we have a special role to play and we can bring all different actors you mentioned, the United States, China, Russia, other actors, we can bring

all the actors together, to sit together and discuss and agree the way forward. This is the real power, I believe, of the European Union. We're doing this interview on the ninth anniversary of the Brexit referendum in 2016. I just asked you, you were a government

spokesman. Imagine you were a government spokesman for Boris Johnson's government. Tell me... He was a colleague of mine as a Minister of Front Affair. I know. Tell me a Brexit benefit. For me? Or for the UK? For the UK? Any Brexit benefit. Not a single one. I fully respect the will of the British people, but I was against Brexit.

It is a loose, loose situation, both for the UK and the European Union. And that's why I'm very glad that we start again working together. So in your presidency that's upcoming, we are going to work. And, okay, I would mention also this publicly. We are planning also to invite the British Foreign Minister during the Gimnick and also the European EU Minister during the Gimnik. Gimnick is the informal meeting of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the European Union. Because we need to work together with the UK,

and we are very glad that we see this positive reaction from the new British government. I was Sherpa during, Sherpa is the advisor of the president for EU affairs, and I was Sherpa during the Brexit. And I remember, I don't criticize the government back then, but I remember the government back then saying that the yes, the remain vote would be 60, 70%. That was the message in Brussels. Your party, Rory, David Cameron and George Osborne, complacency.

Your friend David Cameron, Alastair. Complacency. Well, listen, it would be lovely to talk to you. Mr. President, thank you. That was very generous of you to give so much time, and I'm sorry that I'm not with you in person, but thank you. We really appreciate it, and it's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much, first of all, for the interview, but also for dealing with this region. And as I told you before, it's very important that the UK is back of the region,

because UK, first, and France, secondly, they have a responsibility for this region. Ah, history. You're not saying it's more powerful than France. No, no, no, no, no, historical. I'm just trying to correct your spend here. Historically, they have a responsibility for this region. We're working together with the UK and France, you know, to raise awareness about the importance of this. Do you think we the Brits should feel more guilty

about some of the consequences of colonization? Of course. I'm not favour of colonization. I mean, I don't want to close with an unhappy note, but one of the reasons of the Cyprus problem today is a divided and rule policy of the British colonization but at the same time I'm very glad that at least I can have this discussion with the British Prime Minister before 10 years 20 years

that wasn't possible not 20 years you had a good guy's 10 years I'll give you before that was fine listen it was very nice to see the the symbol of the crown yeah but you have also the symbol of the republic from the symbol of the of the crown. Yeah. Well, that's a happier note than the earlier one. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. President, so much. Thank you. So, Alison, that was great. We also interviewed the Greek Prime Minister sometime back, and I wonder whether the two of them didn't remind me a little bit of each other. Okay. Whether that's not, there's a sort of cultural thing going on where they're both very sort of smart, educated,

quite centrist, internationally focused. Charming. Charming. And maybe that's the sort of flavor of modern, Greece, modern, modern Cyprus. Yeah. Am I on to something there? Am I missing something? I don't know. I don't know because I don't know enough of the other politicians who are around. Because the only way I could get there from where I'd

been in France was that I had rather convoluted route. And the quickest way to get there was to go a couple of days early. For all those complicated reasons, we don't need to bore our listeners with. But it meant I actually had a little bit of time in Cyprus before we did the interview. And, you know, I was able to talk to quite a lot of interesting people in all sorts of different walks of life. And one thing to tell you, Roy, as you probably know this, your father would certainly have known this, Cyprus is a nest of espionage. There's a lot of kind of stuff going on down there for all sorts of obvious reasons.

Turkey, the fact that it's so close to all these sort of difficult parts of the world, the British bases and all that. So I was able to speak to quite a lot of people and got very, very, very different sort of take on him. And actually, when I finally met him, I was quite surprised about how very charming. I mean, it's a shame you weren't there because, of course, when you're in person, you get the bits at either end of the interview and the small talk and the tour of the building and the going out for dinner with his team and all that sort of stuff. Very, very charming, very warm. I thought actually had a really interesting take on some of the issues that we were talking about.

He wasn't the kind of line-to-ta-ta-tape merchant. He had a few notes that he'd done in his own hand. I was trying to read them upside down. And about what he was saying. But were they in Greek? Well, because I was trying to read upside down and because I couldn't get my glasses quite focused on it, I honestly don't know, but I was really trying out.

But he scribbled his own thoughts. I think they were in English, actually. And that's because before we came on, one of his people told me that he's English, he's good, but it's not his mother tongue. So he's a little bit nervous about doing a whole hour in English. And that's why we had a little chat beforehand to get going. So I think his notes were in English.

So my point is he'd prepared. He had certain points he was going to land. I worried at the very start, he was going to give us a little bit of a speech. But he very quickly, I thought, got into a real sense of give and take and conversation and what have you. And I thought he said some really interesting things. I loved his answer to you about small countries. Yeah. And presumably that resonates with your conversations that you've had with other small countries.

No, it doesn't in a way. Oh, okay. I'll tell you why. I think a lot of small countries. Eddie Rahm is an exception. Eddie Rahma, Prime Minister of Albania. He definitely has that mindset of sort of operators, though you're a big country. But I think quite a lot of small countries do sort of think, okay, well, I'm not as big as this country.

I'm not as big as that country. I have to play my role down. He was saying basically, when he turns up at European summits, he thinks, no, I'm not just going to talk about Turkey. I'm going to talk about, you know, digitalization. I'm going to talk about immigration. I'm going to talk about trade relations with the United States. And I think that was an interesting insight to me about how you have to behave. Yeah.

