The Rest Is Politics: Leading - 163. Prison Reform, Masculinity, and Restorative Justice (James Graham and Jacob Dunne)

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Jacob Dunne killed someone as a teenager, how did he seek forgiveness from his victim’s parents? What is restorative justice? How did Jacob’s experience of the criminal justice system compel him to become a campaigner for this alternative idea of justice? How does James Graham believe drama encourages us to have the difficult conversations necessary to build a better world?  Rory and Alastair are joined by playwright James Graham and campaigner Jacob Dunne, who co-created the award-winning play The Punch which depicts Jacob’s path to restorative justice.  Gift The Rest Is Politics Plus this Christmas - give someone a whole year of Rory and Alastair’s miniseries, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, an exclusive members’ newsletter, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. Just go to https://therestispolitics.supportingcast.fm/gifts And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestispolitics.com For Leading listeners, there’s free access to the Wordsmith Academy - plus their report on the future of legal skills. Visit https://www.wordsmith.ai/politics To save your company time and money, open a Revolut Business account today via https://get.revolut.com/z4lF/leading, and add money to your account by 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. This offer’s available for New Business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and Terms & Conditions apply. For US customers, Revolut is not a bank. Banking services and card issuance are provided by Lead Bank, Member FDIC. Visa® and Mastercard® cards issued under license. Funds are FDIC insured up to $250,000 through Lead Bank, in the event Lead Bank fails. Fees may apply. See full terms in description. For Irish customers, Revolut Bank UAB is authorised and regulated by the Bank of Lithuania in the Republic of Lithuania and by the European Central Bank and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. For AU customers, consider PDS & TMD at revolut.com/en-AU. Revolut Payments Australia Pty Ltd (AFSL 517589). Find out more about the Common Ground Justice Project at www.commongroundjustice.uk  Sign Jacob’s petition to widen victims’ access to Restorative Justice at www.RightToBeHeard.org. Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith Producer: Alice Horrell Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Head of Politics: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for listening to The Restis Politics. Sign up to the Restis Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chat room and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolities.com. That's the rest is politics.com. This episode is brought to you by Wordsmith. A.I. And increasingly, of course, in all the organizations we work in, we can get massively slowed up by the paperwork, the processes, the forms, the legal advice. And that's why, in business today, it's all of us, legal teams, companies are facing a choice, lead the AI shift or risk being left behind. And companies like TrustPilot, Deliveroo, SkyScanor are already leading the way,

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Shifts already happening. Wordsmith is helping legal teams around the world with clarity and confidence. There's free access to the Wordsmith Academy, plus their report on the future of legal skills. visit wordsmith.a.ai slash politics. Welcome to the Restless Politics Leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alastair Campbell. And I think this is the first doubleheader since we did two mayors, Andy Burnham and Andy Street. And this doubleheader is a gentleman that I always refer to

as Britain's greatest living playwright, and that is James Graham, and the real person subject of one of his many extraordinary pieces of theatre. And that is a play called Punch, which is, has as the hero, star, anti-hero. We'll come on to that. Jacob Dunn. Jacob Dunn as a teenager in Nottingham through a single punch in 2011, which resulted in the death of a trainee paramedic James Hodgkinson.

And James Graham has written a play about that incident, about Jacob, and about what followed afterwards, and in particular the extraordinary encounter. with the parents of the victim, because James Hodgson's parents became involved in restorative justice, and they reached out to Jacob and began a painful journey of understanding and forgiveness,

and it takes us right to the heart of the criminal justice system and our humanity. So if you've seen the play, which many of you will have done, you'll know what we're talking about, and so will a lot of Americans, because it's been on Broadway too,

and if you haven't seen the play, it's on until November the 29th, at the Apollo Theatre, London. Thank you all for coming. And it was an amazing play, really, really moving. Thank you. And wonderful and highly recommended to everyone. It's really what you've done.

I guess, Jacob, can I start with you? I mean, one thing that must be true is that you must be asked the same question again and again and again. Yeah. And tell us what that question is and how you think about answering it and how you've continued to feel authentic when you're asked the same question 300 times. Yeah. I think it's probably more than 300 times over the last decade. And I've slowly been trying to move the dial forward.

And the answers, you know, not changed the answers, and to authentically, but pivot. And the question is moving forward. And the question that you're always asked. And the question is, you know, tell us about that punch that you through that night. Why did you do it?

How did it feel being arrested for murder? You know, and then slowly as those questions move on them progress. It's about, you know, what was prison like? And then what, how did you feel when you've heard of a story of justice and your victims? Is one issue here that in some sense, a lot of these questions are fixing on something which is now further and further away in your life? Yeah, yeah. It's becoming further and further away in my life. And I often say, it's a little bit like one of James's other famous plays. And I'm not comparing myself to

Garra Safgayt by any means, but Garra Safgat was defined by missing a penalty. And he's only recently, as he became England manager and, you know, been successful as a football manager that he's now redefined himself as, in a way, you could say he's more well known for being the England manager and the success he's had in recent years, rather than before that it was that penalty. And do you feel when people ask you about that punch, people ask it from the point of view of their butt for the grace of God, go I, that they're feeling... I could have done that.

My God, that's awful, how unlucky you were, or is that not always the sense of the question? I don't think that's always the sense of the question. I think sometimes it is sensationalist. And for me personally, I don't think there's much more to be said or much benefit that can come from talking about the punch. It's more what I've learned on the journey since then and the wider messages and the wider implications that my story can have

and why it's resonating with audiences. Just before I go to answer, just to explain to this list and hope I've got this right, just so people can frame the conversation we're having. Jacob grew up in a quite difficult background in Nottingham, but in some ways you explain in your book and in the play, then other ways there were bits of it that's actually not very dissimilar to your own background growing up,

and that you effectively were called in by friends and what was a fight outside a parable? Yeah. And you hit someone, and this man very tragically was killed as he hit the ground and his parents and reached out you. Over down to us now. Yeah, I was going to start with you, James, by asking, you've written, I know you're a workaholic and you've written a lot of quite amazing plays and they all pretty much seem to hit A-mark

and you tend to alight upon a person or a situation that speaks to something that you desperately want to write and talk about. What was it in Jacob's story that you felt, this is for me, I have to ride to play about this? It just was one of those rare stories. I mean, you're right. I normally sort of like to take institutions at a moment in our recent history. The Whips Office. The Whips Office.

Or the Brexit referendum or the England football team, the men's football team. And at a moment of a crossroads or a tipping point, get in there and try to understand what that might say about a national character about us. This felt completely different. It was about an individual, but it was about a community, my community. I grew up in North Nottinghamshire. I was where he said, I grew up in the mining villages. Jacob grew up in the city. And I was compelled to look at it for that reason,

but it's as you go through the story. It was that weird thing that it just does something to people, and it does something to me every time I talk about it. I always get very worried that I get very moves talking about it because I feel so inauthentic in your presence, Jacob, getting emotional about it because it's not my pain, it's not my trauma, but people do seem to get really affected by it.

