The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 162. Gareth Southgate: Patriotism, Leadership, and How To Inspire Young Men

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

What invaluable life-lessons did Gareth Southgate learn by missing a high profile penalty in the Euro 96 semi-finals? Does the former England manager see a future for himself in politics? How should we teach resilience and leadership to the next generation of men? Alastair and Rory are joined by former England manager Sir Gareth Southgate to answer all this and more.  Gift The Rest Is Politics Plus this Christmas - give someone a whole year of Rory and Alastair’s miniseries, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, an exclusive members’ newsletter, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. Just go to https://therestispolitics.supportingcast.fm/gifts And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestispolitics.com For Leading listeners, there’s free access to the Wordsmith Academy - plus their report on the future of legal skills. Visit https://www.wordsmith.ai/politics To save your company time and money, open a Revolut Business account today via https://get.revolut.com/z4lF/leading, and add money to your account by 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. This offer’s available for New Business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and Terms & Conditions apply. For US customers, Revolut is not a bank. Banking services and card issuance are provided by Lead Bank, Member FDIC. Visa® and Mastercard® cards issued under license. Funds are FDIC insured up to $250,000 through Lead Bank, in the event Lead Bank fails. Fees may apply. See full terms in description. For Irish customers, Revolut Bank UAB is authorised and regulated by the Bank of Lithuania in the Republic of Lithuania and by the European Central Bank and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. For AU customers, consider PDS & TMD at revolut.com/en-AU. Revolut Payments Australia Pty Ltd (AFSL 517589). Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Charlie Rodwell  Producer: Alice Horrell Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Head of Politics: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the rest is politics.com. One of the things that you went through, which was incredibly traumatising, was this famous missed penalty. For 20 years, it was the main thing everyone knew about you. The whole country are on a tidal wave of hope and enjoyment. At that moment, I'm thinking, you know, I've now been responsible for this whole. thing finishing and how am I ever going to get over this? So I've got the media camped on my doorstep. It took me three days to realize I've got to get out of the country here. The role I had

was one of the top five in terms of profile and pressure. We hadn't won a knockout game in 10 years. They were being criticised for what had happened in my generation. So actually we talked about creating our own history a lot to free up the current players from what had gone wrong in the past and to say, look, this is your moment in time, write your own history. You were going into a political space with your life now, whether that's in the Commons or the laws. Good grief. Don't you think I've had enough misery? Well, I don't know. I'm just asking it. This episode is brought to you by Wordsmith, AI. And increasingly, of course, in all the

organisations we work in, we can get massively slowed up by the paperwork, the processes, the forms, the legal advice. And that's why, in business today, it's all of us. Legal teams, companies are facing a choice. Lead the AI shift or risk being left behind. And companies like Trust Pilot, Deliveroo, SkyScanner are already leading the way, with Wordsmith AI alongside them. It's like giving every lawyer an invisible paralegal, somebody who knows their history, drafts the first pass, and frees up hours for complex work. Wordsmith handles the routines so that the lawyers can focus on the bigger issues. Crucially, this isn't at the moment something that's replacing lawyers. It's something that's taking out

the more boring routine task so they can really use their expertise, their experience and their human judgment in the law. And it wasn't built in Silicon Valley. It was built like so many great things in history in Scotland, now benefiting companies worldwide. Shifts already happening. Wordsmith is helping legal teams around the world with clarity and confidence. There's free access to the Wordsmith Academy, plus their report on the future of legal skills. Visit wordsmith.a.ai slash politics. Welcome to the Restor's Politics Leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Esther Campbell.

And we are with none other than Gareth Southgate. Now, if you add Gareth Southgate's 57 caps as a player for England and 102 matches as manager, he becomes a record breaker. Nobody else has taken part in so many England internationals, 150 in total. Unlike the women's team, he did not bring a trophy home, to in so cure England of its 1966 obsession, but he did get closer than any of his predecessors and in so doing became much more than a manager and much more than a sporting figure. He's also an important cultural voice in the country. How many football managers have

had plays written about them and been played by Joseph Fienes. And he's now written a book, the same title as the play, Dear England, which is less a football memoir, more in a way, I'd be interested to know how you describe it in a minute, Garret, but more a leadership manual, what you learned about yourself as a leader, what you learned about the country, and how you're now going to try and put some of those learnings into practice in a very, what I sense is a very different sort of life to the one that you've led. So thank you very much for being here. Thank you for having me.

And, Gareth, if I can start, background, one of the things that comes across in the book, it's such a beautiful book, and I'd really recommend it for people, and it's particularly good on leadership, which I'm looking forward to talking to you a great deal about. But one thing that you observe is that as a young man, sort of 12, 13 year old, you sometimes felt a little bit out of place in terms of your personality and background with other young footballers. Tell us a little bit about how you felt your background was a little bit different to others, or maybe your personality was a little bit different to the other people you were playing with. Yeah, my first, well, I was a schoolboy at Southampton as a kid, and I was released at 13.

and the local club to us was Crystal Palace, but that was 25 miles from where I lived. So I used to have to get two trains to get to training. And anybody that knows South London knows there's a lot of streetwise kids. I was at school in Sussex down in Crawley, normal comprehensive, 1,500 kids, but I was always a bit of an introvert. I was, I suppose, in football terms, pretty sensibly.

not a high bar I accept and so yeah I didn't naturally fit with some of the other lads in the dressing room I got my eight O levels failed my English literature dismally but my mum wanted me to stay and do A levels but I didn't think that was an option I needed to throw myself into the into the game otherwise I wouldn't have progressed and tell us a little bit about your mother about your father about your grandfather? Well, I would view it as a very normal childhood, but what I realize now is normal, you know, is something that we shouldn't take for granted.

