The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 154. Maro Itoje: Inequality, Identity, and Hope

Episode Date: September 21, 2025

How do we tackle global poverty and fight for change? What qualities are needed in a leadership role? Is the Labour government delivering on the issue of inequality in the UK? Rory and Alastair are joined by captain of the England Rugby team, Maro Itoje, to discuss all this and more. Visit HP.com/politics to find out more. Join The Rest Is Politics Plus: Start your FREE TRIAL at therestispolitics.com to unlock exclusive bonus content – including Rory and Alastair’s miniseries – plus ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, an exclusive members’ newsletter, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. To save your company time and money, open a Revolut Business account today via https://www.revolut.com/rb/leading, and add money to your account by 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. This offer’s available for New Business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and Terms & Conditions apply. For US customers, Revolut is not a bank. Banking services and card issuance are provided by Lead Bank, Member FDIC. Visa® and Mastercard® cards issued under license. Funds are FDIC insured up to $250,000 through Lead Bank, in the event Lead Bank fails. Fees may apply. See full terms in description. For Irish customers, Revolut Bank UAB is authorised and regulated by the Bank of Lithuania in the Republic of Lithuania and by the European Central Bank and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. For AU customers, consider PDS & TMD at revolut.com/en-AU. Revolut Payments Australia Pty Ltd (AFSL 517589). Find out more about how Google’s AI is helping fuel the UK’s growth and transformation and read the report at goo.gle/aiworks. Social Producer: Harry Balden Video Editor: Teo Ayodeji-Ansell Assistant Producer: Alice Horrell Producer: Nicole Maslen Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the rest is politics.com. This episode is sponsored by HP. Now, Rory, I hear that Windows 10 is finally being put out to pasture this year. It is, and something pretty relevant for you, Alistair, given what I've seen as some of your technology. It's going on October the 14th, to be exact. And after that, Microsoft is going to be able to. stop supporting some of those old laptops of yours. No updates, no security patches. So if you were still using it or a business was still using Windows 10, it would be really exposed to cyber threats, for example. It would be like locking the door, but leaving the key in the lock. So it's time to move on, and HP are making that refreshingly straightforward. Yes, they are. HP's latest business PCs comes with Windows 11 Pro as standard. They're faster, more secure, built for the AI tools, which are already reshaping the way we work. And you don't have to figure out all in your own.

HP's business advisors help you pick the right kit, so no baffling jargon, just practical advice. And here's the bonus. Restis Politics listeners get 10% off business PCs at HP.com using the code Trip10 term supply. So unlock efficiency and innovation, upgrade to Windows 11 Pro PCs with HP and get 10% discount. Visit HP.com slash politics to find out more. Welcome to the Restis Politics Leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alastair Campbell. And this is a very special episode of the Restis Politics Leading, and that's special not just because of our guests,

but because for the first time we're teaming up with different podcasts around the world to spread a message, and the message is Be Hope. There is so much to feel hopeless about right now, Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, climate, inequality, rise of the far right. But amid despair, we always have to find hope. and the B-hope message is that hope is an action, not just a feeling or aspiration. So why now and why today? Well, because we're on the eve of the United Nations General Assembly at a time when the 17

sustainable development goals, adopted by all United Nations in 2015, with the goal of peace and prosperity for people on the planet, feel under threat. Rory's going to read them at the end of this episode, and they remain the best plan that we have to end poverty, fight inequality. tackle climate change. And we decided that rather than talk to a politician or diplomat as our contribution to this podcast festival of hope, we would ask today's guest, Maro Itoji, who in several ways is a symbol of hope. He's a black man in a white man's world, rugby union, who has risen to become captain of England and of the British and Irish Lions, and one of the most famous names

in the sport. He's a proud Brit who has never forgotten his Nigerian roots, and who sees great hope in Africa where others prefer to cede as war, conflict and despair. He's a graduate from SOAS, the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, and also as a Masters in Business from Warwick Business School. He's nicknamed the Pearl and set up the Pearl Fund, which raises money to invest in education in Africa. I've known Morrow since he was a rising star at Saracens, where we are now, and as you'll hear, he's hardly intelligent, very thoughtful, passionate about his sport, but also hugely interested in politics, art and culture. And as you will see, if you're watching as well as listening, he is rarely without a smile on his face. And even more these

days, because he and his girlfriend, Mimi, were recently married. Marrow, thank you for being our Be Hope guest. And can I start with that? You've just got married. What sort of world do you think you're going to be bringing children into and how optimistic are you about it? Well, first of all, thank you, Thank you, Rory. I'm very happy to be here, as I said off air. I'm a long-time listener and admirer of the podcast. I'm very honored to be asked. I was wondering what took you so long to ask me, but I'll let that one slide. So, yes, I recently got married in London, and it was an amazing affair, really. Hold on. I thought you had a wedding in Lodge. You had two weddings. I had two weddings. Both were in London, but one was a traditional Nigerian wedding. Which hence the confusion. But no, it was great. And yes, as you say, the world is full of challenges,

is full of things to be wary about and things to be conscious about. However, what is life without hope? What is life if you're living in the despair? What is life if you're dwelling in the negativity? I like to look at the positives and things. And whilst there are a number of challenges in the world, whether it's domestically, internationally. There's still a number of

wonderful things that are taking place and amazing things that are happening. So there's loads to be hopeful and cheery about. For our listeners who don't all know who you are, there will be people who adore you, worship you and see you as one of the central stars of Britain, and there'll be other international listeners who are less familiar with you and less familiar even with rugby. Tell us a little about who you are, where you came from, what your childhood was like, and how you ended up where you are today. Yeah, so I was born in London. I love London, by the way. I think London is a great city. I'm a big fan of it. But I was born in London in 1994, to Nigerian parents. My parents were both born and raised in Nigeria. So as I'm sure you're

aware, Rory, but to our listeners, Nigeria is made up of a number of different tribes. There's there's over a hundred of them. And I'm part of one of the minority tribes, it's called the Uroble tribe. And my parents are both very proud Urobo, Nigerian individuals. And they moved when they got married to London, to make London their home. And they started having us,

when I say us, myself and my siblings there. And we've kind of lived this, I guess, dual nationality life where in the, The house was very Nigerian. We grew up Nigerian household, Nigerian customs, Nigerian food, Nigerian traditions. But obviously, you were living in this wonderful city of London. So there was, I guess, one of my friends, they almost called it hyphenated identities, or you're kind of sailing between the two.