And I think it's the idea in a quite cruel age or a difficult time, just like the most remarkable act of forgiveness and compassion and kindness in the form of what the victim's parents did with Jacob and what Jacob did with the parents. And that's a coming together across a divide. And we talk about divides all the time, you guys do. But the most chasmus divide you can possibly have, somebody lost their son. and they had to reach out to the person who took him.

It's also a very complicated story. It's incredibly complicated. You make it, there's a simple narrative that you drive, but it was a complicated process. And the reason why I was hesitant to say hero, because I think in a way, the parents are the heroes. Yeah, that's certainly what I would say. Yeah.

But when you were writing it, were you, and you clearly, even now, I can see you get emotional, just thinking about it. What story were you trying to tell? I think when an audience sits there and they've now heard about it before they walk into the theatre, so it's a different kind of relationship from when we started. I think they often sit down with the central provocation, which is could you imagine you personally, imagining, forgiving or going as close to forgiveness as you can to the person who harmed you most in the world.

And I think most people sit down as the lights go down at 7.30 and think, no. I can't wait to see the story. I can't wait to understand what it's like to be Jacob growing up in a difficult environment, going to prison, being involved in male violence in those toxic male relationships. I can't wait to meet the parents and see how they recame their grief in this way through restorative justice. But I think people sit down going,

I would never be able to do that. And I wanted to explore that, the process. It's not dissimilar from the whips. How does the whips office work? How does grief work? But actually, it is about systems, without turning Jacob into a metaphor or an allegory, it is a bit like this Dickensian story

of an individual who pretty much goes through all of our systems. he's a working class kid and they pretty much all failed all failed him Jacob always takes personal responsibility for his actions but the schools failed him

and the social services failed him and the courts failed him and prison and probation and he's a person who's walked through most of our systems and for me as a political playwright that felt an exciting way to look at the last 10 years of austerity

and where we are today it's actually there's an amazing character in the play who is a sociology lecturer yeah your lecturer yeah he was my psychology to teach Yeah, at college, yeah. But he sort of comes on and he produces these kind of great statements. And we kind of get that other side of you as a playwright where he was like austerity, Thatcher.

You know, it's got a bit of a system. It's a bit solid than that. Well, actually, I love the way you do it because in a sense you're also poking fun at yourself because you've created the kind of sociological narratives through another character. So it's not you lecturing us so much as a guy who's both authentic but also slightly eccentric producing this narrative. But I was also very interesting in this question of forgiveness and redemption.

If I was looking at the dominant theme of our culture, I think we often seem very unforgiving. If you look at the headline in a newspaper, so-and-so is evil. Often a public figure could be a politician. They've done something absolutely terrible. And there's a real drive.

They must be punished. They must be held accountable. There's very little room for the idea of forgiveness. very little room for saying that could be me. This person's going to have a chance to turn that around. They're going to be forgiven. I feel we're a very vengeful, angry culture that wants to find people to go after.

I agree. And it's, I mean, it's probably twas ever thus, but in the last, certainly the last 10, 15 years, and you've witnessed this, the discourse has changed to being one of competing and one of winning. And, you know, think of all the YouTube thumbnail headlines, owning, crushing, destroying is celebrated. The president of the United States is celebrated for being a bully, for being standing on top of people and winning in that way. There's very little celebration of compassion and empathy. But I would always argue and I always advocate for drama, storytelling and particularly theatre in this space, unlike social media,

which is a very responsive, reactive and competitive form of discourse. theatre demands that you want to turn off your phone, which is brilliant, and for a couple of hours walk in the footsteps of someone else. You'd probably disagree with someone who you think you wouldn't have normally supported and try to understand them, try to understand why they behave the way they do. But Roy, you've kind of touched on the kind of the main reason I wanted to come on the show, to be honest. And that's about the narrative is stuck. And I don't know how much more we're going to talk about the play and in what order.

But the central theme of the play is that all the characters are stuck. and they don't know how to move forward. And then when you broaden that out as a lens, you look at the justice system. That is a debate that's been stuck for decades, the prison crisis, the overpopulation, people being released early, and a debate about justice reform is stuck

in terms of tough on crime, soft on crime. And that's the parallels between the story of individual characters, David and Jerm being stuck in their grief, not getting answers from the justice system, not feeling support as victims, not knowing how to move forward after the loss of their son, and me feeling pessimistic about the world and not thinking I could enter the job market,

not feeling like I could contribute, no qualifications, no fixed address on release of prison, kind of bleak future ahead. And yet, through asking the right questions, which is what restorative justice does, being able to look at everybody's needs, listen deeply across divides. and actually find a way, if everybody's willing to engage and participate in the conversation,

to find a way forward with problematic solutions that get everybody's needs met. And that's what my organisation now is called, it's called the Common Ground Justice Projects, and that's what we're seeking to do, is to unstuck the public debate and find pragmatic solutions to move us forward. You said bleak, you're facing a bleak future. Do you think if Joan and David had not been the people that they are, or that they certainly became

and were able, particularly Joan, to forgive you. And it struck me both from reading your book and from watching the play, genuinely forgive you in her case. And I'm not being critical of the dad, I just think he had a much tougher process to go through. What do you think your life would have been? Do you, can you, I know it's impossible to say

because your life has become what it's become, but what was your sense of what your life was going to be? It was just the same as always. And just filling time, dossing about. In an out of jail? In another jail, probably. Committing low-level crime. Just doing whatever I needed to do to get by and fill the void.

And try and... Because the problem is, is that I didn't have a goal. I didn't have goals. I didn't have a purpose. And that's what the state of a lot of young people, they saw people coming out of business. They don't have a goal or a purpose or relationships and connections. How did they unlock your sense of purpose?

by making me care about myself and showing me that I was worthy of caring about myself and trying to figure out some goals and not wanting to hurt any more of a people. And so it was through those connections. So it's those human relationships. It's those relationships. If you have good pro-social connections to society, to your community, you don't want to hurt your community or harm your community. You don't want to contribute to your community.

and having the people who I'd harm the most actually take an interest in me and want me to go and get an education, want me to get into employment, want me to contribute to society was enough of a motivation initially and a purpose. That was my purpose. I don't want to let David and Joan down. I want to create a new narrative for myself. Forgiveness is a really tough idea, isn't it? Because you're saying, okay, that's done. You're forgiven.

and you're going to move forward and you're going to live your life the full and that always leaves people thinking yeah but is he taking responsibility enough for that is he acknowledging enough of this? Maybe people want you to feel kind of guilty to show that you want to something. So how are somebody who's been through this?

How does forgiveness work? How do you get that balance right? Why do humans find this concept of forgiveness and then you move forward difficult? I think what the remarkable part about punch is that often people come to see the play and maybe leave the play. And in one of the post-show conversations,

we have post shows every Tuesday night, one of which Alice is joining us for on the 25th of November, is that they think we had a question in one of the post shows and people asked the question, David and Joan, are you Christian? Is there an element of faith in this? Because we know, you know, and religion often talks about, you know,

the need to forgive in order to move on more forward, more than anything. It's a gift to yourself. is forgiveness in order to not, you know, be trapped and consumed by bitterness and anger and hate, which will manifest in, you know, everyone else around you. And from the conversations I had with Joan particularly is she wasn't recognizing who the person she was anymore. People around her didn't recognize who she was. She didn't want.