We did lots of courses on youth development when I was at the FA, and one of the things that they talk about is the importance of attachment theory. So the early years of a child's life that you feel love gives you confidence, and I think helps you with relationships throughout your life, trust, You know, I worked with lots of boys who building trust is a key area. And it's something I took for normality with my parents. They were supportive, not pushy. They wanted me to commit to my education, but also back me with my sport.

My grandfather was ex-Royal Marines. So there were little things that I think as a kid, you listen. Sometimes you listen to what your parents say, but you definitely observe their behaviours. You pick up, you mimic things. He used to be polishing his shoes every morning. He was always in a tie. He'd always take his hat off.

When he'd walk past ladies in the street, he'd give his seat up on the bus. So there are things that I take as normal behaviors that I would expect from people that I recognised now I was role modelling what they were doing, basically. It's interesting this issue of role models, because I feel too much pressure is put on footballers

to somehow accept that because they're very well-paid, very successful footballers, that they have to be role-models. You say definitively in the book that if you're playing for England football team, you are a role model. Is that fair? Well, I think you're right to suggest that

is that the right place to look for our role models? These are guys that have committed have a skill in one area. They are going to make a... mistakes, they're young men, they're going to make errors in judgment, but they're going to have influence on young people, the profile and their visibility and the platform they have now. They're going to have influence on people. So they have to accept, whilst I would argue, that's not where we should necessarily be looking for role models, for certain parts of the

population, certain communities, they are going to be role models. I used to talk to the boys when they got their first cap. This is going to mean so much to you, your family. family, but also the community that you've come from, because people will look at them and say that I can achieve that. I might be able to achieve that. There is a way out of the estate I live in or the area I live in. Arson Vanger, the great Arsenal manager, I remember saying to me when we were looking at stuff together in prisons, talked about how much pressure there is on young people trying to become professional footballers and how devastating it is if you're not selected, if you don't make it. In fact, he pointed out that in France, at least, a lot of people who've gotten serious trouble, including some people who got involved in terrorist incidents, had been. professional footballers who didn't quite make it. And he was really worried about, you know, what is the system around people who don't make it to the very top, but were very, very close to doing so

and put in years of their life into that effort. Yeah, I don't think we deal with that very well as a game. I mean, there's two points at which you are likely to exit a life in sport. One is, like any talent pathway, rejection early, and that can have a devastating effect on someone's life. and the other is retirement at whatever point that comes and you've got to find a new identity and a new way forward. And the game takes, if you think about every club, 92 clubs,

most take 15 kids every year. So that's across six or seven age bands from 10 upwards. That's a huge number of kids in the system. And in the Premier League every Saturday, only 220 players start. And you're talking about a couple of thousand in the academy system. And we're not now competing, you know, when I started, if you're one of the best in Britain, you were in the Premier League. Now that's global.

So most Premier League teams probably have two, maybe three English qualified players starting. So this talent pathway for kids is even more difficult. And we should talk to kids more about what they don't want to hear is you might not make it. they're not going to consider that but I think if we said look if you're going to be a professional sportsman or woman you're going to have a second career so let's frame that differently

and think about how you might prepare for that next part of your life as well because that's coming at some point when you were a young kid at South London and you were preparing for your own levels you weren't listening to that you wouldn't listen to that well I might have listened if it was pitched in the way that there's going to be

something after this so keep all those options open because as a young player I did go and write for the local newspaper. My youth coach was in commercial property. So I'd go and in the afternoon he had me measuring up shops to do rent reviews and things. So I was lucky that I had a mentor who guided me in a different way and didn't just bombard me with football. Was Alan Smith? It was, yeah, yeah.

And he told you to go off and be a travel agent? He did. Or an estate agent because he had a property background. There's no disrespect to travel agents, clearly. Was that about him saying, he was worried you weren't tough enough. Yeah, basically. Yeah, he thought, and he was right,

I was physically still maturing, and I found the transition from school boy football to this being a job and a living and people's livelihood depending on it, because we're going back to a time when you needed the win bonus to pay your mortgage. So, you know, that cut-throat nature of it took a lot of adaptation for me.

This may be an unfair question. I'm just trying to understand the history of how it changed. My perception is that the great players of the 60s, 70s were national stars but didn't make much money. Today they make a huge amount. And then somewhere around your career, we're beginning to get into the world of David Beckham and these kind of things.

Yeah. Can you sort of explain what happened with money and was it to do with suddenly new television contracts and new income? What's the rough story of how this evolved? Yeah, absolutely. So we went from a game where the star players would be on the bus home with fans. and I was very fortunate. I played at a time where I had the enjoyment of the profile being lower

when I was a young idiot going out for a drink after a game. But then I benefited from the start of the Premier League and the money that came into the game. And that's purely television contracts. You know, the success of the Premier League itself, which is a brilliant global product for us as a country, is entirely down to the television contracts. and then that's brought investment from around the world

people that want to be part of that story. And maybe this is stupid thing, and Alastair can contribute me this. So, I mean, I obviously see your period playing as being a really big moment, but that may just be my age. Was there something particularly about that moment in the early 90s, mid-90s,

which was distinctive in English football? They rebranded the top division, but I was thinking, well, primarily, we didn't have, not many people had Sky Television, then. So it was the beginning of Sky and of course it's worked brilliantly for Sky to have that product. But I just thought, well, this is a rebranding and, you know, different take, cheerleaders on the pitch. But actually the facilities started to be updated, the investment. I mean, David

Dean's brilliant at talking about all of this, isn't they? He was behind that move to a different stage of our lives. I think it was also culturally and politically, there was sort of, there was this, I mean, the Premier League became a big part of the whole Cool Britannia brand. I mean, there was a sense that we were leading, really getting to the top in something very, very important. I just wondered, though, is when you became England manager. So you were a Premier League manager. I enjoyed your little reference to Alex Ferguson trying to stop you, get the job at Middlesbrough. But you became a Premier League manager, accepted that you were probably too young to be doing that job at the time.