And Murray, just quickly on that one, give us the sense of what was Nigerian about the home. If I had turned up in your house when you were a kid, What would I have seen that would have been different from turning up in someone else's home? So there was a lot of people. There were a lot of people in and out of my house. So my nuclear family was myself, my brother, sister and my two parents. And it was very, very rare to have only us in the house. And I think that speaks to the magnetic personality that my mom in particular is people just love being around her.

people love coming in and out. So there were a lot of people that had that kind of family feel. The food, even today, if I go to my house, my parents don't live too far from here. If I was to drive there now, the fridge will be full. They have two fridge freezers and a deep freezer. And it's always full. So even now, so it's the food, even some of the customs in around respect, respect for your elders. I guess in most societies, in most cultures, but if I was sitting down in the living room,

then suddenly my auntie or uncle walked in. The expectation is not about even being polite. The expectation is that I get up and give them my seat, or at least offer them my seat. Even the way we greet in my language in Urubo. So when I was to see someone who is older than me, the greeting would be migua. and the direct translation is, I'm on my knees, then they would respond, Vrendo, which means get up. So that's, this goes to give you a little bit of the flavour.

So interesting, Mara, I've always just thought that's you, what you thought my name was Migwer. That's why you came to say to it. The other thing, of course, is I've been to your house, and, I mean, you have a lot of African art. It strikes me that that's become like a real passion. Is that part of the same thing, that sense of hyphenation, identity or is it deeper than that?

I'll say it's marginally deeper than that. I think when I moved into my first apartment in 2015, I wanted to decorate it with some art and I was looking for some African art and I couldn't find any. I went to Nigeria and I basically just fell in love with that African art. And I think perhaps the deeper side to it was

the art kind of made me feel connected to Nigeria even though that I'm not there. And it kind of was almost a bridge. and I felt a connection to the art that I didn't feel for other types of art from different parts of the world. So it really spoke to my soul. Let's move to the crux of where we are, which is, I guess, poverty in the world. And one of the big issues is that there was an amazing decline in poverty. In 10 years, poverty almost halved.

But in the last 10 years, the decline in poverty has really slowed up. There's still over 800 million people living on less than two. dollars a day. That's people, you know, just for listeners who aren't concentrating on what that means, and you will have seen this in Nigeria, but that means people who may not have, maybe sleeping on the floor, may not have a decent roof, may be struggling to feed themselves their family more than once every couple of days. What's your sense of this? What's your sense on what we can do? How have we got ourselves stuck in this position? And at the same time, the US and the UK are cutting their support for poverty around the world?

Yeah, it's quite sad over the last year or so. We've seen major powers like the UK and US cut their aid. And whilst it's challenging because of, I guess, the political and the defence factors pertaining to the UK and US, but I'm also a big believer that no matter how much the UK, US or Western powers spend on aid, the ones who have a true sense of tackling poverty is in the hands of those who are facing it. So by that, I first mean the government. So whether we're talking about poverty and thus, you know, poverty exists everywhere, whether it's the UK, US, Nigeria, Wanda, or anywhere in Asia, it covers all those places.

But if we focus on the developing world for a second, I'm a big believer that the power, the real power, to tackle poverty is in the hands of said governments. And said governments need to see this as an urgent priority. It needs to be at the forefront of their agenda. Because with rising poverty, it means rising inequality. With rising inequality is probably going to lead to rising civil unrest. Maybe this is an unfair question to you when you're a great Nigerian cultural icon. And even an aspiring politician, and you may give me a politician's

answer, but isn't quite a lot of the problem in Nigeria, that corruption should we not be open about the nature of the governments that have been around for the last 20 years? Absolutely. That's definitely had a role to play. We've had several governments who are not acting in the best interest of their people. And when you see that on a consistent basis, year after year, decade after decade, it has an effect. So the power, the real power to change that is in the hands. of, in this case, Nigerian government, but we can use any other government as an example, whether we're talking about India or whether we're talking about Ghana or whether we're talking about Eritrea. The philosophy is the same. Like, the government needs to do better in creating an

environment where wealth can grow. What do you think we're missing about Nigeria? What do you think people who are not Nigerian don't understand about the challenges there, about government there? What do you notice being on the ground that people looking at it from the outside often miss? There's almost a cultural thing at play which doesn't necessarily help. Like, even if you're talking about doing business in Nigeria, sometimes it's a little bit of corruption is almost part of the way you do business. You have to almost have to factor that in. You have to understand a little bit about that.

But, you know, that's not to paint Nigeria with a general brush. The whole of the society are not like that. And if you go to Nigeria, you'll see people doing amazing work in that space. So I'm not here to necessarily talk down on Nigeria. But I think, as you say, you have to, you know, we have to be real. We have to acknowledge that there's challenges in terms of governance historically. And that is a massive part of the puzzle in which we need to get right in order for us to progress the way we want to. You mentioned inequality there.