And she says about her son, she says, my son wouldn't want me to become the person that I'm becoming. And so forgiveness for them wasn't a person. religious kind of motivated it wasn't motivated by religious context it was made motivated by a need to be able to live well or to be I think James uses a quote in the play to become the best version of myself and for you and for me that's a very tricky um journey which I'm still on I find it hard to truly say I forgive myself and I think a lot of my work sometimes is motivated by guilt, which isn't healthy either, and that need to want to give back and need to try and make an

impact in the world and need to try and help young people and stop more punches being thrown and fighting the common ground in public discourse and try and, you know, make as much good come from this story as possible. But that's a, that's going to be a lifelong journey of mine and that's one thing I'd say about, you know, a lot of people say about punitive sentences, you know, taking part in restorative justice for me and really, looking at the mother and father, David and Joan, in the eyes, and seeing the grief in their eyes and them telling me about their son, that's a lifelong sentence. I've opened my heart to that now and I can't. I can never not remember that. Do you think it matters if you don't

forgive yourself? I think the way it matters, it's almost like there's a threshold where it does matter if it becomes problematic, if it means that I don't take care of myself because I feel so bad about myself. And that's what I would say is a big problem with people in prison, who are suffering with substance misuse, people who have mental health issues, a lot of that can be triggered by a lifetime of shame, a lifetime of trauma, a lifetime of not forgiving yourself. But you're using it to motivate yourself to do the good things that you're doing? Yeah. So I'm happy in that place, but I just always know that it's a balance. Yeah. And I've been on both sides of that balance at various times, especially when the story

becomes more, or when I'm asked that original question most of the time, which is tell me about the worst thing you ever did. James, I mean, listening to Jacob now, right? Unbelievably articulate. It's thought a lot of things through and is very clever. And I'm imagining you grew up with lots of young, you know, teenagers and young men who probably were out on the streets and causing trouble and dealing drugs and doing all the stuff that Jacob did.

What had to happen to somebody like Jacob, do you think, to go from the life that he was sort of felt he was, being dragged into to the life that he leads now. And how can that be done without him ending up in jail for a while? I've had to think about this a lot because obviously as a playwright, if I was treating Jacob as a fictional character, you have to work out of motivations, objections, obstacles, what is the turning point that takes them onto this extraordinary journey?

The brilliant thing about Jacob being alive and next to me is I get to keep asking him, but you find it kind of thing that Harley's question as well, what the moment was that you transformed in that way. Rory, you said that question like there, but for the grace of God. I think most drama is gets under our skin for that reason. We like to sit back and think we're just observers on human nature, but when any of us are put in a difficult situation, do we become the best version of ourselves or the worst?

And I think that's what compels people to watch drama. I think a lot about the fork in the road that was my life in your life, Jacob, growing up in Nottingshire. I was the same, like, working class family, I lived with my single mom. but so much went right for me whether that was look or anything else my parents read to me and encouraged me to be creative

I went to an underfunded huge comprehensive school but had an amazing drama teacher who just decided that working class kids should do plays it gave me a passion, a purpose to think that that void that you spoke of my void and there's loads of voids I was nervous and shy and confused about myself

it was filled sort of very quickly But you always think, gosh, had it not been, like, what are the triggers for me that would have meant I made appalling decisions? I remember going out a lot, like that moment when you're 15, 16, 17, you have to start going out downtown, getting the bus. And it just wasn't my world and I hated it. And there was. I mean, this was also what compelled me to look at the play. It's setting like a market town in the Midlands and a Saturday night. And a lot of people recognize that kind of throb of threat or violence around.

the market square behind the pub and yeah there were lads like you who i would bump into and think oh my god i'm never going to survive this it's getting awful and i wanted to kind of understand that like what that you know that in that is class in that is masculinity in that is culture british culture how we the rhythm of life friday nights saturday nights after work i don't think we answer those questions but i want to sort of understand it and it's but to go back to your question yeah i i don't think i ever would have been um that kind of man i just don't think it was in my DNA but I think about the best versions of myself and the worst a lot. Push it one stage further.

So at the moment, an example of somebody that people would find it very difficult to empathise with would be, let's say, an Afghan immigrant who abused an underage minor, raped a woman. Would you be able to write a play about that? Would you be able to help an audience find empathy for that person? I think if I'm to stick to my principle that any story is valid and understanding any person's motivation so that we can understand human nature or the systems that we've surrounded ourselves with is a really valid thing.

It's not about forcing empathy and empathy is different from sympathy. Empathy is just the act of wanting to know why. I love how Jacob describes the thing that unlocked him. No one had asked him before what he wanted to do and why he was doing it. It took the parents or the person he killed to ask that question. So it's just about questions and yes, I wouldn't enjoy writing it.

I don't think an audience would enjoy sitting. through it, but to ask the question, what happened to get that man into that place where he did that thing is always valid. And it's an interesting question, isn't it, about what we can handle and what we can't as an audience? Yeah. I mean, is it possible that an audience can handle something horrible and tragic like Jacob killing somebody with a punch better than they can handle something like child abuse?

And yet that too is an exercise in empathy, forgiveness, understanding. I mean, how does one get to the stage of being able to inhabit things which are right at the edge of what the public can bear to think about? I don't think I can answer that, but I think it is the function and always has been the function for thousands of years since ancient Greece, that you put the worst aspects of humanity and the darkness of our soul on stage. It is different for Jacob, because, as you described, it's never about apologising for it. And I was taken to task rightly by David, the father of James. I'd started to accidentally, ironically, put the word accident a lot in my script. And he called me and said, it wasn't an accident. You never throw a punch accidentally.

Jacob didn't mean to kill James, but it wasn't an accident. He chose to throw that punch. And sorry, I'm not going to interrupt, but I'm sort of developing this obsession I've got. But I think many things that we do, which are evil, we don't do deliberately, either because we haven't fully. thought it through, or we haven't had the empathy to think of the harm that we're causing to other people. But often the people that we portray as the most evil people in the world probably don't see themselves as being evil.

They lie to themselves. They conceal what they're doing. They think what they're doing is more innocent than it actually is. And certainly, even when I do small things, I do that to myself. I just want to, I mean, how do you think about this as a way? This is kind of what we're trying to do at the Common Ground Justice Project, because this is why the debate is stuck. And yes, you've brought up a very controversial, highly emotive topic, an example. But the way that things work, let's talk about people, just criminals, for example,

the debate is shame and blame. And same in the political discourse, you know, there's something gone wrong. Let's, you know, Lammy or, you know, whoever the secretary of state is for whatever department, something's gone wrong. Horrible Torres and austerity. It's just horrible stories of austerity. It's always like the easy answer, shame and blame, shame and blame. But what people actually really want is people to be accountable and remorseful and to own up and to take responsibility. So that's the difference with this story that James is talking about. If you're going to take that Afghan refugee or you're going to talk about somebody else,

a different example, I think the preconditions, the same way the preconditions to entering a restorative justice conversation are, that all parties have to enter it voluntarily, but especially for the perpetrator, they have to accept responsibility and they have to be remorseful. And otherwise, you can't have the conversation. And so that's kind of like what we're trying to do at the Commonwealth Ground Justice Project,

is just trying to engage people across political divides to enter into a conversation about justice so that we can get beyond the sound bites and the headlines and move beyond that and really try and find what the public really wants from justice reform. Do they, instead of rehabilitation and, or punishment because we went to the reform party, we hosted a fringe event at the Reform Party conference

and we found that eight in ten people at the Reform Party members wanted the prison system to do both rehabilitation and punishment. But if you ask them either or it would have been very high on the scale of punishment. So if you go beyond that simple, you know, argument, you do find the nuance. How far were you down the road towards the blink future when you heard about even the concept of historical, of justice and how did you hear about it and how did it come about?