But when you become the England manager, by then the England manager, by then the English, the manager's job is made much, much more difficult because of the number of international players and also the power of the Premier League clubs. Definitely. So how do you balance that when you're actually trying to do the job? Yeah, with great difficulty because international football for the clubs is just a hindrance, really. You know, if you're an owner or a manager of a Premier League club, the only thing that can

really happen when your player goes away is he comes back injured. So, you know, now that's not quite true Because if you're a Burnley And we might as well come to this, Rory Because half of my life as England manager Was accepting texts from Alastair recommending Burnley's goalkeeper Whoever it was at the time

Because I did have a string of a good one You must pick Heaton Is it three months later My God, this Pope's miles better than Heaton I never said he was better They're both far better than Joe Hart Then they signed Joe Hart. We should be picking Joe Hart.

So I didn't know where I was. But the reality of that is... I was right, though, would they? Well, they all play for England. They did, yeah? Well, because I was prepared to pick players outside the top six country to... But the reality of a decision like that

for a Burnley or a Crystal Palace is you're adding about £10 million to the value of the player. Right. So that's a big deal when they play for England. So for some of the smaller clubs, that is significant. They're delighted to see their player get picked for England. But if it's Manchester City, it's not the same.

Well, what's the benefit? You know, I think Pep's used to his players going on international duty. It's part of his job. He understands that he's always been at big clubs. But there's very little benefit. Presume because most of his players are playing internationally for someone, right? Exactly. Yeah.

So he wouldn't, you know, all his players are gone for the week. They'd close the training ground down. They'd have a break. But he'll be watching all of those games. Are they going to come back in the right mindset? Are they going to come back injured? So that is a problem. for a club and so you're constantly a bit of tension with the clubs over those decisions.

And how much time can you get to train them? How much time can you get them to have them together? No, we have about 50 days a year. So you've got to build a culture, a way of playing. It's why international football is never quite as fluid and cohesive as club, because you've got to cover the basics, really. What are the basic principles that we can get to? And it's hard to build the relationships between the players that they automatically have at a club football where they're training together every day and they're working on similar patterns of play every day. And are the nations that do better, the countries that have historically dominated the World Cup,

have they tended to have a slightly different, I don't know, cultural or historical or club relationship that allows them to do that a bit better? Well, I think one of the things they've had, which we've had in the last few years, is good junior national teams. So there's been a focus in Spain, in Germany over the years on success at junior national level, which I was fortunate in my time there to have a national centre, St George's Park. That was a great catalyst for it feeling like a club. James Trafford, Burley goalkeeper, winning your trophy.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And bought him in the fortune in the transfer market to prove my point. But also, I think those countries are very serious about international football. And there's a little bit of us still here that thinks, well, we can't wait for the Premier League to come back. So the man in the street really focuses on England at the moment they play. They don't think about all the issues that we're thinking about for the other 300 days of the year. And then they expect them to be absolutely world-class for that moment.

Have you always had these political skills that clearly you needed to manage some of those difficult relationships with managers, with players who maybe didn't want to give their role because they were worried about being injured or worried about the relationship with a club, with the sort of political, small people, political authorities in football? When you were different as a player, was that part of the difference that you kind of understood these relationships had to be managed? Well, I'd always captained every club. So, you know, for all the flaws I have, I think I've got quite good emotional intelligence. And I had to captain players that were a decade older than me and realize that, okay, they're not going to be happy with that dynamic at the start. So I've got to, I mean, I'm sure you'd have had that in the army. You'd have been leading older soldiers. So how do I find the right connections?

How do I recognize, you know, how do I walk in their shoes? And then I was exposed to some of that by working in youth development at the FA and recognising the dynamics with UEFA, with FIFA, that as a nation we viewed quite arrogantly in a football sense over the years. We invented the game. We're the FA, not the English FA for years. You know, there are other FAAs out there. Wonder World Cup in 1966.

Correct. So when we started to deal with those organisations, I felt it was important to show a bit more humility because the way to get things done isn't necessarily just to shout from the sidelines and you know you've got to diplomatically work in the right way get votes you know i've went i traveled up and down the country trying to get changes to youth football and that was like pushing a boulder up a hill for something that in our head was so obviously common sense was that was that the men in blazers so well well no that was just people at county fays we were We wanted kids on smaller pitches so that they'd get more touches of the ball to develop better skills.

We had eight-year-olds in full-size goals, you know, for a poor goalkeeper. So it didn't require a great amount of skill to put a ball in the top. And you'd travel, and people would literally say, yeah, but we played 11 v-11 on full-size pitches when we won the World Cup. So why do we need to change? And you had to slowly get their buy-in and explain why. And I think there are ways, I think it's interesting in, you know, your backgrounds in politics, how do you affect change and how do you get buy-in to some of these things and diplomacy has to be part of it, I think. I was wondering whether this could be a good

transition to the theme of the book, which is leadership. It's also something Alice has written a lot about. But I wonder whether we could sort of move on to that part of the conversation with you framing what some of the fundamental lessons of leadership you have drawn. Remind us of what you concluded about leadership. I think that, you know, the role I had was arguably one of the top five in terms of profile and pressure in the country. And, I mean, there are so many layers to that, but I think the complexities of it, you know, I don't know enough about politics, policies.

My son studies politics. He's been at Kings and now at LSE. But so I know I'm light years behind on that. But what I recognize is that people see simple solutions and offer simple solutions to problems. And yet there are all these complex things going on behind any decision. You mean people who think the solution to all your problems is to hire the Burnley goalkeeper? Correct. But a good example would be, you know, we want change.