I mean, obviously, when we talk to Gabriel Lutali, former Prime Minister of France, there was a certain amount of international stuff, although less in fact that I would have wanted. We found it with Albania, where, of course, there was a lot of that stuff. And of course, as you can imagine, when we do British Prime Minister for Angela Merkel or Americans, we get a lot of that. The Prime Minister Denmark, I guess, was a sort of example in the other direction, wasn't it? She was a bit reluctant to develop grand theories of international human rights and this

that and the other. She had a very focused vision of, this is Denmark. You almost felt she was talking directly to a Danish electorate. She wasn't really trying to kind of charm the international media. Yeah, no, that's a good point. The other thing I find quite interesting about him. Actually, I'll tell you one thing I found really interesting, and particularly given Kirstama's been going through quite a rough patch domestically,

was just how warm about him he was. And I'm very good at detecting bullshit amongst leaders. Yeah. And we carried on that conversation later, and it was really, really, really genuine and interesting. But I think most people who encountered Stama when I was in Parliament one-on-one really liked him in person. I think that there is often that thing, isn't there? That people really love John Major, now he's no longer in office and quite liked him one-on-one.

That Stama's clearly, he's not a big sort of global-level bullshitter. He's a smart, thoughtful lawyer with a serious professional career. He's actually got a certain sort of energy in VIM. I felt last time I saw him, I was really struck by actually how much more energy he seems to have in person than he's necessarily able to communicate on a stage. So I wonder whether that isn't right and whether all of them wouldn't slightly sense that. I mean, you get the sense that Trump certainly likes him. Carney certainly seems to be able to get on with him well. Yeah, Macron, he gets on pretty well.

And, of course, don't forget the, you know, in a way, one of the big bilateral issues between us and Cyprus, with all the sort of rich and difficult history are these sovereign bases, which they, don't think our sovereign British and they just sort of muddle along together. And you could imagine easily the leader of a small country like Cyprus dealing with a big country like the UK and allowing that to define the relationship. And this goes back to him sort of clearly seeing himself. And I'm sure psychologically this is the right thing to do is being on a level, dealing with all the difficult issues that confront all world leaders. See, I thought he was, I thought he was pretty effective. And what did you make of the whole

the turk, the Cyprus problem or the Cyprus issue as it's called because it was really interesting

when he was, when he was saying, you know, we have very good alliances with all countries and then he's sort of slight quizzical apart from one.

And it was and when he was talking about inviting Britain and other countries and all the countries of the region, he wasn't exactly warm and effusive

about saying, yeah, we'd love it if Erdogan turned up. No, no, when he threw that at him at him,

there was a slight pause before he was like, yeah, I'm in short, I mean, if he won. So, I think that's right. And I think it's a glimpse, presumably, into the fact that this is the existential definitional issue of Cypriot politics. You know, this was a country that got independence from Britain initially on a path to unify with Greece. So the initial idea is they wanted to be part of Greece. And then they went for independence and then they were invaded. So I'm guessing he's coming from a tradition, which is, to put it mildly, profoundly Cypriot nationalist.

and profoundly horrified by Turkey and the Turkish invasion. And you can't, I think, operate in separate politics without understanding that most of your voter base and everything that's happening around you is about the Turkish invasion, the illegal Turkish invasion. Just to flip it to you on Northern Ireland quickly, and I'll maybe finish on this, is that, of course, to actually get out of that, they have to decide whether they are or are not prepared to accept a two-state solution. They're still working on the old UN model that says no two-state solution. I'm going to have to integrate this whole thing. And that's what he's still pushing. And of course, the Turks say, uh-uh, two-state solution. This has gone on long enough.

These borders have been here for 50 years. We're two-separate communities. This is only going to work with a two-state solution. Yeah, well, I think if he were to go down that path, his very, very impressive electoral success last time would not necessarily be repeated. So I got a very strong sense that two-state solution is a non-starter. and of the kind of quotes real people that I met around the place, I did hear two of them say the phrase that I know quite a lot of them may think, but very few of them might say it publicly.

One of them who did say, you do realize that the only good Turk is a dead Turk. So there was a sort of, there is that sort of, that level of brutality in their thinking for some of them. And I've got to say, maybe I'll close at this, Rory. When I checked into the hotel where we did one of our episodes from, and I opened the windows and pull, you know, it was very, very nice view, but over into what the Turks call the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,

brackets self-styled, everybody else would say, and what the Cypriots call the occupied territories. And what the people on that side of the buffer zone have done is they've mown into the hillside this massive, massive Turkish flag. And I thought, that's clever trolley. That's really clever. I then went out for dinner with some of the president's team, who were very, very nice.

We had a really nice evening out. And got back to the hotel and by then it was dark. And this massive, made out of a lawnmire flag, was now lit up. Bright lights the flag. So they're at least keeping this, keeping their sense of humour. think we're a long way from resolving the issue. But in the end, it will have to be resolved.

I don't think you can keep on forever. And the other thing I heard is that the United Nations, who obviously have to police and protect this buffer zone, this is where some of the other things we've talked about in the podcast come into play, they have been badly damaged by the continual underfunding of the United Nations. So actually, that's helping the people who are trying to, you know, make the border more porous and the smugglers and the criminals and all the rest of it. So let's speak up for the UN for them to get properly resourced again. I guess the final thing, just as a coda for us, is that it's such a privilege to be able to meet heads of state from all these different countries, including the president of Syria. But as usual, there will be so many things that we're missing, which will be immediately obvious to a separate.

So they may be worrying about corruption. They may be worrying more about Russian money. They may be thinking, yeah, all very well. He's very charming and talks well about international. affairs, but he's not really driving through a domestic agenda in the way we want. Who knows, really? But I was very taken with him, and I think it's a wonderful thing to do, and I'm looking forward to traveling to other places with you. Thank you. Excellent. See you soon.