In your case, in your case. In my case, it came about through my probation officer. So I came out of prison. My probation officer said. You hadn't heard about it in prison? I've never heard about it in prison, no. And I go into prisons a lot now and lots of men in there are saying, we've seen you on TV, we've heard you on prison radio.

And they'll go, I never heard of a story of justice. I didn't even know I could say sorry to my victims. I didn't even know I could express. remorse and that's a problem with the design of prisons is that we all have this assumption that people in prison don't care about the harm they've caused but actually the way it's designed doesn't allow them to express remorse doesn't allow them to contribute because they're out of sight out of mind in cells 24 hours a day or not really do got the opportunity to do anything meaningful but then when they see me coming in there's like can you can me who's my local service provider

for a story of justice how do I say sorry to my victims but for in my case to answer your question Alastair, when I came out of prison, saw my probation officer. She then said, we've had a referral from your victims for an organisation called Remedy. And we, they want to ask you some questions. So they were, they were aware of it and they were driving it. The victims, what my, my victims were aware of it. They, it took them a long time to become aware of it.

And this is what I mean about trying to get people unstuck because they at first were asking the prison estate. what's Jacob doing? Is he doing an alcohol-related violence course? Is he sorting out his mental health? Is he involved in education? What is he doing in there? Is he aware of the harm he's caused? And they were like, and were you aware of their master? And I wasn't, no, I wasn't, I wasn't aware of this. And they were getting told it's data protection. We can't tell you this. And, you know, the play highlights that frustration of David and Joan going, what, like, why aren't we getting any answers? One thing to just, I mean, as somebody who, who spent a bit of my time working on prisons is hearing that. it's just so far from the reality of what prisons are now.

I mean, yeah, theoretically, there's an education course, there's an alcohol reduction course, but in practice, it's in lockdown a lot. You know, you might be in a cell 23 hours out of 24. You turn up to education, and there are seven people at very different levels around the poor teachers trying to pull half the people looking out the window.

So the gap between the story and actually what's going on It's just terrible. Yeah. I mean, we have a sort of idea that maybe restorative justice is some Scandinavian system with kind of Swedish prison officers sitting down, working close to everything. It's like you're lucky if it's, you know, 10 minutes a week of someone chatting to you. And nobody, nobody professional would think that, I saw this for suicide prevention.

I remember seeing somebody who tried to take their own life sitting with a trained officer who was saying, does you feel a bit guilty about what you did? How about your kids? How are they going to feel? Here's it. How are they going to feel?

And I'm sitting there thinking, wait, I don't know much about this, but I don't think that's what you're supposed to say to somebody who's just trying to kill themselves, right? But that was the best that was being provided. So the gap between what actually is going on. Yeah.

So that is a perfect example of when I first went into custody and so Young Offenders Institute. The notorious Glenn Parva, which has now been knocked down and is a new super prison, Fosway, which I went in there, when I went in there, they printed off the newspaper articles, the prison officers of my mugshots, and it said killer, murderer, fog, teen only gets 30 months for manslaughter. And then the Daily Mail was there and they printed off all the comment

sections. And this was them trying to do some victim awareness with me. And they were like, look at what the public thinks of you. And you can, I don't know if I'm allowed to say words. Tell me what am I. Okay. Okay. So, you know, I told I told the prison officer, I said, go and do one. How dare you? But they were triggering my shame. And that's what I mean about that shame and blame culture.

We can't shame and blame our way into making people change. But it's madness because it's a total absence of any professionalism and training. I mean, part of the problem is you're taking, people can join the prison service, start working on the landings at the age of 18. They will often be on a landing with two or three people. There's no supervisory officers. There's no custodial management. The training course is a few weeks long.

They're being asked to do incredibly complicated things, dealing with some of the most complicated people on earth. They're supposed to be part teacher, part police officer, part social worker, part riot control officer, part therapist. And it's just not there. We're not investing in creating that kind of system remotely. And the four of us saying, you know, we need to do more, you know, I don't know, the new prison that replaced Glenn Parva,

so you've been back, is it better? Yeah, well, it's run by Serco. So it's a private prison. It's 2,400 spaces, I think, and I went and visited it for an ITV documentary I did and had a look around. Obviously, I was given a censored view of, you know, I was told, I was, you know, I didn't get free roam with the prison, you know, like an inspector at would. I was handpicked the people who had interviewed and the wings I was allowed to go on to. But it did, it did seem a lot. It did seem better in terms of there was more programs on in there.

It was a category C, resettlement prison, so it's got this emphasis on. trying to get people ready for reintegration, but I still hear stories that people have been released with tents, you know, because there's no housing. You know, and you raise that point in the play, don't you, James? It's like, word of warning. I think Wendy's my probation officer says, word of warning. I'm not going to spoil it, so.

That doesn't give much of a great line. It's a great line. It's a word of warning, Jacob. There is a long list, there's a long waiting list for housing, but there is no housing, you know. It's a bit better for you. But yeah, it's one of those real big problems. Okay, James Jacob, Alistair, quick break, and then back for more.

Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers, The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung vacs. the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer. It builds on TracerX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer cells over many years to uncover the disease's earliest warning signs. Lung Vax is designed to train the immune system to spot these signs early on,

destroying faulty cells before cancer develops. So it's not treatment, but preventative, with the potential to stop lung cancer before it starts. The first stage of the trial starts this year focusing on people at higher risk. It shows what long-term research makes possible. For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancerresearchukuk.org forward slash the rest is science. Hi, everybody, it's Dominic Zavrick here from The Rest is History. Now, some of you may have heard me on your show, The Rest is Politics when Rory was away

and I was filling in and enjoying Alistair Campbell's tremendous banter. And I'm back to tell you about our new series on The Restis History, which is all about Britain in the 1970s, a period with a lot of uncanny resemblances to our own. So right now we're living through a moment when oil shocks generated by war in the Middle East are rippling through the world economy, when Britain feels like it's sunk in a bit of a malaise.