So you want to change football manager at your club. But all of the issues are still there at the club. And, you know, you see that in government. You know, people would push for a change of government tomorrow. But actually, all the fundamental issues are still there. Now, somebody else has got to pick up all those issues and find a way of making it work. What the change of manager brings is hope. Because people short-term think, get that idea out and we'll get a new person in, and everything will change.

What we realize is that still fundamentally, you've got to try and affect these changes, and that needs time. And to come back to the book, there were a couple of first two principles that struck me. One of them was about a certain kind of toughness as standing up for yourself not being too buffeted. And I think you used Terry Venables as an example of that. He just sort of gave the impression when he was being assaulted by the press that he had kind of hide like a rhinoceros. And he was just going to want to forward. And then the second one was a nice one about understanding who you are as a person and being authentic to that. You had a good example of Sven Gore and Erickson coming on in half time when things were going catastrophically badly.

and you were expecting some Churchillian speech and he was really kind of low-key and Swedish and at the time you were really sort of slightly critical of that because you lost the match but afterwards you thought actually maybe that is actually who he was and that was a better form of leadership tell us about those two things

yeah definitely I think there's sometimes pressure to behave differently you know people want very often in football they want a manager who's going to jump up and down on the touchline show what they would consider passion as if that person is more passionate and driven than somebody that carries themselves differently.

And I think there's people feel the pressure to behave differently in a leadership position. I think you've got to flex your style as well. So although people would have a perception of how I am, you know, it's not all cuddles. It's not all hugs and feel good. You stamped on Roy Keene. Well, he stamped on me. But my tackle leading up to that wasn't a clever one. But you've got to stand your ground.

You know, you have to flex style. You have to make tough decisions. You have to stand by what you believe in. You know, in a leadership position. People will talk about, why didn't we do this? Why didn't we change that? But actually, you know, I believe one of the reasons we got as far as we did was because of stuck to my beliefs.

And I wasn't swayed by populist opinions. And no, I know the details we're dealing with. I've got all the information. Nobody else has all the information on these players. I study them more closely than anybody else and my team, because the team around you is crucial. And this is the way we believe we can get as far as we did. Now, maybe that was wrong in a different way would have got us a trophy,

but maybe a different way would have got us knocked out far earlier in all those tournaments. Were there any figures and leadership outside of football that you, as you were kind of developing as a leader, that you looked to and thought, I can learn something from him, I can learn something from her, the way that they are leading in their role. I'm just fascinated by how people present themselves at all times. So, you know, unfortunately, I'm one of those people that's always aligning. What a book they read or a podcast I listen to or to, okay, how does that fit into the problems I'm facing?

So I was at a small event with Obama a couple of weeks ago. and I thought the way he communicated was incredible. You know, he understood the power. Firstly, the pace of how he spoke. I mean, in some sense, he felt it was a little bit slow. It can be very slow, can't you. But he found himself leaning in and waiting for what was coming. But then he knew the impact of every word he delivered.

So he never at any point criticised. directly the current incumbent of the position he held. He did last night. And yet he eviscerated him in his own way. But he knew that, you know, I've got a responsibility here. And when you're in those leadership positions, and, you know, I've sat in press conferences in foreign countries, and I'm a representative of our country.

And I, you know, if I deliver the wrong messages in those moments, there are problems for government. There are problems for bigger picture things. So you do have a responsibility with every. word you use, when you're in those positions of high profile or power, and how you use that power is, I think, incredibly important. And I thought that snapshot of Obama in a private reception, but, you know, he talked about the power of listening to other people's views. We won't always agree, but we can learn. And in a time where I think we have this binary

arguments and no nuance, I just think that sort of message is so important. One of the things that you went through, which was incredibly traumatizing, was this famous mispenalty. And it was something that for 20 years, it was the main thing everyone knew about you. And people would shout at you out of car windows. The media went completely ballistic on you. And that is something that some people are unlucky enough to experience in public life. It's completely devastating what happens. It happened to you.

It happens, of course, to certain politicians and people. Firstly, tell us what it felt like and how difficult that can feel. And then tell us a little bit of how you came through that experience. But start with actually the raw experience of it. The moment itself, the whole country are on a tidal wave of hope and enjoyment. And, I mean, maybe not you, Alastair, obviously. I forgot a great match that we beat Scotland. But at that moment, going to bed that night,

I'm thinking, you know, I've now been responsible for this whole thing finishing. And how am I ever going to get over this? For the next few nights, I've got the media camped on my doorstep, which in those days was only 10 yards from the pavement. Because, you know, unfortunately, I ended a little bit more as we went through. But they were there for three days. And in those days, you know, it took me three days to realize I've got to get out of the country here. And you literally had to get out of the country because it was getting impossible.

Yeah, because we couldn't move. So I'm just trying to want to say, because with Renafin and High said, it seems unbelievably unfair. But basically, half the country was sort of implying that you'd done something idiotic and they could have done better or something. Well, in the end, the missed penalty was the reason that we lost the game. But of course, a lot of other things have to play out. You know, the players that played for me, I would have been saying, well, the next one would still have had to be scored and then we'd have had to win the final and we're still quite a long way away. But also then my own reflection was, so I've got to rebuild. I've got to find the resilience.

And sorry, I'm just so trying to get into this bit deeper, but part of it is the sense that they're projecting that you're inadequate. Yes. That the manager should never have selected you. Why the hell did they put on Gareth? I mean, I think the decision making around the penalties then was different. Not every game went to penalty shootouts like it does now or not as many. So the processes weren't the same.