And of course, there's plenty of inequality. in the developed economies of the world as well, not least ours. And of course, you had this, your parents came from Nigeria, as you say, you ended up going to one of the top private schools in the country. You've got a scholarship to Harrow. And I just wonder what your senses, both of what that gave you as your experience of Britain and a class system, but also your sense of inequality,

whether you felt that you were getting greater opportunity than other kids who weren't getting that kind of chance. Yeah, so for context, throughout my education, I probably straddled the private and state school sector, started off at public primary school, then went to a prep school, then went to a state boarding school, then ended up at a private public school as well. So I've kind of experienced everything. All of them were great schools. It would go without saying that the general package that Harrow was able to offer their students, it was a lot of. It was a good school. It was a good school. It was a lot of, far more than any of the previous schools I went to, even the other private schools I went to. So that goes to say, talk about one, you know, I see that as a positive thing, but you also acknowledge that a lot of other kids aren't getting that offering. It's not only the offering in terms of what is available to the kids, but it's also perhaps a slightly different mindset. I remember this story vividly when I went to

Harrow and I was speaking to one of my teammates on the rugby team and it was just after we got our GCSE grades and you know I was pretty happy in my grades. I got mainly A's and I was you know really positive. Then he said oh and kind of shook his head. Then I was like, what? Do you think I was dumb or something? Then he was like, no, I thought you were a lot smarter. I say that story to say that the level of what they expect from themselves, was also a lot higher though. How political are you? Where do you think your politics came from? Very good question. I would say I'm quite political. My politics, where did it come from? I think I had a natural interest in this area.

I think I've always been somewhat interested in history and the reason why certain figures did certain things and I guess the more and more I've dived into it, it became more and more interesting. So I moved, if I get my dates right, I think I moved to Harrow in 2010. So, 2010, and that was the time where Gordon Brown and David Cameron were, and Nick Clegg, of course, the 2010 election. So I was studying politics at the time. I was eagerly there.

One of my first politics lessons and, you know, the teacher was a little bit quirk. and he said, all right, so maybe a classroom of 10 of us or so. And he said, obviously, none of you can vote, but if you could vote, who would you vote for? Put your hand up if you vote Tory. Then all of a sudden, eight hands went up in the air. Oh, I'm looking around. Then they said, put your hand up if you vote Labor. Then I put my hand up.

And one other person put that hand up. This is probably not the best way to make friends here. But I guess, yeah, it's always been an area of interest. Why do you think that was? Why did you feel at that time in that environment that you were labour? Most of my early consciousness was in the new labour kind of area, new labour years. So I guess, first of all, they were the only real government that I was conscious of. I wasn't conscious when they were in the wilderness for all those years.

And I guess I, in principle, I agree with the general philosophy of it, of modernising the country, looking to challenge and tackle inequality, understanding the role of business and, I guess, individual liberties and freedoms, but also want to provide a society where everyone grows and everyone can flourish. And yeah, I think there was understanding that to be progressive, it's important for all of those things to move in the right direction. Now, having dreamt of the return of a Labour government for 14 years, now you've got one. What do you make of these guys? Have they lived up your expectations? Well, you know, there's no doubt that probably, well, it's difficult because there's very different circumstances, as you know. They are facing a number of challenges, particularly from an economic point of view, which is limiting what they can actually do. There seems to be a communication problem.

They probably aren't getting their message out there as much as they would like. But it's tough because we're not growing. The economy is almost stagnant. I think as a society, we've become accustomed to. to having a good healthcare system. I know throughout, you know, as long as I've been alive, there's always been complaints, but by most measures, if you were to compare it

to other parts of the world, a good healthcare system, a good public service, I guess enough police, whereas now, due to budgets, everything is being constrained. On top of that cost of living, everything feels constrained. So, you know, in reality, it almost doesn't matter what the government, what government we have,

now, whether it's Tory or Labour, they would, every government will struggle under the circumstances we find ourselves in. What I sense you're saying is that you're still supporting this government, wanting it to succeed, but that you kind of feel their pain in not fully being able to do the things that maybe they want to and said they would. Yeah, absolutely. Of course. I think, yeah, I can't remember who, I listened recently.

And someone said, anyone who is center right to probably moderate left, and I would say that probably encompasses most people within the UK. But everyone should really want this government to succeed because otherwise, if this government doesn't succeed, general sentiment is like we're looking, we're then looking at the extremes. We're looking at either far right or far left. And both I don't think are what is needed. You mentioned the far right there, and there is a set sense. I mean, you've now got mainstream conservative politicians who are saying and saying things that when I was your age, would have been seen as kind of just outrageous.

But now they're mainstream. You have Tommy Robinson getting 130,000, 150,000 people out on the streets for it. Just winding back through your life, how conscious of you being of racism in the UK and how much do you fear that it either is getting worse or could get worse if this far-right thing doesn't get pushed back? Yeah, I guess as a black man growing up in, I guess, modern Britain, or I'll say any minority, really, you're obviously conscious of it because in this scenario, you're the other. You're the minority. So just as the same way, if you were growing up in India, you would be conscious of it because you're the other. And throughout my life, yeah, it has there been instances of racism. Yeah, there have been.

But generally speaking, most people that you interact with and deal with are good nature. And even if they cause offence, they don't mean to cause it, or it's maybe a slick of the tongue or a lack of understanding in some sense. And what I would say is, you know, whilst there's always, there's always challenges, there's always moments where things are getting questioned or whatever, I think if you look at the long arc of history, I think we are moving towards more and more positive space in that regard. What's the sense of what it's like to be a professional sportsman? I mean, most fun listeners will have no idea at all.