People are arguing about Europe. the government has got a few issues with the trade unions, and we have a kind of, I suppose you'd say governing elite, a kind of political class that is really struggling to come to terms with all of these issues, and people are asking if Britain is governable at all. So there are a lot of parallels between that Britain that I'm describing, which is our Britain and the Britain of the mid-1970s. So in this series that's coming out on the rest is history, we're looking at these and other issues. We'll be talking about the rise of Margaret Thatcher, obviously a co-opening. colossal figure in our political life even now, whether you love her or loathe her. We'll be talking

about the very first Brexit referendum of 1975, a subject that I'm sure Rory and Alistaira will have strong opinions about. We'll be talking about the fall of the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson and we'll be talking about one of the grimmest moments in Britain's economic history, the moment in 1976 when we had to go cap in hand, as people said at the time, to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, for a then record bailout. Now, if that sounds good to you, how could it not sound good to you? Of course it sounds good to you. We have a clip for you to listen to at the end of this episode. And if you want to hear more, just search for The Rest is History wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Revoluted Business, the all-in-one business account to manage your finances.

Our world runs on exchange, trade, tax, tariffs, the quiet machinery that keeps everything moving. And everything is moving faster now. Ideas, goods, people, crossing continents and seconds, but money still takes the scenic route, tripping over red tape and hidden fees, and that's where Revolute business comes in. Over 30 currencies, sent to more than 150 countries, at the same interbank rates that banks use during market hours within plan allowance, no mystery markups. You can hold exchange and pay from one place. Local account details means clients in New York, Sydney or Dublin get paid fast without

the waiting or the worry. Business across borders done the way that politics so rarely is efficiently. Open a Revoluted business account today by scanning the QR code on screen or via the link in description. and add money by the 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or the equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan, offer available for new business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and terms and conditions apply. James, the play's going to Broadway. It's just been actually. Yeah. Yeah. So does an American

audience, because the thing I found about watching it, and I grew up part of my childhood in in my teenage years in Leicester, which isn't far from Lottom, isn't that different. But, you know, it's quite a tricky accent. Oh, God, yeah. It's a weird accent. It's so weird, because it's not quite northern. And it also sounds quite posh in bits. Yeah, listen to me.

I mean, mine's morphed into an aristocratic kind of weird thing, but yeah, it's... So do you think the Americans get this... Are they dealing with all the same issues? They are, and in some cases to greater extremes. It's a different thing. But yes, they did. And we worked very hard on our accents, but in a way, what makes this story... You have to change the accents.

No, we trained these Americans to do... But I wasn't thinking about the actors, I was thinking about the audience. We had to dial it down so that they could comprehend every third word. But what was universal about this story is what really got under the skin of the... And actually they got, sitting in that Broadway house, they would get more emotional. American audiences are generally more emotional. And they get to their feet very quickly. They would actually applaud at the end of this scene, the big scene in the play,

which is when Jacob meets David and Joan as part of the restorative justice, and they begin on picking what happened, and people got very emotional, people used to applaud. And I think it's because they're going through a similar existential crisis over there, in terms of certainly the justice system and their prison system and young men, and failing a lot of young men, I think what they're going through in terms of their political culture, a very toxic, cruel, unpleasant place. Again, the superhuman act of forgiveness that they do.

demonstrated as parents and characters just get got onto their skin, absolutely. James, can I ask you, what did you understand about masculinity and young men? You've described yourself as a young man in Nottingham, not really fitting the sort of Jacob image. I mean, I can't totally imagine you feeding the bars, getting smashed and having fights in bars, right? And maybe I'm being unfettered. No, when Jacob was doing that, I was figure skating in Nottingham Arena.

Very good night. Good spar by Torval and D. Yeah, great Nottingham couple. So that's another really interesting thing, given that you're very different. What is it that you had to learn about that type of masculinity? In order to represent it? Yeah. How would you define it?

What's surprising about it? What is it that people don't quite understand about what's going on in this sort of classic image of the 18 to 25-year-old kind of macho-aggressive young man? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, you revert to cliches, don't you, about the male condition and how we cope? But Jacob speaks way more eloquent about this, so I should pass to him. But he talks about like an emotional toolkit. And what emotional as we grow up, whether that's our parents, our culture, our music, our friends, the culture, what it puts into our toolkit. And as a bloke, I mean, what was put into my toolkit was, it's okay to cry, James.

So I did lots. And it is okay. And it is really, I think I go back to this idea, which is always the key in drama. When you are under pressure in a moment, so. someone's just told you they're leaving you, or someone just told you, pushed you against the wall and said, I want to fight. In that moment, you open your kit and what did you pull out? And I would have pulled out tears often or running away. Jacob had a different emotional toolkit.

And it's about, I think about this a lot in terms of what Gareth Southgate did in the play Jacob reference, Dear England. These young men who we thought of as being quite spoiled, privileged, millionaires, not caring enough to turn up every day and do well, something else was wrong. People didn't want to acknowledge that these young men were really scared and not anxious and not handling the pressure very well. Garris Southgate tried to go on a psychological journey of creating resilience. And I love that word actually, and you talk about eloquently, Jacob. It's not about the painting of restorative justice or any of this warm and footey stuff to do with men stroking them and hugging them and going, it's okay. It's not because it's nice. It's not because it makes us feel good or even because it's the right thing to do.

it's actually building in a generation of young men the resilience to go when things don't go your way and they will often not go your way how you behave, how you conduct yourself which takes practice and learning will define you

and I was just very lucky that my my talk it had different things in than yours and that's massively important what punch is all about what all the work I'm trying to do at the moment is about conversations it's about communication and how good the discourse is

if we're reducing everything to headlines sounds, sound bites, blame, shame culture. No one's going to learn the tools. And everyone's going to be getting triggered. Because, oh, I've said the wrong thing. Now I'm racist. How do I come back from them? How do I respond to that?

You know what I mean? And so we're always caught in these, like, really toxic debates. So going back to what James was saying, he was exposed to the odds. He was exposed to drama. He was exposed to healthy relationships and ways and cultures and places and spaces where he was able to express himself.

where he's able to find the words to articulate himself, understand himself, follow passions, whereas for me and for some other people who don't get exposed to those types of relationships or don't have the curiosity or the encouragement to explore themselves in certain safe spaces to make sense of themselves,

then are on the back foot and are always kind of cautious. What do your friends, the friends that you were involved with and the group that you went, as it were, to defend, because you felt this is my tribe and it's under attack and I've got to go and defend it. What's happened to all of them?

Well, eventually, as you know, there's a crime curve. And so eventually, you know, I'm 33 now. So most of my friends are over 30 or coming up to 30. And most people kind of like naturally stopped committing crime by the time they reach their 30s. Apart from, you know, those who kind of see no way possible out of it because they haven't got into a relationship. They haven't had kids.