I'd actually had a brilliant tournament. It was my first tournament. I'd played at a really high level. But ultimately I've failed to execute a skill under pressure that I wasn't prepared for. And that had knocked us out of the tournament. Who was good at dealing with you then? Well, Stuart Pierce was incredibly helpful. I mean, he'd lived that moment himself.

He's an incredible character anyway. You know, he's selfless. He'll put himself forward. You know, we didn't know each other before we were with England. We were at two different clubs. We actually, you know, a lot of difference between us. But we found a lot of connection and he's a huge patriot, you know, that night after the game at Wembley, I had dinner with him and he talked about what he'd lived through and he predicted a lot of the things that were going to happen. But he said, you'll come through, you will be a stronger person for this.

And I hope that, you know, my story over the last 10 years has shown young people that, you know, resilience is so important. And I think we have to really focus on that with young people today. for lots of different reasons they don't seem as resilient and it's such an important factor in life were there ever moments where you thought actually I'm just going to give up and hide my head and I can never appear in public again

this is the end of everything I think in football because you face regular disappointments you do become a bit more hardened but I spent definitely the next six months of my England career worrying about making another mistake which is the worst mindset

to go into a performance in If you're worried about what might go wrong, you're never going to perform at your best. And I ended up being dropped by England, which for me was then rock bottom, if you like. I was able to contextualize this probably the worst thing professionally that will ever happen to me. And I've come through it. So now actually that gives me freedom to go and attack the rest of my life, if you like, in football. And that was the mindset I tried to instill in the team when I took over. We had this disconnect with the public.

We hadn't won a knockout game in 10 years. They were being criticized for what had happened in my generation, and they weren't responsible for what happened when I played. So actually, if you followed the language around our team, we talked about creating our own history a lot, and that was to free up the current players from what had gone wrong in the past, and to say, look, this is your moment in time. Write your own stories, write your own history.

Okay, Alastair, Gareth. Quick break and then back for more. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers, The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung vax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer. It builds on TracerX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer

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forward slash the rest is science. Hi everybody, it's Dominic Samarik here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics, when Rory was away and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Rest is History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s. appeared with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy,

when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise, people are arguing about Europe, the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain

that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we'll be looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a colossal figure in our political life even now,

whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory. and Alistair will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time,

to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end. end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought you by Revoluted Business, the all-in-one business account to manage your finances. Our world runs on exchange, trade, tax, tariffs, the quiet machinery that keeps everything moving. And everything is moving faster now. Ideas,

goods, people, crossing continents and seconds, but money still takes the scenic route, tripping over red tape and hidden fees, and that's where Revoluted business comes in. Over 30 currencies sent to more than 150 countries at the same interbank rates that banks use during market hours within plan allowance, no mystery markups. You can hold exchange and pay from one place. Local account details means clients in New York, Sydney or Dublin get paid fast without the waiting or the worry. Business across borders done the way that politics so rarely is, efficiently. Open a Revute Business account today by scanning the QR code on screen or via the link in description and add money by the 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or the equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan, offerer available for new

business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and terms and conditions apply. So your penalty in 1996 and the subsequent mispenalties by three of the England players that play for, essentially becomes the arc of James Graham's play, Dear England. And that title comes from a letter that you wrote, as it were, to the country. Now, writing a letter to the country is a conscious act of leadership. So I'd just be interested in what process was going through your mind that you thought that was the right thing to do, a good thing to do. and I guess while you did it. I think we have to take a little step back to what had happened to us as a team.

So there was a moment we played in Montenegro, and right at the end of the game, Danny Rose, one of our players, made a ridiculous tackle. We were winning 5-0. He got a yellow card, and I'd been really strong with the team about the need for discipline because we've gone out of World Cups because of red cards. So I hammered him in the dressing room afterwards.

Which you didn't often do? No, but you do flex your style at times. When I left the dress room, I'd found out that during the game, Danny and Rahim Sterling had been racially abused. It was one of those stadiums where there were sections on the far side. You couldn't hear from opposite touchline, but some of the television audio mics had picked things up.

What bothered me was that we had a player who didn't want to come back and explain what had happened, that as a talk to him afterwards was, you know, he must have experienced this his whole life. You know, Danny's a young black player growing up in Yorkshire. Goodness knows what he faced on the pitches on a Sunday morning going through his journey. And he felt so let down by the system and couldn't even come to his manager and say, but look, this was going on. That had a huge impact on me.

We then lived through the George Floyd episode and staff at the FA talking about how disaffected they felt about lack of representation in the hierarchy, in the board. We had to prepare for a game in Bulgaria where we knew there was likely to be racism on the pitch and we had really open conversations as a team about how we were going to deal with that, which I felt was hugely powerful for us because I think our black players felt supported. They felt that this issue was being recognised and slowly we were involved in things that we hadn't set out to do. but in trying to keep a unity as a team,

I think it had a big impact on broader communities. You know, people from minority communities have come to me and said how important they felt those messages and those stances we took were. And that was never an attempt to be political or divisive and naturally you support unity and you disaffect some communities

at the same time. So I then lost support from certain sections of our communities. The start point was how do we protect our players? How do we show them that, you know, togetherness matters that we're not prepared to accept racism?

Should you say, because we mentioned Venga, I remember what's talking about us in Venger and he said that when he's doing an interview, his primary audience is always his players. So was Dear England as much about a message to your players as it was to the country? Definitely. I mean, it emanated

from an interview I gave to the Players Tribune website. And the guy that did the interview came back and said, look, I think this would be really powerful if you put it into a letter. You know, as with all these things, it's not just me that should take credit for that. There's people who have ideas. And I wanted to talk about my patriotism, but also recognize that actually our country is changing.