It's absolutely marvellous, Roy. I play with the Diego Maradonna. Alastair, Alastair, once to answer this question. But what do we not get? What is it compared to, I don't know, doing other kinds of jobs that people could relate to? How would you explain it to someone who's not a sportsman? In many ways, it's the absolute blessing. I feel incredibly fortunate and lucky that I've been able to play rugby as much.

my only real profession in my life so far. It's a lot of hard work, as you can expect. Tell us a bit about that, because we don't know about that. You take it for granted, but we don't really understand what you actually have to do. You know, I've had to go through, I don't even know how many, thousands and thousands of extremely tough sessions, pushing your body to the limit, dealing with criticism, dealing with either poor performance, dealing with the pressure, both self-pressure, the pressure of the environment,

and also external pressure. And one thing that I think rugby has actually set me up, particularly the higher and higher level you play at, is about how one deals with pressure. And whilst it's a blessing, it's an extremely high-pressure job. And it's, you know, you play in front of 80,000 or so people, when you play for England, you have another set of fans who absolutely hate you. You have your fans who have such a high expectation, anything but a win is a failure.

Even sometimes when you win, you don't win well enough. But yeah, it's just a lot of commitment, a lot of sacrifice. I've had to sacrifice a number of social engagements. Even as we speak now, one of my best friends is getting married in Marrakesh. and I can't be there because I've had to train. And that's the same. My own brother, he's getting married again in a couple of weeks in America. And I can't, I can't be there because of, because of rugby.

Hold on Mark. He knows you're a rugby player. I mean, you know, he could have organised the wedding. The wedding should have a different time. I think that's the brother saying. I don't want him. I don't want him there. They're all looking at him, not me.

No, no. You're very close to your brother. You live with my brother. I lived with my brother for about seven or eight years. So we're very close. But it's just, you know, the things are never, just one decision.

Do you think that politics and politicians generally fully understand what sport can do for culture, for society, for the soft power? I often feel that too many politicians look at sport as entertainment,

fun, something good to be associated with. But I just wonder if we don't miss a massive trick in understanding that sport is much, much more powerful than that. Yeah, sport is massive. It almost can't fully describe how influential it is. So even breaking it down to maybe a grassroots level, you know, I know you're a big advocate of mental health and the works and the wonders that sport can have, exercise can

have one and any individual's mental health is massive. The social aspect in order to go around and meet people and interact with people is, again, another huge thing. But also, like, the importance of teams doing well, national teams doing well and the effect that has for the culture. So in particular, you know, football, when the England football team is doing well, I think the economy, I don't know the stats, but the economy must skyrocket. People are going out, people are spending time, people are socialising. I remember one of Southgate's very first, I think it was his Euro runs where they got to the semi-final. I think I was away at the time and I was like, I want to be in England because the energy of the whole place was amazing. So that's another big thing.

And even on top of that, you see what the red roses is doing at the moment in rugby. You see what Team G.B have traditionally done with Olympics, particularly. 2012, you see the impact of the Premier League. Like the Premier League is potentially one of the most influential institutions that this country has in terms of exhibiting British power or English power. No British. British. There's no Scots. There's no Scots and the Northern Irish people in the Premier League.

And no one watches those ones anyway. You can't just scotland off. about that just because you get booed on. What's the difference in the personality types of different sportsmen? You must be close to professional footballers. How are they different from professional rugby players? Yeah, they're different. And it might be because they have a lot more money than us.

They also don't get hurt as badly as you do. On a serious note, I actually think that has a role to play. Because there's so much money at play, it probably distorts your views. feeling of self-importance and how you interact with people. And suddenly, your decisions carry a lot more weight around people because they want to be around you because of the potential money that they can get. I've interacted with a lot of footballers and most of the ones I've interacted with are, you know, extremely friendly. How about the nature of the game itself? I mean, you're taking incredibly punishing tackles.

It's a physical in a way that's different to you. He gives out quite a lot as well, though, Roy. And very different also, obviously, to a tennis player. I mean, do you have a sense that the actual nature of the game creates a different personality type? Yeah, so rugby is an incredibly emotive game. I think not that I've played football at a very much lower level, but when I compare rugby to game like football or athletics, there's something that is particularly unnatural about rugby in the sense that I get a ball

and I run as hard as I can into you. I hope not, Mara, given you're six foot six. But to have that sort of mindset is not just about, you know, tactics and technique. There's a motive, like, mentality side of the game, which you have to get right. So rugby is almost a blend of extreme aggressive personalities and extreme aggressive mindsets. But within that, there's also an art to it. There's a precision to it. So it's always a balance between the two, whereas other sports, I don't think, has that natural almost balance.

Do you set out when you're running at Rory Stewart with the ball? Do you set out to hurt them? You want to dominate them. Yeah, you want to dominate them. Ultimately, the biggest thing is to win. So I don't cloud my judgment so much that I want to hurt Rory so much that I, make bad decisions because that's also a side of the game where you can see red and be irrational and be reckless. So you don't want to do that. But you also want to impose your physicality on.

For example, you've had quite a lot of broken bones. If you go in and you break somebody's bone, not necessarily deliberately. What do you feel about that? Do you feel you've done your job or do you feel you're sorry for them or what? You never want to injure someone to the extent that they break their bones. or they get injured. But you do want to impose yourself on them. So I would never revel in the fact that I injured someone or I, you know, broken their ligaments or bones or whatever. That's not what it's about.

But I would be lying if I said that I didn't want to, I think, hurt. You want to go as far as to hurt and to help your team win. It's all with a purpose. And what happens with, like, so you were captain of England, and then recently you've been captain of the British and Irish Lions, where teams from four countries come together as one team which you led. And yet these are players that you've hurt and they've hurt you.

How does that kind of dynamic develop? That's the amazing thing about the Lions. The Lions is well and truly a very, very unique institution. And I know you have a little bit of experience there where you have four different nations. They have four different types of ways of playing, four different philosophies, and you all blend. And it's the cultural differences, it's the language differences, et cetera, et cetera. And if anything, that also goes to show the power of sport, the unity of sport, that you can put your differences aside for a greater goal. And that is something that I've been very, very honored and privileged to be a part of.