They haven't had a, you know, they haven't sorted out of mental health. or they haven't had those of your friends ended up most of my friends now are okay they have like their own businesses or they've you know and there's a few that are dead or in prison for a long time because

that's just what happens the risk you run if you live that lifestyle for 10 years from 18 to 28 you know eventually you're going to get caught out the same way I was but I was caught out very early tragically and there's all those

tragic stories that happen but hopefully most people tend to kind of eventually make it out if they haven't died or ended up in prison or or have become mentally ill and unable to, you know, I've got lots of kids of friends or people who are kind of going to be on welfare for the rest of their lives now because of the stuff they've experienced and the drugs that they've taken or. James, one thing that comes out in play is that it's a moment when you're talking about turning up at your secondary school. And I think I can't remember the exact line. James will remind us of it. basically you say there are two bunches of people and one group is fun. One of the things that it gets lost when we talk about, you know, you weren't given an emotional opportunity to explore figure skating and drama and the set and the other,

is that presumably from the point of view of a 16, 17-year-old, there's a sense in which you would rather be Jacob than James, right? And so I think that's something that also isn't to acknowledge, which is the, and that's another thing that comes to be beautifully in the play, which is that strange sense that when you're seeing you, Jacob age, 16, 17, 17 as an adult, you seem a bit kind of shy and sullen and your eyes are down. You're not meeting. But when you're with your friends, you're lighting up, you're becoming this larger than life charismatic figure. Well, there's two lines in the play that I'd that speak to

this is the opening lines, which is, you know, addicted to drama. And this need to like, it is a great metaphor for the play and drama and theater and youth culture is that addiction to drama, addiction to adrenaline, addiction to feeling alive when everything else might seem so bleak. But then the other one, Later on in the play is doing bad things creates good feelings. And, you know, I always feel uncomfortable with that line, but I think it is true to an extent. Is that still true?

No. Never. It depends. It depends what you define as bad, doesn't it, Alistair? I know what you define as bad. Do you agree with that quote? Doing bad things creates good feelings. Not sure I do.

Was in Norway when you were 1819? Did you not feel a bit like him sometimes? I did get in a lot of fights. Far too many, but it didn't make you feel good. Did you get a sort of sense of balance, adrenaline, excitement? Not really, no. Did you ever throw a punch? Yeah.

But you were more depressive, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, because that line, like, is a parent now. Like, I would, like, my son staying out too late when he gets older, I'd probably cost us a bad thing. Or drinking too much as a bad thing. But I guess as a young person, you're not really clustin that as a bad thing.

I don't think I ever had a fight and felt good about it afterwards. Well, I was interesting reading your book, I got the feeling that it happened and then you went back to your life. Yeah, it was normalized. It was, yeah, and it was only really, and it was interesting as well, and you're brutally honest about this. When then it started to be cut, you started to think maybe this isn't going away, your feelings are all about yourself. Yeah. Shit, how do I get out of this? I've got to get rid of all my clothes.

I've got to delete all my social media posts. I can't say where I was that night. So you're panicking about yourself. So it's a long time before you're starting to think there's somebody else involved in this. Yeah. And it's very difficult to put yourself in other people's shoes. And that's what we hope this play does quite well, I think,

from the reception how it's getting. It puts you kind of forced as an audience to be able to, if not empathize, at least put yourself in the shoes of all the characters from all perspectives. So let me ask you to put yourselves, both of you, in the shoes of the politicians. So you've said, you know, it's either tough on crime or soft on crime. You know, we're seeing this debate at the moment playing out in all sorts of different ways, who's toughest on crime?

Do you understand why that has come about? Can you see why, for example, if David Lammy would stand up and say, too many people in prison, we're going to cut investment in prisons, were going to massively ramp up investment in restorative justice. Can you see it from their perspective? Well, the thing is, I can see it from their perspective, and I am encouraging them to do this. So restorative justice, I think it's the wrong example,

but I know what you mean. So a better example of that would be if we're going to employ a load of therapists at the cost of $2 billion to be in every prison, then you'd have that alt-rail. But in terms of restorative justice, I don't think that is, I don't think... By the way, would you support doing that? If there was the money available, but I know, as you know, I'm a pragmatist.

You know, I understand to a degree, you know, what goes on in civil service, what goes on with the conversation with the Treasury, what goes on in terms of how government works to a degree, enough to know that I can't just come wandering on air going, this needs to happen and this needs to happen. And, you know what I mean? Because it's just wishful thinking. But you do think if they were to commit to restorative justice,

that would end up with a lot less crime. I think, yeah, in terms of restorative justice, and I think that the reason why restorative justice isn't something where the daily mail or all of a sudden going to go, this is despicable, how can people be doing restorative justice? Because at the heart of it, restorative justice is about empowering victims. Our campaign is called the right to be heard, which is about giving every victim information about restorative justice and making them aware of their rights. Because at the moment, only 1 in 20 victims of crime recall being offered restorative justice. And this is a something that's going to cost a treasury and more money. This just means that the police, the courts, at all stages of the justice system, they make victims aware that restorative justice is an option. And I'm not saying that restorative justice is for every victim of crime. It might not be at the start when they first report a crime because that's probably when they're going to be most angry. But by the time time passes on, they might be more open to it. They might go actually, the same way David and Joan did, my victims, I'm really angry at the sentence length. I'm going to

try and appeal. Then they try to appeal and they can't get it appealed. Then later on, they go, actually, what matters to us is holding Jacob accountable, making him aware of the impact that he's had, asking him questions. And I think that's, every victim of crime should have that right to enter restorative justice. You've written several plays that are actually, I would argue, very sympathetic about politics and politicians. It's getting harder, but yeah. It might be it out of, but you have done that. And I just wonder, so the same question to you really, whether you could put yourself in shoes that say, well, this sounds great, but I'm not sure we can get, we can do it.

Without a doubt, well, then I'd like to flip it back to you guys and you'd tell us what you think you would do. But it is, it's, I would say this, wouldn't I? It's about narrative and successful storytelling. The most successful story at the moment in our mainstream politics that we've convinced ourselves is that what people want to hear is being tough on sentencing and tough on disciplinary justice is effective. So I, of course, you have sympathy.

We know why David Lamy would be reticent about standing up and going. Instead of building more prison places and investing in the end of the crime, we're going to invest more money now in preventative measures socially, emotionally, in communities, young men, to spend more money now to save money later and to prevent these people from causing harm in the first place. That, to me, sounds like a rational choice from a rational society, but we don't live in a rational society. And that story is not winning, and that story is never won. Those conservative, possibly, parts of the media would react that that is a weak government being weak on crime. It's too soft.

It's too woolly. It's too woke. It's too progressive. Whereas we know, and Jacob knows personally, painting restorative justice as being easy or soft is such a mischaracterization. It is about the hardest thing you can ask an offender and a victim to go through. But it is muscular. It's robust. It's evidence-based.

The re-offending rate in this country is what now? 25, 20, 30%, wasn't? Short sentence, it's 60%. Yeah, so it's what, 51,000 a year to house a prison at? Why would any society to feel good about themselves rather spend 51,000 pounds a year

putting Jacob back in prison than spending a grand on restorative justice? We can talk about the sort of great deck that's... I mean, the answer is it isn't 1,000 against 51, and if it were, the Treasury would be doing it. It's not just about the daily mail. But I wanted to sort of move on a little bit from prison policy and prison.

and stuff where I agree with so much what you're saying. I think the truth is actually you can do a lot more. I mean, I was prison's minister. I was pushing to get rid of short sentences. I was pushing for safer prisons. I was very much involved in myself. And I was attacked by the daily mail. I had to manage a headline minister gives green light to criminals.