The dynamics of our country are changing. But for a lot of our players, they're incredibly proud to play for England. Well, you had Mara Rotoji on. He was incredibly proud of his Nigerian roots, and both things are possible. You know, Bukaiusakao would be like that. Mark Goui would be like that with his roots.

And that is our modern country. You know, you can have both those positions. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But you think there's been a bit of a backlash against it. So, like, let's talk about flags. I mean, I remember back in 1966, insofar as flags were a thing, it tended, even with England, it tended to be the union flag.

And then the BMP kind of got hold of the flag. And then now the flag of St George has become very much, you know, identified with football. And you've had this, you know, if you've been to Bernie recently, there are union flags and flags of St. George on virtually every lamp post. It was the same in Rotherham, Doncaster was there recently. And I just wonder whether you worry about the way the flag right now is being, is being used to divide as opposed to do what you were trying to do, which was bring people together. Well, my view is the flag should unify people. So its meaning will be personal to everybody.

I'm amazed we don't celebrate St George's Day more. We celebrate St Patrick's Day. We don't celebrate St. George's Day. I'm a proud Englishman. Why don't we do that, actually? You know, the flag to me means an awful lot. There's a broader argument going on that we'll never land on agreement with various stances on what that should be. But what I saw when we played was the unity that the team, you know, the beauty about England is a big Premier League game has an audience of 4 million in our country. Our big nights are 30 million. Nan, granddad, you know, you can remember where you were on those nights and it brings communities together.

So I have seen the power that can come. And we've got to try and change the narrative in our country. One of the things that's so disturbing, I guess, is recent polling suggests that the British right is more anti-emigrant than MAGA than the Trump supporters. The polling I just looking at, the FT just did. Something like 80% of the British right think that we risk losing our national identity if we're too open from people from all over the world. 70% say it's bad for society of white people decline as the share of the population. that's 70% compared to only 40% of MAGA supporters, Trump supporters think that. And of course, you know, Tommy Robinson really begins in football.

So there's a really interesting question. Why, despite all that you're saying about how the Premier League's so diverse, the England teams so diverse, a lot of people who are hardcore football supporters and love it are increasingly anti-diversity. And what's this dynamic about? Yeah, it's a question I'm probably not qualified to fully understand. But what I would say about football and football supporters for decades,

they are a representation of broader community. So although people would say, oh, it's football fans, I don't think that's actually correct. I think that is where certain communities are. Look, we're in difficult economic times. So to go back to Obama a couple of weeks ago, you know, he talked brilliantly about that disunity, that discord, those extreme views are always slightly under the surface.

And there are certain moments when, you know, there's economic struggle or whatever that might be where these things come to the fore and bubble up. And that's clearly where we're at. There's disaffection. There's a reason why people are unhappy. And, you know, we have to acknowledge that. We can't be dismissive of opportunities and hope for young people. All nations are going to be more transient.

And immigration for every country in the world, you'll have a clear review on this. But again, because I listen to you guys a lot, you talked about the Czech Republic and the number of Ukrainian, what were they going to do, close the doors to those hundreds of thousands of people coming in. So it's incredibly complicated. There is no simple solution to any of that. And they're the moments where I look at Prime Minister's role and think,

goodness me, good luck with all of that, because it was hard enough just to get a left back and a right back together. You said in the book that there was a point where your daughter gave you the book, Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Rennie Eddo Lodge, and you said, I read it and it made a big impact on you. I was interesting that. Was that a point at which was some of the black players getting worried about the way that that debate was taking over the debate within the team?

Was that what was happening then? No, no. That was actually we had a team. town hall with FAA staff, so not just people that work with the England team, but broader FAA. And this was the moment when they talked about the lack of representation in leading positions. And they talked a lot about white privilege. Initially, I was a bit offended because I thought, you know, as you do as a naive white bloke, I've worked bloody hard to get where I have.

Do you realize how hard that's been? And then slowly, as I talked to my daughter, read the book, you suddenly realized, these moments where I just am able to walk down the street and not be conscious of my colour. There are other levels of things here that I haven't really had to consider. So what I said about Danny Rose growing up playing in Yorkshire, you know, those confrontational moments that people from minority communities face all the time that I never have to think about at all. So it was more of that side of things that it made me, you know,

it did lead me towards some of the other. standpoints we took for broader unity, I suppose. How political are you? Well, it fascinates me. Like, I'm fascinated by the leadership aspect of it, because clearly, you're never going to vote anything other than Labour. Roy's never going to be anything other than the other side. But there's a lot of, there are people who are kind of waiting to see, right,

who's going to really impress us over the next period of time? Who do we want to lead us through? The majority of the country, a little bit like you like to think you know about football, but you don't really know any of the detail. Don't say that to him. That's where I am on politics. I've got short diet's tie here. How can you even say that?

No, I get that. I don't know anywhere near enough about all the policies and the impact of it. But you're going into a political space with your life now. I don't mean partly. But you're talking about role modelling. You're talking about the challenges facing young men. You're addressing issues like pornography and mentoring and all this stuff. You've been talking about your Dimbabbleby Lecture.

really made an impact. I mean, the truth is if you wanted to go into politics, there's a wide door open, whether that's in the Commons or the Lords. Good grief. Don't you think I've had enough misery? Well, I don't know. I'm just asking. I'm just asking whether that would ever cross your mind. No. And I can see how they would gain some support for certain views, but I said you wanted to make a difference. You could also make a difference. I do. Yeah, I do want to make a difference. But I think I've met, you know, there were five prime ministers in my time as England I've also met Tony and John Major and David Cameron. So, you know, I'm an awareness of that world.