Do you feel that one of the problems, I don't know, I feel one of the problems maybe for somebody like you who is, so famous and a kind of big figure and a celebrity and a role model, is that you're often being asked to play so many different roles. People will be projecting onto you, now we want Mario to champion our charity, now we want them to appear on some celebrity show, now we want them to talk about politics. How do you manage people's expectations outside sport, the way that you become something more than just a really good rugby player? You become something that people want to project other things onto. I think any individual, and this is whether you play sport or any, any, you know, Tom, Dick or Harry on the street, I think you have to know who you are. First and foremost, you have to

know who you are. You have to know what you're passionate about and you have to have a strong sense of what your values are. I think once you establish those three things, I think everything else flows from there. So if this was a show about ballet, maybe I'll do it, but I wouldn't be able to give you much. I wouldn't be able to give you much. I try and stay around the areas that are of interest to me, especially if things like charities or things to that nature. There's so many good causes in the world, but I can't support every single one. So I've chosen like the areas in which are of interest to me, African art, education, poverty, inequality, and they're the sort of the areas that I tend to stay on. Do you think one day you might go into politics, either as an elected politician or as somebody

who works in politics? Because you're 30 now, which I know is young, you're on the back nine of your rugby career, aren't you? Which is amazing. You're 30. So you must be thinking about what you're going to do afterwards. I just wonder whether politics in any shape or form would be part of that. Well, after reading politics on the edge. Who wrote that? Who wrote that, Marrow? After reading politics on the edge, which apparently is available in all good bookstores near you.

It put you off. This is what you've done. Rat, Morrow, get back to my diaries, which show, yes, it's difficult, but great things can be done. You put Morrow off, it's an outrage. No, but in all seriousness, it's something that is of deep interest to me.

People often ask me, what would you do if you weren't a rugby player? And I actually find that a very difficult question to answer because I have so many interests and I think I could have gone any which way and one of them was or is politics. So I'm not sure. I'm not putting anything off the table.

The opportunity to affect real change, the opportunity to put legislation in place for the betterment of society, I think is a very attractive one. But it also has, It's drawbacks as well. What about sports politics? You know, the sort of Sebastian Co-routes.

Is that of interested? Potentially, but I'm actually more attracted to real politics. As sports politics. One of things you're interested in is international development, poverty, education, and we're doing this, of course, as part of the Behope campaign. Tell us a little bit about programs you've seen on poverty, which have interested you, which have seemed effective, things that have made a difference, things that have caught your attention. As you've kind of alluded to earlier, I've been involved with a number of charities in the past, and I've seen some of their programs.

And some of the programs have been good. And you see the people, the kids, the individuals in said program, and they're having a good time. You can see the progress. You can see the growth. But as soon as those individuals go back into their environment or they go back into their unfortunate, disadvantaged society. it almost seems as if they were never really there. So I think the programs that make sense and make long-lasting change are the ones that are there for the long term.

Like to make change in someone, and whether that is a child or whether that is taking someone out of poverty, it needs to be sustained. It needs to be over a period of time. So some of the work that I currently do now with my foundation, the Pearl Fund, is to try and do that. We support kids from the start of their primary education

to the very end of their education. So that's almost just shy of two decades' worth of support. And I think we need long-lasting things to really make change. I mean, the reason that this campaign is happening now is because the assessment of the Sustainable Development Goals is that they're kind of 20% on track to be met by 2030, which is clearly not great. But at the same time, you can point to deaths from malaria, deaths from AIDS, girls in education.

You can see lots of things where the progress is being made. OK, Marrow, Alastair, quick break, and then back for more. This episode is brought to you by Google. We won't fully realize the potential gains of AI unless we make it accessible and useful for everybody across the whole UK workforce. That's why Google, for example, are working closely with trade unions. AI and trade unions may not sound like the most natural of partners, but the union movement has got a proud history of supporting members from across the economy and preparing them for the ever-changing world of work. That's why Google partnered, for example, with the community union in the UK on a people's first skills pilot called AI Works. And it's designed to see how AI could help workers and ultimately create productivity benefits across the whole wider economy.

Just a few hours of training could save members almost a month. the year on routine tasks, time-free for the work where their expertise really counts. One community member, for example, working in a supported living home, said Gemini helped streamline paperwork so she could spend more time with residents. That's a very powerful story, and it shows the positive impact AI can have on people's lives making a real difference in the day-to-day. Find out how Google's AI is helping fuel the UK's growth and transformation at go-o.glo.g. This episode is brought you by Revoluted Business, the all in one account designed for efficiency and built for business.

Is it true basically that you don't even have a spreadsheet to do your expenses? I've got a pen, paper, paper clips, little notes. But I accept it could be more efficient, Rory. So I'm going to sell Revoluted business to you. It brings clarity and efficiency, works in over 30 different currencies, no hidden fees, smart spending tools. It is actually pretty amazing. And you can set card limits, you can automate your expenses, basically, it does take the stress out of your financial woes. There's also a £200 welcome bonus if you're new to Revolute business.

Open a Revolut business account today via Revolut.com slash RBE slash leading or by using the link in this episode's description. And add money to your account to get a £200 welcome bonus or equivalent in your local currency. The offers only available until the 31st of December. 2025 for new business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland fees and terms and conditions apply. Whatever stage your business is at. With Revoluted business, you're ready for what's next. I want to ask you, this isn't the first time I've done a podcast with you because when I used to do a podcast with Grace, my daughter, we taught you. And I don't know if you remember this, but I asked you, because we asked everybody, if you could put together a six-aside team from

today or from history to change the world for the best. better, who would you pick? Do you remember vaguely you picked? To change the world for the better? Or was it just who I found interesting? No, it was to change the world. It was the team to change the world. All right.

Who did I pick? I'll give you a clue. Five of them were black. Okay. Mohammed Ali would have been in there. I'm a big fan of him. One of my heroes is Kwame and Krumah. Was he there?