But we knew it was coming. We'd prepared for it. We thought about what we were doing and we were able to get space. Can I just say one thing before we move on from that debate is that's the one thing that we're trying to do. So I just want to say to the audience and politically minded people, if you do want to support us, the Common Ground Justice Project, and our right to be heard campaign to make restorative justice, a legal right for all victims of crying,

please do sign a petition at a right to be heard.org. And check out our work at the Common Ground Justice Project, because what we're trying to do is, and as we're concluding our conversation about justice, is we have, we know what works in terms of reducing reoffending. And then, but what we're interested in doing at the Common Ground Justice project is figuring out, what the public wants.

So over the next few years, and we need support, whether that's resources or researchers or anybody that wants to help us with a non-political organization to figure out what the public wants on justice so that we can match what works with what the public wants

and then give the government good pragmatic policies that are backed by what the public want. So there's not always this kind of caution or indecisiveness within the government around what should we do, are we going to get back on this?

So we're doing the hard work around what the public wants and suggesting policies and ideas that are backed by what the public want. I think it's wonderful work. I also think government can have a bit more courage. It doesn't need to be quite as frightened as it. But you were about to say that the reaction to you doing that was. But it wasn't a problem. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You know the day else's going to say it. You've prepared for it. You've talked to everyone a number 10 about it. They know the headlines coming. Yeah. When we were in office and we did, you know, the framing of tough on crime, the causes of crime.

What we were more interested in probably was the causes of crime. Of course, yeah, but at least you said that. You said the second bit. You're off that way. You've got the second bit. And I think what yours, I think where you both rise is this point about storytelling. Yeah. You know, if people want to drive a certain narrative that says all asylum seekers are bad,

all immigrants are bad, all criminals are bad, we should lock up everybody. Sentences should be longer. And there's nobody really coming back at that in the political space, then it's very, very difficult. Do you feel you are moving the dial? Yeah. Do you, is that just a feeling or do you have any kind of? Well, well, I feel that we, I can't do it. We can't do it alone.

A piece of theatre can start the debate and we're in the news, we're in the press, we're part of the national conversation on crime now, where we wouldn't even be part of the conversation. So by definition, in that sense, yes, we're having an impact. But moving forward, you know, that's what to create this common ground space where we can actually come together across political divides to create a community and a movement where more people can become engaged in this kind of thing

because we can't do it alone. So when you said earlier that we're finding out what the public really think, what happens with the public really think that we've got to go even further? Well, from the polling that we've done so far, we've got a report called course correction that's out and we want to be more polling to understand what we've realized is some emerging common ground that we need some more, you know, to say it bluntly,

funding to be able to do some more research to understand really what the public wants. But that's our ambition is to confidently be able to say this is what the public wants. But so far we've got some emerging ground that we want to keep investigating. And that's why we launched our right to be heard campaign because we do know that people care about victims right. That is a vote winner. That is something that the public care about. And then we can move on to, okay, okay, what kind of like policies would people back in terms

of encouraging rehabilitation? I mean, my pennyworth on this is the way to get the public there. is to make sure that you absolutely acknowledge the misery that victims go through, the chaos that criminals cause, the horror it impacts people's lives, and then move on to talking about how to make prisons better, reform, etc. One of the problems is liberals is they just seem to be blind to actually what it's like to be a victim. But that leads me to my next point. I kind of shift on on that.

Victims. So much of our culture is about victims. We're talking about very specific technical victims in crime, but we all see ourselves with victims. We're victims of austerity. We're victims of Brexit. We're victims of Trump. We're victims of globalization.

We're victims of capitalism. We're victims of the class structure. We're victims of ethnic structures. We're victims of... And I wondered what that means for people's way of looking at the world. And what's some of the problems of creating a culture of victimhood? Because I think in the end, populist politics is about the weaponization of a sense that you are a victim. Yes, that something has been done to you or something has been taken from you and that you don't have a voice.

The most successful, most impactful political slogan of the last 10 years, take back control, is about that lack of agency. So I agree with that. What's the downside? Well, the plus sides of that, of course, we would always encourage you to understand what you're feeling and what voice or what you're lacking in your life and to interrogate that. of course there's a downside to that which is if it serves to create resentment and resentment is quite core to contemporary culture isn't it huge yeah I know across the divide as well whether that's people from our community working class resentment or I know quite privileged educated people who still feel resentful for some reason that something is something is not right and that could be important Donald Trump feels profoundly resentful about life as a sociopathically childlike narcissistic way

he's like every day the most powerful man in the world is really angry that he's the most powerful mind of the world. It's infuriating, but it's, I would say this, wouldn't I? But I just think that's why for me, all of the platforms, all of the mechanisms we've been given to try and understand this feeling are algorithmically designed to create more of the same feeling. Social media. Exactly. Any of the forums that we... Why podcasts like this is so important?

Absolutely. Taking people beyond the binary. But it is also an act of, we, I can. can only really now think of drama and storytelling and theatre. And this is why I'm so relieved the news recently that arts are going back on the core curriculum as a way for a younger generation who will feel all of this resentment and all of this sense of powerlessness and a complete lack of hope or belief that tomorrow is going to be better than today.

So of course they're anxious and feeling upset and disenfranchised. There is just something about the power of storytelling, of framing something whereby the exercise is going cause and effect. Someone does something there is a consequence to this. Why do people do that? And what is the impact on that? I think it's literally about the only space where we even are encouraged to think like that anymore,

which is why the collapse of reading, the collapse of long-form narratives where you have to walk through someone's shoes. I really worry about that, but that's a very woolly way of going, more drama would solve the world. There's a stat here that I just wanted to bring in because it reinforces this point.

54% of the public say people like them are powerless to change things in Britain, rising to 74% of reform UK supporters. And so I think it was non-voters were 66%. So reform voters were even higher, feel even more powerless than non-voters. So I think that kind of like speaks to that kind of sense that people aren't feeling heard. People don't feel part of the disconversation. People's living standards are falling. People want to feel heard.

And yet the problem is the politicians themselves feel powerless. You know, they feel they're in a globalized world. They've got Trump. They've got the markets. I mean, we're almost setting ourselves up for failure. That, you know, we're all feeling we want to be heard, we want to have power. And some of those things, the whole structures, the modern world are not delivering for us. So all we deliver are parties that promise that we'll give you that, but can't actually do it.

Well, that comes back to even in the conservative time, what was Cameron's policy around like devolution and localized? Big society. Big society and all that kind of stuff. It's like leveling up and all that kind of stuff. that that's that that that is the kind of you know on the macro scale what we need it's you know that's what it doesn't happen and and and but it also comes to it's not everyone just diminishing their responsibility to feel more heard it's about you know rolling up your sleeves joining somewhere like the common ground justice project being part of the conversation

guys become a real media friendly and and but you know but but i had a post show to post show conversation we've had all these post shows that the last one we had was it takes a village to raise a child. And the question that we're asking to the audience was like, what can everyone do to feel more part of their community? The high streets are roading, the people aren't going to church anymore, the pubs are closing down. We've had endless conversations about this. Yeah, and they probably bought their tickets online, same as they brought everything else online. So we don't like, we don't like to confront our own responsibility for the world we're creating. We have politicians we can blame. We have immigrants we can blame. So what I've always loved

about what James does, is he always roots things in. kind of a sense of what others can do, what we can do ourselves. Can I finish? There's my final question, a slightly pretentious question. Oh, God, not another one. So you've said, you've come to the right place. I'm really excited. I'm glad you and I can do this stuff.