Also, we worked very closely with Sir Michael Barber. He was on an advisory panel for us. His insight into how difficult it is to get things done, how it's very often the focus is on getting elected, but then when you're in power, it's so hard to, you know, how are you going to actually implement things? And I could relate to all of that. So I think it would be a very naive person at 55 to think he could

turn his hands to politics and they have any impact. But I do want to help my country to be better. And I do, I hate the narrative when I turn the television on every morning. Our country's gone to the dogs. We should all be moving out. You know, we've got to give young people hope. And we've got so much talent. And we're still a place where people, because of our legal system, want to build businesses. It's such an attractive place to come still. You know, surely we've got to get that message out rather than all wear ourselves down with the other, the, the other message. I wanted to finish with the question of how people move on from early success or how people

think about retirement. I mean, you're right at the most extreme example of this. You're being an industry where people are godlike heroes in their 20s and then by their late 30s have lost the entire central meaning, purpose, glory of their lives. But I guess every human being as they age goes through some verily. of this as they moved towards retirement earlier or later. How do you find when you're talking to footballists about what it means to have purpose and meaning in your life and how you make the transition from a job that is everything to you that gave you so much excitement, stimulation,

reward, joy, fame into a stage where all that's gone and how do you keep living? I mean, we discussed earlier this transition for athletes that their whole identity is around being an athlete of some sort. And then they struggle for routine. They struggle for connection with people. Very often marriage is split. Why do they struggle with connection with people? Well, because for their whole lives,

every hour of their day has been basically mapped out for them. And they've been socially in a dressing room. They've been part of something, part of a clear community. And then you're on your own. You know, I had a brief period because I went straight from playing to managing overnight. So I didn't have to have that reflection. But when I was sacked at Middlesbrough, it's the first time in my life I'd been unemployed. First time in my life I'd been at home with the family there, but actually what's dad doing?

You know, he's in the way, frankly. I'm the only bloke in the country that gets encouraged to go and play golf now. How do I find purpose in my life? I'd always been working towards something. And that's now at this moment of my life, that's the challenge I've found. Okay, I've had a very high profile role. and because it was for my country, it had real purpose. How do I replace that?

And that is going to be very hard if I'm just looking in football because, you know, club situations, it all feels very small after the role I've had. So I found it fascinating talking to those ex-prime ministers. What did you do next? You had the biggest job. How do you plan the next stage of your life? Think I can make a difference because of the role I had gives me a profile

that might be able to connect people around this area of working with young people and mentoring and maybe providing youth spaces for kids to go to after school. So I feel like this is a point of my life to take a different direction and give something back in a different way. And I don't think that has to be politicised. I think that should be apolitical. And I did go and see Keir about this after Dimbleby. And what impressed me was that he saw that.

the same way. You know, this has got to stand a cross party. It's not something that's just a vote winner for him. It's something that he felt, you know, okay, how do we affect this? And kind of come back when you've come up with some ideas. So doing a lot of research onto what those ideas should be. My final question, did you enjoy the process of writing a book, which is I say, is a very different sort of book. Most ex-footballers don't write this sort of book. And I just wonder what you learned about yourself in that. Because, you know, Roy and I both written quite a lot of books, and it's always quite a lonely process. And you've got to work out, it's about what you leave out as well as what you put in.

Might be there be more in the same vein? I'm not sure because I think with this one, I was very clear having worked closely with a lot of business leaders, coaches in other sports, that a lot of the leadership aspects cross all walks of life, schools, businesses. the technical details are different, but generally you're building teams, you're managing people, you're building culture, you're performing under pressure.

Everywhere I travel, people are facing those difficulties. Leadership in the modern world with social media, with media, I don't think it's ever been more difficult because there's an instant reaction to everything 24 hours a day. So hard for people in those high-profile leadership positions.

You know, the more we're not. share about those things and people say, yeah, I'm not the only one feeling that way. Because very often I'd travel and meet other coaches, sports leaders, Toto Wolf, Dave Breltsford, all these people. Right, God, they are actually facing the same problems I am. That in itself was reassuring. Everybody had insecurities really, deep down.

Nobody really wanted to admit to them. And I'm not afraid to throw that out there because I think it will help other people. young leaders who think, I'm not ready, can I really do it? God, I never thought I'd be England manager. If I can be England manager, anybody can go and do anything. Let's trust can be prime minister, I think. You can be prime minister as well. My final, final question, do you not think Jack Court was worth more than one cap?

Which you mind explaining to the listeners who the hell this is? That's a great point, Bore. So Jack Court was a very good midfield player for Burnley. Now coach. Now coach. and Burnley's last midfield player to play for England would have been I don't know 1960s or something like that

Interestingly Jack Hawke's dad used to scout for us with the under 21s Alan used to play for Wimbledon and Sheffield United And when he was picked he told Jack Enjoy this because this will be your first and your last Jack shared that with me when he came here That's nice Because we were

We did have some players missing at that time So, yeah. Can we sort of take this thought and sort of wrap it up for us? Because what you've just got there from Alistair, presumably was your entire life as Zingham Manager, which is amateurs from the side of the pitch telling you how to do your job. How did you manage when you're reading the newspapers, getting texts from Alistair, etc? He was polite. Keep a sense of what you know, what they know.

And was there ever a time when you got a text or WhatsApp and read an article where actually it kind of hit you? And you thought, actually, maybe they're right. Maybe I have got all this wrong. Definitely. I mean, at the start, I definitely read more at the beginning. And then I realized I needed to cut myself off from that because the danger is you get swayed by an opinion. And actually, you know, is there real knowledge behind that opinion?

Is there a real understanding of all of the issues that are in front of us? So the longer I was in the role, there were moments where I did read more generally, because I needed to be across some of those ideas, but definitely within tournaments, within camps, I removed myself from reading newspapers, definitely social media was a no-go, because I needed to protect my own well-being, really.