Malcolm X is also one of my heroes. He was on the bench. He was on the bench. He was on the bench. I'll tell you. You had Nelson Mandela, Muhammad Ali, Michelle Obama,

Chimamanda Adiché, the writer. Yeah, yeah. And you had, Ghana's first president, Kwameh Krumah, and you had Mother Teresa. Oh, well,

she wasn't black. I know, she's, I said five. I think you have a verb PR. And you said, your bench, you didn't bother,

your bench was Oprah Winfrey, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. I'd always take Oprah off. You take her off. Take her off. Maybe this is the thing to bring both of you in,

just as we sort of come towards an end think about this big campaign. One of the things that's really struck me is that we're giving up basically feels like on the fundamental idea of human rights. One of things that's been happening over the last 10, 15 years is that we no longer seem to believe as societies that we have obligations to other people, that we have obligations to people who are poorer than us. And you can see it in the states where it's America first. We're not going to have anything to do with anyone else. You can see it in Britain, where we're not having to do with anyone else. You can see it in Britain, where people are actually literally going after human rights treaties,

you can see it in the way that we think about Ukraine or the way that we think about Gaza or what you think about the world. I mean, it feels as though something's happening to our moral consciousness that's different from what it was 10, 15 years ago. And I wonder whether you felt that more. Yeah, and I think as inequality rises, as things become more and more tough on an individual level, you start to think, oh, how am I able to?

to survive. I need to protect myself. I need to protect my family. And I think that has probably led to the sentiment that you're describing. And I think this is true from a national level, so within the UK, but also on a global level, that when inequality or human rights or poverty rises, it's not good for national unity. because when the inequality rises, the sentiment between the two classes, or the lack of a better word, becomes more and more heightened.

So it creates an environment that is more feverish to harm and danger. And more so, even on a global level, when inequality rises, what happens? Those who are in more disadvantaged environments, societies, what do they look to do. They looked for pastors new. They look to go to societies where I guess they foresee a better life for themselves and their families. And that leads to increase in pressure in migration.

I don't know the stats off head, but there must be, it must be a ridiculous stat in countries, particularly in the developing world, once there's a war there, how many people look to leave that place and then go to a new country, whether that's in the West or the East or whatever, but I'm sure it's stark. And one of the problems I think in the UK is that the media and the right project is, though everyone wants to come to Britain, whereas in fact, you know, this is a thing that's happening right around the world. I'm glad you raised that, though, Rory, because I've actually, this afternoon was

writing my column for the New World, and I wrote about how I really, really, really hope that the Labour Party conference, Keir Starmer, rediscovered the Keir Starver that is the passionate believer in human rights and the rule of law and international respect. Well, I think he is. I think he is. But I think that the way the debate on immigration, I really do think he is that, but I don't think we've seen that. So, for example, you know, Rory mentioned the European Convention on Human Rights. I'd like him to stand up and say, why we must and we'll never leave it, because this is what it's given us and this is where it came from. And it was Churchill and Bevan and all that stuff. So I think that what you're right about,

you know, the Labour government is having a hard time because of the economy and everything else. But I think you're also having a hard time because there's been too much in a way of playing into the people that are actually trying to destroy all these things and saying, yeah, you've got a point about the European Convention. No, you don't. And here's why. You know, you've got a point that immigration is the single biggest issue. I mean, I was doing the research on the small boats today. You follow this stuff closely. what proportion of the current immigration flow into Britain do you think comes on the small boats? Well, I know it's extremely low. It's 4%.

What percentage do the public think it is? 50%. That's a consequence of a debate that, you know, those who believe in these institutions have kind of let slip. So we've got to get it back. And this is where I think to what I was saying earlier, where I feel there's a little bit of a communication problem. I don't think the public are fully aware of the facts and even the positives of the government and the things that they are doing quite well. You know, I listened to or watched the press conference yesterday with Trump and Sir Keir.

And many of the progress is the nuances of that new trade investment or the adapted trade deal. I'm sure hasn't really got much cut through today. No, I'll tell you why, because Donald Trump made one observation where he said, you should think about using the military to sort out the small boats issues, and it's on the front page of virtually every newspaper. In other words, that's what I mean about playing into the agenda. So anyway, there we are. So what you're basically saying in Marrow is that rather than maybe going as an elected politician, you think you might go into politics as Labor's Communications Director, is that what you're saying? No, no, that's way too easy. I'll get you again.

Maro, maybe a final thing for me, which is, I guess presumably a cliche for you, but does intrigue me, which is, how do you, having had such an incredible young life, having been such a sort of superstar and a hero to so many people? What happens when you're in your 40s and your 50s? What have you learned from seeing other rugby players who are older on the next chapters? Because nothing presumably is quite the same as scoring a try in front of 80,000 people that you can do when you're 50s. or 60. I was 49 when I played with Maradona. So, I mean, it's not the end of the world retiring. Well, unfortunately, I don't score tries that often, but I definitely feel the energy and, you know, I guess the public acclaim when we are successful. And you're right, you can't replicate that. You can't replace that. But what I've observed from people, and this is not only professional

rugby players or athletes who then retire, also like retired military personnel or retired people who've been in a institution for a long period of time, I think the ones that struggle, I think you can struggle for a number of reasons, but the ones that really struggle are the ones who are looking backwards and are living in the past of what they've done. And what I want to do and how I want to be is look positively forward into the future and throw all of myself at what happens next and, you know, the type of man that I want to be, hopefully the family that I have and the career and the difference that I hope to make in that regard. So that's what I will try and do. But that is easier said than done. It's easier said than done.