You set up narrative as something different from the short form stuff you see on social media. And what was really interesting is you were suggesting that a play is actually about agency. It's about people making choices and them having. consequences. It can be about forgiveness. It can be about redemption and hope, optimism. And somehow that isn't possible in a 30-second TikTok video. And I wish you could sort of explain that a little bit. What is it about social media that doesn't quite allow us that maybe reinforces a sense of victimhood and pessimism? The way we receive information now, particularly on social media, is when it's reactive, You have to, it's instant, rather than stepping back and thinking, which a play demands that you do

because you've been locked in a room and you feel ashamed about sneaking out, so you have to sit there and think about it. It's also the nature we receive information now in politics, and I have great sympathy for politicians in not being able to control this, is that it is relentless. So the information we receive is relentless, and the experience of receiving that, therefore, is that there is no meaning. There's no meaning to the universe, because it's constant. whereas what a narrative does and has for 3,000 years is demand that you stop, the information hitting you, step back, put it in a frame, quite an artificial frame,

because the universe is random and mean, but you go, okay, well, wait, beginning, middle and end, what started this, what does it feel like when it happened, and what do we do about it afterwards? To me, it's the equivalent of, like, what the Sunday newspapers used to do, the chaos of the world stops, you briefly sit down for a cup of tea,

and go, why do we do that? Why do human beings do that? That's really weird that we do that. How can we stop doing that? A narrative, probably artificially, maybe dangerously in a world of misinformation, I would say not. A narrative demands that we seek meaning,

possibly where there isn't. I think we need it more than ever. I mean, I think that's what's missing in a lot of our apologies. I mean, I think when people say storytelling, they think you mean making stuff up, telling stories. Or they mean you, don't they, in your former life.

They do sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Which actually I was all, I always saw it as narrative. Yeah. That's what, good communication is what you're trying to do with your, you know, you're telling a story about yourself that relates to a story about the country that you're trying to change in a certain way.

Yeah. Yeah. That's narrative. Exactly. I've heard you talk about Zat Polanski trying to do that. And, you know, other politicians are all trying to, you know, spin a narrative. It's just what narratives are bringing the country with us and which narratives are putting us against each other.

Yeah. Yeah. My very final question, James, you're the busiest playwright on the planet, right? Oh God, are you going to pitch me something? Well, you and I have been talking for several years now about the Good Friday Agreement. We have.

You told me it was a perfect drama. I still believe that. So this is just a message to all the effing commissioners out there. James wants to do a play about the Good Friday Agreement. If James wants to do a play, that's enough for you lot. Just get it done.

Thank you very much indeed. I wish it worked like that, but it doesn't, but thank you. And Jacob, thank you to you. I mean, we met, you badged me coming out of your play, coming out of the play. Do you see it as your play? No. No, you see it, James' play?

No, it's our play. It's your play. It's your game. It's the right. And you badgered me, and I could tell from that moment that you really want to change the world. I'm trying, but, you know, we can't do it alone. And I appreciate everyone that's coming with us on the journey. And appreciate James and yourselves for giving me, you know, a voice.

And in kind, I hope to give many other people a voice at the moment. that's victims' voices. And, yeah, if you want to find out more, go again, check out Commonwealth and join the conversation. And you're always very generous, Jacob, giving everyone else credit, but, you know, even David and Joan, your victims would credit you for the journey that you've been on

and how you're trying to use that for good. I think especially in a way, maybe even especially. Anyway, thank you both for coming out. No, thanks a lot. Thank you. Really appreciate. Well, I found that very moving. I mean, I've known James for a long time,

I think he's a great guy, an amazing playwright, And Jacob, I mean, he's a really impressive guy, Jacob. It's very impressive. One of the things that I felt watching the play, and I want to explore this as one of the most uncomfortable moments, is when Jacob, having been through this process of acknowledging what he's done, taken responsibility, and been forgiven by the victim's mother,

then goes out on the media. There's a media round. And he's confident and he's smiling. And there's part of you, at least in the audience. I know whether you felt that that feels, how can he be kind of smiling and confident when he did this? You know, you sort of want him to be crushed and broken by it. But of course, this is a story about forgiveness.

It's a story about hope. It's a story about somebody turning himself around. It's a story about somebody who acknowledges that he still feels incredible guilt. But has also learned that that's no reason why he can't communicate clearly, look people in the eyes, smile, be confident, be funny, be optimistic. and now have a family and kids and a life that he clearly sees us worth living. Look, I think the play is really brilliant. And I was, when he talked about forgiveness, it was interesting as well because, you know, my first novel, all in the mind, the final line is about a, I'll give the ending away,

it's about a psychiatrist who takes his own life. But the final line is a man who preach forgiveness but could never forgive himself. It's the very final line in the book. and I kind of had a real sense of that with and I think there's something in him that can't or doesn't want to go the whole way because he is now motivated to use what he did and then all that followed, particularly the forgiveness of him,

to make change. And I think he's a very, very powerful advocate. I get the sense that they both think they're slightly pushing a boulder uphill with the politics and the political debate the way that it is, but I wonder. I mean, it's an interesting question about guilt, isn't it? Because we're very much brought up to feel guilt is very bad.

But in a sense, it's also a sign of some of the positive bits of Jacob's character that he feels that sense of responsibility. And he wants to hold on to it. And he had an interesting point about the real litmus test being whether the guilt is so damaging that it's impeding the head of your life or whether you can, as he seems to be doing, holding onto it. Because I think he would probably feel that if he didn't hold on to it a little bit. he would no longer be fully taking responsibility for who he used to be. I think, I guess James, we've had a few cultural figures on leading, Anthony Gormley, was absolutely terrific. And I love talking to people about the creative process.

And we didn't really get into that with James. But what was really interesting watching James talk about it is how emotional he gets talking about something that he's been living with for years. He so gets into these characters and these themes. I think that's what makes him such a great playwright. My final kind of cod point is this point that when they were both at school, presumably it was Jacob, who was the larger than life charismatic school character. And James, he said it was figure skating or whatever. And one of the problems in modern society is that young men who maybe in other contexts kind of thrive.

I mean, if I think about a community in many parts of the world, I've been in Afghanistan, rural Zambia or something, often you do get the sense that if you're the kind of charismatic, energetic, thrill-seeking young man, you can really find a life for yourself. We've almost created a culture that favors very strongly. Graduates, people who do well at school, people who, and doesn't favor people like Jacob. And of course, what happens is when, if someone like Jacob is lucky enough to finally emerge from that, you can see all that charisma and that energy coming through, which makes them almost a kind of more compelling figure than somebody who's been through a more conventional life.

Yeah, but that also says that if you get somebody like that at a younger age and have the education and have the support and have all the second chances and all that stuff, then that's what I was interesting. It was actually quite optimistic the way he talked about his friends. I mean, okay, some dead, some jail. Not great. But actually, most of his friends have sort of ended up sorting themselves out. Anyway, if you haven't seen the play, if it's still on, you should.

And if you have, I hope you've enjoyed us talking about it. Thank you very much.