You know, I've seen or felt my mood change by reading something about me, and I think that's the case for young people. You know, that's one of the dangers of social media. Would you support, you know, we've talked a lot about the band in Australia of access of teenagers, to social media. Would you support that here?

I think it's a little bit more complex than that. I mean, Jonathan Haight talks brilliantly about this. I've just ludicrously joined Instagram. So I'm not on the algorithm yet, so I'm not being thrown everywhere. Yeah, but you're flogging a book. Well, I'm flogging a book. But I think there's going to be a chance to get messages out there in this space, for example. But there's also this aspect of what is a normal childhood now.

You know, in our day, it was playing outdoors. It was failing. falling off bikes, so it was resilience building and socialisation. And now, you know, I think we've really got to think about are we providing those spaces? Because why are kids going to, it's not phone, is it? It's a computer in your hand. Why are they going to social media where they're now finding poor role models? It's because the alternatives aren't as attractive for them. Less after-school sport, less youth clubs, less access to youth workers, mentors. So it's not just one fix.

We can say, okay, nothing below the age of, and I think parents will start to do that because I think we're seeing a generation now, the first generation that's been through this social media, mobile phone experience. And I think parents have felt uncomfortable about it for a long time, and now they're starting to say, but they don't want to be the first to stop their kid at school.

It's creating tension for parents. But I think they will change that. And I think young people actually, when you talk to them, they're relieved. If they don't need to be on social media, they can leave their phone for days or so. But we have got to provide those alternatives. We have got to get people back into offices socialising. Three-day week, no good. There's seven days in a week.

If we're only working with three, that balance isn't right. Young people learn by interacting in offices. You build teams by interacting. and if we're missing all of that socialisation, that won't be good for the development of people. Well, thank you for your time. Good luck with the book. Thank you.

No, that was great. Thanks very much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, Alsa, I thought that was amazing. You can confirm, the production team confirm, that is the first time I've ever asked from a mobile number for any of our leading guests.

He's the only one that I've actually wanted to meet up with again. I didn't realize that personally, he described himself as an introvert. You can see it. Thank you for insulting every one of our previous guests by saying that you weren't interested in talking to the very four. No, he's a lovely guy. He's a lovely guy. I think he's quite nervous in a weird sort of way at the start.

I thought he warmed into it. Presumably, that must have been a challenge also for him that I hadn't thought about, which is Terry Vannebils or Kevin Keegan, I guess, were quite kind of massive, extrovert, big characters and quite a macho job. And here was somebody taking over the biggest job in English football who didn't really. have that personality type. Was that something that people noticed? How he became manager is really interesting because he was actually asked to apply when Roy Hodgson stepped down and he said no, he wasn't ready. And Sam Aladais took over and then famously and rather unfortunately was done over by the Daily Telegraph and he stepped down relatively soon into the job and Garath decided to go for it. I think he's a really interesting character in lots of ways.

I think what he might have been nervous about was actually the concept of politics. He's obviously very interested in politics. He's very political. He's very diplomatic and all that stuff. But he was so careful not to get into anything that could be deemed to him being political. Is he in trouble in the culture wars? Because he's pretty progressive, isn't he? I mean, he really wants to talk about white privilege and stuff like that.

So is there a group of kind of right-wing football fans out on the Tommy Robinson-Royt who are angry with him for his political views? I mean, I think he got a little bit of the sort of woke backlash, but I don't think so. I think if you look at that broken nose, you realise you're talking to somebody who's been around a bit and knows how to look after himself. And he was right, actually, I got it wrong

about the Roy Keene thing. He did this really, really dirty tackle on Roy Keen, who then stamped on him. He was also, the other thing I'd forgotten is he was in the game. You must remember this game when Eric Cantanard did a kung fu a tackle at Crystal Palace. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Garrett scored him that game.

I was checking that last night. No, I think he's a lovely character, and I'm glad that he's going into this space. Because as you know, I'm on this thing called the Lost Boys Task Force, and I think this thing about young men is a real sort of challenge, and he's definitely in that space. And in a way, he's seen the young men thing from every level, the fans. And then these young players that aged 18, 19, early 20s,

are multi-millionaires, either self-appointed or societally appointed role models. and often struggle. And when he set out the kind of values that he thinks leaders need, he talked about integrity, courage, empathy, resilience, and accountability. It's not a bad little quintet.

It's an amazing quintet. He's also got a lot of humility and self-reflection. I mean, one of the things that makes it I think a much more interesting book than normal books on leadership is the number of times he says, I thought that at the time, you know, about the term of Gore and Erickson.

Later I realized I was wrong, I've changed my mind on that. changed my mind about the kind of person I thought that was beautiful because you know we live in an age of politics where that kind of leadership obviously isn't the Trump style it isn't the Bolsonaro style it's not the Milay style

it would be fascinating if you'd manage to pull off your trick of get him to go into politics but of course I think he's actually too wise too humble and too self-knowing to fall into the trap by being a politician. No I think also he's probably seen enough of it to know that it's you know being the England manager is a hard high profile job

I think it was Glenn Hottle who said it's the second worst job the country. So I think he knows it probably wouldn't be a pleasant experience for him. But listen, he's got, he's definitely got political skills, no doubt about that. Thank you for that, Alistair. And I obviously wanted to talk much more about formations and 4-4-1 and stuff and, you know. And you're pleased to know Jack Corp has agreed to come on next week. Oh, that's great. I'm really been looking forward to hearing about Jack Corp, because, you know, he's somebody I've studied very, and his dad, could we get him on with his dad? With his dad, with his mom. I know his mum. I know his mom is lovely, too.

Yeah, yeah, and they're quite interested in politics. Yeah, very good. Good. See you soon. Bye-bye.