So my final question, Marr, just to wrap up this B-hope thing. Give us three things that make you feel really hopeful and positive about the future. It'll probably go to the vows saying, but I'm a man of faith. I'm a Christian, so that always gives me hope. And over the last 18 months or so, I've become deeper and deeper in that faith. So that is, for me, a real sense of hope. I think, you know, despite the challenges that we face, even looking at the UK, I think sometimes we forget we're a great country. This is a great

country which has a lot of opportunities and it's a place where you would rather be if I was to roll the dice or, you know, the lottery of birth and had to pick numerous other countries to be born in. The UK would definitely be up there with one of the places you want to be because of the opportunity, because of the rule of law, because of the economy, and the access it gives you. So I think sometimes we forget that as a nation. We forget how powerful we are and the influence that this nation has. Obviously, if you compare it to a hundred years ago, you will say it's dwindling, but if you look at it as of today, it's a nation that many other parts of the world would dream of.

And, you know, I believe in the optimism of people. When I go out and meet people and talk to people and see what they're about, see what they're doing, see the ideas that are coming, there's nothing but to be hopeful and to be optimistic about the future. I think the hope is something that we control. We as humans control. The same thing, like if I put it into a rugby context, if after we lose a match, if we sit in our misery or sit in the negative. We're not hopeful for the future. You have to look for the optimism. And only through looking and believing in the optimism can things change.

Very good. We'll love to talk to you as ever. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom. Yeah. But next time we come, what I'm not offering is for you to tackle me on the rugby pitch. That doesn't sound like a pleasant experience.

Yeah, I think you know. You're right. I think you do. Well, next time I come, hopefully we can get stuck into more politics and more politics and less sport. I think you're on the track. I think the Roy Stewart book is going to be out of your mind fairly soon. But Roy, what would you say to young people going into politics now? Would you encourage them?

Would you say approach with two eyes opened? I definitely say approach with two eyes open. It's a very, very strange profession. And there's so many things that are weird about it. Your colleagues are strange. The way the parties work are strange. The way the media works is strange. social media drives it man.

If you look at the Labor Cabinet, basically they are impressive individuals. And my goodness, they look pretty pathetic once you put them together up there on a cabinet. And that was true of a lot of my conservative colleagues. I mean, a lot of them were impressive people before they went into Parliament. And it really made them less than the sum of their parts.

And I don't know what it is about our culture, but my senses in the past there were times when politics transformed pretty mediocre people and gave them a chance to really shine. And now it's almost doing the opposite. It's taking some pretty excellent people and making them look pretty diminished. And would you say, is that the culture of Westminster, that the machinery of government? Or is that the pressure of the media? Well, I mean, just take one example.

Alastra and I were before the election talking about reforms that we could bring in. and we talked about 16-year-old voting or compulsory voting like Australia. But one of the things we agreed on is these stupid reshuffles. The Conservatives had a different prison minister every year. So we said the one thing Kirstama should do if he wants to be serious and says that in his first two years, he's not going to reshuffle any of his ministers unless that minister is involved in a major scandal.

Just over a year in, he just swaps ten of them around the cabinet table. I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, how are they supposed to do their job? And he's a serious guy. And I think he'd probably listen to the podcast. In fact, I think we had the conversation with him when he's on the podcast. Yes, yes, we're going to be serious. We're not going to be like the last lot.

So what is it that makes them all behave in these ways? It's very strange. He wouldn't run a pizza restaurant like that. You wouldn't run a rugby team like that. Sometimes you do change 10 players all at once, but not very often. Well, listen, Marrow, just be positive, be hopeful. Keep the Roy Stewart negative. Is he out of your mind?

And we'll see you as a Labour MP either in the UK or in Nigeria sometime in the future. I won't be a politician in Nigeria. Okay. If I am at all right, it will be in the UK. Okay. All right. Well, it's great to talk to you. Awesome. Thank you very much. Mario, thank you for your time. Best wishes. Bye-bye. So, Marie, what do you think of my friend Marrow? He's great. It's great to have him. And tell us a little bit about you and him, though. I mean, I would have liked to hear a bit more about that at the beginning. How did you get to know them? What's the deal? And you've got this history with the British Lions that you didn't tell us enough about. That's because you don't follow sport. I mean, most rugby fans, if I, if,

Even today, if I bobbled to the rugby fans, they always say, what the earth will you do on the British and Irish Lions Tour? I went on the tour doing the communications in 2005. Just after you left the Labour government, is that right? Two years after. So I went back for the campaign in 2005. Then I went on the tour of the Lions in New Zealand, which was, you know, it was an absolute route. New Zealand won all the tests. Did they blame you personally for their last?

I got a lot of flat. The press absolutely had a field day. You weren't actually playing. I was not playing, though. It wasn't like my time. of Maradonna. I didn't play. But anyway, one of the great, really great guys on that tour, a player who's quite an experienced player, a guy called Richard Hill, who was part of the team that won the World Cup for England, who played here at Saracens. And he said, listen, we've got

this kid coming up through the ranks who's just, he's going to be amazing. This was a bit later, he said, but I think, you know, rugby's changing and I'm trying to introduce him to people that will talk to him about others dealing with other stuff, you know, probably live profile pressure, etc. So he brought him to the house. I can't remember. It was quite long time ago now. And the minute I met him, I mean, he's just such an impressive guy. He's got really deep kind of values and convictions, very, very intelligent, reads a lot. So yeah, we've stayed in touch and he's kind of risen and risen and risen. He's, I mean, there's pretty much nothing in rugby. He hasn't. The only thing really missing now is winning the World Cup. Tell us a little bit listening to him about what you noticed about how he talks about

the world now, compared to how he used to, or what caught you was unusual and what he was saying? Well, I think that because he did study SOAS and because he's also done business, he's really, really interested in trying to work out how the world works. I think he's become more openly political over time. I think that a lot of sports people find it actually, you know, they're very reticent about coming out and saying, I vote this or I vote that, or I care about this or I care about that, frankly, because a lot of them don't, which is fine because they're just, you know, full-on professional athletes. I thought it was really interesting his reaction to when you were saying, how do you think the government's doing now? He really didn't want to say anything too negative.

That I thought was where he was a little bit of a politician's answer. But he then gave the context for him, which I thought is absolutely right, where he said, look, you know, if this government fails, we are heading to a very dark place, which is my view as well. I think that's why it's like Jeremy Hunt said, you know, when we interviewed him on leading that, you know, He wants this government to succeed because there is a really dangerous alternative out there at the moment. You know a huge number of sportspeople and you love sport and you really love sports people. Do you often talk to them about politics or is it often, that's often not what you're actually talking to your friends, friends, sports? Yeah, very much so, yeah, very much.

I think, you know, some of them are very, very political. Alex Ferguson, obviously, somebody who's got a long track record in speaking up for Labor. Jorgon Klopp, ex-Liverpool manager, intensely political. I was talking this afternoon to another ex-football manager abroad who was actually literally just phoning for a rant about politics in his country. I won't say where he is because he might be looking for a job there. When you were talking about footballers, I don't think there'd be many footballers or other athletes

that talk with quite so much kind of depth about, he really, really thinks about stuff like, you know, poverty in Africa and education in Africa and what have you. But no, I think sports people get a pretty, a pretty bum rap in terms of the, you know, the sense that they don't care about the world. I think a lot of them really do. And I also think he's, you know, where he said, I think sport can be so powerful. So when we talk about the sustainable development goals, you know, whether it's to do with health, whether it's to do with education, whether it's to do with girls' education, whether

it's to do with the environment, all these different, they can fit into a lot of the SDGs. So, you know, he's a great guy. I really, and he's so kind of humble in terms of he never boasts about his achievements at all. Let's just finish maybe in honor of hope by talking about sustainable development goals, which are, as you say, pretty much a clear expression of what I think so many of us should care about in our own countries as well as abroad. I mean, the point about these goals is they're not just about what's happening in the poorest countries world, is about what we should be aiming for in our own country. And I think it's about as good a list as you can get. And actually, it's really interesting whether you could organize a government around the list.

no poverty, zero hunger, good health and well-being, quality education, gender equality, clean water and sanitation, affordable and clean energy, decent work and economic growth, industry, innovation and infrastructure, reduced inequality, sustainable cities and communities, responsible consumption production, climate action, life below water, life on land, peace justice and strong institutions, and partnership for the goals. It's a pretty good starter. I mean, there's a lot of things we could talk about. Maybe we should sometimes talk about a little bit more. There are bits that are not there because we had to get the whole world to sign up to them. You notice there's a lot of big commitment to liberal democracy there. And they're skating a little around some of the climate issues, talking about,

you know, life on land, life and water, the environment. But otherwise, when we get to the basics of what politics is about. Education, clean water, housing, poverty. It's pretty good, huh? Absolutely. And that's why I said at the start. I think there's still the best, the best kind of overall plan, if you used it as the basis of a plan, to achieve the things that we talk about the whole time. And when they were put together, we were in a very different era. Would the world put those together today? Would Trump sign them off? Would Putin, would Cheesing Pitt? Yeah, no, absolutely not. So we've got to fight for them. And that's why I think this Be Hope campaign is good.

And, you know, we love to plug our own podcasts, but look out for lots and lots of podcasts that are doing this in different parts of the world this week. Great. Well, thank you, Alastair. And I hope you get to watch a bit of the game. As it happens, I can't, because I've got to go and do something else. But I see plenty of sport. Roy, don't worry about my sports consumption. I'll be doing more tomorrow. Very good, all right. See you soon. Have a good night. Bye-bye. Take care. Bye. Hi, it's Dominic here from The Rest is History. And here is that clip that I mentioned earlier. The other thing is something else you get some Grantham.

the Methodism. And actually this to me, I think this is one of the absolute defining things of thatcherism. It's the tone, the moralistic, evangelical tone. Yeah, and the low church tone rather than the high church tone. Completely. Margaret, as a girl, had to say grace before every meal. She had to go to chapel three or four times on Sundays. Her father, as a lay preacher, went on and on and on about hard work, individualism, thrift, clean living, all of this. And this is what I think makes her politics different. There is a moralism to it, a low church moralism that is totally unlike anything that any other Tory leader says before. So in 1984, an interview with the Times, I am in politics because of the conflict between good and evil, and I believe

that in the end, good will triumph. I mean, Ted Heath could have lived to the age of 10,000, and he would never have said anything like that. It's unthinkable. Also, I mean, what's interesting is that it's giving to the left what the left often give to the right. It's casting the left as evil and the right as virtuous. And usually it's the other way around. Completely it is. I mean, you see this reflected in her archives, which are online at Thatcher Foundation website, which is brilliant, by the way, this amazing digital archive.

You can see all the notes that she would handwrite for her conference speeches. And they'd be full of all the stuff about the evils of socialism, good versus evil, what the great religions of the past. teach us, what life, you know, life is struggle. Her speechwriters would cut all this. They'd say, God, this is bonkers. But it would find its way in one way or another. And I think you're absolutely right.

She thinks socialism is not just wrong. She thinks it's morally, it's evil. It's corrupting. And people in 70s Britain, you know, they're used to thinking, socialists are well-meaning and idealistic. Maybe they're a bit deluded, but blah, blah, blah. blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, she doesn't think that. She doesn't think they are well-meaning idealistic. She thinks that they're doing the devil's work. Yeah. And that's what makes,

for her admirers, it's so invigorating. And for her critics, I mean, if you're on the left, right, and you're used to thinking yourself of yourself as the goodies, to be told, actually, you're not, you're the bad people. It's insulting. And it's why, I think one reason why people take it so personally when she sort of wades into battle. If you want to hear more, search for the rest is history wherever you get your podcasts